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@Offhand - we get it, you think terrans just need to L2P, state your ranking and show a replay of yourself losing to EMP using HT's please, I'm sure there are many protoss who could give you a few hints on how to improve. There are a million posts on emp vs templar and why its not as effective vs protoss who don't keep all their HT in a giant ball/how protoss can just fall back to their nearest proxy pylon with 4 new HTs all ready to storm. Meanwhile all the other HTs can become archons which are hardly useless as you earlier implied - they are very strong meatshields and do alot of damage in situations in which kiting is not possible.
@30-1 - I don't have a replay right now of that exact situation, but the reason that bioballs beat gateway units is that they can kite the zealots to death and then marauders are very strong against stalkers. The key unit is the zealot, zealots are light, have more hitpoints, (armor kicks in more) and do more damage to marines and equal damage to mauarders as stalkers, however generally they don't get to engage in the early game because of concussive shells. However when a zealot heavy army is able to engage because of a forcefield trap, that army can beat a bio army due to the frailness of marines and marauders being not that strong against zealots, so when the zealots are actually able to engage the gateway army > bio army, this is why if you try to do a big marauder rush at the start of the game a good protoss responds with sentry/zealot, lets you up the ramp and then crushes you. You need more marines against the zealots, but with lots of sentries... lack of kiting and guardian shield makes marines very underpowered especially with the 1base armor of zealots.
Basically it evolves into a micro battle, which I actually find very enjoyable and fairly balanced in itself (when forcefields are used well) that is to say that equal forces will usually do well against each other in the field. Except for the fact that it inevitably leads to the late game or completely undermines my defensive positions.
Furthermore I don't think that EMP usage has as much to evolve as forcefields, frankly the usage has evolved from targetting the biggest group of units to targeting the sentries and I don't think there is much more use to be had out of them, there is no more effective usage then this, only an increase in the number of ghosts which really cuts into your ability to tech/upgrade. Think about it this way, 2 ghosts takes up 1.5minutes worth of gas off 2 geysers. Collosus are usually out between 10-15minutes. And if your going bio heavy you probably don't have 2 geysers until at earliest 5 minutes.
Edit: Hellions cannot be added to this composition without godlike micro which I do not have, I have tried this before, it requires you to stutter step and avoid storms with your bio, while simultaneously microing your hellions around to snipe the HTs. And if your too slow, you lose your army before you snipe the HTs. This just doenst work for me. The only thing you can try to do is sniper with hellions before you engage, but this generally results in you losing alot of hellions and not getting all the HTs and your main army is weakned by the loss of like 800 minerals worth of hellions.
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On December 14 2010 05:30 Scare_Crow wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2010 05:26 Offhand wrote:
Why is it that every argument about protoss units being too good always comes with the assumption that we have infinite gas? This discussion is concerning late-game Protoss, and focuses on how Terran cannot let Protoss take his 3rd. If Protoss has a 3rd, that's 6 geysers, which means, yeah, you're gonna be rolling in Gas. And it's not as if you need 28 Templars or something to decimate a bioball. 4-5 good Storms will do that, and that's 3 fully charged Templars, or 5 just warped. That's... 600 gas in total, which a single Geyser can get in you about 2 minutes.
I think you should read up on units costs and such before making these conclusions. HTs are 50/150 for starters.
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On December 14 2010 05:32 30to1 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2010 05:21 Scare_Crow wrote:On December 14 2010 05:09 30to1 wrote:On December 14 2010 04:45 statikg wrote:
I don't think tech switching is the problem, I'm not even sure that HTs are the problem although I definitely think its ridiculous that you can win a battle with like 20 (albeit injured) units left, move in to take out the expansion, and like 3 zealots and 2 HTs just warped in kill your entire army.
The problem IMO is forcefield. Protoss have gotten better and better at using this spell, and now with examples like MC v Jinro for all the protoss to copy its really getting out of hand, and if you havn't seen evidence of this your not playing at a high level.
Forcefield allows a protoss to defend and tech easily against aggression. Some protoss on this thread say, well we have to be able to forcefield well so its fair...but really, how hard is it to put a forcefield in the middle of your ramp? This puts them at an advantage if you try to punish them for teching because you are now behind on vikings when they get one immortal they are able to easily take their expansion as you are forced to reduce pressure to expand since you can't get up the ramp.
So just play more reactively you say? Well, Forcefield also allows the protoss to really punish any similar attempt at a quick expansion, EVEN if you build bunkers because thanks again to MC, now all the protoss know how to really make bunkers ineffective and defending a position with less or equal units basically impossible. I basically never feel safe to 1rax FE anymore whereas protoss get away with a 1gateway FE all the time no problem.
In the field forcefield just makes it so easy for a gateway army to crush a bioball even without things they used to need like zealot charge. Granted you have to be competent at trapping half or more of the bio army against your zealots, but it seems most protoss can do this these days and when this happens it is OVER. So now the protoss say, oh well you just need ghosts to emp those sentries! But good protoss will split up their sentries and a ghost is a serious investment early in the game usually good for only one emp, this really screws you over if the protoss goes for fast collosus instead of sentry heavy as your not going to have enough vikings to deal with it. Also he advantage of an early emp used to be taking out a huge chunk of the protoss hp but now we have to use it on the sentries instead just so we can kite zealots, protoss will simply lose a few zealots and disengage (remember this is with no sentry splitting and a good emp).
Anyway this matchup is seriously broken and my worst by far at 2400+, I hate that the only strategy I can employ is a 1base all in with mass air/ground and its obvious from the number of TvP help threads popping up from 23-400+ diamond players that there is something wrong. Its telling that most of the PvT help threads are mostly from low diamond and lower leagues where early bio pressure is still a problem because those protoss are not proficient with forcefield. The funny thing is, there are always plenty of answers to these protoss problems from more experienced protoss players, but the only answer to the T problems come from platinum league players in their infinite wisdom or P players, most other T players just say, well you have to outplay them or just do the timing attack.
