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On December 14 2010 03:39 30to1 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2010 03:33 Savant wrote:
I feel forced to go bio every game against protoss, and once I get it going it's nearly impossible to transition out even well after it becomes ineffective. Tech all-ins aside, fast barracks and with upgrades is the most stable way to fend off early aggression and maintain map presence to stop protoss from mass expanding early on. But once you get 3 or 4 barracks with requisite upgrades that's it- you're basically locked into that composition because you've sunk all you resources into upgrading and maintaining your bio army. Transitioning to mech midgame means adding factories and upgrading from scratch. It leaves a massive window where you die if protoss just a-moves you with his colossi, and even if you do manage to field a relevant mech army he'll already have expanded twice and fielded the counter.
Forgive me if this is stupid I don't play much terran - but considering the add ons from rax are transferable to factory - shouldn't a mech transition be sort of painless? 3 rax is a 450 minerals total. Why would a mech transition be really hard here - except having to build 2 factories?
Once you lift the barracks are a total loss, as well as all the cash you shelled out for tech lab and ebay upgrades. plus you're not producing any units for a full minute waiting for the factories, and afterwards you'll be producing 0 upgrade tank/thor in sets of 2 or 3. If you can manage to pull that off and live either you've either already won the game or the protoss is doing something wrong.
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On December 14 2010 03:57 Savant wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2010 03:39 30to1 wrote:On December 14 2010 03:33 Savant wrote:
I feel forced to go bio every game against protoss, and once I get it going it's nearly impossible to transition out even well after it becomes ineffective. Tech all-ins aside, fast barracks and with upgrades is the most stable way to fend off early aggression and maintain map presence to stop protoss from mass expanding early on. But once you get 3 or 4 barracks with requisite upgrades that's it- you're basically locked into that composition because you've sunk all you resources into upgrading and maintaining your bio army. Transitioning to mech midgame means adding factories and upgrading from scratch. It leaves a massive window where you die if protoss just a-moves you with his colossi, and even if you do manage to field a relevant mech army he'll already have expanded twice and fielded the counter.
Forgive me if this is stupid I don't play much terran - but considering the add ons from rax are transferable to factory - shouldn't a mech transition be sort of painless? 3 rax is a 450 minerals total. Why would a mech transition be really hard here - except having to build 2 factories? Once you lift the barracks are a total loss, as well as all the cash you shelled out for tech lab and ebay upgrades. plus you're not producing any units for a full minute waiting for the factories, and afterwards you'll be producing 0 upgrade tank/thor in sets of 2 or 3. If you can manage to pull that off and live either you've either already won the game or the protoss is doing something wrong.
so if you can build 2 factories and switch the techlab/reactor from 2 rax to 2 factories you've already won or the protoss sucks? ..... that sounds sketchy to me.
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On December 14 2010 03:45 Wrongspeedy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2010 23:24 4Servy wrote:
once protoss has the amulet its gg, its ridic how imba that upgrade is my dog can win with protoss after they got the amulet. 1120 Damage vs 14 Stalkers with 1 emp 1150 Damage vs 23 zealots with 1 emp. 700 to 7 Colossus 1100 to 11 Immortals Not to mention units clump under colossus, similar to air units. And Emp is a much faster tech than storm. A perfectly placed storm on 80 clumped marines on hold postion will kill 23 marines, inflicting 1035 damage. 960 to 12 Marauders standing still 22 Ghosts for 1750 damage.... (that made me laugh) So maybe once you get emp, you should hand your keyboard to your dog, let him do his thing. And yes I know emp will never kill my units, but its an advantage nonetheless and it has more front end damage than storm (which can't be stacked). Good yes, Imba... Probably not.
I don't know about the guys dog but what you are missing is what happens right after the battle. Even if the Terran gets great emp's off and wins the fight, the protoss then just warps in a round of templar and storms the leftovers to death. As a T late game you don't just have to win the fight, you have to win the fight with enough health left over to not die to the next 5 storms that are coming. You won't have emp energy left and your medivacs will be drained as well. The ease with which a protoss can reinforce means that a Terran cannot win a close battle. A close win late game is a loss.
