Edit: I advice to watch the replays before commenting (especially servyoa vs mana).
Hello teamliquid! Today I decided to watch some TvP replays. I am struggling a lot in TvP since a few weeks and I really hoped that some pro-replays would help me out. I was sure that I was doing something wrong because I read a lot of “TvP is terran favoured”. I decided to watch EmpireKas vs MouzMana and Servyoa vs MouzMana.
The lesson I learned: I am not alone with TvP troubles. EmpiresKas and especially Servyoa played very well and in some games I was 100% sure that they would win. Still they lost. In some games I understood why they lost, but in other games I didn’t.
That’s why I decided to make a thread on teamliquid. My questions for you guys: - how do you feel about TvP? - what could EmpireKas and Servyoa do? - do terrans make wrong unit combinations? - do you think that mech works against protoss (tanks + hellions + thors + Vikings and early game some marines)?
I made a little review about the games, but I advice to watch them by yourself. I didn’t pay attention to Mana’s builds. Sorry for my bad spelling and English.
Kas doesn’t take his gas at 13 and he opens with a 16 CC. He takes his 2 gasses and he starts making a second barracks and a factory. He upgrades stim and he adds a third rax. When Mana’s nexus is almost finished, he flies his CC to his natural. Kas takes his third at 12:00, Mana at 12:30. At 13:51 the fight starts. At that moment Kas had 153 supply, Mana had 141. They had the same amount of probes/scv’s. Mana attacks with a mix of zealots, 8 HT’s, stalkers and sentries. Mana defeats the army of Kas and he warps in some new HT’s + zealots. By the time Kas his new units are out, he lost.
Kas opens a 3rax. At 7:30 Kas moves his army towards Mana. They have the same supply, but mana has 9 more probes, since Kas cutted some scv’s. Mana expanded and he loses his nexus. Mana retreats into his main and he blocks the ramp with a forcefield. Kas loses ¼ of his army. He retreats. Result: 20 scv’s vs 37 probes and protoss lost his nexus. Kas reacts by taking the gold. Mana expands too. At 15:10 we get a fight. Kas has 121 supply, Mana has 121. Result: mana destroys the army of Kas and he moves his units into Kas his base. Kas tried to remake an army but with some zealots and a archon in his base he died.
Kas opens with a 21 CC. Mana pressures Kas and Kas retreats to his main. He saves his second CC. Kas retakes his natural and he does some cliffdropping with tanks. He flies back and the result is 51 scv’s vs 43 probes. At this point kas is 20 supply ahead. Mana takes his third at 16:00. At 16:26 Mana (122 supply) attacks into Kas (141 supply) his mix of tanks, ghosts and MMM. Kas wins and mana retreats. Result: 129 supply for Kas, 84 for Mana. Kas got this I thought! Mana delays Kas his third. A new fight starts at 20:36. Both players have the same supply (155). Kas emp’s some of the HT’s. Mana wins the fight and Kas dies immediately.
Servy opens with a 21 CC. Mana starts his nexus a few minutes later, at 16:17. Servy starts making raxes (total: 5) and he upgrades stim, combat shields and shells. He pressures Mana but Mana held it off. Servy his third at the golds is up at 13:30, Mana starts making his third. At that point Servy is 9 scv’s ahead. Both players have 98 supply. Mana attacks at 14:50 with HT+ gateway units. Servy defends with MMM + ghosts + a planetary fortress. Mana retreats. Result: 124 supply for servy, 93 for mana. Both players are on 3 bases and Servy started his fourth. A few minutes later Mana takes his fourth. Some small battles happen and Servy takes out Mana’s fourth. Servy fights Mana with a 50+ supply difference but he can’t break him. Mana keeps defending, servy keeps on emping HT’s. At 21:54 Servy takes his fifth. Servy takes out Mana’s third and Servy takes his 6th. Servy keeps pressuring but at 26:00 Mana defeats Servy’s army. Mana enters Servy’s base with an archon, zealots and stalkers and Servy dies.
Reactions from topplayers:
On December 13 2010 23:24 4Servy wrote: once protoss has the amulet its gg, its ridic how imba that upgrade is my dog can win with protoss after they got the amulet.
Please do NOT flame and keep it a nice discussion. I putted some work in this thread and I don't want an admin to close it. I advice to watch the replays before commenting.
Im a toss player and I think pvt is pretty balanced. The problem is terrans all in too much and don't practice macro games enough imo. Players like Jinro prove that terran is perfectly fine late game in any matchup, but it takes practice. Jinro has been practicing macro for months, trying to be a reactionary player with good lategame and I think it's safe to say he succeeded. On the other hand players like rain will obviously not beat the likes of tester in a macro game. I think boxers 1rax fe build is pretty good. I would recommend watching some korean pvt from the gomtv allstar tournament, observe their build orders and find one that suits your style: http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=event&id=382
On December 13 2010 22:40 Arcanefrost wrote: Im a toss player and I think pvt is pretty balanced. The problem is terrans all in too much and don't practice macro games enough imo. Players like Jinro prove that terran is perfectly fine late game in any matchup, but it takes practice. Jinro has been practicing macro for months, trying to be a reactionary player with good lategame and I think it's safe to say he succeeded. On the other hand players like rain will obviously not beat the likes of tester in a macro game. I think boxers 1rax fe build is pretty good. I would recommend watching some korean pvt from the gomtv allstar tournament, observe their build orders and find one that suits your style: http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=event&id=382
I don't agree about the allin part. Terrans also try to play a macro game, and especially game 4 (servyoa vs mana) shows this.
Funny how conveniently you choose such replays,i can show you tons of pro replays in where terrans decimate protoss,not to speak what it is the matchup in the highest lvls.True it is terran favored - the facts shows that. As for those matchups,when the two pro players are going at it,we can assume they have almost the same lvl of macro,so it's decided pretty much from unit combinations and in-game decisions as well as micro. Seems to me another QQ thread,learn what in-game decisions and unit combination are good and what are bad at certain cases,then come again QQ-ing about the matchup.I suggest go and find replays where terrans wins(there are so many of them),and then come and post useless threads.That way your time will be better spent,instead of digging 2 or 3 replays where protoss wins because of terran player mistakes.
On December 13 2010 22:49 EasternSun wrote: Funny how conveniently you choose such replays,i can show you tons of pro replays in where terrans decimate protoss,not to speak what it is the matchup in the highest lvls.
Why don't you post some replays then? I challenge you to post 5 of them.
On December 13 2010 22:49 EasternSun wrote: Funny how conveniently you choose such replays,i can show you tons of pro replays in where terrans decimate protoss,not to speak what it is the matchup in the highest lvls.True it is terran favored - the facts shows that. .
which facts? blizzard internal data show that ladder P players win more than T, MC is bragging he has 95% winrate vs terrans and on top of that completly owns jinro 4-0 who is currently arguably one of the best terrans. (also managed to beat foxer in the process aka 1# kr ladder player with insane winrotio).
On December 13 2010 22:49 EasternSun wrote: Funny how conveniently you choose such replays,i can show you tons of pro replays in where terrans decimate protoss,not to speak what it is the matchup in the highest lvls.True it is terran favored - the facts shows that. As for those matchups,when the two pro players are going at it,we can assume they have almost the same lvl of macro,so it's decided pretty much from unit combinations and in-game decisions as well as micro. Seems to me another QQ thread,learn what in-game decisions and unit combination are good and what are bad at certain cases,then come again QQ-ing about the matchup.I suggest go and find replays where terrans wins(there are so many of them),and then come and post useless threads.That way your time will be better spent,instead of digging 2 or 3 replays where protoss wins because of terran player mistakes.
percentage's for tvp heavilly favoured the p in blizzards last realease on every server, so please show me ur facts proving otherwise and stop having a go at someone asking for help without any malice at all.
On December 13 2010 22:40 Arcanefrost wrote: Im a toss player and I think pvt is pretty balanced. The problem is terrans all in too much and don't practice macro games enough imo. Players like Jinro prove that terran is perfectly fine late game in any matchup, but it takes practice. Jinro has been practicing macro for months, trying to be a reactionary player with good lategame and I think it's safe to say he succeeded. On the other hand players like rain will obviously not beat the likes of tester in a macro game. I think boxers 1rax fe build is pretty good. I would recommend watching some korean pvt from the gomtv allstar tournament, observe their build orders and find one that suits your style: http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=event&id=382
There's nothing to gain in a true macro game for T because of amulet templars + warpin. Yeah you can fast expand and all that stuff but once the Templar archives starts the research you might as well pull all SCVs and push because your situation isn't gonna get any better.
I'm not saying P>T because there are certain timing windows T can exploit (and if those are exploited correctly it can make T look really imba) but in a true macro game Toss will most likely win the game.
So yeah if by balanced you mean one race has a really good chance of winning early game and the other will probably win if the game goes late then you're right.
Well, as a T-user, in a TvP what's foremost on my mind is constantly dropping to pick off tech to abuse the immobility of a toss that goes collosus. At some stage in the game you know the time you will need to add vikings and later ghosts. Then you constantly have to be trying to catch their army in an advantageous position for you such that forcefields are somewhat mitigated. I really dont know wat more to say=\ the replays also show only one aspect of the matchup with a favorable result for P.
And as for the viability of mech, well, i guess Thors can b sprinkled in and a couple of tanks. But ive never seen a heavy tank composition beat toss.
Basically, storm is a scary spell, so try to win before that(Y)
Are you guys honestly looking at the winrate of he entire diamond division? That means absolutely nothing. In bw protoss had a high ladder winratio but was the least succesful pro race. In pro games it's 54-46 in terrans favor, which means its pretty well balanced. Mc is best pvt atm, again his stats mean nothing, im sure hes more than 50-50 in pvz too..., he is simpy ten times better than jinro and i dont think anyone can beat mc in pvt atm.
i am a relatively high diamond terran player and i personally think the best way to win tvp (and any other matchup no matter who or what race u are) is to open up with a safe build and just COUNTER WHATEVER THE OPPONENT DOES. for example tvp i usually open by getting 2 rax and expand. BUT if you scout protoss doing early pressure just get stim or/and combat shield (if u see fast void ray) and THEN start ur expo. if u micro well enough u should be able to hold off a few early pushes if ur careful for things like proxy pylons and such.
a game i just played an hour ago was on metalopolis close air positions and i scouted he went fast void ray when i had 2 rax. then i just build 1 more rax and got the infantry ups (stim shield and slow) and was easily able to hold off his void ray harass w/ rines and hold off stalkers w/ rauders. by then i had massed up a large force while his expansion just finished and he only had a void ray and 2 stalkers and having watched day9 i knew the best option was attack so i just 1A'd and won.
now think if he did went something like 2 gate robo expand what would i have done? i would just have gotton 2 rax and get 1 reaper for vision get slow to help micro if he tried to poke and then expand.
if he went dt rush i would do the same thing but get a quick engineering bay and set some turrets.
so i will repeat what i said before. OPEN SAFE AND COUNTER WHATEVER HE DOES. hope it helps
Im a 2300 Diamond T and my main Problem in Tvp is the Zealot.I would say that i play a macro oriented style and i often try to get my 3 up as soon as possible normaly it works good 4me( i open with 1/1/1 sjow style) In the beginning the zelot isnt a big Problem, u can kite it easily and a few tanks shut down most agresion toss can throw at u in the early stages of the game. However when the game last longer i simply die to mass zealot. When both have their 3 up it becomes rly hard 4 me tp spend my mins in time and i often end up having 1000 overmins and 0 gas. Marines just die to collosi or ht in this stage of the game and arent cost effective if u dont mangae to kill all high tier units at the beginning of the fight. The toss however can mass whatever high tech unit he wants and spend his overmins very easily into mass zealot, which once they have legs are the best dps u can get in my opinion. So while im having trouble to counter ht or colossi and spend most my resources into ghosts or vikings, my bioball jsut dies to spammed zealots. The only asnwer i can think of are upgraded Hellions, but they didnt work well 4 me the times i tried them. I only win these kind of games if the toss decides to attack me and i win the fight. If he decides to play defensivly i jsut dont stand a chance, every drop just gets shut down casue he can wrap in 5 lots/hts and defend it till reinforcments arrive-
Tl;dr: Zealots are a way to good mineral dump + the overhelming strengh of high tier toss units makes it nearly impossible 4 me to kill defensive toss palyers Conclusion: Kill him in 15 min or die
I've been struggling a lot with TvP recently and feel like the games I win are either early game or when Protoss assumes that the Terran player will just give up and attack move into Zealot/HT if it gets to the late game. I've found that you can't beat a supply-equal Protoss army (so don't let them get to 200/200) or a base-equal Protoss player since Zealots and HTs are so cost efficient (Immortals too since you can't really use Marines against an HT-tech Protoss, but that's a result of HTs and not Immortals themselves), so you have to basically rally units to their base and be constantly keeping their food lower.
(Everything following this applies purely to the late 2base-3base period and beyond)
As for army composition, I mostly use pure Marauder (upgrade early and often!) for my ground force, with a few Ghosts (for EMP, also more on these later) and Vikings (in case they try to tech switch to air and/or resume Colossus production, as well as a cloud of Medivacs. In theory you will only need a medivac per ten or so Marauders (especially since they rarely die) since if you are kiting properly the Zealots won't get a very good surface area, but in reality you'll be running out of energy a lot (especially since you will be near-constantly stimmed) and a competent Protoss player will use feedback early and often. I've toyed with EMPing HTs, but unless I see a huge clump of them I don't bother since it's basically a lost cause once Khaydarin Amulet is out, and I instead save EMP for clumps of shield-heavy units (stalkers, archons, colossi if I don't have a bunch of Vikings, any air units, etc). If none of those units are out, I save my energy for cloak (more on this later).
I also like to get some Banshees late game and use them in combination with Vikings. If the Protoss player is good then they will carpet storm your cloaked banshees but you can still do some serious damage as long as you make sure to snipe all their observers first so that the HTs can't feedback you the instant they see your banshees and prevent cloaking. You also might be able to get away with them if you have so many Marauders that Stalkers aren't really an option for the Protoss, although in that case they should be making Phoenix regardless.
Marines: Obviously great early game, and a waste of money late game. I'd rather be banking 3000 minerals than have 60 Marines, although Marauders are mineral-heavy enough that you shouldn't really be banking much.
Marauders: Basically the core of your army all game. Not that great against most Protoss units (Zealots, Immortals, HTs mostly) but a lot better than Marines by virtue of not dying instantly, and in general more versatile and efficient than other units against the Protoss ground army.
Reapers: Haven't really had any use for these guys.
Ghosts: Obviously EMP, but as I said I don't stress about EMPing single high templar. I usually get 2-3 Ghost Academies if it goes for a very late game and start using them for cloak+nuke since if you drop several nukes and engage at the same time it can have the same effect as drops--they can't divide their attention everywhere, so you are guaranteed to do some damage, and as it happens nukes tend to be a lot harder to spot and a lot more devastating than drops are.
Hellions: Good for mineral line harass, but surprisingly underwhelming against Zealot/HT compared to how you'd think they'd perform based on theory. I'd prefer to have pure Marauder for my main army in most situations, but I think I could experiment more with a hellion flank while my Marauder ball is engaging. Storm is also annoying since the fact that these are mechanical makes repairing damage a huge hassle, so you're probably better off suiciding them into random mineral lines once they take significant damage.
Tanks: Basically worse against everything they counter than Marauders are and countered harder by everything that counters Marauders, not to mention they lock you down mobility-wise. I don't see any reason to get tanks in this matchup past some early game tank drop shenanigans.
Thors: Pretty good, but really slow and once again they seem worse against (almost?) everything than Marauders are, largely because they can't kite. I don't make them unless the Protoss wants to try to abuse my lack of antiair and thus need some support for my Vikings against enemy Phoenix (which essentially never happens).
Medivacs: Keep a giant cloud of these above your Marauders at all times. They are essential for survival while constantly stimming and kiting, they rarely die, and they let you do drops when you get the opportunity.
Vikings: Work great in synergy with Banshees to snipe Observers, but I wouldn't keep more than a few around unless the Protoss is making air and/or Colossi.
Banshees: Decent in direct combat although the real killer is that they have their own set of upgrades that are kind of useless otherwise. If you can keep their Observer count down you should be able to force a bunch of cannons and in general cause pain for the lack of safe Protoss mobile detection until they start adding a lot of Phoenix to their army.
Ravens: Basically useless once HTs come out but really good until then. You might want to experiment with keeping an EMPed raven around to save scan energy when hunting Observers.
Battlecruisers: Seem awful post-damage nerf, but there might be some use for a couple Battlecruisers behind your Marauder ball if you catch them without any decent amount of anti-air. However, I suspect that anything that Battlecruisers can do, Banshees can do better.
This is all against ~2000-2500 Protoss (practice partners + ladder), so it obviously isn't gospel so much as my experiences with the matchup in the past few weeks.
On December 13 2010 23:05 Arcanefrost wrote: Are you guys honestly looking at the winrate of he entire diamond division? That means absolutely nothing. In bw protoss had a high ladder winratio but was the least succesful pro race. In pro games it's 54-46 in terrans favor, which means its pretty well balanced. Mc is best pvt atm, again his stats mean nothing, im sure hes more than 50-50 in pvz too..., he is simpy ten times better than jinro and i dont think anyone can beat mc in pvt atm.
Ya.... um TBH the win rate definitely means something, even if it's all of diamond or not.
Where are you getting this 54-46? (pro games? not very specific)
MC is a good Protoss whole bit about him being best PvT well that's debatable.
Both TvP and TvZ I try to hit this critical timing window before Storm, eventually Zerg's macro kicks in.. Then its straight downhill right from there and Im never able to catch up no matter what.
It seems like mech would be a good transition for late game, but it lacks answer to Protoss air and Zerg tech switches.
I dont like this current state of the game as it really seems to be like "win in 12-15 minutes or give up", but what can you do.. :-)
TvP is balanced in a strange way. Terran has the advantage until you reach the late game. If you let a Protoss player take a third base then you are dead.
You need to use a timing attack to destroy the Protoss natural. The scary Protoss units are HT and Colossi, which realistically require two bases or more.
So is Ghost after the energie upgrade... HT without 75 energy are useless, while Ghosts are not.
Terran has so much advantage for Early Agression, Attack, delay the enemy Natural while expanding this should always give you an economic advantage, now build up and try some drop harass.
So many good harass options , use it.
HT with Storm and Energie Upgrade is almost the highest Techlevel Protoss can get, if you then are still walking around with M&M sure you gonna die.
On December 13 2010 23:51 freetgy wrote: So is Ghost after the energie upgrade...
HT without energy upgrade are useless.
Ghost needs to fucking walk 1 at time while your warped-in templars storm and feedback just about everything in 5 seconds..
Doesnt sound balanced to me comparing to ghosts..
edit: We are not talking here about early game.. Everyone knows Terran is strong with bio early game and has lots of harrasment options. But since everyone wants bigger maps and those all-ins will die eventually, guess what happens..
I play about 2000 diamond terran, After watching those games, and through my experience I think the only thing thats not really balanced in PVT are templars. Once the templar count and upgrades finish, in a macro game, you literally cannot win unless you are 10x better than the opponent.
From my own experience: Yesterday I was up 2 bases on a toss and up 50 food, I attacked with Bio, Raven, Banshee, which will flatten non templar toss armies for the most part. I got stormed and feedbacked to death. Because I was up so many bases, I was able to macro and rebuilt, Bio, medivac, BCs, then I emp'd my BC's so they wouldnt get feedbacked, and He still stormed all my units into the ground. (you cant move BCS out of storm, and if there are enough storms combined with stalker fire BCS will fall fairly quickly). while I was trying to EMP the templar he would just warp in more and throw down 8 More storms. He then slowly expanded, and I couldnt stop him because every time i tried to push, storm would just smash my face.
In a last ditch effort I switched into Thors, + bio for support and a couple of BCS, this faired a little better, but since he had absolutely smashed me twice before and was now on even bases, I was still taking unfavorable army trades. He then pushed in with Mass stalker, Zealot, Templar and a mothership and wiped the floor with my 200/200 Thor, Marauder, BC army and won the game.
Im not saying a better terran couldnt have pressured his slow expanding better, but like I said, you need to be a way better player than the opponent to effectively harass anything when he can just warp in templar anywhere and storm you.
Now, that said, I acknowledge that there is a hugely strong timing window to attack before amulet is finished where you can push with a raven and wipe the floor with any stalker heavy army(which most toss armies are). But if you dont hit that window and he is able to stabilize his templar count, you are in so much trouble. I would much rather face mass colossus than templar.
But thats my lowly opinion, and of course Im sure lots of protoss players will disagree
Early pressure to set up my own FE and hold the P back as long as possible. After turtling from mid to lategame i use pure Marauder Medivac Viking combinations. Did not loose much games when i survived the midgame push. Pushing through with stim marauder works well even if P gets storms.
Storm is good for the same reason Tanks are good.. Once you get sufficient numbers, its extremly cost effective. Units clumping in SC2 are really food for splash damage.
The only difference is, Tanks were nerfed to death..
Does Mech actually work in TvP? perhaps like in SCBW, tanks helions?? It seems quite logical theoretically, with the same concept as SCBW, tanks>stalkers while helions>zeals, while tanks>colosus too. But T now has no mines. so perhaps the biggest problem of mech is that the mobility is even worse than in SCBW due to not having mines to control the map. And maybe Voids is a really big problem to this mech style. Is 80 damage storm really significant to mech? HTs doesnt seem to be effective against mech, so amulet upgrade wouldn't be much of a problem then?? Im not sure about all my points. All i know is that i dint have much success with mech build in TvP, so i think perhaps its my controls which are bad. What do u all think??
On December 14 2010 00:01 Everlong wrote: Storm is good for the same reason Tanks are good.. Once you get sufficient numbers, its extremly cost effective. Units clumping in SC2 are really food for splash damage.
The only difference is, Tanks were nerfed to death..
Tanks also have a really strong, reliable counter. You can lift them with pheonixes. You know you got all the tanks because they don't move. High templar... you can get so many (because the same buildings you use to make your main composition, you can just as well use to make high templar) and they can move and be sprinkled in places you won't think to EMP.
IN addition, doesn't storm do 80 damage over x seconds over that giant area? Not only is that more damage than a tank, but it can potentially one-shot your marines, especially if you're using stim.
I'm inclined to believe that we just can't remain using infantry in the end game. But what other good compositions are there? I think I'm going to experiment with tanks and hellions.... perhaps ghosts and marauders as well, to absorb damage and do spells.
On December 14 2010 00:04 weiliem wrote: Does Mech actually work in TvP? perhaps like in SCBW, tanks helions?? It seems quite logical theoretically, with the same concept as SCBW, tanks>stalkers while helions>zeals, while tanks>colosus too. But T now has no mines. so perhaps the biggest problem of mech is that the mobility is even worse than in SCBW due to not having mines to control the map. And maybe Voids is a really big problem to this mech style. Is 80 damage storm really significant to mech? HTs doesnt seem to be effective against mech, so amulet upgrade wouldn't be much of a problem then?? Im not sure about all my points. All i know is that i dint have much success with mech build in TvP, so i think perhaps its my controls which are bad. What do u all think??
But overall is it workable using map in TvP??
In SC2 it doesnt work like this.. If you run your mech into chargelots, Immortals and anything from Protoss air tech, you are basically dead within few seconds.
I dont think warp-in 75 mana templars are what make this matchup hard at all... You need to enter into late-game with some kind of advantage but thats ok as long as this advantage can reasonably be acquired - I think on some maps thats just not the case however.
Lots of ghost harass (nukes), spreading army and lots of pressure makes it ok, for the most part.
On December 14 2010 00:04 weiliem wrote: Does Mech actually work in TvP? perhaps like in SCBW, tanks helions?? It seems quite logical theoretically, with the same concept as SCBW, tanks>stalkers while helions>zeals, while tanks>colosus too. But T now has no mines. so perhaps the biggest problem of mech is that the mobility is even worse than in SCBW due to not having mines to control the map. And maybe Voids is a really big problem to this mech style. Is 80 damage storm really significant to mech? HTs doesnt seem to be effective against mech, so amulet upgrade wouldn't be much of a problem then?? Im not sure about all my points. All i know is that i dint have much success with mech build in TvP, so i think perhaps its my controls which are bad. What do u all think??
But overall is it workable using map in TvP??
Not really because: - Many maps dont allow it - No good detection options - No good early anti-air options - Too fucking slow and vulnerable to counters on most maps - Carriers.
Playing mech TvP seems to end up with either a really long game where you die to carriers or void rays, or a really short game where you try to attack before you are maxed or whatever and die, or get countered or something.
If protoss doesnt build carriers or void rays, yeah 200/200 in siege tank, hellion, ghost is gonna decimate anything. I think mech isnt viable as a primary play style at the moment.
I've watched tons and tons of TvP's recently, and it's always the same story.
Terran goes MM and does well until Colossi are out, once Terran gets Vikings the battlefield evens out again and it becomes a positioning battle. When Toss gets Templar with storm out Terran's army is suddenly worthless.
Ghosts are simply not enough to handle Templar in the games that I've seen. Chances of hitting all Templars with EMP are basically zero and even one storm can severely hurt a stimmed bioball.
I wouldn't really want Storm to get nerfed since it's just so fun to watch good storms save the day, plus it is rarely used in PvZ and PvP already. I'd like Blizzard to put tanks back at 50 damage versus everything so a transition into pure mech becomes viable again. MnM just gets so boring to watch, especially those retarded marauders. Mech is just way more fun to watch and way more viable once storm is out.
PS. give Terran their goliaths, they're badass and can actually shoot air
On December 14 2010 00:16 Liquid`Jinro wrote: I dont think warp-in 75 mana templars are what make this matchup hard at all...
I wish he had closed the thread on this note.
Anyway, QXC and Kiwikaki played a series earlier this week in a tournament. I cannot recall which, sorry.
Qxc did this marvelous thing in the late game. He transitioned out of bio. Wow! Banshee, raven, BC, thor, marine. Incredible. Eighty damage on a thor doesn't seem to do much.
The match up has not been explored enough yet. Try out something other than mmm/viking with some tanks.
And hell, I see plenty of protoss users lose to this. It's the evolution of a game where someone has to win and the other player has to lose.
See MLG (dallas?) where select beats a larage number of protoss players one after the other. Most of the games last 20-25 minutes.
On December 14 2010 00:20 Saechiis wrote: I've watched tons and tons of TvP's recently, and it's always the same story.
Terran goes MM and does well until Colossi are out, once Terran gets Vikings the battlefield evens out again and it becomes a positioning battle. When Toss gets Templar with storm out Terran's army is suddenly worthless.
Ghosts are simply not enough to handle Templar in the games that I've seen. Chances of hitting all Templars with EMP are basically zero and even one storm can severely hurt a stimmed bioball.
I wouldn't really want Storm to get nerfed since it's just so fun to watch good storms save the day, plus it is rarely used in PvZ and PvP already. I'd like Blizzard to put tanks back at 50 damage versus everything so a transition into pure mech becomes viable again. MnM just gets so boring to watch, especially those retarded marauders. Mech is just way more fun to watch and way more viable once storm is out.
PS. give Terran goliaths, they're badass.
Oh man, how Id love to see this happening.. But Blizz wont let die one unit (Viking) to make another one see the light of life.
I have a lot of trouble vs. Terran early game, I need to have really good force fields to prevent kiting and trade armies, and only minor trouble late game, once I get DT's HT with Amulet out and they are going heavy Bio.
I think theres something wrong with this. I have no idea how it would be adjusted that early Terran pushes are weakened, but their late game vs. Protoss is a bit stronger.
I do think Terrans need to start incorporating more Pre-Ignitor Hellions into their play, they kill Zealots and High Templar so fast (Which if you keep Colossus count low, should be the majority of the Protoss' force once amulet is done). A kill squad of ~6 Hellions to flank and snipe HT or just to smack some damage down on Zealots is pretty insane.
On December 14 2010 00:20 Saechiis wrote: I've watched tons and tons of TvP's recently, and it's always the same story.
Terran goes MM and does well until Colossi are out, once Terran gets Vikings the battlefield evens out again and it becomes a positioning battle. When Toss gets Templar with storm out Terran's army is suddenly worthless.
Ghosts are simply not enough to handle Templar in the games that I've seen. Chances of hitting all Templars with EMP are basically zero and even one storm can severely hurt a stimmed bioball.
I wouldn't really want Storm to get nerfed since it's just so fun to watch good storms save the day, plus it is rarely used in PvZ and PvP already. I'd like Blizzard to put tanks back at 50 damage versus everything so a transition into pure mech becomes viable again. MnM just gets so boring to watch, especially those retarded marauders. Mech is just way more fun to watch and way more viable once storm is out.
PS. give Terran their goliaths, they're badass and can actually shoot air
Im not sure pure mech is possible when the void ray is as strong as it is and there is no reasonable detection vs DTs (basically wed need spidermine and goliaths back). I dont think the tank damage is the main problem, light units are roasted by blueflame hellions anyway.
On December 13 2010 23:05 Arcanefrost wrote: Are you guys honestly looking at the winrate of he entire diamond division? That means absolutely nothing. In bw protoss had a high ladder winratio but was the least succesful pro race. In pro games it's 54-46 in terrans favor, which means its pretty well balanced. Mc is best pvt atm, again his stats mean nothing, im sure hes more than 50-50 in pvz too..., he is simpy ten times better than jinro and i dont think anyone can beat mc in pvt atm.
LOL. Your statement only makes sense... if you are a pro-gamer. Obviously, one race is easier to play well at diamond and below and it would otherwise require pro-gamer level micro to equalize.
On December 13 2010 23:51 freetgy wrote: HT with Storm and Energie Upgrade is almost the highest Techlevel Protoss can get, if you then are still walking around with M&M sure you gonna die.
Ugh, this argument is incredibly common and frustrates me every time I see it. Terran players use other units in other matchups, so it's not as if they are averse to using other units. However, what other units would you suggest against Protoss? Marauders are just by far the most efficient unit against Protoss (also Marines before AoE comes out).
Also, Starcraft 2 is not a game where Tier 3 > Tier 2 > Tier 1. Should me making Factory units automatically make Zealots useless?
On December 14 2010 00:36 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Im not sure pure mech is possible when the void ray is as strong as it is and there is no reasonable detection vs DTs (basically wed need spidermine and goliaths back). I dont think the tank damage is the main problem, light units are roasted by blueflame hellions anyway.
What are your opinions on an optimal late game army composition? As I said in my post earlier in this thread, I mainly go for a massive Marauder/Medivac ball with a lot of kiting and Ghosts/Vikings for support/harassment, and occasionally Banshees to snipe random Templar while I use Vikings to kill Observers. Do you feel that there is any stage of the game at which you can reasonably leave bio-centric play and hope to win on most maps?
I'd definitely agree that one of the most difficult things about trying to go mech in TvP is the lack of any decent anti-air against void rays. Literally the only good unit to not die to them are marines. Thors and Vikings are awful generally. I'm also always really worried about the P seeing mech play and just making more Immortals than usual.
It really saddens me that every single T matchup is reduced to MMM + maybe 1 or 2 other units peppered in and that's it. It's so boring to both play and watch, but there really is just no transition or alternate army composition that you can do that is as effective.
I've been thinking for awhile now that they should nerf the marauder in some way (health or damage), and then buff the tank, maybe adding more +damage vs armored to bring it up to how it was in BW (70 to large, 35 to small).. maybe 60 or 65 damage total to armored units instead of just 50. That doesn't fix the issue with dealing with void rays, but at least it would be a start to make tanks actually seem scary in the early game as they did in BW instead of complete pushovers.
If Protoss gets to the midgame on equal economic terms or maybe slightly weaker than terran, Protoss should win every time unless they make an atrocious mistake.
Blizzard knows this, we all know this, I honestly don't understand the necessity for another thread.
The only way to consistently win TvP is to execute 2-base timing pushed geared to killing or severely crippling protoss as they transition to midgame, and then use ghost's emps to preemptively stop the threat of psi storm.
The key to my lategame play is the BC. Unlike banshees, BCs fare quite well against HTs because of their high health. BCs also perform well against stalker. In fact, I believe that protoss has no hard-counter to the BCs.
On December 14 2010 00:16 Liquid`Jinro wrote: I dont think warp-in 75 mana templars are what make this matchup hard at all...
I wish he had closed the thread on this note.
On December 14 2010 00:51 KiLL_ORdeR wrote: Blizzard knows this, we all know this, I honestly don't understand the necessity for another thread.
Why do people see discussions as something bad? Why can't we have a nice discussion about the possibilities of T against P? The purpose of a discussion is to bring eachother to a higher level. As long as we don't flame eachother I don't see a problem.
On December 14 2010 00:16 Liquid`Jinro wrote: I dont think warp-in 75 mana templars are what make this matchup hard at all... You need to enter into late-game with some kind of advantage but thats ok as long as this advantage can reasonably be acquired - I think on some maps thats just not the case however.
Isn't it kinda weird for you that you have to enter into lategame with an advantage? You actually need to almost win the game, then enter into lategame and then finnish it off?
What makes this matchup hard in your opinion and what would be the sollution? Do you like playing with MMM + viking + ghosts?
I really hate it that I'm forced to play MMM. I have to do a ton of (lucky) drops and then I MAYBE have a chance to win.
I agree that hts with the energy upgrade are so strong, watching Kas army beeing decimated by 3-4 storms was painful to watch, especially on LT when he cloacked his ghosts and sniped 5-6 templars, guess what ? 5s later there were 5 hts warped in ... I'm not saying it's imba but it's really hard as terran to handle mass storms
The key to my lategame play is the BC. Unlike banshees, BCs fare quite well against HTs because of their high health. BCs also perform well against stalker. In fact, I believe that protoss has no hard-counter to the BCs.
As far as I know this composition is very slow, you'll have a hard time against a mass void ray + a few templars.
With flux vanes it's possible to destroy/harass terran expos without taking many risks. Once u reach a critical number no amount of turrets will prevent the void ray harass. However this seems to be an ok strategy on maps like Jungle basin provided u reach the late game. As a protoss I think some terran mech units (be it air or ground) should be quicker.
The key to my lategame play is the BC. Unlike banshees, BCs fare quite well against HTs because of their high health. BCs also perform well against stalker. In fact, I believe that protoss has no hard-counter to the BCs.
As far as I know this composition is very slow, you'll have a hard time against a mass void ray + a few templars.
With flux vanes it's possible to destroy/harass terran expos without taking many risks. Once u reach a critical number no amount of turrets will prevent the void ray harass. However this seems to be an ok strategy on maps like Jungle basin provided u reach the late game. As a protoss I think some terran mech units (be it air or ground) should be quicker.
I don't see how his composition could hope to beat something along the lines of Phoenix/Void/Stalker/HT (yes, it's gas heavy but so is his composition) assuming competent storms and feedbacks, but I'll withhold judgement until I see it in action. That said, I don't think there's a point in judging a strategy's effectiveness based on how it performs against Flux Vanes seeing as they are removed as of next patch.
On December 14 2010 00:20 Saechiis wrote: I've watched tons and tons of TvP's recently, and it's always the same story.
Terran goes MM and does well until Colossi are out, once Terran gets Vikings the battlefield evens out again and it becomes a positioning battle. When Toss gets Templar with storm out Terran's army is suddenly worthless.
Ghosts are simply not enough to handle Templar in the games that I've seen. Chances of hitting all Templars with EMP are basically zero and even one storm can severely hurt a stimmed bioball.
I wouldn't really want Storm to get nerfed since it's just so fun to watch good storms save the day, plus it is rarely used in PvZ and PvP already. I'd like Blizzard to put tanks back at 50 damage versus everything so a transition into pure mech becomes viable again. MnM just gets so boring to watch, especially those retarded marauders. Mech is just way more fun to watch and way more viable once storm is out.
PS. give Terran their goliaths, they're badass and can actually shoot air
Im not sure pure mech is possible when the void ray is as strong as it is and there is no reasonable detection vs DTs (basically wed need spidermine and goliaths back). I dont think the tank damage is the main problem, light units are roasted by blueflame hellions anyway.
Protoss air and mass expand is what I've seen as Toss responses to mech. I don't feel DT's are as much the problem, rather the fact that Vikings are the only real counter to armored Toss air and their unimpressive showing when landed.
The Viking is one those units you pretty much only build because you have to, they're built in response to Voidrays, Colossi, Carriers, BC's, Broodlords and when they're done .. they're done. I'm hoping for the return of the goliath (event hough it looks silly in SC2) or a buff to Thor damage. They should just remove the splash and give the Thor significant damage against both armored and light. This would ephasize on upgrading your mech since the Thor's air attack scales so nicely, double armory build gogogo ^_^
Edit: or let 250mm cannon hit air.
And Jinro, you should really go on State of the Game sometime. That show really needs an objective Terran like you once in a while to poke through the Protoss bias
It feels to me that Terrans have no good lategame units. Thor << Colossus, as Thor reduce both mobility and microability of your army, while Colossus is like its not even there - doesnt reduce anything, just adds insane firepower. Protoss have better spells. And HTs are even worse than banelings - even if you get only 2 of them where you want, they kill everything. BCs are really good (except feedback), but unsless you have like 20 of them they can be handled quite ok, before you have that 20 its again really slow and can not be microed w/o loosing too much DPS (unlike carriers). Vikings are good AA, but thats pretty much it, once you get rid of air you have nothing that just useless flying jokes (unlike VR which are weaker to air but 1000000 times more useful in general). Banshees I dont know, well they are good even in big numbers and not just harass, but again... Feedback and non air-air. Ghosts - not so good fighters, but true is that EMP sometimes rocks even as much as FF against regular units, and against specialized - well they are just awesome.
Still it feels to me that tanks and ghosts are only good TvP lategame units, maybe banshee. I see a lot of weakness in this combo
I'm probably wrong, but it seems like early ghosts would solve a whole lot of the problems I've seen in TvP replays, lately. Personally, I find a ghost or two handy vs. any composition. I still need vikings vs. collosus but even then is does massive DPS to shields and helps keep me from getting raped by FFs. I also believe in walling in vs toss - call me crazy.
I think one of the biggest terran problem in the late game is the add-ons of structures being required to build anything but a marine, viking/medivac, or hellion. These add-ons COST MONEY, are very easily destroyed, and cost production time too. Protoss have it easy - warp gates are FREE (aside from a ridiculously low cost of 50 min/50 gas from a structure they will build anyway) and only take 10 seconds to morph. In return, they allow the protoss to spawn their units anywhere they have a pylon and reduces their production time significantly, so they get the units when they need them, where they need them. Fighting a battle at the protoss base is such a PITA because reinforcements are so quick, and when those reinforcements are 75 energy HTs, it becomes tough. Protoss cost for 10 warpgates - 150x10 = 1500. Build time = 75 seconds per warpgate. Terran cost for 10 barracks, if they want to make ghosts/marauders instead of fragile marines = 150x10 = 1500 + 50x10 = 500 + A GAS COST: 25x10 = 250. Build time = 60 seconds per barracks, 25 seconds per tech lab. 85 seconds per structure. EDIT: Forgot to do the math for people - if you count gas as 2x minerals, that is a cost of 2500 versus 1500. 1000 minerals advantage for the protoss is A LOT, especially considering protoss can make probes a lot faster than terran can make scvs. Not to mention this is only with 10 rax. It just goes uphill from there, and in late game it is not unheard of for the protoss to have 15ish gates. I am not even going to go into reactors, because honestly, 9 times out of 10, it is better to just build another barracks. It takes 50 seconds (almost the entire time it takes to build a barracks) and 50 minerals/50 gas, if you count gas as double minerals like most people, is the same cost. Except that you cant use your current barracks until the reactor is finished. Reactor is only close to cost efficient on starports and factories, and even then, it is only good if you lift off/land to attach.
A possible fix for this, without breaking early game, Blizzard should have Tech Reactors (from the campaign) as a research from a Fusion Core (research cost of 50/50 maybe?). Tech Reactors should cost 75/75 and have a build time of 40s. There should also be an "upgrade into tech reactor" option for normal reactors and tech labs, costing 30s and the difference in cost (25 mins, 50 gas for tech labs; 25 mins, 25 gas for reactors). Only problem with this, is that it may break terran airfleet; but not really because starports only cost 150/100 as is and only take 60 secs to build. Looking at only gas cost (because in late game, minerals are easy to get anyways) - it is only about 75 gas cheaper than current form. EDIT: Another thing this does is reduce the ridiculous amount of room terran structures take up because they have to have add-ons. Gateways end up being a lot smaller than the terran sim-city addon buildings - with tech reactors, 6 barrax, 6 tech reactors are equal to 12 barracks, 12 tech labs. Which is just a little bit smaller than 12 gateways take up.
Yea the only way I seem to win TvPs lately is the allin rain did v genious with ~20 marines, 4 tanks, 3 banshees, a raven and pull a bunch of scv to repair and build bunkers, playing a macro game once they get templar I just can't seem to win and doing some kind of early tech build VR pushes just own me so bad since I usualy dont have stim yet
I think terrans get too greedy with medvacs, protoss really only has the advantage, imo, in the early midgame when 3 collussus or high temps are out, and extreme late game because of khaideren amulet.
On December 14 2010 00:16 Liquid`Jinro wrote: I dont think warp-in 75 mana templars are what make this matchup hard at all... You need to enter into late-game with some kind of advantage but thats ok as long as this advantage can reasonably be acquired - I think on some maps thats just not the case however.
Isn't it kinda weird for you that you have to enter into lategame with an advantage? You actually need to almost win the game, then enter into lategame and then finnish it off?
What makes this matchup hard in your opinion and what would be the sollution? Do you like playing with MMM + viking + ghosts?
I really hate it that I'm forced to play MMM. I have to do a ton of (lucky) drops and then I MAYBE have a chance to win.
Its like TvZ in SC1 once defilers are out (tho I think in recent times, ridiculous players like flash might have made that less true than it once was, I dunno).
On December 14 2010 01:42 Smackzilla wrote: I'm probably wrong, but it seems like early ghosts would solve a whole lot of the problems I've seen in TvP replays, lately. Personally, I find a ghost or two handy vs. any composition. I still need vikings vs. collosus but even then is does massive DPS to shields and helps keep me from getting raped by FFs. I also believe in walling in vs toss - call me crazy.
I agree, and its something Ive been experimenting with the last couple of days.
- Mobile detection? Check. - Good vs aggression? Well it depletes sentries mana..... - Good vs passive play? Well, it depletes sentries mana.....
with low tech air units now being pretty good, mech isn't working quite well alone, since the thor anti air is more a hinderance then a help most of the time. Its hard to get anti air out fast enough with mech. Vikings are something like a nerfed goliaths, since you have to land and lift them with a perfect timing (and need air upgrades). They are kinda of a must have addition if you go for mech play. (provide anti air + high attack ratio). Also they are not too gas heavy. Mech is in my opionion to gas heavy to play alone, if hellions could harass more effectiv it wouldn't be that much of a problem, but because of warp in and zerg highspeed zerg units it don't work. In TvT hellions are great to waste mins, since they can outrun every unit and deal damage to the eco. (kind of to much though if the enemy doesn't see it coming).
Makes TvT my most favorite match up since mech works quite okay there.
Against this zealot problem i read on the first side, if they go colossi with lots of zealots i get alot of vikings to snipe the colossi and get air armor, when the colossi are down (2 side viking attack) i land the vikings, perfect tanks and damage dealers against zealots. If i they look like a templar going toss, i normally get tanks and add hellions. And have 2 groups of hellions at the side of my tank line, if the zealots charge at the tank i only have to move my hellions a litte and its a grillfest ^^, afterwards i waste my hellions to hunt down templar.
Also like to make some ninja attacks with my hellion if my enemy is moving since most people are moving their templar so they clump (and often behind their army) and well hellions like clumped hts hehe. (dunno why they move them like that, but makes it easier so i won't complain)
I think mech is just a bit too gas/supply heavy to work on its own, so terran has to stick with his t1 units since the evil t3 units are to slow and to easy to outrun.
The root of the problem with terran is that bio is very strong, and there's nothing as strong to transition into. Mech is just abysmal against anything in the air, and it's not really feasible to mass air units. The Thor is the only factory unit that even has any anti air whatsoever, and it deals only 16 dps against what it is best against. And only 8 dps against armored air, before armor reduction on its four projectiles. The thor's anti air is garbage- literally one stimmed marine is more effective, and it costs 300/200/6. As a result a mech build will, if it doesn't get beaten on the ground, get henpecked to death by just a couple air units.
There's just nothing else to build right now as your main army apart from tons of infantry, which colossi and psi storm just wreck. Infantry are so strong, however, and they overshadow terran's other main battle unit options so drastically, that even if your opponent is fielding hardcore mass colossi or baneling or high templar, we must keep making that bio. We have no other choice.
The common thread is that terran players do not feel competitive fielding their own high tech units against other sides' high tech units. I think it is telling that we see a lot of teching in TvT, with tank+viking, banshees, thors, ravens, and sometimes battlecrusiers. Obviously these units are competitive in a mirror matchup, but we see endless bio in TvZ and TvP.
On December 14 2010 00:16 Liquid`Jinro wrote: I dont think warp-in 75 mana templars are what make this matchup hard at all... You need to enter into late-game with some kind of advantage but thats ok as long as this advantage can reasonably be acquired - I think on some maps thats just not the case however.
Then what is the problem with the matchup? If you can literally put your finger on one unit that ruins the game there is no need to overthink things and place the blame on some kind of subtle inner working of the game.
Additionally, if you need to get to lategame with an advantage there is a problem. Whether it is possible or not is irrelevant, since a game that is imbalanced in different spots for different races is imbalanced even if the winrate stats look close overall.
On December 14 2010 00:16 Liquid`Jinro wrote: I dont think warp-in 75 mana templars are what make this matchup hard at all... You need to enter into late-game with some kind of advantage but thats ok as long as this advantage can reasonably be acquired - I think on some maps thats just not the case however.
Then what is the problem with the matchup? If you can literally put your finger on one unit that ruins the game there is no need to overthink things and place the blame on some kind of subtle inner working of the game.
Additionally, if you need to get to lategame with an advantage there is a problem. Whether it is possible or not is irrelevant, since a game that is imbalanced in different spots for different races is imbalanced even if the winrate stats look close overall.
This doesn't make any sense. Did any Zerg or Protoss in BW ever enter the late game vs Terran without a significant advantage? The same logic needs to be applied to TvP in SC2. In SC2, Terran is great at setting up expansions because you can build them somewhere safe and then float over to make a planetary fortress. Also, toss doesn't have marauder drops. This combined with Terran's incredible nexus-sniping ability means you should expect balance when Terran is ahead in bases.
Don't wait until you scout hts to make ghosts. Make ghosts like every game.
Being able to take 1/3 the life off a zealot, half the life off a stalker, the important bit of life off an immortal, etc is never bad. Also you shut down heavy force field play and force guardian shield up early. If mass gateway units is going to be the preferred way to play PvT, then early ghost might have to come at the cost of some other tech (maybe banshee cloak, idk).
On December 14 2010 02:45 ledarsi wrote: The root of the problem with terran is that bio is very strong, and there's nothing as strong to transition into. Mech is just abysmal against anything in the air, and it's not really feasible to mass air units. The Thor is the only factory unit that even has any anti air whatsoever, and it deals only 16 dps against what it is best against. And only 8 dps against armored air, before armor reduction on its four projectiles. The thor's anti air is garbage- literally one stimmed marine is more effective, and it costs 300/200/6. As a result a mech build will, if it doesn't get beaten on the ground, get henpecked to death by just a couple air units.
There's just nothing else to build right now as your main army apart from tons of infantry, which colossi and psi storm just wreck. Infantry are so strong, however, and they overshadow terran's other main battle unit options so drastically, that even if your opponent is fielding hardcore mass colossi or baneling or high templar, we must keep making that bio. We have no other choice.
The common thread is that terran players do not feel competitive fielding their own high tech units against other sides' high tech units. I think it is telling that we see a lot of teching in TvT, with tank+viking, banshees, thors, ravens, and sometimes battlecrusiers. Obviously these units are competitive in a mirror matchup, but we see endless bio in TvZ and TvP.
Uhm it starts out at 14 dmg and its 14x4 not just 14. Thats 56 dmg vs light air and AoE. Thats pretty damn good. Thors ground attack is perfect at mopping gate way units as well.
Heres the problem tho with T late game.
P has infinite anwsers to any mechanical play from the T.
Blink Stalks/Charge Lots/Immortals/Phoenix/Void Rays(PTR 20% vs Massive now)
All of which, with chronoboost can be quickly churned out for a very effective counter
So what does that leave you with?
You have your Bio of course or your starport. Both of which we see heavy usage in the current TvP
The Starport units are support units however, You cant just mass banshee raven viking and expect a TvP revolution. HT w feedback/storm will laugh at this. Battle Cruisers... well no.
So what do we get?? We get Bio with starport support. Theres only 2 viable tech trees in this MU making it very easy for Toss to counter both. At the same time you also must factor in the advantae of late game warp gates. A toss on 3 base can support about 12-15 of these and with chronoboost he will always rebuild his army faster than you.
Let me summarize my post
Terran Tech Tree---------> only 2 viable options of 3 making protoss have a predictable easy counterable game(Once it gets late game)
Terran Late Game production-------------> Can not match P's warp gate/chronoboost production.
On December 13 2010 22:40 Arcanefrost wrote: Im a toss player and I think pvt is pretty balanced. The problem is terrans all in too much and don't practice macro games enough imo. Players like Jinro prove that terran is perfectly fine late game in any matchup, but it takes practice. Jinro has been practicing macro for months, trying to be a reactionary player with good lategame and I think it's safe to say he succeeded. On the other hand players like rain will obviously not beat the likes of tester in a macro game. I think boxers 1rax fe build is pretty good. I would recommend watching some korean pvt from the gomtv allstar tournament, observe their build orders and find one that suits your style: http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=event&id=382
terrans often all in hard 1 base because late game PvT is so difficult.. thats why you rarely see them unless its between 2 very similarly skilled players
On December 14 2010 01:42 Smackzilla wrote: I'm probably wrong, but it seems like early ghosts would solve a whole lot of the problems I've seen in TvP replays, lately. Personally, I find a ghost or two handy vs. any composition. I still need vikings vs. collosus but even then is does massive DPS to shields and helps keep me from getting raped by FFs. I also believe in walling in vs toss - call me crazy.
I agree, and its something Ive been experimenting with the last couple of days.
- Mobile detection? Check. - Good vs aggression? Well it depletes sentries mana..... - Good vs passive play? Well, it depletes sentries mana.....
Jinro,
How do your fellow OGS team mates feel about TvP? If you can communicate with them that is. Just curious on how they view the TvP late game.
PS. ( you made me lose so much god damn sleep becuase you kept winning at the gsl!)
I've always been curious if Vikings will make their way into the TvP metagame. They actually fare well against gateway units, but I rarely see them used in ground mode (it's as if just because they can fly, everyone only wants touse them in flight mode). Could a mech army consisting of hellions, vikings, tanks, and some marauder support work?
On December 14 2010 03:15 Offhand wrote: Tanks are viable in TvP, no matter how much you whine the core fact unit isn't useless and forces a response from the protoss player in some way.
On December 14 2010 03:15 Offhand wrote: Tanks are viable in TvP, no matter how much you whine the core fact unit isn't useless and forces a response from the protoss player in some way.
On December 14 2010 02:45 ledarsi wrote: The root of the problem with terran is that bio is very strong, and there's nothing as strong to transition into. Mech is just abysmal against anything in the air, and it's not really feasible to mass air units. The Thor is the only factory unit that even has any anti air whatsoever, and it deals only 16 dps against what it is best against. And only 8 dps against armored air, before armor reduction on its four projectiles. The thor's anti air is garbage- literally one stimmed marine is more effective, and it costs 300/200/6. As a result a mech build will, if it doesn't get beaten on the ground, get henpecked to death by just a couple air units.
There's just nothing else to build right now as your main army apart from tons of infantry, which colossi and psi storm just wreck. Infantry are so strong, however, and they overshadow terran's other main battle unit options so drastically, that even if your opponent is fielding hardcore mass colossi or baneling or high templar, we must keep making that bio. We have no other choice.
The common thread is that terran players do not feel competitive fielding their own high tech units against other sides' high tech units. I think it is telling that we see a lot of teching in TvT, with tank+viking, banshees, thors, ravens, and sometimes battlecrusiers. Obviously these units are competitive in a mirror matchup, but we see endless bio in TvZ and TvP.
Uhm it starts out at 14 dmg and its 14x4 not just 14. Thats 56 dmg vs light air and AoE. Thats pretty damn good. Thors ground attack is perfect at mopping gate way units as well.
Heres the problem tho with T late game.
P has infinite anwsers to any mechanical play from the T.
Blink Stalks/Charge Lots/Immortals/Phoenix/Void Rays(PTR 20% vs Massive now)
All of which, with chronoboost can be quickly churned out for a very effective counter
So what does that leave you with?
You have your Bio of course or your starport. Both of which we see heavy usage in the current TvP
The Starport units are support units however, You cant just mass banshee raven viking and expect a TvP revolution. HT w feedback/storm will laugh at this. Battle Cruisers... well no.
So what do we get?? We get Bio with starport support. Theres only 2 viable tech trees in this MU making it very easy for Toss to counter both. At the same time you also must factor in the advantae of late game warp gates. A toss on 3 base can support about 12-15 of these and with chronoboost he will always rebuild his army faster than you.
Let me summarize my post
Terran Tech Tree---------> only 2 viable options of 3 making protoss have a predictable easy counterable game(Once it gets late game)
Terran Late Game production-------------> Can not match P's warp gate/chronoboost production.
Thor does 6 x 4 damage, 12 x 4 against light. The AoE is kinda useless since muta's are the only massed air unit in the game and they can easily be "microed" to avoid the small splash area. If Thors did 12 x 4 against all air they would at least be a bit a decent against armored air, remove the splash, it wasn't supposed to have that anyways.
I'd love to see medivacs run around carrying Thors and sniping Carriers ^^
On December 14 2010 03:15 Offhand wrote: Tanks are viable in TvP, no matter how much you whine the core fact unit isn't useless and forces a response from the protoss player in some way.
See: Mana v Naama DH finals.
Nony would disagree with you
Replays would be nice.
read his post history hes anti fan of tank build and criticized MaNas DH play, he says that chargelots +colo eat this alive
On December 14 2010 01:42 Smackzilla wrote: I'm probably wrong, but it seems like early ghosts would solve a whole lot of the problems I've seen in TvP replays, lately. Personally, I find a ghost or two handy vs. any composition. I still need vikings vs. collosus but even then is does massive DPS to shields and helps keep me from getting raped by FFs. I also believe in walling in vs toss - call me crazy.
I agree, and its something Ive been experimenting with the last couple of days.
- Mobile detection? Check. - Good vs aggression? Well it depletes sentries mana..... - Good vs passive play? Well, it depletes sentries mana.....
From my experience ghost openers die to an earlier colossi stalker push(with like 2colossi).
On December 14 2010 01:42 Smackzilla wrote: I'm probably wrong, but it seems like early ghosts would solve a whole lot of the problems I've seen in TvP replays, lately. Personally, I find a ghost or two handy vs. any composition. I still need vikings vs. collosus but even then is does massive DPS to shields and helps keep me from getting raped by FFs. I also believe in walling in vs toss - call me crazy.
I agree, and its something Ive been experimenting with the last couple of days.
- Mobile detection? Check. - Good vs aggression? Well it depletes sentries mana..... - Good vs passive play? Well, it depletes sentries mana.....
From my experience ghost openers die to an earlier colossi stalker push(with like 2colossi).
Yep, colosus beats ghost opening pretty handily, because there will be a low no of marauders and colosus eats through marines. Also you have to land some nice EMPs on the sentries, and hit a lot of them because just 2 sentries worth of force fields can completely ruin your day.
I feel forced to go bio every game against protoss, and once I get it going it's nearly impossible to transition out even well after it becomes ineffective. Tech all-ins aside, fast barracks and with upgrades is the most stable way to fend off early aggression and maintain map presence to stop protoss from mass expanding early on. But once you get 3 or 4 barracks with requisite upgrades that's it- you're basically locked into that composition because you've sunk all you resources into upgrading and maintaining your bio army. Transitioning to mech midgame means adding factories and upgrading from scratch. It leaves a massive window where you die if protoss just a-moves you with his colossi, and even if you do manage to field a relevant mech army he'll already have expanded twice and fielded the counter.
If I stick with bio though the game is out of my hands as soon as toss starts chronoboosting colossi. I've lost so many games where protoss just sits in his nat massing colossi templar. Doing nothing is actually the most sensible thing for him-if he stays in his base I can't drop. If I attack into his nat with maxed out bio army he laughs and runs me over after I trade 100 population for 10 zealots. In TvP nowadays I'm praying Toss attacks me early to allow for some counterplay, otherwise being up in bases doesn't mean crap if nothing I produce can even put a dent in his army. Getting battlecruisers has its own problem. By the time I can afford it my army's a maxed bio ball and if I suicide it I'll die to the counter well before the cruisers come out. The terran system of addons makes it really difficult to tech switch, and to make matters worse there's no flexible, dependable unit composition you can get for your investment in higher tier structures. I blame the thor personally. It's a stupid unit that's not cost effective against anything in the game and makes factory armies unviable since it can't provide anti-air and is too expensive to use as a meatshield for tanks.
Sounds like you need better ghost micro. Ghost > Templar
If a ghost is out of energy he can still attack, if a HT is out of energy he just sits there waiting to die or try to morph into an Archon before he gets killed. Poor HT's.
Not to mention the Mobius Reactor upgrade for Ghosts. Basically same as Amulet for Templar. Soon as the ghost pops out of the Rax he can EMP. And I'd be willing to bet if you EMP a group of zealots you can do more damage (removal of shields) than 1 storm does.
I always open ghosts vs protoss. Great vs. DT's as well, just emp them if you don't have a raven or turrets out yet. Either way, ghosts vs protoss is NEVER a bad idea.
what makes it P favoured is the fact that the longer the game goes, the more micro-demanding it gets for the terran, and more easy it gets for the protoss.
because at some point in lategame protoss just has enough templars to drop storms fucking everywhere, and a-moving colossi with stalkers deal insane amounts of damage without any need to dedicate apm to them.
whereas terran has to micro like a mad cunt, mantaining the concave, dodging storms, picking of templars, leapfrogging with tanks AND macroing (without the luxury of the warpgate mechanic).
so yeah i think its protoss favoured. terran is forced to get ahead early if he wants to be able to compete in lategame.
On December 14 2010 03:33 Savant wrote: I feel forced to go bio every game against protoss, and once I get it going it's nearly impossible to transition out even well after it becomes ineffective. Tech all-ins aside, fast barracks and with upgrades is the most stable way to fend off early aggression and maintain map presence to stop protoss from mass expanding early on. But once you get 3 or 4 barracks with requisite upgrades that's it- you're basically locked into that composition because you've sunk all you resources into upgrading and maintaining your bio army. Transitioning to mech midgame means adding factories and upgrading from scratch. It leaves a massive window where you die if protoss just a-moves you with his colossi, and even if you do manage to field a relevant mech army he'll already have expanded twice and fielded the counter.
Forgive me if this is stupid I don't play much terran - but considering the add ons from rax are transferable to factory - shouldn't a mech transition be sort of painless?
3 rax is a 450 minerals total. Why would a mech transition be really hard here - except having to build 2 factories?
On December 14 2010 03:36 soulcrusher wrote: Sounds like you need better ghost micro. Ghost > Templar
If a ghost is out of energy he can still attack, if a HT is out of energy he just sits there waiting to die or try to morph into an Archon before he gets killed. Poor HT's.
Unfortunately ghosts need to EMP multiple Templar before they gets storms off, 2 good storms significantly weaken a bio ball. Also even if the toss army is beaten, newly warped Templar can decimate bio balls. Added to this, Templar have an ability similar to EMP to counter ghosts.
I am pretty sure the thread is about Templar AFTER the amulet upgrade finishes so Templar have energy upon warp in. This is the current state of balance, if it is indeed favoured towards a certain race Blizz will fix it.
On December 13 2010 23:24 4Servy wrote: once protoss has the amulet its gg, its ridic how imba that upgrade is my dog can win with protoss after they got the amulet.
1120 Damage vs 14 Stalkers with 1 emp
1150 Damage vs 23 zealots with 1 emp.
700 to 7 Colossus
1100 to 11 Immortals
Not to mention units clump under colossus, similar to air units. And Emp is a much faster tech than storm.
A perfectly placed storm on 80 clumped marines on hold postion will kill 23 marines, inflicting 1035 damage.
960 to 12 Marauders standing still
22 Ghosts for 1750 damage.... (that made me laugh)
So maybe once you get emp, you should hand your keyboard to your dog, let him do his thing. And yes I know emp will never kill my units, but its an advantage nonetheless and it has more front end damage than storm (which can't be stacked). Good yes, Imba... Probably not.
On December 14 2010 03:39 ganjazerg wrote: what makes it P favoured is the fact that the longer the game goes, the more micro-demanding it gets for the terran, and more easy it gets for the protoss.
You are wrong. Protoss just gets more cost effective against terran.
On December 14 2010 03:15 Offhand wrote: Tanks are viable in TvP, no matter how much you whine the core fact unit isn't useless and forces a response from the protoss player in some way.
See: Mana v Naama DH finals.
Nony would disagree with you
Replays would be nice.
read his post history hes anti fan of tank build and criticized MaNas DH play, he says that chargelots +colo eat this alive
OK so you don't really have any ground to stand on because a build like that obviously gets crushed by vikings but please continue asserting that pro players said something and it is gospel as a result.
On December 14 2010 03:33 Savant wrote: I feel forced to go bio every game against protoss, and once I get it going it's nearly impossible to transition out even well after it becomes ineffective. Tech all-ins aside, fast barracks and with upgrades is the most stable way to fend off early aggression and maintain map presence to stop protoss from mass expanding early on. But once you get 3 or 4 barracks with requisite upgrades that's it- you're basically locked into that composition because you've sunk all you resources into upgrading and maintaining your bio army. Transitioning to mech midgame means adding factories and upgrading from scratch. It leaves a massive window where you die if protoss just a-moves you with his colossi, and even if you do manage to field a relevant mech army he'll already have expanded twice and fielded the counter.
Forgive me if this is stupid I don't play much terran - but considering the add ons from rax are transferable to factory - shouldn't a mech transition be sort of painless?
3 rax is a 450 minerals total. Why would a mech transition be really hard here - except having to build 2 factories?
Once you lift the barracks are a total loss, as well as all the cash you shelled out for tech lab and ebay upgrades. plus you're not producing any units for a full minute waiting for the factories, and afterwards you'll be producing 0 upgrade tank/thor in sets of 2 or 3. If you can manage to pull that off and live either you've either already won the game or the protoss is doing something wrong.
On December 14 2010 03:33 Savant wrote: I feel forced to go bio every game against protoss, and once I get it going it's nearly impossible to transition out even well after it becomes ineffective. Tech all-ins aside, fast barracks and with upgrades is the most stable way to fend off early aggression and maintain map presence to stop protoss from mass expanding early on. But once you get 3 or 4 barracks with requisite upgrades that's it- you're basically locked into that composition because you've sunk all you resources into upgrading and maintaining your bio army. Transitioning to mech midgame means adding factories and upgrading from scratch. It leaves a massive window where you die if protoss just a-moves you with his colossi, and even if you do manage to field a relevant mech army he'll already have expanded twice and fielded the counter.
Forgive me if this is stupid I don't play much terran - but considering the add ons from rax are transferable to factory - shouldn't a mech transition be sort of painless?
3 rax is a 450 minerals total. Why would a mech transition be really hard here - except having to build 2 factories?
Once you lift the barracks are a total loss, as well as all the cash you shelled out for tech lab and ebay upgrades. plus you're not producing any units for a full minute waiting for the factories, and afterwards you'll be producing 0 upgrade tank/thor in sets of 2 or 3. If you can manage to pull that off and live either you've either already won the game or the protoss is doing something wrong.
so if you can build 2 factories and switch the techlab/reactor from 2 rax to 2 factories you've already won or the protoss sucks? ..... that sounds sketchy to me.
On December 13 2010 23:24 4Servy wrote: once protoss has the amulet its gg, its ridic how imba that upgrade is my dog can win with protoss after they got the amulet.
1120 Damage vs 14 Stalkers with 1 emp
1150 Damage vs 23 zealots with 1 emp.
700 to 7 Colossus
1100 to 11 Immortals
Not to mention units clump under colossus, similar to air units. And Emp is a much faster tech than storm.
A perfectly placed storm on 80 clumped marines on hold postion will kill 23 marines, inflicting 1035 damage.
960 to 12 Marauders standing still
22 Ghosts for 1750 damage.... (that made me laugh)
So maybe once you get emp, you should hand your keyboard to your dog, let him do his thing. And yes I know emp will never kill my units, but its an advantage nonetheless and it has more front end damage than storm (which can't be stacked). Good yes, Imba... Probably not.
I don't know about the guys dog but what you are missing is what happens right after the battle. Even if the Terran gets great emp's off and wins the fight, the protoss then just warps in a round of templar and storms the leftovers to death. As a T late game you don't just have to win the fight, you have to win the fight with enough health left over to not die to the next 5 storms that are coming. You won't have emp energy left and your medivacs will be drained as well. The ease with which a protoss can reinforce means that a Terran cannot win a close battle. A close win late game is a loss.
For people saying the Terran needs to get out of bio, get out of bio and go into what exactly? Tanks aren't the worst unit in the world in the matchup, but you can't have an army of just tanks. Furthermore the toss already has the counter, charge-lots. You cant easily transition from bio to mech because mech does not work in small numbers. Without warpgates you cannot just bust out with tanks, thors, hellions and ghosts. It takes a long time for a Terran army to build. As a protoss all you have to do is trade armies with a Terran in the late game and you are winning (assuming you have equal eco's). If I played Toss I would simply play it like a zerg, just work on holding and making counter attacks if the T moves out. All you need to do is survive into the late game, then you win.
A matchup should not depend on being ahead going into the late game, and it shouldn't depend on a ton of drop harass. If the Protoss is playing well you won't be able to do any damage with your drops because he will see them and warp in appropriate units.
On December 14 2010 03:33 Savant wrote: I feel forced to go bio every game against protoss, and once I get it going it's nearly impossible to transition out even well after it becomes ineffective. Tech all-ins aside, fast barracks and with upgrades is the most stable way to fend off early aggression and maintain map presence to stop protoss from mass expanding early on. But once you get 3 or 4 barracks with requisite upgrades that's it- you're basically locked into that composition because you've sunk all you resources into upgrading and maintaining your bio army. Transitioning to mech midgame means adding factories and upgrading from scratch. It leaves a massive window where you die if protoss just a-moves you with his colossi, and even if you do manage to field a relevant mech army he'll already have expanded twice and fielded the counter.
Forgive me if this is stupid I don't play much terran - but considering the add ons from rax are transferable to factory - shouldn't a mech transition be sort of painless?
3 rax is a 450 minerals total. Why would a mech transition be really hard here - except having to build 2 factories?
Once you lift the barracks are a total loss, as well as all the cash you shelled out for tech lab and ebay upgrades. plus you're not producing any units for a full minute waiting for the factories, and afterwards you'll be producing 0 upgrade tank/thor in sets of 2 or 3. If you can manage to pull that off and live either you've either already won the game or the protoss is doing something wrong.
Yeah if you make nothing but mech units, you will lose. I kinda thought most people have figured that one out by now.
On December 14 2010 03:15 Offhand wrote: Tanks are viable in TvP, no matter how much you whine the core fact unit isn't useless and forces a response from the protoss player in some way.
See: Mana v Naama DH finals.
Nony would disagree with you
Replays would be nice.
read his post history hes anti fan of tank build and criticized MaNas DH play, he says that chargelots +colo eat this alive
OK so you don't really have any ground to stand on because a build like that obviously gets crushed by vikings but please continue asserting that pro players said something and it is gospel as a result.
i take his words over yours any day, besides its not like hes theorycrafting he even casted cup where capoach almost beat sjow with that combination of units, main battle was a massacre of sjows army but he managed to pull ahead thx to unnoticed drop in capoach's natural which killed all of his probes.
On December 14 2010 03:33 Savant wrote: I feel forced to go bio every game against protoss, and once I get it going it's nearly impossible to transition out even well after it becomes ineffective. Tech all-ins aside, fast barracks and with upgrades is the most stable way to fend off early aggression and maintain map presence to stop protoss from mass expanding early on. But once you get 3 or 4 barracks with requisite upgrades that's it- you're basically locked into that composition because you've sunk all you resources into upgrading and maintaining your bio army. Transitioning to mech midgame means adding factories and upgrading from scratch. It leaves a massive window where you die if protoss just a-moves you with his colossi, and even if you do manage to field a relevant mech army he'll already have expanded twice and fielded the counter.
Forgive me if this is stupid I don't play much terran - but considering the add ons from rax are transferable to factory - shouldn't a mech transition be sort of painless?
3 rax is a 450 minerals total. Why would a mech transition be really hard here - except having to build 2 factories?
Once you lift the barracks are a total loss, as well as all the cash you shelled out for tech lab and ebay upgrades. plus you're not producing any units for a full minute waiting for the factories, and afterwards you'll be producing 0 upgrade tank/thor in sets of 2 or 3. If you can manage to pull that off and live either you've either already won the game or the protoss is doing something wrong.
Produce the factories then lift? Anyways, mocking aside, I think his point may have been that tech switching for T might be slighty easier than for a P player. And of course if we could make more than just workers from our Cc's and Nexi, then we could tech switch like a mad mad madfrog! A protoss player who is forced to switch from Robo to Stargate (or the other way around) might actually be forced to stop producing from one. 3 rax isn't any more of a commitment than 3 warp-gates, which is pretty much a necessity to survive.
Edit: Endbringer The game should not rely on whether I place a ff right the first 7 mins of a game either, but it does. I like your post, but understand that everyone loses half their games, and they all get frustrated too. Its not as simple as a P player mimicking a turtle till he has HT then army swapping armies. Good unit spread and a good mix of Bio/Mech/ and Starport units will always counter HT just as much has HT counters Bio. I think another issue could be the fact that the # of Ghosts you get in a game can severely set you back, whereas there quickly becomes a point once HT come out where you can easily spend all your gas on HT's.
On December 14 2010 03:15 Offhand wrote: Tanks are viable in TvP, no matter how much you whine the core fact unit isn't useless and forces a response from the protoss player in some way.
See: Mana v Naama DH finals.
Nony would disagree with you
Replays would be nice.
read his post history hes anti fan of tank build and criticized MaNas DH play, he says that chargelots +colo eat this alive
OK so you don't really have any ground to stand on because a build like that obviously gets crushed by vikings but please continue asserting that pro players said something and it is gospel as a result.
i take his words over yours any day, besides its not like hes theorycrafting he even casted cup where capoach almost beat sjow with that combination of units, main battle was a massacre of sjows army but he managed to pull ahead thx to unnoticed drop in capoach's natural which killed all of his probes.
So do you have a replay? Because I can't wait to watch it and point out the obvious as to why that's not the reason Sjow lost the fight.
Actually, you know what? Fuck it, you don't have any reasons. And you refuse to listen to anything that might run contrary to your pre-established beliefs. This is why the SC2 strat subforum is retarded.
On December 14 2010 03:33 Savant wrote: I feel forced to go bio every game against protoss, and once I get it going it's nearly impossible to transition out even well after it becomes ineffective. Tech all-ins aside, fast barracks and with upgrades is the most stable way to fend off early aggression and maintain map presence to stop protoss from mass expanding early on. But once you get 3 or 4 barracks with requisite upgrades that's it- you're basically locked into that composition because you've sunk all you resources into upgrading and maintaining your bio army. Transitioning to mech midgame means adding factories and upgrading from scratch. It leaves a massive window where you die if protoss just a-moves you with his colossi, and even if you do manage to field a relevant mech army he'll already have expanded twice and fielded the counter.
Forgive me if this is stupid I don't play much terran - but considering the add ons from rax are transferable to factory - shouldn't a mech transition be sort of painless?
3 rax is a 450 minerals total. Why would a mech transition be really hard here - except having to build 2 factories?
Once you lift the barracks are a total loss, as well as all the cash you shelled out for tech lab and ebay upgrades. plus you're not producing any units for a full minute waiting for the factories, and afterwards you'll be producing 0 upgrade tank/thor in sets of 2 or 3. If you can manage to pull that off and live either you've either already won the game or the protoss is doing something wrong.
Produce the factories then lift? Anyways, mocking aside, I think his point may have been that tech switching for T might be slighty easier than for a P player. And of course if we could make more than just workers from our Cc's and Nexi, then we could tech switch like a mad mad madfrog! A protoss player who is forced to switch from Robo to Stargate (or the other way around) might actually be forced to stop producing from one. 3 rax isn't any more of a commitment than 3 warp-gates, which is pretty much a necessity to survive.
I don't think tech switching is easier for a Terran. It seems pretty equal for both races. If we want mech units we have to make another building. If you want templar from your warpgates you gotta build another building. If you want collosi you have to build a support bay, if we want thors we have to build an armory. You could argue, I guess, that we would get the armory anyway for vehicle upgrades and you wont get a support bay if you don't go collosi. The counter to that arguement is most of your units come from warpgates, so if you make 10 warpgates, those are useful if you are going stalker-zealot, dts, etc. T cannot build 10 rax and then make 10 tanks at a time. I think that part of the game is pretty balanced between Toss and Terran.
Eh its a little different Endbringer. You have to get a Factory to get a starport. I don't have to get a robo to get a stargate. So lets say I open robo and a T player goes banshee. Great I have obs and I can shoot up. Then if he follows that up with more starports, more banshees, ravens, and vikings; And then I don't get a stargate. P will lose that every time, they can snipe your detection and no # stalkers will beat cloaked banshees coming from 2-3 starports constantly. Thats a very specific late game example, but its just to show that there are times when a Protoss is forced to switch tech, and a building *will* become absolutely useless for at least a while cause you simply don't have the resources to do that and produce enough units to survive.
I'm not saying terran tech switching is game breakingly imba or some shit. But because you can swap add ons - it should be easier for terran to tech switch than protoss...seems pretty simple to me. Terran tech switching to mech can make use of the add ons they put on rax earlier then use them on factories or starports later.
zerg is most flexible, then terran, then protoss in terms of costs related to switching tech. I would think thats an advantage in TvP -- in other words if P makes a tech switch it should be more cost effective for T to respond.
It's sort of balanced by who can force a tech switch.
Early game, terran MM ball forces colo or templar - there is really no other response. Once toss gets color or templar then terran must be responsive with either valks or ghost.
terran has a huge advantage early game because it can both tech switch more cost effectively -and- force responses. Late game, toss gains initiative and terran must be reactive.
edit: the other huge constrictor in TvP is the banshee. This option absolutely demands robo early. Toss really has no option in TvP except for gateways into robo because they need the detection possibility for transition from rax into starport swapping lab.
thats why 90% of tvp follows the same pattern - defensive protoss vs bio ball into robo for detection then naturally colo cuz you've half teched there. terran responds with valk, toss transitions into templar, terran transitions into ghost
game ends up being these two dominating abilities (emp vs storm) - the player who abuses their op ability more wins all else equal
edit 2: I really think TvP is a sort of broken match - not that its necessarily imbalanced, but it tends to cause one sided games one way or the other - and the tech decisions are really forced for both sides. Although PTR 1.2 might change it a bit with phoenix play opening up a bit giving toss some earlier initiative.
Fair enough, seems like semantics though. I think there are problems with the matchup at high levels of play, but tech switching isn't one of them.
In midgame I can see how you would have idle buildings if you had to throw out a bunch of pheonix or voidrays. This is true for T as well of course, you cannot mass marauders and tanks with medivacs on 4 gas. In fact if you are going heavy marauder you often cannot even support 1 reactored starport making constant medivacs. None of this applies to this post of course, because I believe it was dealing with late game situations, and there I think we can safely assume its 3 or more bases. At that point I think either race can switch to whatever unit combination he/she wants. Its not going to be the tech switch thats the issue, its going to be what units and how fast a player can mass those units.
To sum up that paragraph. I acquiesce to your superior protoss knowledge in specifics on tech switching being harder than I made it out to be for protoss. I still believe its even between terran and protoss. I will have to come up with better examples next time ;D
Edit2!! - It does suck that a Toss has to have perfect FF micro early game which I feel is more difficult than stutter-stepping marauders. Blizzard needs to come up with some way to buff late game terran and somehow also nerf them early game. I would love to be able to macro against a toss and feel confident in my ability to win after the first templar. I understand your pain.
Edit - I believe the Test realm build will make the matchup even worse for Terran. The protoss will be less restrained with their opening build while the terran stays the same. This will make early game a bit easier for protoss, and thats probably a good thing. The next time a terran gets a good timing is with a polt timing push, this patch will make that a lot easier for the protoss to hold off. Pheonix were the counter to that, and with them being cheaper and faster, along with safer and cheaper detection, the protoss should have an easier time with this. In addition the thor scv broken push is fixed. In the late game the protoss will still be better because this part of the matchup has not changed.
Yes you can share addons, but again, the slow build time for units means that you cannot mass them quickly, and the protoss can just kill you in the 5 minutes it takes to mass a completely different tech tree.
2000 Terran here I think TvP late game is really hard for the terran side.Even in GSL everybody does this allins because terran players are like : "oh shit i need to win early game with my MM,svc ball because late game is broken" and some minutes after that we see a 1base all in or 2 base timing push and protoss players knows that too so they only need to survive the early game and they will be fine or they can choose to do their 1base all in or 2base timing push and then you will see some exciting games.Even if you go back in the days NEXGenius vs Loner Blizzcon final that Xel'Naga game where both players stood in the middle of the map and change armies Loner goes with his bioball Genius has 10-12zealots and 5HT and storms it this shows how dumb the TvP is Loner has a godlike macro and still after every fight he only comes even food when he attacked with more forces. There are a lot of builds flying around like that Scandinavian build that every Finland,Sweden terran will do with the tanks but i think it completely fails vs zealot+hts or qxc,select drop play (is more a strategy then a build) is a double edge knife because of the medivac nerf.So basically what i am trying to say is that if you want to win a TvP you need good mechanics micro,macro and multitask. Try to get 1 rax expand every game and do drops multiply attacks at once macro your heart out and pray to lady lucky to smile upon you.
On December 14 2010 04:19 Wrongspeedy wrote: Eh its a little different Endbringer. You have to get a Factory to get a starport. I don't have to get a robo to get a stargate. So lets say I open robo and a T player goes banshee. Great I have obs and I can shoot up. Then if he follows that up with more starports, more banshees, ravens, and vikings; And then I don't get a stargate. P will lose that every time, they can snipe your detection and no # stalkers will beat cloaked banshees coming from 2-3 starports constantly. Thats a very specific late game example, but its just to show that there are times when a Protoss is forced to switch tech, and a building *will* become absolutely useless for at least a while cause you simply don't have the resources to do that and produce enough units to survive.
Terran has an advantage because Factory is a requirement for the Starport whilst the Stargate can be built without Robo? Lol ...
I think the best way, how to play this matchup is biomech aka MMM + Tanks/Raven..
The good old MMM + Vikings is so predictible and so boring.. If I dont get Vikings in time I lose. If I do get Vikings in time but in wrong numbers I lose. If I do get Vikings in time in right numbers, theres this endless kiting between Stalkers and Protoss eventually makes it to HTs and I lose..
With addition of Tanks I use my factory for something more useful then floating it over P base to see that he is of course making collosi..
Raven is invaluable later when you can shut down observers and so you wont get caught out of posistion. Not to mention that well placed PDD can win you whole fight.
But the basic idea is, that I can play with this composition from start to end and I dont feel this "Oh shit he has DTs Im dead"..
But it seems like there are way better players here contributing, so take my words easy.
I don't think tech switching is the problem, I'm not even sure that HTs are the problem although I definitely think its ridiculous that you can win a battle with like 20 (albeit injured) units left, move in to take out the expansion, and like 3 zealots and 2 HTs just warped in kill your entire army.
The problem IMO is forcefield. Protoss have gotten better and better at using this spell, and now with examples like MC v Jinro for all the protoss to copy its really getting out of hand, and if you havn't seen evidence of this your not playing at a high level.
Forcefield allows a protoss to defend and tech easily against aggression. Some protoss on this thread say, well we have to be able to forcefield well so its fair...but really, how hard is it to put a forcefield in the middle of your ramp? This puts them at an advantage if you try to punish them for teching because you are now behind on vikings when they get one immortal they are able to easily take their expansion as you are forced to reduce pressure to expand since you can't get up the ramp.
So just play more reactively you say? Well, Forcefield also allows the protoss to really punish any similar attempt at a quick expansion, EVEN if you build bunkers because thanks again to MC, now all the protoss know how to really make bunkers ineffective and defending a position with less or equal units basically impossible. I basically never feel safe to 1rax FE anymore whereas protoss get away with a 1gateway FE all the time no problem.
