I know this is a slightly silly thread but I could use a bit of advice.
That fear of the 'Quick Match' button in Bronze keeps being re-enforced in this kind of unpleasant way. Literally every on of the last four games I've played on the ladder have devolved to smacking down someone who cheesed or some variety of super-dicey worker combat.
It's gotten to where I'm actually scared of pressing the Quick Match. The most common response is 'Cheese is part of the game. Learn to deal with it.' That's not an answer. That's someone stating something I already know and I know how to deal with cheese. It's simply a very rude and rather nasty way of playing the game which I am altogether hoping that Blizzard fixes.
I don't know. It's gotten to a place where I simply feel silly playing because I'm not improving. Do I have to just keep banging my head against the Bronze wall until I'm into Gold? It's a real grind.
Should I play peak hours to get some weaker opponents? Cheese until I'm out of Bronze? Wait on the obvious patches which will hopefully fix these kinds of things?
You say you know how to deal with cheese, then why are you afraid to play? And leaving bronze behind doesn't mean you'll never have to deal with it again, you can get proxy-rushed in diamond as well.
If it's a grind and you're scared to play, then just don't do it. Take a break or stop laddering alltogether if it's such an issue for you. Noone forces you to play.
i think the best way to get out of bronze is to learn how do deal with cheese (or just cheesing yourself untill your out of bronze but i dont recomment that)^^ if you want to play against non-cheese opponents play custom games or play against friends
and by the way: there are also a lot of high diamont players who cheese and im always happy to meet one of them, since they are easy points,since i know how to deal with them
Aside from the advice given, you just need to make sure you make friends with the people who do give you good games that way you can keep gaming them later!
The obvious answer are above; however, an alternative solution could be to find some practice partners and just play a lot of customs to improve. You could you the same practice partners to find out some solid openings that don't die to cheese easily so you can rank up out of Bronze.
If you care solely about improving your game, just find practice partners! ;-)
On December 23 2010 23:21 chessiecat wrote: It's simply a very rude and rather nasty way of playing the game which I am altogether hoping that Blizzard fixes.
And what would you suggest they do to fix it? Require 2 depots before barracks?
It sounds like you know how to beat cheese but just don't like facing it? In which case, it's a simple matter of beating every cheeser you encounter and moving up the ladder...
First of all, I don't think blizzard will do anything to fix all those nasty cheesy techniques, but it might even be better like that ^^ Personnally, I hate chesses. I'll tell you something: this days (i'm in silver), I face 2 kinds of people:
-Cheesers (about 50%). I usually lose to those. -Standard-players (the other 50%) which u enjoy playing with. I win 99% of those.
I've got platinum friends and I beat them all 3-0 mostly in best of three, but if i'm still in silver, it is because of those cheesy players (which I consider noobs because they are afraid to be facing someone better and try to end the game right away).
So, after a lot of thinking, i think that we standard-players (best matches lol) have to practice a lot against all kind of rushes to make them uselees, to bust down nasty cheesers.
Lately I've been breaking down most rushes (6pool, 8pool, voidrays...) but I still lack of defense against some nasty techniques.
Hope you will fight hard against it, good luck and keep playing no-cheese nice games ^^
Cheese becomes FUN to deal with when you get the micromanagement skills to deal with it safely, especially in lower leagues, I remember when I was in gold i'd laugh when I got cannon rushed and just use some nice micro, deal with it, and win.
The reason why you're in bronze league is because you're not skilled enough to be in silver, just work at it, the game can't hurt you, cheese is just another strategy. I wouldn't call it rude or nasty, I respect my oponents, if I 6 pool them, it's not my way of flipping them off, it's just a strategy that's a bit of a roll of the dice.
seriously, why would blizz "FIX" cheese? that's ridiculous. if you don't like laddering anymore, get yourself a practice partner in the bronze-gold area and mass game with him/her to actually get better. that's actually the better way to improve anyways.
You will never get rid of cheesy play. While you get higher, the cheesy play will be replaced by players who simply seem to overwhelm you with superior economy and units. I think there was already threads about how to deal withthis fear, but here goes anyway.. oh wait, first:
It's simply a very rude and rather nasty way of playing the game which I am altogether hoping that Blizzard fixes.
No it isn't. Why is it rude to attack at 3 minute mark instead of 7 minute mark? When is it "polite" to attack someone? Cheeses are not "rude". They are part of the game and Blizzard said that they want cheeses and rushes to be "shomewhat viable in order to keep the game exciting from the very first moments".
Anyway, about the fear of quick match button: It seems you are afraid of losing. Why? Losing is learning. After every loss go trough the replay and think to yourself what you should have done differently. If you can't think of what you could have done differently it is because of two reasons: 1)You are blind to your mistake 2)You have a misunderstanding of something. For example: I thought that photon cannons suck and should not be used. Oh boy I was wrong.
To me "tactic X is rude/unfair" or "things Y is imbalanced" are very dangerous thought patterns. They block you from improving "because you are doing everything right, it's that other things fault". No, it is your fault, you are doing something wrong and you should imprive.
No, cheese is not rude. Cheese is risky (for the cheeser), but not rude. Improve. Learn. Don't be afraid to lose, because they are chances to learn. Every loss you can solve brings you closer to a perfect game. You can't even imagine the joy when you finally, FINALLY solve the issue that has been bothering you for so long.
Well on the bright side facing a lot of cheesers will eventually make you play better under pressure and you'll be able to easier deal with other sorts of harassment that later on will inevitably come your way. Even though it's lame as hell to face proxygaters every second game it will profit you in the end. Other than that you'll unfortunately be forced to suck it up until you reach a level where cheese is more rare. Try to get some practice partners you can practice the later stages of the game with as well =) I'm sure you'll get out of bronze in no time, just play through the cheesers man!
You shouldn't do any risky buildorders and try to use some safer ones. If you're in the bronze league, you won't get much behind at all if you play a lil bit extra more defensive in the early early game
Maybe I am strange but I do enjoy playing against cheese (although I never cheese on the ladder). These are usualy the most exciting and challenging micro intensive games. Every little decision counts I can feel the adrenaline pumping . Sometimes I win and sometimes I lose. If I manage to win I am more happy than winning the standard mid/late game.
Maybe instead of thinkng about cheese as something noobish and bad try to find sometihing good about it.
I'm slightly afraid of the Quick Match button not because I'll lose or I'm afraid of learning, merely because I'm working long hours this month and I don't play well when I'm tired. I've no desire to play multi if I can't give my all. Last time I went laddering I played a mere two game. The first one I didn't get any early pressure and went two-port cloaked Banshee; destroyed his whole base because he was late on the OC and EB and I killed the EB just as it finished; with the OC he got off one scan which I evaded while decloaking to save energy then came back and murdered it.