For people saying the Terran needs to get out of bio, get out of bio and go into what exactly? Tanks aren't the worst unit in the world in the matchup, but you can't have an army of just tanks. Furthermore the toss already has the counter, charge-lots. You cant easily transition from bio to mech because mech does not work in small numbers. Without warpgates you cannot just bust out with tanks, thors, hellions and ghosts. It takes a long time for a Terran army to build. As a protoss all you have to do is trade armies with a Terran in the late game and you are winning (assuming you have equal eco's). If I played Toss I would simply play it like a zerg, just work on holding and making counter attacks if the T moves out. All you need to do is survive into the late game, then you win.
A matchup should not depend on being ahead going into the late game, and it shouldn't depend on a ton of drop harass. If the Protoss is playing well you won't be able to do any damage with your drops because he will see them and warp in appropriate units.
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On December 14 2010 03:57 Savant wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2010 03:39 30to1 wrote:On December 14 2010 03:33 Savant wrote:
I feel forced to go bio every game against protoss, and once I get it going it's nearly impossible to transition out even well after it becomes ineffective. Tech all-ins aside, fast barracks and with upgrades is the most stable way to fend off early aggression and maintain map presence to stop protoss from mass expanding early on. But once you get 3 or 4 barracks with requisite upgrades that's it- you're basically locked into that composition because you've sunk all you resources into upgrading and maintaining your bio army. Transitioning to mech midgame means adding factories and upgrading from scratch. It leaves a massive window where you die if protoss just a-moves you with his colossi, and even if you do manage to field a relevant mech army he'll already have expanded twice and fielded the counter.
Forgive me if this is stupid I don't play much terran - but considering the add ons from rax are transferable to factory - shouldn't a mech transition be sort of painless? 3 rax is a 450 minerals total. Why would a mech transition be really hard here - except having to build 2 factories? Once you lift the barracks are a total loss, as well as all the cash you shelled out for tech lab and ebay upgrades. plus you're not producing any units for a full minute waiting for the factories, and afterwards you'll be producing 0 upgrade tank/thor in sets of 2 or 3. If you can manage to pull that off and live either you've either already won the game or the protoss is doing something wrong.
Yeah if you make nothing but mech units, you will lose. I kinda thought most people have figured that one out by now.
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On December 14 2010 03:52 Offhand wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2010 03:25 donkkk wrote:On December 14 2010 03:23 Offhand wrote: On December 14 2010 03:21 donkkk wrote:On December 14 2010 03:15 Offhand wrote:
Tanks are viable in TvP, no matter how much you whine the core fact unit isn't useless and forces a response from the protoss player in some way.
See: Mana v Naama DH finals. Nony would disagree with you Replays would be nice. read his post history hes anti fan of tank build and criticized MaNas DH play, he says that chargelots +colo eat this alive OK so you don't really have any ground to stand on because a build like that obviously gets crushed by vikings but please continue asserting that pro players said something and it is gospel as a result.
i take his words over yours any day, besides its not like hes theorycrafting he even casted cup where capoach almost beat sjow with that combination of units, main battle was a massacre of sjows army but he managed to pull ahead thx to unnoticed drop in capoach's natural which killed all of his probes.
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+ Show Spoiler +On December 14 2010 03:57 Savant wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2010 03:39 30to1 wrote:On December 14 2010 03:33 Savant wrote:
I feel forced to go bio every game against protoss, and once I get it going it's nearly impossible to transition out even well after it becomes ineffective. Tech all-ins aside, fast barracks and with upgrades is the most stable way to fend off early aggression and maintain map presence to stop protoss from mass expanding early on. But once you get 3 or 4 barracks with requisite upgrades that's it- you're basically locked into that composition because you've sunk all you resources into upgrading and maintaining your bio army. Transitioning to mech midgame means adding factories and upgrading from scratch. It leaves a massive window where you die if protoss just a-moves you with his colossi, and even if you do manage to field a relevant mech army he'll already have expanded twice and fielded the counter.
