On December 14 2010 07:00 Endbringer wrote: I am not complaining about a turtling protoss, I would just like to win the game at some point. That means after I kill his army I have to attack him. Hopefully he has a pylon next to his expo/base...
I have not tried cloaking a ghost or two in between his army and his warp in point. I will try that although I am doubtfull about my ability to win the big fight without those two ghosts. I don't often just have them lying around playing peanuckle Still it is an idea and that's what this thread is for!
Edit- Yay 1.5x the mineral income! That's awesome late game! I am always so mineral starved. Thank god I can build a million marines that all die to storm or a bunch of hellions that actually spontaneously combust in front of a late game army. Mules have nothing to do with this discussion, try reading.
By the time the big fight arrives, I usually have around 4-5 Ghosts. From my experience (only about 100 TvPs, I admit), 2-3 Ghosts mixed into your big army in front is usually enough unless your opponent is a god with Feedback. You want to target HTs that are near the front, then Sentries if they're grouped up, and finally Stalker/Immortals, and try to fire your EMPs that are not aimed at casters slightly after the first volley, so they can't just turn around and run until shields regen.
Alternatively, if you feel you cannot spare the 2 Ghosts, if you can spare 1-2 Dropships of Marauders that can also work, as if you drop into his main as soon as the fight happens (drop the Marauders at the edge of his base with a hotkey of the Dropship and the Marauders, stim the Marauders, then just A-Move on your minimap to the opposite side of the base). In most cases, your opponent will be forced to decide if he wants his Warpgate cycle to be for HTs, or to warp in Zealots to stop your Marauders from trashing his base. This can also indirectly prevent the next wave of HTs, at least a few of them.
Always try to drop a different location/expansion each time you do this, as he'll likely wise up and leave 3-4 Stalkers at your old drop site.
Since Protoss usually does not go air, I try to keep a Dropship or two just hovering outside his bases. If you have the same economy, missing 4 Marauders or 2 Ghosts will not win or lose you a fight, and after you do the drop(s) you don't have to micro, while he is distracted during the more critical moments of the fight, since it's already started. Protoss love big battles but lose at small ones, and since you can constantly send a stream of units while he has bursts of units every 20 seconds or so, if you make him mess up his initial group of warp-ins (ie. commit too many Zealots to fight your Marauder drop), you suddenly have the advantage.
I think the problem is that people take this game too seriously. 99% of the people on this board are not pros, yet they seem to focus on studying some build orders and such. theres nothing wrong with that; however, if, maybe, people started to play around with the mechanics, tech paths etc of the game and testing unconventional things, then ghost play, thors, mech will all come around. pros cant really do that stuff because money and reputation is on the line. they'll always do what they are comfortable with. but the rest of us should all be fucking around half the time. Then, the game will really develop. its not the pros that develop the game. its the little guy thats screwing around and doing gimmicky stuff.
when i started playing, every p feared early bio pushes. then we learned to pump out a quick collosus while ff ramp. now, i dont even open robo unless i feel cloak is coming. i open phoenix most of the time. all the while t players still use bio exclusively.
that being said. why dont t players integrate thors, tanks, or ghosts into their army MORE. P palyers usually have 7 temps in their army. there will be like 2 ghosts, or 3 tanks in the t's. thats not enough imo for those units to be effective. why dont you guys use nukes more often? why not drop 4 (or whatever fits in the dropship) reapers with nitro in the p's base and wreck havoc. that slow ass thor can be put into the dropship youll have and then dropped in battle. its not like most of us dont have the 400-500 minerals and 300 gas lying around. try something other than the same thing.
for what its worth, I'm 2100 diamond p and I have never used, nor do i know any bo. let the guys who make a living worry about that crap. its nice to know, but its more nice to screw around and have fun... I definitely dont think one upgrade or warpin is the problem here. I think its more of the fact that nonprofessional terran players keep doing the same shit over and over again. either mmm, some banshee pdd timing, or an scv thor or whatever all in. and the latter are very rare, at least at my lvl.
On December 14 2010 07:00 Endbringer wrote: I am not complaining about a turtling protoss, I would just like to win the game at some point. That means after I kill his army I have to attack him. Hopefully he has a pylon next to his expo/base...