Here's where I got stupid: he GG'd and typed "[NAME] has left the game" and I quit out, surprised but quite happy with a win then being very confused when I saw a loss on the score screen. Cue rage. I wouldn't have fallen for that if I'd had my wits about me. The second game I played I just... I was just dumb; I built gas too early, built my OC too late, made nothing but Mariners out of tech labbed Barracks' and didn't get stim or combat shield from the aforementioned tech labs. I rallied my guys to block his natural then knowing he had three sieged tanks I ran straight at his ramp with completely unupgraded and unsupported Mariners. The first Volley went off and I knew it was time to quit playing Multi because I wasn't going to learn anything just being dumb: I know I'm better than that and if my opponents don't have to try to win against me I won't learn from watching them either.
Learn how to properly identify and defend the following, and you will bounce out of bronze really fast;
vs Zerg; -5 Roach Rush and 7 Roach Rush (One base, pool then gass then roach warren - all scoutable) -Speedling Rush (One base, gas then pool - very scoutable) vs Teran; -Marine heavy push (Poke the front, you'll see lots of marines) -Marauder heavy push (Poke the front, you'll see lots of marauders) -Banshees (Poke the front, you'll see a bunker with little infantry units) vs Toss; -Cannon rush (Forge before gateway, pylon near your base) -Zealot rush (Saved chrono early on, two gates and no gas) -4 Gate (Stays on one base, chrono used on warpgate tech)
Every time you lose, you should immediately watch the replay and think to yourself: "next time that I see this, what should I do differently?" Come to a conclusion and then make sure to execute it when you see that cheese again. I often write a sentence or two about why I lost. Right before I play again the next day, I look at what I wrote about my last few games.
The worst thing that you can do after a loss is to blame it on "a noob cheesing" and immediately start another match.
There are already some good answers here but for my 2c:
Firstly, yes, cheese is a (legit) part of the game.
Second, yes, some people use cheese to climb the leagues cheaply. Whatever.
Third, cheese, definitionally, can be beaten. To do this you need two things. One, you need to have seen it. Two, you need to know what works against it.
You can actually learn these things. Unfortunately, watching pro games won't help you so much with this, because pros don't tend to cheese in bronze/silver level ways. But the fact remains, for every cheese, there is a (sometimes more than one) way of dealing with it. Some hurt more, some hurt less. But they all have effective counter strategies.
Being cheesed can hurt sometimes. Especially in the lower leagues where let's face it it can be pretty common some days.
But think of it as training. Every cheese play you face is a chance to practice your cheese management skills.
Cheese especially in z v z games used to really upset me. Then I got some ideas about how to handle it. Now, I won't say a pray for z cheese - but I do feel I know how to deal with it when I see it, and to be honest most of the time I can win against it now. I expect I will reach that point with the other races standard cheesy plays as well.
So don't give in just because you lose a game or two here or there to a sneaky play. Just think of each as a chance to improve your game.
The frustration is hard sometimes. But honestly, it's just a skill/experience thing. It really is. The more cheese you face, the more practice you get. Eventually you get the hang of it. Sure, any player, even a pro, can sometimes lose to cheese. It's no great thing. But mostly, as I say, once you've seen it enough times, it's not hard to defeat.
So just keep trying! Don't let one game dissuade you! Frankly half of sc2 is just resilience.
Winning against cheese is one of the best feelings in sc2 quick matches. I never ever want to see it removed because when you DO beat it (which wont be often at first, but the more you play the more you learn when it comes to anti-cheese.) you feel so good about yourself
Have to take this with a pinch of salt. Most cheese in bronze is executed so poorly anyway. I pushed with my first marauder from my tech lab, not to cheese or win, just to pressure a little and the guy lost to 1 marauder, called me a noob cheeser and left.
I have played close to 700 games before going from bronze to diamond protoss. Sometimes I'm a cheeser, sometimes I'm a macro player. Sometimes i'm pretty confident and very happy when I execute my builds and micro just as planned. Sometimes I just do it so wrong that I can loose to very underranked players. Even if I still don't consider me being a good player, I think I have a lot of experience of the game. And in truth, the losses are nothing as long as you want to progress and have a fun. And cheese is part of the fun, even if some people think it's not. I will soon buy a new account to start playing zerg (I promise I won't ever play terran, I just kinda hate then...), without any training before going to ladder. And Even if (or maybe, espacialy if) I'm placed in bronze league, I plan to enjoy it at it's best. I hope i'll also be a cheese/macro zerg player.
i get you man cheese is stressful to play against it, and even more to lose to it, and even more to see it at a high level at play, I'm at 1800 Platinum and I still get cannon rushed, and marine/SCV all in at 3-5 mins and at some times 6pool so yeah it doesn't only happen in bronze
Also consider that after a while, Quick Match games will not seem so scary. Admittedly since getting into Gold I've been worried of facing both cheesers and actually formidable opponents who know what they're doing. In reality though no one is much more ahead of me.
If you're worried about cheese just learn an anti-cheese opening. By Silver I had perfected the Protoss wall-in against 6pools. Before that I went Gateway-Forge instead of Gateway-Core because I knew Cannons and a wall were the best way to repel cheese. The problem with that is that I couldn't tech fast enough against non-cheesing opponents.
Learn also to scout for cheese like 6pools and Cannon Rushes. Cannon rushes are actually really easy to stop once you know how to beat them.
On December 23 2010 23:26 Plexa wrote: Aside from the advice given, you just need to make sure you make friends with the people who do give you good games that way you can keep gaming them later!
On December 24 2010 00:54 TheGiz wrote: Hate defeat, but never fear it
Also consider that after a while, Quick Match games will not seem so scary. Admittedly since getting into Gold I've been worried of facing both cheesers and actually formidable opponents who know what they're doing. In reality though no one is much more ahead of me.
If you're worried about cheese just learn an anti-cheese opening. By Silver I had perfected the Protoss wall-in against 6pools. Before that I went Gateway-Forge instead of Gateway-Core because I knew Cannons and a wall were the best way to repel cheese. The problem with that is that I couldn't tech fast enough against non-cheesing opponents.
Learn also to scout for cheese like 6pools and Cannon Rushes. Cannon rushes are actually really easy to stop once you know how to beat them.
I agree, if you know you can beat someone in a longer game, do something like Gateway-Forge. You really don't miss-out on that much tech. If I was a bronze player I would play counter-cheese builds every game, once the opponent is forced to expand to beat you, you win. Most Bronze player don't know how to get an expo up and if they do they rarely get good saturation.
In any case, I would scout after pylon in Bronze, and send your worker on a weird path to make sure you see any proxy gates or raxes.