Forgive me if this is stupid I don't play much terran - but considering the add ons from rax are transferable to factory - shouldn't a mech transition be sort of painless? 3 rax is a 450 minerals total. Why would a mech transition be really hard here - except having to build 2 factories? Once you lift the barracks are a total loss, as well as all the cash you shelled out for tech lab and ebay upgrades. plus you're not producing any units for a full minute waiting for the factories, and afterwards you'll be producing 0 upgrade tank/thor in sets of 2 or 3. If you can manage to pull that off and live either you've either already won the game or the protoss is doing something wrong.
Produce the factories then lift? Anyways, mocking aside, I think his point may have been that tech switching for T might be slighty easier than for a P player. And of course if we could make more than just workers from our Cc's and Nexi, then we could tech switch like a mad mad madfrog! A protoss player who is forced to switch from Robo to Stargate (or the other way around) might actually be forced to stop producing from one. 3 rax isn't any more of a commitment than 3 warp-gates, which is pretty much a necessity to survive.
Edit: Endbringer The game should not rely on whether I place a ff right the first 7 mins of a game either, but it does. I like your post, but understand that everyone loses half their games, and they all get frustrated too. Its not as simple as a P player mimicking a turtle till he has HT then army swapping armies. Good unit spread and a good mix of Bio/Mech/ and Starport units will always counter HT just as much has HT counters Bio. I think another issue could be the fact that the # of Ghosts you get in a game can severely set you back, whereas there quickly becomes a point once HT come out where you can easily spend all your gas on HT's.
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On December 14 2010 04:01 donkkk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2010 03:52 Offhand wrote:On December 14 2010 03:25 donkkk wrote:On December 14 2010 03:23 Offhand wrote: On December 14 2010 03:21 donkkk wrote:On December 14 2010 03:15 Offhand wrote:
Tanks are viable in TvP, no matter how much you whine the core fact unit isn't useless and forces a response from the protoss player in some way.
See: Mana v Naama DH finals. Nony would disagree with you Replays would be nice. read his post history hes anti fan of tank build and criticized MaNas DH play, he says that chargelots +colo eat this alive OK so you don't really have any ground to stand on because a build like that obviously gets crushed by vikings but please continue asserting that pro players said something and it is gospel as a result. i take his words over yours any day, besides its not like hes theorycrafting he even casted cup where capoach almost beat sjow with that combination of units, main battle was a massacre of sjows army but he managed to pull ahead thx to unnoticed drop in capoach's natural which killed all of his probes.
So do you have a replay? Because I can't wait to watch it and point out the obvious as to why that's not the reason Sjow lost the fight.
+ Show Spoiler +Actually, you know what? Fuck it, you don't have any reasons. And you refuse to listen to anything that might run contrary to your pre-established beliefs. This is why the SC2 strat subforum is retarded.
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On December 14 2010 04:03 Wrongspeedy wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 14 2010 03:57 Savant wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2010 03:39 30to1 wrote:On December 14 2010 03:33 Savant wrote:
I feel forced to go bio every game against protoss, and once I get it going it's nearly impossible to transition out even well after it becomes ineffective. Tech all-ins aside, fast barracks and with upgrades is the most stable way to fend off early aggression and maintain map presence to stop protoss from mass expanding early on. But once you get 3 or 4 barracks with requisite upgrades that's it- you're basically locked into that composition because you've sunk all you resources into upgrading and maintaining your bio army. Transitioning to mech midgame means adding factories and upgrading from scratch. It leaves a massive window where you die if protoss just a-moves you with his colossi, and even if you do manage to field a relevant mech army he'll already have expanded twice and fielded the counter.
Forgive me if this is stupid I don't play much terran - but considering the add ons from rax are transferable to factory - shouldn't a mech transition be sort of painless? 3 rax is a 450 minerals total. Why would a mech transition be really hard here - except having to build 2 factories? Once you lift the barracks are a total loss, as well as all the cash you shelled out for tech lab and ebay upgrades. plus you're not producing any units for a full minute waiting for the factories, and afterwards you'll be producing 0 upgrade tank/thor in sets of 2 or 3. If you can manage to pull that off and live either you've either already won the game or the protoss is doing something wrong. Produce the factories then lift? Anyways, mocking aside, I think his point may have been that tech switching for T might be slighty easier than for a P player. And of course if we could make more than just workers from our Cc's and Nexi, then we could tech switch like a mad mad madfrog! A protoss player who is forced to switch from Robo to Stargate (or the other way around) might actually be forced to stop producing from one. 3 rax isn't any more of a commitment than 3 warp-gates, which is pretty much a necessity to survive.