Protoss typically respond that T do manage to win alot of the time, but if you took away the 1base thor/poltesque timing attacks, I guarantee the win ratio becomes ridiculous P favored. This is not balance.
Before you respond with L2P. You might notice that pre roach buff T used to all also say that Z just needed to L2P which I think was at to some degree partially correct, the meta game did evolve, but obviously the roach buff also helped deal with some of the major issues at the time such as mass reapers and early hellion harass which I think drastically effected the matchup more then you might imagine.
Thats a really good post with good points. I think you're probably exaggerating it a bit, but there is probably a lot of truth there. Questions: In the field forcefield just makes it so easy for a gateway army to crush a bioball even without things they used to need like zealot charge. Granted you have to be competent at trapping half or more of the bio army against your zealots Honestly, I've never seen this occur at anywhere near cost equality without colo or templar. Do you have links to this - because I think you're exaggerating. Maybe I'm too weak a player but bioball is so incredibly effective at dealing with gateway. So now the protoss say, oh well you just need ghosts to emp those sentries! But good protoss will split up their sentries and a ghost is a serious investment early in the game usually good for only one emp, this really screws you over if the protoss goes for fast collosus instead of sentry heavy as your not going to have enough vikings to deal with it. Also he advantage of an early emp used to be taking out a huge chunk of the protoss hp but now we have to use it on the sentries instead just so we can kite zealots, protoss will simply lose a few zealots and disengage (remember this is with no sentry splitting and a good emp). Do you think its possible that as toss have gotten better with FF - terran needs to get better with EMP? You say that FF usage has just recently hit a sort of tipping point - do you think that terrans have really mastered the use of ghosts both early and late - or is that still in the works? Sorry to answer someone else's questions, but just wanted to throw in my 2 cents. I have personally been crushed by Gateway armies that use FF well. I was 3 Rax-ing and they were 3 Gating, so it's not that I got out-massed, but for example, in Lost Temple, FF just makes it impossible for Terran to successfully fight anywhere but in the center. If I fight at the choke just past my natural, they can cut my army with ~4 FFs, and then just shoot things down with Stalkers. If I engage AT my natural, they can stop reinforcements with 1 FF on the ramp, and a wall of 2-3 starting from the cliff edge close to my ramp will force my army to run around to a new concave. If I fight anywhere but exactly the middle, they can FF along the walls that shield the Xel'Naga Towers to restrict army movement, and if I fight on the Gold expansion area I am beyond screwed. As to the EMP- I don't think it's that reasonable a counter for 3 reasons: 1. Ghosts are really expensive. Having them to counter Sentries is just not economically viable, especially since you have to keep up with your Marauder count to fight Stalkers, since for the price of one Ghost Academy and one Ghost, you can get 3 extra Sentries, and if those Sentries are not currently locking lips my one Ghost cannot stop all 3. 2. Ghosts need to get their EMPs off before the fight begins, Protoss does not. EMP on a spent Sentry or HT is pointless, so my Ghosts must get into position faster. Cloaking helps, but that's another 150/150, and one forward scouting Observer and one Observer with the main army will spot the Ghosts very quickly (and since Ravens are not common at all, I'd have to blow an EMP or Scan on the Observer). 3. Feedback outranges EMP. For a Ghost to EMP he MUST have 100 energy (oh, right, to whoever said that Ghosts can EMP out the Rax, I think you're wrong), which means that any time he is spotted a HT can just one-shot him and still have energy leftover for Storm. Since Ghosts generally try to get their EMPs before a fight starts (and are pretty easy to spot due to having energy bars), they're also very vulnerable to the units they're supposed to counter. I don't really want to just argue random bullshit opinions - I'm honestly curious about this match (not saying your opinion is bs, but most forum msgs are). As for the 3 gate > 3 rax I don't mean to be offensive, but I would really like to see some replays or videos. I've just really never seen roughly cost equal armies here end up with P ahead using pure gateway (after armies hit like 20+ supply). Getting tech support is so critical for P since bioball scales DPS so effectively vs gateway. I would THINK that what you're saying about the 3 gate > 3 rax was really more an issue of raw positioning or inequality of cost - which is why I'd like to see vid or replay. As for Ghosts - EMP is really under utilized by terran players in most of the games I've played / seen. People use ghosts as a counter to templar - they should really be part of core in every terran army. It's sort of like how many toss players fuck up in forgetting to mix in sentries to their late game armies - terran fucks up in neglecting ghosts in their early/mid game.
I wasn't stating that 3 gate > 3 rax, but was just stating that to show I was not just butt-hurt from being out-macro'd. Protoss FF reaction speed determines a lot of early-game fights, and though I don't have a replay at the moment (need to figure out how to upload them), having 7-8 FFs make Protoss very hard to fight, and I may be so bold as to say it can nullify Stim in quite a few cases before the Medivacs roll out.
When both armies meet as a ball, the Terran can either choose to Stim to run up to the Protoss to force the engage and a faster concave, or Stim after the initial volley to maximize the amount of time the Stimm'd units are spent fighting. In both cases, I've had half my army cut out from under me by a wall of FFs at times, and if nothing else it wasted a Stim on half my army.
I don't begrudge Protoss or consider this overpowered- those FFs took skill and fast thinking to place, and can be nullified if I engaged in better positions (ie. in wide open area just before the expo of Xel'Naga Caverns instead of the two small-ish routes that lead into it). I was just stating situations when FF can swing an engagement in Protoss favor without needing Colo/HT DPS to back it up.
And yes, if the Protoss did not have enough Sentries in those situations my Stim'd MM ball would have rolled right over his army. There's nothing really imbalanced about FF, and I find good FF placement quite impressive, even when it's my army that's being bisected.