I have not tried cloaking a ghost or two in between his army and his warp in point. I will try that although I am doubtfull about my ability to win the big fight without those two ghosts. I don't often just have them lying around playing peanuckle Still it is an idea and that's what this thread is for!
Edit- Yay 1.5x the mineral income! That's awesome late game! I am always so mineral starved. Thank god I can build a million marines that all die to storm or a bunch of hellions that actually spontaneously combust in front of a late game army. Mules have nothing to do with this discussion, try reading.
By the time the big fight arrives, I usually have around 4-5 Ghosts. From my experience (only about 100 TvPs, I admit), 2-3 Ghosts mixed into your big army in front is usually enough unless your opponent is a god with Feedback. You want to target HTs that are near the front, then Sentries if they're grouped up, and finally Stalker/Immortals, and try to fire your EMPs that are not aimed at casters slightly after the first volley, so they can't just turn around and run until shields regen.
Alternatively, if you feel you cannot spare the 2 Ghosts, if you can spare 1-2 Dropships of Marauders that can also work, as if you drop into his main as soon as the fight happens (drop the Marauders at the edge of his base with a hotkey of the Dropship and the Marauders, stim the Marauders, then just A-Move on your minimap to the opposite side of the base). In most cases, your opponent will be forced to decide if he wants his Warpgate cycle to be for HTs, or to warp in Zealots to stop your Marauders from trashing his base. This can also indirectly prevent the next wave of HTs, at least a few of them.
Always try to drop a different location/expansion each time you do this, as he'll likely wise up and leave 3-4 Stalkers at your old drop site.
Since Protoss usually does not go air, I try to keep a Dropship or two just hovering outside his bases. If you have the same economy, missing 4 Marauders or 2 Ghosts will not win or lose you a fight, and after you do the drop(s) you don't have to micro, while he is distracted during the more critical moments of the fight, since it's already started. Protoss love big battles but lose at small ones, and since you can constantly send a stream of units while he has bursts of units every 20 seconds or so, if you make him mess up his initial group of warp-ins (ie. commit too many Zealots to fight your Marauder drop), you suddenly have the advantage.
doesnt matter if u manage to emp most of his HTs he just needs 3-4 good storms to rape food capped bio army, also keep in mind that hts are behind P army so to reach them you need to have your ghosts infront exposed to his army. (colo, chargelots etc)
On December 14 2010 07:25 adamb111 wrote: I think the problem is that people take this game too seriously. 99% of the people on this board are not pros, yet they seem to focus on studying some build orders and such. theres nothing wrong with that; however, if, maybe, people started to play around with the mechanics, tech paths etc of the game and testing unconventional things, then ghost play, thors, mech will all come around. pros cant really do that stuff because money and reputation is on the line. they'll always do what they are comfortable with. but the rest of us should all be fucking around half the time. Then, the game will really develop. its not the pros that develop the game. its the little guy thats screwing around and doing gimmicky stuff.
when i started playing, every p feared early bio pushes. then we learned to pump out a quick collosus while ff ramp. now, i dont even open robo unless i feel cloak is coming. i open phoenix most of the time. all the while t players still use bio exclusively.
that being said. why dont t players integrate thors, tanks, or ghosts into their army MORE. P palyers usually have 7 temps in their army. there will be like 2 ghosts, or 3 tanks in the t's. thats not enough imo for those units to be effective. why dont you guys use nukes more often? why not drop 4 (or whatever fits in the dropship) reapers with nitro in the p's base and wreck havoc. that slow ass thor can be put into the dropship youll have and then dropped in battle. its not like most of us dont have the 400-500 minerals and 300 gas lying around. try something other than the same thing.
for what its worth, I'm 2100 diamond p and I have never used, nor do i know any bo. let the guys who make a living worry about that crap. its nice to know, but its more nice to screw around and have fun... I definitely dont think one upgrade or warpin is the problem here. I think its more of the fact that nonprofessional terran players keep doing the same shit over and over again. either mmm, some banshee pdd timing, or an scv thor or whatever all in. and the latter are very rare, at least at my lvl.
pros do mess around with all sorts of diffrent things, just not in tournaments, almost every good strategy has come from a pro trying and prefecting it not someone from bronze messing around and owning it up winning everything and latter everyone in diamond started doing it
On December 14 2010 03:36 soulcrusher wrote: Sounds like you need better ghost micro. Ghost > Templar
On December 14 2010 03:45 Wrongspeedy wrote: So maybe once you get emp, you should hand your keyboard to your dog, let him do his thing. And yes I know emp will never kill my units, but its an advantage nonetheless and it has more front end damage than storm (which can't be stacked). Good yes, Imba... Probably not.