In the field forcefield just makes it so easy for a gateway army to crush a bioball even without things they used to need like zealot charge. Granted you have to be competent at trapping half or more of the bio army against your zealots, but it seems most protoss can do this these days and when this happens it is OVER. So now the protoss say, oh well you just need ghosts to emp those sentries! But good protoss will split up their sentries and a ghost is a serious investment early in the game usually good for only one emp, this really screws you over if the protoss goes for fast collosus instead of sentry heavy as your not going to have enough vikings to deal with it. Also he advantage of an early emp used to be taking out a huge chunk of the protoss hp but now we have to use it on the sentries instead just so we can kite zealots, protoss will simply lose a few zealots and disengage (remember this is with no sentry splitting and a good emp).
Anyway this matchup is seriously broken and my worst by far at 2400+, I hate that the only strategy I can employ is a 1base all in with mass air/ground and its obvious from the number of TvP help threads popping up from 23-400+ diamond players that there is something wrong. Its telling that most of the PvT help threads are mostly from low diamond and lower leagues where early bio pressure is still a problem because those protoss are not proficient with forcefield. The funny thing is, there are always plenty of answers to these protoss problems from more experienced protoss players, but the only answer to the T problems come from platinum league players in their infinite wisdom or P players, most other T players just say, well you have to outplay them or just do the timing attack.
Protoss typically respond that T do manage to win alot of the time, but if you took away the 1base thor/poltesque timing attacks, I guarantee the win ratio becomes ridiculous P favored. This is not balance.
Before you respond with L2P. You might notice that pre roach buff T used to all also say that Z just needed to L2P which I think was at to some degree partially correct, the meta game did evolve, but obviously the roach buff also helped deal with some of the major issues at the time such as mass reapers and early hellion harass which I think drastically effected the matchup more then you might imagine.
On December 14 2010 04:19 Wrongspeedy wrote: Eh its a little different Endbringer. You have to get a Factory to get a starport. I don't have to get a robo to get a stargate. So lets say I open robo and a T player goes banshee. Great I have obs and I can shoot up. Then if he follows that up with more starports, more banshees, ravens, and vikings; And then I don't get a stargate. P will lose that every time, they can snipe your detection and no # stalkers will beat cloaked banshees coming from 2-3 starports constantly. Thats a very specific late game example, but its just to show that there are times when a Protoss is forced to switch tech, and a building *will* become absolutely useless for at least a while cause you simply don't have the resources to do that and produce enough units to survive.
Are you serious with this or are you ironic? Your post reads like:
- Terran has to get a factory for starports. - Protoss can build robo/stargate without further requirements. -->insert weird argumentation here--< Conclusion: Terran tech tree is superiour and stronger lategame.
I mean, sure, Protoss has to tech switch if they went robo first and want to have a stargate. But they dont have to. As Terran you HAVE to get the factory, no matter if you need it or not. Every Protoss player who thinks that the factory->starport thingy is better could build a stargate everytime they build a robo. (Or a robo everytime they get a stargate, as factories are basically useless in tvp while both stargate and robo are actually useful).
On December 14 2010 04:19 Wrongspeedy wrote: Eh its a little different Endbringer. You have to get a Factory to get a starport. I don't have to get a robo to get a stargate. So lets say I open robo and a T player goes banshee. Great I have obs and I can shoot up. Then if he follows that up with more starports, more banshees, ravens, and vikings; And then I don't get a stargate. P will lose that every time, they can snipe your detection and no # stalkers will beat cloaked banshees coming from 2-3 starports constantly. Thats a very specific late game example, but its just to show that there are times when a Protoss is forced to switch tech, and a building *will* become absolutely useless for at least a while cause you simply don't have the resources to do that and produce enough units to survive.
Terran has an advantage because Factory is a requirement for the Starport whilst the Stargate can be built without Robo? Lol ...
Yup thats what I said. Have you ever played Protoss? Maybe I was just pointing out that Protoss doesn't have a tech tree while Terran clearly does. Maybe I was pointing out that if I get a stargate and not a robo, in many situations that puts me at a severe disadvantage (similar to templar tech). Maybe I was pointing out that if you have a starport out and you are forced to tech switch to mech, you already have a factory. I never said one was better than the other, just pointed out they are a lot different than some of you think.
On December 14 2010 04:19 Wrongspeedy wrote: Eh its a little different Endbringer. You have to get a Factory to get a starport. I don't have to get a robo to get a stargate. So lets say I open robo and a T player goes banshee. Great I have obs and I can shoot up. Then if he follows that up with more starports, more banshees, ravens, and vikings; And then I don't get a stargate. P will lose that every time, they can snipe your detection and no # stalkers will beat cloaked banshees coming from 2-3 starports constantly. Thats a very specific late game example, but its just to show that there are times when a Protoss is forced to switch tech, and a building *will* become absolutely useless for at least a while cause you simply don't have the resources to do that and produce enough units to survive.
Terran has an advantage because Factory is a requirement for the Starport whilst the Stargate can be built without Robo? Lol ...
Yup thats what I said. Have you ever played Protoss? Maybe I was just pointing out that Protoss doesn't have a tech tree while Terran clearly does. Maybe I was pointing out that if I get a stargate and not a robo, in many situations that puts me at a severe disadvantage (similar to templar tech). Maybe I was pointing out that if you have a starport out and you are forced to tech switch to mech, you already have a factory. I never said one was better than the other, just pointed out they are a lot different than some of you think.
Yes, I play Protoss from time to time, I'm pretty sure they have a tech tree.
Terran never needs to tech switch to Mech because it's bad against Protoss. In fact, most Terrans would gladly skip that Factory if they could.
Next time just pretend Robo is a requirement for Stargate so you'll never be at a disadvantage. Or just don't post arguments that don't lead anywhere.
On December 14 2010 04:19 Wrongspeedy wrote: Eh its a little different Endbringer. You have to get a Factory to get a starport. I don't have to get a robo to get a stargate. So lets say I open robo and a T player goes banshee. Great I have obs and I can shoot up. Then if he follows that up with more starports, more banshees, ravens, and vikings; And then I don't get a stargate. P will lose that every time, they can snipe your detection and no # stalkers will beat cloaked banshees coming from 2-3 starports constantly. Thats a very specific late game example, but its just to show that there are times when a Protoss is forced to switch tech, and a building *will* become absolutely useless for at least a while cause you simply don't have the resources to do that and produce enough units to survive.
Are you serious with this or are you ironic? Your post reads like:
- Terran has to get a factory for starports. - Protoss can build robo/stargate without further requirements. -->insert weird argumentation here--< Conclusion: Terran tech tree is superiour and stronger lategame.
I mean, sure, Protoss has to tech switch if they went robo first and want to have a stargate. But they dont have to. As Terran you HAVE to get the factory, no matter if you need it or not. Every Protoss player who thinks that the factory->starport thingy is better could build a stargate everytime they build a robo. (Or a robo everytime they get a stargate, as factories are basically useless in tvp while both stargate and robo are actually useful).
factories are useless? Or you are useless with factories? I dunno, what to say. I don't think this matchup is horribly imbalanced and I probably feel like zvp and maybe the mirror's need more work than anything. Nothing I have to write will change anyone T's mind who thinks P is op, but maybe you should try playing protoss; Build 1 gateway, then 1 robo, then 1 stargate off, 1 base and live. I will try it ,cause honestly I don't? But I'm not gonna sit here and say your race is op and there is nothing I can do about it.
edit: argument that leads nowhere = factories are useless vs P.
That's just like saying a five base Zerg is imba. Thing is, as a Terran, you should try to take out the Protoss in the mid game. We Protoss can also argue that stim is overpowered in the early game. Sure, you can moan about Terran not being able to endure a macro game, but you've got to play smartly.
And if you really have that much trouble against HT, get some ghosts and EMP. Not hard.
TvP is not balanced. Terran is favored in the early game (mainly due to Marauders) and Protoss favored in the late game (mainly due to HT with amulet).
On December 14 2010 04:45 statikg wrote: I don't think tech switching is the problem, I'm not even sure that HTs are the problem although I definitely think its ridiculous that you can win a battle with like 20 (albeit injured) units left, move in to take out the expansion, and like 3 zealots and 2 HTs just warped in kill your entire army.
The problem IMO is forcefield. Protoss have gotten better and better at using this spell, and now with examples like MC v Jinro for all the protoss to copy its really getting out of hand, and if you havn't seen evidence of this your not playing at a high level.
Forcefield allows a protoss to defend and tech easily against aggression. Some protoss on this thread say, well we have to be able to forcefield well so its fair...but really, how hard is it to put a forcefield in the middle of your ramp? This puts them at an advantage if you try to punish them for teching because you are now behind on vikings when they get one immortal they are able to easily take their expansion as you are forced to reduce pressure to expand since you can't get up the ramp.
So just play more reactively you say? Well, Forcefield also allows the protoss to really punish any similar attempt at a quick expansion, EVEN if you build bunkers because thanks again to MC, now all the protoss know how to really make bunkers ineffective and defending a position with less or equal units basically impossible. I basically never feel safe to 1rax FE anymore whereas protoss get away with a 1gateway FE all the time no problem.
In the field forcefield just makes it so easy for a gateway army to crush a bioball even without things they used to need like zealot charge. Granted you have to be competent at trapping half or more of the bio army against your zealots, but it seems most protoss can do this these days and when this happens it is OVER. So now the protoss say, oh well you just need ghosts to emp those sentries! But good protoss will split up their sentries and a ghost is a serious investment early in the game usually good for only one emp, this really screws you over if the protoss goes for fast collosus instead of sentry heavy as your not going to have enough vikings to deal with it. Also he advantage of an early emp used to be taking out a huge chunk of the protoss hp but now we have to use it on the sentries instead just so we can kite zealots, protoss will simply lose a few zealots and disengage (remember this is with no sentry splitting and a good emp).
Anyway this matchup is seriously broken and my worst by far at 2400+, I hate that the only strategy I can employ is a 1base all in with mass air/ground and its obvious from the number of TvP help threads popping up from 23-400+ diamond players that there is something wrong. Its telling that most of the PvT help threads are mostly from low diamond and lower leagues where early bio pressure is still a problem because those protoss are not proficient with forcefield. The funny thing is, there are always plenty of answers to these protoss problems from more experienced protoss players, but the only answer to the T problems come from platinum league players in their infinite wisdom or P players, most other T players just say, well you have to outplay them or just do the timing attack.
Protoss typically respond that T do manage to win alot of the time, but if you took away the 1base thor/poltesque timing attacks, I guarantee the win ratio becomes ridiculous P favored. This is not balance.
Before you respond with L2P. You might notice that pre roach buff T used to all also say that Z just needed to L2P which I think was at to some degree partially correct, the meta game did evolve, but obviously the roach buff also helped deal with some of the major issues at the time such as mass reapers and early hellion harass which I think drastically effected the matchup more then you might imagine.
Thats a really good post with good points. I think you're probably exaggerating it a bit, but there is probably a lot of truth there.
Questions:
In the field forcefield just makes it so easy for a gateway army to crush a bioball even without things they used to need like zealot charge. Granted you have to be competent at trapping half or more of the bio army against your zealots
Honestly, I've never seen this occur at anywhere near cost equality without colo or templar. Do you have links to this - because I think you're exaggerating. Maybe I'm too weak a player but bioball is so incredibly effective at dealing with gateway.
So now the protoss say, oh well you just need ghosts to emp those sentries! But good protoss will split up their sentries and a ghost is a serious investment early in the game usually good for only one emp, this really screws you over if the protoss goes for fast collosus instead of sentry heavy as your not going to have enough vikings to deal with it. Also he advantage of an early emp used to be taking out a huge chunk of the protoss hp but now we have to use it on the sentries instead just so we can kite zealots, protoss will simply lose a few zealots and disengage (remember this is with no sentry splitting and a good emp).
Do you think its possible that as toss have gotten better with FF - terran needs to get better with EMP? You say that FF usage has just recently hit a sort of tipping point - do you think that terrans have really mastered the use of ghosts both early and late - or is that still in the works?
I took a look at the first replay and feel like a lot of the play comes down to the Protoss power units like Templar and Collossi. Terran is gearing up to deal with those all game. I made a video reviewing the replay and I think I come to some good insight on the general decision making Terran goes through.
TvP past the mid game is rather difficult for me. The match up is highly volatile because no one really knows how to play it that well. TvZ changes but at a fairly slow pace and is probably the funnest for me to play. TvT is mostly about who has the better macro mechanics and decision making with your units. TvP on the other hand is perhaps the most dynamic match up right now because the army compositions have not found a state of equilibrium.
I don't feel like there is a good lategame stable transition in TvP. for Terran. Terran either opens up banshee, Thor, or Bio and then transition into Mech/Big Air/MMMGV but when what? Each of those compositions has their own weaknesses that Protoss can exploit late game but Terran can't cost efficiently respond to from their current composition (Armored Air Units, butt-ton of gateway units, storm respectively). I mean counters are counter but you shouldn't be able to counter everything in a unit composition.
Its kinda frustrating but someone will eventually figure out how PvT should be played, I suppose.
The reason HTs do so well against terrans in the ladder is because terran ladder players either never make ghosts or just plain don't know how to use them effectively. For a unit that outranges HTs own abilities and has a near-instant missile speed, it's really hard to see how the use of HT/sentries is the bane of terran play.
On December 13 2010 23:24 4Servy wrote: once protoss has the amulet its gg, its ridic how imba that upgrade is my dog can win with protoss after they got the amulet.
1120 Damage vs 14 Stalkers with 1 emp
1150 Damage vs 23 zealots with 1 emp.
700 to 7 Colossus
1100 to 11 Immortals
Not to mention units clump under colossus, similar to air units. And Emp is a much faster tech than storm.
A perfectly placed storm on 80 clumped marines on hold postion will kill 23 marines, inflicting 1035 damage.
960 to 12 Marauders standing still
22 Ghosts for 1750 damage.... (that made me laugh)
So maybe once you get emp, you should hand your keyboard to your dog, let him do his thing. And yes I know emp will never kill my units, but its an advantage nonetheless and it has more front end damage than storm (which can't be stacked). Good yes, Imba... Probably not.
I am sure clumping units together in a unit tester is fun, but it doesnt help balance this portion of the game. There are many other factors to consider, such as:
1) We need to stim, and one storm over a stimmed marine is either dead or under 10 health. Emp kills nothing, it just takes shields away, and your base unit has a lot more HP than it does shields. To put this more simply, storms KILLS stuff while emp hurts stuff.
2) In order not to die, we need to *RUN*, and when *running* we are not doing damage, and you ARE doing damage. As soon as we stop running, another storm makes us get our nike's back on again.
3) You can blanket the entire area with storms forcing T to just die or run away and have half health remaining (unless of course you lead your army with all your templars clumped together so that we can hit them all nice and neat).
4) There is very little chance of you hitting the maximum amount of units with one emp, and once emp hits, casting another one is useless, unlike storm. Storm can be re-cast, even on top of each other, and become more effective.
5) The combination of FF and storm really does make bio useless in any head to head encounter. These two in combination make positioning a total loss for bio.
6) Positioning in battle in TvP is very very important because of FF and colossus range, and Storm can completely shape the formation of the battle position, since you can not stand under the storm. So, even if you get good position, you are forced OUT of your good position because storms will kill you.
7) The unit that casts storm also has a zapping spell to take out the one unit that helps us survive or recover from a storm fest, I speak of course of the medivac. P gets free medivacs with its rediculous shield recovery rate.
8) To go along with #7, if your toss army gets emped in the open field, you can run away. If you are a bad player or just unlucky, and we do happen to zap all your temps, just run and get your shields back. By the time you run half way across Xelnaga caverns, all of your z's are back to full sheilds without having an army of 100/100 units flying over them.
Just a few points about the real game vs unit tester clumping shots.
On December 14 2010 04:45 statikg wrote: I don't think tech switching is the problem, I'm not even sure that HTs are the problem although I definitely think its ridiculous that you can win a battle with like 20 (albeit injured) units left, move in to take out the expansion, and like 3 zealots and 2 HTs just warped in kill your entire army.
The problem IMO is forcefield. Protoss have gotten better and better at using this spell, and now with examples like MC v Jinro for all the protoss to copy its really getting out of hand, and if you havn't seen evidence of this your not playing at a high level.
Forcefield allows a protoss to defend and tech easily against aggression. Some protoss on this thread say, well we have to be able to forcefield well so its fair...but really, how hard is it to put a forcefield in the middle of your ramp? This puts them at an advantage if you try to punish them for teching because you are now behind on vikings when they get one immortal they are able to easily take their expansion as you are forced to reduce pressure to expand since you can't get up the ramp.
So just play more reactively you say? Well, Forcefield also allows the protoss to really punish any similar attempt at a quick expansion, EVEN if you build bunkers because thanks again to MC, now all the protoss know how to really make bunkers ineffective and defending a position with less or equal units basically impossible. I basically never feel safe to 1rax FE anymore whereas protoss get away with a 1gateway FE all the time no problem.
In the field forcefield just makes it so easy for a gateway army to crush a bioball even without things they used to need like zealot charge. Granted you have to be competent at trapping half or more of the bio army against your zealots, but it seems most protoss can do this these days and when this happens it is OVER. So now the protoss say, oh well you just need ghosts to emp those sentries! But good protoss will split up their sentries and a ghost is a serious investment early in the game usually good for only one emp, this really screws you over if the protoss goes for fast collosus instead of sentry heavy as your not going to have enough vikings to deal with it. Also he advantage of an early emp used to be taking out a huge chunk of the protoss hp but now we have to use it on the sentries instead just so we can kite zealots, protoss will simply lose a few zealots and disengage (remember this is with no sentry splitting and a good emp).
Anyway this matchup is seriously broken and my worst by far at 2400+, I hate that the only strategy I can employ is a 1base all in with mass air/ground and its obvious from the number of TvP help threads popping up from 23-400+ diamond players that there is something wrong. Its telling that most of the PvT help threads are mostly from low diamond and lower leagues where early bio pressure is still a problem because those protoss are not proficient with forcefield. The funny thing is, there are always plenty of answers to these protoss problems from more experienced protoss players, but the only answer to the T problems come from platinum league players in their infinite wisdom or P players, most other T players just say, well you have to outplay them or just do the timing attack.
Protoss typically respond that T do manage to win alot of the time, but if you took away the 1base thor/poltesque timing attacks, I guarantee the win ratio becomes ridiculous P favored. This is not balance.
Before you respond with L2P. You might notice that pre roach buff T used to all also say that Z just needed to L2P which I think was at to some degree partially correct, the meta game did evolve, but obviously the roach buff also helped deal with some of the major issues at the time such as mass reapers and early hellion harass which I think drastically effected the matchup more then you might imagine.
Thats a really good post with good points. I think you're probably exaggerating it a bit, but there is probably a lot of truth there.
In the field forcefield just makes it so easy for a gateway army to crush a bioball even without things they used to need like zealot charge. Granted you have to be competent at trapping half or more of the bio army against your zealots
Honestly, I've never seen this occur at anywhere near cost equality without colo or templar. Do you have links to this - because I think you're exaggerating. Maybe I'm too weak a player but bioball is so incredibly effective at dealing with gateway.
So now the protoss say, oh well you just need ghosts to emp those sentries! But good protoss will split up their sentries and a ghost is a serious investment early in the game usually good for only one emp, this really screws you over if the protoss goes for fast collosus instead of sentry heavy as your not going to have enough vikings to deal with it. Also he advantage of an early emp used to be taking out a huge chunk of the protoss hp but now we have to use it on the sentries instead just so we can kite zealots, protoss will simply lose a few zealots and disengage (remember this is with no sentry splitting and a good emp).
Do you think its possible that as toss have gotten better with FF - terran needs to get better with EMP? You say that FF usage has just recently hit a sort of tipping point - do you think that terrans have really mastered the use of ghosts both early and late - or is that still in the works?
Sorry to answer someone else's questions, but just wanted to throw in my 2 cents.
I have personally been crushed by Gateway armies that use FF well. I was 3 Rax-ing and they were 3 Gating, so it's not that I got out-massed, but for example, in Lost Temple, FF just makes it impossible for Terran to successfully fight anywhere but in the center. If I fight at the choke just past my natural, they can cut my army with ~4 FFs, and then just shoot things down with Stalkers. If I engage AT my natural, they can stop reinforcements with 1 FF on the ramp, and a wall of 2-3 starting from the cliff edge close to my ramp will force my army to run around to a new concave. If I fight anywhere but exactly the middle, they can FF along the walls that shield the Xel'Naga Towers to restrict army movement, and if I fight on the Gold expansion area I am beyond screwed.
As to the EMP- I don't think it's that reasonable a counter for 3 reasons:
1. Ghosts are really expensive. Having them to counter Sentries is just not economically viable, especially since you have to keep up with your Marauder count to fight Stalkers, since for the price of one Ghost Academy and one Ghost, you can get 3 extra Sentries, and if those Sentries are not currently locking lips my one Ghost cannot stop all 3.
2. Ghosts need to get their EMPs off before the fight begins, Protoss does not. EMP on a spent Sentry or HT is pointless, so my Ghosts must get into position faster. Cloaking helps, but that's another 150/150, and one forward scouting Observer and one Observer with the main army will spot the Ghosts very quickly (and since Ravens are not common at all, I'd have to blow an EMP or Scan on the Observer).
3. Feedback outranges EMP. For a Ghost to EMP he MUST have 100 energy (oh, right, to whoever said that Ghosts can EMP out the Rax, I think you're wrong), which means that any time he is spotted a HT can just one-shot him and still have energy leftover for Storm. Since Ghosts generally try to get their EMPs before a fight starts (and are pretty easy to spot due to having energy bars), they're also very vulnerable to the units they're supposed to counter.
Like a lot of people said, i'll just echo it - the entire goal of TvP is to kill them before they get the khadayarin amulet for templars.
If they get that, you'll lose a large percentage of those games, and the times you're still in the game and they have it still, suddenly the goal is "snipe the templar archives with drops" which is usually not viable at all lmao. But you have to try.
And yeh...you need ghosts vs the templar, but you need to pray to whatever deity you worship for miracle emps, and that they don't just lol @ you and switch back to collosus+templars+gates.
On December 14 2010 05:21 Willes wrote: waiting for the day terranplayers start adding blueflame hellions to the MMM army in mid/lategame, oh and maybe some ravens with pdd spam too...
What I want to do is go Marauder Hellion + some sort of AA (vikings/BC) but I haven't figured out how yet.
On December 14 2010 05:21 Willes wrote: waiting for the day terranplayers start adding blueflame hellions to the MMM army in mid/lategame, oh and maybe some ravens with pdd spam too...
Ravens are HT bait, with their FB spell that most people don't even remember exists. PDD also do not affect Storms, Colossi, Zealots or Sentries. Seeker and Auto-Turret also does near nothing against Protoss with 10-range FB, and a Raven costs the same gas as a Colossus.
Blueflame Hellions are good, but require micro, which may be hard when you are already running your entire army away from Storms, repositioning due to FFs, trying to EMP the Protoss, getting the Vikings into position to snipe Colossi, etc etc. I don't think anyone can claim that Hellions are a non-micro intensive unit that can just A-Move at things and expect to win (even Zerglings beat them if they A-Move).
well, maybe the maps are to small, but rushing 1 controlgrp of blueflamehellions behind the P-army for sniping templars seems to be a good trade for me, like this HT sniping with mutas in BW, if you want to play bio as T , you need to snipe hts
On December 14 2010 05:26 Offhand wrote: Why is it that every argument about protoss units being too good always comes with the assumption that we have infinite gas?
This discussion is concerning late-game Protoss, and focuses on how Terran cannot let Protoss take his 3rd. If Protoss has a 3rd, that's 6 geysers, which means, yeah, you're gonna be rolling in Gas.
And it's not as if you need 28 Templars or something to decimate a bioball. 4-5 good Storms will do that, and that's 3 fully charged Templars, or 5 just warped. That's... 600 gas in total, which a single Geyser can get in you about 2 minutes.
On December 14 2010 04:45 statikg wrote: I don't think tech switching is the problem, I'm not even sure that HTs are the problem although I definitely think its ridiculous that you can win a battle with like 20 (albeit injured) units left, move in to take out the expansion, and like 3 zealots and 2 HTs just warped in kill your entire army.
The problem IMO is forcefield. Protoss have gotten better and better at using this spell, and now with examples like MC v Jinro for all the protoss to copy its really getting out of hand, and if you havn't seen evidence of this your not playing at a high level.
Forcefield allows a protoss to defend and tech easily against aggression. Some protoss on this thread say, well we have to be able to forcefield well so its fair...but really, how hard is it to put a forcefield in the middle of your ramp? This puts them at an advantage if you try to punish them for teching because you are now behind on vikings when they get one immortal they are able to easily take their expansion as you are forced to reduce pressure to expand since you can't get up the ramp.
So just play more reactively you say? Well, Forcefield also allows the protoss to really punish any similar attempt at a quick expansion, EVEN if you build bunkers because thanks again to MC, now all the protoss know how to really make bunkers ineffective and defending a position with less or equal units basically impossible. I basically never feel safe to 1rax FE anymore whereas protoss get away with a 1gateway FE all the time no problem.
In the field forcefield just makes it so easy for a gateway army to crush a bioball even without things they used to need like zealot charge. Granted you have to be competent at trapping half or more of the bio army against your zealots, but it seems most protoss can do this these days and when this happens it is OVER. So now the protoss say, oh well you just need ghosts to emp those sentries! But good protoss will split up their sentries and a ghost is a serious investment early in the game usually good for only one emp, this really screws you over if the protoss goes for fast collosus instead of sentry heavy as your not going to have enough vikings to deal with it. Also he advantage of an early emp used to be taking out a huge chunk of the protoss hp but now we have to use it on the sentries instead just so we can kite zealots, protoss will simply lose a few zealots and disengage (remember this is with no sentry splitting and a good emp).
Anyway this matchup is seriously broken and my worst by far at 2400+, I hate that the only strategy I can employ is a 1base all in with mass air/ground and its obvious from the number of TvP help threads popping up from 23-400+ diamond players that there is something wrong. Its telling that most of the PvT help threads are mostly from low diamond and lower leagues where early bio pressure is still a problem because those protoss are not proficient with forcefield. The funny thing is, there are always plenty of answers to these protoss problems from more experienced protoss players, but the only answer to the T problems come from platinum league players in their infinite wisdom or P players, most other T players just say, well you have to outplay them or just do the timing attack.
Protoss typically respond that T do manage to win alot of the time, but if you took away the 1base thor/poltesque timing attacks, I guarantee the win ratio becomes ridiculous P favored. This is not balance.
Before you respond with L2P. You might notice that pre roach buff T used to all also say that Z just needed to L2P which I think was at to some degree partially correct, the meta game did evolve, but obviously the roach buff also helped deal with some of the major issues at the time such as mass reapers and early hellion harass which I think drastically effected the matchup more then you might imagine.
Thats a really good post with good points. I think you're probably exaggerating it a bit, but there is probably a lot of truth there.
Questions:
In the field forcefield just makes it so easy for a gateway army to crush a bioball even without things they used to need like zealot charge. Granted you have to be competent at trapping half or more of the bio army against your zealots
Honestly, I've never seen this occur at anywhere near cost equality without colo or templar. Do you have links to this - because I think you're exaggerating. Maybe I'm too weak a player but bioball is so incredibly effective at dealing with gateway.
So now the protoss say, oh well you just need ghosts to emp those sentries! But good protoss will split up their sentries and a ghost is a serious investment early in the game usually good for only one emp, this really screws you over if the protoss goes for fast collosus instead of sentry heavy as your not going to have enough vikings to deal with it. Also he advantage of an early emp used to be taking out a huge chunk of the protoss hp but now we have to use it on the sentries instead just so we can kite zealots, protoss will simply lose a few zealots and disengage (remember this is with no sentry splitting and a good emp).
Do you think its possible that as toss have gotten better with FF - terran needs to get better with EMP? You say that FF usage has just recently hit a sort of tipping point - do you think that terrans have really mastered the use of ghosts both early and late - or is that still in the works?
Sorry to answer someone else's questions, but just wanted to throw in my 2 cents.
I have personally been crushed by Gateway armies that use FF well. I was 3 Rax-ing and they were 3 Gating, so it's not that I got out-massed, but for example, in Lost Temple, FF just makes it impossible for Terran to successfully fight anywhere but in the center. If I fight at the choke just past my natural, they can cut my army with ~4 FFs, and then just shoot things down with Stalkers. If I engage AT my natural, they can stop reinforcements with 1 FF on the ramp, and a wall of 2-3 starting from the cliff edge close to my ramp will force my army to run around to a new concave. If I fight anywhere but exactly the middle, they can FF along the walls that shield the Xel'Naga Towers to restrict army movement, and if I fight on the Gold expansion area I am beyond screwed.
As to the EMP- I don't think it's that reasonable a counter for 3 reasons:
1. Ghosts are really expensive. Having them to counter Sentries is just not economically viable, especially since you have to keep up with your Marauder count to fight Stalkers, since for the price of one Ghost Academy and one Ghost, you can get 3 extra Sentries, and if those Sentries are not currently locking lips my one Ghost cannot stop all 3.
2. Ghosts need to get their EMPs off before the fight begins, Protoss does not. EMP on a spent Sentry or HT is pointless, so my Ghosts must get into position faster. Cloaking helps, but that's another 150/150, and one forward scouting Observer and one Observer with the main army will spot the Ghosts very quickly (and since Ravens are not common at all, I'd have to blow an EMP or Scan on the Observer).
3. Feedback outranges EMP. For a Ghost to EMP he MUST have 100 energy (oh, right, to whoever said that Ghosts can EMP out the Rax, I think you're wrong), which means that any time he is spotted a HT can just one-shot him and still have energy leftover for Storm. Since Ghosts generally try to get their EMPs before a fight starts (and are pretty easy to spot due to having energy bars), they're also very vulnerable to the units they're supposed to counter.
I don't really want to just argue random bullshit opinions - I'm honestly curious about this match (not saying your opinion is bs, but most forum msgs are).
As for the 3 gate > 3 rax I don't mean to be offensive, but I would really like to see some replays or videos. I've just really never seen roughly cost equal armies here end up with P ahead using pure gateway (after armies hit like 20+ supply). Getting tech support is so critical for P since bioball scales DPS so effectively vs gateway.
I would THINK that what you're saying about the 3 gate > 3 rax was really more an issue of raw positioning or inequality of cost - which is why I'd like to see vid or replay.
As for Ghosts - EMP is really under utilized by terran players in most of the games I've played / seen. People use ghosts as a counter to templar - they should really be part of core in every terran army.
It's sort of like how many toss players fuck up in forgetting to mix in sentries to their late game armies - terran fucks up in neglecting ghosts in their early/mid game.
On December 14 2010 00:09 TERRANLOL wrote: I'm inclined to believe that we just can't remain using infantry in the end game. But what other good compositions are there? I think I'm going to experiment with tanks and hellions.... perhaps ghosts and marauders as well, to absorb damage and do spells.
The toss version of MMM is essentially a big ball of as many types of toss units that can possibly be made. In this way, you have a counter to, and cannot be hard countered by, anything. We're tallking a ball of z's stalkers, sentries, immortals, colossi, and some type of templar.
I never understood why terran don't take the same route. It's even easier for them because all their tech structures are linked. You will already have a factory and barracks if you have a starport... why not put them to use as well? Toss have to build a whole building for only a couple (or even just one) types of units. Terrans definately could stand to mix up their army composition a bit more. There are too many armies made up of only one or two types of units in modern games. Then it`d be all, like...
Templar? Bam, ghosts bitch!... Colossi? Pow, vikings mofo!... oh no, void rays? Bang, ball o' marines sucka!
P.S. You guys shouldn't be able to complain about not being able to counter units. That's what scanning is for. Toss are flying blind against you, take advantage of that shit!
They were pretty interesting games, but in every game I felt Mana played better/made less mistakes. 1st game: + Show Spoiler +
Mana played really well. Note how kinda hided his army for potential scans (<- thats really smart). However Kaz didn't even scan (look at his vision). Kaz makes 6-8 vikings, expecting colossi. However Mana goes for templars and Kaz has no medivacs or ghost and a clump of useless vikings. Mana attacks before Kaz gold CC transforms into a planetary fortress. Not scouting the ht was Kaz'doom.
Kaz goes for a 3 rax scv allin againsts mana's expansion. Mana smartly backs off. Mana has now a probe and tech advantage. Kaz has a ton of marines wich instantly die to storm gg. Marrauders are far better against storm because they can survive it. Kaz lost because he allined in the early game, and while he did some damage he was far behind on tech.
1 rax expand is pretty risky. When toss suspects it, he can just 4 gate and kill you. I 've seen LiquidHuk do it on his stream. I have done it with succes (2912 diamond toss) and so does Mana.
While it might have seem that Servant was ahead, he made mistakes in the fight. HE OVERSTIMED!!! Every single time. watch it. at the 20 min mark he attacks the gold after a couple of good emps (the only good one I saw btw). He stims 3 times in 15 seconds. after having done a bunch of damage to mana at the gold, his 3* stimmed army moves to the natural and gets obliterated. He should have backed off and healed his army. At another time, he stims twice to take out a nexus, after what his stroops are killed off easily. I cannot stress enough the importance: overstimmed, low health bio dies instantly to storms. In the final confrontation, Servant loses 5 tanks without doing any damage(<- huge). Note how he overstims again . Mana immediately goes for the production facilities, bypassing economical targets. gg.
I am 2912 toss on eu. i never make ht in PvP, PvZ. Never. Sometimes in PvT. They are hard to get, and make u vulnerable during your transition. Emp has longer range, and splash. Terran players at my level move out the storms, whereby my stupid zealots run forward and get hit by my own storms. Plus they don't rely on mmm whole game long, but add thors,tanks and ghost to the mix. Watch the top pros (like in Korea) etc play. u never see ht in PvP (obvious), very rarely in PvZ and sometimes in PvT. But we see far more often colossi or airtech and maybe even dts then ht. There is a reason to it.
On December 14 2010 05:29 Willes wrote: well, maybe the maps are to small, but rushing 1 controlgrp of blueflamehellions behind the P-army for sniping templars seems to be a good trade for me, like this HT sniping with mutas in BW, if you want to play bio as T , you need to snipe hts
That is a fair point, though the biggest gripe people generally have are Storms, which HTs tend to throw down pretty much immediately in a fight. The Protoss players I come up against generally keep their HTs either in the middle of their army or spread out, which makes it very hard to snipe them with Hellions until the fight actually started and his attention is elsewhere. Otherwise his army just auto-fires your Hellions to death. I've had more luck sneaking in individual Ghosts to Snipe his Templars, but still not too much.
A group of Hellions behind him do work well against newly warped in Templars, though.
@Offhand - we get it, you think terrans just need to L2P, state your ranking and show a replay of yourself losing to EMP using HT's please, I'm sure there are many protoss who could give you a few hints on how to improve. There are a million posts on emp vs templar and why its not as effective vs protoss who don't keep all their HT in a giant ball/how protoss can just fall back to their nearest proxy pylon with 4 new HTs all ready to storm. Meanwhile all the other HTs can become archons which are hardly useless as you earlier implied - they are very strong meatshields and do alot of damage in situations in which kiting is not possible.
@30-1 - I don't have a replay right now of that exact situation, but the reason that bioballs beat gateway units is that they can kite the zealots to death and then marauders are very strong against stalkers. The key unit is the zealot, zealots are light, have more hitpoints, (armor kicks in more) and do more damage to marines and equal damage to mauarders as stalkers, however generally they don't get to engage in the early game because of concussive shells. However when a zealot heavy army is able to engage because of a forcefield trap, that army can beat a bio army due to the frailness of marines and marauders being not that strong against zealots, so when the zealots are actually able to engage the gateway army > bio army, this is why if you try to do a big marauder rush at the start of the game a good protoss responds with sentry/zealot, lets you up the ramp and then crushes you. You need more marines against the zealots, but with lots of sentries... lack of kiting and guardian shield makes marines very underpowered especially with the 1base armor of zealots.
Basically it evolves into a micro battle, which I actually find very enjoyable and fairly balanced in itself (when forcefields are used well) that is to say that equal forces will usually do well against each other in the field. Except for the fact that it inevitably leads to the late game or completely undermines my defensive positions.
Furthermore I don't think that EMP usage has as much to evolve as forcefields, frankly the usage has evolved from targetting the biggest group of units to targeting the sentries and I don't think there is much more use to be had out of them, there is no more effective usage then this, only an increase in the number of ghosts which really cuts into your ability to tech/upgrade. Think about it this way, 2 ghosts takes up 1.5minutes worth of gas off 2 geysers. Collosus are usually out between 10-15minutes. And if your going bio heavy you probably don't have 2 geysers until at earliest 5 minutes.
Edit: Hellions cannot be added to this composition without godlike micro which I do not have, I have tried this before, it requires you to stutter step and avoid storms with your bio, while simultaneously microing your hellions around to snipe the HTs. And if your too slow, you lose your army before you snipe the HTs. This just doenst work for me. The only thing you can try to do is sniper with hellions before you engage, but this generally results in you losing alot of hellions and not getting all the HTs and your main army is weakned by the loss of like 800 minerals worth of hellions.
On December 14 2010 05:26 Offhand wrote: Why is it that every argument about protoss units being too good always comes with the assumption that we have infinite gas?
This discussion is concerning late-game Protoss, and focuses on how Terran cannot let Protoss take his 3rd. If Protoss has a 3rd, that's 6 geysers, which means, yeah, you're gonna be rolling in Gas.
And it's not as if you need 28 Templars or something to decimate a bioball. 4-5 good Storms will do that, and that's 3 fully charged Templars, or 5 just warped. That's... 600 gas in total, which a single Geyser can get in you about 2 minutes.
I think you should read up on units costs and such before making these conclusions. HTs are 50/150 for starters.
On December 14 2010 04:45 statikg wrote: I don't think tech switching is the problem, I'm not even sure that HTs are the problem although I definitely think its ridiculous that you can win a battle with like 20 (albeit injured) units left, move in to take out the expansion, and like 3 zealots and 2 HTs just warped in kill your entire army.
The problem IMO is forcefield. Protoss have gotten better and better at using this spell, and now with examples like MC v Jinro for all the protoss to copy its really getting out of hand, and if you havn't seen evidence of this your not playing at a high level.
Forcefield allows a protoss to defend and tech easily against aggression. Some protoss on this thread say, well we have to be able to forcefield well so its fair...but really, how hard is it to put a forcefield in the middle of your ramp? This puts them at an advantage if you try to punish them for teching because you are now behind on vikings when they get one immortal they are able to easily take their expansion as you are forced to reduce pressure to expand since you can't get up the ramp.
So just play more reactively you say? Well, Forcefield also allows the protoss to really punish any similar attempt at a quick expansion, EVEN if you build bunkers because thanks again to MC, now all the protoss know how to really make bunkers ineffective and defending a position with less or equal units basically impossible. I basically never feel safe to 1rax FE anymore whereas protoss get away with a 1gateway FE all the time no problem.
In the field forcefield just makes it so easy for a gateway army to crush a bioball even without things they used to need like zealot charge. Granted you have to be competent at trapping half or more of the bio army against your zealots, but it seems most protoss can do this these days and when this happens it is OVER. So now the protoss say, oh well you just need ghosts to emp those sentries! But good protoss will split up their sentries and a ghost is a serious investment early in the game usually good for only one emp, this really screws you over if the protoss goes for fast collosus instead of sentry heavy as your not going to have enough vikings to deal with it. Also he advantage of an early emp used to be taking out a huge chunk of the protoss hp but now we have to use it on the sentries instead just so we can kite zealots, protoss will simply lose a few zealots and disengage (remember this is with no sentry splitting and a good emp).
Anyway this matchup is seriously broken and my worst by far at 2400+, I hate that the only strategy I can employ is a 1base all in with mass air/ground and its obvious from the number of TvP help threads popping up from 23-400+ diamond players that there is something wrong. Its telling that most of the PvT help threads are mostly from low diamond and lower leagues where early bio pressure is still a problem because those protoss are not proficient with forcefield. The funny thing is, there are always plenty of answers to these protoss problems from more experienced protoss players, but the only answer to the T problems come from platinum league players in their infinite wisdom or P players, most other T players just say, well you have to outplay them or just do the timing attack.
Protoss typically respond that T do manage to win alot of the time, but if you took away the 1base thor/poltesque timing attacks, I guarantee the win ratio becomes ridiculous P favored. This is not balance.
Before you respond with L2P. You might notice that pre roach buff T used to all also say that Z just needed to L2P which I think was at to some degree partially correct, the meta game did evolve, but obviously the roach buff also helped deal with some of the major issues at the time such as mass reapers and early hellion harass which I think drastically effected the matchup more then you might imagine.
Thats a really good post with good points. I think you're probably exaggerating it a bit, but there is probably a lot of truth there.
Questions:
In the field forcefield just makes it so easy for a gateway army to crush a bioball even without things they used to need like zealot charge. Granted you have to be competent at trapping half or more of the bio army against your zealots
Honestly, I've never seen this occur at anywhere near cost equality without colo or templar. Do you have links to this - because I think you're exaggerating. Maybe I'm too weak a player but bioball is so incredibly effective at dealing with gateway.
So now the protoss say, oh well you just need ghosts to emp those sentries! But good protoss will split up their sentries and a ghost is a serious investment early in the game usually good for only one emp, this really screws you over if the protoss goes for fast collosus instead of sentry heavy as your not going to have enough vikings to deal with it. Also he advantage of an early emp used to be taking out a huge chunk of the protoss hp but now we have to use it on the sentries instead just so we can kite zealots, protoss will simply lose a few zealots and disengage (remember this is with no sentry splitting and a good emp).
Do you think its possible that as toss have gotten better with FF - terran needs to get better with EMP? You say that FF usage has just recently hit a sort of tipping point - do you think that terrans have really mastered the use of ghosts both early and late - or is that still in the works?
Sorry to answer someone else's questions, but just wanted to throw in my 2 cents.
I have personally been crushed by Gateway armies that use FF well. I was 3 Rax-ing and they were 3 Gating, so it's not that I got out-massed, but for example, in Lost Temple, FF just makes it impossible for Terran to successfully fight anywhere but in the center. If I fight at the choke just past my natural, they can cut my army with ~4 FFs, and then just shoot things down with Stalkers. If I engage AT my natural, they can stop reinforcements with 1 FF on the ramp, and a wall of 2-3 starting from the cliff edge close to my ramp will force my army to run around to a new concave. If I fight anywhere but exactly the middle, they can FF along the walls that shield the Xel'Naga Towers to restrict army movement, and if I fight on the Gold expansion area I am beyond screwed.
As to the EMP- I don't think it's that reasonable a counter for 3 reasons:
1. Ghosts are really expensive. Having them to counter Sentries is just not economically viable, especially since you have to keep up with your Marauder count to fight Stalkers, since for the price of one Ghost Academy and one Ghost, you can get 3 extra Sentries, and if those Sentries are not currently locking lips my one Ghost cannot stop all 3.
2. Ghosts need to get their EMPs off before the fight begins, Protoss does not. EMP on a spent Sentry or HT is pointless, so my Ghosts must get into position faster. Cloaking helps, but that's another 150/150, and one forward scouting Observer and one Observer with the main army will spot the Ghosts very quickly (and since Ravens are not common at all, I'd have to blow an EMP or Scan on the Observer).
3. Feedback outranges EMP. For a Ghost to EMP he MUST have 100 energy (oh, right, to whoever said that Ghosts can EMP out the Rax, I think you're wrong), which means that any time he is spotted a HT can just one-shot him and still have energy leftover for Storm. Since Ghosts generally try to get their EMPs before a fight starts (and are pretty easy to spot due to having energy bars), they're also very vulnerable to the units they're supposed to counter.
I don't really want to just argue random bullshit opinions - I'm honestly curious about this match (not saying your opinion is bs, but most forum msgs are).
As for the 3 gate > 3 rax I don't mean to be offensive, but I would really like to see some replays or videos. I've just really never seen roughly cost equal armies here end up with P ahead using pure gateway (after armies hit like 20+ supply). Getting tech support is so critical for P since bioball scales DPS so effectively vs gateway.
I would THINK that what you're saying about the 3 gate > 3 rax was really more an issue of raw positioning or inequality of cost - which is why I'd like to see vid or replay.
As for Ghosts - EMP is really under utilized by terran players in most of the games I've played / seen. People use ghosts as a counter to templar - they should really be part of core in every terran army.
It's sort of like how many toss players fuck up in forgetting to mix in sentries to their late game armies - terran fucks up in neglecting ghosts in their early/mid game.
I wasn't stating that 3 gate > 3 rax, but was just stating that to show I was not just butt-hurt from being out-macro'd. Protoss FF reaction speed determines a lot of early-game fights, and though I don't have a replay at the moment (need to figure out how to upload them), having 7-8 FFs make Protoss very hard to fight, and I may be so bold as to say it can nullify Stim in quite a few cases before the Medivacs roll out.
When both armies meet as a ball, the Terran can either choose to Stim to run up to the Protoss to force the engage and a faster concave, or Stim after the initial volley to maximize the amount of time the Stimm'd units are spent fighting. In both cases, I've had half my army cut out from under me by a wall of FFs at times, and if nothing else it wasted a Stim on half my army.
I don't begrudge Protoss or consider this overpowered- those FFs took skill and fast thinking to place, and can be nullified if I engaged in better positions (ie. in wide open area just before the expo of Xel'Naga Caverns instead of the two small-ish routes that lead into it). I was just stating situations when FF can swing an engagement in Protoss favor without needing Colo/HT DPS to back it up.
And yes, if the Protoss did not have enough Sentries in those situations my Stim'd MM ball would have rolled right over his army. There's nothing really imbalanced about FF, and I find good FF placement quite impressive, even when it's my army that's being bisected.
As to EMP, I think Terrans will learn to use it more, and then force the Protoss to learn to use Feedback better, and then Terrans will still have a frowny face. As I said before, an Observer slightly ahead of your army and a Feedback will snipe any Ghost trying to EMP before a fight. For Protoss who do not Feedback, I do have a lot of success with Ghosts, as I can EMP before the Templars get into Storm range.
As to people complaining about warp-in Storms, a good solution I've found is to have 1-2 Ghosts in a separate control group, cloak them, and move them around the main fight. Most Protoss players will warp their HTs in a blob as they're trying to do it as fast as possible, and a mid-warp in HT can be EMP'd without worrying about Feedback.
Why are people still comparing ghosts with HT? In the late game ghosts build slowly and aren't available to warp in where ever u need them... Example: Huge bio drop in main? Warp in 2-3 HT and kill them... Cant warp in ghosts.. too bad.. die.
People dont understand that Terran HAS to push early and exploit timing windows. Its not that Terran players dont know how to marco.. they just can't compete. Do you expect Terran to sit and macro vs toss so that he can mass up 10 colossus' and amulet HTs? I've battled 200/200 armies TvP with almost every unit combination except BCs and i pretty much get erased by a combination of HT and Colossus. All those Protoss' out there should try the unit tester map and see what happens.
Edit: Important to understand that you can keep storming and kill tons of units with 2-3 storms. You dont kill units with EMP.
On December 14 2010 05:26 Offhand wrote: Why is it that every argument about protoss units being too good always comes with the assumption that we have infinite gas?
This discussion is concerning late-game Protoss, and focuses on how Terran cannot let Protoss take his 3rd. If Protoss has a 3rd, that's 6 geysers, which means, yeah, you're gonna be rolling in Gas.
And it's not as if you need 28 Templars or something to decimate a bioball. 4-5 good Storms will do that, and that's 3 fully charged Templars, or 5 just warped. That's... 600 gas in total, which a single Geyser can get in you about 2 minutes.
I think you should read up on units costs and such before making these conclusions. HTs are 50/150 for starters.
I'm aware that they are 50/150. I discount the mineral cost, because you were speaking about infinite Gas, and because there's probably something wrong if people with HT tech cannot shell out 200 minerals, but can shell out 600 gas. And 600 gas = 4 templars = 4 storms on the go, which is enough to drain pretty much all Medivac energy at the very, very least.
On December 13 2010 23:24 4Servy wrote: once protoss has the amulet its gg, its ridic how imba that upgrade is my dog can win with protoss after they got the amulet.
1120 Damage vs 14 Stalkers with 1 emp
1150 Damage vs 23 zealots with 1 emp.
700 to 7 Colossus
1100 to 11 Immortals
Not to mention units clump under colossus, similar to air units. And Emp is a much faster tech than storm.
A perfectly placed storm on 80 clumped marines on hold postion will kill 23 marines, inflicting 1035 damage.
960 to 12 Marauders standing still
22 Ghosts for 1750 damage.... (that made me laugh)
So maybe once you get emp, you should hand your keyboard to your dog, let him do his thing. And yes I know emp will never kill my units, but its an advantage nonetheless and it has more front end damage than storm (which can't be stacked). Good yes, Imba... Probably not.
I am sure clumping units together in a unit tester is fun, but it doesnt help balance this portion of the game. There are many other factors to consider, such as:
1) We need to stim (do drugs much?), and one storm over a stimmed marine is either dead or under 10 health. Emp kills nothing, it just takes shields away (see points 7 & 8), and your base unit has a lot more HP than it does shields. To put this more simply, storms KILLS stuff while emp hurts stuff.
2) In order not to die, we need to *RUN*, and when *running* we are not doing damage, and you ARE doing damage. As soon as we stop running, another storm makes us get our nike's back on again. (do we do damage while running?)
3) You can blanket the entire area with storms forcing T to just die or run away and have half health remaining (unless of course you lead your army with all your templars clumped together so that we can hit them all nice and neat). (there are situations where everyone needs their units spread.)
4) There is very little chance of you hitting the maximum amount of units with one emp, and once emp hits, casting another one is useless, unlike storm. Storm can be re-cast, even on top of each other, and become more effective. (storm doesn't stack btw, and how is it any different than hitting units with storm?)
5) The combination of FF and storm really does make bio useless in any head to head encounter. These two in combination make positioning a total loss for bio. (yeah I guess you should build more than just Rax to prepare for Colos and HT, like T does "every game")
6) Positioning in battle in TvP is very very important because of FF and colossus range, and Storm can completely shape the formation of the battle position, since you can not stand under the storm. So, even if you get good position, you are forced OUT of your good position because storms will kill you. (positioning is always important in battle, anyone can take advantage of units with range, you know tanks right? Maybe vikings?)
7) The unit that casts storm also has a zapping spell to take out the one unit that helps us survive or recover from a storm fest, I speak of course of the medivac. P gets free medivacs with its rediculous shield recovery rate. (You got me there, feedback is the bee's knees, and the reason the HT doesn't have an attack. Can't you heal every unit to 100%?)
8) To go along with #7, if your toss army gets emped in the open field, you can run away. If you are a bad player or just unlucky, and we do happen to zap all your temps, just run and get your shields back. By the time you run half way across Xelnaga caverns, all of your z's are back to full sheilds without having an army of 100/100 units flying over them. (you can run too, you said something about doing that earlier. Just stay away from the deadend called your base that everyone has to deal with.)
Just a few points about the real game vs unit tester clumping shots.
Yeah totally, to bad my whole point wasn't about the balance of the match-up of the "real" game. I only wanted to show the people who think storm is op, that emp is no different. Anyways I commented in the spoiler to.
On December 14 2010 05:26 Offhand wrote: Why is it that every argument about protoss units being too good always comes with the assumption that we have infinite gas?
This discussion is concerning late-game Protoss, and focuses on how Terran cannot let Protoss take his 3rd. If Protoss has a 3rd, that's 6 geysers, which means, yeah, you're gonna be rolling in Gas.
And it's not as if you need 28 Templars or something to decimate a bioball. 4-5 good Storms will do that, and that's 3 fully charged Templars, or 5 just warped. That's... 600 gas in total, which a single Geyser can get in you about 2 minutes.
I think you should read up on units costs and such before making these conclusions. HTs are 50/150 for starters.
I'm aware that they are 50/150. I discount the mineral cost, because you were speaking about infinite Gas, and because there's probably something wrong if people with HT tech cannot shell out 200 minerals, but can shell out 600 gas. And 600 gas = 4 templars = 4 storms on the go, which is enough to drain pretty much all Medivac energy at the very, very least.
No one is arguing that HT are extremely cost effective. In the late game Terran will probably use up much more resources.
On December 14 2010 05:39 statikg wrote: @Offhand - we get it, you think terrans just need to L2P, state your ranking and show a replay of yourself losing to EMP using HT's please, I'm sure there are many protoss who could give you a few hints on how to improve. There are a million posts on emp vs templar and why its not as effective vs protoss who don't keep all their HT in a giant ball/how protoss can just fall back to their nearest proxy pylon with 4 new HTs all ready to storm. Meanwhile all the other HTs can become archons which are hardly useless as you earlier implied - they are very strong meatshields and do alot of damage in situations in which kiting is not possible.
@30-1 - I don't have a replay right now of that exact situation, but the reason that bioballs beat gateway units is that they can kite the zealots to death and then marauders are very strong against stalkers. The key unit is the zealot, zealots are light, have more hitpoints, (armor kicks in more) and do more damage to marines and equal damage to mauarders as stalkers, however generally they don't get to engage in the early game because of concussive shells. However when a zealot heavy army is able to engage because of a forcefield trap, that army can beat a bio army due to the frailness of marines and marauders being not that strong against zealots, so when the zealots are actually able to engage the gateway army > bio army, this is why if you try to do a big marauder rush at the start of the game a good protoss responds with sentry/zealot, lets you up the ramp and then crushes you. You need more marines against the zealots, but with lots of sentries... lack of kiting and guardian shield makes marines very underpowered especially with the 1base armor of zealots.
Basically it evolves into a micro battle, which I actually find very enjoyable and fairly balanced in itself (when forcefields are used well) that is to say that equal forces will usually do well against each other in the field. Except for the fact that it inevitably leads to the late game or completely undermines my defensive positions.
Edit: Hellions cannot be added to this composition without godlike micro which I do not have, I have tried this before, it requires you to stutter step and avoid storms with your bio, while simultaneously microing your hellions around to snipe the HTs. And if your too slow, you lose your army before you snipe the HTs. This just doenst work for me. The only thing you can try to do is sniper with hellions before you engage, but this generally results in you losing alot of hellions and not getting all the HTs and your main army is weakned by the loss of like 800 minerals worth of hellions.
I think its sort of telling that you're talking about how FF prevents kiting. In general kiting is a sign of being in a more aggressive stance (not always but often). You don't generally get the opportunity to do a lot of kiting when you're being put on the defensive.
As for needing more marines vs zealots - I would agree, and I think that a lot of terrans are too heavy on marauders in TvP because they want to attack very hard and marauders are so good for kiting. Marine dps is really insane. Guardian shield helps zealots - but honestly - as the fight scales to around 20+ supply unmacro'd marines beat gateway units handily (guardian shield included).
I think that arguing that all things being equal toss has a distinctive advantage at tier 1.5 is sort of ridiculous.
TvP is a really sort of crappy match in that its -so- sensitive to blunders. Early game positioning blunders for P is gg, late game positioning blunders by T is gg. Those blunders can be very small but will will result in game deciding landslide. TvP is extremely unforgiving, and thats why it sucks as a match. I don't think that its really imba. Just incredibly unforgiving of very small errors for either side.
On December 13 2010 23:24 4Servy wrote: once protoss has the amulet its gg, its ridic how imba that upgrade is my dog can win with protoss after they got the amulet.
1120 Damage vs 14 Stalkers with 1 emp
1150 Damage vs 23 zealots with 1 emp.
700 to 7 Colossus
1100 to 11 Immortals
Not to mention units clump under colossus, similar to air units. And Emp is a much faster tech than storm.
A perfectly placed storm on 80 clumped marines on hold postion will kill 23 marines, inflicting 1035 damage.
960 to 12 Marauders standing still
22 Ghosts for 1750 damage.... (that made me laugh)
So maybe once you get emp, you should hand your keyboard to your dog, let him do his thing. And yes I know emp will never kill my units, but its an advantage nonetheless and it has more front end damage than storm (which can't be stacked). Good yes, Imba... Probably not.
I am sure clumping units together in a unit tester is fun, but it doesnt help balance this portion of the game. There are many other factors to consider, such as:
1) We need to stim (do drugs much?), and one storm over a stimmed marine is either dead or under 10 health. Emp kills nothing, it just takes shields away (see points 7 & 8), and your base unit has a lot more HP than it does shields. To put this more simply, storms KILLS stuff while emp hurts stuff.
2) In order not to die, we need to *RUN*, and when *running* we are not doing damage, and you ARE doing damage. As soon as we stop running, another storm makes us get our nike's back on again. (do we do damage while running?)
3) You can blanket the entire area with storms forcing T to just die or run away and have half health remaining (unless of course you lead your army with all your templars clumped together so that we can hit them all nice and neat). (there are situations where everyone needs their units spread.)
4) There is very little chance of you hitting the maximum amount of units with one emp, and once emp hits, casting another one is useless, unlike storm. Storm can be re-cast, even on top of each other, and become more effective. (storm doesn't stack btw, and how is it any different than hitting units with storm?)
5) The combination of FF and storm really does make bio useless in any head to head encounter. These two in combination make positioning a total loss for bio. (yeah I guess you should build more than just Rax to prepare for Colos and HT, like T does "every game")
6) Positioning in battle in TvP is very very important because of FF and colossus range, and Storm can completely shape the formation of the battle position, since you can not stand under the storm. So, even if you get good position, you are forced OUT of your good position because storms will kill you. (positioning is always important in battle, anyone can take advantage of units with range, you know tanks right? Maybe vikings?)
7) The unit that casts storm also has a zapping spell to take out the one unit that helps us survive or recover from a storm fest, I speak of course of the medivac. P gets free medivacs with its rediculous shield recovery rate. (You got me there, feedback is the bee's knees, and the reason the HT doesn't have an attack. Can't you heal every unit to 100%?)
8) To go along with #7, if your toss army gets emped in the open field, you can run away. If you are a bad player or just unlucky, and we do happen to zap all your temps, just run and get your shields back. By the time you run half way across Xelnaga caverns, all of your z's are back to full sheilds without having an army of 100/100 units flying over them. (you can run too, you said something about doing that earlier. Just stay away from the deadend called your base that everyone has to deal with.)
Just a few points about the real game vs unit tester clumping shots.
Yeah totally, to bad my whole point wasn't about the balance of the match-up of the "real" game. I only wanted to show the people who think storm is op, that emp is no different. Anyways I commented in the spoiler to.
I'll say it again. 2-3 storms kill tons of units. 1 Emp does damage.. but thats it. You cant Emp again to kill the units. Take a bio ball and kill it with 3 HT. Take a Gateway ball and try killing it with "more expensive" 2-3 ghosts.
Edit: And if you think emp will catch every HT.. remember Protoss will be warping in HTs continuously with Zealots/Archons to tank.
On December 14 2010 05:49 shynee wrote: Why are people still comparing ghosts with HT? In the late game ghosts build slowly and aren't available to warp in where ever u need them... Example: Huge bio drop in main? Warp in 2-3 HT and kill them... Cant warp in ghosts.. too bad.. die.
People dont understand that Terran HAS to push early and exploit timing windows. Its not that Terran players dont know how to marco.. they just can't compete. Do you expect Terran to sit and macro vs toss so that he can mass up 10 colossus' and amulet HTs? I've battled 200/200 armies TvP with almost every unit combination except BCs and i pretty much get erased by a combination of HT and Colossus. All those Protoss' out there should try the unit tester map and see what happens.
While I hate HTs in mass army fights, I have to say that 3 HTs cannot stop a bio drop, if you bring Marauders. You'd need 1.5 storm durations to kill a Marauder that is not being healed. Of course, since late-game Protoss have 15 Warp Gates they can just warp in 10 Zealots instead and save the gas.
HTs are obscene support and harassment units, but they can't fight without a wall of Zealot/Stalker/Sentries.
HT drop/warp-in mineral line harass though, ugh. The Strelok vs Hasu game AskJoshy casted a few days ago shows Hasu decimating Strelok's economy with I think 2 Storms from HTs that sneak behind the enemy. For Terran to have the same effect, they'd need to drop an unnoticed Nuke or a Drop Ship's worth of blue-flame Hellions.
On December 14 2010 05:49 shynee wrote: Why are people still comparing ghosts with HT? In the late game ghosts build slowly and aren't available to warp in where ever u need them... Example: Huge bio drop in main? Warp in 2-3 HT and kill them... Cant warp in ghosts.. too bad.. die.
People dont understand that Terran HAS to push early and exploit timing windows. Its not that Terran players dont know how to marco.. they just can't compete. Do you expect Terran to sit and macro vs toss so that he can mass up 10 colossus' and amulet HTs? I've battled 200/200 armies TvP with almost every unit combination except BCs and i pretty much get erased by a combination of HT and Colossus. All those Protoss' out there should try the unit tester map and see what happens.
While I hate HTs in mass army fights, I have to say that 3 HTs cannot stop a bio drop, if you bring Marauders. You'd need 1.5 storm durations to kill a Marauder that is not being healed. Of course, since late-game Protoss have 15 Warp Gates they can just warp in 10 Zealots instead and save the gas.
HTs are obscene support and harassment units, but they can't fight without a wall of Zealot/Stalker/Sentries.
HT drop/warp-in mineral line harass though, ugh. The Strelok vs Hasu game AskJoshy casted a few days ago shows Hasu decimating Strelok's economy with I think 2 Storms from HTs that sneak behind the enemy. For Terran to have the same effect, they'd need to drop an unnoticed Nuke or a Drop Ship's worth of blue-flame Hellions.
Obviously you arent just storming that army.. with colossus and zealot support.. Terran cant dodge forever. HT will bring the units to the red and colossus will take 1 swipe at it.
I think its sort of telling that you're talking about how FF prevents kiting. In general kiting is a sign of being in a more aggressive stance (not always but often). You don't generally get the opportunity to do a lot of kiting when you're being put on the defensive.
As for needing more marines vs zealots - I would agree, and I think that a lot of terrans are too heavy on marauders in TvP because they want to attack very hard and marauders are so good for kiting. Marine dps is really insane. Guardian shield helps zealots - but honestly - as the fight scales to around 20+ supply unmacro'd marines beat gateway units handily (guardian shield included).
I think that arguing that all things being equal toss has a distinctive advantage at tier 1.5 is sort of ridiculous.
TvP is a really sort of crappy match in that its -so- sensitive to blunders. Early game positioning blunders for P is gg, late game positioning blunders by T is gg. Those blunders can be very small but will will result in game deciding landslide. TvP is extremely unforgiving, and thats why it sucks as a match. I don't think that its really imba. Just incredibly unforgiving of very small errors for either side.
I assume you meant unmicroed 20+ suppply. This is only true because protoss are forced to get sentries and stalkers to damage kiting bioballs and so this weakens there army in a straight up toe to toe. If they were able to get a ton of zealots and get a good surface area of attack the unmicroed protoss ball would win (obviously this kind of analysis is irrelevant because at some critical mass a pure marine ball would in turn win). I mentioned in my post that I think that gateway v bio is only balanced with the addition of good forcefields on the part of the protoss.
I don't think kiting necessarily implies aggressive, I kite protoss back into my base/mineral lines all the time, its the only way to win. I think the reason that T armies tend to be maurader heavy is that as soon as that first collosus/HT pops, all your marines are rendered basically worthless, so you need to set up your rax with this in mind. That said perhaps an extra reactor rax would be helpful that could be switched over to the starport later on.
Edit: In regards to replays, in game 3 of jinro v MC, MC destroys jinro with good forcefield usage - he doesnt actually use zealots as I have described, but its the only replays I've watched recently.
On December 14 2010 05:26 Offhand wrote: Why is it that every argument about protoss units being too good always comes with the assumption that we have infinite gas?
This discussion is concerning late-game Protoss, and focuses on how Terran cannot let Protoss take his 3rd. If Protoss has a 3rd, that's 6 geysers, which means, yeah, you're gonna be rolling in Gas.
And it's not as if you need 28 Templars or something to decimate a bioball. 4-5 good Storms will do that, and that's 3 fully charged Templars, or 5 just warped. That's... 600 gas in total, which a single Geyser can get in you about 2 minutes.
I think you should read up on units costs and such before making these conclusions. HTs are 50/150 for starters.
I'm aware that they are 50/150. I discount the mineral cost, because you were speaking about infinite Gas, and because there's probably something wrong if people with HT tech cannot shell out 200 minerals, but can shell out 600 gas. And 600 gas = 4 templars = 4 storms on the go, which is enough to drain pretty much all Medivac energy at the very, very least.
Yeah it probably had something to do with the fact that 4 templars aren't mentioned anywhere in your previous post. But good recovery.
On December 13 2010 23:24 4Servy wrote: once protoss has the amulet its gg, its ridic how imba that upgrade is my dog can win with protoss after they got the amulet.
1120 Damage vs 14 Stalkers with 1 emp
1150 Damage vs 23 zealots with 1 emp.
700 to 7 Colossus
1100 to 11 Immortals
Not to mention units clump under colossus, similar to air units. And Emp is a much faster tech than storm.
A perfectly placed storm on 80 clumped marines on hold postion will kill 23 marines, inflicting 1035 damage.
960 to 12 Marauders standing still
22 Ghosts for 1750 damage.... (that made me laugh)
So maybe once you get emp, you should hand your keyboard to your dog, let him do his thing. And yes I know emp will never kill my units, but its an advantage nonetheless and it has more front end damage than storm (which can't be stacked). Good yes, Imba... Probably not.
I am sure clumping units together in a unit tester is fun, but it doesnt help balance this portion of the game. There are many other factors to consider, such as:
1) We need to stim (do drugs much?), and one storm over a stimmed marine is either dead or under 10 health. Emp kills nothing, it just takes shields away (see points 7 & 8), and your base unit has a lot more HP than it does shields. To put this more simply, storms KILLS stuff while emp hurts stuff.
2) In order not to die, we need to *RUN*, and when *running* we are not doing damage, and you ARE doing damage. As soon as we stop running, another storm makes us get our nike's back on again. (do we do damage while running?)
3) You can blanket the entire area with storms forcing T to just die or run away and have half health remaining (unless of course you lead your army with all your templars clumped together so that we can hit them all nice and neat). (there are situations where everyone needs their units spread.)
4) There is very little chance of you hitting the maximum amount of units with one emp, and once emp hits, casting another one is useless, unlike storm. Storm can be re-cast, even on top of each other, and become more effective. (storm doesn't stack btw, and how is it any different than hitting units with storm?)
5) The combination of FF and storm really does make bio useless in any head to head encounter. These two in combination make positioning a total loss for bio. (yeah I guess you should build more than just Rax to prepare for Colos and HT, like T does "every game")
6) Positioning in battle in TvP is very very important because of FF and colossus range, and Storm can completely shape the formation of the battle position, since you can not stand under the storm. So, even if you get good position, you are forced OUT of your good position because storms will kill you. (positioning is always important in battle, anyone can take advantage of units with range, you know tanks right? Maybe vikings?)
7) The unit that casts storm also has a zapping spell to take out the one unit that helps us survive or recover from a storm fest, I speak of course of the medivac. P gets free medivacs with its rediculous shield recovery rate. (You got me there, feedback is the bee's knees, and the reason the HT doesn't have an attack. Can't you heal every unit to 100%?)
8) To go along with #7, if your toss army gets emped in the open field, you can run away. If you are a bad player or just unlucky, and we do happen to zap all your temps, just run and get your shields back. By the time you run half way across Xelnaga caverns, all of your z's are back to full sheilds without having an army of 100/100 units flying over them. (you can run too, you said something about doing that earlier. Just stay away from the deadend called your base that everyone has to deal with.)
Just a few points about the real game vs unit tester clumping shots.
Yeah totally, to bad my whole point wasn't about the balance of the match-up of the "real" game. I only wanted to show the people who think storm is op, that emp is no different. Anyways I commented in the spoiler to.
I'll say it again. 2-3 storms kill tons of units. 1 Emp does damage.. but thats it. You cant Emp again to kill the units. Take a bio ball and kill it with 3 HT. Take a Gateway ball and try killing it with "more expensive" 2-3 ghosts.
Edit: And if you think emp will catch every HT.. remember Protoss will be warping in HTs continuously with Zealots/Archons to tank.
So? Don't build 15 ghosts? I need 15 HT to hold off your 8 rax. No one said emp straight up killed units, but I'm pretty sure all your pretty bullets do. And it does more damage in 1 second than storm does in 4, and nothing you can say disproves that (except arguing unit position, which is relative to a bajillion other things including player skill.) Thats the only reason I showed those numbers. Think about it, 1 emp/1 second/instant damage up 100 shields, 1 storm/80 damage over 4 seconds. I think you underestimate emp (err I mean Feedsomback or Steedback or Feedorn...errr...feedback-and-storm-in-one).
I played T this game like PvZ, constantly pressuring/attacking to keep his army count low until I can get HTs (no colossus were built this 40min game).
Toss really can't survive late game vs T without storm, but I also recognize with the amulet, it's on the slightly OP side. I really don't know what the patch solution is.
On December 14 2010 06:08 whoopadeedoo wrote: Toss really can't survive late game vs T without storm, but I also recognize with the amulet, it's on the slightly OP side. I really don't know what the patch solution is.
Amulet is good. No one is debating that, but it's not nearly as game changing as charge.
I think its sort of telling that you're talking about how FF prevents kiting. In general kiting is a sign of being in a more aggressive stance (not always but often). You don't generally get the opportunity to do a lot of kiting when you're being put on the defensive.
As for needing more marines vs zealots - I would agree, and I think that a lot of terrans are too heavy on marauders in TvP because they want to attack very hard and marauders are so good for kiting. Marine dps is really insane. Guardian shield helps zealots - but honestly - as the fight scales to around 20+ supply unmacro'd marines beat gateway units handily (guardian shield included).
I think that arguing that all things being equal toss has a distinctive advantage at tier 1.5 is sort of ridiculous.
TvP is a really sort of crappy match in that its -so- sensitive to blunders. Early game positioning blunders for P is gg, late game positioning blunders by T is gg. Those blunders can be very small but will will result in game deciding landslide. TvP is extremely unforgiving, and thats why it sucks as a match. I don't think that its really imba. Just incredibly unforgiving of very small errors for either side.
I assume you meant unmicroed 20+ suppply. This is only true because protoss are forced to get sentries and stalkers to damage kiting bioballs and so this weakens there army in a straight up toe to toe. If they were able to get a ton of zealots and get a good surface area of attack the unmicroed protoss ball would win (obviously this kind of analysis is irrelevant because at some critical mass a pure marine ball would in turn win). I mentioned in my post that I think that gateway v bio is only balanced with the addition of good forcefields on the part of the protoss.
I don't think kiting necessarily implies aggressive, I kite protoss back into my base/mineral lines all the time, its the only way to win. I think the reason that T armies tend to be maurader heavy is that as soon as that first collosus/HT pops, all your marines are rendered basically worthless, so you need to set up your rax with this in mind. That said perhaps an extra reactor rax would be helpful that could be switched over to the starport later on.
In regards to replays, I'm not exactly sure in which one (except it definitely wasnt in game 4), but I believe if you watch the first 3 of the Jinro v MC series you will see what I mean.
I'll watch the game again.
In all honesty I think that ghosts remain a under utilized early game in the same way that sentries are often under utilized late game. T should probably mix in ghosts in at a ~10-1 supply ratio in absolutely every T army I would include this in drops.
So yeah - for every 10 marines you have you should probably have around 1 ghost when playing vs toss. EMP is -so- good.
Often times - even in pro games you will see toss neglect to reinforce sentries in late mid or late game. This usually results in shitty results. I think the ghost situation is similar with terran - T tends to think of a ghost as a templar counter, when it should just really always be present in every T army (including almost all drops - you know how fast buildings go down w/ no shields?).
That's why I tend to think that terran play in TvP isn't as refined as it should be.
[B] However when the game last longer i simply die to mass zealot. When both have their 3 up it becomes rly hard 4 me tp spend my mins in time and i often end up having 1000 overmins and 0 gas.
hellions work wonders against a lot of zealots, and if you have excess mins throw a reactor fact down and get like 8 hellions. it works imo
On December 14 2010 05:49 shynee wrote: Why are people still comparing ghosts with HT? In the late game ghosts build slowly and aren't available to warp in where ever u need them... Example: Huge bio drop in main? Warp in 2-3 HT and kill them... Cant warp in ghosts.. too bad.. die.
People dont understand that Terran HAS to push early and exploit timing windows. Its not that Terran players dont know how to marco.. they just can't compete. Do you expect Terran to sit and macro vs toss so that he can mass up 10 colossus' and amulet HTs? I've battled 200/200 armies TvP with almost every unit combination except BCs and i pretty much get erased by a combination of HT and Colossus. All those Protoss' out there should try the unit tester map and see what happens.
While I hate HTs in mass army fights, I have to say that 3 HTs cannot stop a bio drop, if you bring Marauders. You'd need 1.5 storm durations to kill a Marauder that is not being healed. Of course, since late-game Protoss have 15 Warp Gates they can just warp in 10 Zealots instead and save the gas.
HTs are obscene support and harassment units, but they can't fight without a wall of Zealot/Stalker/Sentries.
HT drop/warp-in mineral line harass though, ugh. The Strelok vs Hasu game AskJoshy casted a few days ago shows Hasu decimating Strelok's economy with I think 2 Storms from HTs that sneak behind the enemy. For Terran to have the same effect, they'd need to drop an unnoticed Nuke or a Drop Ship's worth of blue-flame Hellions.
Obviously you arent just storming that army.. with colossus and zealot support.. Terran cant dodge forever. HT will bring the units to the red and colossus will take 1 swipe at it.
I've found having several Ghosts is essential in TvP. Most Protoss players cannot get both Colossi and Templars in numbers that matter until at least 3 bases and ~25 minutes in my experience, so you really only have to defend against one of the two unless you leave them alone for too long (I'm only 1600 Diamond, though, so this is low Diamond opinions).
Whenever I lose against Protoss, it's because I let their army get too big. FF and Storm scale with army sizes, since they can separate or hit more units the larger the armies. You want to keep trading armies with him. Here's what I do:
I start with 3 Rax with my Engi Bay going down after the first Rax and try to get a very fast 1/1, start my CC and push when Stim finishes. I try to hold off on Stim until the two armies are entangled and he cannot withdraw from the engagement, and at this point we usually just trade armies, as even if he went a very, very quick Colossus, his Extended Thermal Lances are probably unfinished, and its vulnerable to Stim'd Marauders (only your Marauders, leave your Marines to their own devices and rush his Colossus with your Marauders). If I push him to his natural, I'll try to either kill workers/Nexus, or just back off. You want to keep his army small.
While this is happening, I'll have put down another Rax (I go tech lab, reactor, tech lab, tech lab), and got my Fact w/ Reactor to swap with Starport for 2 Medivacs. At this point, if he's going Colossi, I get ~8 Vikings before making more Medivacs. If he is going Templar, I put up my Ghost Academy and get 2 Ghosts immediately, then I start Moebius Reactor and then Cloak, as well as more Raxes.
Now two things will happen:
If we fight, I get my Ghosts to the 2nd line of my bio ball and fire my EMPs. Ghosts come out faster than Templars, so I can usually just decimate his army before his Templars can get Storm energy.
If we don't, I expand again, get a Planetary Fortress, and macro with a 2nd Starport if he's Colossus-ing hardcore or 2 more Raxes.
If we enter late game with big armies, things get hard. Make sure your upgrades are up to snuff, go double Engi Bay, upgrades are insanely good. Get 1-2 Ghosts in a separate control group and keep them to the side, also, get 1-2 Medivacs, load them up with Marauders, put them in a hotkey, and just park them out of sight right next to his main over a chasm (when's the last time Protoss players got air against T? ).
Make sure your Ghosts are in the second line of your ball so they can get in range to fire off EMPs in the beginning of the fight at the Templars, but are shielded from the Chargelots.
As soon as the fight starts, I EMP with my main group, as many as you can, your Ghosts likely will not survive so just fire everything. Stim, A-move, dodge the first volley of Storms if necessary. Then, I get my Medivacs, and tell them to drop into the main base Then, cloak my 2 side Ghosts and move them around the battle, get them behind the enemy, between his base and the fight. Now, the Medivacs are probably unloaded, Stim the Marauders, A-Move them towards the opposite side of the base and let them go at it.
Now, in the main battle, micro away from storms, get Vikings to shoot Colossus, etc. Keep an eye on your two side Ghosts, however, as the main battle honestly does not require much micro. The Protoss player will do one of two things: he'll respond to the drop in his base with Zealot warps, or he will try to win the main fight with HT warps. If he Zealot warps, try to snipe what buildings you can, aim for things like Templar Archives and Robotics Support Bays, move your two Ghosts back behind his army and EMP/Snipe some HTs. If he HT warps, your side Ghosts are in perfect position to EMP his HTs mid-warp in. They are now useless, and you have likely won the game right there, as by the time his Warpgate CD finishes, you're at his expansion.
Sorry, long post, but this IS more for strategy than for complaining.
Wrong speedy, the reason your argument doesnt make any sense is because although you could potentially do more overall damage with emp then storm, there is a cap in that damage and protoss units have more health/take up more space then terran units. Thus while protoss can continue to attack after a blanket emp (which would require a ridiculous number of fairly weak ghosts), terran cannot attack through a blanket storm so they are forced to micro out of it while protoss have the option of continuing the attack. In the event that you successfully micro out of a storm, you can then be stormed again, whereas protoss units cannot be empd again, this makes the abilities fundamentally different and storm altho on a 1-1 basis does appear weaker, on a large scale basis is clearly stronger. Also the ability to instantly warp in and storm where needed is clearly far superior to having a long build time out of the rax with an ability which is only helpful as a supporting spell for the reasons articulated above.
On December 14 2010 05:26 Offhand wrote: Why is it that every argument about protoss units being too good always comes with the assumption that we have infinite gas?
This discussion is concerning late-game Protoss, and focuses on how Terran cannot let Protoss take his 3rd. If Protoss has a 3rd, that's 6 geysers, which means, yeah, you're gonna be rolling in Gas.
And it's not as if you need 28 Templars or something to decimate a bioball. 4-5 good Storms will do that, and that's 3 fully charged Templars, or 5 just warped. That's... 600 gas in total, which a single Geyser can get in you about 2 minutes.
I think you should read up on units costs and such before making these conclusions. HTs are 50/150 for starters.
I'm aware that they are 50/150. I discount the mineral cost, because you were speaking about infinite Gas, and because there's probably something wrong if people with HT tech cannot shell out 200 minerals, but can shell out 600 gas. And 600 gas = 4 templars = 4 storms on the go, which is enough to drain pretty much all Medivac energy at the very, very least.
Yeah it probably had something to do with the fact that 4 templars aren't mentioned anywhere in your previous post. But good recovery.
My previous post did mention that 4-5 storms require 3 charged Templars or 4-5 newly warped in Templars. Though I admit some people may not make the leap in logic to mean the 600 gas means Templar warp-in cost.
On December 14 2010 06:08 whoopadeedoo wrote: Toss really can't survive late game vs T without storm, but I also recognize with the amulet, it's on the slightly OP side. I really don't know what the patch solution is.
Amulet is good. No one is debating that, but it's not nearly as game changing as charge.
I agree with this completely. Zealots without Charge is pretty much fodder. When the Protoss research Charge is, in my opinion, the turning point when Terran bioballs begin to lose effectiveness.
I propose the following hypothesis: with the map fully exposed (i.e. map hack), protoss would never lose to terran. It is my opinion that protoss can design (and execute very easily) a build which completely shuts terran down if they have the required information. As players continue to develop their innate game sense and timings, protoss' win rate will increase and terran's early game advantage will diminish.
In my own experience and opinion (that of a 2k Terran), TvP is fairly balanced. It isn't 100% there, but I'm not even sure if I could say which side it favored. But this is an evolving game, Blizzard's hardly done with it, and it's not like I'm flailing about desperately in need of effective strategies (as so many are in TvZ).
On December 14 2010 06:29 HalfAmazing wrote: I propose the following hypothesis: with the map fully exposed (i.e. map hack), protoss would never lose to terran. It is my opinion that protoss can design (and execute very easily) a build which completely shuts terran down if they have the required information. As players continue to develop their innate game sense and timings, protoss' win rate will increase and terran's early game advantage will diminish.
You seem to forget that Protoss already have Observers, which are in essence miniature maphacks.
On December 14 2010 06:29 HalfAmazing wrote: I propose the following hypothesis: with the map fully exposed (i.e. map hack), protoss would never lose to terran. It is my opinion that protoss can design (and execute very easily) a build which completely shuts terran down if they have the required information. As players continue to develop their innate game sense and timings, protoss' win rate will increase and terran's early game advantage will diminish.