As to EMP, I think Terrans will learn to use it more, and then force the Protoss to learn to use Feedback better, and then Terrans will still have a frowny face. As I said before, an Observer slightly ahead of your army and a Feedback will snipe any Ghost trying to EMP before a fight. For Protoss who do not Feedback, I do have a lot of success with Ghosts, as I can EMP before the Templars get into Storm range.
As to people complaining about warp-in Storms, a good solution I've found is to have 1-2 Ghosts in a separate control group, cloak them, and move them around the main fight. Most Protoss players will warp their HTs in a blob as they're trying to do it as fast as possible, and a mid-warp in HT can be EMP'd without worrying about Feedback.
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Why are people still comparing ghosts with HT? In the late game ghosts build slowly and aren't available to warp in where ever u need them... Example: Huge bio drop in main? Warp in 2-3 HT and kill them... Cant warp in ghosts.. too bad.. die.
People dont understand that Terran HAS to push early and exploit timing windows. Its not that Terran players dont know how to marco.. they just can't compete. Do you expect Terran to sit and macro vs toss so that he can mass up 10 colossus' and amulet HTs? I've battled 200/200 armies TvP with almost every unit combination except BCs and i pretty much get erased by a combination of HT and Colossus. All those Protoss' out there should try the unit tester map and see what happens.
Edit: Important to understand that you can keep storming and kill tons of units with 2-3 storms. You dont kill units with EMP.
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On December 14 2010 05:42 Offhand wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2010 05:30 Scare_Crow wrote:On December 14 2010 05:26 Offhand wrote:
Why is it that every argument about protoss units being too good always comes with the assumption that we have infinite gas? This discussion is concerning late-game Protoss, and focuses on how Terran cannot let Protoss take his 3rd. If Protoss has a 3rd, that's 6 geysers, which means, yeah, you're gonna be rolling in Gas. And it's not as if you need 28 Templars or something to decimate a bioball. 4-5 good Storms will do that, and that's 3 fully charged Templars, or 5 just warped. That's... 600 gas in total, which a single Geyser can get in you about 2 minutes. I think you should read up on units costs and such before making these conclusions. HTs are 50/150 for starters.
I'm aware that they are 50/150. I discount the mineral cost, because you were speaking about infinite Gas, and because there's probably something wrong if people with HT tech cannot shell out 200 minerals, but can shell out 600 gas. And 600 gas = 4 templars = 4 storms on the go, which is enough to drain pretty much all Medivac energy at the very, very least.
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+ Show Spoiler +On December 14 2010 05:21 Iron_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2010 03:45 Wrongspeedy wrote:On December 13 2010 23:24 4Servy wrote:
once protoss has the amulet its gg, its ridic how imba that upgrade is my dog can win with protoss after they got the amulet. 1120 Damage vs 14 Stalkers with 1 emp 1150 Damage vs 23 zealots with 1 emp. 700 to 7 Colossus 1100 to 11 Immortals Not to mention units clump under colossus, similar to air units. And Emp is a much faster tech than storm. A perfectly placed storm on 80 clumped marines on hold postion will kill 23 marines, inflicting 1035 damage. 960 to 12 Marauders standing still 22 Ghosts for 1750 damage.... (that made me laugh) So maybe once you get emp, you should hand your keyboard to your dog, let him do his thing. And yes I know emp will never kill my units, but its an advantage nonetheless and it has more front end damage than storm (which can't be stacked). Good yes, Imba... Probably not. I am sure clumping units together in a unit tester is fun, but it doesnt help balance this portion of the game. There are many other factors to consider, such as: 1) We need to stim ( do drugs much?), and one storm over a stimmed marine is either dead or under 10 health. Emp kills nothing, it just takes shields away (see points 7 & 8), and your base unit has a lot more HP than it does shields. To put this more simply, storms KILLS stuff while emp hurts stuff. 2) In order not to die, we need to *RUN*, and when *running* we are not doing damage, and you ARE doing damage. As soon as we stop running, another storm makes us get our nike's back on again. (do we do damage while running?)3) You can blanket the entire area with storms forcing T to just die or run away and have half health remaining (unless of course you lead your army with all your templars clumped together so that we can hit them all nice and neat). (there are situations where everyone needs their units spread.)4) There is very little chance of you hitting the maximum amount of units with one emp, and once emp hits, casting another one is useless, unlike storm. Storm can be re-cast, even on top of each other, and become more effective. (storm doesn't stack btw, and how is it any different than hitting units with storm?)5) The combination of FF and storm really does make bio useless in any head to head encounter. These two in combination make positioning a total loss for bio. (yeah I guess you should build more than just Rax to prepare for Colos and HT, like T does "every game")6) Positioning in battle in TvP is very very important because of FF and colossus range, and Storm can completely shape the formation of the battle position, since you can not stand under the storm. So, even if you get good position, you are forced OUT of your good position because storms will kill you. (positioning is always important in battle, anyone can take advantage of units with range, you know tanks right? Maybe vikings?)7) The unit that casts storm also has a zapping spell to take out the one unit that helps us survive or recover from a storm fest, I speak of course of the medivac. P gets free medivacs with its rediculous shield recovery rate. (You got me there, feedback is the bee's knees, and the reason the HT doesn't have an attack. Can't you heal every unit to 100%?)8) To go along with #7, if your toss army gets emped in the open field, you can run away. If you are a bad player or just unlucky, and we do happen to zap all your temps, just run and get your shields back. By the time you run half way across Xelnaga caverns, all of your z's are back to full sheilds without having an army of 100/100 units flying over them. (you can run too, you said something about doing that earlier. Just stay away from the deadend called your base that everyone has to deal with.) Just a few points about the real game vs unit tester clumping shots.
