The Fear Of Bronze. - Page 2

bearjuice

United States98 Posts

December 23 2010 15:06 GMT

#21

Winning against cheese is one of the best feelings in sc2 quick matches. I never ever want to see it removed because when you DO beat it (which wont be often at first, but the more you play the more you learn when it comes to anti-cheese.) you feel so good about yourself

Tevinhead

United Kingdom470 Posts

December 23 2010 15:14 GMT

#22

Have to take this with a pinch of salt. Most cheese in bronze is executed so poorly anyway. I pushed with my first marauder from my tech lab, not to cheese or win, just to pressure a little and the guy lost to 1 marauder, called me a noob cheeser and left.

MegaPerle

France53 Posts

December 23 2010 15:38 GMT

#23

I have played close to 700 games before going from bronze to diamond protoss.
Sometimes I'm a cheeser, sometimes I'm a macro player. Sometimes i'm pretty confident and very happy when I execute my builds and micro just as planned. Sometimes I just do it so wrong that I can loose to very underranked players.
Even if I still don't consider me being a good player, I think I have a lot of experience of the game. And in truth, the losses are nothing as long as you want to progress and have a fun. And cheese is part of the fun, even if some people think it's not.
I will soon buy a new account to start playing zerg (I promise I won't ever play terran, I just kinda hate then...), without any training before going to ladder. And Even if (or maybe, espacialy if) I'm placed in bronze league, I plan to enjoy it at it's best. I hope i'll also be a cheese/macro zerg player.

TemplarCo.

Mexico2870 Posts

December 23 2010 15:40 GMT

#24

i get you man cheese is stressful to play against it, and even more to lose to it, and even more to see it at a high level at play, I'm at 1800 Platinum and I still get cannon rushed, and marine/SCV all in at 3-5 mins and at some times 6pool so yeah it doesn't only happen in bronze

TheGiz

Canada708 Posts

December 23 2010 15:54 GMT

#25

Hate defeat, but never fear it

Also consider that after a while, Quick Match games will not seem so scary. Admittedly since getting into Gold I've been worried of facing both cheesers and actually formidable opponents who know what they're doing. In reality though no one is much more ahead of me.

If you're worried about cheese just learn an anti-cheese opening. By Silver I had perfected the Protoss wall-in against 6pools. Before that I went Gateway-Forge instead of Gateway-Core because I knew Cannons and a wall were the best way to repel cheese. The problem with that is that I couldn't tech fast enough against non-cheesing opponents.

Learn also to scout for cheese like 6pools and Cannon Rushes. Cannon rushes are actually really easy to stop once you know how to beat them.

DennyR

Germany379 Posts

December 23 2010 15:57 GMT

#26

On December 23 2010 23:26 Plexa wrote:
Aside from the advice given, you just need to make sure you make friends with the people who do give you good games

that way you can keep gaming them later!

this... or wait for chatchannels

Spec

Taiwan931 Posts

December 23 2010 16:02 GMT

#27

I will be your friend! :D Spec.906

Rakanishu2

United States475 Posts

December 23 2010 16:04 GMT

#28

On December 24 2010 00:54 TheGiz wrote:
Hate defeat, but never fear it

Also consider that after a while, Quick Match games will not seem so scary. Admittedly since getting into Gold I've been worried of facing both cheesers and actually formidable opponents who know what they're doing. In reality though no one is much more ahead of me.

If you're worried about cheese just learn an anti-cheese opening. By Silver I had perfected the Protoss wall-in against 6pools. Before that I went Gateway-Forge instead of Gateway-Core because I knew Cannons and a wall were the best way to repel cheese. The problem with that is that I couldn't tech fast enough against non-cheesing opponents.

Learn also to scout for cheese like 6pools and Cannon Rushes. Cannon rushes are actually really easy to stop once you know how to beat them.

I agree, if you know you can beat someone in a longer game, do something like Gateway-Forge. You really don't miss-out on that much tech. If I was a bronze player I would play counter-cheese builds every game, once the opponent is forced to expand to beat you, you win. Most Bronze player don't know how to get an expo up and if they do they rarely get good saturation.

In any case, I would scout after pylon in Bronze, and send your worker on a weird path to make sure you see any proxy gates or raxes.

onmach

United States1241 Posts

December 23 2010 16:04 GMT

#29

Cheesing is the easiest loss to strategize for. Say you lose to cheese, after it is done, pull up the replay and think "what series of actions would have allowed me to hold this off." Then perform those actions as a rule. Once you do that, that particular cheese turns into a guaranteed win from then on. The cheeser's mechanics are never going to be better than yours.

It has gotten to the point that when I see that proxy pylon warping in I am happy, because it means 2 minutes from now I will win or at the very least, get into a macro game with someone who is way beneath me economically and mechanically.

Yes every now and then you'll lose (I lose to 1 out of 10 cheeses), but it probably just means you got a little slacky or greedy early on after stomping on cheese so thoroughly in the past. Make minor adjustments and then you are back on track.

dotZero

United States66 Posts

December 23 2010 16:08 GMT

#30

Just remember every opponent is different. I'd say the majority of people do NOT cheese on a regular basis. Maybe in Bronze, but not as often the higher you get.

Just remember : every game, every opponent is different. Get cheesed last game? So what. You probably won't this game. Did it happen again? So what. Probably won't next game. Happen again?

See where I'm going with this?