I don't think tech switching is easier for a Terran. It seems pretty equal for both races. If we want mech units we have to make another building. If you want templar from your warpgates you gotta build another building. If you want collosi you have to build a support bay, if we want thors we have to build an armory. You could argue, I guess, that we would get the armory anyway for vehicle upgrades and you wont get a support bay if you don't go collosi. The counter to that arguement is most of your units come from warpgates, so if you make 10 warpgates, those are useful if you are going stalker-zealot, dts, etc. T cannot build 10 rax and then make 10 tanks at a time. I think that part of the game is pretty balanced between Toss and Terran.
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Eh its a little different Endbringer. You have to get a Factory to get a starport. I don't have to get a robo to get a stargate. So lets say I open robo and a T player goes banshee. Great I have obs and I can shoot up. Then if he follows that up with more starports, more banshees, ravens, and vikings; And then I don't get a stargate. P will lose that every time, they can snipe your detection and no # stalkers will beat cloaked banshees coming from 2-3 starports constantly. Thats a very specific late game example, but its just to show that there are times when a Protoss is forced to switch tech, and a building *will* become absolutely useless for at least a while cause you simply don't have the resources to do that and produce enough units to survive.
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I'm not saying terran tech switching is game breakingly imba or some shit. But because you can swap add ons - it should be easier for terran to tech switch than protoss...seems pretty simple to me. Terran tech switching to mech can make use of the add ons they put on rax earlier then use them on factories or starports later.
zerg is most flexible, then terran, then protoss in terms of costs related to switching tech. I would think thats an advantage in TvP -- in other words if P makes a tech switch it should be more cost effective for T to respond.
It's sort of balanced by who can force a tech switch.
Early game, terran MM ball forces colo or templar - there is really no other response.
Once toss gets color or templar then terran must be responsive with either valks or ghost.
terran has a huge advantage early game because it can both tech switch more cost effectively -and- force responses. Late game, toss gains initiative and terran must be reactive.
edit: the other huge constrictor in TvP is the banshee. This option absolutely demands robo early. Toss really has no option in TvP except for gateways into robo because they need the detection possibility for transition from rax into starport swapping lab.
thats why 90% of tvp follows the same pattern -
defensive protoss vs bio ball into robo for detection then naturally colo cuz you've half teched there.
terran responds with valk, toss transitions into templar, terran transitions into ghost
game ends up being these two dominating abilities (emp vs storm) - the player who abuses their op ability more wins all else equal
edit 2: I really think TvP is a sort of broken match - not that its necessarily imbalanced, but it tends to cause one sided games one way or the other - and the tech decisions are really forced for both sides. Although PTR 1.2 might change it a bit with phoenix play opening up a bit giving toss some earlier initiative.
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Fair enough, seems like semantics though. I think there are problems with the matchup at high levels of play, but tech switching isn't one of them.
In midgame I can see how you would have idle buildings if you had to throw out a bunch of pheonix or voidrays. This is true for T as well of course, you cannot mass marauders and tanks with medivacs on 4 gas. In fact if you are going heavy marauder you often cannot even support 1 reactored starport making constant medivacs. None of this applies to this post of course, because I believe it was dealing with late game situations, and there I think we can safely assume its 3 or more bases. At that point I think either race can switch to whatever unit combination he/she wants. Its not going to be the tech switch thats the issue, its going to be what units and how fast a player can mass those units.
To sum up that paragraph. I acquiesce to your superior protoss knowledge in specifics on tech switching being harder than I made it out to be for protoss. I still believe its even between terran and protoss. I will have to come up with better examples next time ;D
Edit2!! - It does suck that a Toss has to have perfect FF micro early game which I feel is more difficult than stutter-stepping marauders. Blizzard needs to come up with some way to buff late game terran and somehow also nerf them early game. I would love to be able to macro against a toss and feel confident in my ability to win after the first templar. I understand your pain.