On December 14 2010 05:02 FenneK wrote: And if you really have that much trouble against HT, get some ghosts and EMP. Not hard.
I asked to watch the replays... Both Kas and Servyoa had ghosts and emp'ed a lot. On lost temple kas sniped a few HT's and emped a few. Sollution: warp in 3 more HT's and win. Ghosts are okay against HT, but you will run out of energy soon. HT's will form archons and they will destroy the rest of T's army with 3 new HT's. Then you warp in some zealots and you go to his raxes. GG.
On December 14 2010 07:01 iAmJeffReY wrote: For one cycle of marines/marauder/medic, I get I'll say 3-4 maras, 1 ghost, 4-8 marines x 2 if I include 2 medics. Over a minute of build. They get like 8 HTs, 8 zeals, 1 collsai, 2 stalkers, 1-2 sentry in instant warp lol.r.
Ok, so in your example, your opponent can macro off of 21-22 gates continuously? For the sake of argument, let's assume each fully saturated protoss base can support more-or-less continuous production for 4 gateways, meaning you're fighting a toss with about 5 bases in this scenario. As previously mentioned in this thread, it's gg at this point.
Also, as far as I can work out from your sentence (does the phrase "4-8 marines x2" account for reactors or not?), in your example terran is working with somewhere between 6-13 'raxes and 1 or 2 starports. Amazingly, if you let your opponent build way more stuff than you, the odds are not in your favour.
Finally, I'm surprised at the amount of terrans complaining about protoss being impossible to counterattack after winning a major engagement. What happened to PFs and mass-repair? As a 'toss player, I find that supremely annoying to deal with, and it often stops my advance cold after I win a big fight. Is this not viable at higher levels, or am I missing something?
On December 14 2010 07:01 iAmJeffReY wrote: For one cycle of marines/marauder/medic, I get I'll say 3-4 maras, 1 ghost, 4-8 marines x 2 if I include 2 medics. Over a minute of build. They get like 8 HTs, 8 zeals, 1 collsai, 2 stalkers, 1-2 sentry in instant warp lol.r.
Ok, so in your example, your opponent can macro off of 21-22 gates continuously? For the sake of argument, let's assume each fully saturated protoss base can support more-or-less continuous production for 4 gateways, meaning you're fighting a toss with about 5 bases in this scenario. As previously mentioned in this thread, it's gg at this point.
Also, as far as I can work out from your sentence (does the phrase "4-8 marines x2" account for reactors or not?), in your example terran is working with somewhere between 6-13 'raxes and 1 or 2 starports. Amazingly, if you let your opponent build way more stuff than you, the odds are not in your favour.
Finally, I'm surprised at the amount of terrans complaining about protoss being impossible to counterattack after winning a major engagement. What happened to PFs and mass-repair? As a 'toss player, I find that supremely annoying to deal with, and it often stops my advance cold after I win a big fight. Is this not viable at higher levels, or am I missing something?
On December 14 2010 07:41 Bonham wrote: Finally, I'm surprised at the amount of terrans complaining about protoss being impossible to counterattack after winning a major engagement. What happened to PFs and mass-repair? As a 'toss player, I find that supremely annoying to deal with, and it often stops my advance cold after I win a big fight. Is this not viable at higher levels, or am I missing something?
Just ignore the PFs and go to his raxes when you killed his army. No way that the terran will come back from this. I once lost like this. I had 6 bases and my protoss opponent had 2. I had 188 supply, he had 122 (HT + zealots). I missemped and I mismicro'ed my marauders because I was very confortable. How could I lose with 6 bases against a 2base protoss huh :p. Result: my whole army died. He made some archons and he reinforced very quickly. By the time my marauders were out, he was in my base and there was no way I could come back. After he destroyed my raxes, he killed my PF's.
warp gates have a cooldown too, im not sure why everyone says " well you can warp in 5 ht and i have to walk my ghost across", this all depends on where your fighting. also you can build more then 1 ghost at a time.