Cheesing is the easiest loss to strategize for. Say you lose to cheese, after it is done, pull up the replay and think "what series of actions would have allowed me to hold this off." Then perform those actions as a rule. Once you do that, that particular cheese turns into a guaranteed win from then on. The cheeser's mechanics are never going to be better than yours.
It has gotten to the point that when I see that proxy pylon warping in I am happy, because it means 2 minutes from now I will win or at the very least, get into a macro game with someone who is way beneath me economically and mechanically.
Yes every now and then you'll lose (I lose to 1 out of 10 cheeses), but it probably just means you got a little slacky or greedy early on after stomping on cheese so thoroughly in the past. Make minor adjustments and then you are back on track.
Just remember every opponent is different. I'd say the majority of people do NOT cheese on a regular basis. Maybe in Bronze, but not as often the higher you get.
Just remember : every game, every opponent is different. Get cheesed last game? So what. You probably won't this game. Did it happen again? So what. Probably won't next game. Happen again?
See where I'm going with this?
It can be hard (and I too had a problem with it) but you just have to get it out of your mind.
I only read a couple comments quickly and it seems like no one really got the problem here. The guy isn't annoyed at cheese in general, nor does he have any problem dealing with it. It's just that basically, cheese game are not normal games (yes cheese is happening more and more but that doesn't mean that's what a normal game is, even if 100% of all games ever played are cheese, that's not the normal way). Dealing with cheese only result in a very, very, very bad game, yes you dealt with the cheese good, you did everything perfectly to repel it, and you won, good for you, the game still looks like absolute shit. Imagine a hockey game where all you have is 1 guy shooting the puck and hoping for a win. He scores, good for him, the game looks like shit. The goal stops the puck, good for him, the game still looks like shit. Does the team feel like it improved or got any better? no, will they feel better if they improve on their 1 puckshot stopping? it will get them further ahead but they'll still suck overall even if all they have to do is stop 1 puck.
I know some people will say "well if the game comes down to that, this is what you gotta do and this is what matters". Well you're wrong, people do it because it's cheap and this is internet, it's very well known now that the majority of players (in every game) prefer being cheap over playing the right way, as being cheap often gives you more chances of winning, instead of the the opposite like it should be. But I believe we all played enough online games to know that if a game becomes "too fair" it actually loses players, a lot of people will just get bored because they're simply unable to play fair (sometimes even in RL) and they'll end up playing something else where they can be cheap and get away with it. Cheese, cheap, and being mean in general on the internet is something A LOT of people are seriously attracted to, if not addicted to. Maybe it's in human nature and since they can't do it IRL, under the fear of getting punched in the face, they release it all on internet, and there's just nothing to punish their behavior.
TLDR: Cheese is a part of the game, but even if everybody learns to repel it, or even if the entire planet does it, it's still shit and against the nature of a well played match.
If you fear games because cheeses are a waste of time and you're trying to find a way around it, you're never gonna be able to. There's no way around it. If your bronze opponents are cheesing and still in bronze, that probably means they're not very good at cheesing. As you move up the rankings, you'll still see cheese. Maybe a bit less, maybe a bit more, I'm not really sure but it still exists, except now the cheeses are better executed. I've played against tons of 4 gate and haven't had too much problems with it, but when I played against a friend of mine, he went 10-0 against me because somehow my opponents on ladder were bad at chrono boosting and my friend's attack came earlier and I wasn't used to the timing. I'm at 1700 diamond atm, apparently there's a world of difference between a 1700 4gate and a good 4 gate (seriously how are 1700s failing at spending their first 5 chronos?)
On December 24 2010 01:17 mlbrandow wrote: A lot of what you consider cheese probably isn't.
Post a replay, as there are plenty of people willing to give you feedback.
Almost all the time, when I read about people being annoyed with cheese, this is what I'm thinking. I think at lower levels, there's a bigger blur between a well executed solid aggressive opening and cheese. One of the above posts was talking about 1 marauder pressure. A good player pressuring with the first two marauders can feel as powerful as a poorly executed 4 gate, so the player on the receiving end may believe a cleanly executed build is as cheesy as a bad 4 gate
Cheese will not get patched or fixed, it's quite a big part of the game and adds a lot of dynamic and strategies. The game simply would not be fun if you knew you weren't going to get attacked for the first 10 minutes.
Most, if not all the pro's accept cheese as a good thing for the game, even though I'm not a cheese player I totally agree, I love the unpredictability of games.
Also, fwiw, not to toot my own horn, but in this thread today I show as Terran that you can have a marine out 7 seconds earlier than the standard openers (great vs. 6 pool or cannon rush) without sacrificing any economy.
Or if you feel extra nervous, a 13OC build for terran (especially useful in big team games) will allow you to bunker a marine with a 2nd close behind by 2:55 game time, enough to beat every 6-pool rush distance and the fastest possible cannon times. This also sacrifices minimal economy.
why do you dislike cheese? its part of the game and keeps people honest. i don't know about you, but i did not enjoy playing games such as BGH fastest map ever NR 20 in broodwar.
Cheese is not rude. It's rather rude of you to insult all people who have cheesed by insinuating that they are rude for having done so. Your wish that Blizzard "fix" cheese is baseless and farfetched. Getting better at fending off cheese is improving. If you feel silly playing Starcraft, then maybe Starcraft isn't for you.
In my opinion, cheese is a great way to end the game quickly against inferior players.
Oh yes cheese is quite prevalent even high up (piqliq anyone? )and it's arguably worse since it's well executed and usually sneakier. Just build up your cheese spidey-senses.. you'll know it when you see it. Good scouting and solid macro will make you feel a lot more comfortable playing the game. Focus on that, you can't lose!
I had to grind bronze a long time, because I was new to the game. When I got to silver i switched to random and then zerg and inevitably fell back to bronze until i decided to switch back, which was a few weeks after. Now I'm in gold and still doing well at that level. You just have to grind it out. Macro up hard and you destroy bronze, just be ready for timing pushes. Cheese gets you every once in a while, but a lot less if you scout it. Scouting and macro are the 2 best things to get you legitimately out of bronze.
Being able to win vs cheese - which is most of the time just not dying- is a verry important skill to have, if you believe that you can handle it properly but you are still loosing a lot to it then...maybe you don't know how to handle cheese ?
Also a game that starts which cheese, goes on after you defended and taken sever losses are very good for your knowledge, you will end up in a very awkward spot when decision making takes all its sense.
I don't mind play against cheese, you have to show perfect micro at the begining of the game then good decision making. Of course it is very frustrating to loose against a canon rush or a 6pool and sometime i end up being bad manner but you actually learn a lot with cheesy games, you can pick up important timings (like when exactly should i start make my drone patroling at my ramp to prevent a pylon), perfect your micro and sometimes learn some things at decision making.