Yeah, there's a reason we make robos for just obs. Just obs means you can react to most things:
1) Deals with your banshee opening 2) Tells me when we both expand 3) Can react with immortals 4) Bates out vikings
That's probably the most common mistake terran players make. A robo is an increasingly functional building without the need to make collosi. Collosi are too easy managed by marauders and vikings.
Storm and gateway upgrades are really the best way to deal with terran threats.
why are so many protosses posting in here saying how imba op terran is and how we need to learn to play and everything we have counter everything they have, whats the poing of those posts ???
On December 13 2010 23:51 freetgy wrote: So is Ghost after the energie upgrade... HT without 75 energy are useless, while Ghosts are not.
Terran has so much advantage for Early Agression, Attack, delay the enemy Natural while expanding this should always give you an economic advantage, now build up and try some drop harass.
So many good harass options , use it.
HT with Storm and Energie Upgrade is almost the highest Techlevel Protoss can get, if you then are still walking around with M&M sure you gonna die.
+1 there is no possible way to defend everywhere at once. find the cracks and exploit them, fake attacks to zone an enemy. if you find yourself in a straight up 3 base macro game where you haven't done this, you wasted your time.
if both players blindly macro up and 3 base, then sure p>t
if t uses it's mobility advantage all game, I can't see how a 3rd can go down and be saturated safely.
On December 13 2010 23:51 freetgy wrote: So is Ghost after the energie upgrade... HT without 75 energy are useless, while Ghosts are not.
Terran has so much advantage for Early Agression, Attack, delay the enemy Natural while expanding this should always give you an economic advantage, now build up and try some drop harass.
So many good harass options , use it.
HT with Storm and Energie Upgrade is almost the highest Techlevel Protoss can get, if you then are still walking around with M&M sure you gonna die.
+1 there is no possible way to defend everywhere at once. find the cracks and exploit them, fake attacks to zone an enemy. if you find yourself in a straight up 3 base macro game where you haven't done this, you wasted your time.
if both players blindly macro up and 3 base, then sure p>t
if t uses it's mobility advantage all game, I can't see how a 3rd can go down and be saturated safely.
People talking about ghosts have obviously either never tried to user them or just play at a lower level.
First off this post is about late game TvP. I don't care about your thoughts about ghosts early and neither does anyone else. Make a new thread.
Late game even if a protoss is dumb enough to get his templars emp'd that's not the issue. I can't suddenly bust out with 5 extra emp's late in the fight. You just warp in some new templar and storm away. Even if I win the fight when my weakend army gets to your expo you warp in some charge-lots to hold and some templar to storm and my army disappears. Even blizzard has said that templar with the amulet are to hard for terran to counter (see blizcon). In fact if I remember correctly (can't look this up as I am on my phone) didn't blizzard say that TvP is poorly balanced because T>P early and P>T late? So if your contribution to this thread asking how a terran can deal with late game protoss is "lol get ghost newb!!11!" Close your browser and leave the thread.
It seems to me that blue flame hellions are great against zealot-templar but I think its to micro intensive with the rest if your army storm dancing.
On December 14 2010 06:39 Endbringer wrote: People talking about ghosts have obviously either never tried to user them or just play at a lower level.
First off this post is about late game TvP. I don't care about your thoughts about ghosts early and neither does anyone else. Make a new thread.
Late game even if a protoss is dumb enough to get his templars emp'd that's not the issue. I can't suddenly bust out with 5 extra emp's late in the fight. You just warp in some new templar and storm away. Even if I win the fight when my weakend army gets to your expo you warp in some charge-lots to hold and some templar to storm and my army disappears. Even blizzard has said that templar with the amulet are to hard for terran to counter (see blizcon). In fact if I remember correctly (can't look this up as I am on my phone) didn't blizzard say that TvP is poorly balanced because T>P early and P>T late? So if your contribution to this thread asking how a terran can deal with late game protoss is "lol get ghost newb!!11!" Close your browser and leave the thread.
It seems to me that blue flame hellions are great against zealot-templar but I think its to micro intensive with the rest if your army storm dancing.
It seems like you're either fighting next to the proxy pylon, or trying to take his base. Don't fight next to the proxy pylon and don't complain about about another races ability to turtle.
On December 13 2010 23:51 freetgy wrote: So is Ghost after the energie upgrade... HT without 75 energy are useless, while Ghosts are not.
Terran has so much advantage for Early Agression, Attack, delay the enemy Natural while expanding this should always give you an economic advantage, now build up and try some drop harass.
So many good harass options , use it.
HT with Storm and Energie Upgrade is almost the highest Techlevel Protoss can get, if you then are still walking around with M&M sure you gonna die.
+1 there is no possible way to defend everywhere at once. find the cracks and exploit them, fake attacks to zone an enemy. if you find yourself in a straight up 3 base macro game where you haven't done this, you wasted your time.
if both players blindly macro up and 3 base, then sure p>t
if t uses it's mobility advantage all game, I can't see how a 3rd can go down and be saturated safely.
you do know protoss can be agressive also right ?
But most Protoss aren't. The reason for this is that Terran bio can move around much easier than Protoss ground, due to Medivacs, and the fact that in a small scale fight, MMM beats the tar out of Protoss Gateway. To properly utilize FF, you'd need at least 2-3 fully charged Sentries, and even then you still need enough firepower to out-DPS Stim and Medivac heal. This encourages Protoss to fight huge battles with huge armies.
If you always drop into their bases whenever they try to move out, Protoss will never be aggressive, and at 3 base it's hard to defend so they generally just park their army between all three and wait until they're maxed.
Terran depends on aggression and keeping unit counts low for both players in all match-ups, from my experience. You can't just A-Move 200/200 armies into each other against other races and expect to win, unless you only build BCs or something.
Charge is definitely not a gamechanging upgrade. Although increasing zealot's effectiveness, kiting is still easy to do. The biggest problems with tvp are that colossus do too much damage in high numbers, and are too difficult to take down, and that warp in storm and 5+ storms wipe out armies instantly. Also, protoss macro is a lot easier than terran macro, as warping in units allows for protoss to still survive after losing a battle. If Terran loses a battle, the game is pretty much over.
I think that bio is simply not viable. I've played games where i have been maxed, with more bases than protoss, and with bio/mass viking vs 140 supply protoss and still losing because of colossus and warp in storm.
After losing so many games I clearly should not have with bio, i decided to switch up my composition. Mass marine/banshee opening to midgame is very, very strong. It also lets you transition easily to battlecruiser/thor, which I think is going to be the new lategame composition. Here's an example of what I mean:
However, I think my opening is much stronger. Using banshees in as a large part of your army early is much stronger than using them for harass. Once templar come, banshees become rather useless. At that point, the thor/battlecruiser switch is the best thing to do.
I think that saying that anything is overpowered at this point is simply wrong. Zergs complained about reaper openings, and even before the nerf it wasn't strong build because Zergs figured out how to counter it. There's still a lot to explore in TvP. I do think that voidrays need a supply change, as they are by far the highest costing units for the supply. Lategame, assuming that it isn't controlled incorrectly, the army that costs more will win.
On December 14 2010 06:39 Endbringer wrote: People talking about ghosts have obviously either never tried to user them or just play at a lower level.
First off this post is about late game TvP. I don't care about your thoughts about ghosts early and neither does anyone else. Make a new thread.
Late game even if a protoss is dumb enough to get his templars emp'd that's not the issue. I can't suddenly bust out with 5 extra emp's late in the fight. You just warp in some new templar and storm away. Even if I win the fight when my weakend army gets to your expo you warp in some charge-lots to hold and some templar to storm and my army disappears. Even blizzard has said that templar with the amulet are to hard for terran to counter (see blizcon). In fact if I remember correctly (can't look this up as I am on my phone) didn't blizzard say that TvP is poorly balanced because T>P early and P>T late? So if your contribution to this thread asking how a terran can deal with late game protoss is "lol get ghost newb!!11!" Close your browser and leave the thread.
It seems to me that blue flame hellions are great against zealot-templar but I think its to micro intensive with the rest if your army storm dancing.
Have you ever tried to have a cloaked Ghost or two standing between the army v army fight and his base/pylon? I've caught loads of HTs mid-warp in with an EMP that wins me the game that way.
Not even pro level players have Observers placed everywhere, and Templars that are mid-warp cannot FB you. I've also never seen anyone hold enough units back to defend his Templars mid-warp that you cannot even get a single Range 9 EMP in.
On December 14 2010 06:39 Endbringer wrote: People talking about ghosts have obviously either never tried to user them or just play at a lower level.
First off this post is about late game TvP. I don't care about your thoughts about ghosts early and neither does anyone else. Make a new thread.
Late game even if a protoss is dumb enough to get his templars emp'd that's not the issue. I can't suddenly bust out with 5 extra emp's late in the fight. You just warp in some new templar and storm away. Even if I win the fight when my weakend army gets to your expo you warp in some charge-lots to hold and some templar to storm and my army disappears. Even blizzard has said that templar with the amulet are to hard for terran to counter (see blizcon). In fact if I remember correctly (can't look this up as I am on my phone) didn't blizzard say that TvP is poorly balanced because T>P early and P>T late? So if your contribution to this thread asking how a terran can deal with late game protoss is "lol get ghost newb!!11!" Close your browser and leave the thread.
It seems to me that blue flame hellions are great against zealot-templar but I think its to micro intensive with the rest if your army storm dancing.
Have you ever tried to have a cloaked Ghost or two standing between the army v army fight and his base/pylon? I've caught loads of HTs mid-warp in with an EMP that wins me the game that way.
Not even pro level players have Observers placed everywhere, and Templars that are mid-warp cannot FB you. I've also never seen anyone hold enough units back to defend his Templars mid-warp that you cannot even get a single Range 9 EMP in.
realy, what are you doing still posting in this thread, obviously no terran want your oppinion you're just saying some fluff that doesnt help anyone
On December 14 2010 06:39 Endbringer wrote: People talking about ghosts have obviously either never tried to user them or just play at a lower level.
First off this post is about late game TvP. I don't care about your thoughts about ghosts early and neither does anyone else. Make a new thread.
Late game even if a protoss is dumb enough to get his templars emp'd that's not the issue. I can't suddenly bust out with 5 extra emp's late in the fight. You just warp in some new templar and storm away. Even if I win the fight when my weakend army gets to your expo you warp in some charge-lots to hold and some templar to storm and my army disappears. Even blizzard has said that templar with the amulet are to hard for terran to counter (see blizcon). In fact if I remember correctly (can't look this up as I am on my phone) didn't blizzard say that TvP is poorly balanced because T>P early and P>T late? So if your contribution to this thread asking how a terran can deal with late game protoss is "lol get ghost newb!!11!" Close your browser and leave the thread.
It seems to me that blue flame hellions are great against zealot-templar but I think its to micro intensive with the rest if your army storm dancing.
Have you ever tried to have a cloaked Ghost or two standing between the army v army fight and his base/pylon? I've caught loads of HTs mid-warp in with an EMP that wins me the game that way.
Not even pro level players have Observers placed everywhere, and Templars that are mid-warp cannot FB you. I've also never seen anyone hold enough units back to defend his Templars mid-warp that you cannot even get a single Range 9 EMP in.
realy, what are you doing still posting in this thread, obviously no terran want your oppinion you're just saying some fluff that doesnt help anyone
Have you ever tried it? Is 150/150 and 2 supply too much cost to support this? Is there something fundamentally wrong with this strategy?
I am not complaining about a turtling protoss, I would just like to win the game at some point. That means after I kill his army I have to attack him. Hopefully he has a pylon next to his expo/base...
I have not tried cloaking a ghost or two in between his army and his warp in point. I will try that although I am doubtfull about my ability to win the big fight without those two ghosts. I don't often just have them lying around playing peanuckle Still it is an idea and that's what this thread is for!
Edit- Yay 1.5x the mineral income! That's awesome late game! I am always so mineral starved. Thank god I can build a million marines that all die to storm or a bunch of hellions that actually spontaneously combust in front of a late game army. Mules have nothing to do with this discussion, try reading.
Oh man haven't read it all, but have to chime out. I'm 2500 terran, and I used to LOVE TvP as I could 2 base push VERY hard and 65% of the time, win. However, as toss get more epic with their 4 sentry-unstoppable-expo-no-early-aggression-allowed open you're forced into a macro game, where they can pump out a few colosai, you have to be fucking on poooooint, with concaves, stimming, kiting, and picking off colosai, which honestly MMghost/banshe or raven something/viking, does QUITE well against zeal stalker immortal collsai sentry, it's the HT that is the unbeatable part.
As someone said that I read, you HAVE to constantly drop on their base to pick off pylons, tech structures, forges to stop upgrades (zealots are SO dirty with 3/0/3) and on top of that try and deny their inevitable 3rd expansion. If toss gets to 4 base, it's over. Even with a full army, you can't go attack anything but their main, or whatever has the most gateways, as they can and will warp in 8 HTs with storm ready. Sure, I emp and snipe 6 of em, two storms eat up your whole army, and they lost practically nothing.
After you trade armies, at best, they get to warp in instantly, chrono their warpgates, OR their robos to quick tech to collsai. Sure, we get mules, they get an almost instant army. For one cycle of marines/marauder/medic, I get I'll say 3-4 maras, 1 ghost, 4-8 marines x 2 if I include 2 medics. Over a minute of build. They get like 8 HTs, 8 zeals, 1 collsai, 2 stalkers, 1-2 sentry in instant warp lol..Ask any toss, 'you can't tech switch easily' True early in the game which is where we have to pull ahead drastically., but once they sat 2 bases, or take a 3rd, it's lights out. You have to hit in a perfect spot, with as I call them, MONEY SHOOOOOT EMPs, and hope to lord you got all the HTs and the zealots don't run through you.
However, I can't say it's impossible to win late game TvP, if you can lure toss into a good position for a battle, and say cloak in and emp their HTs and then snipe off zealots, you're in good shape to do some quiiiiiick damage with stim marauder rapage.
However. TvP, very hard for me now. Ghosts early, and often seem to make life easier.
On December 14 2010 06:58 ssregitoss wrote: amulet is deadly but you have 1.5x income compare to protoss with mules.what about that?
every toss here is saying how much better the terran has is better but the difference is you make an army and if you win a battle you go atack and win, we make an army and after we win a battle we cant go atack and win cause most of the units are damaged and by the time we get to your base you warpin 3 hts and kill whats left of our army, so basicly there is not much of a chance to win unless you totaly crush his army, which you shouldnt if he has hts and isnt realy bad or he runs out of money
On December 14 2010 07:00 Endbringer wrote: I am not complaining about a turtling protoss, I would just like to win the game at some point. That means after I kill his army I have to attack him. Hopefully he has a pylon next to his expo/base...
I have not tried cloaking a ghost or two in between his army and his warp in point. I will try that although I am doubtfull about my ability to win the big fight without those two ghosts. I don't often just have them lying around playing peanuckle Still it is an idea and that's what this thread is for!
Edit- Yay 1.5x the mineral income! That's awesome late game! I am always so mineral starved. Thank god I can build a million marines that all die to storm or a bunch of hellions that actually spontaneously combust in front of a late game army. Mules have nothing to do with this discussion, try reading.
By the time the big fight arrives, I usually have around 4-5 Ghosts. From my experience (only about 100 TvPs, I admit), 2-3 Ghosts mixed into your big army in front is usually enough unless your opponent is a god with Feedback. You want to target HTs that are near the front, then Sentries if they're grouped up, and finally Stalker/Immortals, and try to fire your EMPs that are not aimed at casters slightly after the first volley, so they can't just turn around and run until shields regen.
Alternatively, if you feel you cannot spare the 2 Ghosts, if you can spare 1-2 Dropships of Marauders that can also work, as if you drop into his main as soon as the fight happens (drop the Marauders at the edge of his base with a hotkey of the Dropship and the Marauders, stim the Marauders, then just A-Move on your minimap to the opposite side of the base). In most cases, your opponent will be forced to decide if he wants his Warpgate cycle to be for HTs, or to warp in Zealots to stop your Marauders from trashing his base. This can also indirectly prevent the next wave of HTs, at least a few of them.
Always try to drop a different location/expansion each time you do this, as he'll likely wise up and leave 3-4 Stalkers at your old drop site.
Since Protoss usually does not go air, I try to keep a Dropship or two just hovering outside his bases. If you have the same economy, missing 4 Marauders or 2 Ghosts will not win or lose you a fight, and after you do the drop(s) you don't have to micro, while he is distracted during the more critical moments of the fight, since it's already started. Protoss love big battles but lose at small ones, and since you can constantly send a stream of units while he has bursts of units every 20 seconds or so, if you make him mess up his initial group of warp-ins (ie. commit too many Zealots to fight your Marauder drop), you suddenly have the advantage.
I think the problem is that people take this game too seriously. 99% of the people on this board are not pros, yet they seem to focus on studying some build orders and such. theres nothing wrong with that; however, if, maybe, people started to play around with the mechanics, tech paths etc of the game and testing unconventional things, then ghost play, thors, mech will all come around. pros cant really do that stuff because money and reputation is on the line. they'll always do what they are comfortable with. but the rest of us should all be fucking around half the time. Then, the game will really develop. its not the pros that develop the game. its the little guy thats screwing around and doing gimmicky stuff.
when i started playing, every p feared early bio pushes. then we learned to pump out a quick collosus while ff ramp. now, i dont even open robo unless i feel cloak is coming. i open phoenix most of the time. all the while t players still use bio exclusively.
that being said. why dont t players integrate thors, tanks, or ghosts into their army MORE. P palyers usually have 7 temps in their army. there will be like 2 ghosts, or 3 tanks in the t's. thats not enough imo for those units to be effective. why dont you guys use nukes more often? why not drop 4 (or whatever fits in the dropship) reapers with nitro in the p's base and wreck havoc. that slow ass thor can be put into the dropship youll have and then dropped in battle. its not like most of us dont have the 400-500 minerals and 300 gas lying around. try something other than the same thing.
for what its worth, I'm 2100 diamond p and I have never used, nor do i know any bo. let the guys who make a living worry about that crap. its nice to know, but its more nice to screw around and have fun... I definitely dont think one upgrade or warpin is the problem here. I think its more of the fact that nonprofessional terran players keep doing the same shit over and over again. either mmm, some banshee pdd timing, or an scv thor or whatever all in. and the latter are very rare, at least at my lvl.
On December 14 2010 07:00 Endbringer wrote: I am not complaining about a turtling protoss, I would just like to win the game at some point. That means after I kill his army I have to attack him. Hopefully he has a pylon next to his expo/base...
I have not tried cloaking a ghost or two in between his army and his warp in point. I will try that although I am doubtfull about my ability to win the big fight without those two ghosts. I don't often just have them lying around playing peanuckle Still it is an idea and that's what this thread is for!
Edit- Yay 1.5x the mineral income! That's awesome late game! I am always so mineral starved. Thank god I can build a million marines that all die to storm or a bunch of hellions that actually spontaneously combust in front of a late game army. Mules have nothing to do with this discussion, try reading.
By the time the big fight arrives, I usually have around 4-5 Ghosts. From my experience (only about 100 TvPs, I admit), 2-3 Ghosts mixed into your big army in front is usually enough unless your opponent is a god with Feedback. You want to target HTs that are near the front, then Sentries if they're grouped up, and finally Stalker/Immortals, and try to fire your EMPs that are not aimed at casters slightly after the first volley, so they can't just turn around and run until shields regen.
Alternatively, if you feel you cannot spare the 2 Ghosts, if you can spare 1-2 Dropships of Marauders that can also work, as if you drop into his main as soon as the fight happens (drop the Marauders at the edge of his base with a hotkey of the Dropship and the Marauders, stim the Marauders, then just A-Move on your minimap to the opposite side of the base). In most cases, your opponent will be forced to decide if he wants his Warpgate cycle to be for HTs, or to warp in Zealots to stop your Marauders from trashing his base. This can also indirectly prevent the next wave of HTs, at least a few of them.
Always try to drop a different location/expansion each time you do this, as he'll likely wise up and leave 3-4 Stalkers at your old drop site.
Since Protoss usually does not go air, I try to keep a Dropship or two just hovering outside his bases. If you have the same economy, missing 4 Marauders or 2 Ghosts will not win or lose you a fight, and after you do the drop(s) you don't have to micro, while he is distracted during the more critical moments of the fight, since it's already started. Protoss love big battles but lose at small ones, and since you can constantly send a stream of units while he has bursts of units every 20 seconds or so, if you make him mess up his initial group of warp-ins (ie. commit too many Zealots to fight your Marauder drop), you suddenly have the advantage.
doesnt matter if u manage to emp most of his HTs he just needs 3-4 good storms to rape food capped bio army, also keep in mind that hts are behind P army so to reach them you need to have your ghosts infront exposed to his army. (colo, chargelots etc)
On December 14 2010 07:25 adamb111 wrote: I think the problem is that people take this game too seriously. 99% of the people on this board are not pros, yet they seem to focus on studying some build orders and such. theres nothing wrong with that; however, if, maybe, people started to play around with the mechanics, tech paths etc of the game and testing unconventional things, then ghost play, thors, mech will all come around. pros cant really do that stuff because money and reputation is on the line. they'll always do what they are comfortable with. but the rest of us should all be fucking around half the time. Then, the game will really develop. its not the pros that develop the game. its the little guy thats screwing around and doing gimmicky stuff.
when i started playing, every p feared early bio pushes. then we learned to pump out a quick collosus while ff ramp. now, i dont even open robo unless i feel cloak is coming. i open phoenix most of the time. all the while t players still use bio exclusively.
that being said. why dont t players integrate thors, tanks, or ghosts into their army MORE. P palyers usually have 7 temps in their army. there will be like 2 ghosts, or 3 tanks in the t's. thats not enough imo for those units to be effective. why dont you guys use nukes more often? why not drop 4 (or whatever fits in the dropship) reapers with nitro in the p's base and wreck havoc. that slow ass thor can be put into the dropship youll have and then dropped in battle. its not like most of us dont have the 400-500 minerals and 300 gas lying around. try something other than the same thing.
for what its worth, I'm 2100 diamond p and I have never used, nor do i know any bo. let the guys who make a living worry about that crap. its nice to know, but its more nice to screw around and have fun... I definitely dont think one upgrade or warpin is the problem here. I think its more of the fact that nonprofessional terran players keep doing the same shit over and over again. either mmm, some banshee pdd timing, or an scv thor or whatever all in. and the latter are very rare, at least at my lvl.
pros do mess around with all sorts of diffrent things, just not in tournaments, almost every good strategy has come from a pro trying and prefecting it not someone from bronze messing around and owning it up winning everything and latter everyone in diamond started doing it
On December 14 2010 03:36 soulcrusher wrote: Sounds like you need better ghost micro. Ghost > Templar
On December 14 2010 03:45 Wrongspeedy wrote: So maybe once you get emp, you should hand your keyboard to your dog, let him do his thing. And yes I know emp will never kill my units, but its an advantage nonetheless and it has more front end damage than storm (which can't be stacked). Good yes, Imba... Probably not.
On December 14 2010 05:02 FenneK wrote: And if you really have that much trouble against HT, get some ghosts and EMP. Not hard.
I asked to watch the replays... Both Kas and Servyoa had ghosts and emp'ed a lot. On lost temple kas sniped a few HT's and emped a few. Sollution: warp in 3 more HT's and win. Ghosts are okay against HT, but you will run out of energy soon. HT's will form archons and they will destroy the rest of T's army with 3 new HT's. Then you warp in some zealots and you go to his raxes. GG.
On December 14 2010 07:01 iAmJeffReY wrote: For one cycle of marines/marauder/medic, I get I'll say 3-4 maras, 1 ghost, 4-8 marines x 2 if I include 2 medics. Over a minute of build. They get like 8 HTs, 8 zeals, 1 collsai, 2 stalkers, 1-2 sentry in instant warp lol.r.
Ok, so in your example, your opponent can macro off of 21-22 gates continuously? For the sake of argument, let's assume each fully saturated protoss base can support more-or-less continuous production for 4 gateways, meaning you're fighting a toss with about 5 bases in this scenario. As previously mentioned in this thread, it's gg at this point.
Also, as far as I can work out from your sentence (does the phrase "4-8 marines x2" account for reactors or not?), in your example terran is working with somewhere between 6-13 'raxes and 1 or 2 starports. Amazingly, if you let your opponent build way more stuff than you, the odds are not in your favour.
Finally, I'm surprised at the amount of terrans complaining about protoss being impossible to counterattack after winning a major engagement. What happened to PFs and mass-repair? As a 'toss player, I find that supremely annoying to deal with, and it often stops my advance cold after I win a big fight. Is this not viable at higher levels, or am I missing something?
On December 14 2010 07:01 iAmJeffReY wrote: For one cycle of marines/marauder/medic, I get I'll say 3-4 maras, 1 ghost, 4-8 marines x 2 if I include 2 medics. Over a minute of build. They get like 8 HTs, 8 zeals, 1 collsai, 2 stalkers, 1-2 sentry in instant warp lol.r.
Ok, so in your example, your opponent can macro off of 21-22 gates continuously? For the sake of argument, let's assume each fully saturated protoss base can support more-or-less continuous production for 4 gateways, meaning you're fighting a toss with about 5 bases in this scenario. As previously mentioned in this thread, it's gg at this point.
Also, as far as I can work out from your sentence (does the phrase "4-8 marines x2" account for reactors or not?), in your example terran is working with somewhere between 6-13 'raxes and 1 or 2 starports. Amazingly, if you let your opponent build way more stuff than you, the odds are not in your favour.
Finally, I'm surprised at the amount of terrans complaining about protoss being impossible to counterattack after winning a major engagement. What happened to PFs and mass-repair? As a 'toss player, I find that supremely annoying to deal with, and it often stops my advance cold after I win a big fight. Is this not viable at higher levels, or am I missing something?
On December 14 2010 07:41 Bonham wrote: Finally, I'm surprised at the amount of terrans complaining about protoss being impossible to counterattack after winning a major engagement. What happened to PFs and mass-repair? As a 'toss player, I find that supremely annoying to deal with, and it often stops my advance cold after I win a big fight. Is this not viable at higher levels, or am I missing something?
Just ignore the PFs and go to his raxes when you killed his army. No way that the terran will come back from this. I once lost like this. I had 6 bases and my protoss opponent had 2. I had 188 supply, he had 122 (HT + zealots). I missemped and I mismicro'ed my marauders because I was very confortable. How could I lose with 6 bases against a 2base protoss huh :p. Result: my whole army died. He made some archons and he reinforced very quickly. By the time my marauders were out, he was in my base and there was no way I could come back. After he destroyed my raxes, he killed my PF's.
warp gates have a cooldown too, im not sure why everyone says " well you can warp in 5 ht and i have to walk my ghost across", this all depends on where your fighting. also you can build more then 1 ghost at a time.
Secondly the best thing agianst ht is battlecruiser (with yahmato). sorry it takes t3 to beat t3, ghost are kinda 50/50 vs ht where the entire battle/game depends on micro. but once you get some bc its over. Im not sure why everyone thinks that they should win when their out teched. theres a great qxc game that shows bc>ht a few post back.
On December 14 2010 07:01 iAmJeffReY wrote: For one cycle of marines/marauder/medic, I get I'll say 3-4 maras, 1 ghost, 4-8 marines x 2 if I include 2 medics. Over a minute of build. They get like 8 HTs, 8 zeals, 1 collsai, 2 stalkers, 1-2 sentry in instant warp lol.r.
That my mara, 1 ghost, 4-8 marines would be x2, so 4-8 maras, 8-16 marines, 2 ghosts (if I wait longer) and 2 medivacs, in that time, warp cycle can be either chronoed, or even still the cycle speed is faster than building a marine, which is 30 seconds. So I'm implying, with real game experience not just theorycraft, that if you don't decimate their army, and land an EMP on their warping in HTs, you will not win. The speed protoss rebuild their army is double that of a terran with chrono boost.
Sure, mules are nice. Use a few DTs to harass, and we can't use mules because we have to save scans for DT run bys.
Finally, I'm surprised at the amount of terrans complaining about protoss being impossible to counterattack after winning a major engagement. What happened to PFs and mass-repair? As a 'toss player, I find that supremely annoying to deal with, and it often stops my advance cold after I win a big fight. Is this not viable at higher levels, or am I missing something?
Well, storm has a range of 9. If i upgrade it, my IMMOBILE PF has a range of 7. They can just storm my workers, meaning I'm shit out of macro luck. Even with mass repair, storm eats the SCVs up and the zealots didn't murder the PF too fast to even repair.
All protoss has to do is trade, trade, trade, and trade and you win. That's simple as that. I fool around on my friends account either high or drunk, it's just now 2k, and I'm 2.5k. I had to actually turn my gameplay on vs a 2200 freakin noobie toss, because he could warp in HTs and zeals and rape up my army. He was decent, at best. Again, it was jungle basin, and he did a DT warp -> HT + secure 3rd switch, and I was down since.
TL;DR
Toss have too many options, what with warp prisms *SO UNDERUSED*. Warp in 2 HT right by that PF, storm, and carry them on away. Both safe, and both alive.
Warp in HTs. Upgrades that scale SO incredibly well. Warp in storm ready HTs Easy chrono boost out 2 collsai when I switch to mass marines (due to time ghosts take to build)
I am complaining. I won't say it's at all imbalanced, because early game I can control a lot of the game in open fields, or if I money shot EMP a sentry'ed ramp.
You recharge armies too fast for us to deal with late game.
On December 14 2010 08:06 methematics wrote: warp gates have a cooldown too, im not sure why everyone says " well you can warp in 5 ht and i have to walk my ghost across", this all depends on where your fighting. also you can build more then 1 ghost at a time.
Secondly the best thing agianst ht is battlecruiser (with yahmato). sorry it takes t3 to beat t3, ghost are kinda 50/50 vs ht where the entire battle/game depends on micro. but once you get some bc its over. Im not sure why everyone thinks that they should win when their out teched. theres a great qxc game that shows bc>ht a few post back.
Oh ya, that's viable. What with the 300/200 cost, slow, flying, 2 yamatos at MAX (I think) for an easily 8+ HT army. Not the BEST counter, definitely a big target to at least fly in and pick the rest off.
Leaves your ground army so lacking and light, if you mismicro those zeals take a LOOOONNNNNGGGGG time to kill with a few BCs
On December 14 2010 07:00 Endbringer wrote: I am not complaining about a turtling protoss, I would just like to win the game at some point. That means after I kill his army I have to attack him. Hopefully he has a pylon next to his expo/base...
I have not tried cloaking a ghost or two in between his army and his warp in point. I will try that although I am doubtfull about my ability to win the big fight without those two ghosts. I don't often just have them lying around playing peanuckle Still it is an idea and that's what this thread is for!
Edit- Yay 1.5x the mineral income! That's awesome late game! I am always so mineral starved. Thank god I can build a million marines that all die to storm or a bunch of hellions that actually spontaneously combust in front of a late game army. Mules have nothing to do with this discussion, try reading.
By the time the big fight arrives, I usually have around 4-5 Ghosts. From my experience (only about 100 TvPs, I admit), 2-3 Ghosts mixed into your big army in front is usually enough unless your opponent is a god with Feedback. You want to target HTs that are near the front, then Sentries if they're grouped up, and finally Stalker/Immortals, and try to fire your EMPs that are not aimed at casters slightly after the first volley, so they can't just turn around and run until shields regen.
Alternatively, if you feel you cannot spare the 2 Ghosts, if you can spare 1-2 Dropships of Marauders that can also work, as if you drop into his main as soon as the fight happens (drop the Marauders at the edge of his base with a hotkey of the Dropship and the Marauders, stim the Marauders, then just A-Move on your minimap to the opposite side of the base). In most cases, your opponent will be forced to decide if he wants his Warpgate cycle to be for HTs, or to warp in Zealots to stop your Marauders from trashing his base. This can also indirectly prevent the next wave of HTs, at least a few of them.
Always try to drop a different location/expansion each time you do this, as he'll likely wise up and leave 3-4 Stalkers at your old drop site.
Since Protoss usually does not go air, I try to keep a Dropship or two just hovering outside his bases. If you have the same economy, missing 4 Marauders or 2 Ghosts will not win or lose you a fight, and after you do the drop(s) you don't have to micro, while he is distracted during the more critical moments of the fight, since it's already started. Protoss love big battles but lose at small ones, and since you can constantly send a stream of units while he has bursts of units every 20 seconds or so, if you make him mess up his initial group of warp-ins (ie. commit too many Zealots to fight your Marauder drop), you suddenly have the advantage.
doesnt matter if u manage to emp most of his HTs he just needs 3-4 good storms to rape food capped bio army, also keep in mind that hts are behind P army so to reach them you need to have your ghosts infront exposed to his army. (colo, chargelots etc)
EMP is range 10 while Psionic Storm is range 9, so in order for his HTs to get in range to nuke your army, they have to expose themselves to your Ghosts. Try to aim your EMPs so that the edge of the explosion clips the HTs as they move forward to extend your range slightly further, and you can catch most of the HTs as well as his main army. You will need to fire off your EMPs early in the fight since you cannot stutter step with Ghosts anyway, so do not worry too much if your Ghosts die in the encounter. Try to hit his Templars, if not, EMP his Sentries, and if not, his grouped up Zealots before they charge. Yes, Zealots. This next part is still a hypothesis, since I just tested a few games against a diamond Protoss friend, and don't have a large sample size yet.
You're going mostly Marauders (just general assumption), and you are constantly falling back to dodge Storms/Chargelots. This means that even if you deplete all the shields off his Stalkers, your unit AI will still be targeting his Zealots. On the other hand, if his Zealots die quickly, your Stim'd Marauders can waste Stalkers, even with their shields still up. Without Zealots to push your lines back, you can get closer to him, and that even makes Storms difficult to drop.
Just be sure you have something that's distracting his next warpgate cycle (like a drop), or shutting down his next wave of Templars (like a stray Ghost). Terran has to outmaneuver Protoss lategame, a huge brawl is what Protoss is good at.
On December 14 2010 08:06 methematics wrote: warp gates have a cooldown too, im not sure why everyone says " well you can warp in 5 ht and i have to walk my ghost across", this all depends on where your fighting. also you can build more then 1 ghost at a time.
Secondly the best thing agianst ht is battlecruiser (with yahmato). sorry it takes t3 to beat t3, ghost are kinda 50/50 vs ht where the entire battle/game depends on micro. but once you get some bc its over. Im not sure why everyone thinks that they should win when their out teched. theres a great qxc game that shows bc>ht a few post back.
you cant warp in front of your production queue unlike other races who need to wait, thats a huge difference.
/e im out of here too much of P trolls invaded this topic theres no use to argue with them.
On December 14 2010 07:01 iAmJeffReY wrote: For one cycle of marines/marauder/medic, I get I'll say 3-4 maras, 1 ghost, 4-8 marines x 2 if I include 2 medics. Over a minute of build. They get like 8 HTs, 8 zeals, 1 collsai, 2 stalkers, 1-2 sentry in instant warp lol.r.
That my mara, 1 ghost, 4-8 marines would be x2, so 4-8 maras, 8-16 marines, 2 ghosts (if I wait longer) and 2 medivacs, in that time, warp cycle can be either chronoed, or even still the cycle speed is faster than building a marine, which is 30 seconds. So I'm implying, with real game experience not just theorycraft, that if you don't decimate their army, and land an EMP on their warping in HTs, you will not win. The speed protoss rebuild their army is double that of a terran with chrono boost.
Sure, mules are nice. Use a few DTs to harass, and we can't use mules because we have to save scans for DT run bys.
Finally, I'm surprised at the amount of terrans complaining about protoss being impossible to counterattack after winning a major engagement. What happened to PFs and mass-repair? As a 'toss player, I find that supremely annoying to deal with, and it often stops my advance cold after I win a big fight. Is this not viable at higher levels, or am I missing something?
Well, storm has a range of 9. If i upgrade it, my IMMOBILE PF has a range of 7. They can just storm my workers, meaning I'm shit out of macro luck. Even with mass repair, storm eats the SCVs up and the zealots didn't murder the PF too fast to even repair.
All protoss has to do is trade, trade, trade, and trade and you win. That's simple as that. I fool around on my friends account either high or drunk, it's just now 2k, and I'm 2.5k. I had to actually turn my gameplay on vs a 2200 freakin noobie toss, because he could warp in HTs and zeals and rape up my army. He was decent, at best. Again, it was jungle basin, and he did a DT warp -> HT + secure 3rd switch, and I was down since.
TL;DR
Toss have too many options, what with warp prisms *SO UNDERUSED*. Warp in 2 HT right by that PF, storm, and carry them on away. Both safe, and both alive.
Warp in HTs. Upgrades that scale SO incredibly well. Warp in storm ready HTs Easy chrono boost out 2 collsai when I switch to mass marines (due to time ghosts take to build)
I am complaining. I won't say it's at all imbalanced, because early game I can control a lot of the game in open fields, or if I money shot EMP a sentry'ed ramp.
You recharge armies too fast for us to deal with late game.
On December 14 2010 08:06 methematics wrote: warp gates have a cooldown too, im not sure why everyone says " well you can warp in 5 ht and i have to walk my ghost across", this all depends on where your fighting. also you can build more then 1 ghost at a time.
Secondly the best thing agianst ht is battlecruiser (with yahmato). sorry it takes t3 to beat t3, ghost are kinda 50/50 vs ht where the entire battle/game depends on micro. but once you get some bc its over. Im not sure why everyone thinks that they should win when their out teched. theres a great qxc game that shows bc>ht a few post back.
Oh ya, that's viable. What with the 300/200 cost, slow, flying, 2 yamatos at MAX (I think) for an easily 8+ HT army. Not the BEST counter, definitely a big target to at least fly in and pick the rest off.
Leaves your ground army so lacking and light, if you mismicro those zeals take a LOOOONNNNNGGGGG time to kill with a few BCs
so this is a T saying P is imba because of drops? Also please watch the replay it was a great game (~50 mins hows that for late game tvp)
When did I say they were imba because of drops? Just an easier, more mobile 'proxy pylon' to use that isn't use. They can warp and walk in JUST as easily.
Surviving isn't as hard as winning. You can turtle up and survive. I lost a 47 minute TvP yesterday, and a 37 minuter the day before. If you keep up with tech switches, zealot count, and HTs, you can play long enough to hopefully force a mistake or another PF.
It's enjoyable seeing 'tards pick one sentence out of a whole post to troll on.
I think the hard part on TvP is when to tech and how to tech. For example, if you make a 2 rax select expand, or a 1 rax FE. Do you make 1/2/3/4/+ more rax or do you start taking more gas and teching to starport directly. It really takes alot of practice to see what you can get away with. Scouting protoss is pretty hard when they get their first few stalkers out (hiding tech).
On December 14 2010 08:30 iAmJeffReY wrote: When did I say they were imba because of drops? Just an easier, more mobile 'proxy pylon' to use that isn't use. They can warp and walk in JUST as easily.
Surviving isn't as hard as winning. You can turtle up and survive. I lost a 47 minute TvP yesterday, and a 37 minuter the day before. If you keep up with tech switches, zealot count, and HTs, you can play long enough to hopefully force a mistake or another PF.
It's enjoyable seeing 'tards pick one sentence out of a whole post to troll on.
i singled out the wp statement because both sides have increased mobility with air transports, and both have valuable abilities, perhaps it was unwarrented to accuse you of screaming imba.
im serious with the bc though, its not that unbelievable. look 400min 300 gas is the 100+ the cost of a colo, and both require a special building and are top tier. most p get colo every game. both colo and bc are vulnerable to sniping in small numbers and become godly in large numbers. The benefit to BC vs a ht build is its typically zealot ht which is weak to air, the more stalkers force less ht zealot. once you have 4-5 BC it takes a lot of stalkers to take them down, and if u you maruader in there its pretty even. look tlo beat a zealot templar build with bc, as well as qxc. Also if you open banshee your 1 building away from producing BC, or even if you have medivac for bio, viking for colo, or raven for stalker; your still 1 building away which isnt that unreasonable
look strom is a powerful aoe, for probe harrass terran have blue flame hellion which is similar. for the army you need BC/Thor to deal with it. It seems to me that most of you guys dont want to part from your familiar bio builds, or dont wanna adapt. But storm is designed to counter bio, so i think this attitude (if true) is unwarranted.
Battlecruisers cost 400 minerals and 300 gas, not 300 minerals and 200 gas. Massive difference.
Also, yamato cannon is a facepalm-worthy "answer" to HTs. If you are using spells to deal with templar then both Snipe and EMP are far more resource-efficient and easier to execute (cloak + faster movement speed).
On December 14 2010 08:30 iAmJeffReY wrote: When did I say they were imba because of drops? Just an easier, more mobile 'proxy pylon' to use that isn't use. They can warp and walk in JUST as easily.
Surviving isn't as hard as winning. You can turtle up and survive. I lost a 47 minute TvP yesterday, and a 37 minuter the day before. If you keep up with tech switches, zealot count, and HTs, you can play long enough to hopefully force a mistake or another PF.
It's enjoyable seeing 'tards pick one sentence out of a whole post to troll on.
i singled out the wp statement because both sides have increased mobility with air transports, and both have valuable abilities, perhaps it was unwarrented to accuse you of screaming imba.
im serious with the bc though, its not that unbelievable. look 400min 300 gas is the 100+ the cost of a colo, and both require a special building and are top tier. most p get colo every game. both colo and bc are vulnerable to sniping in small numbers and become godly in large numbers. The benefit to BC vs a ht build is its typically zealot ht which is weak to air, the more stalkers force less ht zealot. once you have 4-5 BC it takes a lot of stalkers to take them down, and if u you maruader in there its pretty even. look tlo beat a zealot templar build with bc, as well as qxc. Also if you open banshee your 1 building away from producing BC, or even if you have medivac for bio, viking for colo, or raven for stalker; your still 1 building away which isnt that unreasonable
look strom is a powerful aoe, for probe harrass terran have blue flame hellion which is similar. for the army you need BC/Thor to deal with it. It seems to me that most of you guys dont want to part from your familiar bio builds, or dont wanna adapt. But storm is designed to counter bio, so i think this attitude (if true) is unwarranted.
Can you link those replays? Are they pre-bc nerf? From my experience and everything I have seen bc's are terrible after the nerf. Stalkers rape them and they are slow as shit and really slow to produce. Its not like bw where 5-10 of them own everything. 5 bc's die to fast to justify slowing your armies movement so drastically.
On December 14 2010 09:13 Pewt wrote: A public service announcement:
Battlecruisers cost 400 minerals and 300 gas, not 300 minerals and 200 gas. Massive difference.
Also, yamato cannon is a facepalm-worthy "answer" to HTs. If you are using spells to deal with templar then both Snipe and EMP are far more resource-efficient and easier to execute (cloak + faster movement speed).
yamato is do drain mana to prevent feedback, and i used iamjefferys numbers on the BC resources (who is presumably terran) since i mainly play p and z. yamatoing the ht is unnecessary, but lowering the energy that can be feedback is advantageous.
reading this thread seriously hurts my eyes so many odd numbers and odd statements i think it would be better if people would post replays to back up their stories imo terran has an advantage over protoss early game and early game comes before late game so if you abuse this...
If you abuse this you win early. Yay! What if the protoss somehow holds until late game? Then what do you do? We should make a thread about it! Oh wait we did and its this one...
Pre-nerf bc's were great against protoss and you saw them all the time. Post nerf you never see them because they are not worth their cost. I would guess the qxc game is also pre-nerf.
its fine if you make a thread about it, but hardly anyone here posts replays to back up their statements, so this thread looks more like pointless whining.
~2300 Terran I've been having reasonable success defeating P with 4 starport banshee into BC tech switch(the build opens marines + siege tank expand into 4 port once you have the 4 gas up).
It's pretty nice because 4 port banshee induces the P to go phoenix and storm, neither of which are particularly good vs. BC. Even stalkers aren't a great counter cost wise although they do suffice if you don't have any PDD. I've never needed to get yamato but it might be necessary with the new patch to hit void rays.
Alternatively iechoic mentioned a BC/Thor/Marine transition from his banshee build which I use less because I don't find the thor very useful and would rather use the factory for tanks. Maybe both builds are just stupid at master/grandmaster levels but it throws off enough P at my level that i'm gonna keep using it. Once I hit BC's I feel like the end game unit composition just continually shifts. They counter with void/stalker, i switch to viking/marauder or MMM, they switch to collosi, I go back to BC, etc, etc
I haven't had issues with mobility. I understand its a concern to many people here but I feel strongest when immobile anyway ie, when P attacks into my defense, or when I get into siege range of a defensible point or expansion. Maybe some P will run chargelots all over the map such that I can't defend valuable expansions but typically they are too busy freaking out about the bc's/bio army or too afraid of planetary fortresses.
On December 14 2010 10:11 cskalias.pbe wrote: ~2300 Terran I've been having reasonable success defeating P with 4 starport banshee into BC tech switch. BC gets eaten alive by mass stalker(void rays and phoenix getting buffed though so not sure how long this is going to last). The bright side is, stalkers have a neat counter in point defense drone, and they have to recognize that they need those stalkers in time to protect whatever weak expand or position i'm trying to take.
It's pretty nice because 4 port banshee induces the P to go phoenix and storm, neither of which are particularly good vs. BC. Even stalkers aren't a great counter cost wise. I've never needed to get yamato but it might be necessary with the new patch to hit void rays.
Alternatively iechoic mentioned a BC/Thor/Marine transition from his banshee build which I use less because I don't find the thor very useful and would rather use the factory for tanks. Maybe both builds are just stupid at master/grandmaster levels but it throws off enough P at my level that i'm gonna keep using it.
I haven't had issues with mobility. I understand its a concern to many people here but I feel strongest when immobile anyway ie, when P attacks into my defense, or when I get into siege range of a defensible point or expansion. Maybe some P will run chargelots all over the map such that I can't defend valuable expansions but typically they are too busy freaking out about the bc's/bio army or too afraid of planetary fortresses.
I was to lazy to read the whole thread, but in my opinion the reason why the most terrans have problems in the lategame against toss is, they stay to long on the bio-army. To have a chance versus storm you need lots of units with much HP for example Thors\Tanks. And you need obvious more then 3-4 Ghosts, if you have at least so many ghosts as your opponent has Templars you should do fine. And what I really don't understand is why cloak isn't researched instantly. In the games I watched Dreamhack, GSL, GO4sc2 etc. the caster always says they need a lucky emp that hits most of the templar etc. But you doesn't need luck if you can easily emp the whole army of the Toss.
So Id like to go ahead and Say that vs protoss ive been somewhat successful if i scout and see the templar archives and snipe it then move in with my big bioball with ghosts landing nice emps. If this goes successful i almost always win the game if it fails then the game is drawn out longer and i have to tech switch to more of a Ghost/Thor/Tank/BC army cause bio cannot handle Storm plain and simple.
On December 14 2010 10:20 4of8 wrote: I was to lazy to read the whole thread, but in my opinion the reason why the most terrans have problems in the lategame against toss is, they stay to long on the bio-army. To have a chance versus storm you need lots of units with much HP for example Thors\Tanks. And you need obvious more then 3-4 Ghosts, if you have at least so many ghosts as your opponent has Templars you should do fine. And what I really don't understand is why cloak isn't researched instantly. In the games I watched Dreamhack, GSL, GO4sc2 etc. the caster always says they need a lucky emp that hits most of the templar etc. But you doesn't need luck if you can easily emp the whole army of the Toss.
I think most of the commentators are just trying to build up tension, as there were quite a few instances in the Dreamhack and the Chinese coverage of GSL in which the commentators were making the fights sound a lot less one-sided as they end up (like going "oh man, does he have enough to hold off the Protoss attack?!" when the Terran has 8 yellow-life Marauders just pounding the remaining 6 Stalkers).
But I agree that people should throw more Ghosts into the mix. EMP lets you fight his army at almost half health, and can stop Storms if you react faster. That and run some Ghosts or Hellions or anything behind his army to pick off his new batch of HTs, and drop at the same time and you're set.
It sounds like a lot, but when you play macro intensive games you do need a high APM, since you're trying to play a game with a lot of production and units, because I have this suspicion quite a few people who begrudge Warpgates just forget their production during the middle of a big battle.
emp should be 50 mana, 75 is way too much for how hit or miss it is, this game is actually such a dissapointment, who wants to play an rts game that you can't win past 15 minutes into a game using one race, blizzard ruined the terran race
spider mines with vision might actually save the terran race, it improves their lack of mobility and grants them vision they drastically lack. zerg creep tumours granting vision and observers constantly knowing where your army is just too damn good compared to what terran has.
On December 14 2010 13:34 darth_hater wrote: spider mines with vision might actually save the terran race, it improves their lack of mobility and grants them vision they drastically lack. zerg creep tumours granting vision and observers constantly knowing where your army is just too damn good compared to what terran has.
So what your saying is that observers, which arent too hard to spot, and creep tumors, which need to be managed, blow towers and scan out of the water?
On December 14 2010 13:41 GinDo wrote: By far i have to say the best L8 terran composition is Marine Hellion BC.
The problem is getting to BCs.
Edit: Now that i think about it this comp dies to storm.
You kind of fucked up the order there, then. Maybe before contributing you should think about the value of your contribution before sending it off into the world?
On December 14 2010 13:41 GinDo wrote: By far i have to say the best L8 terran composition is Marine Hellion BC.
The problem is getting to BCs.
Edit: Now that i think about it this comp dies to storm.
You kind of fucked up the order there, then. Maybe before contributing you should think about the value of your contribution before sending it off into the world?
Maybe before contributing you should think about the value of your contribution before sending it off into the world?
Any how back on topic(Which you strayed from)
On December 14 2010 13:34 darth_hater wrote: spider mines with vision might actually save the terran race, it improves their lack of mobility and grants them vision they drastically lack. zerg creep tumours granting vision and observers constantly knowing where your army is just too damn good compared to what terran has.
Although this will help with mech. Over all it won't hel the current state of the game in that Mech still lacks strong Anti Air and Bio doesn't benefit from Mines in that their always running around with the bio. Plus mine dragging with chargelots would tear up that bio ball.
I think bio is overused in Terran lategame (marines specifically). Marauders, ghosts, and Vikings with minimal tank support is always good. If the toss skips robo and stargate you can skip the Vikings and get out more tanks, plus a couple thors to stop forcefields.
I think mech play can be very strong, particularly against HT builds. As a mineral dump you can focus on Hellions and treat them like Brood War vultures; snipe HTs, harrass, scout, and kill zealots. Tanks are your damage dealers, and you have some spare Vikings/thors for AA. In BW you'd get a science vessel for EMP and detection, now you'd have to get a ghost and raven but the only difference is the replacing of the science facility with ghost academy and one extra unit is required; one rax is enough for ghosts IMO.
On December 14 2010 04:45 statikg wrote: I don't think tech switching is the problem, I'm not even sure that HTs are the problem although I definitely think its ridiculous that you can win a battle with like 20 (albeit injured) units left, move in to take out the expansion, and like 3 zealots and 2 HTs just warped in kill your entire army.
The problem IMO is forcefield. Protoss have gotten better and better at using this spell, and now with examples like MC v Jinro for all the protoss to copy its really getting out of hand, and if you havn't seen evidence of this your not playing at a high level.
Forcefield allows a protoss to defend and tech easily against aggression. Some protoss on this thread say, well we have to be able to forcefield well so its fair...but really, how hard is it to put a forcefield in the middle of your ramp? This puts them at an advantage if you try to punish them for teching because you are now behind on vikings when they get one immortal they are able to easily take their expansion as you are forced to reduce pressure to expand since you can't get up the ramp.
So just play more reactively you say? Well, Forcefield also allows the protoss to really punish any similar attempt at a quick expansion, EVEN if you build bunkers because thanks again to MC, now all the protoss know how to really make bunkers ineffective and defending a position with less or equal units basically impossible. I basically never feel safe to 1rax FE anymore whereas protoss get away with a 1gateway FE all the time no problem.
In the field forcefield just makes it so easy for a gateway army to crush a bioball even without things they used to need like zealot charge. Granted you have to be competent at trapping half or more of the bio army against your zealots, but it seems most protoss can do this these days and when this happens it is OVER. So now the protoss say, oh well you just need ghosts to emp those sentries! But good protoss will split up their sentries and a ghost is a serious investment early in the game usually good for only one emp, this really screws you over if the protoss goes for fast collosus instead of sentry heavy as your not going to have enough vikings to deal with it. Also he advantage of an early emp used to be taking out a huge chunk of the protoss hp but now we have to use it on the sentries instead just so we can kite zealots, protoss will simply lose a few zealots and disengage (remember this is with no sentry splitting and a good emp).
Anyway this matchup is seriously broken and my worst by far at 2400+, I hate that the only strategy I can employ is a 1base all in with mass air/ground and its obvious from the number of TvP help threads popping up from 23-400+ diamond players that there is something wrong. Its telling that most of the PvT help threads are mostly from low diamond and lower leagues where early bio pressure is still a problem because those protoss are not proficient with forcefield. The funny thing is, there are always plenty of answers to these protoss problems from more experienced protoss players, but the only answer to the T problems come from platinum league players in their infinite wisdom or P players, most other T players just say, well you have to outplay them or just do the timing attack.
Protoss typically respond that T do manage to win alot of the time, but if you took away the 1base thor/poltesque timing attacks, I guarantee the win ratio becomes ridiculous P favored. This is not balance.
Before you respond with L2P. You might notice that pre roach buff T used to all also say that Z just needed to L2P which I think was at to some degree partially correct, the meta game did evolve, but obviously the roach buff also helped deal with some of the major issues at the time such as mass reapers and early hellion harass which I think drastically effected the matchup more then you might imagine.
Thats a really good post with good points. I think you're probably exaggerating it a bit, but there is probably a lot of truth there.
Questions:
In the field forcefield just makes it so easy for a gateway army to crush a bioball even without things they used to need like zealot charge. Granted you have to be competent at trapping half or more of the bio army against your zealots
Honestly, I've never seen this occur at anywhere near cost equality without colo or templar. Do you have links to this - because I think you're exaggerating. Maybe I'm too weak a player but bioball is so incredibly effective at dealing with gateway.
So now the protoss say, oh well you just need ghosts to emp those sentries! But good protoss will split up their sentries and a ghost is a serious investment early in the game usually good for only one emp, this really screws you over if the protoss goes for fast collosus instead of sentry heavy as your not going to have enough vikings to deal with it. Also he advantage of an early emp used to be taking out a huge chunk of the protoss hp but now we have to use it on the sentries instead just so we can kite zealots, protoss will simply lose a few zealots and disengage (remember this is with no sentry splitting and a good emp).
Do you think its possible that as toss have gotten better with FF - terran needs to get better with EMP? You say that FF usage has just recently hit a sort of tipping point - do you think that terrans have really mastered the use of ghosts both early and late - or is that still in the works?
Sorry to answer someone else's questions, but just wanted to throw in my 2 cents.
I have personally been crushed by Gateway armies that use FF well. I was 3 Rax-ing and they were 3 Gating, so it's not that I got out-massed, but for example, in Lost Temple, FF just makes it impossible for Terran to successfully fight anywhere but in the center. If I fight at the choke just past my natural, they can cut my army with ~4 FFs, and then just shoot things down with Stalkers. If I engage AT my natural, they can stop reinforcements with 1 FF on the ramp, and a wall of 2-3 starting from the cliff edge close to my ramp will force my army to run around to a new concave. If I fight anywhere but exactly the middle, they can FF along the walls that shield the Xel'Naga Towers to restrict army movement, and if I fight on the Gold expansion area I am beyond screwed.
As to the EMP- I don't think it's that reasonable a counter for 3 reasons:
1. Ghosts are really expensive. Having them to counter Sentries is just not economically viable, especially since you have to keep up with your Marauder count to fight Stalkers, since for the price of one Ghost Academy and one Ghost, you can get 3 extra Sentries, and if those Sentries are not currently locking lips my one Ghost cannot stop all 3.
2. Ghosts need to get their EMPs off before the fight begins, Protoss does not. EMP on a spent Sentry or HT is pointless, so my Ghosts must get into position faster. Cloaking helps, but that's another 150/150, and one forward scouting Observer and one Observer with the main army will spot the Ghosts very quickly (and since Ravens are not common at all, I'd have to blow an EMP or Scan on the Observer).
3. Feedback outranges EMP. For a Ghost to EMP he MUST have 100 energy (oh, right, to whoever said that Ghosts can EMP out the Rax, I think you're wrong), which means that any time he is spotted a HT can just one-shot him and still have energy leftover for Storm. Since Ghosts generally try to get their EMPs before a fight starts (and are pretty easy to spot due to having energy bars), they're also very vulnerable to the units they're supposed to counter.
ghosts are expensive? as so many of you stated, terran has no minerals problems mid/lategame. so 150 is the same as for a HT. to get to ghosts, you have to spend 75 gas (100/50 ghost academy, 50/25 techlab) so lets add 150 gas for the ghost and we are at 225 gas. as a sentry costs 100 gas, there could be only 2 sentries. but why do you even compare the terrans costs with the protoss expenses?
EMP costs only 75 energy so the statement that a ghost can use emp (with his 100/100 upgrade) once he leaves the baracks, is correct.
there are some other points that make me wonder: first of all the protoss has to get those casters (HT/Sentry) as well as his bulk of the army (zealots/stalker). so why shouldnt terran be forced to spend the same amount of gas into ghosts to counter HTs as the protoss had to spent? of course you cant expect to counter a protoss with 10 HTs with 2 ghosts (at least the odds against a medium skilled toss are slim). in general a protoss seems to have to spend so much more gas in units than a terran (considering T1... marines/marauder vs stalker/zealots/sentries).
somewhere in here was stated that "if you go heavy rax, you wont have the gas to support ghosts early on since you get your 2nd gas at 5 min or later" oh really? why not adapt and get the gas earlier? o_O also i think the ghost is greatly unerrated. is has the exact same dmg stats as the marauder has... just against light. ok, he has much higher gas cost but in exchangce you get some great spells and a unit that gets no extra dmg (except against archon).
as for the warp in mechanics: it really seems that there are many (even high ranked) terran players that have some serious misconceptions about it. maybe to you guys it seems like the protoss is constantly warpin in and always at the right time and so on. you wont notice if he CANT warp in at the right time and at the right place. as for the macro: that isnt really that different from your rax. of course there are key differences but the basic macro and upkeep is the same. sorry, if i explain that too simple but it seems that many ppl havent really understood that: if you warp in a unit, it takes 5 seconds to arrive. a cooldown is triggered at the warpgate depending on unit type. after the CD wears off, the warpgate lied IDLE! now there are some consequences:
1. each warpgate has a certain unit throuput (means units per time) (same as most other producing structures like barracks, robo and so on). 2. since there is no queuing, the effective unit throuput decreases the longer the warpgate stays idle.
why am i telling this? the point i want to make is that your economy always can only support so many warpgates (if ideally used). the more gates i build, the more "forgiving" this mechanic becomes (means the less it matterst if they lie idle too long, because you can simply use the additional gates to use the accumulated recources). so its still like every other unit producing structure! if you build 2 rax on 3 bases, resources will stockpile. if you build 8 rax on one base, you wasted a lot of resources to build those which could have been units instead.
so now there is finally my point: if a protoss can always warp in or has too many gates his macro is bad (ideally... i know... late game gates will be added as reaching 200/200. so take this point mostly for early/mid game). so he spent resouces that could have been units. isnt it the same like forcing toss to spend resources on canons?
why i wanted to write all that is because several "high level" terrans stated that warp in would be superior to conventional building. but thats not true. its different but it also has its drawbacks.
+ due to proxy pylon possibly short distances to reinforce army + very reactive because of the short "creating process" - lower efficiency in the case of unit throughput because there is no queuing and gates stand idle (no one keeps them on CD ALL game long, right?) - you have to change screen to rebuild (unless you are fighting with a pylon in range)
if both player macro on a high level, the unit throughput of the unit producing structures should always about match the income. therefore it is wrong to say that protoss can reinforce FASTER (ignore chronoboost). it just looks that way because the terran units have to walk across the map and wont spawn at once ^^
i guess the most terrans who have this misconception have lost a few times to good warp in timings/places. as said above you wont notice if you win because of bad CD timings!
i am terribly sorry that this post became so long and basic. i am sure most of you knew all that. and if i made some mistakes feel free to correct. maybe one or another player will learn a bit :<
as for the HT warp in there have been said many things and suggestions. like that it is a huge investment to warp in HTs everywhere. people are talking here like protoss has unlimited warpgates and unlimited gas and all HTs have unlimited energy. i will admit that the lategame is in favor of protoss but maybe some of you should really reexamine some facts. if the protoss is able to sustain heavy HT warp in... maybe he just macroed better? how many times did you bash them for not being able to get HTs there in time? we always focus on our nerdrage and not our successes
one good point was that terran has to stay on MMM for too long. "so what do you expect? templar rape your t1 army" :< that is true but i have no answer for alternatives. well, some actually were mentioned but i dont know ^^ i think as it is today (this patch), terran has to rely on their high flexibility regarding movement/drop/harass. as we can see in games of qxc and jinro. spread the protoss out.,.. outplay him by being everywhere (so it looks like at least when i watch qxc play ). i admit, it is way harder to reach this high skill level (being able to multitask to that degree) that it is to get some good FF placements or storms. still i think this matchup has some room for development. for example the usage of ghosts.
sorry again for that awfully long post ^^ hope it wasnt that boring and some of you share my opinion!
i think the real problem is that the protoss late game just requires very little micro, spamming storm is easy as hell where as terran has to do much more. thus a lower or even skilled protoss player will win against a terran everytime.
also increasing nexus shields and health owns late game drops, by the time u could have previously sniped a nexus now u just do no damage, they need to revert back to the original hp
[B]On December 14 2010 08:06 methematics wrote:[/] Secondly the best thing agianst ht is battlecruiser (with yahmato). sorry it takes t3 to beat t3, ghost are kinda 50/50 vs ht where the entire battle/game depends on micro. but once you get some bc its over. Im not sure why everyone thinks that they should win when their out teched. theres a great qxc game that shows bc>ht a few post back.
sorry, but bc does not counter a good protoss. feedback, and bcs are too slow to dodge storms (80 dmg is still 80 dmg) + they morph into archons which arent bad against bcs, really. regardless of this though, i bet that replay was pre-bc nerf (when they were actually worth a damn) and any toss that gives you enough freedom to make the most expensive unit in the terran repertoire en masse (that also takes like 60sec to build iirc, not to mention 6 food) didnt punish you well enough.
On December 14 2010 14:59 darth_hater wrote: i think the real problem is that the protoss late game just requires very little micro, spamming storm is easy as hell where as terran has to do much more. thus a lower or even skilled protoss player will win against a terran everytime.
actually both thors and bcs are the epitome of 1a-units unless u use their sniping abilities...
imho these 2 units are underused in lategame tvp atm. i dont think that the future of the MU lies in tanks.
On December 14 2010 14:59 darth_hater wrote: i think the real problem is that the protoss late game just requires very little micro, spamming storm is easy as hell where as terran has to do much more. thus a lower or even skilled protoss player will win against a terran everytime.
actually both thors and bcs are the epitome of 1a-units unless u use their sniping abilities...
imho these 2 units are underused in lategame tvp atm. i dont think that the future of the MU lies in tanks.
BC's are "underused" because they are not good. Thors are ok, but they are really a slow unit looking for a job to fill. MMM does more dps and is more mobile than thors. The only thing the thor has going for it is that its basically immune to storm. Unfortunetly chargelots rape thors and a protoss late game has no shortage of those. Thors as they are right now, might be a decent thing to add to MMM, but they certainly do not replace it.
Once again we have Protoss players telling Terrans they are morons for not transitioning out of Bio without realizing that there is nothing to transition to! You can add thors to your bio, or tanks, but the core is still a large force of units which get raped by storm. Mech is not viable at high levels of play, as Jinro himself stated earlier. BC's are awful at their cost. I have noticed that both Zergs and Protoss often tell Terrans they need to transition out of bio without realizing that Terran doesn't have any other good comp.
You have to have bio as the core of your army or you lose. Any strategy for any race which rapes bio is super strong because even late game when toss has chargelots, HTs with amulets, and collosi T has to have bio. Our entire race is based around a T1 unit, the marine. Its not that the pro's are all stupid and just haven't experimented enough, you 1800 diamond protoss players aren't smarter than the Terran pro's. Their isn't a unit left to try. Until the game changes Terran goes Bio every matchup because Terran has no other effective unit comp in TvP.
I just hit a toss twice on ladder. All i can say is zealot rip to to shreads. HOLY SHIT.
if you put force field behind them on maps with narrow passages like xel naga caverns zealot absolutely tears through the terran army. All you need is few stalker 1-2 immortal at the back. If you are on 2 base (like early 2 base so they are not fully saturated yet) just spam like 4-5 sentry early and let them build up energy. It is so hard to emp all of them FF cast pretty fast
I can post replays if you guys want
EDIT: People say terran has timing window to exploit. Its not like protoss doesnt.. Yestoday i was playing Wolf and I went for a 1-1-1 build on Metalopolis close air spawns. All he did was make 1 warp prisim and did a WG push. There was no way for me to stop that.
On December 14 2010 04:45 statikg wrote: I don't think tech switching is the problem, I'm not even sure that HTs are the problem although I definitely think its ridiculous that you can win a battle with like 20 (albeit injured) units left, move in to take out the expansion, and like 3 zealots and 2 HTs just warped in kill your entire army.
The problem IMO is forcefield. Protoss have gotten better and better at using this spell, and now with examples like MC v Jinro for all the protoss to copy its really getting out of hand, and if you havn't seen evidence of this your not playing at a high level.
Forcefield allows a protoss to defend and tech easily against aggression. Some protoss on this thread say, well we have to be able to forcefield well so its fair...but really, how hard is it to put a forcefield in the middle of your ramp? This puts them at an advantage if you try to punish them for teching because you are now behind on vikings when they get one immortal they are able to easily take their expansion as you are forced to reduce pressure to expand since you can't get up the ramp.
So just play more reactively you say? Well, Forcefield also allows the protoss to really punish any similar attempt at a quick expansion, EVEN if you build bunkers because thanks again to MC, now all the protoss know how to really make bunkers ineffective and defending a position with less or equal units basically impossible. I basically never feel safe to 1rax FE anymore whereas protoss get away with a 1gateway FE all the time no problem.
In the field forcefield just makes it so easy for a gateway army to crush a bioball even without things they used to need like zealot charge. Granted you have to be competent at trapping half or more of the bio army against your zealots, but it seems most protoss can do this these days and when this happens it is OVER. So now the protoss say, oh well you just need ghosts to emp those sentries! But good protoss will split up their sentries and a ghost is a serious investment early in the game usually good for only one emp, this really screws you over if the protoss goes for fast collosus instead of sentry heavy as your not going to have enough vikings to deal with it. Also he advantage of an early emp used to be taking out a huge chunk of the protoss hp but now we have to use it on the sentries instead just so we can kite zealots, protoss will simply lose a few zealots and disengage (remember this is with no sentry splitting and a good emp).
Anyway this matchup is seriously broken and my worst by far at 2400+, I hate that the only strategy I can employ is a 1base all in with mass air/ground and its obvious from the number of TvP help threads popping up from 23-400+ diamond players that there is something wrong. Its telling that most of the PvT help threads are mostly from low diamond and lower leagues where early bio pressure is still a problem because those protoss are not proficient with forcefield. The funny thing is, there are always plenty of answers to these protoss problems from more experienced protoss players, but the only answer to the T problems come from platinum league players in their infinite wisdom or P players, most other T players just say, well you have to outplay them or just do the timing attack.
Protoss typically respond that T do manage to win alot of the time, but if you took away the 1base thor/poltesque timing attacks, I guarantee the win ratio becomes ridiculous P favored. This is not balance.
Before you respond with L2P. You might notice that pre roach buff T used to all also say that Z just needed to L2P which I think was at to some degree partially correct, the meta game did evolve, but obviously the roach buff also helped deal with some of the major issues at the time such as mass reapers and early hellion harass which I think drastically effected the matchup more then you might imagine.
Thats a really good post with good points. I think you're probably exaggerating it a bit, but there is probably a lot of truth there.
Questions:
In the field forcefield just makes it so easy for a gateway army to crush a bioball even without things they used to need like zealot charge. Granted you have to be competent at trapping half or more of the bio army against your zealots
Honestly, I've never seen this occur at anywhere near cost equality without colo or templar. Do you have links to this - because I think you're exaggerating. Maybe I'm too weak a player but bioball is so incredibly effective at dealing with gateway.
So now the protoss say, oh well you just need ghosts to emp those sentries! But good protoss will split up their sentries and a ghost is a serious investment early in the game usually good for only one emp, this really screws you over if the protoss goes for fast collosus instead of sentry heavy as your not going to have enough vikings to deal with it. Also he advantage of an early emp used to be taking out a huge chunk of the protoss hp but now we have to use it on the sentries instead just so we can kite zealots, protoss will simply lose a few zealots and disengage (remember this is with no sentry splitting and a good emp).
Do you think its possible that as toss have gotten better with FF - terran needs to get better with EMP? You say that FF usage has just recently hit a sort of tipping point - do you think that terrans have really mastered the use of ghosts both early and late - or is that still in the works?
Sorry to answer someone else's questions, but just wanted to throw in my 2 cents.
I have personally been crushed by Gateway armies that use FF well. I was 3 Rax-ing and they were 3 Gating, so it's not that I got out-massed, but for example, in Lost Temple, FF just makes it impossible for Terran to successfully fight anywhere but in the center. If I fight at the choke just past my natural, they can cut my army with ~4 FFs, and then just shoot things down with Stalkers. If I engage AT my natural, they can stop reinforcements with 1 FF on the ramp, and a wall of 2-3 starting from the cliff edge close to my ramp will force my army to run around to a new concave. If I fight anywhere but exactly the middle, they can FF along the walls that shield the Xel'Naga Towers to restrict army movement, and if I fight on the Gold expansion area I am beyond screwed.
As to the EMP- I don't think it's that reasonable a counter for 3 reasons:
1. Ghosts are really expensive. Having them to counter Sentries is just not economically viable, especially since you have to keep up with your Marauder count to fight Stalkers, since for the price of one Ghost Academy and one Ghost, you can get 3 extra Sentries, and if those Sentries are not currently locking lips my one Ghost cannot stop all 3.
2. Ghosts need to get their EMPs off before the fight begins, Protoss does not. EMP on a spent Sentry or HT is pointless, so my Ghosts must get into position faster. Cloaking helps, but that's another 150/150, and one forward scouting Observer and one Observer with the main army will spot the Ghosts very quickly (and since Ravens are not common at all, I'd have to blow an EMP or Scan on the Observer).
3. Feedback outranges EMP. For a Ghost to EMP he MUST have 100 energy (oh, right, to whoever said that Ghosts can EMP out the Rax, I think you're wrong), which means that any time he is spotted a HT can just one-shot him and still have energy leftover for Storm. Since Ghosts generally try to get their EMPs before a fight starts (and are pretty easy to spot due to having energy bars), they're also very vulnerable to the units they're supposed to counter.
ghosts are expensive? as so many of you stated, terran has no minerals problems mid/lategame. so 150 is the same as for a HT. to get to ghosts, you have to spend 75 gas (100/50 ghost academy, 50/25 techlab) so lets add 150 gas for the ghost and we are at 225 gas. as a sentry costs 100 gas, there could be only 2 sentries. but why do you even compare the terrans costs with the protoss expenses?
EMP costs only 75 energy so the statement that a ghost can use emp (with his 100/100 upgrade) once he leaves the baracks, is correct.
there are some other points that make me wonder: first of all the protoss has to get those casters (HT/Sentry) as well as his bulk of the army (zealots/stalker). so why shouldnt terran be forced to spend the same amount of gas into ghosts to counter HTs as the protoss had to spent? of course you cant expect to counter a protoss with 10 HTs with 2 ghosts (at least the odds against a medium skilled toss are slim). in general a protoss seems to have to spend so much more gas in units than a terran (considering T1... marines/marauder vs stalker/zealots/sentries).
somewhere in here was stated that "if you go heavy rax, you wont have the gas to support ghosts early on since you get your 2nd gas at 5 min or later" oh really? why not adapt and get the gas earlier? o_O also i think the ghost is greatly unerrated. is has the exact same dmg stats as the marauder has... just against light. ok, he has much higher gas cost but in exchangce you get some great spells and a unit that gets no extra dmg (except against archon).
as for the warp in mechanics: it really seems that there are many (even high ranked) terran players that have some serious misconceptions about it. maybe to you guys it seems like the protoss is constantly warpin in and always at the right time and so on. you wont notice if he CANT warp in at the right time and at the right place. as for the macro: that isnt really that different from your rax. of course there are key differences but the basic macro and upkeep is the same. sorry, if i explain that too simple but it seems that many ppl havent really understood that: if you warp in a unit, it takes 5 seconds to arrive. a cooldown is triggered at the warpgate depending on unit type. after the CD wears off, the warpgate lied IDLE! now there are some consequences:
1. each warpgate has a certain unit throuput (means units per time) (same as most other producing structures like barracks, robo and so on). 2. since there is no queuing, the effective unit throuput decreases the longer the warpgate stays idle.
why am i telling this? the point i want to make is that your economy always can only support so many warpgates (if ideally used). the more gates i build, the more "forgiving" this mechanic becomes (means the less it matterst if they lie idle too long, because you can simply use the additional gates to use the accumulated recources). so its still like every other unit producing structure! if you build 2 rax on 3 bases, resources will stockpile. if you build 8 rax on one base, you wasted a lot of resources to build those which could have been units instead.
so now there is finally my point: if a protoss can always warp in or has too many gates his macro is bad (ideally... i know... late game gates will be added as reaching 200/200. so take this point mostly for early/mid game). so he spent resouces that could have been units. isnt it the same like forcing toss to spend resources on canons?
why i wanted to write all that is because several "high level" terrans stated that warp in would be superior to conventional building. but thats not true. its different but it also has its drawbacks.
+ due to proxy pylon possibly short distances to reinforce army + very reactive because of the short "creating process" - lower efficiency in the case of unit throughput because there is no queuing and gates stand idle (no one keeps them on CD ALL game long, right?) - you have to change screen to rebuild (unless you are fighting with a pylon in range)
if both player macro on a high level, the unit throughput of the unit producing structures should always about match the income. therefore it is wrong to say that protoss can reinforce FASTER (ignore chronoboost). it just looks that way because the terran units have to walk across the map and wont spawn at once ^^
i guess the most terrans who have this misconception have lost a few times to good warp in timings/places. as said above you wont notice if you win because of bad CD timings!
i am terribly sorry that this post became so long and basic. i am sure most of you knew all that. and if i made some mistakes feel free to correct. maybe one or another player will learn a bit :<
as for the HT warp in there have been said many things and suggestions. like that it is a huge investment to warp in HTs everywhere. people are talking here like protoss has unlimited warpgates and unlimited gas and all HTs have unlimited energy. i will admit that the lategame is in favor of protoss but maybe some of you should really reexamine some facts. if the protoss is able to sustain heavy HT warp in... maybe he just macroed better? how many times did you bash them for not being able to get HTs there in time? we always focus on our nerdrage and not our successes
one good point was that terran has to stay on MMM for too long. "so what do you expect? templar rape your t1 army" :< that is true but i have no answer for alternatives. well, some actually were mentioned but i dont know ^^ i think as it is today (this patch), terran has to rely on their high flexibility regarding movement/drop/harass. as we can see in games of qxc and jinro. spread the protoss out.,.. outplay him by being everywhere (so it looks like at least when i watch qxc play ). i admit, it is way harder to reach this high skill level (being able to multitask to that degree) that it is to get some good FF placements or storms. still i think this matchup has some room for development. for example the usage of ghosts.
sorry again for that awfully long post ^^ hope it wasnt that boring and some of you share my opinion!
My statement about the expense of Ghosts is in the context of rushing them to counteract mass FFs. That extra 300 gas spent to get your first Ghost is not spent on upgrades, teching to Medivacs, or Marauders can put a dent in your army by pushing back a lot of timings to keep your bio competitive. I get my second Gas relatively quickly (~25 supply), and I still cannot get Ghosts out in enough speed to affect anything early game. It's also a large gamble, since if the Protoss is going Colossus first, you don't have the infrastructure to get Vikings until 2-3 minutes later, and that really forces you to play defensive.
I think it's possible that some players forget to queue up units during the middle of battle, so it feels like the Protoss can reinforce instantly while they cannot at battle's end. I usually have a group of ~20 fresh units at the end of a fight to use to press forward, as they were made during the fight itself, so I don't feel particularly disadvantaged by Warpgates, but my main gripe is the ease for Protoss to sneak Pylons/Warp Prisms into places, which requires significantly more resources to deal with than just a drop, since one Prism can bring in something like 16 zealots late-game, while a drop ship can still only carry 4 Marauders.
And in most maps, it really is not possible to watch everywhere (who honestly can say they keep tabs on the backdoor route on Xel'Naga Caverns? Hasu wrecked Strelok's economy with 2 HTs from a proxy Pylon that way ~25 minutes into the game.
On December 14 2010 14:59 darth_hater wrote: i think the real problem is that the protoss late game just requires very little micro, spamming storm is easy as hell where as terran has to do much more. thus a lower or even skilled protoss player will win against a terran everytime.
actually both thors and bcs are the epitome of 1a-units unless u use their sniping abilities...
imho these 2 units are underused in lategame tvp atm. i dont think that the future of the MU lies in tanks.
BC's are "underused" because they are not good. Thors are ok, but they are really a slow unit looking for a job to fill. MMM does more dps and is more mobile than thors. The only thing the thor has going for it is that its basically immune to storm. Unfortunetly chargelots rape thors and a protoss late game has no shortage of those. Thors as they are right now, might be a decent thing to add to MMM, but they certainly do not replace it.
Once again we have Protoss players telling Terrans they are morons for not transitioning out of Bio without realizing that there is nothing to transition to! You can add thors to your bio, or tanks, but the core is still a large force of units which get raped by storm. Mech is not viable at high levels of play, as Jinro himself stated earlier. BC's are awful at their cost. I have noticed that both Zergs and Protoss often tell Terrans they need to transition out of bio without realizing that Terran doesn't have any other good comp.
You have to have bio as the core of your army or you lose. Any strategy for any race which rapes bio is super strong because even late game when toss has chargelots, HTs with amulets, and collosi T has to have bio. Our entire race is based around a T1 unit, the marine. Its not that the pro's are all stupid and just haven't experimented enough, you 1800 diamond protoss players aren't smarter than the Terran pro's. Their isn't a unit left to try. Until the game changes Terran goes Bio every matchup because Terran has no other effective unit comp in TvP.
Pretty much. All we can say is to macro and micro better than the Protoss, and use little tactics that Protoss do not expect and try to be everywhere at once while winning the main battle simultaneously.
It's not as bleak as some people make it sound, though, but a refusal to use Ghosts against HTs has the same amount of logic of refusing to use HTs against Terran bio.
Terran mech is noncompetitive, and post-nerf BCs cannot beat Blink Stalkers. Heck, post-nerf I lost a fight between 6 3/2 BCs and ~50 3/3 Marines, BCs are just not viable as anti-ground DPS right now, unlike Colossi.
I don't understand where protoss get off on "Omg emp has soooo much more range the EMP". It's one range. One range. How many terran do you know with godly EMP placement that can ensure they never get touched? It's like kiting marines with a banshee, and never getting hit only harder. Feedback takes way more skill for one range. roflshiftclick + obs. Here's your easy button.
I struggle in TvP mostly because my ghost play isn't nearly as good as it should be, and dodging storm. Killing one is next to impossible if they aren't retarded and can spam FF/later storm decently. I generally win when they give me their sentries, let me into their base or suicide their collosus.
On December 14 2010 14:59 darth_hater wrote: i think the real problem is that the protoss late game just requires very little micro, spamming storm is easy as hell where as terran has to do much more. thus a lower or even skilled protoss player will win against a terran everytime.
actually both thors and bcs are the epitome of 1a-units unless u use their sniping abilities...
imho these 2 units are underused in lategame tvp atm. i dont think that the future of the MU lies in tanks.
They are a move units and they have no useful splash damage except of air attack of Thors which only hurt phoenix and yamato which take a long time to fire. Higher tech of Protoss has insane AoE, Unless this game is drastically different from other RTS I don't see how such an expensive units as BC can be a part of the standard army since most likely you can only afford to field them once. The units that win games is always something that can be massed and remade at a reasonable cost.
There are some idiots in here has the guts to say "lol take tier 3 to beat tier 3." What the fuck do you even tech to?? BC?? Why are Protoss not winning game with Carriers then? And thor is so much worse than colossus so don't even go there.
It's kind of depressing that while Terran T1 cannot beat Protoss T3 (understandable, I mean, all that tech and everything), Terran T3 cannot beat Protoss T1 (Stalkers will rape... Well, every T3 unit, especially BC, and Thors die to Chargelots, which are at most T1.5 due to the Charge upgrade). So to the Protoss players suggesting that we tech up past Bio... We keep telling you guys, we don't have anything viable. When was the last time any of you lost to mass Thor?