Secondly the best thing agianst ht is battlecruiser (with yahmato). sorry it takes t3 to beat t3, ghost are kinda 50/50 vs ht where the entire battle/game depends on micro. but once you get some bc its over. Im not sure why everyone thinks that they should win when their out teched. theres a great qxc game that shows bc>ht a few post back.
On December 14 2010 07:01 iAmJeffReY wrote: For one cycle of marines/marauder/medic, I get I'll say 3-4 maras, 1 ghost, 4-8 marines x 2 if I include 2 medics. Over a minute of build. They get like 8 HTs, 8 zeals, 1 collsai, 2 stalkers, 1-2 sentry in instant warp lol.r.
That my mara, 1 ghost, 4-8 marines would be x2, so 4-8 maras, 8-16 marines, 2 ghosts (if I wait longer) and 2 medivacs, in that time, warp cycle can be either chronoed, or even still the cycle speed is faster than building a marine, which is 30 seconds. So I'm implying, with real game experience not just theorycraft, that if you don't decimate their army, and land an EMP on their warping in HTs, you will not win. The speed protoss rebuild their army is double that of a terran with chrono boost.
Sure, mules are nice. Use a few DTs to harass, and we can't use mules because we have to save scans for DT run bys.
Finally, I'm surprised at the amount of terrans complaining about protoss being impossible to counterattack after winning a major engagement. What happened to PFs and mass-repair? As a 'toss player, I find that supremely annoying to deal with, and it often stops my advance cold after I win a big fight. Is this not viable at higher levels, or am I missing something?
Well, storm has a range of 9. If i upgrade it, my IMMOBILE PF has a range of 7. They can just storm my workers, meaning I'm shit out of macro luck. Even with mass repair, storm eats the SCVs up and the zealots didn't murder the PF too fast to even repair.
All protoss has to do is trade, trade, trade, and trade and you win. That's simple as that. I fool around on my friends account either high or drunk, it's just now 2k, and I'm 2.5k. I had to actually turn my gameplay on vs a 2200 freakin noobie toss, because he could warp in HTs and zeals and rape up my army. He was decent, at best. Again, it was jungle basin, and he did a DT warp -> HT + secure 3rd switch, and I was down since.
TL;DR
Toss have too many options, what with warp prisms *SO UNDERUSED*. Warp in 2 HT right by that PF, storm, and carry them on away. Both safe, and both alive.
Warp in HTs. Upgrades that scale SO incredibly well. Warp in storm ready HTs Easy chrono boost out 2 collsai when I switch to mass marines (due to time ghosts take to build)
I am complaining. I won't say it's at all imbalanced, because early game I can control a lot of the game in open fields, or if I money shot EMP a sentry'ed ramp.
You recharge armies too fast for us to deal with late game.
On December 14 2010 08:06 methematics wrote: warp gates have a cooldown too, im not sure why everyone says " well you can warp in 5 ht and i have to walk my ghost across", this all depends on where your fighting. also you can build more then 1 ghost at a time.
Secondly the best thing agianst ht is battlecruiser (with yahmato). sorry it takes t3 to beat t3, ghost are kinda 50/50 vs ht where the entire battle/game depends on micro. but once you get some bc its over. Im not sure why everyone thinks that they should win when their out teched. theres a great qxc game that shows bc>ht a few post back.
Oh ya, that's viable. What with the 300/200 cost, slow, flying, 2 yamatos at MAX (I think) for an easily 8+ HT army. Not the BEST counter, definitely a big target to at least fly in and pick the rest off.
Leaves your ground army so lacking and light, if you mismicro those zeals take a LOOOONNNNNGGGGG time to kill with a few BCs
On December 14 2010 07:00 Endbringer wrote: I am not complaining about a turtling protoss, I would just like to win the game at some point. That means after I kill his army I have to attack him. Hopefully he has a pylon next to his expo/base...
I have not tried cloaking a ghost or two in between his army and his warp in point. I will try that although I am doubtfull about my ability to win the big fight without those two ghosts. I don't often just have them lying around playing peanuckle Still it is an idea and that's what this thread is for!