Yeah totally, to bad my whole point wasn't about the balance of the match-up of the "real" game. I only wanted to show the people who think storm is op, that emp is no different. Anyways I commented in the spoiler to.
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On December 14 2010 05:50 Scare_Crow wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2010 05:42 Offhand wrote:On December 14 2010 05:30 Scare_Crow wrote:On December 14 2010 05:26 Offhand wrote:
Why is it that every argument about protoss units being too good always comes with the assumption that we have infinite gas? This discussion is concerning late-game Protoss, and focuses on how Terran cannot let Protoss take his 3rd. If Protoss has a 3rd, that's 6 geysers, which means, yeah, you're gonna be rolling in Gas. And it's not as if you need 28 Templars or something to decimate a bioball. 4-5 good Storms will do that, and that's 3 fully charged Templars, or 5 just warped. That's... 600 gas in total, which a single Geyser can get in you about 2 minutes. I think you should read up on units costs and such before making these conclusions. HTs are 50/150 for starters. I'm aware that they are 50/150. I discount the mineral cost, because you were speaking about infinite Gas, and because there's probably something wrong if people with HT tech cannot shell out 200 minerals, but can shell out 600 gas. And 600 gas = 4 templars = 4 storms on the go, which is enough to drain pretty much all Medivac energy at the very, very least.
No one is arguing that HT are extremely cost effective. In the late game Terran will probably use up much more resources.
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On December 14 2010 05:39 statikg wrote:
@Offhand - we get it, you think terrans just need to L2P, state your ranking and show a replay of yourself losing to EMP using HT's please, I'm sure there are many protoss who could give you a few hints on how to improve. There are a million posts on emp vs templar and why its not as effective vs protoss who don't keep all their HT in a giant ball/how protoss can just fall back to their nearest proxy pylon with 4 new HTs all ready to storm. Meanwhile all the other HTs can become archons which are hardly useless as you earlier implied - they are very strong meatshields and do alot of damage in situations in which kiting is not possible.
@30-1 - I don't have a replay right now of that exact situation, but the reason that bioballs beat gateway units is that they can kite the zealots to death and then marauders are very strong against stalkers. The key unit is the zealot, zealots are light, have more hitpoints, (armor kicks in more) and do more damage to marines and equal damage to mauarders as stalkers, however generally they don't get to engage in the early game because of concussive shells. However when a zealot heavy army is able to engage because of a forcefield trap, that army can beat a bio army due to the frailness of marines and marauders being not that strong against zealots, so when the zealots are actually able to engage the gateway army > bio army, this is why if you try to do a big marauder rush at the start of the game a good protoss responds with sentry/zealot, lets you up the ramp and then crushes you. You need more marines against the zealots, but with lots of sentries... lack of kiting and guardian shield makes marines very underpowered especially with the 1base armor of zealots.
Basically it evolves into a micro battle, which I actually find very enjoyable and fairly balanced in itself (when forcefields are used well) that is to say that equal forces will usually do well against each other in the field. Except for the fact that it inevitably leads to the late game or completely undermines my defensive positions.
Edit: Hellions cannot be added to this composition without godlike micro which I do not have, I have tried this before, it requires you to stutter step and avoid storms with your bio, while simultaneously microing your hellions around to snipe the HTs. And if your too slow, you lose your army before you snipe the HTs. This just doenst work for me. The only thing you can try to do is sniper with hellions before you engage, but this generally results in you losing alot of hellions and not getting all the HTs and your main army is weakned by the loss of like 800 minerals worth of hellions.
I think its sort of telling that you're talking about how FF prevents kiting. In general kiting is a sign of being in a more aggressive stance (not always but often). You don't generally get the opportunity to do a lot of kiting when you're being put on the defensive.
As for needing more marines vs zealots - I would agree, and I think that a lot of terrans are too heavy on marauders in TvP because they want to attack very hard and marauders are so good for kiting. Marine dps is really insane. Guardian shield helps zealots - but honestly - as the fight scales to around 20+ supply unmacro'd marines beat gateway units handily (guardian shield included).
I think that arguing that all things being equal toss has a distinctive advantage at tier 1.5 is sort of ridiculous.
TvP is a really sort of crappy match in that its -so- sensitive to blunders. Early game positioning blunders for P is gg, late game positioning blunders by T is gg. Those blunders can be very small but will will result in game deciding landslide. TvP is extremely unforgiving, and thats why it sucks as a match. I don't think that its really imba. Just incredibly unforgiving of very small errors for either side.
