On December 14 2010 05:26 Offhand wrote: Why is it that every argument about protoss units being too good always comes with the assumption that we have infinite gas?
This discussion is concerning late-game Protoss, and focuses on how Terran cannot let Protoss take his 3rd. If Protoss has a 3rd, that's 6 geysers, which means, yeah, you're gonna be rolling in Gas.
And it's not as if you need 28 Templars or something to decimate a bioball. 4-5 good Storms will do that, and that's 3 fully charged Templars, or 5 just warped. That's... 600 gas in total, which a single Geyser can get in you about 2 minutes.
I think you should read up on units costs and such before making these conclusions. HTs are 50/150 for starters.
I'm aware that they are 50/150. I discount the mineral cost, because you were speaking about infinite Gas, and because there's probably something wrong if people with HT tech cannot shell out 200 minerals, but can shell out 600 gas. And 600 gas = 4 templars = 4 storms on the go, which is enough to drain pretty much all Medivac energy at the very, very least.
Yeah it probably had something to do with the fact that 4 templars aren't mentioned anywhere in your previous post. But good recovery.
My previous post did mention that 4-5 storms require 3 charged Templars or 4-5 newly warped in Templars. Though I admit some people may not make the leap in logic to mean the 600 gas means Templar warp-in cost.
On December 14 2010 06:08 whoopadeedoo wrote: Toss really can't survive late game vs T without storm, but I also recognize with the amulet, it's on the slightly OP side. I really don't know what the patch solution is.
Amulet is good. No one is debating that, but it's not nearly as game changing as charge.
I agree with this completely. Zealots without Charge is pretty much fodder. When the Protoss research Charge is, in my opinion, the turning point when Terran bioballs begin to lose effectiveness.
I propose the following hypothesis: with the map fully exposed (i.e. map hack), protoss would never lose to terran. It is my opinion that protoss can design (and execute very easily) a build which completely shuts terran down if they have the required information. As players continue to develop their innate game sense and timings, protoss' win rate will increase and terran's early game advantage will diminish.
In my own experience and opinion (that of a 2k Terran), TvP is fairly balanced. It isn't 100% there, but I'm not even sure if I could say which side it favored. But this is an evolving game, Blizzard's hardly done with it, and it's not like I'm flailing about desperately in need of effective strategies (as so many are in TvZ).
On December 14 2010 06:29 HalfAmazing wrote: I propose the following hypothesis: with the map fully exposed (i.e. map hack), protoss would never lose to terran. It is my opinion that protoss can design (and execute very easily) a build which completely shuts terran down if they have the required information. As players continue to develop their innate game sense and timings, protoss' win rate will increase and terran's early game advantage will diminish.
You seem to forget that Protoss already have Observers, which are in essence miniature maphacks.
On December 14 2010 06:29 HalfAmazing wrote: I propose the following hypothesis: with the map fully exposed (i.e. map hack), protoss would never lose to terran. It is my opinion that protoss can design (and execute very easily) a build which completely shuts terran down if they have the required information. As players continue to develop their innate game sense and timings, protoss' win rate will increase and terran's early game advantage will diminish.
Yeah, there's a reason we make robos for just obs. Just obs means you can react to most things:
1) Deals with your banshee opening 2) Tells me when we both expand 3) Can react with immortals 4) Bates out vikings
That's probably the most common mistake terran players make. A robo is an increasingly functional building without the need to make collosi. Collosi are too easy managed by marauders and vikings.
Storm and gateway upgrades are really the best way to deal with terran threats.
why are so many protosses posting in here saying how imba op terran is and how we need to learn to play and everything we have counter everything they have, whats the poing of those posts ???
On December 13 2010 23:51 freetgy wrote: So is Ghost after the energie upgrade... HT without 75 energy are useless, while Ghosts are not.
Terran has so much advantage for Early Agression, Attack, delay the enemy Natural while expanding this should always give you an economic advantage, now build up and try some drop harass.
So many good harass options , use it.
HT with Storm and Energie Upgrade is almost the highest Techlevel Protoss can get, if you then are still walking around with M&M sure you gonna die.
+1 there is no possible way to defend everywhere at once. find the cracks and exploit them, fake attacks to zone an enemy. if you find yourself in a straight up 3 base macro game where you haven't done this, you wasted your time.
if both players blindly macro up and 3 base, then sure p>t
if t uses it's mobility advantage all game, I can't see how a 3rd can go down and be saturated safely.
On December 13 2010 23:51 freetgy wrote: So is Ghost after the energie upgrade... HT without 75 energy are useless, while Ghosts are not.