Edit - I believe the Test realm build will make the matchup even worse for Terran. The protoss will be less restrained with their opening build while the terran stays the same. This will make early game a bit easier for protoss, and thats probably a good thing. The next time a terran gets a good timing is with a polt timing push, this patch will make that a lot easier for the protoss to hold off. Pheonix were the counter to that, and with them being cheaper and faster, along with safer and cheaper detection, the protoss should have an easier time with this. In addition the thor scv broken push is fixed. In the late game the protoss will still be better because this part of the matchup has not changed.
Yes you can share addons, but again, the slow build time for units means that you cannot mass them quickly, and the protoss can just kill you in the 5 minutes it takes to mass a completely different tech tree.
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2000 Terran here I think TvP late game is really hard for the terran side.Even in GSL everybody does this allins because terran players are like : "oh shit i need to win early game with my MM,svc ball because late game is broken" and some minutes after that we see a 1base all in or 2 base timing push and protoss players knows that too so they only need to survive the early game and they will be fine or they can choose to do their 1base all in or 2base timing push and then you will see some exciting games.Even if you go back in the days NEXGenius vs Loner Blizzcon final that Xel'Naga game where both players stood in the middle of the map and change armies Loner goes with his bioball Genius has 10-12zealots and 5HT and storms it this shows how dumb the TvP is Loner has a godlike macro and still after every fight he only comes even food when he attacked with more forces. There are a lot of builds flying around like that Scandinavian build that every Finland,Sweden terran will do with the tanks but i think it completely fails vs zealot+hts or qxc,select drop play (is more a strategy then a build) is a double edge knife because of the medivac nerf.So basically what i am trying to say is that if you want to win a TvP you need good mechanics micro,macro and multitask. Try to get 1 rax expand every game and do drops multiply attacks at once macro your heart out and pray to lady lucky to smile upon you.
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On December 14 2010 04:19 Wrongspeedy wrote:
Eh its a little different Endbringer. You have to get a Factory to get a starport. I don't have to get a robo to get a stargate. So lets say I open robo and a T player goes banshee. Great I have obs and I can shoot up. Then if he follows that up with more starports, more banshees, ravens, and vikings; And then I don't get a stargate. P will lose that every time, they can snipe your detection and no # stalkers will beat cloaked banshees coming from 2-3 starports constantly. Thats a very specific late game example, but its just to show that there are times when a Protoss is forced to switch tech, and a building *will* become absolutely useless for at least a while cause you simply don't have the resources to do that and produce enough units to survive.
Terran has an advantage because Factory is a requirement for the Starport whilst the Stargate can be built without Robo? Lol ...
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I think the best way, how to play this matchup is biomech aka MMM + Tanks/Raven..
The good old MMM + Vikings is so predictible and so boring..
If I dont get Vikings in time I lose.
If I do get Vikings in time but in wrong numbers I lose.
If I do get Vikings in time in right numbers, theres this endless kiting between Stalkers and Protoss eventually makes it to HTs and I lose..
With addition of Tanks I use my factory for something more useful then floating it over P base to see that he is of course making collosi..
Raven is invaluable later when you can shut down observers and so you wont get caught out of posistion. Not to mention that well placed PDD can win you whole fight.
But the basic idea is, that I can play with this composition from start to end and I dont feel this "Oh shit he has DTs Im dead"..
But it seems like there are way better players here contributing, so take my words easy.
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I don't think tech switching is the problem, I'm not even sure that HTs are the problem although I definitely think its ridiculous that you can win a battle with like 20 (albeit injured) units left, move in to take out the expansion, and like 3 zealots and 2 HTs just warped in kill your entire army.
The problem IMO is forcefield. Protoss have gotten better and better at using this spell, and now with examples like MC v Jinro for all the protoss to copy its really getting out of hand, and if you havn't seen evidence of this your not playing at a high level.
Forcefield allows a protoss to defend and tech easily against aggression. Some protoss on this thread say, well we have to be able to forcefield well so its fair...but really, how hard is it to put a forcefield in the middle of your ramp? This puts them at an advantage if you try to punish them for teching because you are now behind on vikings when they get one immortal they are able to easily take their expansion as you are forced to reduce pressure to expand since you can't get up the ramp.