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On December 14 2010 05:52 Wrongspeedy wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 14 2010 05:21 Iron_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2010 03:45 Wrongspeedy wrote:On December 13 2010 23:24 4Servy wrote:
once protoss has the amulet its gg, its ridic how imba that upgrade is my dog can win with protoss after they got the amulet. 1120 Damage vs 14 Stalkers with 1 emp 1150 Damage vs 23 zealots with 1 emp. 700 to 7 Colossus 1100 to 11 Immortals Not to mention units clump under colossus, similar to air units. And Emp is a much faster tech than storm. A perfectly placed storm on 80 clumped marines on hold postion will kill 23 marines, inflicting 1035 damage. 960 to 12 Marauders standing still 22 Ghosts for 1750 damage.... (that made me laugh) So maybe once you get emp, you should hand your keyboard to your dog, let him do his thing. And yes I know emp will never kill my units, but its an advantage nonetheless and it has more front end damage than storm (which can't be stacked). Good yes, Imba... Probably not. I am sure clumping units together in a unit tester is fun, but it doesnt help balance this portion of the game. There are many other factors to consider, such as: 1) We need to stim ( do drugs much?), and one storm over a stimmed marine is either dead or under 10 health. Emp kills nothing, it just takes shields away (see points 7 & 8), and your base unit has a lot more HP than it does shields. To put this more simply, storms KILLS stuff while emp hurts stuff. 2) In order not to die, we need to *RUN*, and when *running* we are not doing damage, and you ARE doing damage. As soon as we stop running, another storm makes us get our nike's back on again. (do we do damage while running?)3) You can blanket the entire area with storms forcing T to just die or run away and have half health remaining (unless of course you lead your army with all your templars clumped together so that we can hit them all nice and neat). (there are situations where everyone needs their units spread.)4) There is very little chance of you hitting the maximum amount of units with one emp, and once emp hits, casting another one is useless, unlike storm. Storm can be re-cast, even on top of each other, and become more effective. (storm doesn't stack btw, and how is it any different than hitting units with storm?)5) The combination of FF and storm really does make bio useless in any head to head encounter. These two in combination make positioning a total loss for bio. (yeah I guess you should build more than just Rax to prepare for Colos and HT, like T does "every game")6) Positioning in battle in TvP is very very important because of FF and colossus range, and Storm can completely shape the formation of the battle position, since you can not stand under the storm. So, even if you get good position, you are forced OUT of your good position because storms will kill you. (positioning is always important in battle, anyone can take advantage of units with range, you know tanks right? Maybe vikings?)7) The unit that casts storm also has a zapping spell to take out the one unit that helps us survive or recover from a storm fest, I speak of course of the medivac. P gets free medivacs with its rediculous shield recovery rate. (You got me there, feedback is the bee's knees, and the reason the HT doesn't have an attack. Can't you heal every unit to 100%?)8) To go along with #7, if your toss army gets emped in the open field, you can run away. If you are a bad player or just unlucky, and we do happen to zap all your temps, just run and get your shields back. By the time you run half way across Xelnaga caverns, all of your z's are back to full sheilds without having an army of 100/100 units flying over them. (you can run too, you said something about doing that earlier. Just stay away from the deadend called your base that everyone has to deal with.) Just a few points about the real game vs unit tester clumping shots. Yeah totally, to bad my whole point wasn't about the balance of the match-up of the "real" game. I only wanted to show the people who think storm is op, that emp is no different. Anyways I commented in the spoiler to.
I'll say it again. 2-3 storms kill tons of units. 1 Emp does damage.. but thats it. You cant Emp again to kill the units. Take a bio ball and kill it with 3 HT. Take a Gateway ball and try killing it with "more expensive" 2-3 ghosts.
Edit: And if you think emp will catch every HT.. remember Protoss will be warping in HTs continuously with Zealots/Archons to tank.
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On December 14 2010 05:49 shynee wrote:
Why are people still comparing ghosts with HT? In the late game ghosts build slowly and aren't available to warp in where ever u need them... Example: Huge bio drop in main? Warp in 2-3 HT and kill them... Cant warp in ghosts.. too bad.. die.
People dont understand that Terran HAS to push early and exploit timing windows. Its not that Terran players dont know how to marco.. they just can't compete. Do you expect Terran to sit and macro vs toss so that he can mass up 10 colossus' and amulet HTs? I've battled 200/200 armies TvP with almost every unit combination except BCs and i pretty much get erased by a combination of HT and Colossus. All those Protoss' out there should try the unit tester map and see what happens.
While I hate HTs in mass army fights, I have to say that 3 HTs cannot stop a bio drop, if you bring Marauders. You'd need 1.5 storm durations to kill a Marauder that is not being healed. Of course, since late-game Protoss have 15 Warp Gates they can just warp in 10 Zealots instead and save the gas.
HTs are obscene support and harassment units, but they can't fight without a wall of Zealot/Stalker/Sentries.
HT drop/warp-in mineral line harass though, ugh. The Strelok vs Hasu game AskJoshy casted a few days ago shows Hasu decimating Strelok's economy with I think 2 Storms from HTs that sneak behind the enemy. For Terran to have the same effect, they'd need to drop an unnoticed Nuke or a Drop Ship's worth of blue-flame Hellions.
http://www.youtube.com/user/AskJoshy?blend=2&ob=1#p/u/1/4W-Ul_HbdwQ
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On December 14 2010 05:56 Scare_Crow wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2010 05:49 shynee wrote:
Why are people still comparing ghosts with HT? In the late game ghosts build slowly and aren't available to warp in where ever u need them... Example: Huge bio drop in main? Warp in 2-3 HT and kill them... Cant warp in ghosts.. too bad.. die.
People dont understand that Terran HAS to push early and exploit timing windows. Its not that Terran players dont know how to marco.. they just can't compete. Do you expect Terran to sit and macro vs toss so that he can mass up 10 colossus' and amulet HTs? I've battled 200/200 armies TvP with almost every unit combination except BCs and i pretty much get erased by a combination of HT and Colossus. All those Protoss' out there should try the unit tester map and see what happens. While I hate HTs in mass army fights, I have to say that 3 HTs cannot stop a bio drop, if you bring Marauders. You'd need 1.5 storm durations to kill a Marauder that is not being healed. Of course, since late-game Protoss have 15 Warp Gates they can just warp in 10 Zealots instead and save the gas. HTs are obscene support and harassment units, but they can't fight without a wall of Zealot/Stalker/Sentries. HT drop/warp-in mineral line harass though, ugh. The Strelok vs Hasu game AskJoshy casted a few days ago shows Hasu decimating Strelok's economy with I think 2 Storms from HTs that sneak behind the enemy. For Terran to have the same effect, they'd need to drop an unnoticed Nuke or a Drop Ship's worth of blue-flame Hellions. http://www.youtube.com/user/AskJoshy?blend=2&ob=1#p/u/1/4W-Ul_HbdwQ
Obviously you arent just storming that army.. with colossus and zealot support.. Terran cant dodge forever. HT will bring the units to the red and colossus will take 1 swipe at it.