I'll cheese mirror matches just to end them, or if I'm bored and want to make serious ladderers QQ then I'll go on a proxygate rampage. Surprisingly, cheesing can help you a lot with things like micro/macro management... take for example the 3-rax allin, that helps a lot with preventing supply block and making units/workers constantly.
I had the same issue when I first started playing. I felt I was a better player than the opponent but would lose to cheese. Everyone loses to cheese now and again. So remember, it will always happen so don't let it bother you. I first tried to do builds that were very similar to cheese, so I had enough forces to deal with their attacks, but found that was a coin flip for me. I eventually transitioned to solid builds, keeping up on my scv production and macro, not getting supply blocked, and always getting those mules! Just by getting a smooth build and mule/scv production I found my armies were suddenly more than enough to deal with early pressure and cheese.
hmm.. i never got cheesed badly in bronze... most of the times someone tries to cheese he's usually failing hard, like trying to cannon rush but not properly walling off my choke -.-
if u feel bad when someone beats u in 4 minutes with cheese, wait until u see how bad you feel when someone beats u in an epic 40 minute macro game (grinding for 40 minutes only to lose).
On December 24 2010 04:59 Kalingingsong wrote: if u feel bad when someone beats u in 4 minutes with cheese, wait until u see how bad you feel when someone beats u in an epic 40 minute macro game (grinding for 40 minutes only to lose).
That doesn't really feel that bad? At least you know the other person was probably reasonably skilled, or they wouldn't have been able to outmacro/outplay you.
It's when you lose to noskill shit like a cannon rush that you want to rage. I have a friend who has been 3gate zealot rushing every game in his bronze league and doing quite well. I frown on it, since a 3gate warpgate push takes like 2 minutes longer to pull off and is far more respectable. But it works.... Hell at least he's not cannon rushing.
On December 24 2010 04:59 Kalingingsong wrote: if u feel bad when someone beats u in 4 minutes with cheese, wait until u see how bad you feel when someone beats u in an epic 40 minute macro game (grinding for 40 minutes only to lose).
but then you win those 40 minute games, and the person calls you bad/shitty at the end and then begs u for a rematch for an hour. thats the good stuff
You can't really "fix" cheese, you can only delay it. Ultimately the earliest viable attacks for each race will always be problematic to handle, whether it's 3 minutes into the game or 13.
Cheese is a challenge, and a beatable one. Every good game is supposed to have those.
I don't think cheese is the problem. You are probably just scared to ladder, and you just happen to mostly play against cheese, which makes it even more scary since you're on your toes every game.
A lot of players are afraid of laddering at first because StarCraft is a very difficult game and takes a long time to feel comfortable playing. There are already a lot of lengthy threads on this topic, just search for them. There is even a Liquipedia article about it: Dealing with anxiety.
Perhaps just practice a very safe opening for all matchups. If you keep playing you're pretty much guaranteed to get out of the bronze league. Just keep at it.
Stop being a scrub and start playing to win. Whatever you have to do to win within the confines of the game is acceptable. If that means 6 pooling, 4 gating, or something else that is fine; cheese strategies are just as justifiable as long-game macro strategies.
That doesn't really feel that bad? At least you know the other person was probably reasonably skilled, or they wouldn't have been able to outmacro/outplay you.
It's when you lose to noskill shit like a cannon rush that you want to rage. I have a friend who has been 3gate zealot rushing every game in his bronze league and doing quite well. I frown on it, since a 3gate warpgate push takes like 2 minutes longer to pull off and is far more respectable. But it works.... Hell at least he's not cannon rushing.
bottom line is this stuff works in bronze league.
hmm I'd say it's actually 2 different feelings. If one loses to cheese, one's pissed, but if one loses a 40 minute game, it just feels a bit depressing lol.
Everybody else has pretty much covered everything, but one thing that might help you in beating "cheese" would be to practice these cheese builds against AI yourself. That way you know more about what your opponent is thinking and doing when they cheese you. This also helps a lot in learning timings of other races.
On December 23 2010 23:21 chessiecat wrote: I know this is a slightly silly thread but I could use a bit of advice.
That fear of the 'Quick Match' button in Bronze keeps being re-enforced in this kind of unpleasant way. Literally every on of the last four games I've played on the ladder have devolved to smacking down someone who cheesed or some variety of super-dicey worker combat.
It's gotten to where I'm actually scared of pressing the Quick Match. The most common response is 'Cheese is part of the game. Learn to deal with it.' That's not an answer. That's someone stating something I already know and I know how to deal with cheese. It's simply a very rude and rather nasty way of playing the game which I am altogether hoping that Blizzard fixes.
I don't know. It's gotten to a place where I simply feel silly playing because I'm not improving. Do I have to just keep banging my head against the Bronze wall until I'm into Gold? It's a real grind.
Should I play peak hours to get some weaker opponents? Cheese until I'm out of Bronze? Wait on the obvious patches which will hopefully fix these kinds of things?
Calling it a rude tactic and wanting Blizzard to 'fix' it is a poor attitude. If you want to be like that just play customs with friends or people you met on BNet who didn't cheese you.
Cheese hurts man... I agree with OP. Cheese hurts...
for instance when you scout a random player last on Lost Temple and you see very few drones and a saucy looking spawn pool just sitting there and you think "OH SHIT GET MY FORGE WALL UP QUICKLY!" and then before you've even placed the cannon you see the zerglings moving up the ramp going "checheechehcehchece"
that hurts. I don't care who you are or what league you are in! It hurts because there is something fundamentally stupid about losing the game within the 4 minute mark that way. Despite cheese hurting though you have to play through the pain and hold yourself accountable for your mistakes. That is the only path to improvement.
I would much rather lose to a good player than to cheese, especially if I don't scout it in time, it makes me feel like shit because it could have been stopped so easily. Even worse is if you lose a few games to cheese, you get put against worse and worse players and get even more cheese.
The totality of what this game offers at the current point in time, is what we must try our best to be successful with. That's how I try to view it; yes, cheese can seem like an annoyance, but it is possible within the rules set by the game - so you simply have to live with it. It's got to be part of your skill set as a Starcraft 2 player; it happens in GSL, it happens in Bronze, Diamond and Silver alike.
Yes, personal preference may say that you dislike it, but to others, it is immensely fun. Practice how to overcome it and you will be a more complete Starcraft 2 player. Everybody always stresses that scouting is important. Why? Because it gives you insight as to what your opponent is doing, allowing you to better implement tactics that counters it. Should Blizzard change the possibility each race has to do drops, because some people don't like to defend against it, and see it as bad? Of course not!