From my experiences, Early game ghosts can be too devastating, and mid/late game Collosi are too easily dealt with, HT work well but are much more difficult to get than Collosi.
The possibility of banshees forces the Protoss to build a robo bay even if they do not want to as nobody wants to lose to cloaked banshees.
Also I find a tank/bunker slow push with MM harass very hard to deal with at expos.
Basically Terran is like a droid robot, like from star wars. We get some units that can do damage early in the game, pew pew but that's it. The droid stays like that for the rest of the game.
Meanwhile, Protoss is like a rhino. When it's starting out as a baby it's fragile and can be killed. But as it grows, its armor gets thicker and its horn will fry your entire army in seconds. Toss can reinforce across the map anywhere and stalkers are ridiculously fast, P is the new Z.
Thors suck and die to a simple gateway army, immortals, VRs, basically everything. Tanks have had their damage nerfed repeatedly. Protoss have a unit called the immortal meant to specifically kill the tank + chargelots take less damage. BCs are slow as hell and die to stalker FF or VRs, etc.
TvP is just a case of slowly watching your T1 army become obsolete.
I just made an epic post in literally the exact same thread so im copyin er over
TvP does typically come down to one battle. I am a Terran player that has recently spent a ton of time practising TvP: (peeling the onion) My style has been heavily influenced by qxc.
Early game: You can only really do any significant damage if he fast expands: then you can rock the stim timing or you can Thor rush (get strike cannons and use them on immortals). Teching to banshees is mildly advisable but you need to be ready with bunkers if he moves out. A Standard Build Done Right: Try getting 2 baracks's before the second supply depot then making 1 marine, a tech lab, instant concussive shells and a reactor on the second rax. Move out with the marauder and rally your troops to it. Chill at the bottom of the ramp if conc shells hasnt finished. Keep poking up and down to see what units he has. If you did it right and its small map he will have 2 units maximum. Typically 1 zealot and 1 stalker or 1 zealot and 1 sentry. If theres no sentry you can attack right now, kite the zealot then kill the stalker. If there is a sentry try to get him to force a forcefield but the only unit you will trade for it is the marine. Clocks ticking till he gets an immortal or warp gate research finishes and he will be able to over power you (~50 food). A quick summary of options are:
Pre-Mid Game Options: Third rax. Attack at the stim timing. Good luck with this cause its a dice roll. Good protosses will be able to defend it, bad protosses cry about it. Expand yourself, personally I don't do this, instead I Wait for him to expand, try to punish it with heavy bio Tech to Medivacs, drop ship harass Thor rush (strike cannons required, send at least 5 SCVs to repair) Banshees, both as a harass unit and en masse, which is discussed as an alternate to bio later For this guide, I will assume you just expanded around the time he did. He will probably attack you with an immortal timing or something. Might take some practise before you can defend it, but lets assume you defended it with a 2 rax early stim and are now expanding and teching to reactor-port.
The midgame (the hard part) Be afraid of his army. Be the zerg in Zerg vs Terran. Find out what he is doing by any means neccessary (short of spending a ton of scans) and react appropriately. He is probably going gawddamn collossus. If you think he hasnt teched past immortals try not to be suprised when psi storm kicks your ass. If and when he gets 3+ collossus you gotta be hella afraid of any direct engagement. You will get rofl stomped. Heres the setup you want: 2 fully saturated bases, ~10 baracks (more than you usually make, eh?), 1 starport with a reactor, +1 weapons +1 armour at least, stim and combat shields obviously, ~3 ghosts, at least 2 medivacs, 2x as many vikings as he has collossus. Now its time to get fancy. Heres the game plan:
Tactics: Get his army outta position. Your army works best in small squads, his army works best in a huge ball. Use drops and/or small ninja squads to get behind the frontlines. Position your vikings and the rest of your army in such a way that if and when he splits his army up you can attack a specific part of it. ie: position vikings so they can hit the collossus when he pulls back, position marauders to hit the stalkers. You need to split up your army into multiple groups as it grows in size. Use one group to 'lure' protoss forward and have the major part of your army sitting off to the side so that when he chases you into an open field with your army hiding somewhere behind him you throw down an EMP and a stim, get the vikings in from behind and pwn his army. Even if you do all those things, if you havent done economical damage you will take heavy losses, if not complete losses, from the engagement. Dont just sit and watch this happen. Basically your micro involves backing up and shooting. Use the H key for this. click behind your units tapping H every time you want them to shoot. Do it with the vikings and with the marauders. Make sure you never stop macroing and never get supply blocked.
If you traded armies and he doesnt have HT tech. You have almost won. Attack right the f*** now with ~20 food squads. Seriously. Fill up your medivacs and send them to multiple locations. Dont be stupid and dont lose them though. Kill everything you can. He will likely react most heavily to the first one to hit, so after about 5 seconds of damage, scan the ramp of the base your attacking to see his units coming. Kill 1 stalker if you can and get the hell outta there hopefully taking no losses. Then micro your other squads. If hes still in it, get your third up and running (if its not already), plan for your fourth and take stock of your production capabilities, do you need more baracks? Also try to start adding in 1 or 2 factory's worth of tank production. Start taking some map control with like 1 marine, find his army, if you can rofl it then go rofl it, if you dont know then do the same thing that got you here.
If he went HT instead of collossus you need ghost cloak. put your ghosts on a seperate hotkey and lure his army past your ghosts (hide them with terrain or cloak), EMP the HT's in the back. It takes 2 snipes to kill one which is less than an EMP, so if there split up, snipe them using the hotkey and fast ass clicking.
Third base timing: when you both have 150+armies and are staring each other down or your beginning your drop ship harass. After you throw down your third you want to avoid direct engagement for at least a minute or 2. Probably make it a planetary.
The Lategame: What the hell? You made it to the lategame? Well my friend, keep doin what your doin and youll probably win, but general ideas: If the unit count is low, emphasize bio. If the unit count is high, get the fuck outta bio.
Alternates to Bio: Banshee, Marine, Thor, Ft Raven off 2 base Open double port banshee, send your marines a little forward to deny scouting. Your taking a risk in the early game for this build. Any damage you do with the banshees should be thought of as a bonus. Do not lose a single banshee trying to harass. Use the time to get an expansion above and push out with the title unit composition. Have at least 3 PDDs worth of raven energy. Thor Rush ProTip: Strike cannon immortals, pray he fast expanded. Bring ~5-8 SCVs. Mech I've never defended the "immortal timing" protoss push. Im not even talking about the immortals, just the timing. Void rays can beat it, hell even regular gateway units beat it. If you can somehow defend that and get on 2 bases with some factories pumping siege tanks and blu flame hellions though, you can do some serious damage around the time his first collossus comes out Reapers Last game I played where I went reapers I got 24 kills between 6 reapers by the 15 minute mark and hadnt lost a single reaper. A couple of those kills were sentries too and I killed some pylons. Speed reapers are a great opening but the trick is to keep them alive the whole game. Technically not an alternate to bio but definitely not standard. Once you learn how to play bio in the midgame though, you'll love it's safety.
A lil about how I came up with this shit: I've been frustrated TvP lately too. Ya gotta realise that ya CANT fight collossus directly in the midgame just like how zerg cant fight sieged tanks in the midgame. I found a protoss practise partner who I still havent been able to beat, but I've been destroying tosses on the ladder as a result. The fact is that most tosses are used to Terrans playing poorly and are bad at reacting to well played Terran. If you wanna see some damn sexy TvP watch qxc. I first found about how awesome QXC is from a day9 daily where he drop ship harasses for the win with his first 2 medivacs. I have since been trying to play like him, only with a few tweaks.
The design goal shouldn't be that one race is stronger earlier and another is stronger later. What does that even mean - that it becomes a coinflip whether or not rockpaperscissors BOs turn out early?
The problem is simple - if the game heads into the macro direction of BW, where we see decision making on 3+ base income, then evenly matched 200/200 battles are crucial.
You can ignore this fact and call SC2 TvP balanced, but that will make the game strictly a subset of what BW was.
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But this isn't to say that the game has been fully explored. MASS ghost usage to deny EMPs AND blanket the army (when was the last time you saw 8 ghosts?), backup hellions to do the base push in (warpins are normally templar/zeal which hellions can dispose off faster than your remaining 8 marauder), even mass PDD perhaps at max pop.
On December 14 2010 17:59 naventus wrote: The design goal shouldn't be that one race is stronger earlier and another is stronger later. What does that even mean - that it becomes a coinflip whether or not rockpaperscissors BOs turn out early?
The problem is simple - if the game heads into the macro direction of BW, where we see decision making on 3+ base income, then evenly matched 200/200 battles are crucial.
You can ignore this fact and call SC2 TvP balanced, but that will make the game strictly a subset of what BW was.
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But this isn't to say that the game has been fully explored. MASS ghost usage to deny EMPs AND blanket the army (when was the last time you saw 8 ghosts?), backup hellions to do the base push in (warpins are normally templar/zeal which hellions can dispose off faster than your remaining 8 marauder), even mass PDD perhaps at max pop.
problem is ghosts and ravens are too fragile, expensive and take too long to build and Warp ins can be stalkers whenever protoss wants it to be stalkers instead of templar and zealots
Zerg has muta ling bling which is annoying and broodlord ultra switch if it comes that far which is hard to deal with BUT.. When it comes to toss there are mid / Lategame Comps who i feel are almost unbeatable which is coloss/phoenix with crit number coloss, ht/coloss/chargelots but truely good players just overwhelm equal players even without coloss and certain other combos. Oh and ye lategame there can be always hidden vray gathering and once theyr in ur base and charged its gg, cause its hard to break a toss when he has hts. So usually id think terran is or should be superior early game but its not in my oppinion, 2rax can put some pressure but you cannot kill a single good toss and you cant be too aggressiv or 2rax expand against a good toss, i even feel 1rax expand without pressuring is very unsafe, the recent diversity of toss aggression builds mixed with their 1gate/3gate/3gaterobo fe builds makes it hard to predict sometimes other than seein their gas go down or chronos.
- do you think that mech works against protoss (tanks + hellions + thors + Vikings and early game some marines)?
Mech does work but i wont be pure mech, banshee thor or banshee tank rine for early / early mid is pretty strong, late game against lot zealots and hts u can add blueflame or against stalkerheavy more thors tanks but it works fine if you stay atleast even in macro.
Mineral sink. What else should we bulk the army with?
Hellions are lolbad army units except for mass Zeal/sentry compositions
Thors? Ok if all P promise to have a stationary ground army throughout the game. (this unit is a bad idea to include in any serious RTS game- needs shrink ray and better pathing)
BCs, Siege, Banshee. Yes of course. But where do we put the minerals?
T has good gas heavy units but with low HP (for cost). meatshield = bio
I've found Storm kills anything on the ground short of Thors. Even fast units with or without stim take some to full damage and as long as they are running, they aren't shooting, but are getting shot at. Add Chargelots or Colossi to the mix and any ground army is going to have a very hard time.
Bio is good early game, but so hard to transition out of. You'll have all those Barracks and upgrades that become mostly worthless.
I've dabbled with early Ghosts which are good, but still leave you with Bio in the end. I'd rather not rely on the P player not paying close enough attention to his sentry for me to EMP it in order to move up the ramp. Even then, Ghosts will reduce the size of the MM ball quite a bit, making the push weaker.
This mostly leaves going for Air, staying defensively on the ground early on and forcing P to get Stalkers or just die to Banshees. Vikings and Ravens could be added with ground support as the game progresses. One important thing I've noticed is to be willing to trade units rather than kill one probe and then move your Banshees back.
If you keep the Banshee pressure on, keep his Stalker count low (even if this means losing a Banshee or two) and pick off probes whenever you can, P is constantly forced to produce new Stalkers, can't really critically mass them as much as he'd like.
Most importantly, teching to Storm, Chargelots or Colossi whilst constantly being pressured by Banshees is going to prove difficult.
It's mostly theorycraft, but with Bio scaling so badly as the game progresses and Mech being so slow and counterable, could Air heavy builds be the answer?
i feel like many ppl are overestimating the stalker and underestimating the ghost. stalker seem quite good and useful at the beginning. dealing dmg to marauder (zealots as meatshield) or abusing their superior range against marines to outmicro them. but in the lategame they are pretty bad. they scale VERY badly with upgrades. it is very well explained in that one PvZ thread:
Stalkers scale terribly with upgrades. Their measily +1 damage and lack of shield upgrades simply doesn't compare to the +2 for Roaches and the insane DPS of Hydras. +1 armor from the Zerg completely mitigates the +1 from Protoss on the Stalker and Sentry meaning their effectiveness, damage wise, against Roaches doesn't change throughout the game with equal upgrades. Meanwhile, a +2 Raoch has +4 damage, meaning they are dealing 4 more damage to shield and 2 more damage to HP (6 to shield/3 to HP at +3!). Thus, Stalker balls get crushed by Roach balls - particularly when burrow is thrown into the mix. So despite being the king of the early game, the Stalker becomes progressively worse throughout the game. Indeed for the most part, you will want to avoid stalkers in the late game, but we'll get to that later.
just switch roach with marauder and hydra with marine ^^ have you really aver tried to kill a BC with stalkers? its a pain in the ass... if you dont go BCs only, this is extremely effective, i would say. BCs tank the dmg while stimmed marauder will wipe the floor with the stalkers. BCs wont even die that fast to mass stoms. dont forget upgrades though.
as for ghosts: they really dont die that fast as everyone thinks. they have 100 HP and count only as psionic and biological. so they will never take bonus dmg (except against archons). they even have cloak! dont be too paranoid about the observers. most protoss will have 2 or 3 across the map in mid to lategame. if you watch out for them, they are pretty easy to spot, in my opinion. so scan and kill them. ghosts even do bonus dmg against them ^^ as have written in my previous post: ghost do pretty good even dmg wise. the same dmg as marauder except against light (sentry/zealots/HTs/DTs).
maybe you guys should just try out more variations of your MMM play with a lot of ghosts. they wont weaken your army as you all seem to fear.
That extra 300 gas spent to get your first Ghost is not spent on upgrades, teching to Medivacs, or Marauders can put a dent in your army by pushing back a lot of timings to keep your bio competitive.
ghosts also can hold off a ot of timings. have you ever seen a battle between an early bio army against an early gateway army? if the ghosts come early and you have stim and like 2-4 emps and just blanket the toss army, it isnt even close. its just ridiculous how the MMG rip through gateway units.
just dont underestimate ghosts... keep trying them and soon the protoss players come here to QQ about them and how early you can get them :<
I'm sorry but battlecruisers are not viable tvp, MMM is not viable late game if toss has amulet / storm Warp storms + collossi = gg T regardless of composition.
Battlecruisers ... feedback.. stalkers.. gg? Thors die to mass zealot immortal and since they take so long to build the protoss has plenty of time to rework his unit comp
Tanks are utterrly terrible vs Zealots. Because the nerf to the tanks made zealots essentially tank proof. Might as well be 20 charging immortals.
Hellions are very good vs the heavy zealots and I have had some luck mixing in blue flames thors mmm and ghost but quite honestly in the end the Psi storms just do so much damage and I'm having to Stim / EMP / Dodge storms / snipe with hellions / Reposition / siege if I have tanks / use my vikings .. and spread marines... all at the same time... while toss goes 1a 2 a 3 t shift t t t t tt t t t t t t t t t t t Therein lays the problem In order to be effective terran has a million clickies they have to hit and alot more movement to acomplish thats why it feels so desperate in fights.
So yes There are alot of Terran all ins, and if you are complaining about them then you just are not scouting / preparing properly.
One can theory craft all day about unit composition vs unit composition and never understand the dynamic of a fight. Anyone who says terran goes 1a win obviously has no idea how to play terran and would lose their mind trying to control all the multitude of unit types we must have to contend vs late game toss. This is why you see lots of Pros just going MMM+ghost+viking so they can keep the workload on an even footing EMP STIM move around alot to dodge storms and engage when it feels safe while harassign collossi with viking. They do this to reduce the micro workload. If you watch jinro play it is much the same. He just macros out tons and tons of mmm trying to keep up with his losses.
The more different units types you mix in the more difficult it is to control in a fight. MMM is strong early game but not by any means unbeatable by gateway units with proper flanking and forcefields you can play havoc with mmm as toss. TvP Early game is balanced. If you are losing to mmm push try making more units and not rushing like mad for tech that you should be getting later based on your scouting.
I think that collossi are fine, I think that templar are fine and balanced. I do however think the amulet is a little over the top as even with perfect micro I emp all his templar and then he just warps in more and storms me to death. and templar+ collossi is just GG as terran has had to rely on a bio centric army to stay alive now he is just completley outclassed by tech with no real option for counter. Viking ghost argument. ok.. Works fine until he warps in more templar and storms you to death even though you got perfect emp hits........... It's hard enough to viking harrass dodge and emp at the same time when you pull it off you shouldnt be rewarded with 4-5 more temps warping in and nuking your army...
On December 14 2010 20:17 xSuperflyTnT wrote: I'm sorry but battlecruisers are not viable tvp, MMM is not viable late game if toss has amulet / storm Warp storms + collossi = gg T regardless of composition.
Battlecruisers ... feedback.. stalkers.. gg? Thors die to mass zealot immortal and since they take so long to build the protoss has plenty of time to rework his unit comp
Tanks are utterrly terrible vs Zealots. Because the nerf to the tanks made zealots essentially tank proof. Might as well be 20 charging immortals.
Hellions are very good vs the heavy zealots and I have had some luck mixing in blue flames thors mmm and ghost but quite honestly in the end the Psi storms just do so much damage and I'm having to Stim / EMP / Dodge storms / snipe with hellions / Reposition / siege if I have tanks / use my vikings .. and spread marines... all at the same time... while toss goes 1a 2 a 3 t shift t t t t tt t t t t t t t t t t t Therein lays the problem In order to be effective terran has a million clickies they have to hit and alot more movement to acomplish thats why it feels so desperate in fights.
So yes There are alot of Terran all ins, and if you are complaining about them then you just are not scouting / preparing properly.
One can theory craft all day about unit composition vs unit composition and never understand the dynamic of a fight. Anyone who says terran goes 1a win obviously has no idea how to play terran and would lose their mind trying to control all the multitude of unit types we must have to contend vs late game toss. This is why you see lots of Pros just going MMM+ghost+viking so they can keep the workload on an even footing EMP STIM move around alot to dodge storms and engage when it feels safe while harassign collossi with viking. They do this to reduce the micro workload. If you watch jinro play it is much the same. He just macros out tons and tons of mmm trying to keep up with his losses.
The more different units types you mix in the more difficult it is to control in a fight. MMM is strong early game but not by any means unbeatable by gateway units with proper flanking and forcefields you can play havoc with mmm as toss. TvP Early game is balanced. If you are losing to mmm push try making more units and not rushing like mad for tech that you should be getting later based on your scouting.
I think that collossi are fine, I think that templar are fine and balanced. I do however think the amulet is a little over the top as even with perfect micro I emp all his templar and then he just warps in more and storms me to death. and templar+ collossi is just GG as terran has had to rely on a bio centric army to stay alive now he is just completley outclassed by tech with no real option for counter. Viking ghost argument. ok.. Works fine until he warps in more templar and storms you to death even though you got perfect emp hits........... It's hard enough to viking harrass dodge and emp at the same time when you pull it off you shouldnt be rewarded with 4-5 more temps warping in and nuking your army...
Just my take on it.
Your take on this is very biased, as pretty much every terran in this thread. I trust jinro on this.
"TvP Early game is balanced. If you are losing to mmm push try making more units and not rushing like mad for tech that you should be getting later based on your scouting." "So yes There are alot of Terran all ins, and if you are complaining about them then you just are not scouting / preparing properly. "
This is just bull****. Its equal to a toss saying "Dont whine about late game, when you play for an early game advantage/win". Also toss scouting options early game are really bad.
a lot of protoss players finally realising they don't need to tech up quickly and is better to get more gateway units (if you scout no starport) and get robo later, also HT > collosus tech but mix of both is really good (on euro server at least, mana showed it at dreamhack)
terran players havent really adapted to it yet, obviously there are timings before HT tech finishes and P takes 3rd but because of lot of gateway units it's dificult to hit it and win, obviously maps play big role but i've had succes with bio+tanks mid game and in late game with 3+ expo i just add more factories for tank/hellion (and reactor vikings) and GHOSTS and UPGRADES!!! they\re very important. i had a cool game vs whitera on the ladder on shakuras where i went that and he responded with blink stalkers/ht/voids and ground army.
ninja edit: carriers are HUUGE problem because of their range (+ interceptor range) they own vikings and if you assume toss has HT tech then marines are ... only counter are battlecruisers but .. don't really want to see carrier vs bc battles every longer game and even then P has probably advantage due to feedback
there are many players who just ruin this thread. We don't want your analysis why warpgate isn't imba etc. We need to find the solutions, so please people below the level the OP said hold your comments back, or support them with evidence, else, there is too much spam and this awesome discussion is being ruined
as what was stated and was somehow proven in high level play
some basic knowledge -as jinro said, early game is ok as are templar warpins -The terran has problems attacking toss, when he has HT with amulet. Even if he wins a fight, his units are so damaged he can't attack the protoss base -Early game pushes are really strong due to good sentry play -Terran can't safely 2rax or 1 rax expand as protoss can -Terran can't attack the toss due to Forcefields -you can't fight toss army with collosus head on with your bio/viking/ghost composition (like attacking into siege tanks) -collosi and templar rape bio, it ain't even nice to watch and all the commentators talking about great storms seem to actually never have played the game -Toss has his HT splitted in the back, because he doesnt need to feedback your ghost but to storm your units, we don't have the luxury -2 thor push crushes protoss 1 gate FE, due to Force field being ineffective, but it gets crushed by zealots and immortals/collosi -2 port banshee w raven crushes immortal/collosi, but has problem with Templar tech and stargate play and to some extend blink stalker play
Sollution/suggestion Sun Tzu is always here to help -If the enemy is strong evade him(as zers used to evade tank lines in bw, now tanks are pathethic, but you see the point) -If you can't fight him in an even fight, divide his forces (drop him and attack him, drop him and harras w banshees, whatever you do, you need a 2 frontal attack, else most toss players have not really a problem to shut it down) Use the combination of the units stated above to even the big fight. Thors in front to tank and hit the air and snipe observer and crush forcefields. Marines BEHIND the thors to kill the incoming zealots. BC above the army, but spread out a bit, now he needs to feedback you before you go yamato cannon crazy, so he needs his templar in the FRONT, emp them guys and after they qq tell them to l2p J/K
Now how to put it all together, the qxc vs kiwikaki game may be a hint as well as painuser vs liquidtyler and liquid nazghul at the dallas tournament. Both of the used banshees and vikings to snipe observers and then destroy the powerunits of toss. Toss needs more observers, this means less immortal/collosi. He can't force field air and if he doesn't make starport and u have enough raven energy its basically a gg for him. Nowadays toss players learned how to counter this strat, with going phoenix as a counter. Now the thor comes to play, your useless factory is now really important. With thors, few vikings and banshees with raven you can do the same push as before, but now FF won't be as usefull and the air he got gets killed in seconds (as the thor does). The fights should be really even and you can expand behind. Now usually comes the timing where HT hits and your best bet is BC as awkward as it sounds, continue to use your air advantage. BC's are great meatshield, tank a lot of dmg, have not so good dps but they have yamato. And now comes the fun part. He can either storm and feedback after, but your army is a little behind so he would have to move to it or he can feedback them with HT, but you have your ghosts there and can emp them. A situation where its feedback or loose my powerunits to yamato as opposed to emp and don't loose to storm. From there on you continue with your BC, thor, raven, ghost production, since these all cost so much gas u have tons of minerals, Make a lot of CC's and PF around them. Use mostly mules to mine, SCV's cut into your army count and are too fragile to storm, warp. Make a few OC just for muling/scans if you can afford it. Build those free BUNKERS, you can then build marines more safely and build hellions as a flank unit. It has many flaws but this is imho the way to go if we want to see a kind of head on battle of 2 high tech armies. Not to end it quickly but to go to the lategame without being overrun and adding the high tech units as toss and zergs do.
The other way around is some 1 or 2 base push or constantly trading units with the protoss so he can't get enough of them to run you over, while you tech to marauder, ghost, medivac, viking army with lots of drops and small army engagement.
Is there a high level play 2500+ like who tried such a strategy more than once, what are your thought on the play.
Another problem with ht's i noticed is the warp -prism ht drop/warpin against scvs. There is almost nothing a terran can do against it (or at least i havent found a way). PF doesnt have nearly enough range to defend. If you leave 3-4 (actually insert any number of units here) units then the P can warp in 2-3 zealots just to draw fire and with 2-3 temps (warpedin or dropped from the prism) can just wtfpwn all your scvs.
TvP is just dependent on such narrow timing windows right now. If you can apply some early pressure against an expanding Protoss, make him over-react or make too many gates or throw down a bunch of reactionary cannons or something, there's this mini-timing off 2 bases where you hit a critical mass of marauders. However, you miss that timing by a minute, and he has 2 immortals, is perfectly safe, and is in the process of getting HT tech.
Really, once the game goes past 20 minutes, if you haven't already inflicted a ridiculous amount of damage on the Protoss and are in the lead, you've lost. Pros like iNControl have said that once the Protoss gets high templar with Khaydarin Amulet, they've already won the game. The only way to stop the amazing portable DPS of storms is making a whole ton of ghosts, getting cloaking, and getting the Ghost energy upgrade. However, if you EMP 20 templars (effectively making them temporarily useless), the Protoss can have 5 more of them with his army in just a few seconds. The same logic doesn't apply to Ghosts. If you lose 5, they have to build and walk to your army to be ready to EMP again.
It almost reminds me of a late game Zerg who is on 4 bases with a couple macro hatches. He can lose 100 food and be re-maxed in 30 seconds. Protoss can expend a huge amount of damage with storms, and have more damage ready in seconds because of warp-in.
except for the fact that vs 4 base zerg you could grab wahts left of the map and turtle like mad with vulture mines/tanks and be perfectly fine. You cant ever put less gas on a protoss ever imo because if templars are ready and the 3th base is under construction the step to a voidray/carrier switch with defensive templars is a small one. And whatever protoss fanboys may argue there is simply no counter to voidray/carrier + warpin templars with mineral dumb in zealots.
I only read the first few pages, and i'm a mere Platinum level player however i'd like to share my thoughts on late game PvT. I think that banshee/viking/raven should be included in your composition. You need enough vikings to kill off observers, the raven detects them and the banshees are there to snipe the high templar when they can be cloaked and not feedbacked. The banshees are also extremely effective against just about all protoss ground from that point if you've managed a solid number of them.
This would force the stargate play from the protoss by this time. Now i think that stargate play is much easier for terran to deal with, because marines are so damn good against it, vikings are solid and if flux vanes is indeed to be removed, then they get better. Also by forcing a stargate transition you end up with a pretty large timing window as you have vikings already for air dominance and presumably some marines around to dump minerals on.
I also despite Jinro's dislike for it, enjoy mech against the protoss. I find marine (bunkered) + tank + some thors to be superb mid game. The thors just destroy stalkers so well, and tank a heck of a lot. Bunkered marines are much much safer in there, they are incredible dps and its always been about keeping them alive, so, give them more hp effectively and invulnerability to storm. Tanks are self explanitary, they just do so much damage that again you force stargate play, but this time you actually force void ray or carrier, as the thors just screw phoenix so badly. Your bunkered marines should suffice verses void ray play, but if you scan to find out their transition i'd advise a double reactor starport play in response. Vikings are going to become necessary, as they'll either colossus bust if they think they can (not the best response to your play, but can work), so the vikings will bust that open. Verses void ray, with the ground support you have vikings will be sufficient and carriers lose to vikings anyway + have huge build time again leading to a large timing window for you.
I used to play protoss, then zerg and now random on ladder by the way.
On December 14 2010 21:07 PredY wrote: a lot of protoss players finally realising they don't need to tech up quickly and is better to get more gateway units (if you scout no starport) and get robo later, also HT > collosus tech but mix of both is really good (on euro server at least, mana showed it at dreamhack)
If meta-game changes and more terrans go for quick cloak harass (again) then this will be problematic (again) - also how can you scout no starport and..."then"...get robo later? No offense, I know you are an amazing player, but basicly this in a nutshell is the problem: how the hell am I supposed to know if you are not throwing down a quick stargate? As you probably know very well, T can do this with tech lab baracks as well, as we can see eg. from Fenix.
Maybe quick(er) hallucination will change this. Maybe faster buildtime for phoenixes will make 1 gate stargate 2 gate expand into mass-gate viable when you have some phoenixes out fast for harassment to afford a templar-tech with very delayed robo.
@Topic: I think it - again - comes down to the problem of maps. I think terrans should take way more advantage of their midgame (if somebody tries to argue that MMM < gateway-units a kitten will die). But on the current maps there's not really "room" for outexpanding someone, as all bases are basicly quite clumped together. But on Shakuras, T can keep me on 2 base with drops/attacks while getting to 4 base if I tech straight HT. Then I am in a world of kaka.
Some very good points from posters above me. I want to add some more. As a Terran player: I noticed that recently Protoss players use HT way more and in the mix with Colossus, they are too deadly to any Terran army. Protoss ball late game is...scary.
Right now what I do is attack them in some small timing window hoping to criple them enough to gain an advantage and work from that.
Also, prevent Protoss from taking his 5th and 6th gas(3 base) is crucial. HT and colossus are very gas heavy. With the 6 gas or more, its too easy for Protoss to switch tech. One minute Protoss has alot of HT, and then in the next fight, he just has some more colossus and Terran is screw.
Maybe its time to introduce mech into Terran army vs Protoss. Bio with Ghost is now having a very difficult time.
@T T3 BCs > everything if in equal number Ghosts > HTs
Here's one thing for certain: you aren't getting out BCs in numbers large enough to make a difference, and ghosts, while effective against HTs/sentries, are actually near worthless against everything else - not even chargelots.
This may seem like an oversimplification but it is essentially meanlingless to push into warpgates as T as your MMM will evaporate. Unfortunately, you're going to have to build a ton of marines to mineral dump and keep them in the rear. So far, so good.
The only units that do decently are, surprise, air units. P does not have an answer to vikings and heavy banshees with marines sitting in the back. Phoenixes have such short range that they are practically worthless if the marines manage to avoid collosi, plus they aren't actually all that powerful against vikings.
Stalkers suck. The only way they will beat banshees is by getting blink, and there's absolutely no point blinking into a marine ball or thors. Meanwhile, tanks suck as much as stalkers. With the impending BT of phoenixes reduced there will be even less incentive to make them. VRs, immortals, chargelots and phoenixes completely crush them (ahh, what happened, BW?), and without large numbers blink stalkers and collosi (catching them as they unsiege) are not too bad either.
My hypothesis is this:
Transition out of MMM asap after the pressure is done. Make forcefields useless. Have solid fodder. Air needs to deliver the bulk of the DPS, and before they hit critical mass they can be used to harass.
Therefore Thors, Marines, Vikings and Banshees will always be in my composition. 1 Raven and ghosts to match HTs. We'll need to hit a critical timing window, preferably as the P takes a 3rd or amulet tech and gain a sizeable advantage.
Thors pound on stalkers/phoenixes. Marines will stay behind thors and melt VRs, blink stalkers and phoenixes. Marine control to avoid coming in range of collosi or storm is paramount. Meanwhile, ghosts EMP out HTs, immortals, sentries and stalker balls. Thors tank everything for marines - especially chargelots. Meanwhile vikings snipe high priority targets like collosi and VRs. Banshees also help snipe collosi and provide the bulk of the anti ground DPS.
Don't get ground upgrades; get air instead. Transition into 2 port (or more) BCs, ghosts and marines.
Looks incredibly gas heavy at first sight, but vikings and thors are actually not ultra gas heavy like ghosts are. Adjusting the composition to your enemy's is the most important thing you can do.
The idea is there - mitigate storm damage and forcefields by NOT relying on MMM. Abuse the piss poor DPS of stalkers and crush them with thors and banshees. Vikings snipe collosi and fare alright against phoenixes. Marines, when unmolested by AOE, wreck phoenixes and chargelots with thors in front. EMPs are always essential. Once anti-air is down, banshees and vikings go in for the win - nevermind if all thors and marines are dead. What use are immortals and chargelots now?
In theory it is sound. In practice I think you need incredible micro to pull it off. Vikings should snipe collosi and if he responds with stalkers bring in banshee + PDD support. If he responds by bringing HTs forward then you must very quickly EMP/snipe them before he can get a storm/feedback off on the banshees. Maybe it's better to waste cloak energy down to a very low point before engaging so feedback is nearly worthless.
On December 14 2010 23:23 4Servy wrote: except for the fact that vs 4 base zerg you could grab wahts left of the map and turtle like mad with vulture mines/tanks and be perfectly fine. You cant ever put less gas on a protoss ever imo because if templars are ready and the 3th base is under construction the step to a voidray/carrier switch with defensive templars is a small one. And whatever protoss fanboys may argue there is simply no counter to voidray/carrier + warpin templars with mineral dumb in zealots.
when the fuck did we get vultures ! (read in the voice of the handicapped kid from the movie the ringer)
@T T3 BCs > everything if in equal number Ghosts > HTs
Here's one thing for certain: you aren't getting out BCs in numbers large enough to make a difference, and ghosts, while effective against HTs/sentries, are actually near worthless against everything else - not even chargelots.
This may seem like an oversimplification but it is essentially meanlingless to push into warpgates as T as your MMM will evaporate. Unfortunately, you're going to have to build a ton of marines to mineral dump and keep them in the rear. So far, so good.
The only units that do decently are, surprise, air units. P does not have an answer to vikings and heavy banshees with marines sitting in the back. Phoenixes have such short range that they are practically worthless if the marines manage to avoid collosi, plus they aren't actually all that powerful against vikings.
Stalkers suck. The only way they will beat banshees is by getting blink, and there's absolutely no point blinking into a marine ball or thors. Meanwhile, tanks suck as much as stalkers. With the impending BT of phoenixes reduced there will be even less incentive to make them. VRs, immortals, chargelots and phoenixes completely crush them (ahh, what happened, BW?), and without large numbers blink stalkers and collosi (catching them as they unsiege) are not too bad either.
My hypothesis is this:
Transition out of MMM asap after the pressure is done. Make forcefields useless. Have solid fodder. Air needs to deliver the bulk of the DPS, and before they hit critical mass they can be used to harass.
Therefore Thors, Marines, Vikings and Banshees will always be in my composition. 1 Raven and ghosts to match HTs. We'll need to hit a critical timing window, preferably as the P takes a 3rd or amulet tech and gain a sizeable advantage.
Thors pound on stalkers/phoenixes. Marines will stay behind thors and melt VRs, blink stalkers and phoenixes. Marine control to avoid coming in range of collosi or storm is paramount. Meanwhile, ghosts EMP out HTs, immortals, sentries and stalker balls. Thors tank everything for marines - especially chargelots. Meanwhile vikings snipe high priority targets like collosi and VRs. Banshees also help snipe collosi and provide the bulk of the anti ground DPS.
Don't get ground upgrades; get air instead. Transition into 2 port (or more) BCs, ghosts and marines.
Looks incredibly gas heavy at first sight, but vikings and thors are actually not ultra gas heavy like ghosts are. Adjusting the composition to your enemy's is the most important thing you can do.
The idea is there - mitigate storm damage and forcefields by NOT relying on MMM. Abuse the piss poor DPS of stalkers and crush them with thors and banshees. Vikings snipe collosi and fare alright against phoenixes. Marines, when unmolested by AOE, wreck phoenixes and chargelots with thors in front. EMPs are always essential. Once anti-air is down, banshees and vikings go in for the win - nevermind if all thors and marines are dead. What use are immortals and chargelots now?
In theory it is sound. In practice I think you need incredible micro to pull it off. Vikings should snipe collosi and if he responds with stalkers bring in banshee + PDD support. If he responds by bringing HTs forward then you must very quickly EMP/snipe them before he can get a storm/feedback off on the banshees. Maybe it's better to waste cloak energy down to a very low point before engaging so feedback is nearly worthless.
I like this approach, though it may be focusing on way too many units.
The focus on air is interesting, I think it's acceptable to say that Protoss Anti-Air is the worst out of the 3 races, at least judging from how many people I know who cannot deal with Mutalisks. Perhaps we should work in that direction as well, since Stalkers do not do extra damage versus Banshees. I will try out some Viking/Banshees mixes in which I start a fight by dropping a Scan and going with Vikings first to snipe his Detection.
As to the people who consider PvT even and T just needs to L2P... Here:
Blizzard considers a win/loss ratio within +/- 5% to be balanced, and both NA and Korea PvT have a win ratio higher than that in Diamond. Diamond win/loss ratios matter a lot more than tournaments, because I'm pretty certain this thread is for regular players and not a bunch of pros.
i'm a protoss player (2200 diamond), and I think the overall MU is balanced, but the stages of the game are not. Early game favours T, late game favours P.
If I can force 3+ base play, I will usually win pvt. It's rare that I win off 1 or 2 bases unless I do something cheesy or sneaky. With sub-pro level forcefield placements, MM > gateway units by quite a lot. Might be balanced when it's MC vs. Jinro, but for your average diamond player like me... forget it.
I am not sure if the matchup is balanced on GSL level skill since I have neither the macro, micro or strategy skill to judge that. I just know that on my level (top 15% of Diamond) early games seems even, mid game seems to be in in Protoss favor and late game is almost auto-win for Protoss.
On my level the Protoss army are just much more cost effective past early game and mistakes from the Terran player are punished much more severely than mistakes from the Protoss player. If the Terran player fails to dodge a few storms they have lost the game but Protoss can get most of their army EMP:ed and still win the battle.
Protoss have 3 units that are great late game - HTs, Collossus and Carriers. Terrans really have nothing to look forward at, MMM is a good as it gets. This is both a balance and a design issue.
On December 15 2010 01:58 farseerdk wrote: i'm a protoss player (2200 diamond), and I think the overall MU is balanced, but the stages of the game are not. Early game favours T, late game favours P.
If I can force 3+ base play, I will usually win pvt. It's rare that I win off 1 or 2 bases unless I do something cheesy or sneaky. With sub-pro level forcefield placements, MM > gateway units by quite a lot. Might be balanced when it's MC vs. Jinro, but for your average diamond player like me... forget it.
Stim lets Terran roll right over Protoss Gateway armies, while FF rebalances the fight again, that's perfectly fair. It means T1 Terran has a big advantage if he gets Stim and engages Protoss in a location that the Protoss does not have enough Sentry energy to FF effectively, but most naturals, and especially mains, are designed for a small number of FFs to work well. This more or less puts P and T on equal footing in T1- P cannot march out and T cannot push in.
T2 sees Medivacs and Ghosts to make FF a bit less important, but P also get Immortals and Charge that gives P a Marauder melting unit and gives Zealots better DPS and Tanking ability by being right up in T's face. This Tier is still pretty even, since an only Marauder army comp will get rolled by Chargelot/Immortal, but T can actually get into the natural/main now, even if it's with just one Dropship or need some money EMPs.
T3 gives Protoss their Range 9 Colossi and HTs (usually pick one, since we're assuming Protoss is just not allowed to mine gas indefinitely on 6 geysers if T is even slightly competent), while Terran does not have anything to scale up in response. Mass Vikings is a good T2 hard-counter to Colossi, and better Ghost micro than HT micro (it's a big EMP/FB duel if both players are good with their casters) is a T2 counter to T3 Templar, but note that Terran can only counter at this stage. I don't think any high ranked Protoss players ever worry that their lack of aggression will result in a critical mass of BCs or Thors, because they just come out way too slowly.
Fully upgraded Terran Air will wreck most Protoss if they get the ball rolling hard enough only because most Protoss do not expect or have a lot of experience fighting Terran Air, not because they can't. I felt the BC nerf was a bit unneeded... It's already one of the slowest, longest building, and most expensive units in the game, it really does need to be to do more damage for the huge investment.
I made an epic post on page 11 that terran's should read. I am a terran player.
tl;dr, be the zerg in TvZ. what this means is avoid direct engagement and harass multiple locations. If and when you do directly engage make sure you have a good flank and fantastic micro. Collossus are really hard to beat and fairly easy to use, but when you do figure out how to beat it you can make the Protoss look like a gawd dayum fool.
On December 15 2010 00:22 Caphe wrote: Some very good points from posters above me. I want to add some more. As a Terran player: I noticed that recently Protoss players use HT way more and in the mix with Colossus, they are too deadly to any Terran army. Protoss ball late game is...scary.
Right now what I do is attack them in some small timing window hoping to criple them enough to gain an advantage and work from that.
Also, prevent Protoss from taking his 5th and 6th gas(3 base) is crucial. HT and colossus are very gas heavy. With the 6 gas or more, its too easy for Protoss to switch tech. One minute Protoss has alot of HT, and then in the next fight, he just has some more colossus and Terran is screw.
Maybe its time to introduce mech into Terran army vs Protoss. Bio with Ghost is now having a very difficult time.
Ghost-mech is the future end game. Speed rays make this difficult because the mech army is so immobile. The map pool also has quite a few maps where this comp is harder to pull off as early as many terrans are trying. Larger, macro based maps with a close third are ideal for this style of play. This is why it works on LT when spawning cross position or short air distance (which is not to say that protoss doesnt have responses to this style in those positions, blink stalker for instance) From a protoss players perspective, the real key is transitioning to the right techs at the right time. Its quite often that I lose to terran during these transitions and the transition from collossus to templar even on 3 bases isn't a fast one. The response the collossuss forces is truly what makes it difficult for terran bio when the protoss is good about keeping some sentries around.
Storm is NOT the problem as Jinro correctly pointed out. Storm feels more deadly than it is, but if you watch any resources lost station on this matchup when a player goes templar you will see why Templar are not auto-win. People don't think of things in these terms... terms of attrition, etc.. many top players don't even think in these terms and these are the players that will fade away on the scene when more mindful players come about. On the lower levels its even worse (~2500 diamond and below), people will blame templar over collossuss because they aren't satisfied with what is supposed to be the "counter" to the templar. If he goes collossuss your response is built into your play style, Marauder/Viking, if he goes templar you have to go ghost, use spreading tactics, be good with those ghosts, and have a general knack for realizing just because you are losing small bio forces here and there you are NOT falling behind. It requires more than just building a certain unit. I can guarantee more top terrans would rather go against templar than collossuss.
The matchup is one that feels very different between the continents now watching some of HuK's stream in Korea. The Koreans are so aggressive that Huk seems to have changed his playstyle quite a bit over the past week. On small maps he doesn't pylon scout anymore and vs terrans hes been going gates and double robo and really delaying his transition. A week ago I checked out the stream and he seemed to be getting crushed by every terran and every korean terran was super aggressive, streaming units in all early game and eventually breaking him. This week, with more reliance on collossus he looks alot more in control and quite strong.
On the NA/Euro servers the terans just aren't as good. You reference Sjow, but what has he done? Won a few online tournaments? He's not exactly a pillar of the terran community. Out of all the non-koreans I feel the one with the highest upside is QXC, but thats because he has an absurd amount of aggression
On December 14 2010 21:07 PredY wrote: a lot of protoss players finally realising they don't need to tech up quickly and is better to get more gateway units (if you scout no starport) and get robo later, also HT > collosus tech but mix of both is really good (on euro server at least, mana showed it at dreamhack)
If meta-game changes and more terrans go for quick cloak harass (again) then this will be problematic (again) - also how can you scout no starport and..."then"...get robo later? No offense, I know you are an amazing player, but basicly this in a nutshell is the problem: how the hell am I supposed to know if you are not throwing down a quick stargate? As you probably know very well, T can do this with tech lab baracks as well, as we can see eg. from Fenix.
Maybe quick(er) hallucination will change this. Maybe faster buildtime for phoenixes will make 1 gate stargate 2 gate expand into mass-gate viable when you have some phoenixes out fast for harassment to afford a templar-tech with very delayed robo.
@Topic: I think it - again - comes down to the problem of maps. I think terrans should take way more advantage of their midgame (if somebody tries to argue that MMM < gateway-units a kitten will die). But on the current maps there's not really "room" for outexpanding someone, as all bases are basicly quite clumped together. But on Shakuras, T can keep me on 2 base with drops/attacks while getting to 4 base if I tech straight HT. Then I am in a world of kaka.
what i meant was probably not really "scouting" but: with the first probe you can see gas/double gas, sometimes even 2nd rax or tech lab but terran will usually hide it. you can scout if T is going expo, or from poke ins with units you can see if he is going 2rax or 3rax or staying on 1rax (usually gets a bunker). then if you guess he is not doing cloak banshee you can get robo later, that's what i meant. this is for fast expanding protoss btw (with 4 sentry at best, vs some kind of 1base mmm agression)
in the coming patch the means of scouting will be easier for protoss (quicker phoenix/hallucination).
You know, I was just watching day9's newest Funday Monday about BC rushes for the giggles, and I noticed something really crazy: they're getting out their first BC at 8:30.
Holy balls, how many Protoss builds can handle a BC/Marine push at 9 minutes?
Okay, probably quite a few builds, but it's still eye-opening how obscenely fast you can start slapping down BCs. I think I'll go off on a losing streak against Protoss to try to somehow make fast air.
The biggest problem with terran imo is that they don't have a strong unit that is mobile unlike zerg and protoss.(collosus/ultra) This lack of mobility makes it almost impossible to win a macro game as you aren't able to defend your expo's nor do your reinforcements come in fast enough to kill your opponent in a big macro game. If let's say thor or bc were faster they would be viable and more terrans would use them. If they don't change this they should atleast add irradiate to ravens. Imo that's the only way terran could survive & even win a long macro game.
Btw, The fact that blizzard is about to nerf fungal growth is gonna make zergplay alot more boring too imo. So far blizzard's changes haven't really balanced the game but nerfed the players options. Imo they should keep fungal growth as it is, the only thing they should change is the fact that the units are stuck once it's casted. Basicly changing neural parasite into old school plague :p.
On December 15 2010 03:58 Goose- wrote: The biggest problem with terran imo is that they don't have a strong unit that is mobile unlike zerg and protoss.(collosus/ultra) This lack of mobility makes it almost impossible to win a macro game as you aren't able to defend your expo's nor do your reinforcements come in fast enough to kill your opponent in a big macro game. If let's say thor or bc were faster they would be viable and more terrans would use them. If they don't change this they should atleast add irradiate to ravens. Imo that's the only way terran could survive & even win a long macro game.
Btw, The fact that blizzard is about to nerf neural parasite is gonna make zergplay alot more boring too imo. So far blizzard's changes haven't really balanced the game but nerfed the players options. Imo they should keep neural parasite as it is, the only thing they should change is the fact that the units are stuck once it's casted. Basicly changing neural parasite into old school plague :p.
Terran is much slower than the other races, but if you want units the same speed and threat level as Colossus/Ultra- 3/3 Marauders with Medivacs. Seriously, 8 of these guys can break an expansion in less than a minute, which is about the same speed as Colossus/Ultra, and you cannot just fend them off with static defense. Marauders can outfight every Gateway unit in 1 on 1 combat using pure math when Stim'd, too.
On December 15 2010 03:58 Goose- wrote: The biggest problem with terran imo is that they don't have a strong unit that is mobile unlike zerg and protoss.(collosus/ultra) This lack of mobility makes it almost impossible to win a macro game as you aren't able to defend your expo's nor do your reinforcements come in fast enough to kill your opponent in a big macro game. If let's say thor or bc were faster they would be viable and more terrans would use them. If they don't change this they should atleast add irradiate to ravens. Imo that's the only way terran could survive & even win a long macro game.
Btw, The fact that blizzard is about to nerf neural parasite is gonna make zergplay alot more boring too imo. So far blizzard's changes haven't really balanced the game but nerfed the players options. Imo they should keep neural parasite as it is, the only thing they should change is the fact that the units are stuck once it's casted. Basicly changing neural parasite into old school plague :p.
Terran is much slower than the other races, but if you want units the same speed and threat level as Colossus/Ultra- 3/3 Marauders with Medivacs. Seriously, 8 of these guys can break an expansion in less than a minute, which is about the same speed as Colossus/Ultra, and you cannot just fend them off with static defense. Marauders can outfight every Gateway unit in 1 on 1 combat using pure math when Stim'd, too.
8 Marauders and 2 Medivacs = 20 food. If the Terran sends 20 food worth of units to drop an expo, the Protoss just uses his main army to roflstomp whatever the Terran has defending his base, kills all his production structures, while warping in hts and zealots to defend the drop. Once a Terran loses his main army, it is almost impossible to come back as the reinforcing units get killed as they come out of the rax/factories while Protoss reinforcements get warped in at a different location.
On December 15 2010 00:22 Caphe wrote: Some very good points from posters above me. I want to add some more. As a Terran player: I noticed that recently Protoss players use HT way more and in the mix with Colossus, they are too deadly to any Terran army. Protoss ball late game is...scary.
Right now what I do is attack them in some small timing window hoping to criple them enough to gain an advantage and work from that.
Also, prevent Protoss from taking his 5th and 6th gas(3 base) is crucial. HT and colossus are very gas heavy. With the 6 gas or more, its too easy for Protoss to switch tech. One minute Protoss has alot of HT, and then in the next fight, he just has some more colossus and Terran is screw.
Maybe its time to introduce mech into Terran army vs Protoss. Bio with Ghost is now having a very difficult time.
Ghost-mech is the future end game.
I'd read the rest of your post, if you didn't open with a ghost-mech argument.
Ghost mech is true garbage, anyone with the intentions of meching will and deserves to lose outright anyway.
Hellions are garbage, their supposed to kill light units, but do such an incredibly shitty job that mech immediately falls apart.
Tanks can be steam rolled by mass immortals. EMP does not KILL immortals, you still have 200 HP to plow through all the while being up shot at with 50 dmg against armored while chargelot colossi eat away at your army.
Thors don't do shit cause chargelot surround pretty much wins that fight and no idiot will walk his colossi to get into 6 range of 250mm.
Even if you get your nice 10+ tank push going, you'll just get worn down by pure protoss macro as reinforcing mech is the slowest in the game even on even bases. All the while protoss get to do cute stuff like warp prism drop with chargelots, get you out of position for free and cower in fear as your unseiged tanks are steam rolled. Seriously you have mental issues if you think this is liable by any stretch of the imagination.
On December 15 2010 03:58 Goose- wrote: The biggest problem with terran imo is that they don't have a strong unit that is mobile unlike zerg and protoss.(collosus/ultra) This lack of mobility makes it almost impossible to win a macro game as you aren't able to defend your expo's nor do your reinforcements come in fast enough to kill your opponent in a big macro game. If let's say thor or bc were faster they would be viable and more terrans would use them. If they don't change this they should atleast add irradiate to ravens. Imo that's the only way terran could survive & even win a long macro game.
Btw, The fact that blizzard is about to nerf neural parasite is gonna make zergplay alot more boring too imo. So far blizzard's changes haven't really balanced the game but nerfed the players options. Imo they should keep neural parasite as it is, the only thing they should change is the fact that the units are stuck once it's casted. Basicly changing neural parasite into old school plague :p.
Terran is much slower than the other races, but if you want units the same speed and threat level as Colossus/Ultra- 3/3 Marauders with Medivacs. Seriously, 8 of these guys can break an expansion in less than a minute, which is about the same speed as Colossus/Ultra, and you cannot just fend them off with static defense. Marauders can outfight every Gateway unit in 1 on 1 combat using pure math when Stim'd, too.
8 Marauders and 2 Medivacs = 20 food. If the Terran sends 20 food worth of units to drop an expo, the Protoss just uses his main army to roflstomp whatever the Terran has defending his base, kills all his production structures, while warping in hts and zealots to defend the drop. Once a Terran loses his main army, it is almost impossible to come back as the reinforcing units get killed as they come out of the rax/factories while Protoss reinforcements get warped in at a different location.
I was commenting on his belief that while Protoss has Colossi and Zerg Ultralisks, Terrans have nothing that can quickly move around the map, taking down expansions and being a nuisance.
As to a drop on Protoss... Those warp-in HTs and Zealots cost 2 supply each, as well, and 8 Zealots won't beat 8 Stim'd Marauders, and 8 HTs are a joke by themselves. Even if he throws down a combination, he's dropping storms onto his own guys while you can kite with Stim and Concussive Shells, spread out because you only have 8 guys, and even if you just stand other the Storm, he'll still need a full 6.5 seconds to kill your Marauders. Your drop will tie up more or less equivalent supply's worth, and if he sends his 200/200 army at you and then warp in units to defend the drop as they die, you have ~20-30 seconds of free rein inside his base, with 8 stim'd Marauders you can drop his Templar Archives in that time, even if you have to run to it.
Protoss doesn't have all the perfect solutions, especially since if he warps in HTs he'll have to micro them just as much as you, and he has to check back in 5 seconds to get his warped in Zealots to A-Move at the very least, since you cannot queue attacking actions mid-warp.
It's still an even field if he decides to attack, except you have guys already in his base.
On December 15 2010 04:24 Scare_Crow wrote: [I was commenting on his belief that while Protoss has Colossi and Zerg Ultralisks, Terrans have nothing that can quickly move around the map, taking down expansions and being a nuisance.
I never said terran doesn't have anything to take down expansions, you just changed my words that way so they fit in your "marauders own everything without even microing them" statement.
I meant that bc & thor are too slow to defend your own expo's vs a smart zerg/toss. Once they arrived the expo is down and their army is gone. Meaning that you can only defend 1-2 expo's properly. This makes it quite hard to play a good macro game. While protoss can warp in alot of shit and zerg moves as the speed of light on creep :p.
On December 15 2010 00:22 Caphe wrote: Some very good points from posters above me. I want to add some more. As a Terran player: I noticed that recently Protoss players use HT way more and in the mix with Colossus, they are too deadly to any Terran army. Protoss ball late game is...scary.
Right now what I do is attack them in some small timing window hoping to criple them enough to gain an advantage and work from that.
Also, prevent Protoss from taking his 5th and 6th gas(3 base) is crucial. HT and colossus are very gas heavy. With the 6 gas or more, its too easy for Protoss to switch tech. One minute Protoss has alot of HT, and then in the next fight, he just has some more colossus and Terran is screw.
Maybe its time to introduce mech into Terran army vs Protoss. Bio with Ghost is now having a very difficult time.
Ghost-mech is the future end game.
I'd read the rest of your post, if you didn't open with a ghost-mech argument.
Ghost mech is true garbage, anyone with the intentions of meching will and deserves to lose outright anyway.
Hellions are garbage, their supposed to kill light units, but do such an incredibly shitty job that mech immediately falls apart.
Tanks can be steam rolled by mass immortals. EMP does not KILL immortals, you still have 200 HP to plow through all the while being up shot at with 50 dmg against armored while chargelot colossi eat away at your army.
Thors don't do shit cause chargelot surround pretty much wins that fight and no idiot will walk his colossi to get into 6 range of 250mm.
Even if you get your nice 10+ tank push going, you'll just get worn down by pure protoss macro as reinforcing mech is the slowest in the game even on even bases. All the while protoss get to do cute stuff like warp prism drop with chargelots, get you out of position for free and cower in fear as your unseiged tanks are steam rolled. Seriously you have mental issues if you think this is liable by any stretch of the imagination.
You know, Immortals take 10 more seconds and 100 more minerals to build than Tanks, coming out of a facility that uses the exact same mechanics as the Factory. A Warp Prism takes 50 seconds, and uses the same structure the Immortals are made from.
A Siege Tank's attack speed unsieged is 1.04, and it deals 25 vs Armored, an Immortal's is 2.5, dealing 50 damage. They both have 1 Armor. Assuming a Ghost EMPs the Immortal, a Tank can attack 9 times before an Immortal destroys it, and takes only 8 shots to kill an unshielded Immortal. The Tank also gets an extra shot before the Immortal enters range. So, uh... If you take Ghost Tank and put up the Immortals, the Tanks actually win in a straight up fight. Of course, you need the Ghost, but he's made from Barracks, so you'll still have the same number of Tanks vs Immortals, especially since 2 Ghosts' worth of EMPs is enough to blanket something like 24 Immortals, unless you're suggesting you will individually separate every one of them before you engage (in which case you're walking them into the Tanks' guns single file, and you lose anyway). But what if you catch them while they're Sieged? (Lol, trying to catch the Tanks sieged). You move at the speed of 2.25, which means your first Immortal will walk into range of the tank after 3.6 seconds of entering the Tanks' range. That means you fire your first shot 0.6 seconds after the Tanks have fired their SECOND. If that same balling Ghost is still hanging around and EMPs you before you enter range (with his EMP range of 4 greater than your attack range), you will die in 9 seconds to one Tank, while your Immortal needs 10 seconds (4 shots) to kill the Tank.
So mass Immortal is nowhere near a counter to mass Tanks, since with the massive range 13 and a Viking spotting, he is immune to your High Templar while sieged, which means his Ghosts can EMP you without any danger.
This is of course in a controlled environment, and only about Siege Tank v Immortal, but mech is in no way unviable. ALL mech might be pushing it, as you need anti-air, but Siege Tanks won't be rolled over by Immortals, Colossi, or HTs so long as Ghosts are with them.
The biggest thing is that while Protoss units can trade shots with Terran units any day, Terran units balance it out by always getting to shoot first.
You can quite easily convince yourself that everything is hopeless. This is how losing streaks happen and solidify. Too many terran posters in this thread have seemingly completely given up. You have pages of people arguing that Gateway Units > Rax Units (madness). People completely peeing on early ghosts, mech, etc. Such defeatism.
SC2 is an incredibly delicate game. The first thing bronze players learn is how these seemingly tiny things have immense consequences ("oh, I was just supply blocked a couple times for a little while, that doesn't really matter - my macro is still good").
I think that this thread is suffering from a lot of this, small adjustments can go a long way - more ghost usage mixed into terran play throughout the game is certainly undervalued and a huge asset.
Toss has some huge weaknesses, one of which is that it lacks the ability to run effective surgical strikes - and its units need to be grouped together to be most effective. That along with the rather large expense related to any sort of tech choice makes toss very inflexible - this is why people dont see a lot of warp prism use - toss units don't generally kick ass in small numbers, they need mixtures to be effective.
The utility of terran drops is pretty huge and certainly underdiscussed in this thread. That ghosts should be an absolutely standard component in mid or late game drops (both to emp defensive HTs or shields on toss buildings) is important. It's something small like that - like the inclusion of a single ghost in that dropship that could very well tip that game in your favor. Will it completely roflstomp all P? No. But it might just win you that one extra game, and its exactly those little advantages that add up.
There are a lot of issues like this, little things that tip the game in your favor. A lot of map specific improvements - putting a PF on the gold expansion on caverns for instance, this is a huge tool - and should be a primary goal for terran on this map (in pro games where terran can secure that gold with a well staffed PF - you almost never see terran lose - very rare) - especially when they add in that sensor tower (which you're seeing more and more of in pro level late game terran).
P is not a super invincible juggernaut of destruction. Focus on the strengths terran has, and how they can be abused against P's weaknesses and this thread (and your game) will improve. It's those little things that make the edge.
On December 15 2010 04:24 Scare_Crow wrote: [I was commenting on his belief that while Protoss has Colossi and Zerg Ultralisks, Terrans have nothing that can quickly move around the map, taking down expansions and being a nuisance.
I never said terran doesn't have anything to take down expansions, you just changed my words that way so they fit in your "marauders own everything without even microing them" statement.
You wanted a fast unit for macro games that allow you to defend expos and reinforce, I give you Marauders, which work quite well except against a very specific group of units, such as mass Cracklings and air units (which Colossi also do not work well against in a defensive position alone. If you're bringing Colossi with support units for a defense, that's your whole army).
They're made faster than both of the other units and can stand toe-to-toe against both Ultralisks and Colossi due to greater numbers and Stim Pack, I'm not sure what you're unhappy about. Do Marauders not work as a backbone unit that move at similar speeds to Colossi/Ultras that can defend expansions in a macro game as well as be used in an army?
I think the reason why air heavy terran play versus protoss is not quite viable is becuae terran doesn't have any fast air unit. On ground, Zerg has spdling/baneling; protoss has stalker(more mobility with blink), charge zealots and DT also have a stunning speed of 2.81 while terran has hellion and stimmed bio which is not bad. But in air, zerg has muta, protoss has pheonix, terran has nothing. Pheonix is not too bad at all, 10 dmg in 1.11 seconds compared to viking's 20 in 2 seconds, plus they can attack while moving which is good for sniping banshee and raven. I think banshee should be made faster, at leaster faster than stalker so they pose more threat to protoss early game, force protoss to get a few pheonix or set up some canons which delays protoss macro a bit. This way protoss can't freely, or at least without any risk, to do the very safe standard 3-step game : fast expand, defend some bio pressure with good ff or some immortal mix, and win the late game.
On December 15 2010 00:22 Caphe wrote: Some very good points from posters above me. I want to add some more. As a Terran player: I noticed that recently Protoss players use HT way more and in the mix with Colossus, they are too deadly to any Terran army. Protoss ball late game is...scary.
Right now what I do is attack them in some small timing window hoping to criple them enough to gain an advantage and work from that.
Also, prevent Protoss from taking his 5th and 6th gas(3 base) is crucial. HT and colossus are very gas heavy. With the 6 gas or more, its too easy for Protoss to switch tech. One minute Protoss has alot of HT, and then in the next fight, he just has some more colossus and Terran is screw.
Maybe its time to introduce mech into Terran army vs Protoss. Bio with Ghost is now having a very difficult time.
Ghost-mech is the future end game.
I'd read the rest of your post, if you didn't open with a ghost-mech argument.
Ghost mech is true garbage, anyone with the intentions of meching will and deserves to lose outright anyway.
Hellions are garbage, their supposed to kill light units, but do such an incredibly shitty job that mech immediately falls apart.
Tanks can be steam rolled by mass immortals. EMP does not KILL immortals, you still have 200 HP to plow through all the while being up shot at with 50 dmg against armored while chargelot colossi eat away at your army.
Thors don't do shit cause chargelot surround pretty much wins that fight and no idiot will walk his colossi to get into 6 range of 250mm.
Even if you get your nice 10+ tank push going, you'll just get worn down by pure protoss macro as reinforcing mech is the slowest in the game even on even bases. All the while protoss get to do cute stuff like warp prism drop with chargelots, get you out of position for free and cower in fear as your unseiged tanks are steam rolled. Seriously you have mental issues if you think this is liable by any stretch of the imagination.
You know, Immortals take 10 more seconds and 100 more minerals to build than Tanks, coming out of a facility that uses the exact same mechanics as the Factory. A Warp Prism takes 50 seconds, and uses the same structure the Immortals are made from.
A Siege Tank's attack speed unsieged is 1.04, and it deals 25 vs Armored, an Immortal's is 2.5, dealing 50 damage. They both have 1 Armor. Assuming a Ghost EMPs the Immortal, a Tank can attack 9 times before an Immortal destroys it, and takes only 8 shots to kill an unshielded Immortal. The Tank also gets an extra shot before the Immortal enters range. So, uh... If you take Ghost Tank and put up the Immortals, the Tanks actually win in a straight up fight. Of course, you need the Ghost, but he's made from Barracks, so you'll still have the same number of Tanks vs Immortals, especially since 2 Ghosts' worth of EMPs is enough to blanket something like 24 Immortals, unless you're suggesting you will individually separate every one of them before you engage (in which case you're walking them into the Tanks' guns single file, and you lose anyway). But what if you catch them while they're Sieged? (Lol, trying to catch the Tanks sieged). You move at the speed of 2.25, which means your first Immortal will walk into range of the tank after 3.6 seconds of entering the Tanks' range. That means you fire your first shot 0.6 seconds after the Tanks have fired their SECOND. If that same balling Ghost is still hanging around and EMPs you before you enter range (with his EMP range of 4 greater than your attack range), you will die in 9 seconds to one Tank, while your Immortal needs 10 seconds (4 shots) to kill the Tank.
So mass Immortal is nowhere near a counter to mass Tanks, since with the massive range 13 and a Viking spotting, he is immune to your High Templar while sieged, which means his Ghosts can EMP you without any danger.
This is of course in a controlled environment, and only about Siege Tank v Immortal, but mech is in no way unviable. ALL mech might be pushing it, as you need anti-air, but Siege Tanks won't be rolled over by Immortals, Colossi, or HTs so long as Ghosts are with them.
The biggest thing is that while Protoss units can trade shots with Terran units any day, Terran units balance it out by always getting to shoot first.
Mass immortal plus mass chargelot colossi tech, you won't have enough. Hellions do shit to deter anything from surrounding your tanks. Even if you get the first shots off, zealots tank damage so well that it won't matter. And this is all the while microing your tanks to fire at the correct targets(avoid friendly splash damage), landing perfect EMPs and making sure nothing else is trying to kill you toss in stargate units and templar tech for giggles.
I'm not talking pure immortal, but if you invest more into immortals than colossi/stalker, you'll pretty much 1a mech EMPs and all. Believe me I thought ghostmech was a oh so fabulous idea, but you're dead wrong thinking you can get away with it. Not to mention theres no pressure made with ghostmech. You can do your cute hellion harass but warpgate and some smart probe spreading protoss is fine.
And the final truth: 200/200 ghostmech is not stronger than 200/200 protoss army. Period. So your strategy is flawed from the get go. 200/200 mech in BW was stronger than protoss 200/200. But protoss was able to reinforce much faster than terran mech. But guess what? Now protoss can reinforce even faster even stronger than in BW. Terran mech still remains the same sluggish style minus units that actually did any real damage to air.
Not to mention you're not addressing tons of timing pushes you can die to while trying to transition to ghostmech.
On December 15 2010 04:50 paradisefar wrote: I think the reason why air heavy terran play versus protoss is not quite viable is becuae terran doesn't have any fast air unit. On ground, Zerg has spdling/baneling; protoss has stalker(more mobility with blink), charge zealots and ht also have a stunning speed of 2.81 while terran has hellion and stimmed bio which is not bad. But in air, zerg has muta, protoss has pheonix, terran has nothing. Pheonix is not too bad at all, 10 dmg in 1.11 seconds compared to viking's 20 in 2 seconds, plus they can attack while moving which is good for sniping banshee and raven. I think banshee should be made faster, at leaster faster than stalker so they pose more threat to protoss early game, force protoss to get a few pheonix or set up some canons which delays protoss macro a bit. This way protoss can't freely, or at least without any risk, to do the very safe standard 3-step game : fast expand, defend some bio pressure with good ff or some immortal mix, and win the late game.
I'm quite sure that the banshee is already the fear of all protoss. Making it faster would make me as a protoss player cry. And come-on, who are we kidding, ht's are not fast and chargelots are only fast if they have something to charge.
On December 15 2010 03:58 Goose- wrote: The biggest problem with terran imo is that they don't have a strong unit that is mobile unlike zerg and protoss.(collosus/ultra) This lack of mobility makes it almost impossible to win a macro game as you aren't able to defend your expo's nor do your reinforcements come in fast enough to kill your opponent in a big macro game. If let's say thor or bc were faster they would be viable and more terrans would use them. If they don't change this they should atleast add irradiate to ravens. Imo that's the only way terran could survive & even win a long macro game.
Btw, The fact that blizzard is about to nerf neural parasite is gonna make zergplay alot more boring too imo. So far blizzard's changes haven't really balanced the game but nerfed the players options. Imo they should keep neural parasite as it is, the only thing they should change is the fact that the units are stuck once it's casted. Basicly changing neural parasite into old school plague :p.
Terran is much slower than the other races, but if you want units the same speed and threat level as Colossus/Ultra- 3/3 Marauders with Medivacs. Seriously, 8 of these guys can break an expansion in less than a minute, which is about the same speed as Colossus/Ultra, and you cannot just fend them off with static defense. Marauders can outfight every Gateway unit in 1 on 1 combat using pure math when Stim'd, too.
8 Marauders and 2 Medivacs = 20 food. If the Terran sends 20 food worth of units to drop an expo, the Protoss just uses his main army to roflstomp whatever the Terran has defending his base, kills all his production structures, while warping in hts and zealots to defend the drop. Once a Terran loses his main army, it is almost impossible to come back as the reinforcing units get killed as they come out of the rax/factories while Protoss reinforcements get warped in at a different location.
I was commenting on his belief that while Protoss has Colossi and Zerg Ultralisks, Terrans have nothing that can quickly move around the map, taking down expansions and being a nuisance.
As to a drop on Protoss... Those warp-in HTs and Zealots cost 2 supply each, as well, and 8 Zealots won't beat 8 Stim'd Marauders, and 8 HTs are a joke by themselves. Even if he throws down a combination, he's dropping storms onto his own guys while you can kite with Stim and Concussive Shells, spread out because you only have 8 guys, and even if you just stand other the Storm, he'll still need a full 6.5 seconds to kill your Marauders. Your drop will tie up more or less equivalent supply's worth, and if he sends his 200/200 army at you and then warp in units to defend the drop as they die, you have ~20-30 seconds of free rein inside his base, with 8 stim'd Marauders you can drop his Templar Archives in that time, even if you have to run to it.
Protoss doesn't have all the perfect solutions, especially since if he warps in HTs he'll have to micro them just as much as you, and he has to check back in 5 seconds to get his warped in Zealots to A-Move at the very least, since you cannot queue attacking actions mid-warp.
It's still an even field if he decides to attack, except you have guys already in his base.
While Terran does have the option of a mobile dropping force, it is just not feasible to send away 20 food worth of units when there is a threat of a Protoss doom army at your front door. During the main fight, Terran has to spread units, emp, run from storms,while keeping vikings from being exposed in the front. It is virtually impossible to do all that while microing the drop force. Of course warping in to defend is impossible when the Protoss is already maxed out, but in that situation, anything short of a maxed out Terran army and 100% attention on micro will disappear along with all their buildings. At that point, it doesn't matter how much damage those 8 marauders can do.
On December 13 2010 23:48 TurtlePerson2 wrote: TvP is balanced in a strange way. Terran has the advantage until you reach the late game. If you let a Protoss player take a third base then you are dead.
Are people just making up numbers here? This thread is ridiculous. Stuff like Hellions aren't cost efficent (hitting 3 light targets, they are the most efficient dps Terran unit), or Templar moving 2.81 (they move 1.875), Immortal attack cooldown in 1.45 not 2.5. All this complaining and misinformation . . . this thread should just be closed.
I'd like to bring up another detail that hasn't been discussed: Terran's dependence on unit specific upgrade.
I feel that this is greatly hindering tech switches. Whenever infantry is discussed, concussive shells and stim (and usually shield) are included as a given. Sure.. no Terran in his right mind would use bio without getting those upgrades ASAP, but for the record I'd like to say, that without slow and stim gateway units would crush marine marauder.
The same is true for tanks. Without siege, they are 100 gas marauders. Hellions without blue flame don't cut it in any fight and can only be used in sneaky drops to one shot workers.
So transitioning from bio to mech comes with two extra costs: 1) The resources sunk into bio upgrades 2) The extra time before you have researched the needed upgrades
On the toss side, only colossi and HT have such a mission critical upgrade and one could argue even the case of the colossus, as it's role of splash DPS can also be done with range 6 and extra care (as long as there are no vikings).
On December 15 2010 05:08 Darkstar_X wrote: Are people just making up numbers here? This thread is ridiculous. Stuff like Hellions aren't cost efficent (hitting 3 light targets, they are the most efficient dps Terran unit), or Templar moving 2.81 (they move 1.875), Immortal attack cooldown in 1.45 not 2.5. All this complaining and misinformation . . . this thread should just be closed.
Guess what? Those are just numbers. Sure you're blue flame will kill those chargelots and speedlings in a nice 1a line the first shot. Then you'll be surrounded. You're great splash damage will become shit just like magic box mutas vs thors. Practicality, not numbers.
On December 15 2010 05:08 Darkstar_X wrote: Are people just making up numbers here? This thread is ridiculous. Stuff like Hellions aren't cost efficent (hitting 3 light targets, they are the most efficient dps Terran unit), or Templar moving 2.81 (they move 1.875), Immortal attack cooldown in 1.45 not 2.5. All this complaining and misinformation . . . this thread should just be closed.
Sorry guys, typo, lol, changed it , it's DT that has 2.81 speed not ht.
That's why spread dt works so well, at least much better than banshee. I know it might not be a good idea to compare these two units on equal ground but let's just state the facts for the sake of it:
detector: canon>>turret(because turret can not attack dt) observer(50, 100)>banshee(100,200) observer(50,100)>> scan(270 mineral, multiple of this if DT's not in one place which is usually the case)
dt just has absurd high dps, they one shot marin or scv. wonder what people think of dt in pvp?
one answer to storm is to EMP the protoss ball, then stop-move micro your army into the protoss army... any storms will obliterate his units as well as yours and he loses his advantage.
you also want tanks for the insane splash dps and range.
running away from storm is a terrible idea... losing 80% of your army hp is almost as bad as losing 80% of your unit count.
btw - battlecruiser without yamato/enough energy for yamato is terribad. they're just far too expensive and slow, i can't see why you'd ever pick them over banshee. 3 banshee's are far more fearsome than 1 battlecruiser.
Well, I have enough of it. I lose every battle I do against P (please don't say that raxunits > gateway units, because in my expieriece that's not true at all) and when I enter lategame there is nothing to transition. I open tanks + MMM. Then I tried to transition into: mass banshee + tanks + vikings / thors and tanks, etc. Nothing works and at the end I just die. I am not an allin player. I prefer macrogames. If blizzard doesn't change a thing about terran, then I don't know if I will continue playing with them.
@OP: Idk if you are still following this thread but I'll go ahead and post my TvP style since a lot of my fellow Terrans are having issues. I have found a lot of success with this style upto 2.2k diamond. Bio sucks late game and mech is very hard to get up to critical numbers. Even if you do get mech up to critical numbers, it is a pretty fragile composition and quite immobile. Starport on the other hand (or 'Sky Terran' as Artosis calls it) has shown to be very promising in this matchup for a number of reasons -
1) Cloak banshees force robo which is weak against air. 2) Cloak banshee+raven+viking force many observers and eat up production time of colo+immortal 3) Deals with the colossus by diminishing its role. 4) The maps are small with many chokes. A 200/200 ground army will rarely all fire together. Along with FFs almost always half of the ground units are glitching out behind the other half. Air units can however stack up and fights along with the smaller ground support force with all 200/200 dealing dps at the same time. Toss has no air splash so stacking is very effective.
I open 111 cloak banshee into expand. Then put down another rax and another starport. Pump out bio off 2 raxes (1 with techlab and 1 with reactor). Get a Raven and medivac early for building up energy and devote rest of production to banshees with some vikings (if colo/phoenix are scouted). This is really effective against pretty much anything the toss has before templar tech. You can safely take a third with this composition and then tech to BCs/Thors/Ghosts, whatever you feel will be best for dealing with Templar. Late game I also add a lot of raxes for very quick production of ground support. This makes the ground army expendable to storms and as long as air survives and hits critical mass I roll over toss completely. Its a good late game composition that forces toss to go stargate and templar, an expensive combination which forces toss to fight for a large number of bases. The midgame becomes a lot more manageable with starpart tech > robo tech which toss had to open with for cloak banshees. If toss goes robo into templar off 2 bases, your mid game banshee raven viking+bio push should kill him. Toss needs to fight for a third off robo/stargate tech and then transition into templars. Most importantly, you have a roflstomping air fleet of viking, BCs and banshees with marine medivac support. Once your air hits critical mass, if toss doesnt have the specific counters in place, he should get completely rolled.
Ghost needs to fucking walk 1 at time while your warped-in templars storm and feedback just about everything in 5 seconds..
Doesnt sound balanced to me comparing to ghosts..
Dont terrans have the best dropships??? Arent ghost great at HT sniping and can even cloak??
I rarely see any Terran use ghosts with medivacs. You dont need to walk them, Drop them beside the army and kill those HT. Ghost are so imba against Protoss that it isnt even funny. The whole EMP vs Storm battle is so T favoured that i just dont know how you can complain. You just arent used to having to micro so much in battles.
BTW: Storm is only really op if you go heavy marines. Arent you expected to be owned hard if you just mass the same basic unit all game?
Yes I actually thinking of just GG each time I get Protoss now - playing vs them just removes the enjoyment for the game. And Blizzard is thinking of boosting them? Are we even playing the same game?
Even if mass drop spread out MMM is viable and balanced (It is not on my level but whatever) it is still boring and not how I wish to play a RTS.
TvT is beautiful and strategic. TvP is boring and one-dimensional.
On December 15 2010 05:08 Darkstar_X wrote: Are people just making up numbers here? This thread is ridiculous. Stuff like Hellions aren't cost efficent (hitting 3 light targets, they are the most efficient dps Terran unit), or Templar moving 2.81 (they move 1.875), Immortal attack cooldown in 1.45 not 2.5. All this complaining and misinformation . . . this thread should just be closed.
Sorry guys, typo, lol, changed it , it's DT that has 2.81 speed not ht.
That's why spread dt works so well, at least much better than banshee. I know it might not be a good idea to compare these two units on equal ground but let's just state the facts for the sake of it:
detector cost: canon>>turret(because turret can not attack dt) observer(50, 100)>banshee(100,200) observer(50,100)> scan(270 mineral, multiple of this if DT's not in one place which is usually the case)
dt just has absurd high dps, they one shot marin or scv. wonder what people think of dt in pvp?
i spilled my coffee laughing at this hilarious comparisation between dts and flying dts also the detector comparisation is quite hilarious
Ghost needs to fucking walk 1 at time while your warped-in templars storm and feedback just about everything in 5 seconds..
Doesnt sound balanced to me comparing to ghosts..
Dont terrans have the best dropships??? Arent ghost great at HT sniping and can even cloak??
I rarely see any Terran use ghosts with medivacs. You dont need to walk them, Drop them beside the army and kill those HT. Ghost are so imba against Protoss that it isnt even funny. The whole EMP vs Storm battle is so T favoured that i just dont know how you can complain. You just arent used to having to micro so much in battles.
BTW: Storm is only really op if you go heavy marines. Arent you expected to be owned hard if you just mass the same basic unit all game?
Oh don't worry about medivacs cause I think those templars also got that there feedback. Oh yeah those stalkers by the way, they shoot up. Oh yeah and lets not forget medivacs are target priority for most unit AIs. Oh yeah lets not forget the fact that you'd be throwing away 400 minerals and 400 gas if you put 2 ghosts into a medivac. A medivac that will die and not heal anything and ghosts that will EMP templar, watch them morph into archons and die as more templar are warped in ANYWAY.
On December 15 2010 00:22 Caphe wrote: Some very good points from posters above me. I want to add some more. As a Terran player: I noticed that recently Protoss players use HT way more and in the mix with Colossus, they are too deadly to any Terran army. Protoss ball late game is...scary.
Right now what I do is attack them in some small timing window hoping to criple them enough to gain an advantage and work from that.
Also, prevent Protoss from taking his 5th and 6th gas(3 base) is crucial. HT and colossus are very gas heavy. With the 6 gas or more, its too easy for Protoss to switch tech. One minute Protoss has alot of HT, and then in the next fight, he just has some more colossus and Terran is screw.
Maybe its time to introduce mech into Terran army vs Protoss. Bio with Ghost is now having a very difficult time.
Ghost-mech is the future end game.
I'd read the rest of your post, if you didn't open with a ghost-mech argument.
Ghost mech is true garbage, anyone with the intentions of meching will and deserves to lose outright anyway.
Hellions are garbage, their supposed to kill light units, but do such an incredibly shitty job that mech immediately falls apart.
Tanks can be steam rolled by mass immortals. EMP does not KILL immortals, you still have 200 HP to plow through all the while being up shot at with 50 dmg against armored while chargelot colossi eat away at your army.
Thors don't do shit cause chargelot surround pretty much wins that fight and no idiot will walk his colossi to get into 6 range of 250mm.
Even if you get your nice 10+ tank push going, you'll just get worn down by pure protoss macro as reinforcing mech is the slowest in the game even on even bases. All the while protoss get to do cute stuff like warp prism drop with chargelots, get you out of position for free and cower in fear as your unseiged tanks are steam rolled. Seriously you have mental issues if you think this is liable by any stretch of the imagination.
You know, Immortals take 10 more seconds and 100 more minerals to build than Tanks, coming out of a facility that uses the exact same mechanics as the Factory. A Warp Prism takes 50 seconds, and uses the same structure the Immortals are made from.