Edit- Yay 1.5x the mineral income! That's awesome late game! I am always so mineral starved. Thank god I can build a million marines that all die to storm or a bunch of hellions that actually spontaneously combust in front of a late game army. Mules have nothing to do with this discussion, try reading.
By the time the big fight arrives, I usually have around 4-5 Ghosts. From my experience (only about 100 TvPs, I admit), 2-3 Ghosts mixed into your big army in front is usually enough unless your opponent is a god with Feedback. You want to target HTs that are near the front, then Sentries if they're grouped up, and finally Stalker/Immortals, and try to fire your EMPs that are not aimed at casters slightly after the first volley, so they can't just turn around and run until shields regen.
Alternatively, if you feel you cannot spare the 2 Ghosts, if you can spare 1-2 Dropships of Marauders that can also work, as if you drop into his main as soon as the fight happens (drop the Marauders at the edge of his base with a hotkey of the Dropship and the Marauders, stim the Marauders, then just A-Move on your minimap to the opposite side of the base). In most cases, your opponent will be forced to decide if he wants his Warpgate cycle to be for HTs, or to warp in Zealots to stop your Marauders from trashing his base. This can also indirectly prevent the next wave of HTs, at least a few of them.
Always try to drop a different location/expansion each time you do this, as he'll likely wise up and leave 3-4 Stalkers at your old drop site.
Since Protoss usually does not go air, I try to keep a Dropship or two just hovering outside his bases. If you have the same economy, missing 4 Marauders or 2 Ghosts will not win or lose you a fight, and after you do the drop(s) you don't have to micro, while he is distracted during the more critical moments of the fight, since it's already started. Protoss love big battles but lose at small ones, and since you can constantly send a stream of units while he has bursts of units every 20 seconds or so, if you make him mess up his initial group of warp-ins (ie. commit too many Zealots to fight your Marauder drop), you suddenly have the advantage.
doesnt matter if u manage to emp most of his HTs he just needs 3-4 good storms to rape food capped bio army, also keep in mind that hts are behind P army so to reach them you need to have your ghosts infront exposed to his army. (colo, chargelots etc)
EMP is range 10 while Psionic Storm is range 9, so in order for his HTs to get in range to nuke your army, they have to expose themselves to your Ghosts. Try to aim your EMPs so that the edge of the explosion clips the HTs as they move forward to extend your range slightly further, and you can catch most of the HTs as well as his main army. You will need to fire off your EMPs early in the fight since you cannot stutter step with Ghosts anyway, so do not worry too much if your Ghosts die in the encounter. Try to hit his Templars, if not, EMP his Sentries, and if not, his grouped up Zealots before they charge. Yes, Zealots. This next part is still a hypothesis, since I just tested a few games against a diamond Protoss friend, and don't have a large sample size yet.
You're going mostly Marauders (just general assumption), and you are constantly falling back to dodge Storms/Chargelots. This means that even if you deplete all the shields off his Stalkers, your unit AI will still be targeting his Zealots. On the other hand, if his Zealots die quickly, your Stim'd Marauders can waste Stalkers, even with their shields still up. Without Zealots to push your lines back, you can get closer to him, and that even makes Storms difficult to drop.
Just be sure you have something that's distracting his next warpgate cycle (like a drop), or shutting down his next wave of Templars (like a stray Ghost). Terran has to outmaneuver Protoss lategame, a huge brawl is what Protoss is good at.
On December 14 2010 08:06 methematics wrote: warp gates have a cooldown too, im not sure why everyone says " well you can warp in 5 ht and i have to walk my ghost across", this all depends on where your fighting. also you can build more then 1 ghost at a time.
Secondly the best thing agianst ht is battlecruiser (with yahmato). sorry it takes t3 to beat t3, ghost are kinda 50/50 vs ht where the entire battle/game depends on micro. but once you get some bc its over. Im not sure why everyone thinks that they should win when their out teched. theres a great qxc game that shows bc>ht a few post back.
you cant warp in front of your production queue unlike other races who need to wait, thats a huge difference.
/e im out of here too much of P trolls invaded this topic theres no use to argue with them.
On December 14 2010 07:01 iAmJeffReY wrote: For one cycle of marines/marauder/medic, I get I'll say 3-4 maras, 1 ghost, 4-8 marines x 2 if I include 2 medics. Over a minute of build. They get like 8 HTs, 8 zeals, 1 collsai, 2 stalkers, 1-2 sentry in instant warp lol.r.