To me, there is a problem with mounting some sort of high horse and bellowing out that cheese is a 'bad' way to play this game; map hacking is cheating, but playing a cheese strategy in the hope to win, is more or less just playing the game with a huge risk appetite. So let them; but you can't deny it as a part of the game because it is within the rules, and some players like to play Starcraft 2 this way. Just like some of us only rarely indulge in cheese (for my part, mostly because I don't like the risk profile), others do.
Of course, we should all utilize our consumer rights and suggest to Blizzard how we individually feel the game rules should be defined.
If your losing to cheese your micro, scouting and game knowledge is poor. Yes they cheese more in lower ranks, but that should only cause you to tighten up your builds.
If you lose to cheese you will lose even worse in a macro game where u are being harassed at every turn.
My advice, is fuck your ladder rank and record, just play hard over and over, otherwise you really wont get anywhere.
I strongly suggest you deal with cheese by knowing the ins and outs of exactly how to respond to stuff. If you are ever cheesed by X and don't know -exactly- how to counter X if you had perfect control stop and research. Hell write all solutions down on a notepad at your desk.
For the folks with friends in higher leagues that you womp in customs -- just ask them to cheese you for an hour or so so that you may practice against any certain cheese you feel you lack the control to counter -- but know the "correct" solution before practicing.
First off how is there a right way to play? How does that make any sense? Who set these manners that your opponent should follow? Second off cheese is a build order that wins because of the cheesy way it's executed. It's cheesy not dumb or broken. The cheese does not tell you anything about the executor of it. However if you beat it you know that you are better than that build. If you lose, the build is better than you. Third off you're in bronze. Don't judge other people on how they play. Don't make any claims as to what blizzard should fix. There's a reason you're in bronze. You don't know everything about the game. In fact I would argue you know barely anything. I'm a 2.2k diamond and I know far less than I need to in order to be considered any good Fourth off I have two accounts. One for cheese only. So suck it hahah
Bronze players that win 99% of the games they aren't cheese = Anything prior to them massing 18 Voids or 12 Battle Cruisers is cheese. Once they have those, it's game on!
There's all kinds of units and defensive structures you can use prior amassing air units. If you know you can win all long games in bronze, then why don't you bunker up and prove it. As pointed out earlier you can easily give up and economic advantage in Bronze for the first 10 minutes, and more than make up for it in the next 10, just make sure you don't die. It will slow down getting 18 VR though.
On December 23 2010 23:21 chessiecat wrote: I know this is a slightly silly thread but I could use a bit of advice.
That fear of the 'Quick Match' button in Bronze keeps being re-enforced in this kind of unpleasant way. Literally every on of the last four games I've played on the ladder have devolved to smacking down someone who cheesed or some variety of super-dicey worker combat.
It's gotten to where I'm actually scared of pressing the Quick Match. The most common response is 'Cheese is part of the game. Learn to deal with it.' That's not an answer. That's someone stating something I already know and I know how to deal with cheese. It's simply a very rude and rather nasty way of playing the game which I am altogether hoping that Blizzard fixes.
I don't know. It's gotten to a place where I simply feel silly playing because I'm not improving. Do I have to just keep banging my head against the Bronze wall until I'm into Gold? It's a real grind.
Should I play peak hours to get some weaker opponents? Cheese until I'm out of Bronze? Wait on the obvious patches which will hopefully fix these kinds of things?
Uh, well then up your skill level?
Up the ante bro!
If you're good enough to stop cheese then soon you'll get out of Bronze. People cheese in bronze cause they can't do anything else =P
All of the above (or at least the first few comments, which I've read lol) I agree with.
Sorry, but "Learn to fight cheese" is definitely an answer. It may not be an answer you like, but it's as simple as it gets.
Remember, things could be harder. Look at the bright side; you can prepare for all kinds of cheeses before hand because there aren't that many different kinds of cheeses really. In this manner, it is easy because you know what to expect in terms of cheese.
GL HF
Remember if you're not having fun, don't force yourself! It's all about fun .
Being new to the game, and Bronze ranked, I know exactly what you mean. I think a lot of Bronze players have realized that the easiest way to rack up the wins is Cheese of some kind. Whether it's a cannon rush, or a 6pool, I think a lot of Bronze players who lack good Macro/Micro skills find it easier to rush players who don't know how to counter it, rather than build up the skills to straight out beat their opponents.
However, I don't think it's the cheese that's putting you off. I think it's the fear of losing. I have this exact same problem. I find it hard to hit the "Find Match" button, because I'm worried of losing, and getting a really bad Win:Loss ratio. I've mostly gotten past this now. It's perfectly acceptable to lose a LOT of games. There are things that you really can't learn other than by just playing the game. And the ladder system is forgiving enough that even if you start with a massive loss streak, you can work your way up quite naturally once you get skilled.
Just keep playing, accept losses, and find your Chi. Cheese doesn't build up skill as much as losing to Cheese. People who cheese their way out of Bronze will plateau long before Plat/Diamond, so just be happy in the knowledge that even if you're not winning many games, you're making progress.
Tell yourself "I am going to play X amount of games today," and then do it. It seems like you know how to beat cheese from what you said, so I don't think that's really the issue.
Just think of it this way: to get to play real games you need to practice to beat cheese. The same as you need to do some push ups before they teach you judo. Hurry and get that done so you will be in plat to play some real game.
Are bronze/silver players that good at cheese? I watched some progames and I thought that pulling off some nice cheese require some skills. I was in bronze during the beta when cheese was not very popular I guess since I didn't face many of those.
i just had an insight comparing cheesing in sc2 to some other games:
i'm pretty sure someone here played mortal kombat and played against some abusing a**hole who would only do the sweep (back+low kick). this same guy played fox at SSBM abusing dash atack into upsmash. he was the jiraya doing anything but grab into rasengan on narultimate hero 3. the W+mouse1 pyro that kill you all the time on TF2. that fuc*er using SMG, sprinting into prone with second chance on CoD:BO. you lost several games to this bastard, but after some pratice, he would simply not stand a chance.
cheesing in SC2 is the same thing of abusing some poor strategy on any other game, that will work until you know how to play the game a little better. after a while, you will be so damn happy to see that stupid probe placing cannons in your base. "yay, free win".
PS: i'm talking about low leagues cheese, a well executed cheese is something completely different.
I started off in bronze in the beta, almost every other match was cheese. Bronze silver players are not that good when compared to the pros, cause you obviously have to micro a bit for example dont get your probe surrounded, 6 pool lings alive from workers etc. Heck on the sea server, around the gold league, every other game is a cheese fest. I came back to sea after playing fr a long time on the u.s server and it was quite shocking the amount of cheese.