A Siege Tank's attack speed unsieged is 1.04, and it deals 25 vs Armored, an Immortal's is 2.5, dealing 50 damage. They both have 1 Armor. Assuming a Ghost EMPs the Immortal, a Tank can attack 9 times before an Immortal destroys it, and takes only 8 shots to kill an unshielded Immortal. The Tank also gets an extra shot before the Immortal enters range. So, uh... If you take Ghost Tank and put up the Immortals, the Tanks actually win in a straight up fight. Of course, you need the Ghost, but he's made from Barracks, so you'll still have the same number of Tanks vs Immortals, especially since 2 Ghosts' worth of EMPs is enough to blanket something like 24 Immortals, unless you're suggesting you will individually separate every one of them before you engage (in which case you're walking them into the Tanks' guns single file, and you lose anyway). But what if you catch them while they're Sieged? (Lol, trying to catch the Tanks sieged). You move at the speed of 2.25, which means your first Immortal will walk into range of the tank after 3.6 seconds of entering the Tanks' range. That means you fire your first shot 0.6 seconds after the Tanks have fired their SECOND. If that same balling Ghost is still hanging around and EMPs you before you enter range (with his EMP range of 4 greater than your attack range), you will die in 9 seconds to one Tank, while your Immortal needs 10 seconds (4 shots) to kill the Tank.
So mass Immortal is nowhere near a counter to mass Tanks, since with the massive range 13 and a Viking spotting, he is immune to your High Templar while sieged, which means his Ghosts can EMP you without any danger.
This is of course in a controlled environment, and only about Siege Tank v Immortal, but mech is in no way unviable. ALL mech might be pushing it, as you need anti-air, but Siege Tanks won't be rolled over by Immortals, Colossi, or HTs so long as Ghosts are with them.
The biggest thing is that while Protoss units can trade shots with Terran units any day, Terran units balance it out by always getting to shoot first.
Eh, disregarding the rest of your theorycrafting, Immortal attack speed is 1.44 or 1.45, comparable to stalkers or unstimmed Marauders.
On December 15 2010 03:48 Scare_Crow wrote: You know, I was just watching day9's newest Funday Monday about BC rushes for the giggles, and I noticed something really crazy: they're getting out their first BC at 8:30.
Holy balls, how many Protoss builds can handle a BC/Marine push at 9 minutes?
Okay, probably quite a few builds, but it's still eye-opening how obscenely fast you can start slapping down BCs. I think I'll go off on a losing streak against Protoss to try to somehow make fast air.
I actually already have a BO that can get a bcruiser out at 7:30 + some helions and marines ready
Ghost needs to fucking walk 1 at time while your warped-in templars storm and feedback just about everything in 5 seconds..
Doesnt sound balanced to me comparing to ghosts..
Dont terrans have the best dropships??? Arent ghost great at HT sniping and can even cloak??
I rarely see any Terran use ghosts with medivacs. You dont need to walk them, Drop them beside the army and kill those HT. Ghost are so imba against Protoss that it isnt even funny. The whole EMP vs Storm battle is so T favoured that i just dont know how you can complain. You just arent used to having to micro so much in battles.
BTW: Storm is only really op if you go heavy marines. Arent you expected to be owned hard if you just mass the same basic unit all game?
Oh don't worry about medivacs cause I think those templars also got that there feedback. Oh yeah those stalkers by the way, they shoot up. Oh yeah and lets not forget medivacs are target priority for most unit AIs. Oh yeah lets not forget the fact that you'd be throwing away 400 minerals and 400 gas if you put 2 ghosts into a medivac. A medivac that will die and not heal anything and ghosts that will EMP templar, watch them morph into archons and die as more templar are warped in ANYWAY.
Cause you know HT have all the energy in the world. They can storm and feeback and ofc that feeback destroys the medivac. LOL
Try to flank with 1 dropship of medivac snipers and ull see how powerfull it is to not 1a all units together but actually know wtf is going on with your most priceless unit. And do you know that stalkers cant shoot to all places at once?
Btw do you know u got more than just EMP right? SNIPE is also a skill! Ofc i see you forget ghosts can attack.... how silly of you
The amount of whining in this thread is ridonculous! And the theorycrafting is beyond applicable.
Yes protoss are super strong late game; if you allow them to macro to HTs+storm with amulet or mass collossus with mass upgrades etc, it's going to be gg. That isn't a QQ, that isn't a balance whine - It's an element of the match up you need to consider - yes ghosts can snipe, yes HTs can feedback and archon morph; congratulations.
Jinro vs Socke at MLG (think it was this game) was one of the rare examples of a Terran beating a late game protoss; maybe watch those replays for some better insight
On December 15 2010 05:08 Darkstar_X wrote: Are people just making up numbers here? This thread is ridiculous. Stuff like Hellions aren't cost efficent (hitting 3 light targets, they are the most efficient dps Terran unit), or Templar moving 2.81 (they move 1.875), Immortal attack cooldown in 1.45 not 2.5. All this complaining and misinformation . . . this thread should just be closed.
Sorry guys, typo, lol, changed it , it's DT that has 2.81 speed not ht.
That's why spread dt works so well, at least much better than banshee. I know it might not be a good idea to compare these two units on equal ground but let's just state the facts for the sake of it:
detector cost: canon>>turret(because turret can not attack dt) observer(50, 100)>banshee(100,200) observer(50,100)> scan(270 mineral, multiple of this if DT's not in one place which is usually the case)
dt just has absurd high dps, they one shot marin or scv. wonder what people think of dt in pvp?
i spilled my coffee laughing at this hilarious comparisation between dts and flying dts also the detector comparisation is quite hilarious
Please don't ridicule yourself and please make your point clear, I said it's for the sake of stating the facts in this dt/banshee context. bashee does not equal to flying dt, tell me how you can warp in a banshee anywhere on the map. I just don't think that one flying ability outweighs all the other advantages dt has.
Ghost needs to fucking walk 1 at time while your warped-in templars storm and feedback just about everything in 5 seconds..
Doesnt sound balanced to me comparing to ghosts..
Dont terrans have the best dropships??? Arent ghost great at HT sniping and can even cloak??
I rarely see any Terran use ghosts with medivacs. You dont need to walk them, Drop them beside the army and kill those HT. Ghost are so imba against Protoss that it isnt even funny. The whole EMP vs Storm battle is so T favoured that i just dont know how you can complain. You just arent used to having to micro so much in battles.
BTW: Storm is only really op if you go heavy marines. Arent you expected to be owned hard if you just mass the same basic unit all game?
Oh don't worry about medivacs cause I think those templars also got that there feedback. Oh yeah those stalkers by the way, they shoot up. Oh yeah and lets not forget medivacs are target priority for most unit AIs. Oh yeah lets not forget the fact that you'd be throwing away 400 minerals and 400 gas if you put 2 ghosts into a medivac. A medivac that will die and not heal anything and ghosts that will EMP templar, watch them morph into archons and die as more templar are warped in ANYWAY.
Cause you know HT have all the energy in the world. They can storm and feeback and ofc that feeback destroys the medivac. LOL
Try to flank with 1 dropship of medivac snipers and ull see how powerfull it is to not 1a all units together but actually know wtf is going on with your most priceless unit. And do you know that stalkers cant shoot to all places at once?
Btw do you know u got more than just EMP right? SNIPE is also a skill! Ofc i see you forget ghosts can attack.... how silly of you
Oh true cause protoss is oh so blind to oh so cute medivac flanking. That risking a medivac into the frey(map dependent for positioning). Cause protoss will kindly let you do as you please when observers are on lunch break or something. Like templar can't defend themselves?
Even if you manage cute cloak+snipe play, that means waiting for ghosts to have enough energy to do such maneuvers while protoss don't give a shit. They wait 15 seconds after a templar warp in and gogogo. All the while your army needs to not die while minimizing energy usage.
damn those protoss that use mass sentry, colossus, ht, observers and sometimes even phoenix(read it in another thread) to kill my marines. I mean all these units are gas heavy but they just spam them like mad. killed/emped some hts? No problem just warp in 8 more hts, i mean every good player has 1200 gas in bank all the time while spamming sentries, colossus, observers, stalker and phoenix/voidrays.
Ghost needs to fucking walk 1 at time while your warped-in templars storm and feedback just about everything in 5 seconds..
Doesnt sound balanced to me comparing to ghosts..
Dont terrans have the best dropships??? Arent ghost great at HT sniping and can even cloak??
I rarely see any Terran use ghosts with medivacs. You dont need to walk them, Drop them beside the army and kill those HT. Ghost are so imba against Protoss that it isnt even funny. The whole EMP vs Storm battle is so T favoured that i just dont know how you can complain. You just arent used to having to micro so much in battles.
BTW: Storm is only really op if you go heavy marines. Arent you expected to be owned hard if you just mass the same basic unit all game?
Oh don't worry about medivacs cause I think those templars also got that there feedback. Oh yeah those stalkers by the way, they shoot up. Oh yeah and lets not forget medivacs are target priority for most unit AIs. Oh yeah lets not forget the fact that you'd be throwing away 400 minerals and 400 gas if you put 2 ghosts into a medivac. A medivac that will die and not heal anything and ghosts that will EMP templar, watch them morph into archons and die as more templar are warped in ANYWAY.
Cause you know HT have all the energy in the world. They can storm and feeback and ofc that feeback destroys the medivac. LOL
Try to flank with 1 dropship of medivac snipers and ull see how powerfull it is to not 1a all units together but actually know wtf is going on with your most priceless unit. And do you know that stalkers cant shoot to all places at once?
Btw do you know u got more than just EMP right? SNIPE is also a skill! Ofc i see you forget ghosts can attack.... how silly of you
Lol, protoss who think they have to micro more than terran is just facepalm, also i think that terran know how to use their units more than a random protoss player does. The fact is ht DO have all the energy in the world when they have the amulet because tbh in any battle they will all die if u lose right? but generally survive if u win. So that one storm they get is all they need for 1 fight and if u win, they start regening energy :O.
Also your comment about snipe is quite hilarious, the apm requiremtn for using all your energy before your fedback or just outright killed is insane, all the while you have to stim and stutter step mmm and move your vikings into collosi and if u have a raven drop a pdd before its fedback. All that in about a second is super easy to do rite?
Currently after protoss have the amulet they can warp in t3 units anywhere on the map, they also have the ability to win most encounters with a simple 1a, then storm key :S think is e and then click about in a random manner :S
Yes there are thing that terran could do to give them an advantage but they are already doing so much just to stay on par with the protoss. The fact is terran doesnt have a comparable t3 unit that can be build in the barracks, so as we need mmm to survive early game its nonsensicle to switch from it later on especially as it does well. Its like saying protoss should just stop using warp gates once they have collosi out, it just doesnt happen.
Also one last thing
BTW: Storm is only really op if you go heavy marines. Arent you expected to be owned hard if you just mass the same basic unit all game?
Last time i checked mass zealot was pretty darn good against pretty much all terran things aside from banshees and bcs for obvious reasons.
The biggest problem I see with TvP lategame is the lack of viability of mech in a straight up fight. It is simply impossible with the way Tanks work now (no overkill) to make Tanks good enough agasint beefy Protoss units without making them way too strong against Zerg.
Terrans respond to this by sticking heavily on Bio at all stages of the game. And once High Templar and Collosi are both out, Terran is simply going to die if they're Bio heavy. Nothing imbalanced about that IMO, as it is the ultimate endgame response to a Bio army.
One thing most Terrans HAVEN'T been trying (thank god) is heavy Starport play. I think I remember seeing someone mention SkyTerran earlier. A mass Banshee/Raven (like, 4 Ports-2/3Rax) midgame with a few Vikings to snipe obs is EXTREMELY obnoxious to deal with.
I have a very strong feeling that the recent Protoss buffs (Phoenix build time decrease and Obs cost decrease) had alot to do with Blizzard inhouse testing of mass Terran air builds in TvP.
Mass Terran air completely shuts down Collosus tech, so one of your two nemesis has been eliminated. It either forces Stargate, which delays Templar (AoE) and makes your Bio more effective into the lategame. Or it forces a Templar response for Storm, which has a severe mobility disadvantage to your air army, opens up harrassment opportunities and gives you map control to expand, and can be countered with Ghosts.
I don't know the timings too well because I don't play Terran, but it seems like off of a 2Rax FE you should be able to defend pretty well with Bunkers until you get your Starports rolling.
As a macro-based player I personally feel that after a certain point in the game (usually when both have 3 bases) there is nothing I can do to hurt the protoss. In a full out engagement even with ghosts/MMM and tanks/ravens/vikings or something mixed in I lose and bad. I am constantly reinforcing my army at my base, it's something that I just try to focus on since I am never confident in a frontal confrontation with a protoss late-game.
The combination of collosus + templars just makes my army melt away. I've tried using higher-tier units but they just get eaten alive by gateway units and suffer from the exact same problem that MMM has vs protoss that I cannot do enough AoE damage/dps to hurt the protoss enough to gain a solid footing.
What "sorta" works is constantly dropping on both expansions and main to take out buildings but that is only good if they are not producing units and have that critical amount of collosus to just storm your base. I really really really wish that terran late-game units were actually good late-game. Thors may be overpowered early on but vs toss later on they just disapear to immortals or zealots. MM may be good early-mid game but it just melts away regardless of upgrades/support and that's not even bringing up force fields in battle. It's very very frustrating that if you can't cripple the protoss early on and gain a solid advantage then you don't even get to fight them later on.
I have found that marines serve more of a special role in TvP, as I had lots of trouble against toss when the core of my army was marines. as many have pointed out, collo and templar eat marines for breakfast, however maurauders fare far better agasint these units, I usually do a standard 3 rax build, only i build 3 techlabs instead of 2 and a reactor so i can pump marauders if i see hes going a standard ground build.
if they go void rays or pheonix, then marines are good.
It takes a bit of micro to kite zealots+storms, and stim to pick of the collossus, and if you dont have your raxes hotkeyed you will probobly not be able to rebuild fast enough.
I also have found that building an extra OC is super super helpful, extra MULEs allow one to mega rax if they feel like it, if the toss sticks to gateway units.
also, if you get your gas at the standard timing, you can usualy afford to get good upgrades going.
I think alot of T kinda get stuck on the marine which lets them down to AoE attacks. The maurader is a better core unit, it just lives so much longer and can fight nearly anything the toss has on the ground. its hard counter to stalkers, and a soft counter to zealots and collo, depending on how well your micro is.
this might be common knowledge, but I think its good advice non the less
just saw game qxc vs minigun lategame ghost,bc, marauder, banshee thor, vikings got completly stomped by toss death ball wasnt even close, everything evaporated despite of emp which hit every fucking ht, this matchup makes me sad
On December 15 2010 10:37 donkkk wrote: just saw game qxc vs minigun lategame ghost,bc, marauder, banshee thor, vikings got completly stomped by toss death ball wasnt even close, everything evaporated despite of emp which hit every fucking ht, this matchup makes me sad
So you're saying a huge menagerie of strong units got beaten by a more homogenous group?? get out of town
On December 15 2010 10:37 donkkk wrote: just saw game qxc vs minigun lategame ghost,bc, marauder, banshee thor, vikings got completly stomped by toss death ball wasnt even close, everything evaporated despite of emp which hit every fucking ht, this matchup makes me sad
So you're saying a huge menagerie of strong units got beaten by a more homogenous group?? get out of town
i belive they both were maxed, and qxc had mix of best terran units which didnt metter at all because eveything evaporated without even touching toss ball its laughable its counter argument to every theorycrafter who says T should "transition", im asking to what?
On December 15 2010 10:37 donkkk wrote: just saw game qxc vs minigun lategame ghost,bc, marauder, banshee thor, vikings got completly stomped by toss death ball wasnt even close, everything evaporated despite of emp which hit every fucking ht, this matchup makes me sad
So you're saying a huge menagerie of strong units got beaten by a more homogenous group?? get out of town
i belive they both were maxed, and qxc had best mix of terran units which didnt metter at all because eveything evaporated without even touching toss ball its laughable its just arguement to every theorycrafter who says T should "transition".
I challenge the assertion that "a best mix of terran units" is one that dies instantly to anything.
On December 15 2010 10:37 donkkk wrote: just saw game qxc vs minigun lategame ghost,bc, marauder, banshee thor, vikings got completly stomped by toss death ball wasnt even close, everything evaporated despite of emp which hit every fucking ht, this matchup makes me sad
So you're saying a huge menagerie of strong units got beaten by a more homogenous group?? get out of town
i belive they both were maxed, and qxc had best mix of terran units which didnt metter at all because eveything evaporated without even touching toss ball its laughable its just arguement to every theorycrafter who says T should "transition".
I challenge the assertion that "a best mix of terran units" is one that dies instantly to anything.
well I wouldnt call P 200/200 death ball "anything" but lets face it T late game is a joke compered to other races.
hi wondering if anyone has any advice im a newbie SC player just got into gold a few days ago, i like how my TvT and TvZ are right now but against toss i've had a 0% win rate in the past few days since getting into gold and playing gold/plat protoss'. i've been trying to improve my macro and not going for cheesy builds but protoss has to the be the most infuriating race to play against, either you get cannon rushed, proxy gatewayed (if you ever forget the wounds caused by not scouting EVERYWHERE when you face toss) , 4 gate all inned or destroyed in the late game.
As i'm concentrating on improving my macro i've been using 1 rax FE and more recently 2 rax FE but because i'm using these builds and i'm not too confident in knowing when to attack i get smashed by toss in the late game. It's so hard especially for someone like me who isn't too experinced with picking off HT's or sniping collosus with vikings in the late game, i feel like a more early/mid game BO is worth practicing instead. Also i'm scared to commit to ghosts as my micro is pretty terrible besides my pretty basic marine marauder viking micro.
When people say terran has an advantage early game, and attribute that to marauder with conc shells, exactly how early are we talking?
I think I've won less than a handful of games by pushing early with a few marines and marauders. Like, I've had the most success with 1 rax at home and 1 proxied with a tech lab and attacking when I have the first marauder with conc out - if I want to do super early pressure, which I generally dislike doing.. But if the protoss player has a sentry out, you can just forget attacking. If he's good, you're not getting up that choke without having your army split in two and killed. And you don't want to gamble on the protoss player being bad and unable to click on his ramp.
On December 15 2010 10:37 donkkk wrote: just saw game qxc vs minigun lategame ghost,bc, marauder, banshee thor, vikings got completly stomped by toss death ball wasnt even close, everything evaporated despite of emp which hit every fucking ht, this matchup makes me sad
So you're saying a huge menagerie of strong units got beaten by a more homogenous group?? get out of town
i belive they both were maxed, and qxc had mix of best terran units which didnt metter at all because eveything evaporated without even touching toss ball its laughable its counter argument to every theorycrafter who says T should "transition", im asking to what?
i believe you are wrong; that was the problem - Mini was maxed where qxc was not and was playing catchup?
On December 15 2010 10:37 donkkk wrote: just saw game qxc vs minigun lategame ghost,bc, marauder, banshee thor, vikings got completly stomped by toss death ball wasnt even close, everything evaporated despite of emp which hit every fucking ht, this matchup makes me sad
this sounds like a lot of bull****. And it is no counterargument to anything untill you post a replay.
On December 15 2010 10:37 donkkk wrote: just saw game qxc vs minigun lategame ghost,bc, marauder, banshee thor, vikings got completly stomped by toss death ball wasnt even close, everything evaporated despite of emp which hit every fucking ht, this matchup makes me sad
So you're saying a huge menagerie of strong units got beaten by a more homogenous group?? get out of town
i belive they both were maxed, and qxc had mix of best terran units which didnt metter at all because eveything evaporated without even touching toss ball its laughable its counter argument to every theorycrafter who says T should "transition", im asking to what?
i believe you are wrong; that was the problem - Mini was maxed where qxc was not and was playing catchup?
yea and mini let him catch up they both split map and final battle looked like a joke
On December 15 2010 10:37 donkkk wrote: just saw game qxc vs minigun lategame ghost,bc, marauder, banshee thor, vikings got completly stomped by toss death ball wasnt even close, everything evaporated despite of emp which hit every fucking ht, this matchup makes me sad
this sounds like a lot of bull****. And it is no counterargument to anything untill you post a replay.
compere value to your army which add thor to colos, the 2nd one is great and basically melts every ground unit in range of 9, 1st one is yay i can stomp forcefields and move like a fucking snail, great .... Only "late" game unit which has potential is tank but blizzard ruined it with numerous nerfs their dmg is inefficient plus seems like half of toss units is made sorely to counter them (seriosuly wtf is with that), so here we are stuck with bio massing marauders (marines are abysmal after colo is out) because theres no other late game option. As for the replay i asked but no answer check http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=175160¤tpage=6 for vods.
On December 15 2010 10:37 donkkk wrote: just saw game qxc vs minigun lategame ghost,bc, marauder, banshee thor, vikings got completly stomped by toss death ball wasnt even close, everything evaporated despite of emp which hit every fucking ht, this matchup makes me sad
So you're saying a huge menagerie of strong units got beaten by a more homogenous group?? get out of town
i belive they both were maxed, and qxc had best mix of terran units which didnt metter at all because eveything evaporated without even touching toss ball its laughable its just arguement to every theorycrafter who says T should "transition".
I challenge the assertion that "a best mix of terran units" is one that dies instantly to anything.
well I wouldnt call P 200/200 death ball "anything" but lets face it T late game is a joke compered to other races.
Yeah, not like qxc managed to beat kiwikaki in lategame 3 times (heavy focus on thors and battlecruisers):
On December 15 2010 10:37 donkkk wrote: just saw game qxc vs minigun lategame ghost,bc, marauder, banshee thor, vikings got completly stomped by toss death ball wasnt even close, everything evaporated despite of emp which hit every fucking ht, this matchup makes me sad
this sounds like a lot of bull****. And it is no counterargument to anything untill you post a replay.
here you go http://www.root-gaming.com/replay/qxc-vs-mini-lost-temple it's not really BS. Qxc was all around the map. If you compare the micro needed for him and the toss player and the effeciency of the units it really makes you sad. But I think there were some tactical mistakes by qxc. He should have switched to banshee/BC and some vikings for observer hunting and proceed as he did. Scan, kill obs, make the enemy scream, retreat. He had room to transition after his massive drop play. Imho he should have traded his army exactly this way (drop play) and rebuild into more late tech units as he did agains kiwikaki. Btw this game showed that ghost is not sufficient as a counter to templar, due to the warp in, even if you emp and emp the warping templars he just warps more of them and you don't have enough ghost with you. And of course he can morph to archon right away, like seriously, this should be made it at least 5 energy so we don't get this kind of non-sense. Use emp and use 3 more? Disclaimer: I don't have problem with Toss and while in this situation it's kind of strong, else I find them ok.
So much bickering about late game. What about PainUsers lategame Thor Helion Banshee Viking vs Tyler at MLG which completely roflstomped Tylers Colossus/Templar...
For every replay you show with one side winning you can easily show another of the other doing the same i.e the above replays of KiwiKaki losing to QXC's lategame Terran. Tyler was right on the state of the game that people complain too much about balance than trying to improve themselves.
On December 15 2010 19:45 Dommk wrote: So much bickering about late game. What about PainUsers lategame Thor Helion Banshee Viking vs Tyler at MLG which completely roflstomped Tylers Colossus/Templar...
For every replay you show with one side winning you can easily show another of the other doing the same i.e the above replays of KiwiKaki losing to QXC's lategame Terran. Tyler was right on the state of the game that people complain too much about balance than trying to improve themselves.
Except Painuser did the same build on ladder and got rofl stomped. so yea.
The point people are trying to make in this thread is that late-game isn't "even" for the match-up. Terran has a lot of good units but ht warp-in on mineral lines is a pain.
On December 15 2010 19:45 Dommk wrote: So much bickering about late game. What about PainUsers lategame Thor Helion Banshee Viking vs Tyler at MLG which completely roflstomped Tylers Colossus/Templar...
For every replay you show with one side winning you can easily show another of the other doing the same i.e the above replays of KiwiKaki losing to QXC's lategame Terran. Tyler was right on the state of the game that people complain too much about balance than trying to improve themselves.
Except Painuser did the same build on ladder and got rofl stomped. so yea.
So your saying what worked one game didn't work in another completely different game?
On December 15 2010 19:45 Dommk wrote: So much bickering about late game. What about PainUsers lategame Thor Helion Banshee Viking vs Tyler at MLG which completely roflstomped Tylers Colossus/Templar...
For every replay you show with one side winning you can easily show another of the other doing the same i.e the above replays of KiwiKaki losing to QXC's lategame Terran. Tyler was right on the state of the game that people complain too much about balance than trying to improve themselves.
Except Painuser did the same build on ladder and got rofl stomped. so yea.
So your saying what worked one game didn't work in another completely different game?
/shock
no hes saying tyler didnt respond well to this build (which nony confiremed on sogt)
On December 15 2010 19:45 Dommk wrote: So much bickering about late game. What about PainUsers lategame Thor Helion Banshee Viking vs Tyler at MLG which completely roflstomped Tylers Colossus/Templar...
For every replay you show with one side winning you can easily show another of the other doing the same i.e the above replays of KiwiKaki losing to QXC's lategame Terran. Tyler was right on the state of the game that people complain too much about balance than trying to improve themselves.
Except Painuser did the same build on ladder and got rofl stomped. so yea.
So your saying what worked one game didn't work in another completely different game?
/shock
no hes saying tyler didnt respond well to this build (which nony confiremed on sogt)
So maybe, just maybe, QXC didn't respond to Mini's build as well as he did to Kiwikakis? Saying that QXC used X units and didn't win and showing only a single replay shows very little. Tyler at MLG had a great assortment of upgrades and lategame Toss tech but still got steam rolled, having units isn't the same as knowing what to do with them and knowing what you actually need.
On December 15 2010 19:45 Dommk wrote: So much bickering about late game. What about PainUsers lategame Thor Helion Banshee Viking vs Tyler at MLG which completely roflstomped Tylers Colossus/Templar...
For every replay you show with one side winning you can easily show another of the other doing the same i.e the above replays of KiwiKaki losing to QXC's lategame Terran. Tyler was right on the state of the game that people complain too much about balance than trying to improve themselves.
Except Painuser did the same build on ladder and got rofl stomped. so yea.
The point people are trying to make in this thread is that late-game isn't "even" for the match-up. Terran has a lot of good units but ht warp-in on mineral lines is a pain.
I think a large number of problems late game vs P (ht warp-in on mineral lines) can be solved with Sensor Towers.. I actually place ST at every expo (3rd, 4th) later in game, its just invaluable.. Combined with Planetary Fortress and few Missile Turrets, you are set to have a safe income..
I mean, there is a reason Blizzard implemented this structure to Terran arsenal and of course its not a good investment for early game. But the later the game goes, the more important it is to spot drop, warp-in or some sneaky movements around map..
don't worry, guys, just experiment more with those units. ghosts and medivacs and tanks have so much untapped potential. as well as medivacs and hellions. lately I've been going a lot of 2rax FE (select style) into 3rax 2 fact 1reactor starport for bio+tank+ghost+medivac/viking, getting all 4 gases real quick + taking a 3rd shortly afterwards. it's super ultra micro intensive having to control viking + emp + tank leapfrogging + medivac drops/movement + MMball stim & spread around those colossi heavy toss compositions but it's worth it. my unit control is atrocious and I've still been able to win most of my TvPs easily for the last week (against the same decent opponents) while I struggled so much with that massbio/medivac/viking against Ps with the worst macro ever.
now, i'm not saying that this is The unit composition or sth, just that there is still a lot of stuff to be tested. don't try and jump to conclusions about TvP yet, and please don't make blizzard change stuff ! let the game develop by itself, I think there's a lot to be seen in the upcoming months. for example, we haven't yet seen a lot of that passive terran style which some terrans try to play lately.
one thing, however, is for sure. late game TvP is friggin complex. it's macro heavy ofc, but with so many casters and funky units there are soo many tactical decisions to be made. I'm just a 2500 terran and I'm having a blast every time I play TvP. I just get the shivers when I think about the kind of matches we're about to see in the future when people's unit control gets better so they can make use of all the units, and not just forcefield micro, stalkercolossi balls or MMMG(V)
edit: forgot to comment on games. Servyoa vs MouzMana @ xelnaga - servoya made istakes in order to lose the game like that. it was just a terrible fight, sacrificing all of his tanks, not having emps or scans and clumping his units against 4-5 HTs. I'm not saying he's a bad player, and it is very very easy to make those mistakes in such a game. I'm just saying that he did and that's why he lost. had he played better after he had such a lead he could have easily won. it's easy to fall into that trap that as long as you have 30-40 food advantage you're going to win. in sc2 tvp however that's not true at all. one badly planned battle can decide the game just like it did
On December 15 2010 19:45 Dommk wrote: Tyler was right on the state of the game that people complain too much about balance than trying to improve themselves.
This is definitely right regarding the TvP lategame...also due to another major problem. Many TvPs enter lategame with P having "somewhat" an advantage, or at the very least not being very far behind. Why? Because P can NOT kill T that easily in mid-game as T can kill P. Especially if the terran has already managed to establish a PF, then the game will almost inevitably go into lategame because I just can't go and frickin kill off the other player. Notice that this is SUPPOSED to be that way, no balance-QQ here.
On the other hand, once T gets an advantage in midgame they just roflstomp all over my natural or even my main. Just a handful of marauders can snipe critical pylons in seconds, just 1-2 surviving banshees can severely decimate my mineral line. Compare this to 1-2 surviving phoenixes or a handful of stalkers....they do almost nothing to a properly constructed T-base. Therefore, once T manages to overwhelm the P in midgame, the game often ends, right there, right now. We could discuss if THIS is balanced, but I really don't want to here. All I wanna say is, that in many cases, where TvP "does" go in favor of the Terran earlier on, it doesn't even enter the lategame. Therefore, we don't see a terran using his mid-game advantage to win the game in the long run that often. If P, however, outplays T in midgame, the game WILL very often enter lategame and end with storms crippling T painfully. Notice that you can NOT argue balance out of those games, there's nothing imbalanced at all if a P uses his midgame advantage to overwhelm T in lategame.
You really need to carefully look for games, that enter the lategame on EVEN footing. And - now it gets tricky - since T has the advantage of MMM being > gateway units early on, "even footing" doesn't necessarily mean "equal bases". If P, for example, quickly techs to templars, then "even footing" would at least require T to be one base ahead. Like in BW, where it was considered to be perfectly normal for P to be ahead in bases, until T establishs its dominant tank position.
On December 15 2010 10:37 donkkk wrote: just saw game qxc vs minigun lategame ghost,bc, marauder, banshee thor, vikings got completly stomped by toss death ball wasnt even close, everything evaporated despite of emp which hit every fucking ht, this matchup makes me sad
this sounds like a lot of bull****. And it is no counterargument to anything untill you post a replay.
here you go http://www.root-gaming.com/replay/qxc-vs-mini-lost-temple it's not really BS. Qxc was all around the map. If you compare the micro needed for him and the toss player and the effeciency of the units it really makes you sad. But I think there were some tactical mistakes by qxc. He should have switched to banshee/BC and some vikings for observer hunting and proceed as he did. Scan, kill obs, make the enemy scream, retreat. He had room to transition after his massive drop play. Imho he should have traded his army exactly this way (drop play) and rebuild into more late tech units as he did agains kiwikaki. Btw this game showed that ghost is not sufficient as a counter to templar, due to the warp in, even if you emp and emp the warping templars he just warps more of them and you don't have enough ghost with you. And of course he can morph to archon right away, like seriously, this should be made it at least 5 energy so we don't get this kind of non-sense. Use emp and use 3 more? Disclaimer: I don't have problem with Toss and while in this situation it's kind of strong, else I find them ok.
So I call it BS when some dude says "just saw game qxc vs minigun lategame ghost,bc, marauder, banshee thor, vikings got completly stomped by toss death ball wasnt even close, everything evaporated despite of emp which hit every fucking ht" and then you link me a game where qxc didnt make a single bc,banshee or thor.
This game didnt show at all that ghost is not a sufficient counter to templars. The first battle at ~38:30 was MMM with some ghosts and some vikings vs mothership stalkers sentries chargelots hts 1 immortal and an archon. 7 out of 8 ht's were emped and qxc won the fight with a 40 food lead because of it.
The second fight at ~40:30 was MMM with 2 ghosts vs 5 ht's 2 carriers many chargelots. qxc emped the first 2 ht's, he missed his emp on the other 3 by a hair and he lost the fight.
The 3rd fight at ~44 was just really bad positioning by qxc. It was MMM with 9 ghosts and 16 vikings vs chargelots 7 carriers 9 hts and a mothership and 2 colossus. Qxc was attacked from a bad angle and his army was split up. Out of 9 hts only 2 storms hit the vikings. Qxc totally messed up his vikings by letting them stay in the storms and hitting interceptors and not the carriers/collossus.
In the end it was still ghost/MMM/vikings vs a critical amount of carriers/phoenix/mothership.
On December 15 2010 10:37 donkkk wrote: just saw game qxc vs minigun lategame ghost,bc, marauder, banshee thor, vikings got completly stomped by toss death ball wasnt even close, everything evaporated despite of emp which hit every fucking ht, this matchup makes me sad
this sounds like a lot of bull****. And it is no counterargument to anything untill you post a replay.
here you go http://www.root-gaming.com/replay/qxc-vs-mini-lost-temple it's not really BS. Qxc was all around the map. If you compare the micro needed for him and the toss player and the effeciency of the units it really makes you sad. But I think there were some tactical mistakes by qxc. He should have switched to banshee/BC and some vikings for observer hunting and proceed as he did. Scan, kill obs, make the enemy scream, retreat. He had room to transition after his massive drop play. Imho he should have traded his army exactly this way (drop play) and rebuild into more late tech units as he did agains kiwikaki. Btw this game showed that ghost is not sufficient as a counter to templar, due to the warp in, even if you emp and emp the warping templars he just warps more of them and you don't have enough ghost with you. And of course he can morph to archon right away, like seriously, this should be made it at least 5 energy so we don't get this kind of non-sense. Use emp and use 3 more? Disclaimer: I don't have problem with Toss and while in this situation it's kind of strong, else I find them ok.
So I call it BS when some dude says "just saw game qxc vs minigun lategame ghost,bc, marauder, banshee thor, vikings got completly stomped by toss death ball wasnt even close, everything evaporated despite of emp which hit every fucking ht" and then you link me a game where qxc didnt make a single bc,banshee or thor.
This game didnt show at all that ghost is not a sufficient counter to templars. The first battle at ~38:30 was MMM with some ghosts and some vikings vs mothership stalkers sentries chargelots hts 1 immortal and an archon. 7 out of 8 ht's were emped and qxc won the fight with a 40 food lead because of it.
The second fight at ~40:30 was MMM with 2 ghosts vs 5 ht's 2 carriers many chargelots. qxc emped the first 2 ht's, he missed his emp on the other 3 by a hair and he lost the fight.
The 3rd fight at ~44 was just really bad positioning by qxc. It was MMM with 9 ghosts and 16 vikings vs chargelots 7 carriers 9 hts and a mothership and 2 colossus. Qxc was attacked from a bad angle and his army was split up. Out of 9 hts only 2 storms hit the vikings. Qxc totally messed up his vikings by letting them stay in the storms and hitting interceptors and not the carriers/collossus.
In the end it was still ghost/MMM/vikings vs a critical amount of carriers/phoenix/mothership.
This match really wasnt decided by hts.
he linked different game, i gave my own link check it maybe vods are out yet
On December 15 2010 10:37 donkkk wrote: just saw game qxc vs minigun lategame ghost,bc, marauder, banshee thor, vikings got completly stomped by toss death ball wasnt even close, everything evaporated despite of emp which hit every fucking ht, this matchup makes me sad
this sounds like a lot of bull****. And it is no counterargument to anything untill you post a replay.
here you go http://www.root-gaming.com/replay/qxc-vs-mini-lost-temple it's not really BS. Qxc was all around the map. If you compare the micro needed for him and the toss player and the effeciency of the units it really makes you sad. But I think there were some tactical mistakes by qxc. He should have switched to banshee/BC and some vikings for observer hunting and proceed as he did. Scan, kill obs, make the enemy scream, retreat. He had room to transition after his massive drop play. Imho he should have traded his army exactly this way (drop play) and rebuild into more late tech units as he did agains kiwikaki. Btw this game showed that ghost is not sufficient as a counter to templar, due to the warp in, even if you emp and emp the warping templars he just warps more of them and you don't have enough ghost with you. And of course he can morph to archon right away, like seriously, this should be made it at least 5 energy so we don't get this kind of non-sense. Use emp and use 3 more? Disclaimer: I don't have problem with Toss and while in this situation it's kind of strong, else I find them ok.
So I call it BS when some dude says "just saw game qxc vs minigun lategame ghost,bc, marauder, banshee thor, vikings got completly stomped by toss death ball wasnt even close, everything evaporated despite of emp which hit every fucking ht" and then you link me a game where qxc didnt make a single bc,banshee or thor.
This game didnt show at all that ghost is not a sufficient counter to templars. The first battle at ~38:30 was MMM with some ghosts and some vikings vs mothership stalkers sentries chargelots hts 1 immortal and an archon. 7 out of 8 ht's were emped and qxc won the fight with a 40 food lead because of it.
The second fight at ~40:30 was MMM with 2 ghosts vs 5 ht's 2 carriers many chargelots. qxc emped the first 2 ht's, he missed his emp on the other 3 by a hair and he lost the fight.
The 3rd fight at ~44 was just really bad positioning by qxc. It was MMM with 9 ghosts and 16 vikings vs chargelots 7 carriers 9 hts and a mothership and 2 colossus. Qxc was attacked from a bad angle and his army was split up. Out of 9 hts only 2 storms hit the vikings. Qxc totally messed up his vikings by letting them stay in the storms and hitting interceptors and not the carriers/collossus.
In the end it was still ghost/MMM/vikings vs a critical amount of carriers/phoenix/mothership.
This match really wasnt decided by hts.
he linked different game, i gave my own link check it maybe vods are out yet
I really think that P is the favorite every minute the game goes longer. Terran definitely has the stronger early to mid game and up until P's 3rd or 4th base goes down, I feel the MU is Terran's to dictate. Once 3 bases are up and you reach the Supply cap, the Protoss mechanics make it stronger. Warp in means ACTUAL 300 food armies and Templar cost all of 2 food to kill 10 food of Marines or 6 food of Marauders, even, for much less than the cost per.
For me, I try to go into the serious midlegame with an earlier 3rd and an insanely fast 4th and then slow push Tanks and MM+Ravens+Vikings while getting all the remaining upgrades simultaneously and doubling up Factory and Rax numbers for faster re-macro.
With Amulet and HT, T needs to have a clear economic advantage or concede once P gets to 3 bases. Right now there is not a cost effective way to push into HT+Amulet with any T composition, so it becomes a war of attrition and all about how fast T can safely break into a P expo.
On December 15 2010 23:27 Sleight wrote: 2300 Diamond T and P.
I really think that P is the favorite every minute the game goes longer. Terran definitely has the stronger early to mid game and up until P's 3rd or 4th base goes down, I feel the MU is Terran's to dictate. Once 3 bases are up and you reach the Supply cap, the Protoss mechanics make it stronger. Warp in means ACTUAL 300 food armies and Templar cost all of 2 food to kill 10 food of Marines or 6 food of Marauders, even, for much less than the cost per.
For me, I try to go into the serious midlegame with an earlier 3rd and an insanely fast 4th and then slow push Tanks and MM+Ravens+Vikings while getting all the remaining upgrades simultaneously and doubling up Factory and Rax numbers for faster re-macro.
With Amulet and HT, T needs to have a clear economic advantage or concede once P gets to 3 bases. Right now there is not a cost effective way to push into HT+Amulet with any T composition, so it becomes a war of attrition and all about how fast T can safely break into a P expo.
you talk like you are stating facts while its just your opinion and lmao at 300 food armies
One thing I have noticed with late game Terran V Protoss that may or may not be an game balance issue but certainly favors Protoss. Day 9 termed it the 300 food army. Lets say a 200 food Terran engages with a 200 Protoss. Mid battle both sides are taking heavy damage. Now that food is not capped for both Terran and Protoss they can once again reproduce armies. Because warp gates are instant access to reinforcement, unlike the regular build mechanic, a 200 food army can be replenished in no time with enough warp gates. Instantly having another 200 army with banked minerals and gas is not necessarily a Protoss imbalance because with larva injects Zerg can also destroy a Terran easily with a fully replenished army because of the 300 food army effect.
I'm gonna get screamed at for being a newb but the the thing I noticed is that if you forget to macro as a Terran during a battle, which as many Terrans will tell you micro in a battle is the only way to actually stand up to the sheer strength of the Protoss or the numbers of the Zerg, you cant instantly have another comparable sized army. Protoss if you forget to macro no worries you can at least have 8-15 guys instantly at anywhere there is a pylon.
On December 16 2010 00:07 Beastman wrote: I'm gonna get screamed at for being a newb but the the thing I noticed is that if you forget to macro as a Terran during a battle, which as many Terrans will tell you micro in a battle is the only way to actually stand up to the sheer strength of the Protoss or the numbers of the Zerg, you cant instantly have another comparable sized army. Protoss if you forget to macro no worries you can at least have 8-15 guys instantly at anywhere there is a pylon.
Battles don't last long in SC2 compared to BW, it's a big "boom" of everything and then it's suddenly over - so this isn't that big of a deal, you just have to macro exactly until the beginning of the battle. If you have enough ressources left over, I don't see why you wouldn't want to queue units in advance, so they start producing right away when the units start dying.
The 300 supply what you mentioned is indeed something very significant. Nevertheless this is something unique about protoss "as a whole" and really hasn't much to do with techs (mainly here ppl complain about storm). If you want to get rid of this P-advantage, you have to get rid of warpgate technology.
Although I think a very justified nerf to insta-templar-warp could be to increase the time-span the templar needs to warp. Right now, each and every unit warps in in 5 seconds (game time). This doesn't necessarily have to be this way. You could easily nerf P-lategame by increasing the HT-warp-in to 10 or 15 seconds so that you couldn't have the reinforcements available instantly. This would be an indirect nerf to amulet without actually taking away the ability of freshly built templars to storm.
On December 15 2010 10:37 donkkk wrote: just saw game qxc vs minigun lategame ghost,bc, marauder, banshee thor, vikings got completly stomped by toss death ball wasnt even close, everything evaporated despite of emp which hit every fucking ht, this matchup makes me sad
this sounds like a lot of bull****. And it is no counterargument to anything untill you post a replay.
here you go http://www.root-gaming.com/replay/qxc-vs-mini-lost-temple it's not really BS. Qxc was all around the map. If you compare the micro needed for him and the toss player and the effeciency of the units it really makes you sad. But I think there were some tactical mistakes by qxc. He should have switched to banshee/BC and some vikings for observer hunting and proceed as he did. Scan, kill obs, make the enemy scream, retreat. He had room to transition after his massive drop play. Imho he should have traded his army exactly this way (drop play) and rebuild into more late tech units as he did agains kiwikaki. Btw this game showed that ghost is not sufficient as a counter to templar, due to the warp in, even if you emp and emp the warping templars he just warps more of them and you don't have enough ghost with you. And of course he can morph to archon right away, like seriously, this should be made it at least 5 energy so we don't get this kind of non-sense. Use emp and use 3 more? Disclaimer: I don't have problem with Toss and while in this situation it's kind of strong, else I find them ok.
So I call it BS when some dude says "just saw game qxc vs minigun lategame ghost,bc, marauder, banshee thor, vikings got completly stomped by toss death ball wasnt even close, everything evaporated despite of emp which hit every fucking ht" and then you link me a game where qxc didnt make a single bc,banshee or thor.
This game didnt show at all that ghost is not a sufficient counter to templars. The first battle at ~38:30 was MMM with some ghosts and some vikings vs mothership stalkers sentries chargelots hts 1 immortal and an archon. 7 out of 8 ht's were emped and qxc won the fight with a 40 food lead because of it.
The second fight at ~40:30 was MMM with 2 ghosts vs 5 ht's 2 carriers many chargelots. qxc emped the first 2 ht's, he missed his emp on the other 3 by a hair and he lost the fight.
The 3rd fight at ~44 was just really bad positioning by qxc. It was MMM with 9 ghosts and 16 vikings vs chargelots 7 carriers 9 hts and a mothership and 2 colossus. Qxc was attacked from a bad angle and his army was split up. Out of 9 hts only 2 storms hit the vikings. Qxc totally messed up his vikings by letting them stay in the storms and hitting interceptors and not the carriers/collossus.
In the end it was still ghost/MMM/vikings vs a critical amount of carriers/phoenix/mothership.
This match really wasnt decided by hts.
he linked different game, i gave my own link check it maybe vods are out yet
sry I gave the wrong rep, but anyway what I said stands true and your analysis is a bit of coz it starts at 38 minutes, else it's pretty accurate and I agree with you as I already wrote. I mean all the droping action before even with ghosts in the medivacs was not enought to stop the templars effectively. ergo ghost is not a counter to templar, it helps but you cant really relly on them. You need higher tech Banshee/BC to make him use his feedback, so he has to move a bit more forward. Then the ghost = HT, else he has the advantage of hitting you with storm safely from behind and you have to move forward to EMP. In the lost temple game against mini he should have switched to higher tech way sooner/banshee/bc as he proved in the other games.Do the drops but replace the supply with higher tech. Im terran as well btw.
On December 14 2010 00:04 weiliem wrote: Does Mech actually work in TvP? perhaps like in SCBW, tanks helions?? It seems quite logical theoretically, with the same concept as SCBW, tanks>stalkers while helions>zeals, while tanks>colosus too. But T now has no mines. so perhaps the biggest problem of mech is that the mobility is even worse than in SCBW due to not having mines to control the map. And maybe Voids is a really big problem to this mech style. Is 80 damage storm really significant to mech? HTs doesnt seem to be effective against mech, so amulet upgrade wouldn't be much of a problem then?? Im not sure about all my points. All i know is that i dint have much success with mech build in TvP, so i think perhaps its my controls which are bad. What do u all think??
But overall is it workable using map in TvP??
Not really because: - Many maps dont allow it - No good detection options - No good early anti-air options - Too fucking slow and vulnerable to counters on most maps - Carriers.
Playing mech TvP seems to end up with either a really long game where you die to carriers or void rays, or a really short game where you try to attack before you are maxed or whatever and die, or get countered or something.
If protoss doesnt build carriers or void rays, yeah 200/200 in siege tank, hellion, ghost is gonna decimate anything. I think mech isnt viable as a primary play style at the moment.
Just out of curiosity it seems to me that that the 1/1/1 opening is best when going mech also being gas starved most of the time it hurts alot less to waste a scan. Or you can continue to mule and use some the extra resources you gained to building a proxy rax to scout. (this is my perference) Thus if you see a stargate then you have the ability to pump out vikings you have a raven vs dt or the option of saving for scan due to higher gas count. Against standard protoss it seems a 2 gate robo is most seen as you are able to get a observer out. If the protoss haphazardly throughs down a stargate to make voidrays they won't be able to produce out of both the robotics facility and the stargate. Granted at this point your natrual should be getting close to done. On the same token so should the terrans as it has already been mentioned are gas limited by this so even if they dont throw it up directly at the natural they can at least start building it. After the natural comes online you should be able to afford decent anti air if you scout the tech out. The main problem imo comes after that. If you are on a map where a third is hard to obtain with a slow army than the toss will be able to get alot more air than you know how to deal with. If you can't take your third easy your goal will revolve alot more on harrasment to make sure the toss isn't able to take full advantage of his expos.
On December 14 2010 03:15 Offhand wrote: Tanks are viable in TvP, no matter how much you whine the core fact unit isn't useless and forces a response from the protoss player in some way.
See: Mana v Naama DH finals.
Nony would disagree with you
Replays would be nice.
read his post history hes anti fan of tank build and criticized MaNas DH play, he says that chargelots +colo eat this alive
Naama seems to realize too how much weaker tank play is on far walk distance maps. You noticed during DH that he switched up from almost pure mech + bunkers to lots of infantry + tanks. The main difference between the 2 is is the tank to infantry ratio. If zealot + colo is the composition giving him the most trouble take away from one of the raxes producing infantry to add another factory producing hellions. Hellions are the one mech unit that is very mobile. So it could reinforce just as quickly as other infantry units could it is more resistant to storm and colo than marines. Lastly even if they get raped by the colo in the quote they have raped more than than enough zealots to even the playing field vs the rest of the tanks and infantry.
OP here. For me the topic can be closed. Conclusion in my opinion: anything else then bio doesn't work that well against protoss. It's logical that tier 3 protoss counters this. A sollution would be a mechbuff and / or a battlecruiser buff. Ofcourse we shouldn't forget about TvZ too.
I thought most people were wrong this time, but I just watched a bw game today (flash x afrotoss) and man, it does felt like every single unit WAS balanced, carriers were strong, but goliaths and turrets could defend, it felt that the better player (i wont spoiler) would win and that happened. On current sc2's tvp it feels that unless T has advantage it will show a countdown that when reached T auto loses ...
On December 15 2010 10:37 donkkk wrote: just saw game qxc vs minigun lategame ghost,bc, marauder, banshee thor, vikings got completly stomped by toss death ball wasnt even close, everything evaporated despite of emp which hit every fucking ht, this matchup makes me sad
this sounds like a lot of bull****. And it is no counterargument to anything untill you post a replay.
here you go http://www.root-gaming.com/replay/qxc-vs-mini-lost-temple it's not really BS. Qxc was all around the map. If you compare the micro needed for him and the toss player and the effeciency of the units it really makes you sad. But I think there were some tactical mistakes by qxc. He should have switched to banshee/BC and some vikings for observer hunting and proceed as he did. Scan, kill obs, make the enemy scream, retreat. He had room to transition after his massive drop play. Imho he should have traded his army exactly this way (drop play) and rebuild into more late tech units as he did agains kiwikaki. Btw this game showed that ghost is not sufficient as a counter to templar, due to the warp in, even if you emp and emp the warping templars he just warps more of them and you don't have enough ghost with you. And of course he can morph to archon right away, like seriously, this should be made it at least 5 energy so we don't get this kind of non-sense. Use emp and use 3 more? Disclaimer: I don't have problem with Toss and while in this situation it's kind of strong, else I find them ok.
So I call it BS when some dude says "just saw game qxc vs minigun lategame ghost,bc, marauder, banshee thor, vikings got completly stomped by toss death ball wasnt even close, everything evaporated despite of emp which hit every fucking ht" and then you link me a game where qxc didnt make a single bc,banshee or thor.
This game didnt show at all that ghost is not a sufficient counter to templars. The first battle at ~38:30 was MMM with some ghosts and some vikings vs mothership stalkers sentries chargelots hts 1 immortal and an archon. 7 out of 8 ht's were emped and qxc won the fight with a 40 food lead because of it.
The second fight at ~40:30 was MMM with 2 ghosts vs 5 ht's 2 carriers many chargelots. qxc emped the first 2 ht's, he missed his emp on the other 3 by a hair and he lost the fight.
The 3rd fight at ~44 was just really bad positioning by qxc. It was MMM with 9 ghosts and 16 vikings vs chargelots 7 carriers 9 hts and a mothership and 2 colossus. Qxc was attacked from a bad angle and his army was split up. Out of 9 hts only 2 storms hit the vikings. Qxc totally messed up his vikings by letting them stay in the storms and hitting interceptors and not the carriers/collossus.
In the end it was still ghost/MMM/vikings vs a critical amount of carriers/phoenix/mothership.
This match really wasnt decided by hts.
new games (from todays tour) split map, both maxed bratok goes bc,tank, thor, ghost vikings and once again final battle looks like a total joke,
On December 16 2010 06:26 Dente wrote: OP here. For me the topic can be closed. Conclusion in my opinion: anything else then bio doesn't work that well against protoss. It's logical that tier 3 protoss counters this. A sollution would be a mechbuff and / or a battlecruiser buff. Ofcourse we shouldn't forget about TvZ too.
For me this game shows, that TvP is still way, WAY underdeveloped in lategame:
Until now it is one of the following: a) Terran timing pushs, either T wins or P defends and has advantage b) P goes quick colossi, T counters with vikings, P either loses or transitions into templars: T still goes mass-bio and sometimes wins, most times loses c) P goes quick templar, T goes mass-bio and either wins quickly with a push or nearly always loses in the long run d) T goes pure mech and nearly always loses
I'm not saying what qxc does is the new state of the art TvP lategame. I'm saying, please, LOOK at what he does against an extraordinary toss player - why not try to implement stuff he does and made working in lategame? Banshees force phoenixes, so why not follow it up with some thors instead of just mass MM? BCs force void rays and/or blink stalkers which cuts painfully in the mass-chargelot/HT combo, every toss strives for....simply because toss then has to implement some anti-air.
Why do banshees force phoenix? HT can simply feedback them...and ghosts...and medivacs....and ravens...then 1 storm on bioball = gg I honestly don't see the point in getting col's in TvP just mass warp gates and HT's...amulet and gg.
On December 16 2010 07:53 Baffels wrote: Why do banshees force phoenix? HT can simply feedback them...and ghosts...and medivacs....and ravens...then 1 storm on bioball = gg I honestly don't see the point in getting col's in TvP just mass warp gates and HT's...amulet and gg.
to some degree you are right, but we just have to try new variations. From what I learned, if the toss doesn't counter your banshee with phoenix, then the banshees with observer snipe and or pdd will crush their robo army and without detection even their HT army can't do really that much. Storms are quite easy to dodge/get out and you can repair afterwards. Air gives you more dps as well as you have more fight power in choke areas. There is a reason why top toss counter banshees with phoenix play. And thor counters that and also counters force fields, but they die to immortals. And they are countered by guess what, marine, which die to collosi and or templar, which die to banshee and emp. The way I look at it it seems balanced from the unit role kind of view. Now it's our terrans time to l2p and get to those units and abuse the hell of them. Maybe they are weak, but maybe they just seem so. TvZ with reapers was OP, it seemed so, but zergs found a way around with roaches and other stuff and we have seen some brilliant micro from both players there. It was OP in the beginning as all new things are, but not in the end (in 1on1, there was a patch due to OP in 2v2 and more).
I think the game betweend qxc and kiwikaki is the way to go for terran. U force them to use templar to feedback your BC-> easier emp for you. Now I have a feeling that terrans have the option to late game, but they have to hold the collosi/templar push from toss to get there. Delay it as much as possible, as the zerg players do, take expos with the minerals overflow and spam those hight tech units to force not so deadly unit combination. Trade your bio army from mid game in drop fights while switching to higher tech units. This way, if the big fight comes it should be even. And if you have the right high tech compossition, you are both even and he runs you over like a godzilla, cry OP, uninstall the game and scream FU blizzard all over bnet forums and play SC1, till they patch this to a state, it's actually playable. But only then
On December 16 2010 06:26 Dente wrote: OP here. For me the topic can be closed. Conclusion in my opinion: anything else then bio doesn't work that well against protoss. It's logical that tier 3 protoss counters this. A sollution would be a mechbuff and / or a battlecruiser buff. Ofcourse we shouldn't forget about TvZ too.
For me this game shows, that TvP is still way, WAY underdeveloped in lategame:
Until now it is one of the following: a) Terran timing pushs, either T wins or P defends and has advantage b) P goes quick colossi, T counters with vikings, P either loses or transitions into templars: T still goes mass-bio and sometimes wins, most times loses c) P goes quick templar, T goes mass-bio and either wins quickly with a push or nearly always loses in the long run d) T goes pure mech and nearly always loses
I'm not saying what qxc does is the new state of the art TvP lategame. I'm saying, please, LOOK at what he does against an extraordinary toss player - why not try to implement stuff he does and made working in lategame? Banshees force phoenixes, so why not follow it up with some thors instead of just mass MM? BCs force void rays and/or blink stalkers which cuts painfully in the mass-chargelot/HT combo, every toss strives for....simply because toss then has to implement some anti-air.
no offence but kiwi didnt make a single colo in that game which made marines actually a viable unit, watch bratok vs nightend ( i gave links in post above) nightend had better unit combination and everything just melted including bc's
I also feel early game TvP is not as bad as people think.
Terran really doesnt have that much of an advantage. On maps where force field can easily split the terran army and zealots are being put in front. it is an uphill battle.
On December 16 2010 06:26 Dente wrote: OP here. For me the topic can be closed. Conclusion in my opinion: anything else then bio doesn't work that well against protoss. It's logical that tier 3 protoss counters this. A sollution would be a mechbuff and / or a battlecruiser buff. Ofcourse we shouldn't forget about TvZ too.
For me this game shows, that TvP is still way, WAY underdeveloped in lategame:
Until now it is one of the following: a) Terran timing pushs, either T wins or P defends and has advantage b) P goes quick colossi, T counters with vikings, P either loses or transitions into templars: T still goes mass-bio and sometimes wins, most times loses c) P goes quick templar, T goes mass-bio and either wins quickly with a push or nearly always loses in the long run d) T goes pure mech and nearly always loses
I'm not saying what qxc does is the new state of the art TvP lategame. I'm saying, please, LOOK at what he does against an extraordinary toss player - why not try to implement stuff he does and made working in lategame? Banshees force phoenixes, so why not follow it up with some thors instead of just mass MM? BCs force void rays and/or blink stalkers which cuts painfully in the mass-chargelot/HT combo, every toss strives for....simply because toss then has to implement some anti-air.
So what you're saying is that for a protoss to "win" they are outplaying the Terran (In your earlier posts)?
This I do not agree with at all.
I just think the match-up right now is still maturing -- the game hasn't been out long enough for everything to settle yet. It'll constantly change and there will be ways for T's to beat P's and P's to beat T's.
Just like the FotM build which consists of chargelots (a huge ball) with mass HT's.
Ok now I watched the 2 games of brat_ok vs nightend. In the 1st one, he is way too much heavy on vikings, if half of them were banshees, he could have done much more damage after the 1st big battle, from this on it was an uphill fight. In the second game, while having the tech units, his micro was suffering from 1ctrl group syndrom and not targeting with the thors, bad position of the BC, no yamato to snipe the collosi and no ghosts to EMP the HT's. Imho he deserved to die in this one game. I ain't saying, he can't play or such, but as many stated we don't have really that much experience with this kind of fights and they happen quite rarely due to all-ins, timing pushes etc and it's hard to say if it's viable or not.
The unfortunately-named Terran beat Huk's zealots, stalkers, colossi & HT's with MMM, ghosts & vikings only. I don't think he made a single factory unit.
On December 16 2010 14:11 Antisocialmunky wrote: Yes, the only thing that T seems to be able to do it seems... Everything else just falls flat due to the late game air switch.
Its an okay way to play but its problematic when it becomes the only way to play...
Well I guess we're getting closer to perfection then since that's all that sc1:bw tvp was. The same f-cking thing every game.
Wow dente, I played you some days ago and you flamed me because I wasnt able to give you an advice how to beat p, so I watched the replay and you just lost because of big mistakes...
You tried mech and at the first big fight you got into your tanks werent sieged at first and there was nothing to block for them. Your thors stand in the back... Later you did nothing when I was mass expanding and you got totally owned by storm into your mineral lines by just 2 pylons...
Edit: Also you didnt get more than +1 atk upgrades, whats really silly for mech...
On December 16 2010 06:26 Dente wrote: OP here. For me the topic can be closed. Conclusion in my opinion: anything else then bio doesn't work that well against protoss. It's logical that tier 3 protoss counters this. A sollution would be a mechbuff and / or a battlecruiser buff. Ofcourse we shouldn't forget about TvZ too.
For me this game shows, that TvP is still way, WAY underdeveloped in lategame:
Until now it is one of the following: a) Terran timing pushs, either T wins or P defends and has advantage b) P goes quick colossi, T counters with vikings, P either loses or transitions into templars: T still goes mass-bio and sometimes wins, most times loses c) P goes quick templar, T goes mass-bio and either wins quickly with a push or nearly always loses in the long run d) T goes pure mech and nearly always loses
I'm not saying what qxc does is the new state of the art TvP lategame. I'm saying, please, LOOK at what he does against an extraordinary toss player - why not try to implement stuff he does and made working in lategame? Banshees force phoenixes, so why not follow it up with some thors instead of just mass MM? BCs force void rays and/or blink stalkers which cuts painfully in the mass-chargelot/HT combo, every toss strives for....simply because toss then has to implement some anti-air.
So what you're saying is that for a protoss to "win" they are outplaying the Terran (In your earlier posts)?
This I do not agree with at all.
I just think the match-up right now is still maturing -- the game hasn't been out long enough for everything to settle yet. It'll constantly change and there will be ways for T's to beat P's and P's to beat T's.
Just like the FotM build which consists of chargelots (a huge ball) with mass HT's.
Where do I claim that protoss only wins when they are outplaying terran?
I say (and this is a huge difference) when protoss stays EVEN during midgame, then they do in fact outplay the terran, because nothing can overcome MMM in midgame before colossi reach a critical mass or storm is out. What I'm saying is, that it should be standard for terran to enter lategame one base ahead. If they don't manage to achieve that, they did something wrong. Same as if zerg stays on equal bases with other races...they just lose. Nothing wrong with zerg being one base ahead of you. Same with TvP, if I'm P and T stays level with me on bases (say 3 base vs 3 base, I don't even care about gold since gas is so much more important) then I feel very safe going into lategame. If T "not" uses their midgame advantage that MMM offers to boost their economy, then yes, P has outplayed them. Right now the funny thing is, that 90% of the terrans try to bust down the P-natural with their superior forces. But die to forcefields. Now just think about terran....NOT attacking, but quickly going to 4 bases? Do you really think toss would challenge the T before he has a critical mass? Imo many terrans throw away their midgame-superiority with battles in very unfortunate positions right now, when instead they should play economicly greedier. Same as BW just the other way round.
Notice, that I DO realize that maps are a painful problem for this right now, there are some maps, where T just can't do that and has to capitalize early on.
To the guy that mentioned the bratok-games: bratok made numerous small mistakes, for example on the game on meta he has 2-3 bunkers full of marauders during the whole game that stayed there until the end of time. He had more scvs but didn't use them to get significantly ahead in upgrades. Although he was maxed, in the crucial battles he wasn't "really" maxed but had units all over the place, either rallying or being produced. So the army of the toss was in fact larger, not least due to the fact that toss had fewer workers which is quite significant for lategame 200/200 battles. Micro-wise he lets the vikings fight against the phoenixes instead of focussing down the colossi. The funny thing is, the nightend vs bratok games were quite even for a long time, nightend just made fewer mistakes in the long run which culminated in the last deciding battle. But seriously, the games could've gone either way, if anything they are prove for TvP being quite balanced lol.
Here's one thing for certain: you aren't getting out BCs in numbers large enough to make a difference, and ghosts, while effective against HTs/sentries, are actually near worthless against everything else - not even chargelots.
1. BC are, just like Carriers, there to distract. unlike Carriers however, they are able to actualy deal damage and, with the yamato upgrade, can rid the protoss army of Colossus quit qickly.
2. builttime wise, you can get less then 2 Marauders in the time it takes a ghost, resource wise you could maybe get 3 Marauders during the time it takes to get a Ghost. a single EMP on a protoss ball can do upwards of 1.25k damage to there shields. do you honestly believe that your 3 Marauders you could get instead would do 20-40 shots each to even pull equal with what a single well placed EMP could do?
there damage is not there attack, but there spellcaster abillity, wich is like a storm to protoss.. only you can not dodge it and it is instand damage instead of a DoT.
ghosts are, in my opinion, the most underused Terran unit in TvP.
balanced = when protoss crushes terran with simple 1a while T has to target every type of unit manually and tbh i cant say if it helped the final battle wasnt even close it was genocide of terran army, i dont even know why i bother seems that countering equally skilled protoss 1gate FE with your own expansion is suicide in this game, guess i will just keep 1 base allining and keep blizzard happy with their 50% winrate in that matchup (which in fact is is 60-40 for P but whatever)
On December 16 2010 19:28 donkkk wrote: balanced = when protoss crushes terran with simple 1a while T has to target every type of unit manually and tbh i cant say if it helped the final battle wasnt even close it was genocide of terran army, i dont even know why i bother seems that countering equally skilled protoss 1gate FE with your own expansion is suicide in this game, guess i will just keep 1 base allining and keep blizzard happy with their 50% winrate in that matchup (which in fact is is 60-40 for P but whatever)
Seriously: you registered 6 days ago, 90% of your posts are destructive QQs without any attempt to discuss things.
On December 16 2010 19:28 donkkk wrote: balanced = when protoss crushes terran with simple 1a while T has to target every type of unit manually and tbh i cant say if it helped the final battle wasnt even close it was genocide of terran army, i dont even know why i bother seems that countering equally skilled protoss 1gate FE with your own expansion is suicide in this game, guess i will just keep 1 base allining and keep blizzard happy with their 50% winrate in that matchup (which in fact is is 60-40 for P but whatever)
Seriously: you registered 6 days ago, 90% of your posts are destructive QQs without any attempt to discuss things.
Way to go.
oh pot calling the kettle black, half of your posts are whines how protoss is weak and how they dont win tourneys, do i need dig out your quotes from famous "Why is protoss doing so bad in the GSL?" created right before gsl3 with 3 P in ro4 and thats without any patch.
Wow so much flaming going on in this thread.. so unnecessary. Just debate the point in the OP; don't have to flame each other with off topic bullshit.
OT: A late game protoss with amulet/critical mass collosus/storm is almost unstoppable (assuming players are on even skill levels) - early game T is favoured, late game P is favoured; as T isn't the trick to stop P from getting to the late game.
If it gets to late game - T's need to evolve beyond MMM + Viking. Pain.user has showed us a pretty cool build by incorporating Thor/Banshee into his late game army composition. In big battles he manages to snipe observers and allow the cloaked banshees to destroy everything. More creative builds need to be discovered that allow for a better army composition.
On December 16 2010 19:28 donkkk wrote: balanced = when protoss crushes terran with simple 1a while T has to target every type of unit manually and tbh i cant say if it helped the final battle wasnt even close it was genocide of terran army, i dont even know why i bother seems that countering equally skilled protoss 1gate FE with your own expansion is suicide in this game, guess i will just keep 1 base allining and keep blizzard happy with their 50% winrate in that matchup (which in fact is is 60-40 for P but whatever)
Seriously: you registered 6 days ago, 90% of your posts are destructive QQs without any attempt to discuss things.
Way to go.
oh pot calling the kettle black, half of your posts are whines how protoss is weak and how they dont win tourneys, do i need dig out your quotes from famous "Why is protoss doing so bad in the GSL?" created right before gsl3 with 3 P in ro4 and thats without any patch.
Please do so, could be fun considering that - in my first post back then - I agreed with the guy claiming that it is possibly just a coincidence.
The problem is that protoss will win a 200vs200 fight most of the time. Then they can reinforce so MUCH QUICKER and the terran will 100% lose. Planetarys will not safe your production buildings like raxes and factories. A smart toss will move into your main and there is no way coming back. Your first new units will be slaughtered while the protoss is happily reinforcing.
On December 16 2010 20:13 Dente wrote: The problem is that protoss will win a 200vs200 fight most of the time. Then they can reinforce so MUCH QUICKER and the terran will 100% lose. Planetarys will not safe your production buildings like raxes and factories. A smart toss will move into your main and there is no way coming back. Your first new units will be slaughtered while the protoss is happily reinforcing.
True to some extent, some possible solutions:
a) Force units that can NOT be warped in. This is why I also think T needs to incorporate mech more. Mech forces air and air needs quite some time to be re-built. b) Terran is much more mobile which is why I don't see why terran shouldn't try to fight at the expansions of protoss while outexpanding him. Some maps don't allow outexpanding, which can cause problems indeed.
Zerg also can reinforce insanely fast, nevertheless you don't read that many complaints about instantly reinforced 200/200 zerg-forces. Fixing this would require changing the whole warptech-mechanism, I doubt this is do-able since it touches core gameplay mechanics.
On December 16 2010 20:28 sleepingdog wrote: [Zerg also can reinforce insanely fast, nevertheless you don't read that many complaints about instantly reinforced 200/200 zerg-forces. Fixing this would require changing the whole warptech-mechanism, I doubt this is do-able since it touches core gameplay mechanics.
lol where have you been. haven't you read the endless threads about how terran has no choice but to marine-scv all-in because of zerg late game insta-reinforcement
I like TvP, its fun to play and challenging. I dont earn money with sc2 and the match making system makes sure i win 50% of my games anyway. So i am fine, thanks.
Terran needs to go in with a ZvP Broodwar mentality. Get one base ahead and just turtle while using small groups of MM to deny toss expansions and be annoying in General.
And out engage when you know you can remake your army faster than your toss friend aka you are way ahead economically.
Also use flanks. Its been working ok well for me recently.
Honestly i at first hated pvt but now its startd to grow on me...I love to put on early pressure with a three rax build so that the toss can't just tech ur to collosus or templar...if they try to any way the game usually ends right there...however if the late game does come I like to abuse drops and instead of killing workers I like to in after tech more specifically robo bay and templar archives
The unfortunately-named Terran beat Huk's zealots, stalkers, colossi & HT's with MMM, ghosts & vikings only. I don't think he made a single factory unit.
I think this match is a very nice example of how even PvT lategame is.
HuKs macro management was solid in this game and excrements was even a bit poorer despite winning the game in the end.
It really came down to decision making and army control. I dont dare to say that HuKs control is bad but excrements was better in this game. HuK is just not carefull enough with his storms and especially with his chargelots. Compare this control to MCs for example. He almost never storms his own units and plays mindgames with his HTs.
my prediction is that the more we get used to PvT lategame micro the more balanced it will look. because it really really comes down to pure army control and the guys who excell in PvT/TvP have very good micro.
edit:
actually the PvT lategame looks like ZvT was a few months ago. Many Terrans were crushed mid-late by mutaling baneling because they didnt control their armies right vs banelings. Now you see guys like Jinro/Nada/MK etc who have very good marinespreading so they can keep up with their pressure.
Its ofc easyer to micro against banes than against storm. But I think this will come sooner or later. And I love how powerfull storm and emp are because both abilities turn the tide so fast.
On December 16 2010 21:30 MegaTerran wrote: I just cant understand one thing. If toss is so OP why Blizz increase their power in new patch making phonix build time faster?
This has little to do with the current state of the game in TvP as phoenix are rarely seen in the matchup as it is (and if, mostly only in the early game).
Toss i find the most difficult match up as terran Have had alot of trouble finding the right unit composition (and still have) but after watching manny streams and reading treads i realy think terran has only 1 good unit against toss and 2 reasonable units.
The best terran unit against toss is the marauder and it is in general the unit that should be massed and upgraded i think The marine is just to weak and dies to fast in general against toss, they are good to counter a specific unit (immortal void ray) but think terran should only make them in midgame if toss goes mass void ray or mass immortal The strongest toss ability storm is an aoe spell wich is somewhat countered by big units (since then there sinply less units effected in the area) Best unit composition to blindly go for as terran i think is mass marauder and then vikings as needed against voidray/colossus and medivacs if no vikings needed (try make as least vikings as possible but just enough to counter colossus/void/carrier) This unit composition has had the most succes in the t vs p i watched on streams in midgame and later. It has the advantage of beeing able to rebuild fast and in general it beats the protos units wich can be rebuild fast (gateway units) Other good unit for terran beside marauder and viking is the thor i think It can just take several storms head on while dealing good damage
Bad units are imo the tank mostly Seen spades use tanks alot in tvp on his stream (in combo with raven and marine) and often they just dont seem to work out well against toss Think terran should avoid tanks at all cost and instead go for tors if they want make something from factory
Banshee is a ok unit (specially if you good with micro and harras) but i dont find it so effective when you have a big mid/late game army bulk and want to 1a It doesnt deal well with colossus since it gets targetted by the stalkers (unlike viking) and its not that great cost for cost against stalkers Also going banshee doesnt give anti air like viking and you would then need marine (wich you want to avoid) or still vikings
Ghost is a verry good unit off course Emp is awesome and it can do more damage in hp then the dreaded storm.. you need skills though to use it efficiently and if you not so good with micro (like me you can maybe better focus on macro and more marauders/viking-medi
The win percentages favouring Protoss are for Bronze and Silver. Bronze league stats for bronze league players. Please don’t balance the game off Silver calibre plays.
I think you cherry picked the replays, but so this doesn’t just degenerate into a flame, I’ll treat the questions seriously.
In the Mana v ServyOa Skarukas game, Mana fast expands with a 16 Nexus. This works against Terran, but it is a huge risk. With regard to balance issues, it is (1) strategy specific, (2) most likely map specific, and possibly even (3) map and strategy specific. Mana pulled it off easily on a huge map, when ServyOa was teching. You can fast expand on other maps, but only if they don’t apply early pressure. So usually you are FEing into their one rax FE, or double port Banshee; both are roughly equivalent positions. The blowout works the other way if you face a Marauder ball of death. Teching isn’t unusual for large maps, but contrarian Maka rax play, or even riskier proxy play would have just destroyed it. I’m not even sure regular three rax wouldn’t have successfully busted it, even on this huge map. However, even if we assume that it would not, you have a RE with a strategy that only works on one map. Terran have their fair (rather excessive) share of T-favoured, MU specific maps.
With regards to what ServyOa could have done differently: (1) scout properly, (2) not run a single hellion into enemy units for no gain, (3) not sacrifice four marines, (4) bunker. I’m not flaming you, because I am giving you the respect of answering your questions, and of trying to help you improve, but it really looks like the games are cherry picked because ServyOa played terribly. He got so greedy by not bunkering on a pure (double port Banshee) tech build, until after he was in trouble. If that bunker was started slightly earlier then he probably could have defended. It might have been busted, but if ServyOa was playing well, he could hold that with SCVs auto repairing the bunker, even after feeding Mana five units. (Opinion Edit: How is that fair? Why does Terran get so many -easy- fall back positions after terrible plays?)
I don’t like the games you’ve picked. Your general methodology is suspect. The logic seems to be, look at these huge blowouts, and from pros.... Your being “...100% sure that they would win.” doesn’t mean anything. You can’t just arbitrarily decide one player is better and then assume it is imba when they get blown out. In the case of G1 it is laughable – of course a Terran should be blown out when they’ve sacrificed five units early game and don’t even put up a bunker. ServyOa lost G1 because he played terribly regardless of your opinion of him.
On the more charitable interpretation, I suspect you are talking about G2. That game was a good game. ServyOa played well. It would be an excellent game for you to model your TvP MU off of. ServyOa played to a position where he enjoyed a massive advantage and then took a blindside loss because he over extended himself. (I’m also assuming this is the game you couldn’t figure out how the loss occurred – he over extended himself and lost the tech production about 1-2 minutes before completely breaking Mana) That was an excellent game, and I think would be very instructive for you in learning to play TvP. The fact that he lost shouldn’t discourage you or suggest imbalance, because it was somewhat of a fluke and the result of an easily correctable play error.
On December 13 2010 22:40 Arcanefrost wrote: Im a toss player and I think pvt is pretty balanced. The problem is terrans all in too much and don't practice macro games enough imo. Players like Jinro prove that terran is perfectly fine late game in any matchup, but it takes practice. Jinro has been practicing macro for months, trying to be a reactionary player with good lategame and I think it's safe to say he succeeded. On the other hand players like rain will obviously not beat the likes of tester in a macro game. I think boxers 1rax fe build is pretty good. I would recommend watching some korean pvt from the gomtv allstar tournament, observe their build orders and find one that suits your style: http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=event&id=382
There's nothing to gain in a true macro game for T because of amulet templars + warpin. Yeah you can fast expand and all that stuff but once the Templar archives starts the research you might as well pull all SCVs and push because your situation isn't gonna get any better.
I'm not saying P>T because there are certain timing windows T can exploit (and if those are exploited correctly it can make T look really imba) but in a true macro game Toss will most likely win the game.
So yeah if by balanced you mean one race has a really good chance of winning early game and the other will probably win if the game goes late then you're right.
Ghosts are incredibly effective against HT's for a reason.
On December 13 2010 22:40 Arcanefrost wrote: Im a toss player and I think pvt is pretty balanced. The problem is terrans all in too much and don't practice macro games enough imo. Players like Jinro prove that terran is perfectly fine late game in any matchup, but it takes practice. Jinro has been practicing macro for months, trying to be a reactionary player with good lategame and I think it's safe to say he succeeded. On the other hand players like rain will obviously not beat the likes of tester in a macro game. I think boxers 1rax fe build is pretty good. I would recommend watching some korean pvt from the gomtv allstar tournament, observe their build orders and find one that suits your style: http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=event&id=382
There's nothing to gain in a true macro game for T because of amulet templars + warpin. Yeah you can fast expand and all that stuff but once the Templar archives starts the research you might as well pull all SCVs and push because your situation isn't gonna get any better.
I'm not saying P>T because there are certain timing windows T can exploit (and if those are exploited correctly it can make T look really imba) but in a true macro game Toss will most likely win the game.
So yeah if by balanced you mean one race has a really good chance of winning early game and the other will probably win if the game goes late then you're right.
Ghosts are incredibly effective against HT's for a reason.
Incredibly effective at EMPing spread out HT's that can be replenish given that there is a nearby pylon...
On December 17 2010 08:15 Lazyass wrote: In the Mana v ServyOa Skarukas game, Mana fast expands with a 16 Nexus. This works against Terran, but it is a huge risk. With regard to balance issues, it is (1) strategy specific, (2) most likely map specific, and possibly even (3) map and strategy specific. Mana pulled it off easily on a huge map, when ServyOa was teching. You can fast expand on other maps, but only if they don’t apply early pressure. So usually you are FEing into their one rax FE, or double port Banshee; both are roughly equivalent positions. The blowout works the other way if you face a Marauder ball of death. Teching isn’t unusual for large maps, but contrarian Maka rax play, or even riskier proxy play would have just destroyed it. I’m not even sure regular three rax wouldn’t have successfully busted it, even on this huge map. However, even if we assume that it would not, you have a RE with a strategy that only works on one map. Terran have their fair (rather excessive) share of T-favoured, MU specific maps.
Servy was on 6base, mana on 2. Servy lost. There is nothing more to say imo
On December 13 2010 22:40 Arcanefrost wrote: Im a toss player and I think pvt is pretty balanced. The problem is terrans all in too much and don't practice macro games enough imo. Players like Jinro prove that terran is perfectly fine late game in any matchup, but it takes practice. Jinro has been practicing macro for months, trying to be a reactionary player with good lategame and I think it's safe to say he succeeded. On the other hand players like rain will obviously not beat the likes of tester in a macro game. I think boxers 1rax fe build is pretty good. I would recommend watching some korean pvt from the gomtv allstar tournament, observe their build orders and find one that suits your style: http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=event&id=382
There's nothing to gain in a true macro game for T because of amulet templars + warpin. Yeah you can fast expand and all that stuff but once the Templar archives starts the research you might as well pull all SCVs and push because your situation isn't gonna get any better.
I'm not saying P>T because there are certain timing windows T can exploit (and if those are exploited correctly it can make T look really imba) but in a true macro game Toss will most likely win the game.
So yeah if by balanced you mean one race has a really good chance of winning early game and the other will probably win if the game goes late then you're right.
Ghosts are incredibly effective against HT's for a reason.
Incredibly effective at EMPing spread out HT's that can be replenish given that there is a nearby pylon...
thats why you should outnumber your oppenents ht's with your ghosts and emp the new ones aswell dont expect to be fine with just 2-3 ghosts while he uses ~10 ht's
I cannot believe that this post hasnt been shut down and that people still care about it, this TvP HTvghost imbalance and a few tangents argument has literally occurred 50x.
On December 16 2010 21:30 MegaTerran wrote: I just cant understand one thing. If toss is so OP why Blizz increase their power in new patch making phonix build time faster?
This has little to do with the current state of the game in TvP as phoenix are rarely seen in the matchup as it is (and if, mostly only in the early game).
actually alot of toss started adding phoenix when terran gets viking for colussi, its been proven to be effective. the biggest issue with the new patch is that toss can do this off 1 sgate now instead of 2. also it makes 1 sgate phx much better period.
On December 16 2010 21:30 MegaTerran wrote: I just cant understand one thing. If toss is so OP why Blizz increase their power in new patch making phonix build time faster?
This has little to do with the current state of the game in TvP as phoenix are rarely seen in the matchup as it is (and if, mostly only in the early game).
actually alot of toss started adding phoenix when terran gets viking for colussi, its been proven to be effective. the biggest issue with the new patch is that toss can do this off 1 sgate now instead of 2. also it makes 1 sgate phx much better period.
The Phoenix buff is gigantic. It destroys all terran expo or tech play. :-)
I have been experimenting with early tanks vs toss, and i have had some great sucess with it, i think that mech has its place, but may need some ghost reinforcments!
"Servy was on 6base, mana on 2. Servy lost. There is nothing more to say imo"
It was 2.5 bases to 1.5 as both players were mining out one, about to go to 3 to 1 as ServyOa was moving a new CC to the expo on the right, and soon would have been 3 to 0, completely breaking Mana. The problem with your opinion is it doesn’t give any insight into what happened. How did ServyOa lose? Magic?
ServyOa over extended. He got a little careless with his units. Mana laid some money storms and ServyOa showed poor control after his otherwise stellar game. He thought his next wave would be large enough to counter what was left of Mana’s force, or most likely, he didn’t even consider Mana would attack since Mana was getting crushed and had been on the defensive for so long. Mana went for one last desperation all-in (which is a different type of attack than the normal attacks that seek to undermine the economy – clearly ServyOa was expecting attacks at the tanked PDF) and luckily managed to get to the production. At that point, economy is meaningless as each wave has below threshold and eventually ServyOa would lose his production.