So just play more reactively you say? Well, Forcefield also allows the protoss to really punish any similar attempt at a quick expansion, EVEN if you build bunkers because thanks again to MC, now all the protoss know how to really make bunkers ineffective and defending a position with less or equal units basically impossible. I basically never feel safe to 1rax FE anymore whereas protoss get away with a 1gateway FE all the time no problem.
In the field forcefield just makes it so easy for a gateway army to crush a bioball even without things they used to need like zealot charge. Granted you have to be competent at trapping half or more of the bio army against your zealots, but it seems most protoss can do this these days and when this happens it is OVER. So now the protoss say, oh well you just need ghosts to emp those sentries! But good protoss will split up their sentries and a ghost is a serious investment early in the game usually good for only one emp, this really screws you over if the protoss goes for fast collosus instead of sentry heavy as your not going to have enough vikings to deal with it. Also he advantage of an early emp used to be taking out a huge chunk of the protoss hp but now we have to use it on the sentries instead just so we can kite zealots, protoss will simply lose a few zealots and disengage (remember this is with no sentry splitting and a good emp).
Anyway this matchup is seriously broken and my worst by far at 2400+, I hate that the only strategy I can employ is a 1base all in with mass air/ground and its obvious from the number of TvP help threads popping up from 23-400+ diamond players that there is something wrong. Its telling that most of the PvT help threads are mostly from low diamond and lower leagues where early bio pressure is still a problem because those protoss are not proficient with forcefield. The funny thing is, there are always plenty of answers to these protoss problems from more experienced protoss players, but the only answer to the T problems come from platinum league players in their infinite wisdom or P players, most other T players just say, well you have to outplay them or just do the timing attack.
Protoss typically respond that T do manage to win alot of the time, but if you took away the 1base thor/poltesque timing attacks, I guarantee the win ratio becomes ridiculous P favored. This is not balance.
Before you respond with L2P. You might notice that pre roach buff T used to all also say that Z just needed to L2P which I think was at to some degree partially correct, the meta game did evolve, but obviously the roach buff also helped deal with some of the major issues at the time such as mass reapers and early hellion harass which I think drastically effected the matchup more then you might imagine.
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On December 14 2010 04:19 Wrongspeedy wrote:
Eh its a little different Endbringer. You have to get a Factory to get a starport. I don't have to get a robo to get a stargate. So lets say I open robo and a T player goes banshee. Great I have obs and I can shoot up. Then if he follows that up with more starports, more banshees, ravens, and vikings; And then I don't get a stargate. P will lose that every time, they can snipe your detection and no # stalkers will beat cloaked banshees coming from 2-3 starports constantly. Thats a very specific late game example, but its just to show that there are times when a Protoss is forced to switch tech, and a building *will* become absolutely useless for at least a while cause you simply don't have the resources to do that and produce enough units to survive.
Are you serious with this or are you ironic? Your post reads like:
- Terran has to get a factory for starports.
- Protoss can build robo/stargate without further requirements.
-->insert weird argumentation here--<
Conclusion: Terran tech tree is superiour and stronger lategame.
I mean, sure, Protoss has to tech switch if they went robo first and want to have a stargate. But they dont have to. As Terran you HAVE to get the factory, no matter if you need it or not.
Every Protoss player who thinks that the factory->starport thingy is better could build a stargate everytime they build a robo. (Or a robo everytime they get a stargate, as factories are basically useless in tvp while both stargate and robo are actually useful).
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On December 14 2010 04:36 Saechiis wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2010 04:19 Wrongspeedy wrote:
Eh its a little different Endbringer. You have to get a Factory to get a starport. I don't have to get a robo to get a stargate. So lets say I open robo and a T player goes banshee. Great I have obs and I can shoot up. Then if he follows that up with more starports, more banshees, ravens, and vikings; And then I don't get a stargate. P will lose that every time, they can snipe your detection and no # stalkers will beat cloaked banshees coming from 2-3 starports constantly. Thats a very specific late game example, but its just to show that there are times when a Protoss is forced to switch tech, and a building *will* become absolutely useless for at least a while cause you simply don't have the resources to do that and produce enough units to survive. Terran has an advantage because Factory is a requirement for the Starport whilst the Stargate can be built without Robo? Lol ...