It can be hard (and I too had a problem with it) but you just have to get it out of your mind.

michaelhasanalias

Korea (South)1231 Posts

December 23 2010 16:17 GMT

#31

A lot of what you consider cheese probably isn't.

Post a replay, as there are plenty of people willing to give you feedback.

Faze.

Canada285 Posts

December 23 2010 16:26 GMT

#32

I only read a couple comments quickly and it seems like no one really got the problem here. The guy isn't annoyed at cheese in general, nor does he have any problem dealing with it. It's just that basically, cheese game are not normal games (yes cheese is happening more and more but that doesn't mean that's what a normal game is, even if 100% of all games ever played are cheese, that's not the normal way). Dealing with cheese only result in a very, very, very bad game, yes you dealt with the cheese good, you did everything perfectly to repel it, and you won, good for you, the game still looks like absolute shit. Imagine a hockey game where all you have is 1 guy shooting the puck and hoping for a win. He scores, good for him, the game looks like shit. The goal stops the puck, good for him, the game still looks like shit. Does the team feel like it improved or got any better? no, will they feel better if they improve on their 1 puckshot stopping? it will get them further ahead but they'll still suck overall even if all they have to do is stop 1 puck.

I know some people will say "well if the game comes down to that, this is what you gotta do and this is what matters".
Well you're wrong, people do it because it's cheap and this is internet, it's very well known now that the majority of players (in every game) prefer being cheap over playing the right way, as being cheap often gives you more chances of winning, instead of the the opposite like it should be. But I believe we all played enough online games to know that if a game becomes "too fair" it actually loses players, a lot of people will just get bored because they're simply unable to play fair (sometimes even in RL) and they'll end up playing something else where they can be cheap and get away with it. Cheese, cheap, and being mean in general on the internet is something A LOT of people are seriously attracted to, if not addicted to. Maybe it's in human nature and since they can't do it IRL, under the fear of getting punched in the face, they release it all on internet, and there's just nothing to punish their behavior.

TLDR: Cheese is a part of the game, but even if everybody learns to repel it, or even if the entire planet does it, it's still shit and against the nature of a well played match.

Purind

Canada3562 Posts

December 23 2010 16:41 GMT

#33

If you fear games because cheeses are a waste of time and you're trying to find a way around it, you're never gonna be able to. There's no way around it. If your bronze opponents are cheesing and still in bronze, that probably means they're not very good at cheesing. As you move up the rankings, you'll still see cheese. Maybe a bit less, maybe a bit more, I'm not really sure but it still exists, except now the cheeses are better executed. I've played against tons of 4 gate and haven't had too much problems with it, but when I played against a friend of mine, he went 10-0 against me because somehow my opponents on ladder were bad at chrono boosting and my friend's attack came earlier and I wasn't used to the timing. I'm at 1700 diamond atm, apparently there's a world of difference between a 1700 4gate and a good 4 gate (seriously how are 1700s failing at spending their first 5 chronos?)

On December 24 2010 01:17 mlbrandow wrote:
A lot of what you consider cheese probably isn't.

Post a replay, as there are plenty of people willing to give you feedback.

Almost all the time, when I read about people being annoyed with cheese, this is what I'm thinking. I think at lower levels, there's a bigger blur between a well executed solid aggressive opening and cheese. One of the above posts was talking about 1 marauder pressure. A good player pressuring with the first two marauders can feel as powerful as a poorly executed 4 gate, so the player on the receiving end may believe a cleanly executed build is as cheesy as a bad 4 gate

Boxxer

83 Posts

December 23 2010 16:43 GMT

#34

Cheese will not get patched or fixed, it's quite a big part of the game and adds a lot of dynamic and strategies. The game simply would not be fun if you knew you weren't going to get attacked for the first 10 minutes.

Most, if not all the pro's accept cheese as a good thing for the game, even though I'm not a cheese player I totally agree, I love the unpredictability of games.

michaelhasanalias

Korea (South)1231 Posts

December 23 2010 17:17 GMT

#35

Also, fwiw, not to toot my own horn, but in this thread today I show as Terran that you can have a marine out 7 seconds earlier than the standard openers (great vs. 6 pool or cannon rush) without sacrificing any economy.

Or if you feel extra nervous, a 13OC build for terran (especially useful in big team games) will allow you to bunker a marine with a 2nd close behind by 2:55 game time, enough to beat every 6-pool rush distance and the fastest possible cannon times. This also sacrifices minimal economy.

fishjie

United States1519 Posts

December 23 2010 17:21 GMT

#36

why do you dislike cheese? its part of the game and keeps people honest. i don't know about you, but i did not enjoy playing games such as BGH fastest map ever NR 20 in broodwar.

Enervate

United States1769 Posts

December 23 2010 17:53 GMT

#37

Cheese is not rude. It's rather rude of you to insult all people who have cheesed by insinuating that they are rude for having done so. Your wish that Blizzard "fix" cheese is baseless and farfetched. Getting better at fending off cheese is improving. If you feel silly playing Starcraft, then maybe Starcraft isn't for you.

In my opinion, cheese is a great way to end the game quickly against inferior players.

d_wAy

United States104 Posts

December 23 2010 18:02 GMT

#38

Oh yes cheese is quite prevalent even high up (piqliq anyone?

)and it's arguably worse since it's well executed and usually sneakier. Just build up your cheese spidey-senses.. you'll know it when you see it. Good scouting and solid macro will make you feel a lot more comfortable playing the game. Focus on that, you can't lose!