We see Hail Mary plays all the time and sometimes they work. All-in SVC attacks, desperation DTs, desperation Void Rays. It doesn’t mean anything. The only thing that is exceptional about the ServyOa loss is that it wasn’t to one of the typical knock out techs. So Mana got a fluke win by losing most battles except the last and taking the production away from an overwhelming economic advantage. So what? The point still stands, your the base theory of win, isn’t very intelligent – ‘ZOMG, Zerg didn’t a single combat unit, but did rapid expanded 7 times, and he still lost! Imba!!’
Does anyone who has seen the RE really think that ServyOa would have lost if he had just kept his army in tank range at the PDF for just a few more production cycles?
On December 17 2010 08:15 Lazyass wrote: The win percentages favouring Protoss are for Bronze and Silver. Bronze league stats for bronze league players. Please don’t balance the game off Silver calibre plays.
On December 17 2010 20:09 Lazyass wrote: "Servy was on 6base, mana on 2. Servy lost. There is nothing more to say imo"
It was 2.5 bases to 1.5 as both players were mining out one, about to go to 3 to 1 as ServyOa was moving a new CC to the expo on the right, and soon would have been 3 to 0, completely breaking Mana. The problem with your opinion is it doesn’t give any insight into what happened. How did ServyOa lose? Magic?
ServyOa over extended. He got a little careless with his units. Mana laid some money storms and ServyOa showed poor control after his otherwise stellar game. He thought his next wave would be large enough to counter what was left of Mana’s force, or most likely, he didn’t even consider Mana would attack since Mana was getting crushed and had been on the defensive for so long. Mana went for one last desperation all-in (which is a different type of attack than the normal attacks that seek to undermine the economy – clearly ServyOa was expecting attacks at the tanked PDF) and luckily managed to get to the production. At that point, economy is meaningless as each wave has below threshold and eventually ServyOa would lose his production.
We see Hail Mary plays all the time and sometimes they work. All-in SVC attacks, desperation DTs, desperation Void Rays. It doesn’t mean anything. The only thing that is exceptional about the ServyOa loss is that it wasn’t to one of the typical knock out techs. So Mana got a fluke win by losing most battles except the last and taking the production away from an overwhelming economic advantage. So what? The point still stands, your the base theory of win, isn’t very intelligent – ‘ZOMG, Zerg didn’t a single combat unit, but did rapid expanded 7 times, and he still lost! Imba!!’
Does anyone who has seen the RE really think that ServyOa would have lost if he had just kept his army in tank range at the PDF for just a few more production cycles?
At one point - after servyOa took out the gold - Mana was on 2 base, main mined out and expo nearly mined out. His opponent was on 5 bases, with main and natural mined out and the gold soon to follow.
You say that Mana lost most his battles except the last one. Still 2 bases worth of resources kept even against 3 bases worth of resources, one of them a gold. So despite having only converted less than two thirds of the resources into units, protoss was still even. Even though terran had so far done a great job fighting his battles and denying expansions. So much for P whining about the "ridiculous cost efficiency".
It also showcases the (in my eyes) major problems: P and T battle in the middle of the map. If T wins the engagement with ~25-40% of forces left), he can't do shit, because when he manages to approach any expansion, warpgates have cooled down and deliver a zealot HT force spot on that is enough to keep most remaining forces at bay. Terran is forced to retreat and can most of the time only trade his survivors to try and snipe a nexus. If P wins by the same margin, he can just walk up to the production facilities and end the game, as the units trickle out and are crushed 1 by 1 never doing ANY damage, because they usually fail to penetrate shields and shields regenerate faster than they can be shot down by the lonely reinforcements. A proxy pylon just seals the deal.
On December 17 2010 20:09 Lazyass wrote: "Servy was on 6base, mana on 2. Servy lost. There is nothing more to say imo"
It was 2.5 bases to 1.5 as both players were mining out one, about to go to 3 to 1 as ServyOa was moving a new CC to the expo on the right, and soon would have been 3 to 0, completely breaking Mana. The problem with your opinion is it doesn’t give any insight into what happened. How did ServyOa lose? Magic?
ServyOa over extended. He got a little careless with his units. Mana laid some money storms and ServyOa showed poor control after his otherwise stellar game. He thought his next wave would be large enough to counter what was left of Mana’s force, or most likely, he didn’t even consider Mana would attack since Mana was getting crushed and had been on the defensive for so long. Mana went for one last desperation all-in (which is a different type of attack than the normal attacks that seek to undermine the economy – clearly ServyOa was expecting attacks at the tanked PDF) and luckily managed to get to the production. At that point, economy is meaningless as each wave has below threshold and eventually ServyOa would lose his production.
We see Hail Mary plays all the time and sometimes they work. All-in SVC attacks, desperation DTs, desperation Void Rays. It doesn’t mean anything. The only thing that is exceptional about the ServyOa loss is that it wasn’t to one of the typical knock out techs. So Mana got a fluke win by losing most battles except the last and taking the production away from an overwhelming economic advantage. So what? The point still stands, your the base theory of win, isn’t very intelligent – ‘ZOMG, Zerg didn’t a single combat unit, but did rapid expanded 7 times, and he still lost! Imba!!’
Does anyone who has seen the RE really think that ServyOa would have lost if he had just kept his army in tank range at the PDF for just a few more production cycles?
At one point - after servyOa took out the gold - Mana was on 2 base, main mined out and expo nearly mined out. His opponent was on 5 bases, with main and natural mined out and the gold soon to follow.
You say that Mana lost most his battles except the last one. Still 2 bases worth of resources kept even against 3 bases worth of resources, one of them a gold. So despite having only converted less than two thirds of the resources into units, protoss was still even. Even though terran had so far done a great job fighting his battles and denying expansions. So much for P whining about the "ridiculous cost efficiency".
ServyOa would have won the game if he hadn't suicided many units during mid/lategame. Also his macro was awful later in the game, what's the point if you are ahead in bases if you stack 1,5k+ ressources?
People picking only replays where terran loses is one thing, but people picking games where the terran even has plain and simple terrible macro is ridiculous. What's next, somebody complaining about uber-imba voidrays raping his only-marauder army?
Well, if you have mined ~8k extra resources, does the 1.5k trust fund really matter that much? It means that you have turned over 6.5k resources more into units that your opponent.
Apart from that specific match, my point about the outcome of late game battles still stands.
On December 16 2010 21:30 MegaTerran wrote: I just cant understand one thing. If toss is so OP why Blizz increase their power in new patch making phonix build time faster?
This has little to do with the current state of the game in TvP as phoenix are rarely seen in the matchup as it is (and if, mostly only in the early game).
Havent watched a lot korean pvt i guess. Tester and sangho both use a phoenix colossi build, hence it's pretty popular on the ladder aswell.
On December 17 2010 12:27 j.schnieder wrote: I have been experimenting with early tanks vs toss, and i have had some great sucess with it, i think that mech has its place, but may need some ghost reinforcments!
Ghost and Tank production is more gas than you can get out of 2 base, let alone 1 base. Especially Tanks (won't need consant Ghost production) are very gas heavy for their role and build time.
Bio and Mech don't scale well in value in relation to the Protoss tech.
Bio scales the worst, generally losing to Chargelots, Colossi or Storm with Gateway units. Just Gateway units get demolished by Bio, although it can delay a Bio push with FF very effectively.
Mech does a little better, but especially Chargelots/Upgraded Colossi tear through it. With only 35 damage to Light it takes five sieged shots to kill one whole charging Zealot. Once the Zealot surrounds a Tank, any shots on it hurt the Tank more than the Zealot. In the Dreamhack finale (game 4 I think it was) the Terran player got critical mass Siege Tanks in the number of 10-12+ and got demolished by Chargelots and Storm.
I've been trying Air (into mass Air) and it seems to have some promise although the upcoming Observer/Phoenix changes worry me.
The main problem I see in TvP is how things scale as the game progresses. Early game T has an advantage with Bio, but if P stays alive (which isn't THAT hard) the advantage P has is huge because Bio scales terribly. Going Bio as T generally means you have to really hurt P within 10-12 minutes or be at a disadvantage.
Mech probably shines the most in the midgame, when the scariest stuff isn't as scary yet. Just Chargelots vs Tanks could be dealt with by Marine/Hellion support. The downside is Mech is so immobile. Thors are so slow and Hellions can't do much on their own aside from a drop.
Lategame though, a combination of Storm, Chargelots and Colossi vaporize anything on the ground. Anything the Colossi can't kill (e.g. the Siege Tank) the Chargelots will deal with.
Maybe Protoss has too many 'key' upgrades that throw the balance off. The only real 'key' upgrade for Terran is Stimpack. Siege Mode, Combat Shield, Concussive Shells are all good upgrades but aren't essential. Zealot speed, Thermal Lance and Storm, although all so expensive, change the game completely. Until they get them, P struggles with a lot of stuff.
When P gets all of them, there is no real weakness for T to exploit anymore. T can't tech to something to balance that out.
On December 16 2010 20:13 Dente wrote: The problem is that protoss will win a 200vs200 fight most of the time. Then they can reinforce so MUCH QUICKER and the terran will 100% lose. Planetarys will not safe your production buildings like raxes and factories. A smart toss will move into your main and there is no way coming back. Your first new units will be slaughtered while the protoss is happily reinforcing.
True to some extent, some possible solutions:
a) Force units that can NOT be warped in. This is why I also think T needs to incorporate mech more. Mech forces air and air needs quite some time to be re-built. b) Terran is much more mobile which is why I don't see why terran shouldn't try to fight at the expansions of protoss while outexpanding him. Some maps don't allow outexpanding, which can cause problems indeed.
Zerg also can reinforce insanely fast, nevertheless you don't read that many complaints about instantly reinforced 200/200 zerg-forces. Fixing this would require changing the whole warptech-mechanism, I doubt this is do-able since it touches core gameplay mechanics.
rofl mech doesnt force air at all mech is just fucking terrible against protoss
I love how you refuse to use the latest statistics. The Protoss favour has decreased with every patch and every new set of statistics released, and it also decreases with rank (which your own stats show). Also, please refer to the win percentage of the diamond 1500+. Sure, I sometimes refer to anything sub 1000 Diamond as Bronze, but that is conceptual and obviously not literal. (It also isn’t bullshit, although I am sure Bronze players who love Bronze stats will start to cry about that) Also, please refer to the race win percentages for specific maps and compare how many maps have racial bias to the maps in tournament pools. The supposed 10% Protoss favour claimed by some of these posts only applies to Bronze league. (Since I will be taken to task for accuracy, I have to include: and possibly Silver.) Bronze league stats for Bronze level players.
On December 16 2010 20:13 Dente wrote: The problem is that protoss will win a 200vs200 fight most of the time. Then they can reinforce so MUCH QUICKER and the terran will 100% lose. Planetarys will not safe your production buildings like raxes and factories. A smart toss will move into your main and there is no way coming back. Your first new units will be slaughtered while the protoss is happily reinforcing.
True to some extent, some possible solutions:
a) Force units that can NOT be warped in. This is why I also think T needs to incorporate mech more. Mech forces air and air needs quite some time to be re-built. b) Terran is much more mobile which is why I don't see why terran shouldn't try to fight at the expansions of protoss while outexpanding him. Some maps don't allow outexpanding, which can cause problems indeed.
Zerg also can reinforce insanely fast, nevertheless you don't read that many complaints about instantly reinforced 200/200 zerg-forces. Fixing this would require changing the whole warptech-mechanism, I doubt this is do-able since it touches core gameplay mechanics.
rofl mech doesnt force air at all mech is just fucking terrible against protoss
Thors != mech as a whole
But yeah nothing terran can do forces toss air. Because toss air can't actually compete with marines/turrets/vikings.
On December 16 2010 20:13 Dente wrote: The problem is that protoss will win a 200vs200 fight most of the time. Then they can reinforce so MUCH QUICKER and the terran will 100% lose. Planetarys will not safe your production buildings like raxes and factories. A smart toss will move into your main and there is no way coming back. Your first new units will be slaughtered while the protoss is happily reinforcing.
True to some extent, some possible solutions:
a) Force units that can NOT be warped in. This is why I also think T needs to incorporate mech more. Mech forces air and air needs quite some time to be re-built. b) Terran is much more mobile which is why I don't see why terran shouldn't try to fight at the expansions of protoss while outexpanding him. Some maps don't allow outexpanding, which can cause problems indeed.
Zerg also can reinforce insanely fast, nevertheless you don't read that many complaints about instantly reinforced 200/200 zerg-forces. Fixing this would require changing the whole warptech-mechanism, I doubt this is do-able since it touches core gameplay mechanics.
rofl mech doesnt force air at all mech is just fucking terrible against protoss
Thors != mech as a whole
I think he means that tanks + hellions can be beaten by robo + gateway. Air is not necessary to beat it .
On December 13 2010 23:09 Nakama wrote: Im a 2300 Diamond T and my main Problem in Tvp is the Zealot.I would say that i play a macro oriented style and i often try to get my 3 up as soon as possible normaly it works good 4me( i open with 1/1/1 sjow style) In the beginning the zelot isnt a big Problem, u can kite it easily and a few tanks shut down most agresion toss can throw at u in the early stages of the game. However when the game last longer i simply die to mass zealot. When both have their 3 up it becomes rly hard 4 me tp spend my mins in time and i often end up having 1000 overmins and 0 gas. Marines just die to collosi or ht in this stage of the game and arent cost effective if u dont mangae to kill all high tier units at the beginning of the fight. The toss however can mass whatever high tech unit he wants and spend his overmins very easily into mass zealot, which once they have legs are the best dps u can get in my opinion. So while im having trouble to counter ht or colossi and spend most my resources into ghosts or vikings, my bioball jsut dies to spammed zealots. The only asnwer i can think of are upgraded Hellions, but they didnt work well 4 me the times i tried them. I only win these kind of games if the toss decides to attack me and i win the fight. If he decides to play defensivly i jsut dont stand a chance, every drop just gets shut down casue he can wrap in 5 lots/hts and defend it till reinforcments arrive-
Tl;dr: Zealots are a way to good mineral dump + the overhelming strengh of high tier toss units makes it nearly impossible 4 me to kill defensive toss palyers Conclusion: Kill him in 15 min or die
absolutely dead on. People think its HTs or Collosus that are the source of the problem in TvP but its actually the zealot. Terran's answer to zealots is marines which get crushed mid-late game, ive also tried blue flame hellions and theyre quite bad in anything but a drop situation or an early game engagement. So some people have gone very marauder heavy to tank the storm/collosus dmg but if a toss throws in 5-10 zealots, its just a nightmare. It takes 15 marauder shots to kill a single zealot....so they essentially act as a meat shield because the AI targets the zealots over stalkers/sentries etc etc.
I've been a high-lvl plat random player since the game was released, but recently I decided to focus on Protoss. Since then, I was able to advance to Diamond league and really improved my play. I really worked on my built and focused on early agression kind of play.
Korean 4-gate really works well against protoss. 4gate with Gateway at 10 really works well against zerg, and I win 75% of my PvZ games.
But PvT.. MAN ! It seems that early agression is just not a viable option against them. I've tried many differents builds and it is just not working because Terran Infantry > Protoss Gateway Units. The only way early agression can work is if I manage to put a proxy pylon in his base or sneak in when the supply depot is lowered.
So early agression, great in PvP and PvZ, but sucks in PvT.
In TvP I always go Mech off of a 1 rax FE. Tank/Hellion smashes everything on the ground and i keep continuous production of marines to put in bunkers and act as the spider mines from sc1. before ever going for a push i wait for plus 2 vehicle damage upgrade because your really need that 60 damage vs armored for tanks to shred stalkers and collossi super cost effectively and if he's going HT it will help you to suicide a few hellions to pick off a handful of HTs if they are clumped that always makes the toss rage. I also always get out 1 dropship and i leave the window open for ghosts is he really is stubborn about trying to win the ground battle. If he has the critical 7-8 collossi numbers I will crank out 1-2 thors because they are really the best thing in the Terran arsenal for killing collossi fast even when compared to vikings.
Before I push out after having saturated a third and maybe a 4rth and after repelling a lot of attack i make sure i have 7-8 factories (1-2 with reactors), 3 starports all with reactors and 3 barracks all with reactors to make sure than if i run into surprise air switch i can get out as much vikings as possible really fast. If it's close positions i usually just slow turret push the whole game long with as much patience as possible using hellions all over the map to deny expansions.
People think Mech is trash vs Protoss and i can admit i really would like some Mech buffs but really it's all about getting that 60 vs armored damage on the siege tanks as fast as possible. collossi and stalkers evaporate immediately upon getting in range. Mech is also way more difficult to master than mass-bio-stim-attack-drop all over your face, because really you need to be spot on with the upgrades and expansions to get them ASAP to afford everything and it really depends on how tactically smart you are placing your tanks bunkers and using your hellions because it's the positioning that will either make or break you in that a good position you might lose several tanks and he drops his whole effin army or you lose your whole army and he warp-in rapes you.
The thing I see most often with in TVP matchups, from the lowest to the highest levels, is terran players getting stuck on MMM balls with insufficient mech and air support. The issue, I think, is that in the early game players tend to get a lot of bunkers to dump their minerals, and it makes them resistant to transitioning out of barracks-heavy units in the late game.
As a protoss player, I will tell you straight away that more than four or five tanks backing up your push can be devastating. The more tanks you have, the fewer colossi a Protoss player can have (they will be using their robo time on immortals if they know what's good for them.) In addition, and this is very micro-intensive, but a player with really clutch EMPs can easily beat a protoss ball if they rely on templar. (Or immortals, for that matter; why don't more Terran emp immortals?) So a mid to late-game force with more of an emphasis on ghosts and tanks with marauders acting as a meat shield (I agree with an earlier poster, you really need to transition away from marines in the late game) is pretty viable against a protoss ball.
The terran needs to push slowly and deliberately, leapfrogging his tanks and constantly reinforcing, and picking off templar at every opportunity, as you frequently see in the proleagues, and that push becomes harder and harder to stop. Again, I cannot emphasize enough, tanks. With that 60 armored damage they will chew through a stalker-heavy army, which is most protoss armies.
Overall, I don't see a lot of creative play from the Terran that call protoss imba. They tend to stick to MMM balls, neglecting tank leapfrogging, neglecting ravens (seriously? 3 ravens at high energy can drop pdds to great, amazing effect against those stalker-heavy armies, and I know you have to maneuver them around templar, so maneuver them around templar) neglecting just a few cloaked banshees in the mix to snipe, neglecting good use of emp, neglecting a few blue-flame hellions to eat zealots for breakfast, neglecting to realize that MMMs are better in smaller groups and get comparatively weaker the larger the numbers get. Neglecting ANY of these things (I think all of these things put together would also be a problem :| ). And therefore, when they get to the late game they still have an early-game army, and of course the toss is going to roll them.
tl;dr: I think Raiznhell has the right idea when it comes to good TVP; lots of factories, fewer barracks, the slow push, with turrets and bunkers and autorepair.
Silly protoss - Tanks dont force immortals, the just force more chargelots, tanks < chargelots the base mineral dump of toss, tanks do little damage to chargelots, which engage nearly instantly, then the tanks kill your own units while trying to kill the zealots! Such an awesome strategy! If tanks did 50 damage to zealots still, then maybe this would be ok, but right now it still takes 5tank shots to kill 1 zealot, zealots close within one round of fire, so you kill maybe 6 zealots being generous before the protoss army engages with 10tanks (which is quite a large number to mass up) and this is assuming you can convince protoss to attack straight into your entire army since your super immobile and lose the ability to kite as well! Then since you are so helpful in killing your own meatshield its not like before the protoss army is ripping up your glass cannon expensive tanks which die basically instantly.
Its only newb protoss with no zealots that get beat by tanks.
This is why you see bio into the late game.
Ravens vs HTs? are you kidding me, if you have alot of HT you have few stalkers, casting range of PDD is short and casting range of feedback is long, there goes a really expensive unit potentially for nothing.
On December 18 2010 04:21 statikg wrote: Silly protoss - Tanks dont force immortals, the just force more chargelots, tanks < chargelots the base mineral dump of toss, tanks do little damage to chargelots, which engage nearly instantly, then the tanks kill your own units while trying to kill the zealots! Such an awesome strategy! If tanks did 50 damage to zealots still, then maybe this would be ok, but right now it still takes 5tank shots to kill 1 zealot, zealots close within one round of fire, so you kill maybe 6 zealots being generous before the protoss army engages with 10tanks (which is quite a large number to mass up) and this is assuming you can convince protoss to attack straight into your entire army since your super immobile and lose the ability to kite as well! Then since you are so helpful in killing your own meatshield its not like before the protoss army is ripping up your glass cannon expensive tanks which die basically instantly.
Its only newb protoss with no zealots that get beat by tanks.
This is why you see bio into the late game.
Ravens vs HTs? are you kidding me, if you have alot of HT you have few stalkers, casting range of PDD is short and casting range of feedback is long, there goes a really expensive unit potentially for nothing.
When you go tanks you also go hellions as well because you know Zealots are going to bust your tanks and Hellions make zealots a joke even with charge and the bunkers with marines also stop alot of the zealots from charging your tanks.
He is right though that a lot of protoss will see a lot of tanks and go right for 2 robo immortal but if any protoss reads this...DON'T. I have never lost a TvP going Mech because of immortals they are just downright bad against Mech which is extremely counter-intuitive. I have literally had something around 12+immortals with a bunch of chargelots smash into my Bunker/hellion/tank position and hardly take out anything before being melted and yeah...not even any ghosts so i can only imagine the hurt of immortals against ghostmech.
On December 18 2010 03:11 Vega62a wrote: The thing I see most often with in TVP matchups, from the lowest to the highest levels, is terran players getting stuck on MMM balls with insufficient mech and air support. The issue, I think, is that in the early game players tend to get a lot of bunkers to dump their minerals, and it makes them resistant to transitioning out of barracks-heavy units in the late game.
As a protoss player, I will tell you straight away that more than four or five tanks backing up your push can be devastating. The more tanks you have, the fewer colossi a Protoss player can have (they will be using their robo time on immortals if they know what's good for them.) In addition, and this is very micro-intensive, but a player with really clutch EMPs can easily beat a protoss ball if they rely on templar. (Or immortals, for that matter; why don't more Terran emp immortals?) So a mid to late-game force with more of an emphasis on ghosts and tanks with marauders acting as a meat shield (I agree with an earlier poster, you really need to transition away from marines in the late game) is pretty viable against a protoss ball.
The terran needs to push slowly and deliberately, leapfrogging his tanks and constantly reinforcing, and picking off templar at every opportunity, as you frequently see in the proleagues, and that push becomes harder and harder to stop. Again, I cannot emphasize enough, tanks. With that 60 armored damage they will chew through a stalker-heavy army, which is most protoss armies.
Overall, I don't see a lot of creative play from the Terran that call protoss imba. They tend to stick to MMM balls, neglecting tank leapfrogging, neglecting ravens (seriously? 3 ravens at high energy can drop pdds to great, amazing effect against those stalker-heavy armies, and I know you have to maneuver them around templar, so maneuver them around templar) neglecting just a few cloaked banshees in the mix to snipe, neglecting good use of emp, neglecting a few blue-flame hellions to eat zealots for breakfast, neglecting to realize that MMMs are better in smaller groups and get comparatively weaker the larger the numbers get. Neglecting ANY of these things (I think all of these things put together would also be a problem :| ). And therefore, when they get to the late game they still have an early-game army, and of course the toss is going to roll them.
tl;dr: I think Raiznhell has the right idea when it comes to good TVP; lots of factories, fewer barracks, the slow push, with turrets and bunkers and autorepair.
This may be the most incorrect thing I have ever read in my entire life. The thing I see most often with in TVP matchups, from the lowest to the highest levels, is terran players getting stuck on MMM balls with insufficient mech and air support. The issue, I think, is that in the early game players tend to get a lot of bunkers to dump their minerals, and it makes them resistant to transitioning out of barracks-heavy units in the late game.
There is no "getting stuck" on MMM balls. MMM balls work while mech does not, it is as simple as that. It's not like they just go infantry because they are not used to mech, it just doesn't work. I implore anyone to prove me wrong about mech not working (aside from little gimmicky timing attacks such as the 2xthor attack) by posting some replays, and not just 1, a couple. I would love to see this because I would love to not use MMM every game against Toss. As for getting a lot of bunkers to dump minerals, no. No one does that. I do not know what you are watching, but it can't be SC2 because no one goes "Well I have 400 extra minerals, I think I am short on bunkers".
As a protoss player, I will tell you straight away that more than four or five tanks backing up your push can be devastating. The more tanks you have, the fewer colossi a Protoss player can have (they will be using their robo time on immortals if they know what's good for them.)
As a protoss player, I would assume you know that colossi maul tanks just as well as immortals do. The point is that when T has to add tanks, P does not have to change anything. Nothing at all. They can do the standard build and it will work just fine, which may be the problem. Zealots/Sentry + Stalker + Colossi will beat Tank/Marine/Marauder/Vac just as well as anything else. The more tanks T has, the less infantry (due to higher supply / higher cost) which just makes the situation that much worse. That is compounded by the fact that either they are coming 1 at a time from your factory the you needed for your starport, meaning if all your tanks die they wont be coming back any time soon, or you invested in another factory which is a serious drain on resources for the damage they cause. The problem is that when you sacrifice infantry production for the tanks, there is no reason, because they do comparable damage, and infantry are more mobile, durable, and versatile. In addition, and this is very micro-intensive, but a player with really clutch EMPs can easily beat a protoss ball if they rely on templar. (Or immortals, for that matter; why don't more Terran emp immortals?) So a mid to late-game force with more of an emphasis on ghosts and tanks with marauders acting as a meat shield (I agree with an earlier poster, you really need to transition away from marines in the late game) is pretty viable against a protoss ball.
People used to play the "Ghost-Tank" builds. I remember it from beta and it may have bled into retail as well. You know why you don't see it anymore? Because it does not work. Ghost-Tank is an amazing drain on gas, doesn't accurately counter colossus anyway, and leaves a gaping hole for air units to exploit. Ghost/Tank/Marauder will eat through gas like crazy, be extremely vulnerable to heavy zealot/colossus builds (unless you have like 40 ghosts, but then you have a max of like 8 marauders and a tank for support). People say that ghosts are good units, but for their cost, after that EMP goes off they just are not worth it. I've said this for so long I am blue in the face, there is a HUGE difference between killing units straight up (storm), and just leaving them damaged (EMP). The difference is the DPS changes. Marines die, lowering DPS, and everything else is damaged. EMP doesn't lower DPS unless templar are specifically hit, but do leave everything hit damaged (though I can argue that the higher HP/shield of toss units make the damage taken more negligable). And people do EMP immortals, but that just removes their ability to make tanks complete shit, they still walk all over them.
The terran needs to push slowly and deliberately, leapfrogging his tanks and constantly reinforcing, and picking off templar at every opportunity, as you frequently see in the proleagues, and that push becomes harder and harder to stop. Again, I cannot emphasize enough, tanks. With that 60 armored damage they will chew through a stalker-heavy army, which is most protoss armies.
Sure. Lets go back to the slow push. I'm going to reference back to BW because yes, the same concepts do apply to show the differences that make or break the strategy. In BW, the Terran pushes out, used mines/buildings/map placement (ledges, chokes) to supplement the push. The power come from that if the P attacks, he either has to dedicate himself to it, or lose tons of units to tank fire retreating. It isn't the same now. Spider mines are gone, so zealot losses are very much less severe. Tanks do less damage, so that's less dead units on approach / retreating. Colossus, which are the big problem, have 9 range, 350hp (combined), and are mobile. This means that unless the tanks are all lined up, there is a large chance that all your tanks are not going to be able to hit the colossus at the same time. Having 3 tanks his colossus, and 4 hit just gateway units is really going to get your push mauled. If they have templar, how do you suppose they are going to get picked off? Tank shots? EMP? Snipe? Only one of those really outright kills them (snipe) and the rest just leave a templar there, which stops storm sure, but if you don't have tons of infantry in the first place, why have storm? That and 60 armored damage? 60? That changed so long ago its insane. Its 50. 50. That means stalkers take another shot to kill, colossus take another shot if you let even 1 shield point regenerate (not to mention tank splash can only hit 1 colossus at once if its focus fired on them, which it should be). How is that even going to theoretically be cost effective?
Overall, I don't see a lot of creative play from the Terran that call protoss imba. They tend to stick to MMM balls, neglecting tank leapfrogging, neglecting ravens (seriously? 3 ravens at high energy can drop pdds to great, amazing effect against those stalker-heavy armies, and I know you have to maneuver them around templar, so maneuver them around templar) neglecting just a few cloaked banshees in the mix to snipe, neglecting good use of emp, neglecting a few blue-flame hellions to eat zealots for breakfast, neglecting to realize that MMMs are better in smaller groups and get comparatively weaker the larger the numbers get. Neglecting ANY of these things (I think all of these things put together would also be a problem :| ). And therefore, when they get to the late game they still have an early-game army, and of course the toss is going to roll them.
Once again. T uses MMM balls because they work. It's not "creative play" when you stop using stuff that works to try and force strategies that have failed in the past. That is just embarassing your opponent. If you can find something legitimate, great, I would love to play something besides MMM against Toss. But people have tried, and aside from quick little timings or cheese, mech just does not deliver, not yet anyway. That and you can't even remotely rely on "creative play" to win you your bread and butter macro games. There should be no point where a races chances at a macro game relies on genius movies and creative play to win every time.
As for ravens, I don't know what you are expecting, but so far you have listed tanks, ghosts, marauders, and ravens to use. I HOPE you don't suspect this all to to be done in unison, because I suspect that if it is possible to suck that much gas into both casters (you'll pretty much have to have vacs too, so that's all three), upgrades, and constant tank/rauder production, then it will take tons of bases, so you can just transition into that because you'll need to something to hold the line before then. Sure PDD is great, but it sure is not as game changing as storm, and so far is only used when the spare raven is flying around or in timing attacks.
Cloaked banshees are great, they are probably the next big step in terran metagame as people realize how to exploit their great ground damage. But that is more gas. If you mean using them with your tank/Marauder/Raven/ghost combo, then you are out of your mind. If you mean use them with standard MMM balls, or, in some form of thor timing push, people have been doing that for weeks now. So what then? You say terran neglects things. You say we need tanks for general fighting, marauders to survive storm, clutch EMP's to even the odds, cloaked banshees to put on the hurt, blue-flame hellions when the zealots come (but just a few, like you said) but it should be painfully obvious that all this is not realistic at all. All of those units require gas, and most of them require lots of it. That limits any form of transition into something that must be planned out. What if there is a deviation? What if toss goes some form of mass chargelot garbage? You say we need to use our units better, pull out some blue flame hellions, but where do these come from? You say we need to use tanks more, so its either we have tons of factories, or tank production stops. Even if we have tons of factories, we can either react with hellions, which means we start blue-flame when we suspect zealots (which takes a HUGE chunk of gas for something with such specific application) and it delays anything else that takes gas and burns resources. You say use a small amount? That does not cut it. Hellions are strange, either you have a lot and they do a lot of damage to their target unit (light compositions), or you have a few of them for harass and they nothing unless your opponent messes up. Hellions are not gold against zealots anyway, their splash in linear and the damage comes in slow bursts, leaving tons of half HP zealots to charge into a line where hellions have effectively no splash at all, and then they get raped by zealots and tank splash. It is pretty clear that your knowledge of terran mechanics is far far worse than you are leading us to believe, so please, try to know what you are talking about.
On December 18 2010 03:11 Vega62a wrote: The thing I see most often with in TVP matchups, from the lowest to the highest levels, is terran players getting stuck on MMM balls with insufficient mech and air support. The issue, I think, is that in the early game players tend to get a lot of bunkers to dump their minerals, and it makes them resistant to transitioning out of barracks-heavy units in the late game.
As a protoss player, I will tell you straight away that more than four or five tanks backing up your push can be devastating. The more tanks you have, the fewer colossi a Protoss player can have (they will be using their robo time on immortals if they know what's good for them.) In addition, and this is very micro-intensive, but a player with really clutch EMPs can easily beat a protoss ball if they rely on templar. (Or immortals, for that matter; why don't more Terran emp immortals?) So a mid to late-game force with more of an emphasis on ghosts and tanks with marauders acting as a meat shield (I agree with an earlier poster, you really need to transition away from marines in the late game) is pretty viable against a protoss ball.
The terran needs to push slowly and deliberately, leapfrogging his tanks and constantly reinforcing, and picking off templar at every opportunity, as you frequently see in the proleagues, and that push becomes harder and harder to stop. Again, I cannot emphasize enough, tanks. With that 60 armored damage they will chew through a stalker-heavy army, which is most protoss armies.
Overall, I don't see a lot of creative play from the Terran that call protoss imba. They tend to stick to MMM balls, neglecting tank leapfrogging, neglecting ravens (seriously? 3 ravens at high energy can drop pdds to great, amazing effect against those stalker-heavy armies, and I know you have to maneuver them around templar, so maneuver them around templar) neglecting just a few cloaked banshees in the mix to snipe, neglecting good use of emp, neglecting a few blue-flame hellions to eat zealots for breakfast, neglecting to realize that MMMs are better in smaller groups and get comparatively weaker the larger the numbers get. Neglecting ANY of these things (I think all of these things put together would also be a problem :| ). And therefore, when they get to the late game they still have an early-game army, and of course the toss is going to roll them.
tl;dr: I think Raiznhell has the right idea when it comes to good TVP; lots of factories, fewer barracks, the slow push, with turrets and bunkers and autorepair.
This may be the most incorrect thing I have ever read in my entire life. The thing I see most often with in TVP matchups, from the lowest to the highest levels, is terran players getting stuck on MMM balls with insufficient mech and air support. The issue, I think, is that in the early game players tend to get a lot of bunkers to dump their minerals, and it makes them resistant to transitioning out of barracks-heavy units in the late game.
There is no "getting stuck" on MMM balls. MMM balls work while mech does not, it is as simple as that. It's not like they just go infantry because they are not used to mech, it just doesn't work. I implore anyone to prove me wrong about mech not working (aside from little gimmicky timing attacks such as the 2xthor attack) by posting some replays, and not just 1, a couple. I would love to see this because I would love to not use MMM every game against Toss. As for getting a lot of bunkers to dump minerals, no. No one does that. I do not know what you are watching, but it can't be SC2 because no one goes "Well I have 400 extra minerals, I think I am short on bunkers".
As a protoss player, I will tell you straight away that more than four or five tanks backing up your push can be devastating. The more tanks you have, the fewer colossi a Protoss player can have (they will be using their robo time on immortals if they know what's good for them.)
As a protoss player, I would assume you know that colossi maul tanks just as well as immortals do. The point is that when T has to add tanks, P does not have to change anything. Nothing at all. They can do the standard build and it will work just fine, which may be the problem. Zealots/Sentry + Stalker + Colossi will beat Tank/Marine/Marauder/Vac just as well as anything else. The more tanks T has, the less infantry (due to higher supply / higher cost) which just makes the situation that much worse. That is compounded by the fact that either they are coming 1 at a time from your factory the you needed for your starport, meaning if all your tanks die they wont be coming back any time soon, or you invested in another factory which is a serious drain on resources for the damage they cause. The problem is that when you sacrifice infantry production for the tanks, there is no reason, because they do comparable damage, and infantry are more mobile, durable, and versatile. In addition, and this is very micro-intensive, but a player with really clutch EMPs can easily beat a protoss ball if they rely on templar. (Or immortals, for that matter; why don't more Terran emp immortals?) So a mid to late-game force with more of an emphasis on ghosts and tanks with marauders acting as a meat shield (I agree with an earlier poster, you really need to transition away from marines in the late game) is pretty viable against a protoss ball.
People used to play the "Ghost-Tank" builds. I remember it from beta and it may have bled into retail as well. You know why you don't see it anymore? Because it does not work. Ghost-Tank is an amazing drain on gas, doesn't accurately counter colossus anyway, and leaves a gaping hole for air units to exploit. Ghost/Tank/Marauder will eat through gas like crazy, be extremely vulnerable to heavy zealot/colossus builds (unless you have like 40 ghosts, but then you have a max of like 8 marauders and a tank for support). People say that ghosts are good units, but for their cost, after that EMP goes off they just are not worth it. I've said this for so long I am blue in the face, there is a HUGE difference between killing units straight up (storm), and just leaving them damaged (EMP). The difference is the DPS changes. Marines die, lowering DPS, and everything else is damaged. EMP doesn't lower DPS unless templar are specifically hit, but do leave everything hit damaged (though I can argue that the higher HP/shield of toss units make the damage taken more negligable). And people do EMP immortals, but that just removes their ability to make tanks complete shit, they still walk all over them.
The terran needs to push slowly and deliberately, leapfrogging his tanks and constantly reinforcing, and picking off templar at every opportunity, as you frequently see in the proleagues, and that push becomes harder and harder to stop. Again, I cannot emphasize enough, tanks. With that 60 armored damage they will chew through a stalker-heavy army, which is most protoss armies.
Sure. Lets go back to the slow push. I'm going to reference back to BW because yes, the same concepts do apply to show the differences that make or break the strategy. In BW, the Terran pushes out, used mines/buildings/map placement (ledges, chokes) to supplement the push. The power come from that if the P attacks, he either has to dedicate himself to it, or lose tons of units to tank fire retreating. It isn't the same now. Spider mines are gone, so zealot losses are very much less severe. Tanks do less damage, so that's less dead units on approach / retreating. Colossus, which are the big problem, have 9 range, 350hp (combined), and are mobile. This means that unless the tanks are all lined up, there is a large chance that all your tanks are not going to be able to hit the colossus at the same time. Having 3 tanks his colossus, and 4 hit just gateway units is really going to get your push mauled. If they have templar, how do you suppose they are going to get picked off? Tank shots? EMP? Snipe? Only one of those really outright kills them (snipe) and the rest just leave a templar there, which stops storm sure, but if you don't have tons of infantry in the first place, why have storm? That and 60 armored damage? 60? That changed so long ago its insane. Its 50. 50. That means stalkers take another shot to kill, colossus take another shot if you let even 1 shield point regenerate (not to mention tank splash can only hit 1 colossus at once if its focus fired on them, which it should be). How is that even going to theoretically be cost effective?
Overall, I don't see a lot of creative play from the Terran that call protoss imba. They tend to stick to MMM balls, neglecting tank leapfrogging, neglecting ravens (seriously? 3 ravens at high energy can drop pdds to great, amazing effect against those stalker-heavy armies, and I know you have to maneuver them around templar, so maneuver them around templar) neglecting just a few cloaked banshees in the mix to snipe, neglecting good use of emp, neglecting a few blue-flame hellions to eat zealots for breakfast, neglecting to realize that MMMs are better in smaller groups and get comparatively weaker the larger the numbers get. Neglecting ANY of these things (I think all of these things put together would also be a problem :| ). And therefore, when they get to the late game they still have an early-game army, and of course the toss is going to roll them.
Once again. T uses MMM balls because they work. It's not "creative play" when you stop using stuff that works to try and force strategies that have failed in the past. That is just embarassing your opponent. If you can find something legitimate, great, I would love to play something besides MMM against Toss. But people have tried, and aside from quick little timings or cheese, mech just does not deliver, not yet anyway. That and you can't even remotely rely on "creative play" to win you your bread and butter macro games. There should be no point where a races chances at a macro game relies on genius movies and creative play to win every time.
As for ravens, I don't know what you are expecting, but so far you have listed tanks, ghosts, marauders, and ravens to use. I HOPE you don't suspect this all to to be done in unison, because I suspect that if it is possible to suck that much gas into both casters (you'll pretty much have to have vacs too, so that's all three), upgrades, and constant tank/rauder production, then it will take tons of bases, so you can just transition into that because you'll need to something to hold the line before then. Sure PDD is great, but it sure is not as game changing as storm, and so far is only used when the spare raven is flying around or in timing attacks.
Cloaked banshees are great, they are probably the next big step in terran metagame as people realize how to exploit their great ground damage. But that is more gas. If you mean using them with your tank/Marauder/Raven/ghost combo, then you are out of your mind. If you mean use them with standard MMM balls, or, in some form of thor timing push, people have been doing that for weeks now. So what then? You say terran neglects things. You say we need tanks for general fighting, marauders to survive storm, clutch EMP's to even the odds, cloaked banshees to put on the hurt, blue-flame hellions when the zealots come (but just a few, like you said) but it should be painfully obvious that all this is not realistic at all. All of those units require gas, and most of them require lots of it. That limits any form of transition into something that must be planned out. What if there is a deviation? What if toss goes some form of mass chargelot garbage? You say we need to use our units better, pull out some blue flame hellions, but where do these come from? You say we need to use tanks more, so its either we have tons of factories, or tank production stops. Even if we have tons of factories, we can either react with hellions, which means we start blue-flame when we suspect zealots (which takes a HUGE chunk of gas for something with such specific application) and it delays anything else that takes gas and burns resources. You say use a small amount? That does not cut it. Hellions are strange, either you have a lot and they do a lot of damage to their target unit (light compositions), or you have a few of them for harass and they nothing unless your opponent messes up. Hellions are not gold against zealots anyway, their splash in linear and the damage comes in slow bursts, leaving tons of half HP zealots to charge into a line where hellions have effectively no splash at all, and then they get raped by zealots and tank splash. It is pretty clear that your knowledge of terran mechanics is far far worse than you are leading us to believe, so please, try to know what you are talking about.
a lot of flaws in logic in this post just dont have the time to write 20 paragraphs here
On December 18 2010 04:21 statikg wrote: Silly protoss - Tanks dont force immortals, the just force more chargelots, tanks < chargelots the base mineral dump of toss, tanks do little damage to chargelots, which engage nearly instantly, then the tanks kill your own units while trying to kill the zealots! Such an awesome strategy! If tanks did 50 damage to zealots still, then maybe this would be ok, but right now it still takes 5tank shots to kill 1 zealot, zealots close within one round of fire, so you kill maybe 6 zealots being generous before the protoss army engages with 10tanks (which is quite a large number to mass up) and this is assuming you can convince protoss to attack straight into your entire army since your super immobile and lose the ability to kite as well! Then since you are so helpful in killing your own meatshield its not like before the protoss army is ripping up your glass cannon expensive tanks which die basically instantly.
Its only newb protoss with no zealots that get beat by tanks.
This is why you see bio into the late game.
Ravens vs HTs? are you kidding me, if you have alot of HT you have few stalkers, casting range of PDD is short and casting range of feedback is long, there goes a really expensive unit potentially for nothing.
When you go tanks you also go hellions as well because you know Zealots are going to bust your tanks and Hellions make zealots a joke even with charge and the bunkers with marines also stop alot of the zealots from charging your tanks.
He is right though that a lot of protoss will see a lot of tanks and go right for 2 robo immortal but if any protoss reads this...DON'T. I have never lost a TvP going Mech because of immortals they are just downright bad against Mech which is extremely counter-intuitive. I have literally had something around 12+immortals with a bunch of chargelots smash into my Bunker/hellion/tank position and hardly take out anything before being melted and yeah...not even any ghosts so i can only imagine the hurt of immortals against ghostmech.
Sorry for the double post, this apparently came up while writing my book of a reply.
When you go tanks you also go hellions as well because you know Zealots are going to bust your tanks and Hellions make zealots a joke even with charge and the bunkers with marines also stop alot of the zealots from charging your tanks.
Yes you go hellions. I assume you mean going pure mech so you have 3-5 factories off two bases, usually 2 pumping tanks and the rest of hellions or some mix of that depending on gas/what you need. If you make hellions a pure part of your composition, sure, I will agree that it beats a heavy zealot composition, but not as well as you are letting on. With charge, they attack right after the first tank shots and some will melt from the blue flame, but after that the remainders are lined up on your hellions and take barely any splash. Good players will move the hellions back, rebunching the zealots so they die in the next volley. But in the time, tanks have fired a second volley (if you didnt focus tanks on something else, congrats you just splashed half your hellions and wasted 6+ seconds on firing time, you probably lost the fight). Even after that, no one is going to go such an absurd amount of zealots that it cuts into other things, so youll still have stalkers + sentry + usually colo with a couple of immortals to deal with, all of which hellions are 100% garbage against.
He is right though that a lot of protoss will see a lot of tanks and go right for 2 robo immortal but if any protoss reads this...DON'T. I have never lost a TvP going Mech because of immortals they are just downright bad against Mech which is extremely counter-intuitive. I have literally had something around 12+immortals with a bunch of chargelots smash into my Bunker/hellion/tank position and hardly take out anything before being melted and yeah...not even any ghosts so i can only imagine the hurt of immortals against ghostmech.
I am curious to know at what level you play, because most of this seems like bunk. If you really want to stick it to me, you'll post some replays because I would really (as I have said earlier) love to see a good macro mech build that works at higher levels. I have never seen protoss stop colossus production to switch to pure immortals, so I don't know where that comes from, they only have a couple sprinkled in against me, which still whore up my tank shots if I don't FF right away. You also say immortals are down right bad against mech, which leads me to believe you have no idea of their role. They aren't supposed to be the main fighting unit. They are supposed to absorb hits. Hardened shields makes it a nightmare for tanks (and to a lesser extent thors) because of the insane cooldown on tank shots. So they send 2-3 immortals out first to take the first tank shots, and magically you have done maybe a max of 50 damage to their entire army in your first tank volley, and you still have half shield immortals that do 50 damage coming at you. Sure your other units clean up, but immortals are never the main fighting unit, and any protoss that plays that way is probably bad. You also seem to ascribe to the slow pushing mentality, which is cool and all, but how do you not just get backstabbed and lose? I am curious to know how you are not just picked apart by colossus, drops, and mobility issues unless they let you get into position, say, right outside their nat, in which case they screwed up.
On December 18 2010 05:42 cilinder007 wrote: a lot of flaws in logic in this post just dont have the time to write 20 paragraphs here
So you take offense to what I have said but do not have the means to respond? There have been no proofs to your claim so you might as well have just not said anything.
edit: you (the poster above me) use illogical arguments that do not deserve response.
For example, you say in SC1 tanks did more damage; therefore, in SC2 protoss takes less losses in a retreat for sieged tank based solely on 1 number. You don't take into consideration bonus damage, speed of units, HP of units, and other differences that might make your claim true, false, or undeterminable. It's a logical fallacy.
You are trying to compare an apple to an orange and consider it "proof". You do this a lot in the post, which is why it's not worth responding to.
double edit:
And why not look at the Tyler v Painuser match on Kulas? Painuser goes heavy mech at endgame T and wins. Wouldn't that be a good place to start?
They need 5 shots to kill one Zealot, you can bring it down to 4 with weapon upgrades, but that is actually a lot of shots for a 150minerals/125gas/3supply unit to kill a 100minerals/2supply unit. You can mass Chargelots a LOT easier than you can do the same with Tanks.
Once the Chargelots are on top of the tanks, the amount of Hellions won't even matter. All the other tanks will friendly fire on each other with bonused splash damage and trading a Zealot for a Tank is a win for Protoss. Hellions are also pointless beyond dealing with Chargelots as suiciding them into HTs mean you went lots of Hellions and lots of Tanks, not leaving a lot of Bio in your army, but still having to deal with Gateway units and Colossi (and the Chargelots).
Protoss' late tech just supplements itself so amazingly well. Mass Tank could deal with mass Colossi, so in a way....Siege Tank > Colossi as long as you can make the Colossi come to you. But, Chargelots rape Tanks, so Colossi + Chargelot demolishes a tank build. You might then say okay, let's go mass stim Bio with Ghosts for support, with Stim you could run up to the Colossi and the Zealots would be in your face anyway. Raw firepower essentially. But then you add Storm and that becomes useless as well, leaving T with pretty much nothing except *maybe* mass Air, but good luck transitioning into that and staying alive.
Modify either Warp-in Storms OR range 9 mobile Colossi OR Chargelots and there's something Terran could actually go for to deal with the other two on a equal level.
Here's the thing, Protoss has a high win rate on the ladder because its like a coin flip. If you go HT, you'll win against bio, collosus wins vs. tanks, etc.
BUT, if you choose wrong, you lose, and tech switching with toss is insanely hard.
Since most terrans on the ladder go MMM, protoss winrate is high because they just pick the right side of the coin.
Edit: This thread is a huge flame bait and should probably be closed. Balance Discussion != Strategy
I agree that this thread should be closed simply because of the book-long poster because he's just doing too much talking and not enough thinking. And PaleBlueDot FYI I'm diamond if that matters I think around the 2k range but i haven't checked my rating in a long time and just been playing the PTR which is full of good players. If it means anything I've been matched against player's like Kawaiirice for example so ye.
You're arguments against Mech TvP are bad you assume tanks still overkill and all that garbage and you completely disregard the bunkers holding off the Zlots. I mean yeah 1 tank shooting at 1 zlot it takes 5 hits perhaps... but 16 tanks with 10 hellions and 3-4 filled bunkers with marines 20 zlots will charge and evaporate yeah they'll maybe take out a bunker damage your hellions maybe even take a tank or 2 but the result is cost effective if you had good placement. And they die so fast that your tanks will continue to smash everything else and of course this is all situational. you will not win 100% of TvP's with mech or even 100% of confrontations. Nobody can be like oh you just do this an you win.
You're also arguing against the slow push mentality of Mech like SC:BW never existed... you build more turrets than you can shake a stick at around everything and along your push...Have you ever watched proleague? And better yet in SC2 for Mech play is that vikings fly unlike Goliaths and there is no arbiter just a very slow Mothership for recalls.
I've faced everything from Mass collossi to DTs to motherships to Voidray-Carriers to mass immotrals and tons of phase prism warp-ins and i can tell you. At PRO LEVEL Mech is probably not great however NaDa and SlayerSBoxeR have used heavy tank builds. but bronze-2k diamond Mech is definitely a strong style assuming you are the better macro player. It's just a style that help if you tend to do late game. If you're really good at timings and early game pressure i full out 100% recommend you do MMM and get in your opponents face until he crumbles but i tend to play for the 4-6 base length games lol.
On December 18 2010 06:37 Raiznhell wrote: I agree that this thread should be closed simply because of the book-long poster because he's just doing too much talking and not enough thinking. And PaleBlueDot FYI I'm diamond if that matters I think around the 2k range but i haven't checked my rating in a long time and just been playing the PTR which is full of good players. If it means anything I've been matched against player's like Kawaiirice for example so ye.
You're arguments against Mech TvP are bad you assume tanks still overkill and all that garbage and you completely disregard the bunkers holding off the Zlots. I mean yeah 1 tank shooting at 1 zlot it takes 5 hits perhaps... but 16 tanks with 10 hellions and 3-4 filled bunkers with marines 20 zlots will charge and evaporate yeah they'll maybe take out a bunker damage your hellions maybe even take a tank or 2 but the result is cost effective if you had good placement. And they die so fast that your tanks will continue to smash everything else and of course this is all situational. you will not win 100% of TvP's with mech or even 100% of confrontations. Nobody can be like oh you just do this an you win.
You're also arguing against the slow push mentality of Mech like SC:BW never existed... you build more turrets than you can shake a stick at around everything and along your push...Have you ever watched proleague? And better yet in SC2 for Mech play is that vikings fly unlike Goliaths and there is no arbiter just a very slow Mothership for recalls.
I've faced everything from Mass collossi to DTs to motherships to Voidray-Carriers to mass immotrals and tons of phase prism warp-ins and i can tell you. At PRO LEVEL Mech is probably not great however NaDa and SlayerSBoxeR have used heavy tank builds. but bronze-2k diamond Mech is definitely a strong style assuming you are the better macro player. It's just a style that help if you tend to do late game. If you're really good at timings and early game pressure i full out 100% recommend you do MMM and get in your opponents face until he crumbles but i tend to play for the 4-6 base length games lol.
Please post replays. I'm mostly curious how you defend a FE (which imo is necessary for mech vs P).
On December 18 2010 06:37 Raiznhell wrote: I agree that this thread should be closed simply because of the book-long poster because he's just doing too much talking and not enough thinking. And PaleBlueDot FYI I'm diamond if that matters I think around the 2k range but i haven't checked my rating in a long time and just been playing the PTR which is full of good players. If it means anything I've been matched against player's like Kawaiirice for example so ye.
You're arguments against Mech TvP are bad you assume tanks still overkill and all that garbage and you completely disregard the bunkers holding off the Zlots. I mean yeah 1 tank shooting at 1 zlot it takes 5 hits perhaps... but 16 tanks with 10 hellions and 3-4 filled bunkers with marines 20 zlots will charge and evaporate yeah they'll maybe take out a bunker damage your hellions maybe even take a tank or 2 but the result is cost effective if you had good placement. And they die so fast that your tanks will continue to smash everything else and of course this is all situational. you will not win 100% of TvP's with mech or even 100% of confrontations. Nobody can be like oh you just do this an you win.
You're also arguing against the slow push mentality of Mech like SC:BW never existed... you build more turrets than you can shake a stick at around everything and along your push...Have you ever watched proleague? And better yet in SC2 for Mech play is that vikings fly unlike Goliaths and there is no arbiter just a very slow Mothership for recalls.
I've faced everything from Mass collossi to DTs to motherships to Voidray-Carriers to mass immotrals and tons of phase prism warp-ins and i can tell you. At PRO LEVEL Mech is probably not great however NaDa and SlayerSBoxeR have used heavy tank builds. but bronze-2k diamond Mech is definitely a strong style assuming you are the better macro player. It's just a style that help if you tend to do late game. If you're really good at timings and early game pressure i full out 100% recommend you do MMM and get in your opponents face until he crumbles but i tend to play for the 4-6 base length games lol.
Please post replays. I'm mostly curious how you defend a FE (which imo is necessary for mech vs P).
I'll play some more games and save them and post replays at some point Because i don't regularly save replays but the PTR is absolutely full of protoss. As for a FE I'll have to wait and see because while I've faced a lot of things 14 nexus and such like that hasn't come up yet cuz people know it's suicide to 3rax. Because i scout after building my first depot I might probably do a 1/1/1 pressure push or something or use the marine from my barracks to do a bunker rush. for something like a 1 gate FE i might just keep on the same track and try to take a faster third than him but 1/1/1 i think with the raven kills 1 gate FE similar to Flash's FD Terran build in SC1
Here's the truth all you Protoss players. Mech sucks. Tanks suck in TvP. If your losing to tanks thats your own fualt. Post some replays of you losing to tanks and i bet i could point out a million things you did wrong.
This is sounding like when Terrans were telling Zerg that their race isnt UP in the early game and that TvZ Reapers weren't OP.
" Hurp durp make more Splings and Micro." - Ignorant Terran
Except now its. "Hurp Durp Make Tanks go Mech" - Ignorant Protoss
Truth: TvP mech Sucks. Tanks Suck in TvP. END OF STORY.
If you still say mech is good in TvP post a replay of effective MEch use. And i'll point out one or more of the following+ Show Spoiler +
On December 18 2010 06:37 Raiznhell wrote: I agree that this thread should be closed simply because of the book-long poster because he's just doing too much talking and not enough thinking. And PaleBlueDot FYI I'm diamond if that matters I think around the 2k range but i haven't checked my rating in a long time and just been playing the PTR which is full of good players. If it means anything I've been matched against player's like Kawaiirice for example so ye.
You're arguments against Mech TvP are bad you assume tanks still overkill and all that garbage and you completely disregard the bunkers holding off the Zlots. I mean yeah 1 tank shooting at 1 zlot it takes 5 hits perhaps... but 16 tanks with 10 hellions and 3-4 filled bunkers with marines 20 zlots will charge and evaporate yeah they'll maybe take out a bunker damage your hellions maybe even take a tank or 2 but the result is cost effective if you had good placement. And they die so fast that your tanks will continue to smash everything else and of course this is all situational. you will not win 100% of TvP's with mech or even 100% of confrontations. Nobody can be like oh you just do this an you win.
You're also arguing against the slow push mentality of Mech like SC:BW never existed... you build more turrets than you can shake a stick at around everything and along your push...Have you ever watched proleague? And better yet in SC2 for Mech play is that vikings fly unlike Goliaths and there is no arbiter just a very slow Mothership for recalls.
I've faced everything from Mass collossi to DTs to motherships to Voidray-Carriers to mass immotrals and tons of phase prism warp-ins and i can tell you. At PRO LEVEL Mech is probably not great however NaDa and SlayerSBoxeR have used heavy tank builds. but bronze-2k diamond Mech is definitely a strong style assuming you are the better macro player. It's just a style that help if you tend to do late game. If you're really good at timings and early game pressure i full out 100% recommend you do MMM and get in your opponents face until he crumbles but i tend to play for the 4-6 base length games lol.
I call bullshit.
The only reason your mech is successful, is because your opponents macro is bad and you managed to not die into a situation where protoss can't multitask pass 3+ base vs 3+ base. That's it. And guess what? You're strategy still sucks but your mechanics still prevail. That's all the case proves if there are even replays to back up your ridiculous garbage.
BAM itsMAHVELbaybee is why I absolutely HATE posting in Strategy section. FINE don't like Mech don't use it. Works for me so I'm happy and it's a lot cooler and funner style than MMM IMO. If Mech sucks so bad I'll learn it eventually the higher I go but W/E like i said it's probably not good for PRO level where everything is perfect and there are no wrongs and they are gods walking among mere mortals. But if your 2k diamond or lower where nothing's perfect at all (believe it or not diamond players are terrible just like me and my 70 apm ^ ^) then I'm simply saying Mech can work because it does for me.
To everyone no matter what strategy you see in this section of TL it will never EVER win you 100% or even 60% of your games. I can tell you whoever says tanks are bad in TvP is wrong but you'll just argue it anyways but HEY Naama won Dreamhack sooo.... the logic behind calling a unit that has the longest range in the game PLUS does splash damage bad is beyond retarded.
Don't like Mech fine mass marauders stim and go all you want and call that a "strategy" lol
On December 18 2010 07:23 Raiznhell wrote: BAM itsMAHVELbaybee is why I absolutely HATE posting in Strategy section. FINE don't like Mech don't use it. Works for me so I'm happy and it's a lot cooler and funner style than MMM IMO. If Mech sucks so bad I'll learn it eventually the higher I go but W/E like i said it's probably not good for PRO level where everything is perfect and there are no wrongs and they are gods walking among mere mortals. But if your 2k diamond or lower where nothing's perfect at all (believe it or not diamond players are terrible just like me and my 70 apm ^ ^) then I'm simply saying Mech can work because it does for me.
To everyone no matter what strategy you see in this section of TL it will never EVER win you 100% or even 60% of your games. I can tell you whoever says tanks are bad in TvP is wrong but you'll just argue it anyways but HEY Naama won Dreamhack sooo.... the logic behind calling a unit that has the longest range in the game PLUS does splash damage bad is beyond retarded.
Don't like Mech fine mass marauders stim and go all you want and call that a "strategy" lol
It would have been easier to say, oh mech can work, here's my evidence. Rather than, oh mech can work, here's some text.
On December 18 2010 07:23 Raiznhell wrote: BAM itsMAHVELbaybee is why I absolutely HATE posting in Strategy section. FINE don't like Mech don't use it. Works for me so I'm happy and it's a lot cooler and funner style than MMM IMO. If Mech sucks so bad I'll learn it eventually the higher I go but W/E like i said it's probably not good for PRO level where everything is perfect and there are no wrongs and they are gods walking among mere mortals. But if your 2k diamond or lower where nothing's perfect at all (believe it or not diamond players are terrible just like me and my 70 apm ^ ^) then I'm simply saying Mech can work because it does for me.
To everyone no matter what strategy you see in this section of TL it will never EVER win you 100% or even 60% of your games. I can tell you whoever says tanks are bad in TvP is wrong but you'll just argue it anyways but HEY Naama won Dreamhack sooo.... the logic behind calling a unit that has the longest range in the game PLUS does splash damage bad is beyond retarded.
Don't like Mech fine mass marauders stim and go all you want and call that a "strategy" lol
It would have been easier to say, oh mech can work, here's my evidence. Rather than, oh mech can work, here's some text.
Can't post replays as Most of my Mech TvPs are on the PTR ad the PTR just patched so any replays i could have uploaded are no longer able to be viewed.
Give it up. Every pro gamer that has tried to Mech in T v P has failed miserably. Unless you have discovered some crazy new timing/tactic, you aren't going to change that.
I've been watching Hashe experiment with bio-mech on his stream. He has been incorporating tanks in his TvP for awhile. He wins occasionally when doing so, but not often (He recently noted his troubles with TvP in an interview despite his dominance of TvT and TvZ). I respect his desire to experiment and last night when I saw him push with bio, tanks, ghost, and a Raven, I thought, "Ah, this is it-this is really going to work." He was rolled by gateway units and immortals even after landing a nice EMP or two.
Avilo wrote the guide on ghost-mech and he hasn't been able to pull it off post-tank-nerf.
I was terrible at BW but loved slow-pushing. In SCII, I am hesitant to slow push a toss because, as another poster noted, the backstab is too likely. Using Xel-Naga Caverns as an example, why would a toss engage my slow push when they can merely take another route and attack my third or my natural?
I'm not claiming imbalance, but I'm tired of toss saying that the problem is a lack of Terran creativity. As other posters have written before, we use or have used mech in our other matchups. We're not averse to mech. Yes, tanks and ravens can be incorporated into timing pushes. I think they have their role in TvP. But it seems to be a support role more than anything else (supporting MMM). Please stop telling us we lack creativity.
And when I do use banshees (often without cloak), please stop rage-quitting and crying imba. I'm being creative.
On December 18 2010 07:28 FabledIntegral wrote: Get rid of the ability for toss to warp in templar units. Only zealot/sentry/stalker. Problem solved!
EDIT: Compensate by lowering time for dark shrine to finish, and decrease cost of storm to 100/100, same with amulet.
get the nerfing mentality out of your head now as the sooner you do that the sooner you'll probably improve. Betas over man let it die.
The game is going to be altered quite a bit over the next few years, get it in your head. There would be compensating buffs, but to suggest there aren't going to be changes is pure idiocy on your part.
i think that terran can beat protoss late game with mech its just they need super high apm and perfect emps. early game getting out ghosts and enough tanks is just way too much gas
On December 16 2010 07:08 noD wrote: I thought most people were wrong this time, but I just watched a bw game today (flash x afrotoss) and man, it does felt like every single unit WAS balanced, carriers were strong, but goliaths and turrets could defend, it felt that the better player (i wont spoiler) would win and that happened. On current sc2's tvp it feels that unless T has advantage it will show a countdown that when reached T auto loses ...
Haha, "in a match between Paralyze and Flash, the better player won (no spoiler)"...right.
Anyway, I feel the same, although I think your example applies more to TvZ than TvP. In BW the units were much more balanced overall, whereas in SC2, even if the races are balanced, the game is not. Every race has a lot of imba strengths and glaring weaknesses, and maps matter so much. It's hard to get a healthy metagame out of something like this.
For anyone saying pros tried and failed to make Mech work well if you're watching the pros then just do what the pros do i was simply saying what i do and what works for me. MMM dont work for me i go Mech i said i recommend MMM for people with good timings and aggression play but im a defensive macro player and i like Mech and my best matchup right now is TvP so :/. don't like it don't take it. like the pros so much? do what they do. BTW a lot of the influence to how i Mech comes from watching how Jinro used to play before going to korea for example a series of his against Hasu so.
All i said was Mech works for me and laid out a bit of detail of how i go about doing it and people are here calling me idiot an such so fine just go ahead and mass your marauders if that's the end all be all to this new game. I'm not TRYING to make Mech work it's WORKING for ME.
Again I'm saying. If the PROs don't Mech then just go do what they do and win all your games. Simple...Done.
On December 18 2010 05:52 towers wrote: I wouldn't even respond to that post.
edit: you (the poster above me) use illogical arguments that do not deserve response.
For example, you say in SC1 tanks did more damage; therefore, in SC2 protoss takes less losses in a retreat for sieged tank based solely on 1 number. You don't take into consideration bonus damage, speed of units, HP of units, and other differences that might make your claim true, false, or undeterminable. It's a logical fallacy.
You are trying to compare an apple to an orange and consider it "proof". You do this a lot in the post, which is why it's not worth responding to.
double edit:
And why not look at the Tyler v Painuser match on Kulas? Painuser goes heavy mech at endgame T and wins. Wouldn't that be a good place to start?
Wasnt heavy mech at all, idk what you're talking about. He was just supplementing his mmm with a few thors and tanks and some banshees.
On December 18 2010 08:21 travis wrote: why do you need mech anyways just make marauders and vikings
you miss the whole point. In those games the P's unit combinations where variations of: chargelot, sentry, immortal, stalkers and HTs with amulet and storm.
Ok I watched all the games. EmpireKas made critical mistakes in the early game parts of all the games where he lost to many units. He also blindly made Vikings in some of the games despite not facing colossus in any of those which set him back alot.
On LT he finaly started to make ghosts against HT and even pulled some nice emps and snipes off but only after he crippled himself with again the false techchoice early game and with losing some marauders and marines that hang out alone at the watchtower. So Mana was 1 base ahead and harassed empires third with stalkers which gave him a lead. When empirekas started to do the right thing (making ghosts, emp, snipe) then he allready was behind.
-> to summarize the mana vs empirekas games: obvious wrong unit combinations, generally bad army control
Ok and then the mana vs servyoa game. I really liked this one because it was a back and forth game. servyoa made ghosts after he saw the HT tech and pulled off some nice emps. but then he sank his gas into medivacs(???) too much and mana pulled slowly ahead.
My conclusion:
I think there is a general missconception about medivacs. Yes they heal stimpack and storm damage away. but at what cost? they are not powerfull enough to keep marines alive and they dont heal costeffective against storm. If you dodge really well (which you often cannot because your army is too huge or the storm is right on spot of you etc.) then they are kinda costeffective against HT with storm. Go start a unit tester and see yourself!
Since Iam an exclusive protoss player I actually am biased I have to admit. But heres a challenge for you: next time you see a Protoss player choses storm tech, you sink your gas into ghosts instead of medivacs (you still make marauders ofc). Then you cover the P army with emps and try to snipe the remaining HTs (1 shot so they cant morph). Also research the energy upgrade and cloak so you can initiate perfect battles.
Late game protoss has advantage. Storm with amulet is the real game changer. You need ghosts and use them well. The fact that most terrans rarely ever use ghosts at all just makes templar even more absurd to deal with.
Edit: Late game terran typically still stick with MMM. Templar is the perfect counter to that. Feedback medivacs and storm the army. Add a few ghosts and thinks become really different imo. Without storm, MMM ball will destroy protoss ground armies easily.
On December 18 2010 06:37 Raiznhell wrote: I agree that this thread should be closed simply because of the book-long poster because he's just doing too much talking and not enough thinking. And PaleBlueDot FYI I'm diamond if that matters I think around the 2k range but i haven't checked my rating in a long time and just been playing the PTR which is full of good players. If it means anything I've been matched against player's like Kawaiirice for example so ye.
You're arguments against Mech TvP are bad you assume tanks still overkill and all that garbage and you completely disregard the bunkers holding off the Zlots. I mean yeah 1 tank shooting at 1 zlot it takes 5 hits perhaps... but 16 tanks with 10 hellions and 3-4 filled bunkers with marines 20 zlots will charge and evaporate yeah they'll maybe take out a bunker damage your hellions maybe even take a tank or 2 but the result is cost effective if you had good placement. And they die so fast that your tanks will continue to smash everything else and of course this is all situational. you will not win 100% of TvP's with mech or even 100% of confrontations. Nobody can be like oh you just do this an you win.
You're also arguing against the slow push mentality of Mech like SC:BW never existed... you build more turrets than you can shake a stick at around everything and along your push...Have you ever watched proleague? And better yet in SC2 for Mech play is that vikings fly unlike Goliaths and there is no arbiter just a very slow Mothership for recalls.
I've faced everything from Mass collossi to DTs to motherships to Voidray-Carriers to mass immotrals and tons of phase prism warp-ins and i can tell you. At PRO LEVEL Mech is probably not great however NaDa and SlayerSBoxeR have used heavy tank builds. but bronze-2k diamond Mech is definitely a strong style assuming you are the better macro player. It's just a style that help if you tend to do late game. If you're really good at timings and early game pressure i full out 100% recommend you do MMM and get in your opponents face until he crumbles but i tend to play for the 4-6 base length games lol.
Please post replays. I'm mostly curious how you defend a FE (which imo is necessary for mech vs P).
I'll play some more games and save them and post replays at some point Because i don't regularly save replays but the PTR is absolutely full of protoss. As for a FE I'll have to wait and see because while I've faced a lot of things 14 nexus and such like that hasn't come up yet cuz people know it's suicide to 3rax. Because i scout after building my first depot I might probably do a 1/1/1 pressure push or something or use the marine from my barracks to do a bunker rush. for something like a 1 gate FE i might just keep on the same track and try to take a faster third than him but 1/1/1 i think with the raven kills 1 gate FE similar to Flash's FD Terran build in SC1
I meant Terran FE-ing, but I guess you open with 1/1/1 instead? How do you reach critical mass of tanks fast enough to: a) prevent the protoss from taking a 2nd and 3rd, or just harass to stay even on economy b) defend your own expo against a mass charge-lot response (typically 2 base timing attack from protoss after some kind of expand)
When I was experimenting with mech I would open siege expand, but I would die to a chargelot rush around the time I had 5 tanks and was just saturating my expo. I also had no way to punish expands by the protoss, and was vulnerable to drops (but i had built in safety against air). That's why I avoid mech now despite slow tank pushes being pretty good once you're at around 12-16 tanks.
On December 18 2010 06:37 Raiznhell wrote: I agree that this thread should be closed simply because of the book-long poster because he's just doing too much talking and not enough thinking. And PaleBlueDot FYI I'm diamond if that matters I think around the 2k range but i haven't checked my rating in a long time and just been playing the PTR which is full of good players. If it means anything I've been matched against player's like Kawaiirice for example so ye.
You're arguments against Mech TvP are bad you assume tanks still overkill and all that garbage and you completely disregard the bunkers holding off the Zlots. I mean yeah 1 tank shooting at 1 zlot it takes 5 hits perhaps... but 16 tanks with 10 hellions and 3-4 filled bunkers with marines 20 zlots will charge and evaporate yeah they'll maybe take out a bunker damage your hellions maybe even take a tank or 2 but the result is cost effective if you had good placement. And they die so fast that your tanks will continue to smash everything else and of course this is all situational. you will not win 100% of TvP's with mech or even 100% of confrontations. Nobody can be like oh you just do this an you win.
You're also arguing against the slow push mentality of Mech like SC:BW never existed... you build more turrets than you can shake a stick at around everything and along your push...Have you ever watched proleague? And better yet in SC2 for Mech play is that vikings fly unlike Goliaths and there is no arbiter just a very slow Mothership for recalls.
I've faced everything from Mass collossi to DTs to motherships to Voidray-Carriers to mass immotrals and tons of phase prism warp-ins and i can tell you. At PRO LEVEL Mech is probably not great however NaDa and SlayerSBoxeR have used heavy tank builds. but bronze-2k diamond Mech is definitely a strong style assuming you are the better macro player. It's just a style that help if you tend to do late game. If you're really good at timings and early game pressure i full out 100% recommend you do MMM and get in your opponents face until he crumbles but i tend to play for the 4-6 base length games lol.
Please post replays. I'm mostly curious how you defend a FE (which imo is necessary for mech vs P).
I'll play some more games and save them and post replays at some point Because i don't regularly save replays but the PTR is absolutely full of protoss. As for a FE I'll have to wait and see because while I've faced a lot of things 14 nexus and such like that hasn't come up yet cuz people know it's suicide to 3rax. Because i scout after building my first depot I might probably do a 1/1/1 pressure push or something or use the marine from my barracks to do a bunker rush. for something like a 1 gate FE i might just keep on the same track and try to take a faster third than him but 1/1/1 i think with the raven kills 1 gate FE similar to Flash's FD Terran build in SC1
I meant Terran FE-ing, but I guess you open with 1/1/1 instead? How do you reach critical mass of tanks fast enough to: a) prevent the protoss from taking a 2nd and 3rd b) defend your own expo against a mass charge-lot response (typically 2 base timing attack from protoss after some kind of expand)
When I was experimenting with mech I would open siege expand, but I would die to a chargelot rush around the time I had 5 tanks and was just saturating my expo. I also had no way to punish expands by the protoss, and was vulnerable to drops (but i had built in safety against air). That's why I avoid mech now despite slow tank pushes being pretty good once you're at around 12-16 tanks.
OH you ment how i FE?
k so i go the regular 16 orbital cept as soon as i get my 50 gas i pull SCV to mine minerals and get a reactor on my barracks and then get a CC soon as i drop the CC down IN-BASE i immediately put SCVs back on gas and get a second refinery and get my first factory from which i get a siege tank and siege tech immediately upon tech lab completetion.
While constantly making marines and SCVs i get my engineering bay up Right after my factory ESPECIALLY on scrap station and steppes of war for DT tech and fast air or drops/warp-ins.
As i plant my CC down at my natural I make a bunker or 2 and usually get my first tank out and sieged plus a turret to defend my natural. from there after I've saturated my natural i drop 3 more factories and a starport and then have 3 factories with tech labs and 1 with reactor and my starport i get a reactor and i start pre-ig for hellions and from then on I just crank out a butt load of units slowly creeping to get a third with bunkers and turrets and getting an armory up whenever possible to get the much needed +2 vehicle weapons needed before you can actually do any tiye of moving out with your army. I also send hellions out for harassment and scouting every now and then and also getting a splash of vikings for void rays and collossi.
there's also been occasions where I've done something as rash as 15CC before Rax If I'm feeling super confident but 4 gate or 3 gate robo and your probably gunna die if he has the brains to just walk past ur bunkers into your main or something.
I find it's the FE so fast that really makes Mech work because i can get more tanks out faster to get that third up and once that third is up I feel in great shape from that point on.
On December 18 2010 06:37 Raiznhell wrote: I agree that this thread should be closed simply because of the book-long poster because he's just doing too much talking and not enough thinking. And PaleBlueDot FYI I'm diamond if that matters I think around the 2k range but i haven't checked my rating in a long time and just been playing the PTR which is full of good players. If it means anything I've been matched against player's like Kawaiirice for example so ye.
You're arguments against Mech TvP are bad you assume tanks still overkill and all that garbage and you completely disregard the bunkers holding off the Zlots. I mean yeah 1 tank shooting at 1 zlot it takes 5 hits perhaps... but 16 tanks with 10 hellions and 3-4 filled bunkers with marines 20 zlots will charge and evaporate yeah they'll maybe take out a bunker damage your hellions maybe even take a tank or 2 but the result is cost effective if you had good placement. And they die so fast that your tanks will continue to smash everything else and of course this is all situational. you will not win 100% of TvP's with mech or even 100% of confrontations. Nobody can be like oh you just do this an you win.
You're also arguing against the slow push mentality of Mech like SC:BW never existed... you build more turrets than you can shake a stick at around everything and along your push...Have you ever watched proleague? And better yet in SC2 for Mech play is that vikings fly unlike Goliaths and there is no arbiter just a very slow Mothership for recalls.
I've faced everything from Mass collossi to DTs to motherships to Voidray-Carriers to mass immotrals and tons of phase prism warp-ins and i can tell you. At PRO LEVEL Mech is probably not great however NaDa and SlayerSBoxeR have used heavy tank builds. but bronze-2k diamond Mech is definitely a strong style assuming you are the better macro player. It's just a style that help if you tend to do late game. If you're really good at timings and early game pressure i full out 100% recommend you do MMM and get in your opponents face until he crumbles but i tend to play for the 4-6 base length games lol.
Please post replays. I'm mostly curious how you defend a FE (which imo is necessary for mech vs P).
I'll play some more games and save them and post replays at some point Because i don't regularly save replays but the PTR is absolutely full of protoss. As for a FE I'll have to wait and see because while I've faced a lot of things 14 nexus and such like that hasn't come up yet cuz people know it's suicide to 3rax. Because i scout after building my first depot I might probably do a 1/1/1 pressure push or something or use the marine from my barracks to do a bunker rush. for something like a 1 gate FE i might just keep on the same track and try to take a faster third than him but 1/1/1 i think with the raven kills 1 gate FE similar to Flash's FD Terran build in SC1
I meant Terran FE-ing, but I guess you open with 1/1/1 instead? How do you reach critical mass of tanks fast enough to: a) prevent the protoss from taking a 2nd and 3rd b) defend your own expo against a mass charge-lot response (typically 2 base timing attack from protoss after some kind of expand)
When I was experimenting with mech I would open siege expand, but I would die to a chargelot rush around the time I had 5 tanks and was just saturating my expo. I also had no way to punish expands by the protoss, and was vulnerable to drops (but i had built in safety against air). That's why I avoid mech now despite slow tank pushes being pretty good once you're at around 12-16 tanks.
OH you ment how i FE?
k so i go the regular 16 orbital cept as soon as i get my 50 gas i pull SCV to mine minerals and get a reactor on my barracks and then get a CC soon as i drop the CC down IN-BASE i immediately put SCVs back on gas and get a second refinery and get my first factory from which i get a siege tank and siege tech immediately upon tech lab completetion.
While constantly making marines and SCVs i get my engineering bay up Right after my factory ESPECIALLY on scrap station and steppes of war for DT tech and fast air or drops/warp-ins.
As i plant my CC down at my natural I make a bunker or 2 and usually get my first tank out and sieged plus a turret to defend my natural. from there after I've saturated my natural i drop 3 more factories and a starport and then have 3 factories with tech labs and 1 with reactor and my starport i get a reactor and i start pre-ig for hellions and from then on I just crank out a butt load of units slowly creeping to get a third with bunkers and turrets and getting an armory up whenever possible to get the much needed +2 vehicle weapons needed before you can actually do any tiye of moving out with your army. I also send hellions out for harassment and scouting every now and then and also getting a splash of vikings for void rays and collossi.
there's also been occasions where I've done something as rash as 15CC before Rax If I'm feeling super confident but 4 gate or 3 gate robo and your probably gunna die if he has the brains to just walk past ur bunkers into your main or something.
I find it's the FE so fast that really makes Mech work because i can get more tanks out faster to get that third up and once that third is up I feel in great shape from that point on.
If you want to 15CC don't place it at your natural, just use it as part of your wall-in. If you scout 4gate or 3gate robo then stay at your wall and just use it for extra SCV prod + mules. If not, then float it down. If you see 4gate then just get 3 rax afterwards, first with tech lab (for quick stim), second both with reactors, then tech asap to medivacs in case he decided to sentry contain. You'll be ahead.
i think people are thinking too hard about huge mid field battles and not thinking enough about more situational/tactics.
yeah blue flame hellions kind of suck in a big battle because of tank splash, but they aren't TERRIBLE for their cost and they give the option to go on a lot of min line raids.
yeah tanks aren't that great because you have to siege in time, and they can splash friendly units, BUT a good player will target priority units (like templar, stalkers). a good player can siege tanks out of vision of toss and lure the toss in and with a critical mass of tanks crush a sizable portion of toss army without their noticing.
Also I think marine tank expand is one of the few openings that are safe against EVERY toss opening (dt's, blink stalker, 4 gate, 3 gate robo, 2 gate void, 1 gate colli rush). Doesn't mean you have to stay tanks all game, but it's tactics like these that CHANGE throughout the game that can often determine the winner as opposed to 200/200 death ball vs. death ball.
That said, doesn't mean I know if things are imbalanced or not, but there's a lot of qq and resignation from people who can improve in ways clearly unrelated to these "imbalance" points (better macro, scouting, tactics, etc)
putting tanks on the nat cliff on delta quad, super useful. bring along an scv to build a few turrets and lol as they send in a warp prism that gets shot down
On December 18 2010 12:38 gg all-in wrote: Lol @ the idea of mech not being useful in TvP
putting tanks on the nat cliff on delta quad, super useful. bring along an scv to build a few turrets and lol as they send in a warp prism that gets shot down
... that's not a mech based build/strategy, that's utilizing a few tanks, please follow the thread ffs.
I like how everyone who is arguing for the mech build can not post replays for one reason or another. Ever.
@towers
For example, you say in SC1 tanks did more damage; therefore, in SC2 protoss takes less losses in a retreat for sieged tank based solely on 1 number. You don't take into consideration bonus damage, speed of units, HP of units, and other differences that might make your claim true, false, or undeterminable. It's a logical fallacy.
You are trying to compare an apple to an orange and consider it "proof". You do this a lot in the post, which is why it's not worth responding to.
double edit:
And why not look at the Tyler v Painuser match on Kulas? Painuser goes heavy mech at endgame T and wins. Wouldn't that be a good place to start?
This is one of the dumbest things I have ever read. I don't take into consideration bonus damage? What the hell is that? Bonus damage from tanks is 50 (vs. armored), which is still less, so I do not know what you're getting it. If you meant hellions, sure they get bonus vs. light with blue flame, but the real reason you get them is for the mobility and splash, so when a hellion is hitting just 1 zealot as opposed to 5, it is a problem. And yes I did take into consideration the HP of units, hence me explaining break points for tank attacks on a couple units (stalker/colossus/ a little of immortal), maybe you should read before posting.