But yeah, cheese happens at all levels, watch some featured streams on tl, and most of those people are high diamond/pros who cheese when they get bored. So you need to learn to beat cheese. But dont berate yourself if you lose a game to it, cause it can happen to anyone. NaDa lost to a 6 pool in the gsl
To be honest, I think it is very logical that there is a lot of cheese in the lower leagues. Pretty much everyone agrees that longer games are better for the better player. Well, if you're in bronze, chances are that you're a pretty terrible player, which skews the cost/benefit analysis towards cheese.
Besides if you're in bronze you're not going to learn anything from a 30 min+ game. You can't really judge if Unit X > Unit Y, or if FE > 1 base play in bronze, because low level games are won or lost so heavily based solely upon who can macro better. (and if that is what you want to improve, its better to play vs AI anyway) And its pointless to bother learning timings in bronze because chances are both you and your opponent have really poor execution.
Cheese is a trial by fire. If you're not good enough to survive the early game, why should you be entitled to the late game? If you just want an experience akin to "10 min no rush" then you should be looking at customs or coop.
On December 23 2010 23:33 Doctor Zoidberg wrote: First of all, I don't think blizzard will do anything to fix all those nasty cheesy techniques, but it might even be better like that ^^ Personnally, I hate chesses. I'll tell you something: this days (i'm in silver), I face 2 kinds of people:
-Cheesers (about 50%). I usually lose to those. -Standard-players (the other 50%) which u enjoy playing with. I win 99% of those.
I've got platinum friends and I beat them all 3-0 mostly in best of three, but if i'm still in silver, it is because of those cheesy players (which I consider noobs because they are afraid to be facing someone better and try to end the game right away).
So, after a lot of thinking, i think that we standard-players (best matches lol) have to practice a lot against all kind of rushes to make them uselees, to bust down nasty cheesers.
Lately I've been breaking down most rushes (6pool, 8pool, voidrays...) but I still lack of defense against some nasty techniques.
Hope you will fight hard against it, good luck and keep playing no-cheese nice games ^^
GL HF mate ^^
To be honest calling cheesing players noobs is kind of bad, i admit to raging like a retard when i lose to cheese but to be honest if you think about it cheesing is just as legit as playing a macro game since in the end you do what you need to do to win. Also to the op: you shouldn't be scared to play since it doesn't even matter as long as you get better, but if you're like me and emotionally commit to every game you play you can always find practice partners from the thread in the strategy section and play a lot of custom games.
game1: 2 proxy gates from a P inside my base (this is nasty man) game2: cannon rush comboed with zeal rush at the front game3: me cheesing opponent with 1 gate in my base 1 outside his base
Cheese is very often only due to bad scouting .... scout well and the cheese games will just turn into easy points in your favor (to get out of whatever league you are in)
People cheese because very often is a quick way to gain points
I just yesterday had somebody at rank 1 Platinum build THREE FRIGGING WARPGATES and 3 pylons right in front of my base. Like, IN FUCKING FRONT of it. Because of the way I happened to mis-time my build (missed my normal scout lings), I didn't notice in time and was roflstomped.
Cheese will never go away. If you lose to cheesing bronze players you are simply very, very bad and need to learn the game.
Actually, if your macro is that solid, playing 30-40 games using a "cheese" build will improve your micro a lot because "cheese" is actually very micro intensive. I went 2-27 when I got SC2 on release night, but then I proxy raxed like 30 games and the micro I learned from that actually carried me well into diamond after I learned to macro.
This weekend I was playing some of my brother's friends in bronze/silver and even though I couldn't literally have twice as many units even with perfect macro, I managed to 1v2 them because I would have more troops left after an engagement than both of them combined, allowing me to push. The MM micro for that started in bronze league doing proxy rax because I had a -25 win loss...
That said, there was one guy who 7 pooled every game in dreamhack and every GSL has someone who does it or proxies something etc. It will never go away even at the very top, they just get a lot better at it, sometimes with very good micro, and a solid defense to back it up if it fails. Baneling busts especially (if you consider them cheese) are almost a standard tactic.
Edit:
My last ladder game was TvP where P proxied 2 gates in my base. I ended up holding it off with marine ghost (no wall, I sim citied around my mineral line) turned around and pushed him, GG (the 2 other gates he had in his main couldn't reinforce in time. (People don't realize how hard it is to get Z's to hit the right things in a mineral line.)
I have fun defending cheese. When I wasn't good at it, it did frustrate me. Mostly cause I would have played a 30 min game and won,then I lose in 5 min to cheese. Once you can defend it, its actually fun.
Actually, if your macro is that solid, playing 30-40 games using a "cheese" build will improve your micro a lot because "cheese" is actually very micro intensive. I went 2-27 when I got SC2 on release night, but then I proxy raxed like 30 games and the micro I learned from that actually carried me well into diamond after I learned to macro.
Yes but generally defending cheese is also very micro intensive. So learning how to fend it off usually gives you the same skills.
You're not scared of cheese, you're just scared of playing. I've only played 11 games on the ladder over the course of like 6 weeks, and I'm 6-5. I lost most of my placement matches to cheesey stuff, and then my other two games after winning a few of my own and I just didn't want to play anymore. It had nothing to do with the calibre of players, I just absolutely hated losing. I hated going outside my base and seeing 5000 cannons and having no answer for it. For the better players who just say to scout etc, that's easy enough, but if you're stuck in Bronze league then these are the first games of your online experience, and you've probably not even got down the fundamentals yet because you're not able to actually play a full game of SC2 due to the cheese.
Anyway, I started playing custom games with my friend who's Platinum now and it's really upped my confidence. We've been playing since I stopped playing 1v1s, and although I never win because he's still so much better than me, I asked him to go each race and do the cheesey bullshit over and over again until I had an answer to every single one. Don't get me wrong; I'll still get cheesed every so often, but I feel so much more confident now. My first game back on the ladder for example, the guy tried to void ray rush me, so I just ran in the back door with some lings and destroyed his entire mineral line and started making hydras, so he just left. So if you have a friend you can be playing with to practice some of this stuff, I can guarantee you won't feel so nervous about playing 1v1s properly again.
Usually bronze cheese is very poorly executed and usually results in a free win or at least from my experience. I always hope a protoss cannon rushes me cause my opponents multitasking is always bad enough to where they actually go behind afterwards because they did not spend any of the time macroing.
Make sure you thumbs down steppes of war, delta quadrant and jungle basin. Should cut down on the cheesiness if you're not playing on maps that reward it so much. And also those maps are garbage and shouldn't exist (maybe delta could just be edited to suck less idk), so the more people who thumbs them down, the better. Blizzard has all the data on what gets thumbsed down so in theory they should be able to see that they need to take down the maps that nobody wants to play or that only terrans want to play.