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On December 14 2010 05:55 30to1 wrote:
I think its sort of telling that you're talking about how FF prevents kiting. In general kiting is a sign of being in a more aggressive stance (not always but often). You don't generally get the opportunity to do a lot of kiting when you're being put on the defensive.
As for needing more marines vs zealots - I would agree, and I think that a lot of terrans are too heavy on marauders in TvP because they want to attack very hard and marauders are so good for kiting. Marine dps is really insane. Guardian shield helps zealots - but honestly - as the fight scales to around 20+ supply unmacro'd marines beat gateway units handily (guardian shield included).
I think that arguing that all things being equal toss has a distinctive advantage at tier 1.5 is sort of ridiculous.
TvP is a really sort of crappy match in that its -so- sensitive to blunders. Early game positioning blunders for P is gg, late game positioning blunders by T is gg. Those blunders can be very small but will will result in game deciding landslide. TvP is extremely unforgiving, and thats why it sucks as a match. I don't think that its really imba. Just incredibly unforgiving of very small errors for either side.
I assume you meant unmicroed 20+ suppply. This is only true because protoss are forced to get sentries and stalkers to damage kiting bioballs and so this weakens there army in a straight up toe to toe. If they were able to get a ton of zealots and get a good surface area of attack the unmicroed protoss ball would win (obviously this kind of analysis is irrelevant because at some critical mass a pure marine ball would in turn win). I mentioned in my post that I think that gateway v bio is only balanced with the addition of good forcefields on the part of the protoss.
I don't think kiting necessarily implies aggressive, I kite protoss back into my base/mineral lines all the time, its the only way to win. I think the reason that T armies tend to be maurader heavy is that as soon as that first collosus/HT pops, all your marines are rendered basically worthless, so you need to set up your rax with this in mind. That said perhaps an extra reactor rax would be helpful that could be switched over to the starport later on.
+ Show Spoiler +
Edit: In regards to replays, in game 3 of jinro v MC, MC destroys jinro with good forcefield usage - he doesnt actually use zealots as I have described, but its the only replays I've watched recently.
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On December 14 2010 05:50 Scare_Crow wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2010 05:42 Offhand wrote:On December 14 2010 05:30 Scare_Crow wrote:On December 14 2010 05:26 Offhand wrote:
Why is it that every argument about protoss units being too good always comes with the assumption that we have infinite gas? This discussion is concerning late-game Protoss, and focuses on how Terran cannot let Protoss take his 3rd. If Protoss has a 3rd, that's 6 geysers, which means, yeah, you're gonna be rolling in Gas. And it's not as if you need 28 Templars or something to decimate a bioball. 4-5 good Storms will do that, and that's 3 fully charged Templars, or 5 just warped. That's... 600 gas in total, which a single Geyser can get in you about 2 minutes. I think you should read up on units costs and such before making these conclusions. HTs are 50/150 for starters. I'm aware that they are 50/150. I discount the mineral cost, because you were speaking about infinite Gas, and because there's probably something wrong if people with HT tech cannot shell out 200 minerals, but can shell out 600 gas. And 600 gas = 4 templars = 4 storms on the go, which is enough to drain pretty much all Medivac energy at the very, very least.
Yeah it probably had something to do with the fact that 4 templars aren't mentioned anywhere in your previous post. But good recovery.
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+ Show Spoiler +On December 14 2010 05:56 shynee wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2010 05:52 Wrongspeedy wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 14 2010 05:21 Iron_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2010 03:45 Wrongspeedy wrote:On December 13 2010 23:24 4Servy wrote:
once protoss has the amulet its gg, its ridic how imba that upgrade is my dog can win with protoss after they got the amulet. 1120 Damage vs 14 Stalkers with 1 emp 1150 Damage vs 23 zealots with 1 emp. 700 to 7 Colossus 1100 to 11 Immortals Not to mention units clump under colossus, similar to air units. And Emp is a much faster tech than storm. A perfectly placed storm on 80 clumped marines on hold postion will kill 23 marines, inflicting 1035 damage. 960 to 12 Marauders standing still 22 Ghosts for 1750 damage.... (that made me laugh) So maybe once you get emp, you should hand your keyboard to your dog, let him do his thing. And yes I know emp will never kill my units, but its an advantage nonetheless and it has more front end damage than storm (which can't be stacked). Good yes, Imba... Probably not. I am sure clumping units together in a unit tester is fun, but it doesnt help balance this portion of the game. There are many other factors to consider, such as: 1) We need to stim ( do drugs much?), and one storm over a stimmed marine is either dead or under 10 health. Emp kills nothing, it just takes shields away (see points 7 & 8), and your base unit has a lot more HP than it does shields. To put this more simply, storms KILLS stuff while emp hurts stuff. 2) In order not to die, we need to *RUN*, and when *running* we are not doing damage, and you ARE doing damage. As soon as we stop running, another storm makes us get our nike's back on again. (do we do damage while running?)3) You can blanket the entire area with storms forcing T to just die or run away and have half health remaining (unless of course you lead your army with all your templars clumped together so that we can hit them all nice and neat). (there are situations where everyone needs their units spread.)4) There is very little chance of you hitting the maximum amount of units with one emp, and once emp hits, casting another one is useless, unlike storm. Storm can be re-cast, even on top of each other, and become more effective. (storm doesn't stack btw, and how is it any different than hitting units with storm?)5) The combination of FF and storm really does make bio useless in any head to head encounter. These two in combination make positioning a total loss for bio. (yeah I guess you should build more than just Rax to prepare for Colos and HT, like T does "every game")6) Positioning in battle in TvP is very very important because of FF and colossus range, and Storm can completely shape the formation of the battle position, since you can not stand under the storm. So, even if you get good position, you are forced OUT of your good position because storms will kill you. (positioning is always important in battle, anyone can take advantage of units with range, you know tanks right? Maybe vikings?)7) The unit that casts storm also has a zapping spell to take out the one unit that helps us survive or recover from a storm fest, I speak of course of the medivac. P gets free medivacs with its rediculous shield recovery rate. (You got me there, feedback is the bee's knees, and the reason the HT doesn't have an attack. Can't you heal every unit to 100%?)8) To go along with #7, if your toss army gets emped in the open field, you can run away. If you are a bad player or just unlucky, and we do happen to zap all your temps, just run and get your shields back. By the time you run half way across Xelnaga caverns, all of your z's are back to full sheilds without having an army of 100/100 units flying over them. (you can run too, you said something about doing that earlier. Just stay away from the deadend called your base that everyone has to deal with.) Just a few points about the real game vs unit tester clumping shots. Yeah totally, to bad my whole point wasn't about the balance of the match-up of the "real" game. I only wanted to show the people who think storm is op, that emp is no different. Anyways I commented in the spoiler to. I'll say it again. 2-3 storms kill tons of units. 1 Emp does damage.. but thats it. You cant Emp again to kill the units. Take a bio ball and kill it with 3 HT. Take a Gateway ball and try killing it with "more expensive" 2-3 ghosts. Edit: And if you think emp will catch every HT.. remember Protoss will be warping in HTs continuously with Zealots/Archons to tank.