Also, I honestly cannot believe that you think you can justify mech as a whole by giving me ONE replay on kulas ravine of all places. Kulas ravine is like a mech players wet dream, and it still only worked SOME of the time. If anything the fact that mech didn't straight up break kulas (it was favored vs. T even without mech, but mech should have made it stupid favored) should be a point to why mech isn't very viable anyway. Don't start complaining about problems with logic when you have delusions of 1 replay making everything okay.
@Raiznhell
I don't know if you people have a problem reading or if this is some kind of new age trolling but I would really enjoy not being accused of saying things I didn't say. [b] I'm diamond if that matters I think around the 2k range but i haven't checked my rating in a long time and just been playing the PTR which is full of good players. If it means anything I've been matched against player's like Kawaiirice for example so ye. [/b]
Congrats no being ~2k diamond. So am I. Congrats on playing with Kawaii. So have I. I have even played a couple KOTH's with the guy. While if this is true it probably gives your word more bang for the buck than most other people, you saying the thread needs to be closed because of the arguments I made is blatantly showing off your bias for just not trying to disprove the argument but just flaming instead.
You're arguments against Mech TvP are bad you assume tanks still overkill and all that garbage and you completely disregard the bunkers holding off the Zlots.
I have never ONCE gave even the slightest hint of thinking tanks overkill nor even said the word overkill, not to mention whatever "all that garbage" is. I don't disregard bunkers holding off zealots, in fact, I think if mech is to work bunkers would almost be necessary to help negate the effects of air just smashing into it and their ability to tank damage. When did I disregard this? I believe my main argument points where that tanks are still wasting shots on zealots (even when they engage bunkers) and getting backstabbed.
You're also arguing against the slow push mentality of Mech like SC:BW never existed... you build more turrets than you can shake a stick at around everything and along your push...Have you ever watched proleague? And better yet in SC2 for Mech play is that vikings fly unlike Goliaths and there is no arbiter just a very slow Mothership for recalls.
Honestly I probably haven't given the slow push mentality the credit it deserves, but that's only because i've seen it fail a lot more than I have seen it work. And when did I say that it did not exist in SCBW? In fact I believe I argued for positioning and buildings in front of your tanks which by definition is happening during a slow push. It is true that we have vikings now, but they trade the ability to fly and a long range for having a transition time and being more expensive. It is true that there is no more arbiter, and thank god for that, it was the bane of my existance on iccup, but where the arbiter has gone they have now have colossus and immortals, which seem tailor made to give mech a rough way to go. At PRO LEVEL Mech is probably not great however NaDa and SlayerSBoxeR have used heavy tank builds. but bronze-2k diamond Mech is definitely a strong style assuming you are the better macro player.
Honestly, if something does not work at the pro level why even use it? The entire point of this, I thought, was that mech isn't viable anymore, and if it doesn't work at the pro level, then that's proof isn't it? Under pro level, there are too many mismanagments as players for things to be evaluated correctly (theoretically of course), so why would anything under pro level matter for analysis? And there is a large difference between tank heavy builds and straight up mech.
But as for actual useful discussion:
Whats the theoretical ideal composition for mech? Like I am not sure we are adding lots of marines and still calling it mech, or just using some pure mix of Tank/Thor/Hellion/Viking. From my experience using thors vs. toss, they only seem good earlier in the game before the colossus ball gets out, so I assume that you may get 1 or so early but them abandon them for more tanks. Marines in bunkers are definitely very good, but do they confine you to a preset position more than is good for you, or perhaps even slow the push down to much? Also whats the opinions on vikings, should they be reactionary to any voidrays / prisms or should they be gotten anyway for harassing purposes (very poor harass imo) or as a "just in case". Also, would BCS be of any use for this? I have no used them for a LONG time, but it seems like just 1 or 2 hovering over your tank line would force more stalker/voidray and since I figure stalkers are not ideally what they want to produce, voidrays that aren't in crazy numbers get killed by vikings, and templar should be fielded less against mech than colossi they might have a place, though if they are worth their cost in gas remains to be seen. Thoughts?
I've tested the ideal mech army with thor tank marine full ups 200/200. This ends up still falling apart trivially to a proper P army, not even using carriers. It barely comes out ahead in a super advantageous set up position that no P would ever let you have.
The fact is that tanks are useless massed up against P. 2/3 of P's army deals with tanks trivially. Tanks have 2 roles: timing push against P that FEd, and 2-3 of them for siege an expansion without sacrificing your concave at a position.
The two units that will be the secret to the matchup are ghosts and bluehellions. Both are criminally underused right now. If P is fielding 10+ templar, T needs to be fielding more ghosts as well. Ts are getting way too many medivac - medivac is the least DPS unit out of the starport (13hps). That gas needs to go into ghosts.
As for hellions, they have 3 crucial roles - trade aggressively against zeals at the start of a fight, harass expos efficiently, push into zealtemplar warpin without exposing your remaining bio.
The real reason mech was strong in SC1 was spider mines. Spider mines forced a lot of observers (or micro) and even the best players would often lose units to spider mines. It would also make it impossible to crack a Terran's tank line without a good zealot bomb or a good mine drag (which, by the way, is pretty hard to pull off)
In SC2 tanks are 25% harder to get (cause of the gas increase, tanks are generally resource-limited by gas) and yet about that much weaker. In fact, they're about half as good against most units except for armored units. The only units really that tanks do 50 damage to in TvP are colossi, stalkers, and unshielded immortals. Zealots take so many hits to die, and with charge, you don't need warp prisms to break drops. Immortals and colossi also make tank lines very weak; immortals do sick damage while taking almost none, and colossi challenge the range of tanks. Vultures used to be decent vs most units, in big numbers. Now, hellions are okay vs zealots, sentries, HTs, etc, but their RoF is horrible and you can't micro them like you could micro vultures. They're much worse vs stalkers than vultures were against dragoons.
Add on top of that stalker blink and you've basically murdered Terran mech.
To add insult to injury, Terran mech is completely useless against stargate builds, as void rays RAPE tank lines.
totally agreed. I feel like TvP terran has to open with a build that gives them a strong army because if they dont they just get 4 gate rushed. Like Rain tried to tech and it failed.
4 gate is impossible to stop now that protoss learned to how force field bunkers. So the only way to stop it is just by hving more units. And 1 rax tech or 2 rax expand does not cut it
On December 18 2010 07:58 link0 wrote: Give it up. Every pro gamer that has tried to Mech in T v P has failed miserably. Unless you have discovered some crazy new timing/tactic, you aren't going to change that.
Did you see PainUser vs WhiteRa in the Root gaming qfs game 1? Actually, just PainIUser in general. He started losing when he stopped using his mech build.
I respect your achievements, Link0, and I understand that you could whup my butt in a 1v1 or a 4v1 or anything in between, even if I had a head start and three show me the moneys, but I respectfully submit that you may want to think around these corners a bit more.
I'm not even going to respond to that giant 2 page long QQ "rebuttal" of my post. The long and the short of it is, Terran players who think the only way to go is MMM are giving themselves a huge disadvantage. If an opponent knows what you are going to build FROM THE START, he is going to hard-counter it. MMM is the core terran unit composition, but you HAVE to go outwards from there. You can tell me about all the ways to break Terran mech and air units and I can tell you about all the ways you can counter that break and we can go on and on and on like that.
And when I do use banshees (often without cloak), please stop rage-quitting and crying imba. I'm being creative.
Somebody recently demolished me with a marine/raven/cloaked banshee push. After I finished IdrA raging I was really impressed. That is creativity. Actually I like banshees in general -- I hate dealing with them but they're a great harassment unit that can add good DPS in a large engagement.
I also agree that Terran lategame requires exceptional unit control. They really have the most fragile core units, but one really clutch EMP can basically win you the game, and I respect that. Notice how a lot of the pro-gaming tourneys tend to see a lot more Terran representation? When you get up to that level of control, Terran can seriously dominate.
I do kind of agree that this post should be closed -- it's (long since turned into) into a balance rage thread.
On December 19 2010 02:05 Vega62a wrote: Did you see PainUser vs WhiteRa in the Root gaming qfs game 1? Actually, just PainIUser in general. He started losing when he stopped using his mech build.
For the love of god. Can we please stop referencing just one game to prove a point? One game is useless to prove consistency. Honestly I do not keep up with painuser, like ever, but if I could get like, 5 references for games (don't even have to be links, just enough info to search up the game on youtube or whatever), that would be great. (And yes, I looked up a couple painuser replays, but the first 2 I saw he did not use mech so I just stopped looking because I shouldn't have to back your stuff up for you)
Has anyone tried this build in TvP?? I used it long ago when i used to play 1v1 ..
You begin by going with the standard 111 build..
-get a banshee or so and go out and do the initial harass -bunker up ur wall -get siege mode upgrade as well or cloak upgrade
While harassing with banshees start getting ravens and banshees as gas comes and a few tanks to cover possible counter attacks and while pumping out marines and transition to 222. By the time u got the 222 (get a 2nd starport first and then factory) up and you should have expanded safely. -barracks constantly produces marines -starports constantly produces banshees and ravens -factory constantly produces thors...
Because of the initial banshee harass somehow it may force your opponent to bulk up heavy on stalkers which is what you want. So when u engage in battle get your multiple ravens to put down PDD's to absorb huge damage (should have about 5+ PDD by the time you attack.) banshee should be quite safe from stalkers here. If there are void rays then ur marines and thors can shoot it down.
Spread if necessary (ie: for storm/collosus) usually i would engage at 150+ food and when i come out of the battle, 100% of the time they are all dead and i only lost 20-30 food and then 1a to victory...
I find it stops DT drops very well, because of the early raven. Effectively stops blink stalker all in, if you use ur PDD to stop it from sniping tanks and force fielding is almost pointless as you got more ravens/banshees and thors, It can also put the opponent in the dark side if you stop the obs from viewing your base with ravens.
But yer that was a few months ago when i was trying wild stuff and haven't played 1v1 for a while . So if anyone wants to give it a shot and report me back if its effective in the higher levels it would be greatly appreciated. I had comments given back that they had no idea how to beat the build a few times... and perhaps if the game prolongs and you have too much resources you can upgrade to 3/3/3 or 4/4/4etc...
On December 19 2010 02:39 ilmman wrote: Has anyone tried this build in TvP?? I used it long ago when i used to play 1v1 ..
You begin by going with the standard 111 build..
-get a banshee or so and go out and do the initial harass -bunker up ur wall -get siege mode upgrade as well or cloak upgrade
While harassing with banshees start getting ravens and banshees as gas comes and a few tanks to cover possible counter attacks and while pumping out marines and transition to 222. By the time u got the 222 (get a 2nd starport first and then factory) up and you should have expanded safely. -barracks constantly produces marines -starports constantly produces banshees and ravens -factory constantly produces thors...
Because of the initial banshee harass somehow it may force your opponent to bulk up heavy on stalkers which is what you want. So when u engage in battle get your multiple ravens to put down PDD's to absorb huge damage (should have about 5+ PDD by the time you attack.) banshee should be quite safe from stalkers here. If there are void rays then ur marines and thors can shoot it down.
Spread if necessary (ie: for storm/collosus) usually i would engage at 150+ food and when i come out of the battle, 100% of the time they are all dead and i only lost 20-30 food and then 1a to victory...
I find it stops DT drops very well, because of the early raven. Effectively stops blink stalker all in, if you use ur PDD to stop it from sniping tanks and force fielding is almost pointless as you got more ravens/banshees and thors, It can also put the opponent in the dark side if you stop the obs from viewing your base with ravens.
But yer that was a few months ago when i was trying wild stuff and haven't played 1v1 for a while . So if anyone wants to give it a shot and report me back if its effective in the higher levels it would be greatly appreciated. I had comments given back that they had no idea how to beat the build a few times... and perhaps if the game prolongs and you have too much resources you can upgrade to 3/3/3 or 4/4/4etc...
would have huge trouble with a chargelot/ht-centric army. thors, tanks and raven all suck against chargelots, and marines arent great against them either if they have to run out of storms all the time.
in general i dont think that more than 2 ravens are ever worth it in tvp. better get more banshees/thors out with that gas.
i have beaten chargelot HT armies because of the number of banshees and ravens i got, mainly because they cant atk air and the HT's mobility, but yer the banshee harass should make them more stalker heavy if u constantly harass with banshees i guess...
I agree that chargelot / HT armies are incredibly hard to deal with as terrran. As others have said late game zealots are very efficient units, whereas marines are all but worthless. The other gripe I have is how easy it is for protoss to upgrade, terran it seems need to use all 3 tech paths to have a viable army, but protoss can upgrade their entire army using only 1 set of upgrades.
Currently terran rely on their harrass skills to beat protoss, banshees, drops, hellions, etc. It seems that in the new patch faster phoenix and cheaper observers will help protoss shut down the one thing terran have going for them in this match up.
On December 19 2010 02:05 Vega62a wrote: Did you see PainUser vs WhiteRa in the Root gaming qfs game 1? Actually, just PainIUser in general. He started losing when he stopped using his mech build.
For the love of god. Can we please stop referencing just one game to prove a point? One game is useless to prove consistency. Honestly I do not keep up with painuser, like ever, but if I could get like, 5 references for games (don't even have to be links, just enough info to search up the game on youtube or whatever), that would be great. (And yes, I looked up a couple painuser replays, but the first 2 I saw he did not use mech so I just stopped looking because I shouldn't have to back your stuff up for you)
MMM is currently the standard so of course whoever looks it up is going to find mainly MMM. Just a few people who trying mech are trying to break the cycle. So obviously its going to be far and few between. Mech has its place bio has its place. Also don't disregard styles even in the pro league the players seem pretty stubborn in getting the strategy they are comfortable with to work.
As a zerg player, I've only recently been trying to understand TvP. It SEEMS to me that the transitions out of bio + viking are either weak or unexplored. Psi-storm + warp-in is very strong, and straightforward to use. The terran "counter" to this would seem to be EMP, but in practice ghosts are a very heavy gas investment and are also very hard to use. Other Terran high-tech has its issues: banshees, battlecruisers and ravens are all weak to feedback, while tanks and thors are weak to voidrays and immortals.
On December 19 2010 09:31 naventus wrote: Go look at battlereport #1.
David Kim uses marauderhellion core, with air support.
I can definitely imagine that this is what blizzard might have intended/balanced around.
well that's kinda over 9000 patches ago and blizzard probably doesn't have any intentions on balancing around specific unit compositions for matchups....although they were pretty keen on making tanks weaker and weaker throughout the beta and release for no good reason and not editing marauders -_-.
Although Hellions are amazing TvP and massing them and tanks just makes me feel warm and happy. Best way of dealing with what seems like OP HT warp-in after the khaydarin amulet upgrade.
I mean ghosts are a direct counter with EMP to HTs but HTs can be warped in and can just feedback the ghosts and have storms to spare. i find suiciding hellions to pick off HTS whenever possible to be the best way to deal with them.
On December 19 2010 09:31 naventus wrote: Go look at battlereport #1.
David Kim uses marauderhellion core, with air support.
I can definitely imagine that this is what blizzard might have intended/balanced around.
well that's kinda over 9000 patches ago and blizzard probably doesn't have any intentions on balancing around specific unit compositions for matchups....although they were pretty keen on making tanks weaker and weaker throughout the beta and release for no good reason and not editing marauders -_-.
You can't tell me that tanks that did 60 damage a shot to everything was balanced.
Things for Blizz to consider for next PTR/patch...
1. HT nerf. Remove amulet upgrade or make storm cost 100 energy. Alternatively, nerf storm casting animation (i.e animation starts where storm would hit 2-3 seconds before dealing any damage) and increase time span over which damage is dealt. 2. Colossus nerf. Change their damage output mode to +light, so they wouldn't be so effective vs tanks, thors, buildings, roaches, stalkers, and yes... vs marauders... 3. Warpgate nerf. The further units wrap-in from the closest nexus, the longer wrap-in animation lasts. Add to that longer gate cooldown. The fastest rate should be in area around any nexus about size of average staring base...
Will all above changes combined bring balance... probably no... Is current state of TvP balanced... HELL NO.
I understand that toss players would like to differ, but asking that this tread closed because they don't like it is pushing it...
On December 19 2010 10:16 bluesoup wrote: Things for Blizz to consider for next PTR/patch...
1. HT nerf. Remove amulet upgrade or make storm cost 100 energy. Alternatively, nerf storm casting animation (i.e animation starts where storm would hit 2-3 seconds before dealing any damage) and increase time span over which damage is dealt. 2. Colossus nerf. Change their damage output mode to +light, so they wouldn't be so effective vs tanks, thors, buildings, roaches, stalkers, and yes... vs marauders... 3. Warpgate nerf. The further units wrap-in from the closest nexus, the longer wrap-in animation lasts. Add to that longer gate cooldown. The fastest rate should be in area around any nexus about size of average staring base...
Will all above changes combined bring balance... probably no... Is current state of TvP balanced... HELL NO.
I understand that toss players would like to differ, but asking that this tread closed because they don't like it is pushing it...
Lol yeah sure and why not removing the protoss race ? Something need to be done concerning the hts, like making storm cost 85-90 energy ? So that the P player won't be able to warp and immediately storm everything
On December 13 2010 23:24 4Servy wrote: once protoss has the amulet its gg, its ridic how imba that upgrade is my dog can win with protoss after they got the amulet.
I call BS on this. Im not a terran player and I think I can beat your dog even if he has amulet. Heck give him whole map and ill one base terran him or her.
On December 19 2010 10:16 bluesoup wrote: Things for Blizz to consider for next PTR/patch...
1. HT nerf. Remove amulet upgrade or make storm cost 100 energy. Alternatively, nerf storm casting animation (i.e animation starts where storm would hit 2-3 seconds before dealing any damage) and increase time span over which damage is dealt. 2. Colossus nerf. Change their damage output mode to +light, so they wouldn't be so effective vs tanks, thors, buildings, roaches, stalkers, and yes... vs marauders... 3. Warpgate nerf. The further units wrap-in from the closest nexus, the longer wrap-in animation lasts. Add to that longer gate cooldown. The fastest rate should be in area around any nexus about size of average staring base...
Will all above changes combined bring balance... probably no... Is current state of TvP balanced... HELL NO.
I understand that toss players would like to differ, but asking that this tread closed because they don't like it is pushing it...
Its kind of funny while I do agree toss has way stronger late game. But you also have to take early game into consideration. How easy a terran crush gateway using with stimmed marauder/marine is just wrong.
I think its fine to nerf protoss teir 3 aoe, but in order to balance it. Toss would need stronger gateway units.
Current state of TvP is basically. Protoss defend till templar tech+3 base or attack/finish before stim. Basically 2 timing for toss.
On December 19 2010 10:16 bluesoup wrote: Will all above changes combined bring balance... probably no... Is current state of TvP balanced... HELL NO.
I understand that toss players would like to differ, but asking that this tread closed because they don't like it is pushing it...
Its kind of funny while I do agree toss has way stronger late game. But you also have to take early game into consideration. How easy a terran crush gateway using with stimmed marauder/marine is just wrong.
I think its fine to nerf protoss teir 3 aoe, but in order to balance it. Toss would need stronger gateway units.
Current state of TvP is basically. Protoss defend till templar tech+3 base or attack/finish before stim. Basically 2 timing for toss.
Well i didn't say anything about terran nerfs/buffs so it is a discussion, a start. It might not get us anywhere, but as long as journey is fun...
Please consider that above changes also affect other matchups. My idea also toches PvP (collosuss and warpgate rushes)...
On December 19 2010 10:16 bluesoup wrote: Things for Blizz to consider for next PTR/patch...
1. HT nerf. Remove amulet upgrade or make storm cost 100 energy. Alternatively, nerf storm casting animation (i.e animation starts where storm would hit 2-3 seconds before dealing any damage) and increase time span over which damage is dealt. 2. Colossus nerf. Change their damage output mode to +light, so they wouldn't be so effective vs tanks, thors, buildings, roaches, stalkers, and yes... vs marauders... 3. Warpgate nerf. The further units wrap-in from the closest nexus, the longer wrap-in animation lasts. Add to that longer gate cooldown. The fastest rate should be in area around any nexus about size of average staring base...
Will all above changes combined bring balance... probably no... Is current state of TvP balanced... HELL NO.
I understand that toss players would like to differ, but asking that this tread closed because they don't like it is pushing it...
lol, dude.. if your gonig to increase the energy to 100, then there is no point to the amulet. a 2-3 second animation is not sensible, even if you increase time span. 2-3 is enough to spot it and move away. it would be very difficult to hit anything with the storm. increasing the time span would likely make larger battles totally imbalanced because there are more units to hit and its even harder to micro around aoe for the victim. collosus damage to +light? lol? should the thor or ultralisk only do +light? the whole point of collosus is to help fight marauders, roaches, and the like. gateways units get an even fight by any combination of army consisting mainly of marauders, with or without storm. roaches, with burrow, own storm. the best way to fight them is with collosus, sans air. lol at the warpgate nerf.. that is the best one. having a longer animation the further away from a nexus would do nothing. this is because most of the problems t players have occur when attacking an expo and a ht is warped in near a nexus (durfff). however, if one was to increase the cooldown as well, ! gg nf bl. these are not solutions.
having a longer animation based on unit cost is an idea though.
lol, dude.. if your gonig to increase the energy to 100, then there is no point to the amulet
Exaclty!
2-3 is enough to spot it and move away. it would be very difficult to hit anything with the storm.
Voila!
+light? lol? should the thor or ultralisk only do +light?
Actually, Ultra does +armoured AoE and Thor does +light AoE vs air...
the whole point of collosus is to help fight marauders, roaches, and the like.
Wrong. The point of collosus would still be able to fight marines, cracklings, hydras, etc... All units with insane dps to fight without AoE... Not fight everything that is on the ground... Vs armoured P has another specialist...
having a longer animation based on unit cost is an idea though.
We are talking dude, thats good... But the idea of wrapgates was to help skilled users get that extra production due better multitasking (vs unit queuing), not to give bronze level players the best cheese tool...
lmao how did the tank play work out for rain tank supporters, could it be they got totally countered in the face by a combination of zealots and immortals just like we said???
Also game 2 is a PERFECT example of why insta warp in storms are OP, rain did some excellent emps (which all toss say is all we have to do), got pretty much all the HTs, BAM NEW HTS STORM IN THE FACE GG.
On December 13 2010 23:09 Nakama wrote: When both have their 3 up it becomes rly hard 4 me tp spend my mins in time and i often end up having 1000 overmins and 0 gas. Marines just die to collosi or ht in this stage of the game and arent cost effective if u dont mangae to kill all high tier units at the beginning of the fight. The toss however can mass whatever high tech unit he wants and spend his overmins very easily into mass zealot, which once they have legs are the best dps u can get in my opinion. So while im having trouble to counter ht or colossi and spend most my resources into ghosts or vikings, my bioball jsut dies to spammed zealots.
Spending your money is allways better then not spending. 1000 minnerals could have been 1+ rax and 17 marines. 17 marines>0 marines and are very good vs zealots. Marouders are countered by zealots.
On December 19 2010 12:31 statikg wrote: GSL 3 spoiler:+ Show Spoiler +
lmao how did the tank play work out for rain tank supporters, could it be they got totally countered in the face by a combination of zealots and immortals just like we said????
That's a really dumb thing to say because: A) He wouldn't have done it unless it's worked out very well for him on the Korean ladder as well as with his teammates. B) oGsMC is being regarded as the best protoss right now and TSL_Rain is by far not the best terran so the fact that he did as well as he did anyways was impressive. and C) I dunno about anyone else here but I'm not supporting just tanks I'm supporting tank/hellion combo with some bunkers and turrets thrown in and that's not what Rain was doing he was not doing Mech he was doing a Naama style biomech which BTW won Naama Dreamhack against a Protoss anyways so.
Why are you so against Mech anyways I mean seriously you really want to just mass marauders forever? I don't understand why you think the game should be solved with marauder massing this early upon release. I mean it's a given the marauder is a very good early game unit that can beat the crap outta most other units but once protoss has all of it's ridiculous splash units out and your just massing MMM it becomes less and less cost effective despite sometimes still edging out victories against late game toss and you have to admit that game 2 of Rain vs MC was epic and way better than watching the usual stim-kiting you see every day.
I actually am not doing bio strategies in my TvPs right now I'm doing banshees, I'm against Mech because I really tried to make it work and it failed horribly basically every time, just like it did for rain, immortals and or zealots and even sometimes voids crushed me. You think hellions would have worked better then all those bunkers??? Hellions would have done so much worse...they dont work unless there are SO MANY ZEALOTS becuase the zealots just all charge and line up relatively horizontally while the hellion splash is verticle so its not effective. It needs to be utilized while kiting which is not possible if your using tanks.
Furthermore the Warp Prism which is underused on ladder right now is gonna become much more popular (which is gonna suck so bad) but its gonna be MUCH worse for you using tanks then anyone not using tanks.
Yeah whatever maybe a better terran might have won game 2 using the same strategy but thats a pretty weak argument because MC hardly played that game efficiently going all 3 tech trees on one base, made a bunch of dts and didnt nearly do enough damage with them, double expanded right before the push, and still managed to hold. Rain didnt make any such obvious blunders except you might argue he should have pushed harder on the contain, but the protoss was able to attack RIGHT INTO a bunch of sieged tanks protected by 5+ bunkers and WIN, that REALLY showcases how weak they are. When I was trying tanks out I have had protoss armies attack into my seige tanks before and win with similar army sizes and it just shows you how pathetic they are that you don't even need to catch the tanks unseiged or go around them necessarily.
The game was only good because MC wasted so much money on different tech trees/DTs and then MC still couldn't capitalize.
On December 19 2010 11:54 bluesoup wrote: Wrong. The point of collosus would still be able to fight marines, cracklings, hydras, etc... All units with insane dps to fight without AoE... Not fight everything that is on the ground... Vs armoured P has another specialist.
the Immortal? don't be silly, Marauders are a cost effective counter against Immortals, once stim is out, it is not even close. to be honest, your nerfs are silly, Colossus and HT have to be as powerfull as they are, any nerfs to them has to come along with a buff to gateway units. ... anyways, the real problem with Protoss is forcefields, not the COlossus and not the HT.
On December 19 2010 13:13 Raiznhell wrote: Why are you so against Mech anyways I mean seriously you really want to just mass marauders forever? I don't understand why you think the game should be solved with marauder massing this early upon release. I mean it's a given the marauder is a very good early game unit that can beat the crap outta most other units but once protoss has all of it's ridiculous splash units out and your just massing MMM it becomes less and less cost effective despite sometimes still edging out victories against late game toss and you have to admit that game 2 of Rain vs MC was epic and way better than watching the usual stim-kiting you see every day.
Yes I agree. If for example a protoss goes for 1 gate expand and the 1-2 rax expand into mass mm. He basicly have 3 timing pushes. 1: with 3-5 units and slow, often can get some probes. 2: when stimm is done. 3: when medivacs comes (if protoss has no aoe at this time it is gg because when it is 4 marouders and 1 marine left vs 4 zealots and 2 sentry the medivacs will keep every unit alive)
Later the game becomes mush more difficult for the terran when he can lose his army really fast to aoe. He can however get vikings to combat the colossus and ghost vs the ht but 4 storms that hits and aren't dodged = gg.
So you have your strong timings that is hard for the protoss to survive and if it does not work you have the disadvantages, that your build is mush harder to play in late game.
TvP feels very difficult to me, a protoss player. Changing from MMM with early Hellion harass to tanks and banshees requires you about 10 seconds of lifting structures (just an example). Anything I throw at you I can expect to be countered within the minute.
As for the Ghost vs. Templar discussions that always come up in TvP discussions, I think mathematically they are about even, and it relies more on the player than the unit.
On December 19 2010 10:16 bluesoup wrote: Things for Blizz to consider for next PTR/patch...
1. HT nerf. Remove amulet upgrade or make storm cost 100 energy. Alternatively, nerf storm casting animation (i.e animation starts where storm would hit 2-3 seconds before dealing any damage) and increase time span over which damage is dealt. 2. Colossus nerf. Change their damage output mode to +light, so they wouldn't be so effective vs tanks, thors, buildings, roaches, stalkers, and yes... vs marauders... 3. Warpgate nerf. The further units wrap-in from the closest nexus, the longer wrap-in animation lasts. Add to that longer gate cooldown. The fastest rate should be in area around any nexus about size of average staring base...
Will all above changes combined bring balance... probably no... Is current state of TvP balanced... HELL NO.
I understand that toss players would like to differ, but asking that this tread closed because they don't like it is pushing it...
People are asking for this to be closed because it's just a whine thread, and doesn't belong in the strategy section. Take a look at your own post: if you want to demand poorly-thought-out balance changes, head for the battle.net forums.
For the one or two players who are suggesting useful tactics and strategies, I recommend collecting some replays and making new threads describing your particular TvP methods, so that this pile of rubbish can be allowed to die.
On December 19 2010 13:59 Chargelot wrote: TvP feels very difficult to me, a protoss player. Changing from MMM with early Hellion harass to tanks and banshees requires you about 10 seconds of lifting structures (just an example). Anything I throw at you I can expect to be countered within the minute.
As for the Ghost vs. Templar discussions that always come up in TvP discussions, I think mathematically they are about even, and it relies more on the player than the unit.
Wow that first statement is just beyond stupid. Second statement...how is this for an example, ghosts v HTs is a micro war so they are roughly equal against each other, lets even say that ghosts are slightly ahead 1v1 just for your sake because . Unfortunately, HTs also hard counter all of bio and softcounter banshees and medivacs, and are available much more easily for defence as well as for offense (I won't even go as far as to say instantly anywhere) and are much more effective at defence AND HTs are also AMAZING at totally wiping out SCV lines. Ghosts perhaps soft counter protoss gateway units, cost more, are not at all effective on defense without major support and are infinitely less competent at taking out mineral lines.
Relatively even game with lots of back and forth action. Terran lands 2 emps on clustered protoss army and immediately wins the game.
If you watch the whole game you'll see that terran does a good job of pressuring the protoss so he has no spare gas to spend on warping in more HT once those are hit by emp.
If you let protoss have 5 bases with 6k gas saved up then yeah you're going to be in a rough spot. But suggesting that it is an inevitable situation if the protoss survives past the 15 minute mark is not even close to the truth.
On December 19 2010 13:59 Chargelot wrote: TvP feels very difficult to me, a protoss player. Changing from MMM with early Hellion harass to tanks and banshees requires you about 10 seconds of lifting structures (just an example). Anything I throw at you I can expect to be countered within the minute.
As for the Ghost vs. Templar discussions that always come up in TvP discussions, I think mathematically they are about even, and it relies more on the player than the unit.
Wow that first statement is just beyond stupid. Second statement...how is this for an example, ghosts v HTs is a micro war so they are roughly equal against each other, lets even say that ghosts are slightly ahead 1v1 just for your sake because . Unfortunately, HTs also hard counter all of bio and softcounter banshees and medivacs, and are available much more easily for defence as well as for offense (I won't even go as far as to say instantly anywhere) and are much more effective at defence AND HTs are also AMAZING at totally wiping out SCV lines. Ghosts perhaps soft counter protoss gateway units, cost more, are not at all effective on defense without major support and are infinitely less competent at taking out mineral lines.
Have you ever fought a Protoss army that doesn't have any shields? Our units don't have infinite health and 6 shields. They're a massive portion of the unit's total damage. They're 33% of a zealot's total damage, 42% of colossi damage, more than half the usefulness of immortals, and (I can already hear you crying over this example) 97% of an Archon's damage.
High Templar are useless without energy. Ghosts sap all energy from it's EMP target. EMP deals 100 damage instantly to higher tech protoss units. EMP works against structures, and therefore can render a nexus unable to chronoboost.
Storm deals a crap-ton of damage to bio, and is only more accessible than a ghost because the protoss player warps them in faster, which is what tips the scales to even.
Maybe it's not the unit that is bad, but rather your experiences with it and the way you handled them. (which was my point).
I'm completely fascinated about doing a better job of solving this matchup, and I think no top players have shown very solid gameplans for the matchup.
But, I would completely be against nerfing P in any way. I think amulet storm is ridiculously strong, but until we see better T gameplay, it's too early to judge. Leave everything the way it is, wait a few more months and then we can see.
The only minor comment I want to throw in there is that T has a lot of deadweight units. Thor, BC, reaper are all pretty lackluster. Thor is like something you might get 1 of to ward off muta harass in a fragile FE/transition. Completely terrible in straight up combat against everything. BC is completely reliant on yamato to be efficient.
But since none of these units are core, perhaps nothing needs fixing. My prediction is that other races get new units for the expansion, and T gets their deadweight units fixed to counter those new things.
Storming a mineral line is kind of a waste unless you are sitting on too much gas, or a terran has a super-saturated base (30ish scvs or more). Getting a templar to a terran mineral line to kill 3 or 4 scvs shouldn't happen if the terran is keeping you honest.
Have you ever fought a Protoss army that doesn't have any shields? Our units don't have infinite health and 6 shields. They're a massive portion of the unit's total damage. They're 33% of a zealot's total damage, 42% of colossi damage, more than half the usefulness of immortals, and (I can already hear you crying over this example) 97% of an Archon's damage.
High Templar are useless without energy. Ghosts sap all energy from it's EMP target. EMP deals 100 damage instantly to higher tech protoss units. EMP works against structures, and therefore can render a nexus unable to chronoboost.
Storm deals a crap-ton of damage to bio, and is only more accessible than a ghost because the protoss player warps them in faster, which is what tips the scales to even.
Maybe it's not the unit that is bad, but rather your experiences with it and the way you handled them. (which was my point).
You didn't address my argument at all, I addressed every one of your points in my first post and pointed out why the HT is superior to the ghost in its role.
But lets go over your little platinum world logic HT can also sap all energy from ghosts -> ghosts are useless when they are dead, high Templar without energy can turn into archons (even assuming the ghost surives, hes gonna die in 1second to colossus or .25 of a storm. - but as I said, ghosts I think have a slight advantage here still because of tiny bit of extra range and cloak
Storms can do up to 100% damage on all units
EMP deals more damage and instantly but its capped at a maximum and protoss units have more overall health, this means protoss are not forced to run away from EMP - one of the key points for HTs.
Anyone who uses an emp on a nexus is retarded moving on
Unless your a 3000 P, doubtful considering your ridiculous posts, I doubt you have more experience then me.
On December 19 2010 14:30 Resistentialism wrote: Storming a mineral line is kind of a waste unless you are sitting on too much gas, or a terran has a super-saturated base (30ish scvs or more). Getting a templar to a terran mineral line to kill 3 or 4 scvs shouldn't happen if the terran is keeping you honest.
Ever heard of warp prisms? 3 storms = entire mineral line dead, and Templar can potentially still escape in the warp prism. Probably closer to 6scvs per storm, which is worth far more cumulatively then the 300minerals it costs to replace them and can make a huge impact on the game.
On December 13 2010 23:24 4Servy wrote: once protoss has the amulet its gg, its ridic how imba that upgrade is my dog can win with protoss after they got the amulet.
This may or may not be true. But if it's true, it just means you probably need to win with a timing attack before they get the amulet. They're incredibly vulnerable before they get it.
I'm sure people will eventually start splitting their marines to avoid storms as well, just like to avoid banelings.
EMP is quite good but its more of an variable damage instant can't be lethal AOE attack than something like Storm which gives you positional and damage that kills. No shields sounds good on paper but that's only 40-80 damage on your core gate way army which sounds great but pales in comparison relative to what Storm can do to a T bio army.
I will make the claim that Storm vs T is relatively better than EMP vs Toss. Why?
On the simplest level, T bio units are much more squishy than their P counter parts and rely on their high DPS and range to kill units before they can do much damage to the bio ball:
Against a spell-less Toss army, the bioball just steams rolls everything due to the stupid amount of DPS. However because of how fragile T units and the relatively high DPS/HP, if you have a unit like the colossus or the high templar that can actually damage the T army before it can apply its DPS, it is devastating for T.
On a higher level, Storm is positional and simultaneously attacks and protects by forcing the T army to move and preventing the T army from applying its superior DPS while also preventing damage to the P army.
Like in B-Dub, it is the tip of spear for the late game Protoss army. You place it and T has to move or its DPS will be cut drastically because T units are so low on HP. So T moves, no big deal right? Well, not for one or two storms, but when you go up in number to 5+ storms in the bank, T is taking damage from each storm and losing units and has to keep falling back while the Protoss army advances doing damage with stalkers and closing with zealots all the while taking reduced damage from the bio ball because its moving and can't form an arc and may be forced onto unfavorable Terran.
That doesn't mean EMP is garbage or anything, if you can EMP the energy on a clump of Templar then you win the game because your allow your army to be effective at forming a stim arc and applying your damage and killing P's units faster than P can kill yours. This then basically comes down to accuracy and speed of clicking along with having the correct amount of vision.
TL:DR - Don't rely on EMP for the 100 damage to shields with AOE, EMP is only as good as how many energy you units you can render invalid. Therefor, don't compare EMP and Storm against each other because they are used differently.
Have you ever fought a Protoss army that doesn't have any shields? Our units don't have infinite health and 6 shields. They're a massive portion of the unit's total damage. They're 33% of a zealot's total damage, 42% of colossi damage, more than half the usefulness of immortals, and (I can already hear you crying over this example) 97% of an Archon's damage.
High Templar are useless without energy. Ghosts sap all energy from it's EMP target. EMP deals 100 damage instantly to higher tech protoss units. EMP works against structures, and therefore can render a nexus unable to chronoboost.
Storm deals a crap-ton of damage to bio, and is only more accessible than a ghost because the protoss player warps them in faster, which is what tips the scales to even.
Maybe it's not the unit that is bad, but rather your experiences with it and the way you handled them. (which was my point).
You didn't address my argument at all, I addressed every one of your points in my first post and pointed out why the HT is superior to the ghost in its role.
But lets go over your little platinum world logic HT can also sap all energy from ghosts -> ghosts are useless when they are dead, high Templar without energy can turn into archons (even assuming the ghost surives, hes gonna die in 1second to colossus or .25 of a storm. - but as I said, ghosts I think have a slight advantage here still because of tiny bit of extra range and cloak
Storms can do up to 100% damage on all units
EMP deals more damage and instantly but its capped at a maximum and protoss units have more overall health, this means protoss are not forced to run away from EMP - one of the key points for HTs.
Anyone who uses an emp on a nexus is retarded moving on
Unless your a 3000 P, doubtful considering your ridiculous posts, I doubt you have more experience then me.
Somehow your child-like way of ranting, and using personal insults to support your over-biased point-of-view doesn't seem to be too effective.
Ghosts have utility other than front-line EMP immortal killers. Archons are an out for a useless unit which can not attack, and they usually don't live long enough to prove effective against a terran player. Yes they're big, yes they're powerful, but so is a well place and timed nuke.
Sticking to the core argument of Ghost EMP vs High Templar Storm: EMP has a range of 10, and an area of effect radius of 2. Ghosts have a sight range of 11. Feedback has a range of 9. HTs have a sight range of 10. If you didn't get cloak, or your opponent has an observer, it is still more than possible to successfully micro EMP vs. HTs, rendering them completely useless individually, and forcing them to become Archon if you hit more then one or he has one in the back with no energy.
If the terran player is good at micro, he/she can EMP an HT before the HT even has vision of the ghost.
And for a ghost to die in .50 (as .25 is literally impossible) seconds of storm, there would need to be a total of 10 storms on the ghost. Storm hits for 10 damage every half a second for 4 seconds.
It would be better to buff terran mech units than nerfing some P units/buildings since this would make terran mech builds viable against other matchups and not ruin the balance for other matchups for P.
Ive been thinking about using possible mech builds against P for quite some time now and these are some of the analysis and conclusions that I came across.
Firstly, we have to understand why mech builds work for SC1. In SC1, we have the vultures. These units play three roles in the TvP matchup. First role is the ability to harass due to their fast movement speed and can kill workers with two hits without any upgrades. Secondly, it has the ability to obtain map control with the ability to lay spider mines. The importance of spider mines are huge because they achieve three important roles. They allow for a safer FE in the early game by containing the P with mines (forcing P to get Obs, countering DT rushes), act as a buffer to tank lines, and allow map control due to their vision/compensates the lack of mobility of a mech army. Lastly, the vultures also act as the buffer to the tank lines and also a counter to zealots.
In comparison, we have a unit replacing vultures call hellions in SC2. Hellions are fantastic units for harassing due to their splash and damage upgrade to Light units. In army engagement scenarios, they also act as a buffer to tanks while scorching zealots in big numbers. However unlike vultures, hellions do not have the ability to lay mines which means that the advantages provided by the spider mines are all down the toilet.
If we were to imagine that hellions were allowed to lay spiders mines in SC2, this would provide: -Another method of providing a defense against early game stalker aggression. -Force observers from P users which takes up valuable robo time. -Make P think twice before attempting blink stalkers to bypass the front door, or going around the backdoor via destructible debris/Rock. -Provide another counter to DTs instead of investing Into the starport/Raven. -Force P to go into a macro game instead of attempting any sort of 4 gate shenanigans.
However in Reality, there are no spider mines in SC2. This makes early game aggression from P that much harder to defend that starting with any sort of mech build can be punished. Opening with hellions can be a very risky business which force T users to indefinitely go with the 2~3 rax openings. Why not open with tanks (into FE)? note:along with rines, bunkers and some simcity.
In SC1 tanks are a devastating unit and are the core of the T mech army. Because of the frightening damage that these units dish out, they play a vital role of setting up containments or defensive positions that make P users think twice before committing an attack to a tank fortified position. Having 2~3 tanks with a bunker/rines provides a safe protection for attempting an FE in the early game. Hence any early game dragoon aggression is immediately countered by having siege mode ready. Now the question is why doesn't this work in SC2? One of the reasons is the different damage systems in SC1 and SC2.
The tank damage in siege mode is considered to be of "explosive splash" type in SC1. They deal full 70 damage to large units such as the dragoons, and 35 damage to small units such as zealots (75% to medium sized units e.g hydralisks) However a big difference is that siege tanks deal full damage to shields before considering size. In comparison, SC2 tanks not only deal less damage while using a different damage system. For instance, a stalker would be dealt the full 50 damage (35+15 bonus), while zealot would be dealt with 35 damage ignoring whether or not its hitting the shield or the actual unit itself. Tanks in SC2 seem much less fearsome but are also plagued by other reasons that make them used less and less in TvP. Those are:
-Cheap units like zealots can take 5 tank shots, while units like immortals take alot more forcing gas constrained T to invest into either ghost tech for emp or make them think twice before getting tanks. Just to further emphasize the point, units like the colossus require 7 shots i.e. most P units can take alot of punishment unlike SC1. -Vulnerability to early air aggression to P, e.g voidrays and phoenixes. -The blink ability can bypass any fortified tank line without having to worry about any mine fields and force the T to unsiege. -Require 3 supply, more gas (although some argue that better AI, faster attack speed, +1 extra range and +10 HP compensates for this, Id rather have 2supply/100gas back).
Because armories are essential to all mech builds, these allow T in both SC1 and SC2 to have access to the third mech unit provided by the factory. Goliath (SC1) and Thor (SC2). These units theoretically provide the valuable AA (GTA) defense 100% required by mech armies. The striking difference between the goliath and the thor is that the goliath is an ideal AA unit while the thor is not. Thors are expensive, supply hungry units that take alot of time to build. They dont really dish out much damage to armoured air units such as Voidrays and will lose in a 1v1 situation. In comparison, a goliath is cheaper, takes up 2 supply and provides decent AA because they can be massed (adjusting their numbers to the amount of P air units). Both units also provide decent shielding of the tanks and can dish out some damage to ground units.
Its economically/strategically suicidal to pump thors against P and their weakness to a variety of P units in SC2, most users opt to use rines or vikings as key AA units. Here we see a problem. They are just not ideal AA (ATG) factory based units which means that the T has to stick to bio or invest into starport tech/vikings. Most choose the former, but sometimes vikings are produced since they are also an ideal counter to the colossus. This creates a problem of having to invest into different tech tree ala the starport tech instead of building additional factories (marines in the late game are prone to being fried by storms/colossus so vikings are the only way to go). So now in SC2 the mech composition must include vikings into its composition and fill in the huge gap that the goliath have left from SC1.
So summarizing with regards to unit compositions, mech builds in SC1 work because of the synergies that exist between different factory only units. Vultures, tanks and goliaths all help each other by covering up their weaknesses and are i.e. dependent on each other. On top of that, the majority of the investments are made along one tech tree (factory/armory). Compared to SC2, such synergies don't quite exist between the factory units and other tech trees must be invested such as starport tech for AA and ghost tech for EMP.
Maps also play an important factor since any map with: -short rush distance like SoW -backdoors Will make mech builds not viable. I wont go indepth about issues with the current map pool since there is like a million threads about it but there are certainly an issue with maps with regards to balance.
So going back to the viability of mech builds in TvP in SC2, Id say in its current form it has too many risks compared to bio builds and any mistakes using a mech build can be much more punishing. So something like bio -> mech transition is more favorable than mech -> mech. Even if one decides to transition into mech, the weaknesses and lack of synergy between the mech units make it less appealing compared to an even bigger MMM+ghost/viking.
Its quite sad that once there are both HT and colossus on the field, it becomes quite impossible to fight this kind of composition with regards to MMM+ghost/viking.
edit - kind of a brain dump I did here, and there are bound to be mistakes so please correct me if i am wrong. I was going to go on about what kind of buffs could make mech viable but im spending far too much time sorting the ideas out.. and also add to the above if ive missed anything.
Have you ever fought a Protoss army that doesn't have any shields? Our units don't have infinite health and 6 shields. They're a massive portion of the unit's total damage. They're 33% of a zealot's total damage, 42% of colossi damage, more than half the usefulness of immortals, and (I can already hear you crying over this example) 97% of an Archon's damage.
High Templar are useless without energy. Ghosts sap all energy from it's EMP target. EMP deals 100 damage instantly to higher tech protoss units. EMP works against structures, and therefore can render a nexus unable to chronoboost.
Storm deals a crap-ton of damage to bio, and is only more accessible than a ghost because the protoss player warps them in faster, which is what tips the scales to even.
Maybe it's not the unit that is bad, but rather your experiences with it and the way you handled them. (which was my point).
You didn't address my argument at all, I addressed every one of your points in my first post and pointed out why the HT is superior to the ghost in its role.
But lets go over your little platinum world logic HT can also sap all energy from ghosts -> ghosts are useless when they are dead, high Templar without energy can turn into archons (even assuming the ghost surives, hes gonna die in 1second to colossus or .25 of a storm. - but as I said, ghosts I think have a slight advantage here still because of tiny bit of extra range and cloak
Storms can do up to 100% damage on all units
EMP deals more damage and instantly but its capped at a maximum and protoss units have more overall health, this means protoss are not forced to run away from EMP - one of the key points for HTs.
Anyone who uses an emp on a nexus is retarded moving on
Unless your a 3000 P, doubtful considering your ridiculous posts, I doubt you have more experience then me.
Somehow your child-like way of ranting, and using personal insults to support your over-biased point-of-view doesn't seem to be too effective.
Ghosts have utility other than front-line EMP immortal killers. Archons are an out for a useless unit which can not attack, and they usually don't live long enough to prove effective against a terran player. Yes they're big, yes they're powerful, but so is a well place and timed nuke.
Sticking to the core argument of Ghost EMP vs High Templar Storm: EMP has a range of 10, and an area of effect radius of 2. Ghosts have a sight range of 11. Feedback has a range of 9. HTs have a sight range of 10. If you didn't get cloak, or your opponent has an observer, it is still more than possible to successfully micro EMP vs. HTs, rendering them completely useless individually, and forcing them to become Archon if you hit more then one or he has one in the back with no energy.
If the terran player is good at micro, he/she can EMP an HT before the HT even has vision of the ghost.
And for a ghost to die in .50 (as .25 is literally impossible) seconds of storm, there would need to be a total of 10 storms on the ghost. Storm hits for 10 damage every half a second for 4 seconds.
storm doesnt stack so damage will be caped at the standard dps.
On December 19 2010 14:51 Chargelot wrote: Somehow your child-like way of ranting, and using personal insults to support your over-biased point-of-view doesn't seem to be too effective.
Ghosts have utility other than front-line EMP immortal killers. Archons are an out for a useless unit which can not attack, and they usually don't live long enough to prove effective against a terran player. Yes they're big, yes they're powerful, but so is a well place and timed nuke.
Sticking to the core argument of Ghost EMP vs High Templar Storm: EMP has a range of 10, and an area of effect radius of 2. Ghosts have a sight range of 11. Feedback has a range of 9. HTs have a sight range of 10. If you didn't get cloak, or your opponent has an observer, it is still more than possible to successfully micro EMP vs. HTs, rendering them completely useless individually, and forcing them to become Archon if you hit more then one or he has one in the back with no energy.
If the terran player is good at micro, he/she can EMP an HT before the HT even has vision of the ghost.
And for a ghost to die in .50 (as .25 is literally impossible) seconds of storm, there would need to be a total of 10 storms on the ghost. Storm hits for 10 damage every half a second for 4 seconds.
Wow you can't read and you can't argue, awesome, now pointing out that I employed ad hominem against you in addition to my valid points because of how frustratingly ignorant you are is really going to help you!
You ignored me again and focused on the only point that you have, which I have already semi conceded, that in a straight up ranged spellcaster fight 1v1 ghosts slightly beat HT. Which is only applicable to straight up theorycrafting assuming that there is no other units on the field giving sight and that emp is always on my finger tips about to be let go and that I always have perfect information...right.
Archons are excellent meat shields and deal significant damage if they manage to get in range, they arent great because of their poor range and high gas cost, but you certainly can't ignore them on the battlefield and drawing an analogy between them and a nuke is outrageous exaggeration,
I said that the injured ghost will die in .25 of a storm, not .25 of a second, and you didn't stick to the core argument you just stuck to the one point about range that your harping on about. Ridiculous.
PS my POV is obviously biased - over-biased is a redundant statement.
a lotta whining and crying going on in this thread by T over the amulate and that HT are OP blah blah blah it's game over...
hey... top teir tech units like HT should crush low teir units like marines! make something else after 40 mins into the game! You only have a whole tech tree
ROAR BANSHEES ARE OP THEY FORCE ME TO MAKE A ROBO CUZ P HAS NO OTHER DETECTION NERF NERF NERF
On December 13 2010 22:49 EasternSun wrote: Funny how conveniently you choose such replays,i can show you tons of pro replays in where terrans decimate protoss,not to speak what it is the matchup in the highest lvls.True it is terran favored - the facts shows that. As for those matchups,when the two pro players are going at it,we can assume they have almost the same lvl of macro,so it's decided pretty much from unit combinations and in-game decisions as well as micro. Seems to me another QQ thread,learn what in-game decisions and unit combination are good and what are bad at certain cases,then come again QQ-ing about the matchup.I suggest go and find replays where terrans wins(there are so many of them),and then come and post useless threads.That way your time will be better spent,instead of digging 2 or 3 replays where protoss wins because of terran player mistakes.
TROLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
goo to battle.net and look up their statistics b4 you state something that aint true (:
If this thread doesn't get back on track from being an storm-vs-emp-omg-imba whine fest really fast, I'm going to lock this faster than Chris Hansen locks up predators. The quote in the OP isn't helping.
when t is walking around with a shit ton of t1 units and a couple medivacs, toss walks out with t1 and a load of teched up units....... surely the result is obvious? as a P i think the MU is fine :O
I just got a brilliant idea. (it might not be brilliant to you guys so please say something)
Marines should start with 40 HP (5 less than they do now) this way Marine/SCV all ins will be a lot weaker and a lot more defendable for zerg players. Also it will make any kind of marine banshee all ins vs protoss easier to defend.
The 2nd change will be make combat shield upgrade give marine 20 HP so they will hav 60 HP, 5 more than what they have now with combat shield.
It will allow them to survive the banelings / collosi / storm easier. Which will help terrans a lot in the mid game or late mid game
All-ins that work well doesn't make the unit in it overpowered. It's an all-in, it's supposed to very hard to stop. Just because a Korean 4 gate all-in could be very difficult to stop if not scouted early enough doesn't mean gateway units should be reduced in efficiency early on. 60hp marines would be very strong in the early-to-midgame, putting even more focus on Marines.
The problem isn't any single thing, ability or unit. It's a combination of them.
Just Storm is manageable with Mech/Tanks as is Gateway + Colossi. Just Chargelots is manageable with Bio + Stim. Mass Colossi is counterable by Marauders + Vikings.
It's when Storm + Chargelots + Colossi enter the game that Terran ends up with very little that still works against it. Chargelots make Mech redundant (tanks do friendly fire, thors get surrounded), opening the field for Storm and Colossi. Chargelots are best dealt with by Bio + Stim, which die very quickly to Storm and Colossi.
My main issue as a Terran player are Chargelots. They are so cheap and yet so effective at completely shutting down a whole tech path for Terran, leaving primarily Bio left as a counter, which dies in turn to Colossi or Storm. The fact that Tanks cost 25 additional gas and require 5 shots to kill one Chargelot doesn't help much either.
Warp-in Storms I'm not sure about. Against Bio it is devastating, but against Mech it doesn't do all that much, bringing us back again to Chargelots, costing only 100 minerals each.
On December 19 2010 19:50 darth_hater wrote: basically whoever decided to make thors and hellions a unit in sc2 should be fired
i would add colossus to that list, only red alert tainted mind would change river which required skill and finess to use to fast moving 1a cliff walking unit which breaks ground army balance in this game, when massed it basically forces opponents to go air because theres no ground unit which can match with its power and changes pvp into stupid war of worlds.
Remove that stupid "top player quote" for god sakes, or at least put all of them in and not only the one that agrees with your complaining.
"Please do NOT flame and keep it a nice discussion. I putted some work in this thread and I don't want an admin to close it. I advice to watch the replays before commenting."
I find this very ironic as you seem to be doing everything to make it look like you just lose because protoss is imba.
collosus are t3 collosus is supposed to own ground. wtf are you people talking about? its like youve never played the game. collosus is a t3 unit. however, that doesnt mean for a second that they are imbalanced. they force you to make air? so what? what kind of fucking argument is this? banshee forces robo. marauder forces air or zealots. mass banshee forces air (care to see me get owned by it like an idiot? omg i my 40 stalkers got beat by 40 banshee oomg IMBA IMBA). the term counter comes to mind.
i didn't read this entire thread, but as for mech, i think there is some potential.
most of the arguments against it were due to lack of detection and anti air, but after watching a game with goody, he solved this by making lots of turrets. to pay for all these turrets, he completely cut marines except for a few early game. he also opened with blue flame helion drop (which wasn't very successful), and continued to harass minerals lines with them. this made the toss make defensive cannons. one key point to making his mech work was very fast upgrades to +3 vehicle weapons. he also builds ghosts of course. it's a hard turtle for protoss to crack.
overall i've had some success with this, but theres 2 problems. the first is you're pretty vulnerable early (this i feel i can eventually fix) and second is protoss mass expanding without attacking. because of that second problem i generally only use this on smaller 2 player maps. i love this build on jungle basin
but yea, turrets are really good against protoss air, especially with the +1 range upgrade from the ebay.
On December 19 2010 20:50 adamb111 wrote: collosus are t3 collosus is supposed to own ground. wtf are you people talking about? its like youve never played the game. collosus is a t3 unit. however, that doesnt mean for a second that they are imbalanced. they force you to make air? so what? what kind of fucking argument is this? banshee forces robo. marauder forces air or zealots. mass banshee forces air (care to see me get owned by it like an idiot? omg i my 40 stalkers got beat by 40 banshee oomg IMBA IMBA). the term counter comes to mind.
Yes, we get that collossus and Storm are T3 and therefore own T1 units. The fundamental problem is that, unlike your T3, our T3 units do not work that way. Thors would be the technicological counterpart the the collossus. However, they lose badly to T1 (zealots), even without charge. They also do not deal splash damage like the collossus do (which is linear splash btw, not like our tanks radial splash).
So please, when you state something like "colls are T3 they SHOULD roflstomp T1", please provide insight to what T3 unit we should use to roflstomp your T1.
We terrans are very well aware of the fact that P lategame units own our T1. The only reason we still stick to T1 is that our alternatives do not work. This the the whole point of this threat: to discuss what alternatives we have to bio in lategame.
BTW: IMO "tier" system is not applicable to SC2 and should therefore not be used. Whatever is T1/2/3 anyway ? T1 = barracks, T2 = factory, T3 = starport ? So technically my T3 would be only air ? So what are BCs then ? T4 ? So please, unless someone can specifically define the tier-system, don't use it.
Having listened to a lot of discussions where people mention tier, I think "Tier" refers usually to the amount of food a unit uses.
If it uses 1-2 food, it's Tier 1, if it uses 2-4 food, it's Tier 2, and if it uses 5+ food it's Tier 3. Rax units are Tier 1, except for the marauder which is, uh, Tier 1.6. Hellions are Tier 1 or 2, and Tanks are Tier 2. Thors are tier 3. Anything that comes out of a Starport and isn't a Battlecruiser is Tier 2, and the Battlecruiser is Tier 3.. This kind of breaks down when you have units like High Templar which are 2 food and are not tier 1, and probably not tier 2, or Archons which are 4 food but probably better than 2x Vikings...
Basically, when people talk about "T3" or something, they basically are talking about food-intensive units. I don't think "T3" always roflstomps "T1" since the Tiers are not really well defined, and you get questions like "well what does Mothership do against like 8 Marines" etc etc. Clearly balance between tech can't be easily shunted into a Tier system, but people do it anyways since it may aid conversation. Like any simplification of a complex system, you lose detail but MAY gain insight.
I think it's more reasonable to say that Templar take a lot of teching to get to, and Marines usually don't, and Templar are designed to be good against Marines, so they are highly cost-effective. Inevitably, we pose the question: what similar cost-effective high-tech answers can Terran bring to the table, similar to the Templar?
I think its funny how many people have derailed from the ops topic. Typical zerg players whined back when mech was overused against zerg. Terran players kept telling zerg players play better and find a way and if a change happens to occur to help you out then great. Likewise apparently now with little to no changes protoss is "Imba" vs terran. The point the op appears to be making is the following: Here is a game where the terran player does good early on but gets into late game and looses. The infantry loses vitality overtime. He then asks well is mech a logical way to go? (and does not directly ask this but is bio mech the way to go?) Some higher tier players have commented (Jinro) and other people as well saying problems with mech. Mech and biomech have their advantages and disadvantages. For example both are slightly less mobile than a traditional MMM ball. But a player who goes for mech units hopefully knows this and knows that alot of the damage they will be doing will be harrasment. Does this make it viable? I dunno it works for me at high diamond level and until I begin to lose with it regularly at that level I don't intend to change.
Also in other note to those who say that the people trying mech in tournaments just lose to things mech is supposed to lose against. Well duh... Do you think the toss would of won with that composition if the terran went for a more infantry centric build? Maybe, maybe not. These top tier players wouldn't be randomly trying it in a tournament unless it was working for them on the ladder or with their practice partners. Also of course their are not many games up with the terran going mech. Mech is not the standard therefore replays will be limited.
I will close this with an example day9 liked to use. In BW FEing in a pvz was unheard of and zerg apparently had a decently high win ratio vs protoss. Then the bisu build becomes popularized and suddenly fast expanding works a lot better. I didn't follow the sc1 pro scene too well so if their other ways this build came about then I apologize. But it seems to me without any interference from blizzard toss players made it work.
On December 20 2010 00:28 Blazinghand wrote: I think it's more reasonable to say that Templar take a lot of teching to get to, and Marines usually don't, and Templar are designed to be good against Marines, so they are highly cost-effective. Inevitably, we pose the question: what similar cost-effective high-tech answers can Terran bring to the table, similar to the Templar?
The unit that fills a similar role to the templar (caster based-aoe) in the terran army is the raven. However, you'd be hard pressed to find a lot of games with more than one (if even) raven being used by the terrans. And even then it's usually not used for the aoe but rather as mobile detector and for other utitlity (PDD). Mass Raven is a tactic i have rarely seem and never in a TvP. So why do P use mass templars yet T don't use more Ravens ?
- Raven offers Detection while Templars do not. - Ravens are faster and more mobile due to air. - Ravens have 140 hp compared to 80 and have 1 armor compared to 0. - Ravens have 3 spells compared to templar's 2 - Ravens can be build out of a building that most terrans get anyway, while templars specifically require Templar Archives.
sounds good so far, however:
- Ravens cost 100/200 rather than 50/150. - Ravens are build out of a 200/125 cost building rather than a 150/0 Gateway. - Templars can be warped in anywhere near a pylon / prism. - Ravens take 60s to build while Templars only 45s.
So Templars are cheaper, easier and more conveniently mass-produced. Which is ok, given that Ravens are more mobile, have more hp and have detection. Now compare the main spell, Psi-Storm to Seeker Missile.
- Psi Storm is 80 damage over 4s, homogeniously in the casting area (1.5 radius). - Seeker Missile is 100 damage, radial splash (only 100% in 0.6 radius, 50% in 1.2 radius and 25% in 2.4 radius). - Psi Storm is 75 energy, Seeker Missile is 125 energy. - Psi Storm is casting range of 9, Seeker Missile has only 6 - Psi Storm can be partially avoided by moving out all affected units (you will still get at least 1 tick, 2 with slower units). - Seeker Missile can be completely avoided by moving out the affected unit, partially avoided with very slow units.
This is only comparing the main AoE spell of both units, obviously they do also have secondary spells that are also useful. I think it is obvious that Psi Storm and Seeker Missile are comparable spells, however the reduced casting range and obscenely high energy cost make Seeker Missile the inferior spell. If Seeker Missile would only cost 75 energy and had a casting range of 9 (hello, beta), we'd see a lot of ravens used in the MU as well.
I think that the raven was the intended high-tech counter to mass gateway units, just like templars are the high-tech counter to mass barracks units. However, in the current state of the game, they cannot fulfil this role, due to how over-nerfed Seeker Missile was.
Edit: I forgot to mention that Missile can be spammed while Psi-Storm doesn't stack, which is huge, obviously. However i still think both spells are comparable and should thus, cost the same.
Tiers are a matter of tech, roughly corresponding to hatchery, lair, hive. Zealots and stalkers are T1. Chargelots and immortals are T2. Colossi are T3.
But I see a lot of Protoss arguing that of course T3 toss units beat T1 terran units. Sorry, but that's not how the game works. Do you ever stop building zealots because "they're T1, I have colossi now, so that's all I need?" What's the correct response if you see the Terran player is massing thors? A: Thors are T3, so you can only respond with Void Rays and Carriers if you want to win. B: Thors are slow and get destroyed by zealot stalker mixes, so expand and outproduce.
Going by patch history, it looks like Blizzard wants Thors to be an endgame terran unit (removing energy to prevent feedback, nerfing tanks and battlecruisers). But they just don't work as-is because they get beat pound for pound by zealots and outranged by colossi. Vikings are only a half answer because they serve little use after colossi are off the field and (unless you grossly overproduce them) they won't kill the colossi until terrible terrible damage has been done already.
Vikings and thors highlight another problem with late game PvT. Late game toss armies benefit from the same +attack +armor upgrades as early game armies. Not true of any terran transition, which dramatically increases the startup costs of a tech switch.
Also hellion splash is horrible in straight up combat. Colossi have the best splash (due to units' natural tendency to arc out horizontally) hellions have the worst splash (due to the same).
On December 20 2010 01:09 ocdscale wrote: Tiers are a matter of tech, roughly corresponding to hatchery, lair, hive. Zealots and stalkers are T1. Chargelots and immortals are T2. Colossi are T3.
But I see a lot of Protoss arguing that of course T3 toss units beat T1 terran units. Sorry, but that's not how the game works. Do you ever stop building zealots because "they're T1, I have colossi now, so that's all I need?" What's the correct response if you see the Terran player is massing thors? A: Thors are T3, so you can only respond with Void Rays and Carriers if you want to win. B: Thors are slow and get destroyed by zealot stalker mixes, so expand and outproduce.
Going by patch history, it looks like Blizzard wants Thors to be an endgame terran unit (removing energy to prevent feedback, nerfing tanks and battlecruisers). But they just don't work as-is because they get beat pound for pound by zealots and outranged by colossi. Vikings are only a half answer because they serve little use after colossi are off the field and (unless you grossly overproduce them) they won't kill the colossi until terrible terrible damage has been done already.
Vikings and thors highlight another problem with late game PvT. Late game toss armies benefit from the same +attack +armor upgrades as early game armies. Not true of any terran transition, which dramatically increases the startup costs of a tech switch.
Also hellion splash is horrible in straight up combat. Colossi have the best splash (due to units' natural tendency to arc out horizontally) hellions have the worst splash (due to the same).
it would be cool if hellions could have an activated beam attack.... like chippers ulti in hon
On December 20 2010 00:28 Blazinghand wrote: I think it's more reasonable to say that Templar take a lot of teching to get to, and Marines usually don't, and Templar are designed to be good against Marines, so they are highly cost-effective. Inevitably, we pose the question: what similar cost-effective high-tech answers can Terran bring to the table, similar to the Templar?
The unit that fills a similar role to the templar (caster based-aoe) in the terran army is the raven. However, you'd be hard pressed to find a lot of games with more than one (if even) raven being used by the terrans. And even then it's usually not used for the aoe but rather as mobile detector and for other utitlity (PDD). Mass Raven is a tactic i have rarely seem and never in a TvP. So why do P use mass templars yet T don't use more Ravens ?
- Raven offers Detection while Templars do not. - Ravens are faster and more mobile due to air. - Ravens have 140 hp compared to 80 and have 1 armor compared to 0. - Ravens have 3 spells compared to templar's 2 - Ravens can be build out of a building that most terrans get anyway, while templars specifically require Templar Archives.
sounds good so far, however:
- Ravens cost 100/200 rather than 50/150. - Ravens are build out of a 200/125 cost building rather than a 150/0 Gateway. - Templars can be warped in anywhere near a pylon / prism. - Ravens take 60s to build while Templars only 45s.
So Templars are cheaper, easier and more conveniently mass-produced. Which is ok, given that Ravens are more mobile, have more hp and have detection. Now compare the main spell, Psi-Storm to Seeker Missile.
- Psi Storm is 80 damage over 4s, homogeniously in the casting area (1.5 radius). - Seeker Missile is 100 damage, radial splash (only 100% in 0.6 radius, 50% in 1.2 radius and 25% in 2.4 radius). - Psi Storm is 75 energy, Seeker Missile is 125 energy. - Psi Storm is casting range of 9, Seeker Missile has only 6 - Psi Storm can be partially avoided by moving out all affected units (you will still get at least 1 tick, 2 with slower units). - Seeker Missile can be completely avoided by moving out the affected unit, partially avoided with very slow units.
This is only comparing the main AoE spell of both units, obviously they do also have secondary spells that are also useful. I think it is obvious that Psi Storm and Seeker Missile are comparable spells, however the reduced casting range and obscenely high energy cost make Seeker Missile the inferior spell. If Seeker Missile would only cost 75 energy and had a casting range of 9 (hello, beta), we'd see a lot of ravens used in the MU as well.
I think that the raven was the intended high-tech counter to mass gateway units, just like templars are the high-tech counter to mass barracks units. However, in the current state of the game, they cannot fulfil this role, due to how over-nerfed Seeker Missile was.
Edit: I forgot to mention that Missile can be spammed while Psi-Storm doesn't stack, which is huge, obviously. However i still think both spells are comparable and should thus, cost the same.
Ever played against FeedBack. Hell if my ghosts all get perfectly feedbacked every TvP imagine Ravens. Thats why you can't put your gas into ravens. Feed back murders them. And like Templar they don't dish out alot of damage until their massed.
P.S. HSM is 125 gas. Thats 1 missle. And HSM has a range of 6. By the time it launches the Ravens Dead
So so many clueless people in this thread. It's really starting to grow me tiresome, 90% of the arguments here is complete and utter bullshit that should be deleted so that nobody can see it, what's wrong with TL nowadays.. I really don't get why the 10% keeps on posting the same logical arguments when they are just going to get quoted and laughed at by some fucking idiot who doesn't know shit about this game.
On December 20 2010 00:28 Blazinghand wrote: Having listened to a lot of discussions where people mention tier, I think "Tier" refers usually to the amount of food a unit uses.
If it uses 1-2 food, it's Tier 1, if it uses 2-4 food, it's Tier 2, and if it uses 5+ food it's Tier 3. Rax units are Tier 1, except for the marauder which is, uh, Tier 1.6. Hellions are Tier 1 or 2, and Tanks are Tier 2. Thors are tier 3. Anything that comes out of a Starport and isn't a Battlecruiser is Tier 2, and the Battlecruiser is Tier 3.. This kind of breaks down when you have units like High Templar which are 2 food and are not tier 1, and probably not tier 2, or Archons which are 4 food but probably better than 2x Vikings...
Basically, when people talk about "T3" or something, they basically are talking about food-intensive units. I don't think "T3" always roflstomps "T1" since the Tiers are not really well defined, and you get questions like "well what does Mothership do against like 8 Marines" etc etc. Clearly balance between tech can't be easily shunted into a Tier system, but people do it anyways since it may aid conversation. Like any simplification of a complex system, you lose detail but MAY gain insight.
I think it's more reasonable to say that Templar take a lot of teching to get to, and Marines usually don't, and Templar are designed to be good against Marines, so they are highly cost-effective. Inevitably, we pose the question: what similar cost-effective high-tech answers can Terran bring to the table, similar to the Templar?
Lol...reading this post made me laugh, so I decided I'd make a response to it. I've already made my opinion on the OP clear.
Tiers generally refer to how far up the tech tree one needs to go in order to obtain a unit. With the release of SC2 people started to rename tiers with halves (which makes little sense, really.) Tiers are not always consistent, but you can come up with a rough, general outline.
Tiers by race:
Protoss: T1 is zealot, stalker, sentry. Some call stalker and sentry 1.5 because of the cybercore requirement. T2 is immortal, Phoenix, voidray. T3 is colossus, carrier, HT/DT, mothership, archon
You'll notice that in most games, at most 2 tech paths are chosen. A lot of the time one tech path is used for a majority of the game (particularly the robo tech)
Terran: T1 is Marine, Marauder, Reaper. Some players consider Maurauder/Reaper to be 1.5 because of the techlab requirement. T2 is Ghost, Hellion, Siege Tank. T3 is Thor and everything Starport. Battlecruisers are often considered T 3.5, I'd call them T3.
Zerg: T1 is Zergling, Queen, Roach, Baneling. Banes and roaches are often considered 1.5 because of the tech buildings required. T2 is Hydra, Muta, Corruptor, Infestor. T3 is Ultra, Broodlord. Some people call broodlords 3.5 but I have no idea where that logic comes from.
On ravens: HSM was probably overnerfed. As it is vs P currently, Ravens are great to watch out for DTs and lay down PDDs, but they (and the PDDs) are too easily feedbacked. This makes it pretty hard to get a missile, and very discouraging when your raven gets caught as it's trying to fire one (and subsequently gets two shotted thanks to the HP it lost)
I think the biggest problem for T players really is dealing with chargelots. My intuition tells me that the solution lies in Hellion play, but this raises a few issues. Hellions are remarkably frail (they feel weaker than vultures) and their attack animation/wait thing is just too damn long. At 100 minerals each you pretty much have to forego marines for them.
Maybe the solution is hellions and tanks with support: vikings for stargate/colossi. Ghosts. Banshees if it's a pure robo build. Single raven.
IMO the key is in the support and Hellion micro. It should be possible for tanks to waste everything if EMPs take out all the shields, and hellions should soak up damage and kill the chargelots/sentries/HTs. Vikings on colossi is a no-brainer. When I've tried this, though, the problem is always the chargelots. Charging zealots take very little splash damage from hellions and tanks alike, because they charge at slightly different times, causing them to spread naturally prior to engaging. The rapid close also means that you need to immediately shift click tanks on stalkers and whatnot, or they'll blow each other up because of the chargelots.
On December 20 2010 01:33 OutlaW- wrote: So so many clueless people in this thread. It's really starting to grow me tiresome, 90% of the arguments here is complete and utter bullshit that should be deleted so that nobody can see it, what's wrong with TL nowadays.. I really don't get why the 10% keeps on posting the same logical arguments when they are just going to get quoted and laughed at by some fucking idiot who doesn't know shit about this game.
Would you care to point out some of the bullshit and bad arguments, or would you prefer to just be a jerk in the thread with zero constructive feedback?
i feel like its kind of like TvZ in BW. its a battle of ghosts EMP and HT storms or vikings and colossus. i do feel like the amulet upgrade is VERY VERY strong and makes it really hard to kill a toss. but I think the reason every T complains (besides the amulet) is because its easier for toss to get storms off than it is to get good EMPs. if the Terran does get good EMP's on most of the templay the terran is almost guaranteed to walk over the toss army because zealot/stalker/sentry isn't near as strong without the support of collosus or HT.
On December 20 2010 02:41 zekie wrote: i feel like its kind of like TvZ in BW. its a battle of ghosts EMP and HT storms or vikings and colossus. i do feel like the amulet upgrade is VERY VERY strong and makes it really hard to kill a toss. but I think the reason every T complains (besides the amulet) is because its easier for toss to get storms off than it is to get good EMPs. if the Terran does get good EMP's on most of the templay the terran is almost guaranteed to walk over the toss army because zealot/stalker/sentry isn't near as strong without the support of collosus or HT.
just my 2 cents.
The current issue with amulet and ghosts is that even if you manage to EMP every last one HT on the field, you achieved nothing. The moment you do that, 3-4 more will just wrap-in just where needed and still storm your entire army. After the engagement, if both of you lost HTs and ghosts (feedback, snipe, etc...), P will spam few more storm ready in HTs in a few seconds. How much time you need to replenish EMP ready ghost ? The game is over by then...
Reinforcements are what kills Terran (HTs easy on minerals, zealots easy on gas), as there is no way to reinforce casters and meat shield for Terran as toss can. But this has been said so many times before, in this thread and elsewhere... Simply, ghost is not counter for HTs once amulet is researched. Nothing is, that's why it is imba...
On December 20 2010 02:41 zekie wrote: i feel like its kind of like TvZ in BW. its a battle of ghosts EMP and HT storms or vikings and colossus. i do feel like the amulet upgrade is VERY VERY strong and makes it really hard to kill a toss. but I think the reason every T complains (besides the amulet) is because its easier for toss to get storms off than it is to get good EMPs. if the Terran does get good EMP's on most of the templay the terran is almost guaranteed to walk over the toss army because zealot/stalker/sentry isn't near as strong without the support of collosus or HT.
just my 2 cents.
The current issue with amulet and ghosts is that even if you manage to EMP every last one HT on the field, you achieved nothing. The moment you do that, 3-4 more will just wrap-in just where needed and still storm your entire army. After the engagement, if both of you lost HTs and ghosts (feedback, snipe, etc...), P will spam few more storm ready in HTs in a few seconds. How much time you need to replenish EMP ready ghost ? The game is over by then...
Reinforcements are what kills Terran (HTs easy on minerals, zealots easy on gas), as there is no way to reinforce casters and meat shield for Terran as toss can. But this has been said so many times before, in this thread and elsewhere... Simply, ghost is not counter for HTs once amulet is researched. Nothing is, that's why it is imba...
you can upgrade ghosts to have 75 energy when they are finished so just reinforce them and you're ready to EMP all the ones that just got warped in.
On December 20 2010 02:41 zekie wrote: i feel like its kind of like TvZ in BW. its a battle of ghosts EMP and HT storms or vikings and colossus. i do feel like the amulet upgrade is VERY VERY strong and makes it really hard to kill a toss. but I think the reason every T complains (besides the amulet) is because its easier for toss to get storms off than it is to get good EMPs. if the Terran does get good EMP's on most of the templay the terran is almost guaranteed to walk over the toss army because zealot/stalker/sentry isn't near as strong without the support of collosus or HT.
just my 2 cents.
The current issue with amulet and ghosts is that even if you manage to EMP every last one HT on the field, you achieved nothing. The moment you do that, 3-4 more will just wrap-in just where needed and still storm your entire army. After the engagement, if both of you lost HTs and ghosts (feedback, snipe, etc...), P will spam few more storm ready in HTs in a few seconds. How much time you need to replenish EMP ready ghost ? The game is over by then...
Reinforcements are what kills Terran (HTs easy on minerals, zealots easy on gas), as there is no way to reinforce casters and meat shield for Terran as toss can. But this has been said so many times before, in this thread and elsewhere... Simply, ghost is not counter for HTs once amulet is researched. Nothing is, that's why it is imba...
you can upgrade ghosts to have 75 energy when they are finished so just reinforce them and you're ready to EMP all the ones that just got warped in.
unlike protoss units they cant be instantly produced and teleported in the battlefield
On December 20 2010 02:41 zekie wrote: i feel like its kind of like TvZ in BW. its a battle of ghosts EMP and HT storms or vikings and colossus. i do feel like the amulet upgrade is VERY VERY strong and makes it really hard to kill a toss. but I think the reason every T complains (besides the amulet) is because its easier for toss to get storms off than it is to get good EMPs. if the Terran does get good EMP's on most of the templay the terran is almost guaranteed to walk over the toss army because zealot/stalker/sentry isn't near as strong without the support of collosus or HT.
just my 2 cents.
The current issue with amulet and ghosts is that even if you manage to EMP every last one HT on the field, you achieved nothing. The moment you do that, 3-4 more will just wrap-in just where needed and still storm your entire army. After the engagement, if both of you lost HTs and ghosts (feedback, snipe, etc...), P will spam few more storm ready in HTs in a few seconds. How much time you need to replenish EMP ready ghost ? The game is over by then...
Reinforcements are what kills Terran (HTs easy on minerals, zealots easy on gas), as there is no way to reinforce casters and meat shield for Terran as toss can. But this has been said so many times before, in this thread and elsewhere... Simply, ghost is not counter for HTs once amulet is researched. Nothing is, that's why it is imba...
the inability to entirely nullify a tech path and research/time doesn't make a unit imbalanced. that's utterly ridiculous.
this thread is as epic as the game itself since raynor met fenix. having this QQ is sign of the developing matchup, so just discuss more and whine less. i liked many of the concepts different people constructed here. some lulz, some insights
Alright after switching to P for a while I can see that P is definitely imba. It's not as much as I thought, but it's still decently ahead.
I've been in the 2400's as T for a while, unable to improve.
As P I won about half of the 12-15 games that I played on the 2400s ladder w/o knowing any build orders, timings, or having played any P 1v1 games in several months. I can see myself easily advancing to 2600+ in a few weeks as Protoss once I learn the build orders and have more experience dealing with T's attacks.
Strategically, P has the advantage and it feels like the Terran has to seriously outplay P in order to win. For Terran, that means better micro and multi-tasking. Basically, given equal strategic/mechanical skill, a player will probably end up 200+ pts higher on the ladder as P compared to playing T. Having PvZ as almost near free wins also helps.
The problem with complaining about ht's warping in when a nexus is being attacked is much like complaining about planetary fortresses being repaired by 5 scv's.
I think bio with heavy air support might be a potential solution. Banshees and vikings are very mobile and counter everything that come out of the robo. You should ideally have more banshees than vikings and make sure to research cloak to get rid of the energy or be quick enough to snipe obs and then cloak. This strat still has many holes like feedback and phoenix but at least you have a chance to outmicro the Protoss. Maybe add thors to deal with the phoenix? I know this is really gas intensive so I guess the ground army will be mostly marines.
On the side note: ppl who say t3 P should rape bio and Terran don't use high tech enough are all idiots and should stop posting all together. High tech units of Terran don't deal AoE and Terran don't have that imba spell of ffs to protect high tech units while they dish out their insane damage. While ffs is necessary for P in the early game they are really imba later on.
People are turning TvP into a Templar vs. Ghost debate but that's not all there is to the matchup. If a toss blindly gets templar he'll be gas starved to handle non MMM compositions (ie not enough stalkers for BC's). I've found splitting up hellions and banshees for harass on multiple fronts works wonders on slowing down toss economy.
Mistakes on both sides and many times where the game looks pretty even.
Maybe MMM would have been a clearly better choice, but at least at this level that the TvP game still comes down to more positioning and tactics than debates on HT vs. EMP range. Especially if you go a unit composition that discourages/soft counters templar (tanks/bcs/hellions).
Getting ghosts faster seems to be helping me. Previously, I felt a trapped in a sort of dilemma where I had to apply pressure to gain any advantage, but attacking into a Protoss with ready FFs went badly. Getting Ghosts more quickly means EMP on the sentries can allow a stim attack to engage in more favorable circumstances. Of course, high level P players spread out their sentries to prevent exactly that. With effective usage of Sentries, it doesn't really seem like bio rolls over gateway units.