Terran has so much advantage for Early Agression, Attack, delay the enemy Natural while expanding this should always give you an economic advantage, now build up and try some drop harass.
So many good harass options , use it.
HT with Storm and Energie Upgrade is almost the highest Techlevel Protoss can get, if you then are still walking around with M&M sure you gonna die.
+1 there is no possible way to defend everywhere at once. find the cracks and exploit them, fake attacks to zone an enemy. if you find yourself in a straight up 3 base macro game where you haven't done this, you wasted your time.
if both players blindly macro up and 3 base, then sure p>t
if t uses it's mobility advantage all game, I can't see how a 3rd can go down and be saturated safely.
People talking about ghosts have obviously either never tried to user them or just play at a lower level.
First off this post is about late game TvP. I don't care about your thoughts about ghosts early and neither does anyone else. Make a new thread.
Late game even if a protoss is dumb enough to get his templars emp'd that's not the issue. I can't suddenly bust out with 5 extra emp's late in the fight. You just warp in some new templar and storm away. Even if I win the fight when my weakend army gets to your expo you warp in some charge-lots to hold and some templar to storm and my army disappears. Even blizzard has said that templar with the amulet are to hard for terran to counter (see blizcon). In fact if I remember correctly (can't look this up as I am on my phone) didn't blizzard say that TvP is poorly balanced because T>P early and P>T late? So if your contribution to this thread asking how a terran can deal with late game protoss is "lol get ghost newb!!11!" Close your browser and leave the thread.
It seems to me that blue flame hellions are great against zealot-templar but I think its to micro intensive with the rest if your army storm dancing.
On December 14 2010 06:39 Endbringer wrote: People talking about ghosts have obviously either never tried to user them or just play at a lower level.
First off this post is about late game TvP. I don't care about your thoughts about ghosts early and neither does anyone else. Make a new thread.
Late game even if a protoss is dumb enough to get his templars emp'd that's not the issue. I can't suddenly bust out with 5 extra emp's late in the fight. You just warp in some new templar and storm away. Even if I win the fight when my weakend army gets to your expo you warp in some charge-lots to hold and some templar to storm and my army disappears. Even blizzard has said that templar with the amulet are to hard for terran to counter (see blizcon). In fact if I remember correctly (can't look this up as I am on my phone) didn't blizzard say that TvP is poorly balanced because T>P early and P>T late? So if your contribution to this thread asking how a terran can deal with late game protoss is "lol get ghost newb!!11!" Close your browser and leave the thread.
It seems to me that blue flame hellions are great against zealot-templar but I think its to micro intensive with the rest if your army storm dancing.
It seems like you're either fighting next to the proxy pylon, or trying to take his base. Don't fight next to the proxy pylon and don't complain about about another races ability to turtle.
On December 13 2010 23:51 freetgy wrote: So is Ghost after the energie upgrade... HT without 75 energy are useless, while Ghosts are not.
Terran has so much advantage for Early Agression, Attack, delay the enemy Natural while expanding this should always give you an economic advantage, now build up and try some drop harass.
So many good harass options , use it.
HT with Storm and Energie Upgrade is almost the highest Techlevel Protoss can get, if you then are still walking around with M&M sure you gonna die.
+1 there is no possible way to defend everywhere at once. find the cracks and exploit them, fake attacks to zone an enemy. if you find yourself in a straight up 3 base macro game where you haven't done this, you wasted your time.
if both players blindly macro up and 3 base, then sure p>t
if t uses it's mobility advantage all game, I can't see how a 3rd can go down and be saturated safely.
you do know protoss can be agressive also right ?
But most Protoss aren't. The reason for this is that Terran bio can move around much easier than Protoss ground, due to Medivacs, and the fact that in a small scale fight, MMM beats the tar out of Protoss Gateway. To properly utilize FF, you'd need at least 2-3 fully charged Sentries, and even then you still need enough firepower to out-DPS Stim and Medivac heal. This encourages Protoss to fight huge battles with huge armies.
If you always drop into their bases whenever they try to move out, Protoss will never be aggressive, and at 3 base it's hard to defend so they generally just park their army between all three and wait until they're maxed.
Terran depends on aggression and keeping unit counts low for both players in all match-ups, from my experience. You can't just A-Move 200/200 armies into each other against other races and expect to win, unless you only build BCs or something.