That my mara, 1 ghost, 4-8 marines would be x2, so 4-8 maras, 8-16 marines, 2 ghosts (if I wait longer) and 2 medivacs, in that time, warp cycle can be either chronoed, or even still the cycle speed is faster than building a marine, which is 30 seconds. So I'm implying, with real game experience not just theorycraft, that if you don't decimate their army, and land an EMP on their warping in HTs, you will not win. The speed protoss rebuild their army is double that of a terran with chrono boost.
Sure, mules are nice. Use a few DTs to harass, and we can't use mules because we have to save scans for DT run bys.
Finally, I'm surprised at the amount of terrans complaining about protoss being impossible to counterattack after winning a major engagement. What happened to PFs and mass-repair? As a 'toss player, I find that supremely annoying to deal with, and it often stops my advance cold after I win a big fight. Is this not viable at higher levels, or am I missing something?
Well, storm has a range of 9. If i upgrade it, my IMMOBILE PF has a range of 7. They can just storm my workers, meaning I'm shit out of macro luck. Even with mass repair, storm eats the SCVs up and the zealots didn't murder the PF too fast to even repair.
All protoss has to do is trade, trade, trade, and trade and you win. That's simple as that. I fool around on my friends account either high or drunk, it's just now 2k, and I'm 2.5k. I had to actually turn my gameplay on vs a 2200 freakin noobie toss, because he could warp in HTs and zeals and rape up my army. He was decent, at best. Again, it was jungle basin, and he did a DT warp -> HT + secure 3rd switch, and I was down since.
TL;DR
Toss have too many options, what with warp prisms *SO UNDERUSED*. Warp in 2 HT right by that PF, storm, and carry them on away. Both safe, and both alive.
Warp in HTs. Upgrades that scale SO incredibly well. Warp in storm ready HTs Easy chrono boost out 2 collsai when I switch to mass marines (due to time ghosts take to build)
I am complaining. I won't say it's at all imbalanced, because early game I can control a lot of the game in open fields, or if I money shot EMP a sentry'ed ramp.
You recharge armies too fast for us to deal with late game.
On December 14 2010 08:06 methematics wrote: warp gates have a cooldown too, im not sure why everyone says " well you can warp in 5 ht and i have to walk my ghost across", this all depends on where your fighting. also you can build more then 1 ghost at a time.
Secondly the best thing agianst ht is battlecruiser (with yahmato). sorry it takes t3 to beat t3, ghost are kinda 50/50 vs ht where the entire battle/game depends on micro. but once you get some bc its over. Im not sure why everyone thinks that they should win when their out teched. theres a great qxc game that shows bc>ht a few post back.
Oh ya, that's viable. What with the 300/200 cost, slow, flying, 2 yamatos at MAX (I think) for an easily 8+ HT army. Not the BEST counter, definitely a big target to at least fly in and pick the rest off.
Leaves your ground army so lacking and light, if you mismicro those zeals take a LOOOONNNNNGGGGG time to kill with a few BCs
so this is a T saying P is imba because of drops? Also please watch the replay it was a great game (~50 mins hows that for late game tvp)
When did I say they were imba because of drops? Just an easier, more mobile 'proxy pylon' to use that isn't use. They can warp and walk in JUST as easily.
Surviving isn't as hard as winning. You can turtle up and survive. I lost a 47 minute TvP yesterday, and a 37 minuter the day before. If you keep up with tech switches, zealot count, and HTs, you can play long enough to hopefully force a mistake or another PF.
It's enjoyable seeing 'tards pick one sentence out of a whole post to troll on.
I think the hard part on TvP is when to tech and how to tech. For example, if you make a 2 rax select expand, or a 1 rax FE. Do you make 1/2/3/4/+ more rax or do you start taking more gas and teching to starport directly. It really takes alot of practice to see what you can get away with. Scouting protoss is pretty hard when they get their first few stalkers out (hiding tech).
On December 14 2010 08:30 iAmJeffReY wrote: When did I say they were imba because of drops? Just an easier, more mobile 'proxy pylon' to use that isn't use. They can warp and walk in JUST as easily.