Just keep on analyzing your replays and get really good with scouting (especially if you're zerg). Eventually you'll be so familiar with those cheeses that they become autowin for you if you know it's coming.
I started at silver and got promoted to gold after 80ish wins. Probably half of those wins were against your typical common cheesy all-in - proxy gates/barracks, cannon/void ray/banshee/muta rushes, and a few 6-10pools. I've lost my fair share against those, but after I figured out how to identify and react to it, I massed up quite a few wins in one saturday afternoon to get promoted!
You know when they say GLHF? The HF part really kicks in when you start winning against those cheeses!
I get a lot less cheese now that I'm playing gold and low-plat players, as it seems most of the guys in my skill level are now more interested in timing attacks and macro games. Hell, I recently had a ZvZ where we both opened 14Hatch! Good luck finding that in bronze and silver LOL!
On December 23 2010 23:26 Plexa wrote: Aside from the advice given, you just need to make sure you make friends with the people who do give you good games that way you can keep gaming them later!
That is really a great piece of advice there , if u had clan support u could actually make it into a clan by playing a great game with someone or get to know the person a bit . You can talk to him after u played a few games about stuff or maybe play some 2v2 's with him . It is important that u have some kind of friends in a game since without any in game friends I would feel verry isolated in the monstrosity called Battle.net 2.0 .
I was in bronze, it was full of cheese. The way i got out was by playing safe macro builds and then hit with a timing attack. For protoss i'd do 2 gate (12 and 14) and then expand once you have enough units out. (maybe around 25-30). For terran go 3 gate marine marauder then expand and bunker up until you get stim and concussive out. For zerg go 11 pool 18 hatch and build 2 spines right away, then build a production hatch and go for a timing attack.
Once you have a win rate of like 60% you will get out of bronze.
On December 29 2010 06:01 darmousseh wrote: I was in bronze, it was full of cheese. The way i got out was by playing safe macro builds and then hit with a timing attack. For protoss i'd do 2 gate (12 and 14) and then expand once you have enough units out. (maybe around 25-30). For terran go 3 gate marine marauder then expand and bunker up until you get stim and concussive out. For zerg go 11 pool 18 hatch and build 2 spines right away, then build a production hatch and go for a timing attack.
Once you have a win rate of like 60% you will get out of bronze.
I don't know if that advice is any good because those builds (if you get used to them) will start losing you a lot of macro games sooner or later. Personally I'd still advocate cheesing your way out of bronze asap, and force yourself to multitask by building your base/units and microing at the same time. Knowing how to do a really good bunker rush or 7 pool actually never hurts you because even in a pure macro game TvZ I will often bunker rush just to keep him from getting the early advantage. I've seen people who could 7 pool and break even most of the time while macroing up after throwing their opponent off their build order. Building 25 stalkers then expanding at 80-90 population just doesn't seem very useful for anything...
Always these foreigner with lactoseintolerance. Diying to all kind of cheese.
Tbh, just play and learn with the games. Its normal that you loose and that you will be cheesed in some games. Everyone does. If you just go on playing, have a solid macro you will easily go through bronze and silver league.
I don't think many people in this thread understand what Bronze league is really like. Literally every 2v2 against 2 Zergs, I can guarantee a double 6pool. I think when the OP says that he hopes Blizzard will "fix the cheese", he means that they will change something so that it doesn't happen so frequently. I mean, I can beat a worker rush no problem. It's just a waste of my time when I face it twice in a row from 2 different players.
On December 29 2010 07:56 BossPlaya wrote: I don't think many people in this thread understand what Bronze league is really like. Literally every 2v2 against 2 Zergs, I can guarantee a double 6pool. I think when the OP says that he hopes Blizzard will "fix the cheese", he means that they will change something so that it doesn't happen so frequently. I mean, I can beat a worker rush no problem. It's just a waste of my time when I face it twice in a row from 2 different players.
See, something in that statement just doesn't add up.
If you can beat 6 Pools and worker rushes consistently (which is a skill you do need to get out of bronze/silver), and if you are facing cheese consistently and beating it, and if your play is solid in longer, normal games when they do happen - doesn't that imply you're getting a lot of easy wins? If you did have such a high win ratio, you would have moved up in rank and leagues pretty quickly and thus not be in Bronze.
There is nothing Blizzard can do about it, nor is there a reason for them to do anything. It's just a challenge to beat, and we've all had to go through it at some point or the other. It's the second step in Starcraft (right after learning the basic mechanics and macro fundamentals), you can't possibly skip it or progress skill-wise as a player without overcoming that obstacle.
On December 23 2010 23:21 chessiecat wrote: I know this is a slightly silly thread but I could use a bit of advice.
That fear of the 'Quick Match' button in Bronze keeps being re-enforced in this kind of unpleasant way. Literally every on of the last four games I've played on the ladder have devolved to smacking down someone who cheesed or some variety of super-dicey worker combat.
It's gotten to where I'm actually scared of pressing the Quick Match. The most common response is 'Cheese is part of the game. Learn to deal with it.' That's not an answer. That's someone stating something I already know and I know how to deal with cheese. It's simply a very rude and rather nasty way of playing the game which I am altogether hoping that Blizzard fixes.
I don't know. It's gotten to a place where I simply feel silly playing because I'm not improving. Do I have to just keep banging my head against the Bronze wall until I'm into Gold? It's a real grind.
Should I play peak hours to get some weaker opponents? Cheese until I'm out of Bronze? Wait on the obvious patches which will hopefully fix these kinds of things?
If you were anywhere near half decent bronze cheese would feel like a joke.
Blizzard's not going to patch out rushes. Dustin Browder said they want them to be possible even though it makes new players unhappy and David Kim called them a core part of the game.
On December 29 2010 07:56 BossPlaya wrote: I don't think many people in this thread understand what Bronze league is really like. Literally every 2v2 against 2 Zergs, I can guarantee a double 6pool. I think when the OP says that he hopes Blizzard will "fix the cheese", he means that they will change something so that it doesn't happen so frequently. I mean, I can beat a worker rush no problem. It's just a waste of my time when I face it twice in a row from 2 different players.
See, something in that statement just doesn't add up.
If you can beat 6 Pools and worker rushes consistently (which is a skill you do need to get out of bronze/silver), and if you are facing cheese consistently and beating it, and if your play is solid in longer, normal games when they do happen - doesn't that imply you're getting a lot of easy wins? If you did have such a high win ratio, you would have moved up in rank and leagues pretty quickly and thus not be in Bronze.