So? Don't build 15 ghosts? I need 15 HT to hold off your 8 rax. No one said emp straight up killed units, but I'm pretty sure all your pretty bullets do. And it does more damage in 1 second than storm does in 4, and nothing you can say disproves that (except arguing unit position, which is relative to a bajillion other things including player skill.) Thats the only reason I showed those numbers. Think about it, 1 emp/1 second/instant damage up 100 shields, 1 storm/80 damage over 4 seconds. I think you underestimate emp (err I mean Feedsomback or Steedback or Feedorn...errr...feedback-and-storm-in-one).
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This is a ~2400 diamond game I played yesterday where HTs were critical to winning, or at least surviving until carrier end-game.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/115521-1v1-terran-protoss-lost-temple
I played T this game like PvZ, constantly pressuring/attacking to keep his army count low until I can get HTs (no colossus were built this 40min game).
Toss really can't survive late game vs T without storm, but I also recognize with the amulet, it's on the slightly OP side. I really don't know what the patch solution is.
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On December 14 2010 06:08 whoopadeedoo wrote:
Toss really can't survive late game vs T without storm, but I also recognize with the amulet, it's on the slightly OP side. I really don't know what the patch solution is.
Amulet is good. No one is debating that, but it's not nearly as game changing as charge.
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On December 14 2010 06:04 statikg wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2010 05:55 30to1 wrote:
I think its sort of telling that you're talking about how FF prevents kiting. In general kiting is a sign of being in a more aggressive stance (not always but often). You don't generally get the opportunity to do a lot of kiting when you're being put on the defensive.
As for needing more marines vs zealots - I would agree, and I think that a lot of terrans are too heavy on marauders in TvP because they want to attack very hard and marauders are so good for kiting. Marine dps is really insane. Guardian shield helps zealots - but honestly - as the fight scales to around 20+ supply unmacro'd marines beat gateway units handily (guardian shield included).
I think that arguing that all things being equal toss has a distinctive advantage at tier 1.5 is sort of ridiculous.
TvP is a really sort of crappy match in that its -so- sensitive to blunders. Early game positioning blunders for P is gg, late game positioning blunders by T is gg. Those blunders can be very small but will will result in game deciding landslide. TvP is extremely unforgiving, and thats why it sucks as a match. I don't think that its really imba. Just incredibly unforgiving of very small errors for either side.
I assume you meant unmicroed 20+ suppply. This is only true because protoss are forced to get sentries and stalkers to damage kiting bioballs and so this weakens there army in a straight up toe to toe. If they were able to get a ton of zealots and get a good surface area of attack the unmicroed protoss ball would win (obviously this kind of analysis is irrelevant because at some critical mass a pure marine ball would in turn win). I mentioned in my post that I think that gateway v bio is only balanced with the addition of good forcefields on the part of the protoss. I don't think kiting necessarily implies aggressive, I kite protoss back into my base/mineral lines all the time, its the only way to win. I think the reason that T armies tend to be maurader heavy is that as soon as that first collosus/HT pops, all your marines are rendered basically worthless, so you need to set up your rax with this in mind. That said perhaps an extra reactor rax would be helpful that could be switched over to the starport later on. In regards to replays, I'm not exactly sure in which one (except it definitely wasnt in game 4), but I believe if you watch the first 3 of the Jinro v MC series you will see what I mean.
I'll watch the game again.
In all honesty I think that ghosts remain a under utilized early game in the same way that sentries are often under utilized late game. T should probably mix in ghosts in at a ~10-1 supply ratio in absolutely every T army I would include this in drops.
So yeah - for every 10 marines you have you should probably have around 1 ghost when playing vs toss. EMP is -so- good.
Often times - even in pro games you will see toss neglect to reinforce sentries in late mid or late game. This usually results in shitty results. I think the ghost situation is similar with terran - T tends to think of a ghost as a templar counter, when it should just really always be present in every T army (including almost all drops - you know how fast buildings go down w/ no shields?).
That's why I tend to think that terran play in TvP isn't as refined as it should be.
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However when the game last longer i simply die to mass zealot. When both have their 3 up it becomes rly hard 4 me tp spend my mins in time and i often end up having 1000 overmins and 0 gas.
hellions work wonders against a lot of zealots, and if you have excess mins throw a reactor fact down and get like 8 hellions. it works imo
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On December 14 2010 05:58 shynee wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2010 05:56 Scare_Crow wrote:On December 14 2010 05:49 shynee wrote:
Why are people still comparing ghosts with HT? In the late game ghosts build slowly and aren't available to warp in where ever u need them... Example: Huge bio drop in main? Warp in 2-3 HT and kill them... Cant warp in ghosts.. too bad.. die.