Surviving isn't as hard as winning. You can turtle up and survive. I lost a 47 minute TvP yesterday, and a 37 minuter the day before. If you keep up with tech switches, zealot count, and HTs, you can play long enough to hopefully force a mistake or another PF.
It's enjoyable seeing 'tards pick one sentence out of a whole post to troll on.
i singled out the wp statement because both sides have increased mobility with air transports, and both have valuable abilities, perhaps it was unwarrented to accuse you of screaming imba.
im serious with the bc though, its not that unbelievable. look 400min 300 gas is the 100+ the cost of a colo, and both require a special building and are top tier. most p get colo every game. both colo and bc are vulnerable to sniping in small numbers and become godly in large numbers. The benefit to BC vs a ht build is its typically zealot ht which is weak to air, the more stalkers force less ht zealot. once you have 4-5 BC it takes a lot of stalkers to take them down, and if u you maruader in there its pretty even. look tlo beat a zealot templar build with bc, as well as qxc. Also if you open banshee your 1 building away from producing BC, or even if you have medivac for bio, viking for colo, or raven for stalker; your still 1 building away which isnt that unreasonable
look strom is a powerful aoe, for probe harrass terran have blue flame hellion which is similar. for the army you need BC/Thor to deal with it. It seems to me that most of you guys dont want to part from your familiar bio builds, or dont wanna adapt. But storm is designed to counter bio, so i think this attitude (if true) is unwarranted.
Battlecruisers cost 400 minerals and 300 gas, not 300 minerals and 200 gas. Massive difference.
Also, yamato cannon is a facepalm-worthy "answer" to HTs. If you are using spells to deal with templar then both Snipe and EMP are far more resource-efficient and easier to execute (cloak + faster movement speed).
On December 14 2010 08:30 iAmJeffReY wrote: When did I say they were imba because of drops? Just an easier, more mobile 'proxy pylon' to use that isn't use. They can warp and walk in JUST as easily.
Surviving isn't as hard as winning. You can turtle up and survive. I lost a 47 minute TvP yesterday, and a 37 minuter the day before. If you keep up with tech switches, zealot count, and HTs, you can play long enough to hopefully force a mistake or another PF.
It's enjoyable seeing 'tards pick one sentence out of a whole post to troll on.
i singled out the wp statement because both sides have increased mobility with air transports, and both have valuable abilities, perhaps it was unwarrented to accuse you of screaming imba.
im serious with the bc though, its not that unbelievable. look 400min 300 gas is the 100+ the cost of a colo, and both require a special building and are top tier. most p get colo every game. both colo and bc are vulnerable to sniping in small numbers and become godly in large numbers. The benefit to BC vs a ht build is its typically zealot ht which is weak to air, the more stalkers force less ht zealot. once you have 4-5 BC it takes a lot of stalkers to take them down, and if u you maruader in there its pretty even. look tlo beat a zealot templar build with bc, as well as qxc. Also if you open banshee your 1 building away from producing BC, or even if you have medivac for bio, viking for colo, or raven for stalker; your still 1 building away which isnt that unreasonable
look strom is a powerful aoe, for probe harrass terran have blue flame hellion which is similar. for the army you need BC/Thor to deal with it. It seems to me that most of you guys dont want to part from your familiar bio builds, or dont wanna adapt. But storm is designed to counter bio, so i think this attitude (if true) is unwarranted.
Can you link those replays? Are they pre-bc nerf? From my experience and everything I have seen bc's are terrible after the nerf. Stalkers rape them and they are slow as shit and really slow to produce. Its not like bw where 5-10 of them own everything. 5 bc's die to fast to justify slowing your armies movement so drastically.
On December 14 2010 09:13 Pewt wrote: A public service announcement:
Battlecruisers cost 400 minerals and 300 gas, not 300 minerals and 200 gas. Massive difference.
Also, yamato cannon is a facepalm-worthy "answer" to HTs. If you are using spells to deal with templar then both Snipe and EMP are far more resource-efficient and easier to execute (cloak + faster movement speed).
yamato is do drain mana to prevent feedback, and i used iamjefferys numbers on the BC resources (who is presumably terran) since i mainly play p and z. yamatoing the ht is unnecessary, but lowering the energy that can be feedback is advantageous.
EPT
Still it is an idea and that's what this thread is for!