Yup thats what I said. Have you ever played Protoss? Maybe I was just pointing out that Protoss doesn't have a tech tree while Terran clearly does. Maybe I was pointing out that if I get a stargate and not a robo, in many situations that puts me at a severe disadvantage (similar to templar tech). Maybe I was pointing out that if you have a starport out and you are forced to tech switch to mech, you already have a factory. I never said one was better than the other, just pointed out they are a lot different than some of you think.
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On December 14 2010 04:49 Wrongspeedy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2010 04:36 Saechiis wrote:On December 14 2010 04:19 Wrongspeedy wrote:
Eh its a little different Endbringer. You have to get a Factory to get a starport. I don't have to get a robo to get a stargate. So lets say I open robo and a T player goes banshee. Great I have obs and I can shoot up. Then if he follows that up with more starports, more banshees, ravens, and vikings; And then I don't get a stargate. P will lose that every time, they can snipe your detection and no # stalkers will beat cloaked banshees coming from 2-3 starports constantly. Thats a very specific late game example, but its just to show that there are times when a Protoss is forced to switch tech, and a building *will* become absolutely useless for at least a while cause you simply don't have the resources to do that and produce enough units to survive. Terran has an advantage because Factory is a requirement for the Starport whilst the Stargate can be built without Robo? Lol ... Yup thats what I said. Have you ever played Protoss? Maybe I was just pointing out that Protoss doesn't have a tech tree while Terran clearly does. Maybe I was pointing out that if I get a stargate and not a robo, in many situations that puts me at a severe disadvantage (similar to templar tech). Maybe I was pointing out that if you have a starport out and you are forced to tech switch to mech, you already have a factory. I never said one was better than the other, just pointed out they are a lot different than some of you think.
Yes, I play Protoss from time to time, I'm pretty sure they have a tech tree.
Terran never needs to tech switch to Mech because it's bad against Protoss. In fact, most Terrans would gladly skip that Factory if they could.
Next time just pretend Robo is a requirement for Stargate so you'll never be at a disadvantage. Or just don't post arguments that don't lead anywhere.
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On December 14 2010 04:46 Grummler wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2010 04:19 Wrongspeedy wrote:
Eh its a little different Endbringer. You have to get a Factory to get a starport. I don't have to get a robo to get a stargate. So lets say I open robo and a T player goes banshee. Great I have obs and I can shoot up. Then if he follows that up with more starports, more banshees, ravens, and vikings; And then I don't get a stargate. P will lose that every time, they can snipe your detection and no # stalkers will beat cloaked banshees coming from 2-3 starports constantly. Thats a very specific late game example, but its just to show that there are times when a Protoss is forced to switch tech, and a building *will* become absolutely useless for at least a while cause you simply don't have the resources to do that and produce enough units to survive. Are you serious with this or are you ironic? Your post reads like: - Terran has to get a factory for starports. - Protoss can build robo/stargate without further requirements. -->insert weird argumentation here--< Conclusion: Terran tech tree is superiour and stronger lategame. I mean, sure, Protoss has to tech switch if they went robo first and want to have a stargate. But they dont have to. As Terran you HAVE to get the factory, no matter if you need it or not. Every Protoss player who thinks that the factory->starport thingy is better could build a stargate everytime they build a robo. (Or a robo everytime they get a stargate, as factories are basically useless in tvp while both stargate and robo are actually useful).
factories are useless? Or you are useless with factories? I dunno, what to say. I don't think this matchup is horribly imbalanced and I probably feel like zvp and maybe the mirror's need more work than anything. Nothing I have to write will change anyone T's mind who thinks P is op, but maybe you should try playing protoss; Build 1 gateway, then 1 robo, then 1 stargate off, 1 base and live. I will try it ,cause honestly I don't? But I'm not gonna sit here and say your race is op and there is nothing I can do about it.
edit: argument that leads nowhere = factories are useless vs P.
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Can you guys get off the stupid factory thing, its distracting from more valid points, thanks.
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EPT