People dont understand that Terran HAS to push early and exploit timing windows. Its not that Terran players dont know how to marco.. they just can't compete. Do you expect Terran to sit and macro vs toss so that he can mass up 10 colossus' and amulet HTs? I've battled 200/200 armies TvP with almost every unit combination except BCs and i pretty much get erased by a combination of HT and Colossus. All those Protoss' out there should try the unit tester map and see what happens. While I hate HTs in mass army fights, I have to say that 3 HTs cannot stop a bio drop, if you bring Marauders. You'd need 1.5 storm durations to kill a Marauder that is not being healed. Of course, since late-game Protoss have 15 Warp Gates they can just warp in 10 Zealots instead and save the gas. HTs are obscene support and harassment units, but they can't fight without a wall of Zealot/Stalker/Sentries. HT drop/warp-in mineral line harass though, ugh. The Strelok vs Hasu game AskJoshy casted a few days ago shows Hasu decimating Strelok's economy with I think 2 Storms from HTs that sneak behind the enemy. For Terran to have the same effect, they'd need to drop an unnoticed Nuke or a Drop Ship's worth of blue-flame Hellions. http://www.youtube.com/user/AskJoshy?blend=2&ob=1#p/u/1/4W-Ul_HbdwQ Obviously you arent just storming that army.. with colossus and zealot support.. Terran cant dodge forever. HT will bring the units to the red and colossus will take 1 swipe at it.
I've found having several Ghosts is essential in TvP. Most Protoss players cannot get both Colossi and Templars in numbers that matter until at least 3 bases and ~25 minutes in my experience, so you really only have to defend against one of the two unless you leave them alone for too long (I'm only 1600 Diamond, though, so this is low Diamond opinions).
Whenever I lose against Protoss, it's because I let their army get too big. FF and Storm scale with army sizes, since they can separate or hit more units the larger the armies. You want to keep trading armies with him. Here's what I do:
I start with 3 Rax with my Engi Bay going down after the first Rax and try to get a very fast 1/1, start my CC and push when Stim finishes. I try to hold off on Stim until the two armies are entangled and he cannot withdraw from the engagement, and at this point we usually just trade armies, as even if he went a very, very quick Colossus, his Extended Thermal Lances are probably unfinished, and its vulnerable to Stim'd Marauders (only your Marauders, leave your Marines to their own devices and rush his Colossus with your Marauders). If I push him to his natural, I'll try to either kill workers/Nexus, or just back off. You want to keep his army small.
While this is happening, I'll have put down another Rax (I go tech lab, reactor, tech lab, tech lab), and got my Fact w/ Reactor to swap with Starport for 2 Medivacs. At this point, if he's going Colossi, I get ~8 Vikings before making more Medivacs. If he is going Templar, I put up my Ghost Academy and get 2 Ghosts immediately, then I start Moebius Reactor and then Cloak, as well as more Raxes.
Now two things will happen:
If we fight, I get my Ghosts to the 2nd line of my bio ball and fire my EMPs. Ghosts come out faster than Templars, so I can usually just decimate his army before his Templars can get Storm energy.
If we don't, I expand again, get a Planetary Fortress, and macro with a 2nd Starport if he's Colossus-ing hardcore or 2 more Raxes.
If we enter late game with big armies, things get hard. Make sure your upgrades are up to snuff, go double Engi Bay, upgrades are insanely good. Get 1-2 Ghosts in a separate control group and keep them to the side, also, get 1-2 Medivacs, load them up with Marauders, put them in a hotkey, and just park them out of sight right next to his main over a chasm (when's the last time Protoss players got air against T?  ).
Make sure your Ghosts are in the second line of your ball so they can get in range to fire off EMPs in the beginning of the fight at the Templars, but are shielded from the Chargelots.
As soon as the fight starts, I EMP with my main group, as many as you can, your Ghosts likely will not survive so just fire everything. Stim, A-move, dodge the first volley of Storms if necessary. Then, I get my Medivacs, and tell them to drop into the main base Then, cloak my 2 side Ghosts and move them around the battle, get them behind the enemy, between his base and the fight. Now, the Medivacs are probably unloaded, Stim the Marauders, A-Move them towards the opposite side of the base and let them go at it.
Now, in the main battle, micro away from storms, get Vikings to shoot Colossus, etc. Keep an eye on your two side Ghosts, however, as the main battle honestly does not require much micro. The Protoss player will do one of two things: he'll respond to the drop in his base with Zealot warps, or he will try to win the main fight with HT warps. If he Zealot warps, try to snipe what buildings you can, aim for things like Templar Archives and Robotics Support Bays, move your two Ghosts back behind his army and EMP/Snipe some HTs. If he HT warps, your side Ghosts are in perfect position to EMP his HTs mid-warp in. They are now useless, and you have likely won the game right there, as by the time his Warpgate CD finishes, you're at his expansion.
Sorry, long post, but this IS more for strategy than for complaining.
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Wrong speedy, the reason your argument doesnt make any sense is because although you could potentially do more overall damage with emp then storm, there is a cap in that damage and protoss units have more health/take up more space then terran units. Thus while protoss can continue to attack after a blanket emp (which would require a ridiculous number of fairly weak ghosts), terran cannot attack through a blanket storm so they are forced to micro out of it while protoss have the option of continuing the attack. In the event that you successfully micro out of a storm, you can then be stormed again, whereas protoss units cannot be empd again, this makes the abilities fundamentally different and storm altho on a 1-1 basis does appear weaker, on a large scale basis is clearly stronger. Also the ability to instantly warp in and storm where needed is clearly far superior to having a long build time out of the rax with an ability which is only helpful as a supporting spell for the reasons articulated above.
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EPT