I can beat 1 6pool but not 2 at the same time. Bronze Zergs really tend to just 6pool and that's it. I don't mean to complain, because it's more annoying than anything.
i thought i was stuck in bronze after 100 games and not moving up. I then started to really get my build orders down and remember to make scv's and supply depots. I can say that 3 rax is good for dealing with most stuff in bronze but you need to keep the pressure on them. if you fear cheese make them worry about their own base and forget about yours. i eventually got to like 100w-50l in bronze just by practicing build orders and make sure your opening is super crisp and top level. now i'm in gold and have gone 11-1 in last games. also bronze is a great place to practice different build orders you see at gsl and other tournaments but the most important things are your macro and crisp well timed out builds from bronze to gold. after you get a good build order you'll find that most cheese isn't enough to break you. you can bunker down or build up your ramp with 2-3 rax for baneling bust. also walling in is great in bronze and making sure no probes get into your base by putting an early scv at the ramp at 9 depending on map distance.
I dont think anyone from bronze league can cheese so it challenges a standard build order. Maybe you need to adapt if it is some proxy gateways or something. Workers > 6pool, 4 workers / cannon to kill the cannon rush.
Terran can't really cheese, maybe marine all in but at bronze it is so far into the game that a standard bo would own them.
Way back in the BETA, when I was in Copper(hahaha) I played a good match with someone. We put each other on our friends lists, and a day later I get a message:
"I cannot beat 6pool rush. How do you do it?"
I gave him my best advice, and then 6pooled him a few times. He won the third game, and never looked back at that kind of cheese. Now we're both diamond.
Blizzard's not going to patch out rushes. Dustin Browder said they want them to be possible even though it makes new players unhappy and David Kim called them a core part of the game.
Wow thanks for the link didn't know they had these online xD Should have known.
Also, although you are using very plain language, some people may think you are mocking them for not removing rushes xD. Damn, removing rushes... the game would definitely suck. All balance would be lost =O
Actually, I agree with Browder & Kim. I think rushes are integral to a game like Starcraft where you're balancing economy & military in real-time.
Not that I don't also like games where you just line up your armies and go at it. I used to play a lot of Total War. I quit because the multiplayer community is sparse.
The most annoying thing with cheese is when you beat it off, barely, and then continue to loose in the macro game. Thats just plain irritating. Once you survive a cheese you really feel that you have achieved something, but that only counts if you continue to win the game as a whole.
I never cheese but I kind of enjoy playing VS cheese, it becomes a diffrent kind of game.
Once i get a computer that will allow me to macro/micro effectively i will be hitting the Practice partner forum, in hopes of getting rid of that exact feeling.
On December 29 2010 19:47 s031720 wrote: The most annoying thing with cheese is when you beat it off, barely, and then continue to loose in the macro game. Thats just plain irritating. Once you survive a cheese you really feel that you have achieved something, but that only counts if you continue to win the game as a whole.
I never cheese but I kind of enjoy playing VS cheese, it becomes a diffrent kind of game.
well, not everyone who cheeses is a bad macro player. there are plenty of really good players who either cheese once in a while to keep up to date with their "cheesing-skills" or who cheese to maximize the points-per-ladder-session. in general, cheese can be considered a form of early game attack. if such an attack inflicts enough damage, then it will ofc allow the cheesing player to enter a longer macro game on even grounds although the cheese was held off.
To be blunt.. If you're afraid of cheese, you're never going to get better at this game. This kind of game is not going to hand you all the kind of match ups and strategies that you want to play against. If that's what you want, you had probably better just stick to playing the computer. Even if Blizzard fixes a lot of early cheese strategies (they won't) there will always be some form of cheese or all in play.
when i first started this game i played with friends in customs to practice since we all sucked. if you dont like cheese play with friends that dont cheese
Soon, the question will change from "will my opponent cheese?" to "Oh, Steppes of War v. Protoss? Hmm, I'd best scout my base for proxies"
You will hopefully build up intuition about when opponents cheese, in what positions cheese is favorable, what maps are more cheese-tastic, what are the tells that he's cheesing (for example, terran that doesnt take gas is highly suspicious), and roughly when the timings are. Without cheese, the game would be perhaps too predictable. You never want to be known as "the standard player".
Dunno how far we've gone from the original purpose of this thread...
I know what you mean, man. It's just cause this game is really hard, and it's almost like work. Not only that, the nature of the game makes you very anxious and kinda shoots your nerves because of how critical every little thing is. In my opinion, this is the sign of a GOOD GAME. I'm glad it's not like COD where you can just turn it on and get killed like 10 times in 2 minutes and just keep going. There's no significance to it.
Were you looking for some strategy advice, sir? Wrong forum.
Anyways, I have friends who refuse to play, and they blame it on many of the same things. They're afraid that everyone will cheese. If it affects you then, go play custom games or vs. AI. If you can just try and deal with it, realizing that the other person is not a pro, and is just as clueless as you are... You'll be just fine.
Placement matches got me to Gold League at start, and I was cheesed and 4gated down to Bronze. You'd expect to see cheese there a lot, but I didn't. My opponents were as slow scared of me as I was of them, and I mostly played defensive macro games, believe it or not. I still resort to macro games now that I somehow made it to Silver.
Having read multiple "I'm in Low League X, will the cheese ever stop?!" threads, I really don't know what to say... The thing is, the cheeses executed in bronze/silver/gold and even plat are usually so weak and have so many flaws that they can be easily defended by just playing standard and well... defending them.
So my advice would be to get yourself a standard BO for each matchup and practice that over and over again. As I understand it in Bronze League it's not even common to have a standard opening like 10 depot, 12 rax, 13 gas, 15 orbital, so you might want to work on that first. If you feel it's just completely impossible to stop a certain cheese with your usual opening you have to make minor adjustments. Maybe delay your gas on Steppes in favor of a quicker second supply depot if you KNOW a 6pool is coming at you. Just some simple examples, I don't even know if you're playing Terran... :>
Eventually you'll be happy when someone cheeses you because it's basically a free win.
Cheesing is more prevalent in lower leagues whilst not limited to them. Research, practice and most importantly - scouting; is all you need to overcome it.
You're not improving because you aren't proactively seeking out the flaws in your game-play and improving upon it.
If you're in Bronze for some time, either:
a) You don't know what a build order is. b) Your macro is horrendous. c) You have limited game sense. d) You don't scout. d) Combination of the above.
Watch the replays of your losses. Identify what you did wrong. Don't repeat the same mistake the next game. Of course, you can't fix bad macro in one game, but you need to start addressing your game flaws if you seek improvement.
EPT
that way you can keep gaming them later!
)and it's arguably worse since it's well executed and usually sneakier. Just build up your cheese spidey-senses.. you'll know it when you see it. Good scouting and solid macro will make you feel a lot more comfortable playing the game. Focus on that, you can't lose!