Charge is definitely not a gamechanging upgrade. Although increasing zealot's effectiveness, kiting is still easy to do. The biggest problems with tvp are that colossus do too much damage in high numbers, and are too difficult to take down, and that warp in storm and 5+ storms wipe out armies instantly. Also, protoss macro is a lot easier than terran macro, as warping in units allows for protoss to still survive after losing a battle. If Terran loses a battle, the game is pretty much over.
I think that bio is simply not viable. I've played games where i have been maxed, with more bases than protoss, and with bio/mass viking vs 140 supply protoss and still losing because of colossus and warp in storm.
After losing so many games I clearly should not have with bio, i decided to switch up my composition. Mass marine/banshee opening to midgame is very, very strong. It also lets you transition easily to battlecruiser/thor, which I think is going to be the new lategame composition. Here's an example of what I mean:
However, I think my opening is much stronger. Using banshees in as a large part of your army early is much stronger than using them for harass. Once templar come, banshees become rather useless. At that point, the thor/battlecruiser switch is the best thing to do.
I think that saying that anything is overpowered at this point is simply wrong. Zergs complained about reaper openings, and even before the nerf it wasn't strong build because Zergs figured out how to counter it. There's still a lot to explore in TvP. I do think that voidrays need a supply change, as they are by far the highest costing units for the supply. Lategame, assuming that it isn't controlled incorrectly, the army that costs more will win.
On December 14 2010 06:39 Endbringer wrote: People talking about ghosts have obviously either never tried to user them or just play at a lower level.
First off this post is about late game TvP. I don't care about your thoughts about ghosts early and neither does anyone else. Make a new thread.
Late game even if a protoss is dumb enough to get his templars emp'd that's not the issue. I can't suddenly bust out with 5 extra emp's late in the fight. You just warp in some new templar and storm away. Even if I win the fight when my weakend army gets to your expo you warp in some charge-lots to hold and some templar to storm and my army disappears. Even blizzard has said that templar with the amulet are to hard for terran to counter (see blizcon). In fact if I remember correctly (can't look this up as I am on my phone) didn't blizzard say that TvP is poorly balanced because T>P early and P>T late? So if your contribution to this thread asking how a terran can deal with late game protoss is "lol get ghost newb!!11!" Close your browser and leave the thread.
It seems to me that blue flame hellions are great against zealot-templar but I think its to micro intensive with the rest if your army storm dancing.
Have you ever tried to have a cloaked Ghost or two standing between the army v army fight and his base/pylon? I've caught loads of HTs mid-warp in with an EMP that wins me the game that way.
Not even pro level players have Observers placed everywhere, and Templars that are mid-warp cannot FB you. I've also never seen anyone hold enough units back to defend his Templars mid-warp that you cannot even get a single Range 9 EMP in.
On December 14 2010 06:39 Endbringer wrote: People talking about ghosts have obviously either never tried to user them or just play at a lower level.
First off this post is about late game TvP. I don't care about your thoughts about ghosts early and neither does anyone else. Make a new thread.
Late game even if a protoss is dumb enough to get his templars emp'd that's not the issue. I can't suddenly bust out with 5 extra emp's late in the fight. You just warp in some new templar and storm away. Even if I win the fight when my weakend army gets to your expo you warp in some charge-lots to hold and some templar to storm and my army disappears. Even blizzard has said that templar with the amulet are to hard for terran to counter (see blizcon). In fact if I remember correctly (can't look this up as I am on my phone) didn't blizzard say that TvP is poorly balanced because T>P early and P>T late? So if your contribution to this thread asking how a terran can deal with late game protoss is "lol get ghost newb!!11!" Close your browser and leave the thread.
It seems to me that blue flame hellions are great against zealot-templar but I think its to micro intensive with the rest if your army storm dancing.
Have you ever tried to have a cloaked Ghost or two standing between the army v army fight and his base/pylon? I've caught loads of HTs mid-warp in with an EMP that wins me the game that way.
Not even pro level players have Observers placed everywhere, and Templars that are mid-warp cannot FB you. I've also never seen anyone hold enough units back to defend his Templars mid-warp that you cannot even get a single Range 9 EMP in.
realy, what are you doing still posting in this thread, obviously no terran want your oppinion you're just saying some fluff that doesnt help anyone
On December 14 2010 06:39 Endbringer wrote: People talking about ghosts have obviously either never tried to user them or just play at a lower level.
First off this post is about late game TvP. I don't care about your thoughts about ghosts early and neither does anyone else. Make a new thread.
Late game even if a protoss is dumb enough to get his templars emp'd that's not the issue. I can't suddenly bust out with 5 extra emp's late in the fight. You just warp in some new templar and storm away. Even if I win the fight when my weakend army gets to your expo you warp in some charge-lots to hold and some templar to storm and my army disappears. Even blizzard has said that templar with the amulet are to hard for terran to counter (see blizcon). In fact if I remember correctly (can't look this up as I am on my phone) didn't blizzard say that TvP is poorly balanced because T>P early and P>T late? So if your contribution to this thread asking how a terran can deal with late game protoss is "lol get ghost newb!!11!" Close your browser and leave the thread.
It seems to me that blue flame hellions are great against zealot-templar but I think its to micro intensive with the rest if your army storm dancing.
Have you ever tried to have a cloaked Ghost or two standing between the army v army fight and his base/pylon? I've caught loads of HTs mid-warp in with an EMP that wins me the game that way.
Not even pro level players have Observers placed everywhere, and Templars that are mid-warp cannot FB you. I've also never seen anyone hold enough units back to defend his Templars mid-warp that you cannot even get a single Range 9 EMP in.
realy, what are you doing still posting in this thread, obviously no terran want your oppinion you're just saying some fluff that doesnt help anyone
Have you ever tried it? Is 150/150 and 2 supply too much cost to support this? Is there something fundamentally wrong with this strategy?
I am not complaining about a turtling protoss, I would just like to win the game at some point. That means after I kill his army I have to attack him. Hopefully he has a pylon next to his expo/base...
I have not tried cloaking a ghost or two in between his army and his warp in point. I will try that although I am doubtfull about my ability to win the big fight without those two ghosts. I don't often just have them lying around playing peanuckle Still it is an idea and that's what this thread is for!
Edit- Yay 1.5x the mineral income! That's awesome late game! I am always so mineral starved. Thank god I can build a million marines that all die to storm or a bunch of hellions that actually spontaneously combust in front of a late game army. Mules have nothing to do with this discussion, try reading.
Oh man haven't read it all, but have to chime out. I'm 2500 terran, and I used to LOVE TvP as I could 2 base push VERY hard and 65% of the time, win. However, as toss get more epic with their 4 sentry-unstoppable-expo-no-early-aggression-allowed open you're forced into a macro game, where they can pump out a few colosai, you have to be fucking on poooooint, with concaves, stimming, kiting, and picking off colosai, which honestly MMghost/banshe or raven something/viking, does QUITE well against zeal stalker immortal collsai sentry, it's the HT that is the unbeatable part.
As someone said that I read, you HAVE to constantly drop on their base to pick off pylons, tech structures, forges to stop upgrades (zealots are SO dirty with 3/0/3) and on top of that try and deny their inevitable 3rd expansion. If toss gets to 4 base, it's over. Even with a full army, you can't go attack anything but their main, or whatever has the most gateways, as they can and will warp in 8 HTs with storm ready. Sure, I emp and snipe 6 of em, two storms eat up your whole army, and they lost practically nothing.
After you trade armies, at best, they get to warp in instantly, chrono their warpgates, OR their robos to quick tech to collsai. Sure, we get mules, they get an almost instant army. For one cycle of marines/marauder/medic, I get I'll say 3-4 maras, 1 ghost, 4-8 marines x 2 if I include 2 medics. Over a minute of build. They get like 8 HTs, 8 zeals, 1 collsai, 2 stalkers, 1-2 sentry in instant warp lol..Ask any toss, 'you can't tech switch easily' True early in the game which is where we have to pull ahead drastically., but once they sat 2 bases, or take a 3rd, it's lights out. You have to hit in a perfect spot, with as I call them, MONEY SHOOOOOT EMPs, and hope to lord you got all the HTs and the zealots don't run through you.
However, I can't say it's impossible to win late game TvP, if you can lure toss into a good position for a battle, and say cloak in and emp their HTs and then snipe off zealots, you're in good shape to do some quiiiiiick damage with stim marauder rapage.
However. TvP, very hard for me now. Ghosts early, and often seem to make life easier.
On December 14 2010 06:58 ssregitoss wrote: amulet is deadly but you have 1.5x income compare to protoss with mules.what about that?
every toss here is saying how much better the terran has is better but the difference is you make an army and if you win a battle you go atack and win, we make an army and after we win a battle we cant go atack and win cause most of the units are damaged and by the time we get to your base you warpin 3 hts and kill whats left of our army, so basicly there is not much of a chance to win unless you totaly crush his army, which you shouldnt if he has hts and isnt realy bad or he runs out of money
EPT
Still it is an idea and that's what this thread is for!