However, it still feels like the advantage tends to swing towards protoss as the game progresses; unless the Protoss is going with an all in (3 Gate + 1 something). The ability to reinforce with chargelots (so good against everything on the ground...) and HTs from a lot of warp gates means that even if my forces win a major battle, Protoss can still muster up a defense that would kill the damaged remains of my army.
At my rather unimpressive ~2200 level, I think I win many games from outmacroing my opponents, both via holding a FE against one base play, and because many players seem extremely hesitant to take a 3rd base. If that doesn't happen, it feels like an uphill struggle.
Fundamentally, Terran strategy seems less robust in TvP than Protoss play. It's full of Surprise! type attacks (hellion drop, runby, fast banshee, the mid-late mass cloaked banshee that tries to snipe the observer, PDD pushes, etc) that can be stopped easily if foreseen - the danger is that there's generally so many threats that are hard to scout and require divergent defenses. Make plenty of Stalkers to defend against 1-1-1 hellion drop, and the 1-1-1 Raven attack is pretty damn tough. But a lot of these attacks basically seem like gimmicks that can either be fended off if scouted or predicted, or simply bashed through by protoss all ins, which aren't so dependent on say the energy level of a single fragile unit, or SCVs on the front line. Look at the "anti-colossus" build which has more starports than rax - should protoss even need colossus when Terran is investing most of its money into air? Not that mass banshee won't kill a lot of people, but it seems like there's a strong hope that the opponent just doesn't respond appropriately.
Certainly, it seems like a common thread in arguments about how Terrans should deal with many Protoss compositions is "Don't let them get that much gas" (because something like Chargelot/Templar/Carrier is monstrous) whereas as Protoss are usually asking about defending 1 base pushes.
On December 20 2010 04:31 vnlegend wrote: Alright after switching to P for a while I can see that P is definitely imba. It's not as much as I thought, but it's still decently ahead.
I've been in the 2400's as T for a while, unable to improve.
As P I won about half of the 12-15 games that I played on the 2400s ladder w/o knowing any build orders, timings, or having played any P 1v1 games in several months. I can see myself easily advancing to 2600+ in a few weeks as Protoss once I learn the build orders and have more experience dealing with T's attacks.
Strategically, P has the advantage and it feels like the Terran has to seriously outplay P in order to win. For Terran, that means better micro and multi-tasking. Basically, given equal strategic/mechanical skill, a player will probably end up 200+ pts higher on the ladder as P compared to playing T. Having PvZ as almost near free wins also helps.
its a cool story so far, but you might wanna back it up to make people really believe it
Wow this thread has become so dragged down since the last time i posted in it. Now people are arguing balance suggestions that's the sign for a thread to be closed. It went from Mech vs Bio (Alls i said was Mech's what i do try giving it a shot I mean what's the worst that can happen and people just started calling me stupid and idiot despite the fact I win with it :/) to now it's talking about how toss is OP or something?
Seriously some things like Khaydarin Amulet might seem OP but they clearly are not as yeah toss is destroying in the lower levels but higher levels craps relatively even. In fact HT is why I switched back to Meching after playing the bio style for awhile because I just find hellions to be phenomenal in dealing with HTs the exact same way you would in BW with suiciding a few to pick them off effectively wasting his gas for nothing plus what's he gunna do with HTs against well spread tanks and bunkers storm each one? Situational obviously.
Still this thread is the typical Storm vs EMP balance arguments now and honestly I don't see a ton of games wheres it's actually come down to storm vs EMP. I've seen some but not a lot. Usually it's marauder/viking against zlot/stalker/collossi and this is just me but I'm getting very tired of watching that already whereas TvP in BW was my favorite match up to watch and still is after years.
I'm just gunna end with the fact that I'm glad that Factory units are getting more play and working out ie: SlayerSBoxeR, oGsNada, Painuser, TSL_Rain and old Jinro styles. I mean Tester and MC have beaten those styles but they are the best and eventually I'm sure someone can work it out. So that Terran is the Mechanized Terror it was like in BW and not just a bunch of Marauders. I also enjoy the Banshee play that was popular in beta and is really standing out again.
On December 19 2010 02:05 Vega62a wrote: Did you see PainUser vs WhiteRa in the Root gaming qfs game 1? Actually, just PainIUser in general. He started losing when he stopped using his mech build.
For the love of god. Can we please stop referencing just one game to prove a point? One game is useless to prove consistency. Honestly I do not keep up with painuser, like ever, but if I could get like, 5 references for games (don't even have to be links, just enough info to search up the game on youtube or whatever), that would be great. (And yes, I looked up a couple painuser replays, but the first 2 I saw he did not use mech so I just stopped looking because I shouldn't have to back your stuff up for you)
Different game bra, same player (painuser). It's obvious you aren't reading posts at this point, and the thread has derailed anyway.
On December 20 2010 04:31 vnlegend wrote: Alright after switching to P for a while I can see that P is definitely imba. It's not as much as I thought, but it's still decently ahead.
I've been in the 2400's as T for a while, unable to improve.
As P I won about half of the 12-15 games that I played on the 2400s ladder w/o knowing any build orders, timings, or having played any P 1v1 games in several months. I can see myself easily advancing to 2600+ in a few weeks as Protoss once I learn the build orders and have more experience dealing with T's attacks.
Strategically, P has the advantage and it feels like the Terran has to seriously outplay P in order to win. For Terran, that means better micro and multi-tasking. Basically, given equal strategic/mechanical skill, a player will probably end up 200+ pts higher on the ladder as P compared to playing T. Having PvZ as almost near free wins also helps.
Please don't make such claims without proof, it's pointless and annoying.
On December 20 2010 04:31 vnlegend wrote: Alright after switching to P for a while I can see that P is definitely imba. It's not as much as I thought, but it's still decently ahead.
I've been in the 2400's as T for a while, unable to improve.
As P I won about half of the 12-15 games that I played on the 2400s ladder w/o knowing any build orders, timings, or having played any P 1v1 games in several months. I can see myself easily advancing to 2600+ in a few weeks as Protoss once I learn the build orders and have more experience dealing with T's attacks.
Strategically, P has the advantage and it feels like the Terran has to seriously outplay P in order to win. For Terran, that means better micro and multi-tasking. Basically, given equal strategic/mechanical skill, a player will probably end up 200+ pts higher on the ladder as P compared to playing T. Having PvZ as almost near free wins also helps.
you sure? PvZ is not free win at all, I have to fight for a win every single PvZ. Unless you 5 gate all in every match. But I still think u will not win against a Z who can defend it well.
Terran is better in small numbers, while protoss is stronger when they have the right units mix. I dont see how anybody can defeat an army of high templar, collosus, stalkers, sentries and chargelots in a head on battle.
Terran is efficient in small numbers, 1/2 dropships worth of drops is so devastating. If you wan to be strong in small numbers and prevent the building up of forces by protoss, then play terran. If you think you are more defensive then I suggest you play protoss. I believe the match up is pretty balance.
Terran cannot expect to win if they sit back and build their 200/200 army. This is just the nature of the game. Protoss can definitely expect to win if they have their 200/200 army, cause is so freaking hard to do it as protoss. Losing 1 or 2 key units in the 200/200 army is very crucial to protoss as well.
You might argue is easy to defend instead of attacking, but I am sure at some point of the game. terran always will have the chance to crush protoss, is just whether they know the time to do it.
On December 20 2010 04:59 positron. wrote: I think bio with heavy air support might be a potential solution. Banshees and vikings are very mobile and counter everything that come out of the robo. You should ideally have more banshees than vikings and make sure to research cloak to get rid of the energy or be quick enough to snipe obs and then cloak. This strat still has many holes like feedback and phoenix but at least you have a chance to outmicro the Protoss. Maybe add thors to deal with the phoenix? I know this is really gas intensive so I guess the ground army will be mostly marines.
On the side note: ppl who say t3 P should rape bio and Terran don't use high tech enough are all idiots and should stop posting all together. High tech units of Terran don't deal AoE and Terran don't have that imba spell of ffs to protect high tech units while they dish out their insane damage. While ffs is necessary for P in the early game they are really imba later on.
I already posted about how much success I have had with heavy starport play between the 2K-2.5K diamond range. I am not good but better players can try this stuff out and see if it works (FYI I have seen Trump do some very similar stuff on his stream and kill 2.5k-3k diamond toss players with it). High tech terran units suck at AOE but toss anti-air is very un-inspiring and a late game fleet of viking, banshee, raven and BCs is very strong. 4+base sky terran rolls over anything that is not storm+carrier so hard. I rarely drop games in TvP that go beyond 3 or more bases and even then its because of some obvious error on my part.
TLDR version: Bio and mech are garbage against toss late game (all those tosses talking about using siege tanks don't know wtf they are talking about). Go starport heavy late game, realy heavy. Don't bother with anything else after 2 or more bases. You will be really successful esp. against colossus, which are best dealt with by completely diminishing their role in the match-up.
On December 20 2010 04:31 vnlegend wrote: Alright after switching to P for a while I can see that P is definitely imba. It's not as much as I thought, but it's still decently ahead.
I've been in the 2400's as T for a while, unable to improve.
As P I won about half of the 12-15 games that I played on the 2400s ladder w/o knowing any build orders, timings, or having played any P 1v1 games in several months. I can see myself easily advancing to 2600+ in a few weeks as Protoss once I learn the build orders and have more experience dealing with T's attacks.
Strategically, P has the advantage and it feels like the Terran has to seriously outplay P in order to win. For Terran, that means better micro and multi-tasking. Basically, given equal strategic/mechanical skill, a player will probably end up 200+ pts higher on the ladder as P compared to playing T. Having PvZ as almost near free wins also helps.
you sure? PvZ is not free win at all, I have to fight for a win every single PvZ. Unless you 5 gate all in every match. But I still think u will not win against a Z who can defend it well.
Terran is better in small numbers, while protoss is stronger when they have the right units mix. I dont see how anybody can defeat an army of high templar, collosus, stalkers, sentries and chargelots in a head on battle.
Terran is efficient in small numbers, 1/2 dropships worth of drops is so devastating. If you wan to be strong in small numbers and prevent the building up of forces by protoss, then play terran. If you think you are more defensive then I suggest you play protoss. I believe the match up is pretty balance.
Terran cannot expect to win if they sit back and build their 200/200 army. This is just the nature of the game. Protoss can definitely expect to win if they have their 200/200 army, cause is so freaking hard to do it as protoss. Losing 1 or 2 key units in the 200/200 army is very crucial to protoss as well.
You might argue is easy to defend instead of attacking, but I am sure at some point of the game. terran always will have the chance to crush protoss, is just whether they know the time to do it.
QFT
Terran is basically very strong early game when stim+medivac just come out and toss doesn't have too much aoe yet. Mid game and late game harass heavy due to in small numbers with medivac terran units are very strong against small amount of toss units
If people expect late game to be just 2 big army attacking each other, then play toss if you are a harass friendly+fast expo player then use terran.
Seriously some things like Khaydarin Amulet might seem OP but they clearly are not as yeah toss is destroying in the lower levels but higher levels craps relatively even.
this is completely garbage reasoning. the win rates of terrans in tvps that end before the 10 or 12 minute mark is very high while the winrate of toss in tvps that go beyond that is very high. so basically high lvl tvp is very imbalanced most of the time, its just that both imbas statistically cancel each other out to a certain degree.
the problem with this kind of balance is that the terran wins by timing pushes and early pressure are gimmicky and will lose effectiveness once figured out. on the other hand, until there is a serious revolution of lategame tvp play, there is no hope of lategame tvp winrates improving substantially. so we can assume by default that the matchup is going to shift towards P more and more until such a revolution takes place. the stats only seem somewhat balanced on high lvl atm because the tosses still need time to figure out all the gimmicky bullshit we terrans can throw at them. but there is almost no doubt that they will eventually figure it out.
another problem is that players like mc show how the concept of "early game T > P" might not be as set in stone as we think. even the general army advantage we got going for us during the early game might be breaking away. then there is nothing left besides very specific all-ins or timing pushes.
this is not good balance and it wont remain statistically balanced for much longer unless there is serious change in the metagame. it is very frustrating to come to a thread like this as a lowish player in hope of some crafty advise for dealing with the problems we got with lategame tvp, just to hear pros like jinro or trump or others tell us that there is strategically not much we could do better, that they are about as perplexed with the situation as we low folks are.
The TvP has been evolving quite a bit since the start I think.
Initially you get all the complaints about the Marauders, but Protoss players learned how to use the sentry, and manage to adapt, and then it's the Terran's turn complain hugely about the Colossus.
It seems that just as Terrans come up with decent unit mixes (banshees+raven+marine/ vikings+MMM) to use vs. Colossus builds, Protoss players start using the Templar.
Unfortunately, while Colossus already had some obvious hard counters (banshee/vikings) and not-so-obvious soft counters (thors), Templars seem to be a different matter.
I hold some hope that Terrans are innovative enough to find a way to deal with a heavy Stalker + Templar combination since that's really the main problem, everything that would technically counter Templars (Hellions, ?Reapers?, Thors) have problems facing the Stalker bodyguards.
Don't think the answer will come anytime soon though. The way Jinro and Rain lost to MC makes me extremely depressed at the state of TvP currently.
On December 13 2010 23:09 Nakama wrote: Im a 2300 Diamond T and my main Problem in Tvp is the Zealot.I would say that i play a macro oriented style and i often try to get my 3 up as soon as possible normaly it works good 4me( i open with 1/1/1 sjow style) In the beginning the zelot isnt a big Problem, u can kite it easily and a few tanks shut down most agresion toss can throw at u in the early stages of the game. However when the game last longer i simply die to mass zealot. When both have their 3 up it becomes rly hard 4 me tp spend my mins in time and i often end up having 1000 overmins and 0 gas. Marines just die to collosi or ht in this stage of the game and arent cost effective if u dont mangae to kill all high tier units at the beginning of the fight. The toss however can mass whatever high tech unit he wants and spend his overmins very easily into mass zealot, which once they have legs are the best dps u can get in my opinion. So while im having trouble to counter ht or colossi and spend most my resources into ghosts or vikings, my bioball jsut dies to spammed zealots. The only asnwer i can think of are upgraded Hellions, but they didnt work well 4 me the times i tried them. I only win these kind of games if the toss decides to attack me and i win the fight. If he decides to play defensivly i jsut dont stand a chance, every drop just gets shut down casue he can wrap in 5 lots/hts and defend it till reinforcments arrive-
Tl;dr: Zealots are a way to good mineral dump + the overhelming strengh of high tier toss units makes it nearly impossible 4 me to kill defensive toss palyers Conclusion: Kill him in 15 min or die
Get a few Thors, and some banshees. Then scan once and watch the fireworks.
Seriously, watch painuser own face, that guy's lategame is amazing... The only way that comp gets beaten is if the opponent has as many HT's as you do banshees! (and gets off a feedback on every single one before you cloak)
Of course you need the obligatory smattering of rax units....
On December 20 2010 04:59 positron. wrote: I think bio with heavy air support might be a potential solution. Banshees and vikings are very mobile and counter everything that come out of the robo. You should ideally have more banshees than vikings and make sure to research cloak to get rid of the energy or be quick enough to snipe obs and then cloak. This strat still has many holes like feedback and phoenix but at least you have a chance to outmicro the Protoss. Maybe add thors to deal with the phoenix? I know this is really gas intensive so I guess the ground army will be mostly marines.
On the side note: ppl who say t3 P should rape bio and Terran don't use high tech enough are all idiots and should stop posting all together. High tech units of Terran don't deal AoE and Terran don't have that imba spell of ffs to protect high tech units while they dish out their insane damage. While ffs is necessary for P in the early game they are really imba later on.
I already posted about how much success I have had with heavy starport play between the 2K-2.5K diamond range. I am not good but better players can try this stuff out and see if it works (FYI I have seen Trump do some very similar stuff on his stream and kill 2.5k-3k diamond toss players with it). High tech terran units suck at AOE but toss anti-air is very un-inspiring and a late game fleet of viking, banshee, raven and BCs is very strong. 4+base sky terran rolls over anything that is not storm+carrier so hard. I rarely drop games in TvP that go beyond 3 or more bases and even then its because of some obvious error on my part.
TLDR version: Bio and mech are garbage against toss late game (all those tosses talking about using siege tanks don't know wtf they are talking about). Go starport heavy late game, realy heavy. Don't bother with anything else after 2 or more bases. You will be really successful esp. against colossus, which are best dealt with by completely diminishing their role in the match-up.
Yeah I'm as perplexed as you are why there are so few pros doing the Terran airforce lategame. In BW its the mech army that has the best synergy (complements each others strengths and canceling each other's weaknesses, while sharing the same upgrades and production structure).
In SC2 its the airforce that has the best synergy, especially if you transition into it from MM (raven viking banshee medivac). I wonder who will be the One who will show the masses how OP terran air is, considering you don't have to rush to get them because of strong MM.
Are there any replays/streams showing Master level airplay? I'd like to see those. :D
I think the main issue with going Air is getting it up and running. P can plop down a Stargate the instant the Cybernetics Core is finished and then Chronoboost out the first few units. T has to build a Factory first (which unlike a Cybernetics Core indicates a major tech path) then get the Starport and can only build Vikings and Medivacs until a Tech Lab is added. T also lacks an all-purpose Air unit before the BC, meaning you'd have to split between Banshees and Vikings.
Once up and running I can imagine a huge Air deathball vaporizing everything, but getting that deathball is going to be insanely hard.
As for early advantages, T has to make a big commitment to make use of that advantage by going Bio. If the Bio doesn't do enough damage, P techs up and kills it.
this shows how underdeveloped protoss builds and unit mixes earlier were, not so long ago forums were flooded with countless topics of P players unable to beat terran despite of blizzard statistics showing that infact they have better winrate in that matchup (korea with highest % difference shows that other realms just started to catch up), the whine resulted in buffing protoss and terran nerf (still in progress) while the current state of pvt looks totally different compered to 1 month ago.
On December 20 2010 21:22 Thezzy wrote: I think the main issue with going Air is getting it up and running. P can plop down a Stargate the instant the Cybernetics Core is finished and then Chronoboost out the first few units. T has to build a Factory first (which unlike a Cybernetics Core indicates a major tech path) then get the Starport and can only build Vikings and Medivacs until a Tech Lab is added. T also lacks an all-purpose Air unit before the BC, meaning you'd have to split between Banshees and Vikings.
Once up and running I can imagine a huge Air deathball vaporizing everything, but getting that deathball is going to be insanely hard.
As for early advantages, T has to make a big commitment to make use of that advantage by going Bio. If the Bio doesn't do enough damage, P techs up and kills it.
But how often do you see a stargate right after the cyber most toss will go for the observer meaning they opt to get the robo instead.
Also to get a stargate toss need the gateway then the core than they can choose the robo and/or the stargate. Choosing both before your natural finish limits your gateway army. Choosing the stargate first puts you at a potential risk to banshee play. Ideally you would want to produce out of all your production buildings so going both just to get an observer seems rather 1 dementional. Also for terrans to get a starport for air they require a barracks than a factory than a starport. (still 3 buildings). Even if a toss scouts an early second gas from you they don't know if the factory they see (assuming the scouting probe sees it which is often not the case) is for mech play or air play until they get a scout in the base or put enough presure on the front to force the other units to help the mass marine that will inevitably be there due to the fact that the terran is teching.
You say this is pretty one dementional. However, opening for air denies you access to 3 units as your tech labs can be built on the rax or factory in advance. You are denied immediate access to the thor, the ghost, and the battlecruiser. And even so 1 of these units are easily accessed with most follow ups. As the game progresses regardless of your composition you want an armory for upgrades thus the thor is easily reached almost immediately afterward.
For protoss lets say you opt for getting both the robo and the stargate after your core. Units denied to you. Collosus mothership, and carrier. In addition off one base chances are both will not be able to produce constantly unless you go only zealot. Which means whatever you built out of your stargate will be your only antiair.
On December 20 2010 22:34 cilinder007 wrote: the matchup is still not fugured out completly, give is some more time before sayng whats op and whats not
It is figured out well enough to make the following statements:
- terran bio is overpowered early - terran bio is underpowered late - terran can not transition out of bio - everything that is not bio is not viable due to easily available protoss hard counters
Conclusion: win early or die.
I'd say that's a pretty good indication of a fucked up match-up.
The way I see it (from my lowly experience) is that in midgame, Toss makes the decision of whether to go for HTs or for Collossi. I want to compare the advantages and disadvantages of both:
HT +: Warp-able Easy, relatively cheap AOE on demand Can make Archons Decimate bioballs Feedback is good
HT -: Squishy EMP-able Slow and unmaneuverable in a battle. Storm is lackluster vs Mech (or anything with more than 80hp)
Colossi +: Stacking, increasing damage output with higher numbers Great range Good maneuverability in battle.
Colossi -: Build time Mineral/gas/food cost Snipe-able by air
----------
Now that that's done, realize 2 things: the damage collossi deal increases with the number of Colossi. They can deal more damage in a single instance over an increasing AOE as more Colossi get a better arc.
Storm suffers from the distinct problem that it's an AoE DOT. As great as it is, any single storm will never do anywhere close to full 80 damage against a unit that can micro, and the MOST damage you can deal in 4 seconds is 80. 3 Colossi without upgrades deal more damage than a single storm instantly, albeit in a smaller area, and there's no way to dodge those beams when they go down. Storm can cover a greater area because you can thrown down several of them, but the only thing storms are REALLY good at killing is bio, they are really pretty crappy against mech (tanks will outrange HTs, Thors have the HP to not care about storms, Hellions are too fast to care.)
Basically, what I want to say to Terrans who are struggling with Storms is to start incorporating mech when they see the Templar Archives go down. Chances are, the P is investing so much into HTs at that point that they can't get any reliably scary production of immortals from the robo, and the one thing I HATE playing against the most is a mech-heavy Terran player when all I have is gateway units and HTs. That's mainly because Storm just doesn't cut it vs mech. Take advantage of that, get a few Thors in the mix, and have a few tanks back up your bio force, you should be able to win a lot of battles before P transitions to Colossi/more robo tech.
On December 20 2010 22:34 cilinder007 wrote: the matchup is still not fugured out completly, give is some more time before sayng whats op and whats not
It is figured out well enough to make the following statements:
- terran bio is overpowered early - terran bio is underpowered late - terran can not transition out of bio - everything that is not bio is not viable due to easily available protoss hard counters
Conclusion: win early or die.
I'd say that's a pretty good indication of a fucked up match-up.
Terran can transition halfway out of bio :D, get biomech or airbio. I think more time should be given to the Masters to figure out how to optimise Terran builds. (Had my eye on airbuild) Wait for GSL 2011 S class, and hope for the Boxer/Flash of SC2 to emerge.
Anyway, I'm just going to make a statement that air is gonna be the new mech, albeit with several twists thrown in. I'll even wager it XD.
On December 20 2010 22:34 cilinder007 wrote: the matchup is still not fugured out completly, give is some more time before sayng whats op and whats not
It is figured out well enough to make the following statements:
- terran bio is overpowered early - terran bio is underpowered late - terran can not transition out of bio - everything that is not bio is not viable due to easily available protoss hard counters
Conclusion: win early or die.
I'd say that's a pretty good indication of a fucked up match-up.
MC has been beating terrans in the early game and Jinro has been beating protosses late game. New strategies are being developed all the time so nothing has been figured out...
On December 20 2010 22:34 cilinder007 wrote: the matchup is still not fugured out completly, give is some more time before sayng whats op and whats not
It is figured out well enough to make the following statements:
- terran bio is overpowered early - terran bio is underpowered late - terran can not transition out of bio - everything that is not bio is not viable due to easily available protoss hard counters
Conclusion: win early or die.
I'd say that's a pretty good indication of a fucked up match-up.
MC has been beating terrans in the early game and Jinro has been beating protosses late game. New strategies are being developed all the time so nothing has been figured out...
On December 20 2010 21:52 derppp wrote: this shows how underdeveloped protoss builds and unit mixes earlier were, not so long ago forums were flooded with countless topics of P players unable to beat terran despite of blizzard statistics showing that infact they have better winrate in that matchup (korea with highest % difference shows that other realms just started to catch up), the whine resulted in buffing protoss and terran nerf (still in progress) while the current state of pvt looks totally different compered to 1 month ago.
This is total nonsense.
Nothing has changed at all apart from the fact that P players simply got better at defending the 50 billion cheeses T can use to beat a P early/mid game before Colossai/Templar tech.
Overtime P players in general just got better at FFing, which is a critical component to winning as P. Your early/mid game hinges on your ability to FF well, if you can't you will lose basically 99.9% of your fights.
Not to mention that Tanks/Medivacs got nerfed, along with Nexus buffs which hugely improved the ability for P to move out, as no longer could Tank lines wipe out Zeals instantly, and Mauraders couldn't snipe your Nexus in under a second.
On December 20 2010 22:34 cilinder007 wrote: the matchup is still not fugured out completly, give is some more time before sayng whats op and whats not
It is figured out well enough to make the following statements:
- terran bio is overpowered early - terran bio is underpowered late - terran can not transition out of bio - everything that is not bio is not viable due to easily available protoss hard counters
Conclusion: win early or die.
I'd say that's a pretty good indication of a fucked up match-up.
You do understand that it's the protoss player that has to react to nearly everything terran does or lose, right? Needing to tech storm to handle bio and the "easily available hard counter" to whatever else you do isn't exactly easy.
Terran players need more ghost and ghost tech (like cloak) and more PDD use.
How is this awful thread not locked already? WHen it was made last week it started going good with jinro chiming in and everyone ignoring his comments. Now I look in the original post and he quotes some guy saying his dog could win with storm warp ins? There is nothing useful here anymore. If you guys would rather complain than come up with solutions or share ideas about how to work around this difficult matchups you should take it to the battlenet forums. I would challenge anyone here to offrace the other half of the matchup and get their highest rating possible since its soooooo easy.
My personal opinion is that the average player is lost in this matchup. The average protoss knows that the average terran will struggle with protoss AoE and so he generally goes for it. The average terran knows he needs a strong and clever early game to try to get an advantage headed into the midgame. I think the tools are there for either race to win at any stage of the game. I really think most of the people on this thread, myself included, doesn't macro perfectly enough to really even complain about balance. I guarantee there are several factors beyond just storm and collossuss that is making you lose to some protoss players, not the least of which is just a disparity in skill. Did anyone feel TSL_Rain SHOULD have had a chance against oGsMC? MC is just a superior player, no unit combinations or tech is going to change that. He has better macro, better micro, and better decision making. This is what wins games.
On December 21 2010 06:09 Jayrod wrote: How is this awful thread not locked already? WHen it was made last week it started going good with jinro chiming in and everyone ignoring his comments. Now I look in the original post and he quotes some guy saying his dog could win with storm warp ins? There is nothing useful here anymore. If you guys would rather complain than come up with solutions or share ideas about how to work around this difficult matchups you should take it to the battlenet forums. I would challenge anyone here to offrace the other half of the matchup and get their highest rating possible since its soooooo easy.
My personal opinion is that the average player is lost in this matchup. The average protoss knows that the average terran will struggle with protoss AoE and so he generally goes for it. The average terran knows he needs a strong and clever early game to try to get an advantage headed into the midgame. I think the tools are there for either race to win at any stage of the game. I really think most of the people on this thread, myself included, doesn't macro perfectly enough to really even complain about balance. I guarantee there are several factors beyond just storm and collossuss that is making you lose to some protoss players, not the least of which is just a disparity in skill. Did anyone feel TSL_Rain SHOULD have had a chance against oGsMC? MC is just a superior player, no unit combinations or tech is going to change that. He has better macro, better micro, and better decision making. This is what wins games.
If anyone has been watching Painusers stream (currently on and has been for many hours) he has lost a huge amount of games to protoss, and despite being different guys, the matches always play out the same.
When Painuser FE's, he dies to a timing attack. Not even an all-in or cheese, but a standard, protoss expand-timing with collosus or whichever tech path they chose. Painuser is constantly broke on cash, despite having the FE up, he is forced to spend money on tech to make his bio effective, but at the cost of not having enough units itself to deal with a timing.
The games where Painuser survives to late game, which to his credit is many, he is just being utterly rolled, while playing outstandingly well. So many times he was at max food with 5 bases, yet even with vikings and ghosts, the collosus and high templars do do much frontload instant damage that half his army crumbles immediately.
On December 21 2010 06:09 Jayrod wrote: How is this awful thread not locked already? WHen it was made last week it started going good with jinro chiming in and everyone ignoring his comments. Now I look in the original post and he quotes some guy saying his dog could win with storm warp ins? There is nothing useful here anymore. If you guys would rather complain than come up with solutions or share ideas about how to work around this difficult matchups you should take it to the battlenet forums. I would challenge anyone here to offrace the other half of the matchup and get their highest rating possible since its soooooo easy.
My personal opinion is that the average player is lost in this matchup. The average protoss knows that the average terran will struggle with protoss AoE and so he generally goes for it. The average terran knows he needs a strong and clever early game to try to get an advantage headed into the midgame. I think the tools are there for either race to win at any stage of the game. I really think most of the people on this thread, myself included, doesn't macro perfectly enough to really even complain about balance. I guarantee there are several factors beyond just storm and collossuss that is making you lose to some protoss players, not the least of which is just a disparity in skill. Did anyone feel TSL_Rain SHOULD have had a chance against oGsMC? MC is just a superior player, no unit combinations or tech is going to change that. He has better macro, better micro, and better decision making. This is what wins games.
The guy bragging about his dog's MAD sc2 skiLLz is actually quoted because he is good at sc2. (not the dog, the guy)
The thread is not closed because we still discuss the matchup. Do you think you have figured it out? Stating obvious stuff like "the better players wins" doesn't add any value.
I agree about average players not being able to counter the AoE tech protoss has lategame. Good TvP players micro ghosts like gods and claim the FF is OP. Most averge players fail when their bio ball evaporates because the protoss player pressed T and clicked.
For players of similar skill who are below 2500 the matchup is trouble because its ridiculously easy to a-move a stimmed bioball earlygame or to storm that bioball lategame. That applies to 99,9% of all sc2 players. THAT is why this matchup needs fixing.
(And thats why we T are so angry. Not having a late game to look forward to in TvP is really boring.)
On December 21 2010 07:29 aloT wrote: If anyone has been watching Painusers stream (currently on and has been for many hours) he has lost a huge amount of games to protoss, and despite being different guys, the matches always play out the same.
When Painuser FE's, he dies to a timing attack. Not even an all-in or cheese, but a standard, protoss expand-timing with collosus or whichever tech path they chose. Painuser is constantly broke on cash, despite having the FE up, he is forced to spend money on tech to make his bio effective, but at the cost of not having enough units itself to deal with a timing.
The games where Painuser survives to late game, which to his credit is many, he is just being utterly rolled, while playing outstandingly well. So many times he was at max food with 5 bases, yet even with vikings and ghosts, the collosus and high templars do do much frontload instant damage that half his army crumbles immediately.
Painuser is a hero. He refuses the cheap cheezy wins.
I am definitely finding PvT to be a bit of a breeze right now. I have several builds I use all to great success, mostly about surviving early game or applying pressure (voids, DTs) or defeating timing attacks to get colossus and HT out and into the late game. From there, its a-move and storm, collect win.
However, I have noticed almost all my T opponents have stopped using drops... before 1.1.2 I had nightmares about my templar archives being marauder stim dropped when storm was 3/4ths done, probes dieing to marines, having to dart all over the map to just stay alive, and eventually crumble as my rag-tag army of a few colossi and maybe 1 HT without storm dies to mmm with a 40 or so supply advantage. Was the medivac speed nerf really that massive? Even in GSL 3, hardly any drops are done in PvT anymore. Perhaps the nerf was too much? I reckon medivacs kept mmm a midgame force to be reckoned with pre-1.1.2.
On December 13 2010 23:04 dbkim92 wrote: Well, as a T-user, in a TvP what's foremost on my mind is constantly dropping to pick off tech to abuse the immobility of a toss that goes collosus. At some stage in the game you know the time you will need to add vikings and later ghosts. Then you constantly have to be trying to catch their army in an advantageous position for you such that forcefields are somewhat mitigated. I really dont know wat more to say=\ the replays also show only one aspect of the matchup with a favorable result for P.
And as for the viability of mech, well, i guess Thors can b sprinkled in and a couple of tanks. But ive never seen a heavy tank composition beat toss.
Basically, storm is a scary spell, so try to win before that(Y)
What kind of harass are you doing that can't be responded with a few stalkers being warped in near by? Toss is extremely mobile collo are not very slow and they can walk up terrain Im not sure what you mean by "immobile" Whats so Immobile about warping in a small force of units where they are needed to deal with a "drop" etc?
On December 21 2010 07:47 LtLolburger wrote: Just to add my $0.02 as a lowly 1400 protoss...
I am definitely finding PvT to be a bit of a breeze right now. I have several builds I use all to great success, mostly about surviving early game or applying pressure (voids, DTs) or defeating timing attacks to get colossus and HT out and into the late game. From there, its a-move and storm, collect win.
However, I have noticed almost all my T opponents have stopped using drops... before 1.1.2 I had nightmares about my templar archives being marauder stim dropped when storm was 3/4ths done, probes dieing to marines, having to dart all over the map to just stay alive, and eventually crumble as my rag-tag army of a few colossi and maybe 1 HT without storm dies to mmm with a 40 or so supply advantage. Was the medivac speed nerf really that massive? Even in GSL 3, hardly any drops are done in PvT anymore. Perhaps the nerf was too much? I reckon medivacs kept mmm a midgame force to be reckoned with pre-1.1.2.
Everytime i drop i get feedbacked/ Stormed and my Dropship dies.
Step 1) Spot Step 2) warp in HTs Step 3) Feedback
Edit: Drop ships are also slow enough to get stormed
On December 21 2010 07:49 Meldrath wrote: What kind of harass are you doing that can't be responded with a few stalkers being warped in near by? Toss is extremely mobile collo are not very slow and they can walk up terrain Im not sure what you mean by "immobile" Whats so Immobile about warping in a small force of units where they are needed to deal with a "drop" etc?
A medivac full of bio can pretty easily kill off one round of 4-6 gate warp ins, if you're doing it before amulet tech. Drops work! It's annoying.
And if you're smart and know they have feedback lined up, send in one of your newer dropships with less energy.
A medivac full of bio can pretty easily kill off one round of 4-6 gate warp ins, if you're doing it before amulet tech. Drops work! It's annoying.
4 Marauders and Medivac should do pretty well against 4-6 Zealots or Stalkers (depending on upgrades and such) that are warped in after the drop lands. Especially if they're warped in within range of the terran units.
However, the same handful of zealots and Stalkers cleans up the drop handily if they've responded BEFORE the medivac unloads.
Today I experienced a fast ghost build timing push. althought the BO was quite messy, it seemed to be it was quite imbalanced : EMP the sentryball, then you have the stimmed marines and maraudeur that kill every thing, kiting zealot with the help of maraudeur's concusive shell, also you take 10 scvs from your main to help. At the begining of the fight, after emp and stiming, build 2 bunker (just in case)
Protoss can't forcefield ramp with help of emp so he won't be able to make templar / colossus.
I don't really see any Protoss BO counter this on small maps.
For me, stimpack timing push with scv is incredibly strong. I think stimpack should be a T2 technology BUT nerf psionic storm dommage and make it cost 50 instead of 75 would be a good deal to balance.
But I have to agree that Late game REALLY suck for terran, now I will veto shakura map which really sucks for terran.
On December 13 2010 23:09 Nakama wrote: Im a 2300 Diamond T and my main Problem in Tvp is the Zealot.I would say that i play a macro oriented style and i often try to get my 3 up as soon as possible normaly it works good 4me( i open with 1/1/1 sjow style) In the beginning the zelot isnt a big Problem, u can kite it easily and a few tanks shut down most agresion toss can throw at u in the early stages of the game. However when the game last longer i simply die to mass zealot. When both have their 3 up it becomes rly hard 4 me tp spend my mins in time and i often end up having 1000 overmins and 0 gas. Marines just die to collosi or ht in this stage of the game and arent cost effective if u dont mangae to kill all high tier units at the beginning of the fight. The toss however can mass whatever high tech unit he wants and spend his overmins very easily into mass zealot, which once they have legs are the best dps u can get in my opinion. So while im having trouble to counter ht or colossi and spend most my resources into ghosts or vikings, my bioball jsut dies to spammed zealots. The only asnwer i can think of are upgraded Hellions, but they didnt work well 4 me the times i tried them. I only win these kind of games if the toss decides to attack me and i win the fight. If he decides to play defensivly i jsut dont stand a chance, every drop just gets shut down casue he can wrap in 5 lots/hts and defend it till reinforcments arrive-
Tl;dr: Zealots are a way to good mineral dump + the overhelming strengh of high tier toss units makes it nearly impossible 4 me to kill defensive toss palyers Conclusion: Kill him in 15 min or die
Have to disagree. Think you just need to play a little more xD zealots are not the answer, especially late gate. T bio is generally all around greater than gateway units. Go ahead, mention sentries, but dare I bring up how good Ghosts are? Maybe you should start using ghosts, zealots will melt and your cheap marine/rauder army will walk over anything.
Zealots may end up dieing but its a mineral dump for the toss and chargelots that manage a surround pin your army for warped in templar or collosus to do the real damage.
I think the reason why protoss players finds PvT to be diificult is because they are comparing the PvT matchup to PvZ. PvZ is just a skewed matchup in which tosses has so many options, and ultimately just need to turtle till they can just a-move their colossi stalker armies and crush zerg unless Z plays prefectly, or go for easy early game wins off one base. In PvT, however, Terran can actually fight back, and Toss has to, to an extent, earn the win. The cruise-control victories that are so easily achieved against zerg cannot be replicated against terran, so protoss complains that T is too strong. From what I can see, it is Terran who are at a disadvantage in this matchup, since toss can just stay alive for 10 minutes and then have a massive tech advantage in the form of storms. The fact that Toss complains about T early game is non-sensical, especially given how many stupid allins and ridiculous lategame composition toss has against zerg
On December 21 2010 13:18 5unrise wrote: I think the reason why protoss players finds PvT to be diificult is because they are comparing the PvT matchup to PvZ. PvZ is just a skewed matchup in which tosses has so many options, and ultimately just need to turtle till they can just a-move their colossi stalker armies and crush zerg unless Z plays prefectly, or go for easy early game wins off one base. In PvT, however, Terran can actually fight back, and Toss has to, to an extent, earn the win. The cruise-control victories that are so easily achieved against zerg cannot be replicated against terran, so protoss complains that T is too strong. From what I can see, it is Terran who are at a disadvantage in this matchup, since toss can just stay alive for 10 minutes and then have a massive tech advantage in the form of storms. The fact that Toss complains about T early game is non-sensical, especially given how many stupid allins and ridiculous lategame composition toss has against zerg
In my experiance as a Terran player is that I need to play much metter than my opponent or else I get owned. In a toe to toe battle MMM gets raped hard by storm, and unless I can get perfect EMPs to limit my opponents Storms to less than four (will explain that number in a bit), my marines just die, and chareglots clean up my weakend marauders. And then even if I play perfect I can't counter attack, especially on maps like Shakuras where my opponent's natural is up a narrow ramp, where newly warped in Templar storm the living crap out of my already twice stimmed army. All in all I need a significant advantage to take my opponent's army in the field, and an even larger one to tank the damage I take storming his natural (Pun not intended).
Lets compare Storm to EMP. EMP negates Templar and sentries, and will reduce the health of Protoss units by between a third an a half. For Zealots and stalkers who will be your main targets for most EMPs targeting non energy units, that leaves them with 100 or 80 health left. Storm on the other hand, does 25 damage a second to all units standing in that AOE for 4 seconds. The best a Terran can hope for if his army is stormed, is to take only 25 damage. To Stimmed Marines that is 50% of there health. To stimmed marauders it is a quarter. Medivac's take 1/6th of their total life. The key number here is the marine health. Marines represent the bulk of Terran DPS, you can basically assume that a Terran will lose half his effective strength if you can kill them all. So if you storm, and the Terran's marines take 25 damage, and then you storm the again then they die. If you can get four storms off, you can cover most of the ball that is the Terran army for two seconds. This kills the marines, does half the damage required to kill the maruders, and does a third of the damage needed to kill medivacs. If the Terran can get a larger concave, or has a much larger ball, you might need a couple more storms, but as a general rule four storms can cover the bulk of a Terran army. EMP on the other hand, while it negates the damages done by High Templar and Sentries, does between half and a third of the damage needed to kill stalkers and zealots. So if I can get four EMPs, then my opponent's army is still at full DPS, and I've probably hit about 80% of my opponents shields.
The problem ends up being that chargelot/High Templar works very well together for expense purposes, and is incredibly deadly. If I can't get off an EMP in time on the High Templar, then my army dies. If my opponent gets EMPed first, then his army still runs into mine with enough force to do serious damage. I have nightmares about a HT/Chargelot/Sentry force that FFs my army so that it can't retreat. I won't be able to go anywhere resembling narrow.
On December 21 2010 11:18 Tonyoh wrote: 'sup fellow terrans,
Today I experienced a fast ghost build timing push. althought the BO was quite messy, it seemed to be it was quite imbalanced : EMP the sentryball, then you have the stimmed marines and maraudeur that kill every thing, kiting zealot with the help of maraudeur's concusive shell, also you take 10 scvs from your main to help. At the begining of the fight, after emp and stiming, build 2 bunker (just in case)
Protoss can't forcefield ramp with help of emp so he won't be able to make templar / colossus.
I don't really see any Protoss BO counter this on small maps.
For me, stimpack timing push with scv is incredibly strong. I think stimpack should be a T2 technology BUT nerf psionic storm dommage and make it cost 50 instead of 75 would be a good deal to balance.
But I have to agree that Late game REALLY suck for terran, now I will veto shakura map which really sucks for terran.
I used to do this for some time until i hit a brick wall which simply was protoss figuring out that they shouldn't stack all sentries in one place. This build is essentially an allin as if you don't do sufficient damage with the 1 ghost/2 marauder/ dozen marine stim emp timing push, as you are too far behind in tech and eco to deal with any form of X gate/robo collossus play.
Same here, i used to do the 3rax stim + ghost timing push but as i went against stronger protoss players, it grew quite weak, ending with the protoss being able to defend the push while going 1gate FE.
Just forget it, its worthless against good players. (2500 T here)
I am protoss player and surely have a very very bad PvT ... but i dont find it normal to lose very often to high platin. or even lower category when playing friendly machtes. It doesnt happen in PvP and PvZ.
I find it pretty T side ... but don't know ... when u watch oGsMC everything seems so, well i won't say easy, but at least balanced.
how does what mc did seem balanced, he completly roflstomped his opponents, the only game he lost was not going robo vs cloacked banshee and he even almost still won that...looking at mc's games isnt realy where you can say look for balance
On December 21 2010 14:17 Icekommander wrote: In my experiance as a Terran player is that I need to play much metter than my opponent or else I get owned. In a toe to toe battle MMM gets raped hard by storm, and unless I can get perfect EMPs to limit my opponents Storms to less than four (will explain that number in a bit), my marines just die, and chareglots clean up my weakend marauders. And then even if I play perfect I can't counter attack, especially on maps like Shakuras where my opponent's natural is up a narrow ramp, where newly warped in Templar storm the living crap out of my already twice stimmed army. All in all I need a significant advantage to take my opponent's army in the field, and an even larger one to tank the damage I take storming his natural (Pun not intended).
Lets compare Storm to EMP. EMP negates Templar and sentries, and will reduce the health of Protoss units by between a third an a half. For Zealots and stalkers who will be your main targets for most EMPs targeting non energy units, that leaves them with 100 or 80 health left. Storm on the other hand, does 25 damage a second to all units standing in that AOE for 4 seconds. The best a Terran can hope for if his army is stormed, is to take only 25 damage. To Stimmed Marines that is 50% of there health. To stimmed marauders it is a quarter. Medivac's take 1/6th of their total life. The key number here is the marine health. Marines represent the bulk of Terran DPS, you can basically assume that a Terran will lose half his effective strength if you can kill them all. So if you storm, and the Terran's marines take 25 damage, and then you storm the again then they die. If you can get four storms off, you can cover most of the ball that is the Terran army for two seconds. This kills the marines, does half the damage required to kill the maruders, and does a third of the damage needed to kill medivacs. If the Terran can get a larger concave, or has a much larger ball, you might need a couple more storms, but as a general rule four storms can cover the bulk of a Terran army. EMP on the other hand, while it negates the damages done by High Templar and Sentries, does between half and a third of the damage needed to kill stalkers and zealots. So if I can get four EMPs, then my opponent's army is still at full DPS, and I've probably hit about 80% of my opponents shields.
The problem ends up being that chargelot/High Templar works very well together for expense purposes, and is incredibly deadly. If I can't get off an EMP in time on the High Templar, then my army dies. If my opponent gets EMPed first, then his army still runs into mine with enough force to do serious damage. I have nightmares about a HT/Chargelot/Sentry force that FFs my army so that it can't retreat. I won't be able to go anywhere resembling narrow.
The
Some huge factual errors on your part. Storm does 80 over 4 game seconds with half-second ticks of 10 damage. So not only will you only take 10 damage if your army is stimmed and moves out quickly, that's less than 20% of a Marine's HP when they have Combat Shields (which they should if Toss has Storm), which is then pretty easily healed by some Medivacs. EMP damage is instant upon impact and there's no way to quickly regen shields. Also EMP raidus is 33% bigger than Storm radius. If 4 Storms covers your entire bioball you may want to hotkey your army on >1 hotkey.
I'm not good enough to comment on the entire PvT dynamic and if it's balanced, but your fantasy situation is just that, completely untrue.
In 2000 level diamond? Yes, all the time. Moving a bio ball out to attack without Stim or Medivacs is often an ill advised blunder, though I appreciate the free kills. A handful of zealots can absorb a lot of damage while stalkers defeat kite strategies. And if the zealots close(think forcefield, bad micro), that army is dead.
On the other hand, I really fear Terran Stargate units - well micro'd vikings can shut down Collossi, raven PDD is amazing, and banshee cloak timings can catch me in a bad state also.
I think its pretty simple. The matchup is just flawed in Protoss' favor.
Take oGcMC for example. Lets say he is the best PvT player on the planet. He claims a 95% win percentage over all Terrans. This is the problem.
Look at other individuals who are the very best at their craft. Tiger Woods would never win anywhere close to 95% of his match play golf matches if playing against other pros. Michael Jordan would never win 95% of his 1 on 1's vs other pros. Loda in his prime from DotA would never win 95% of solo mids.
My point is, even tho MC is great and this is not intended to take anything away from him, but if someone is able to obtain a 95% win percentage over the other best players in the world, then the problem is with the underlying contest being significantly favored to that individuals way.
There is simply no way that the game can be considered balanced when one player is able to achieve a 95% win rate vs the other best players in the world. Tiger would have to have completely illegal clubs and magnetic golf balls attracted to the hole. Jordan would have to get four points a basket. Loda would have to get free treads to achieve 95% win rate.
The matchup is inherently flawed. All of our discussion won't achieve much unless we are talking about how to nerf protoss a bit or how to buff terran a bit to solve the problem. Changing up unit comps or build orders simply isnt the answer.
On December 22 2010 08:49 Effen wrote: I think its pretty simple. The matchup is just flawed in Protoss' favor.
Take oGcMC for example. Lets say he is the best PvT player on the planet. He claims a 95% win percentage over all Terrans. This is the problem.
Look at other individuals who are the very best at their craft. Tiger Woods would never win anywhere close to 95% of his match play golf matches if playing against other pros. Michael Jordan would never win 95% of his 1 on 1's vs other pros. Loda in his prime from DotA would never win 95% of solo mids.
My point is, even tho MC is great and this is not intended to take anything away from him, but if someone is able to obtain a 95% win percentage over the other best players in the world, then the problem is with the underlying contest being significantly favored to that individuals way.
There is simply no way that the game can be considered balanced when one player is able to achieve a 95% win rate vs the other best players in the world. Tiger would have to have completely illegal clubs and magnetic golf balls attracted to the hole. Jordan would have to get four points a basket. Loda would have to get free treads to achieve 95% win rate.
The matchup is inherently flawed. All of our discussion won't achieve much unless we are talking about how to nerf protoss a bit or how to buff terran a bit to solve the problem. Changing up unit comps or build orders simply isnt the answer.
Flash has a 87% winrate in BW. Yet SC1 is still considered very balanced. I'm confident MC's play style will get countered very soon.
I'd like to chime in on the issue of templar if I may (tactfully, and without whining or complaining).
I wouldn't mind all the complaints about how strong storm is if it weren't for the fact that there's an obscenely large timing window where I've spent all of my gas on templar instead of sentries, taken the time and resources to build the council and archives and even thrown down a few templar to start building energy, my storm upgrade is half done and my amulet hasn't even started, wherein if the terran pushes with pretty much anything I immediately lose, especially marines and marauders--the very thing I'm usually trying to kill by going templar, and boy is that ever fun. I seem to recall EG.iNcontroL alluding to this painful window on a SoTG recently, and I completely agree with everything he had to say on the matter. It's such a debilitating and terrifying timing chasm that I'd rather just do some retarded one-base strat like a 4-gate and save myself the pain, but it sure does make me die a little inside every time I feel compelled to do so, as it one-dimensionalizes my play faster than you can say ActionJesuz.
So in short, shrug, yeah, templar are good, but getting them going sucks, and it bothers me to see so many people saying that they're over powered or whatever when so many protoss players get crippled or straight up die in the midgame when they dare to try to tech to them. I might feel better about it if the map I was playing on was big enough to feel safe for a sufficient period of time, but when we're all playing on stupid maps like steppes of war I feel like it's almost too dangerous to be worth it at all, and that bothers me a lot; even metolopolis, which is a far cry better than stepps, is fairly small by broodwar standards, but I think I'll save my rant about shitty blizzard map design for another day.
A medivac full of bio can pretty easily kill off one round of 4-6 gate warp ins, if you're doing it before amulet tech. Drops work! It's annoying.
4 Marauders and Medivac should do pretty well against 4-6 Zealots or Stalkers (depending on upgrades and such) that are warped in after the drop lands. Especially if they're warped in within range of the terran units.
However, the same handful of zealots and Stalkers cleans up the drop handily if they've responded BEFORE the medivac unloads.
Lategame PvT is essentially a fight to see who gets the better positioning. Terran has no contest for better positioning in the early game due to how fast you can unlock siege, stim, drops, and harass units. Lategame protoss can actually match this with warp-in/warp prism play. See game 2 of the GSL 3 finals.
All MC did was respond and counter-harass with warp gate tech. The 5 collosi at the end were more or less completely irrelevant to the outcome of that game because of how good MC's harass was and how bad Rain's harass was. Rain was harassing at drop locations that toss couldn't have covered early/mid game and continued to do so for far too long.
On December 22 2010 08:49 Effen wrote: I think its pretty simple. The matchup is just flawed in Protoss' favor.
Take oGcMC for example. Lets say he is the best PvT player on the planet. He claims a 95% win percentage over all Terrans. This is the problem.
Look at other individuals who are the very best at their craft. Tiger Woods would never win anywhere close to 95% of his match play golf matches if playing against other pros. Michael Jordan would never win 95% of his 1 on 1's vs other pros. Loda in his prime from DotA would never win 95% of solo mids.
My point is, even tho MC is great and this is not intended to take anything away from him, but if someone is able to obtain a 95% win percentage over the other best players in the world, then the problem is with the underlying contest being significantly favored to that individuals way.
There is simply no way that the game can be considered balanced when one player is able to achieve a 95% win rate vs the other best players in the world. Tiger would have to have completely illegal clubs and magnetic golf balls attracted to the hole. Jordan would have to get four points a basket. Loda would have to get free treads to achieve 95% win rate.
The matchup is inherently flawed. All of our discussion won't achieve much unless we are talking about how to nerf protoss a bit or how to buff terran a bit to solve the problem. Changing up unit comps or build orders simply isnt the answer.
If only your capacity to reinvent the TvP matchup was equal to your capacity to make hysterical and ridiculous analogies
I think alot of T players underestimate how good Tanks and Ravens are in this match-up. The addition of Ravens/Tanks means that the P is going to have a hard time countering your kiting late game, as PDD eliminates all Stalker fire.
Not to mention that Tanks just rape alot of shit on the ground that P has. The only cost effective counters P has to Tanks are Chargealots and Immortals, but one or two EMPs means that any Bio with stim will eat through those Chargealots/Immortals real fast.
Mech/Bio IMO is what T's should be moving towards, or playing a heavy air style ala NTT with alot of PFs/Tanks/Turrets. I think alot of people are underestimating how strong T defensive harass style is, as I generally lose to that kind of macro style late game as P most of the time.
On December 21 2010 13:18 5unrise wrote: I think the reason why protoss players finds PvT to be diificult is because they are comparing the PvT matchup to PvZ. PvZ is just a skewed matchup in which tosses has so many options, and ultimately just need to turtle till they can just a-move their colossi stalker armies and crush zerg unless Z plays prefectly, or go for easy early game wins off one base. In PvT, however, Terran can actually fight back, and Toss has to, to an extent, earn the win. The cruise-control victories that are so easily achieved against zerg cannot be replicated against terran, so protoss complains that T is too strong. From what I can see, it is Terran who are at a disadvantage in this matchup, since toss can just stay alive for 10 minutes and then have a massive tech advantage in the form of storms. The fact that Toss complains about T early game is non-sensical, especially given how many stupid allins and ridiculous lategame composition toss has against zerg
On December 23 2010 12:33 AspenY wrote: I would say that marines are underused in this matchup, upgraded combat marines with ghosts can be quite effective (not just cost effective).
On December 22 2010 08:49 Effen wrote: I think its pretty simple. The matchup is just flawed in Protoss' favor.
Take oGcMC for example. Lets say he is the best PvT player on the planet. He claims a 95% win percentage over all Terrans. This is the problem.
Look at other individuals who are the very best at their craft. Tiger Woods would never win anywhere close to 95% of his match play golf matches if playing against other pros. Michael Jordan would never win 95% of his 1 on 1's vs other pros. Loda in his prime from DotA would never win 95% of solo mids.
My point is, even tho MC is great and this is not intended to take anything away from him, but if someone is able to obtain a 95% win percentage over the other best players in the world, then the problem is with the underlying contest being significantly favored to that individuals way.
There is simply no way that the game can be considered balanced when one player is able to achieve a 95% win rate vs the other best players in the world. Tiger would have to have completely illegal clubs and magnetic golf balls attracted to the hole. Jordan would have to get four points a basket. Loda would have to get free treads to achieve 95% win rate.
The matchup is inherently flawed. All of our discussion won't achieve much unless we are talking about how to nerf protoss a bit or how to buff terran a bit to solve the problem. Changing up unit comps or build orders simply isnt the answer.
People have acheived over 95% winrate before. Best exmaple, Federer. 2005 and 2006 he had a 95% winrate overall year (93% in 2004 which i think is close enough). Or you can look at his US open and wimbledon winrate, Over 13 years he has over 90 % winrate on each of them. Nadal has a 97% winrate in french open over 6 years. So it is doable even in a game that's been played for years and years and even when only competing agaisnt top of the top pros who make it in to these grand slam tournaments. And obviously tennis isn't favored towards one person or another. So it seems your argument is quite flawed.
On December 22 2010 08:49 Effen wrote: I think its pretty simple. The matchup is just flawed in Protoss' favor.
Take oGcMC for example. Lets say he is the best PvT player on the planet. He claims a 95% win percentage over all Terrans. This is the problem.
Look at other individuals who are the very best at their craft. Tiger Woods would never win anywhere close to 95% of his match play golf matches if playing against other pros. Michael Jordan would never win 95% of his 1 on 1's vs other pros. Loda in his prime from DotA would never win 95% of solo mids.
My point is, even tho MC is great and this is not intended to take anything away from him, but if someone is able to obtain a 95% win percentage over the other best players in the world, then the problem is with the underlying contest being significantly favored to that individuals way.
There is simply no way that the game can be considered balanced when one player is able to achieve a 95% win rate vs the other best players in the world. Tiger would have to have completely illegal clubs and magnetic golf balls attracted to the hole. Jordan would have to get four points a basket. Loda would have to get free treads to achieve 95% win rate.
The matchup is inherently flawed. All of our discussion won't achieve much unless we are talking about how to nerf protoss a bit or how to buff terran a bit to solve the problem. Changing up unit comps or build orders simply isnt the answer.
I agree 100%. A new build order or unit combo is not the answer, only a balance patch from Blizzard can mend this match-up. Terran have already tried every realistic strategy and unit combo, there is no solution.
On December 22 2010 08:49 Effen wrote: I think its pretty simple. The matchup is just flawed in Protoss' favor.
Take oGcMC for example. Lets say he is the best PvT player on the planet. He claims a 95% win percentage over all Terrans. This is the problem.
Look at other individuals who are the very best at their craft. Tiger Woods would never win anywhere close to 95% of his match play golf matches if playing against other pros. Michael Jordan would never win 95% of his 1 on 1's vs other pros. Loda in his prime from DotA would never win 95% of solo mids.
My point is, even tho MC is great and this is not intended to take anything away from him, but if someone is able to obtain a 95% win percentage over the other best players in the world, then the problem is with the underlying contest being significantly favored to that individuals way.
There is simply no way that the game can be considered balanced when one player is able to achieve a 95% win rate vs the other best players in the world. Tiger would have to have completely illegal clubs and magnetic golf balls attracted to the hole. Jordan would have to get four points a basket. Loda would have to get free treads to achieve 95% win rate.
The matchup is inherently flawed. All of our discussion won't achieve much unless we are talking about how to nerf protoss a bit or how to buff terran a bit to solve the problem. Changing up unit comps or build orders simply isnt the answer.
I agree 100%. A new build order or unit combo is not the answer, only a balance patch from Blizzard can mend this match-up. Terran have already tried every realistic strategy and unit combo, there is no solution.
I posted that ppl have acheived over 95% winrate above, and also since i've been following starcraft for quite some times, i remember ChoJJa having a 90% winrate against toss in 2003 (well technically it was 90% but everyone in Korea back then said it was bascially 90% because 2 of the games he lost were in island maps, which is no longer used because it's impossible for zerg. Yes i am a Korean who used to live there back then). But it's not like since then there were any patches to broodwar. But look at things now, it seems to be okay doesn't it? Back then toss used to cry a lot and toss had worse records than any of the 3 races now.
I've seen these replays and although they appeared to play well, they failed to react to MaNa's build. MaNa went templar tech in pretty much every game, which means he has chargelots, which means he wrecks tank based play. However, if the terrans had gone for a more thor heavy play, i believe they would have steamrolled MaNa. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Painuser is the only player i've seen who understands how TvP works. You cant stick on tier one, and hope to last for the long haul. Both players failed to react to templar based play, which is not that hard to beat. Don't complain about storm being imba. Protoss is so fragile getting it its ridiculous.
On December 25 2010 04:19 drgonzhere wrote: I've seen these replays and although they appeared to play well, they failed to react to MaNa's build. MaNa went templar tech in pretty much every game, which means he has chargelots, which means he wrecks tank based play. However, if the terrans had gone for a more thor heavy play, i believe they would have steamrolled MaNa. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Painuser is the only player i've seen who understands how TvP works. You cant stick on tier one, and hope to last for the long haul. Both players failed to react to templar based play, which is not that hard to beat. Don't complain about storm being imba. Protoss is so fragile getting it its ridiculous.
I agree with what he said. It seems the usual mass rauder rine viking ghost build just doesn't cut it anymore against the best tosses. Watching MC's style vs terran in the recent GSL made me cringe as a terran player. He pretty much exploited every weakness terran has to the fullest with his toss style of play.
On December 25 2010 04:19 drgonzhere wrote: I've seen these replays and although they appeared to play well, they failed to react to MaNa's build. MaNa went templar tech in pretty much every game, which means he has chargelots, which means he wrecks tank based play. However, if the terrans had gone for a more thor heavy play, i believe they would have steamrolled MaNa. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Painuser is the only player i've seen who understands how TvP works. You cant stick on tier one, and hope to last for the long haul. Both players failed to react to templar based play, which is not that hard to beat. Don't complain about storm being imba. Protoss is so fragile getting it its ridiculous.
You are mistaken - charglots hardcounter thor based play as well. All the terran high end mech units because worse and worse as the game goes on. Air units are good, but not sufficient to base an army on. This is why you see top terrans sticking to bio+air even in the lategame. It's because it is the most superior option available.
Additionally, as much as I like Painuser, we've only seen his "style" in A SINGLE GAME at ONE mlg. It's not like he's dominating toss left, right, and center with his style. If it was so good, everybody would be doing it.
On December 25 2010 02:45 TossNub wrote: People have acheived over 95% winrate before. Best exmaple, Federer. 2005 and 2006 he had a 95% winrate overall year (93% in 2004 which i think is close enough). Or you can look at his US open and wimbledon winrate, Over 13 years he has over 90 % winrate on each of them. Nadal has a 97% winrate in french open over 6 years. So it is doable even in a game that's been played for years and years and even when only competing agaisnt top of the top pros who make it in to these grand slam tournaments. And obviously tennis isn't favored towards one person or another. So it seems your argument is quite flawed.
I assume MC is talking about customs, ladder & the GSL. Pro tennis records, on the other hand, come almost entirely from single-elimination tournaments. There you can't have more than 1 loss per tourney whereas you can have up to 7 wins. So...
Federer has a bad tournament, he's 0-1. He has a good tournament and he's 7-0. The numbers will always skew heavily toward wins for the best players.
If Federer (or anyone else) were playing ladder matches and/or round-robin leagues in addition to tournaments 95% wouldn't be realistic.
If MC's at 95% he's really got Protoss and everything else figured out. Whether or not it's the Protoss turn to be OP, I have no idea. I'm waiting to see what happens next month.
In case anyone hasn't listened to this, check out 11:20 - 13:05. Browder & Cooper were all over the early Terran/late Protoss issue at Blizzcon. I wonder what their latest take is.
sorry for offtopic, but isnt this a balance thread? not that i mind, but i really thought any comment on balance or imbalance is not allowed on these forums. well maybe hopefully it changed.
TvP is such bs. It's either win by mm or contain at P natural w siege/bunkers by the 15-20 minute mark, or straight up wait for your death. Whatever counter you can pull out your ass (rebuilding infrastructure and such) in, say, 5 minutes, P will hard counter your counter in 2 warp cycles and piss all over you.
i only watched one rep, but i think the other two were played in a similar fashion. servyoa (?) just couldnt fight the templars, in the last fight he had one ghost and 2000 overgas in the first he got 3 ghosts feedbacked by one lonely templar, he could have just scanned and sniped/emped the ht. there are 3 counters to templars. and by counters i mean units that dont melt in 3 secs. thors battlecruisers and maybe tanks, but those are kinda special. thors and battlecruisers are just aoe proof. if you have enough of them, the protoss cant just storm you to death. right now thors and bcs have no freaking costeffective counter. voids are kinda nice, but you know what a starport can also produce. if you dont like those three, get ghosts. they require some micro, but srsly not more than feedback and spreading. emp has more range than feedback check liquipedia on this before you comment. IF YOUR GHOSTS GET FEEDBACKED ITS YOUR OWN FUCKING FAULT. in some way, this is even proven. we all know, that templars rape the shit out of a terran bio army, so why are people building collossi? they certainly arent stronger, because if collossi were even stronger than hts there would be over 40%protoss in top 200 and not 8terrans in top 10 of korea. if there is no appropriate response to templars, why isnt every protoss playing a ht strat? if you cant find any relief in any of those options, quit the game. you cant win with pure mmm vs templars.
On December 29 2010 20:51 ensis wrote:IF YOUR GHOSTS GET FEEDBACKED ITS YOUR OWN FUCKING FAULT.
In the same fashion i could say "if your templars get emp'd it's your own damn fault". EMP isn't a counter to HTs anymore than feedback is to ghosts. It's just a matter of who hits first. Although ghosts might have the advantage due to cloak and +1 range, HTs don't die to emp, ghosts can die to feedback. EMP'd templars can still morph to archons, while a feedbacked ghosts is either dead or an expensive marine.
Ghosts are a way for terran to deal with templars, they are NOT a counter, much less a hard counter. The only units that could be considered a counter to templars (as they don't die to storm or feedback) are the thor and maybe the bc (since they still have a shitton of hp after feedback) and the siege tank (although they still die pretty fast to storm and can't move out).
And yeah ...
On December 29 2010 20:51 ensis wrote:right now thors and bcs have no freaking costeffective counter. voids are kinda nice, but you know what a starport can also produce.
I'm not entirely sure about bcs but thors die to pretty much everything besides sentries and stalkers. 4 zealots kill one thor, 1 void ray kills a thor, that's not cost effective for you ? Also notice that voids do pretty well against ALL of the units that might be considered a counter to HTs (thor, bc, tank).
idk if bcs are the answer to TvP lategame. Although they do pretty well in a decicive battle, any decent protoss will abuse your laughable mobility all day.
On December 29 2010 18:09 eatpraylove wrote: In case anyone hasn't listened to this, check out 11:20 - 13:05. Browder & Cooper were all over the early Terran/late Protoss issue at Blizzcon. I wonder what their latest take is.
thank you for the link. here's the tl;dr for people too lazy to watch the whole thing:
Browder about PvT:
- Terran very powerful in the early game, especially with stim timing pushes - in many cases Protoss "a little strong" in the lategame - if the Terrans can hold out it seems like a combination of Colossi and/or even more important psistorm gives the Protoss the advantage - even with a balanced win ratio in diamond there might be a more fundamental design problem here - we could have a situation very soon where technically the win ratio is 50:50 but its all about whether Terran can win in the first 12 minutes or not, and if they don't win, the protoss will win - we could say the win ratio is 50:50 and thats good enough, but thats not the game we want to make - we will look at stim balance affecting the early game and storm/warpin balance affecting the late game
On December 29 2010 20:51 ensis wrote: i only watched one rep, but i think the other two were played in a similar fashion. servyoa (?) just couldnt fight the templars, in the last fight he had one ghost and 2000 overgas in the first he got 3 ghosts feedbacked by one lonely templar, he could have just scanned and sniped/emped the ht. there are 3 counters to templars. and by counters i mean units that dont melt in 3 secs. thors battlecruisers and maybe tanks, but those are kinda special. thors and battlecruisers are just aoe proof. if you have enough of them, the protoss cant just storm you to death. right now thors and bcs have no freaking costeffective counter. voids are kinda nice, but you know what a starport can also produce. if you dont like those three, get ghosts. they require some micro, but srsly not more than feedback and spreading. emp has more range than feedback check liquipedia on this before you comment. IF YOUR GHOSTS GET FEEDBACKED ITS YOUR OWN FUCKING FAULT. in some way, this is even proven. we all know, that templars rape the shit out of a terran bio army, so why are people building collossi? they certainly arent stronger, because if collossi were even stronger than hts there would be over 40%protoss in top 200 and not 8terrans in top 10 of korea. if there is no appropriate response to templars, why isnt every protoss playing a ht strat? if you cant find any relief in any of those options, quit the game. you cant win with pure mmm vs templars.
yeap, whole P army is just templars wandering around. not like he can spam 2X3X2=12 zealots of 2 base in 2 cycles, stomping the 2-3 thors you might get in the same timeframe.
tanks? zealots with legs?
BC? by the time you get a nice mass of 4 or more, youre already dead. unless P sucks. and counting on your opponent to suck so you have a chance to win is not game balance.
only thing thats ruins late game TvP is that amulet upgrade that should be removed. ability to warp ANYWHERE in 3 seconds a unit that can take out other 10, that's whats wrong.
templars are nice to play with and against, but you cant have 1000 apm and be a fucking oracle to have ghosts already placed all over the map just to snipe shit down
On December 29 2010 20:51 ensis wrote:IF YOUR GHOSTS GET FEEDBACKED ITS YOUR OWN FUCKING FAULT.
In the same fashion i could say "if your templars get emp'd it's your own damn fault". EMP isn't a counter to HTs anymore than feedback is to ghosts. It's just a matter of who hits first. Although ghosts might have the advantage due to cloak and +1 range, HTs don't die to emp, ghosts can die to feedback. EMP'd templars can still morph to archons, while a feedbacked ghosts is either dead or an expensive marine.
Ghosts are a way for terran to deal with templars, they are NOT a counter, much less a hard counter. The only units that could be considered a counter to templars (as they don't die to storm or feedback) are the thor and maybe the bc (since they still have a shitton of hp after feedback) and the siege tank (although they still die pretty fast to storm and can't move out).
On December 29 2010 20:51 ensis wrote:right now thors and bcs have no freaking costeffective counter. voids are kinda nice, but you know what a starport can also produce.
I'm not entirely sure about bcs but thors die to pretty much everything besides sentries and stalkers. 4 zealots kill one thor, 1 void ray kills a thor, that's not cost effective for you ? Also notice that voids do pretty well against ALL of the units that might be considered a counter to HTs (thor, bc, tank).
idk if bcs are the answer to TvP lategame. Although they do pretty well in a decicive battle, any decent protoss will abuse your laughable mobility all day.
emp is aoe, so if you hit with the edge you have a bonus of 3 range. but even if we ignore this. if the ghosts gets feedbacked, he missed his emp, its as simple as that. if a templar gets emped, he had no chance of dodging or anything else. a templar can only feedback if you miss your emp, its really that simple. and even if you dont agree on that. yes, if we ignore those two points, the one who is faster has the advantage, they call it skill, nothing wrong with this. and no, thors dont die to anything if you take everything into account. the canon, possible emps and only a few hellions will grill any zealots. thors are also amazing supplywise. they only cost 6 suppley which is 3 zealots. the only real good response to thors are air units. voids will own them even more after the next patch and also bcs will eventually lose to void+ht. the problem are vikings. with their insane range and dps, they kill voids insanely fast, especially with the flux vanes propably removed for whatever reason. the problem with terran are not single units, its their synergie. and whether you like it or not, if you dont want to die to templars, either cheese or get one of those proposed units in good number. if your thors got massacred, your bcs vanished in the skies and your ghosts exploded of headage, then there will be a problem with balance, but honestly, we will never reach that point, i think. oh and for that templars dont die argument....well, a templar CANT RUN! if they are out of energy they die, its as simple as that, or they become archons, which are quite cool actually, but there still is no more templar. i just had another idea, why not use the terrans insane defensive capabilities? get a few bunkers and maybe even a pf just for defense, a few tanks and some barracks and depots. with turrets and sensor towers, you should be really fine defensewise. mech or ghosts or both, these are your options, find out what works best for you.
Why is everyone comparing emp to feedback? Thats just wrong. As Terran you dont want to emp high templars. You want to emp high templars before they get their storms off. Thats a huge difference. Storming the terran bioball is much easier than to emp every single high templar.
I have been playing on a high competitive level since the beta days and im high diamond from phase 1 beta end to now.
The short PvT MU story is as follows:
Mid phase 1 beta(i dont know what happened before that,didnt have a beta key): Terran goes MMM or MMG protoss either tries to tech to templar and gets roflstomped at early game or makes mass gateway army+some immortals and gets roflstomped later when bioball reaches critical mas(but before storm is finished). There were some pretty big upsets(like when marine build time got nerfed and immortals still were made pretty fast) but they were fixed in a timely manner.
Because of the massive roflstomp from 1 base allins with MM or MMG toss tried to find alternate ways to play. 7 range voidrays did the job pretty damn well, and actually gave P many wins.
Ofc many "oldschool" BW strategies were there also: eg 4 gate and DT rush
End of phase 1, whole phase 2: The above continues to happen, but some terrans like QXC(after the buffs on mech) discover that tanks+marines or hellions work pretty good vs toss. Massive ammounts of toss rage incoming as toss couldnt scout easily if a 3 gate MMM or Marine-tank push was coming and prepare for it. Ofc phoenixes worked vs tanks, but that just made the fight even,i.e phoenix didnt give toss army an advantage, it just gave them a chance to win if they microed better.
But suddenly, some P players like tester found out that even if vikings own hard collosi, P could still get away with making collosi(we all know why,wont discuss that further). Meanwhile,strategies like 3 gate 1 stargate phoenix began to be perfected
Release up to today:
2 base collosi into 3 base collo-templar is pretty much standard for macro games, and voidray +2/3 gate 1 base push is also very strong. T still gets MMM or MMG
I know i have some pretty big holes in the above statement(ofc i cant cover 10 months of sc2 history in ~200 words) but the point i wanna make is this:
Since the start of the beta P have major trouble beating T. We have tried infinite ammounts of strategies to defeat terrans,and always adapted! Right now PvT may seem P favoured but thats all because T didnt change starts at all during the beta/release: They started with MM and they still make MM 80% of the games. Sure,they learned some pretty cool 1 base timing pushes-allins(thor-marine, banshee-raven-marine etc) but thats about it.
On December 29 2010 21:43 ensis wrote: and no, thors dont die to anything if you take everything into account. the canon, possible emps and only a few hellions will grill any zealots. thors are also amazing supplywise. they only cost 6 suppley which is 3 zealots. the only real good response to thors are air units. voids will own them even more after the next patch and also bcs will eventually lose to void+ht.
Have you actually ever tried to use thors against protoss (other than in the 1-2 thor push) ? Well, i have, and i tell you it just doesn't work if the protoss either gets a lot of lots, a couple immortals or void rays. Even Collosi work quite well against thors due to their superior range and speed. Also notice that if you get thors, you lose every bit of mobility you have. You can no longer dodge storms as if you do so, your thors lag behind and get easily picked off.
And neither the strike cannon, nor emp and hellions are an adequate answer help your thors against zealots. The cannon only hits one unit (and if you do it to a zealot, you do less dps than with your autoattack), emp only takes away 1/3 of the zealots hp and hellions are only good against zealots if you can kite them (which you can't since your thors are too slow). The only good option you have to protect your thors against zealots are marines (which die instantly to storm or collossi).
Also note that by going heavy thor, you cannot afford to get as much vikings, medivacs or ghosts as you might need.
If you think that going thors against toss lategame is viable, please provide a replay which actually shows this. I can only tell you that i have tried numerous times and failed miserably. I actually won a few times with mech in TvP lategame, but with tanks, never with thors.
i got such enormous problems as terran against protoss ... if they decide to play a macro game .. i win ... if they decide to use their early game well i die 100% ... if i fast expand and they do 3gate voidray ... i am so FUCKING Dead every single game. I play Terran at 2700 Rating on the European servers. i really think i should completetly stop fast expanding against protoss and play completely safe 1base all ins xD! Its so funny, nobody used voids .. now they got nerfed again ... and they own me up xD
On December 29 2010 21:43 ensis wrote: and no, thors dont die to anything if you take everything into account. the canon, possible emps and only a few hellions will grill any zealots. thors are also amazing supplywise. they only cost 6 suppley which is 3 zealots. the only real good response to thors are air units. voids will own them even more after the next patch and also bcs will eventually lose to void+ht.
Have you actually ever tried to use thors against protoss (other than in the 1-2 thor push) ? Well, i have, and i tell you it just doesn't work if the protoss either gets a lot of lots, a couple immortals or void rays. Even Collosi work quite well against thors due to their superior range and speed. Also notice that if you get thors, you lose every bit of mobility you have. You can no longer dodge storms as if you do so, your thors lag behind and get easily picked off.
And neither the strike cannon, nor emp and hellions are an adequate answer help your thors against zealots. The cannon only hits one unit (and if you do it to a zealot, you do less dps than with your autoattack), emp only takes away 1/3 of the zealots hp and hellions are only good against zealots if you can kite them (which you can't since your thors are too slow). The only good option you have to protect your thors against zealots are marines (which die instantly to storm or collossi).
Also note that by going heavy thor, you cannot afford to get as much vikings, medivacs or ghosts as you might need.
If you think that going thors against toss lategame is viable, please provide a replay which actually shows this. I can only tell you that i have tried numerous times and failed miserably. I actually won a few times with mech in TvP lategame, but with tanks, never with thors.
no i havent tried thors myself because im toss^^ immortals just die to the canon, pls no discussion, yes, you can lift them up with phoenices but srsly, that wont happen in a real game, if he does, hes gosu. and viking thor is gasintensive, but not more than voidrays, its pretty even. and you dont need the hellions to burn every zealot to crisps intantly, but they help. i cant help you out with a replay, because i stopped using hts ages ago, after i met some terrans, that really knew how to hit emps. and collossi only have 2 range more and do pretty much no damage to thors. you can just look at the thor stats and be amazed. just compare him to the marauder: thor rauder (stimmed) 300 200 100 25 ----> 3-4rauders 47 dps 30-40 vs light 60-80 vs armored range 7 6 400hp 300-400 massive not massive (forcefields!)
thors are less affected by storms or guardian shields, can walk down forcefields, have the canon (which is better than concussive imo) and dont lose dps during the fight like 4 marauders, because they die one after another, dont need to be stimmed.
again, this is pure theorie, but i dont see, why its better to make marauders. yes, they can kite and are faster. i mean, marauders suck even more vs zealots and they can be trapped by forcefields, which is the other toss spell terrans are complaining about.
and really, if you dont like the thor, learn to micro your ghosts. if you dont make a mistake, you win every battle vs templars, and even if your rauder catch one storm, just retreat and let your medis do the job. and again, if thors dont work for you, try tanks as you said. you can be pretty confident, that there is a counter, and propably even a few, just try stuff out.
I know that thors look good IN THEORY, that's why i tried using them for countless games. I learned the hard way though that disadvantages like being slow that don't look big in theory, are actually HUGE in the actual game. Thors work in theory, not in reality. That's why i challenged you to show me a replay of a terran using primarily thors in lategame TvP successfully.
There are things you just don't consider, like that strike cannon vs immortals only works in small engagements, in the lategame thors die too fast to focus fire for the cannon to be used effectively.
Your comparison between thor and rauder shows exactly why marauders are the better choice. they do more dps vs armored and comparable dps to light and have similar hp. What you conveniently didn't mention is that marauders can be healed (thors can, in theory, be repaired, but scvs die instantly to lategame aoe). And that marauders are like 3 times as fast with stim.
I wasn't complaining at all about toss, just pointing out that thors are pretty much useless in lategame TvP.
On December 29 2010 21:43 ensis wrote: and no, thors dont die to anything if you take everything into account. the canon, possible emps and only a few hellions will grill any zealots. thors are also amazing supplywise. they only cost 6 suppley which is 3 zealots. the only real good response to thors are air units. voids will own them even more after the next patch and also bcs will eventually lose to void+ht.
Have you actually ever tried to use thors against protoss (other than in the 1-2 thor push) ? Well, i have, and i tell you it just doesn't work if the protoss either gets a lot of lots, a couple immortals or void rays. Even Collosi work quite well against thors due to their superior range and speed. Also notice that if you get thors, you lose every bit of mobility you have. You can no longer dodge storms as if you do so, your thors lag behind and get easily picked off.
And neither the strike cannon, nor emp and hellions are an adequate answer help your thors against zealots. The cannon only hits one unit (and if you do it to a zealot, you do less dps than with your autoattack), emp only takes away 1/3 of the zealots hp and hellions are only good against zealots if you can kite them (which you can't since your thors are too slow). The only good option you have to protect your thors against zealots are marines (which die instantly to storm or collossi).
Also note that by going heavy thor, you cannot afford to get as much vikings, medivacs or ghosts as you might need.
If you think that going thors against toss lategame is viable, please provide a replay which actually shows this. I can only tell you that i have tried numerous times and failed miserably. I actually won a few times with mech in TvP lategame, but with tanks, never with thors.
no i havent tried thors myself because im toss^^ immortals just die to the canon, pls no discussion, yes, you can lift them up with phoenices but srsly, that wont happen in a real game, if he does, hes gosu. and viking thor is gasintensive, but not more than voidrays, its pretty even. and you dont need the hellions to burn every zealot to crisps intantly, but they help. i cant help you out with a replay, because i stopped using hts ages ago, after i met some terrans, that really knew how to hit emps. and collossi only have 2 range more and do pretty much no damage to thors. you can just look at the thor stats and be amazed. just compare him to the marauder: thor rauder (stimmed) 300 200 100 25 ----> 3-4rauders 47 dps 30-40 vs light 60-80 vs armored range 7 6 400hp 300-400 massive not massive (forcefields!)
thors are less affected by storms or guardian shields, can walk down forcefields, have the canon (which is better than concussive imo) and dont lose dps during the fight like 4 marauders, because they die one after another, dont need to be stimmed.
again, this is pure theorie, but i dont see, why its better to make marauders. yes, they can kite and are faster. i mean, marauders suck even more vs zealots and they can be trapped by forcefields, which is the other toss spell terrans are complaining about.
and really, if you dont like the thor, learn to micro your ghosts. if you dont make a mistake, you win every battle vs templars, and even if your rauder catch one storm, just retreat and let your medis do the job. and again, if thors dont work for you, try tanks as you said. you can be pretty confident, that there is a counter, and propably even a few, just try stuff out.
Just stop it. Listen to what Lurk says, he is right and I agree with him as a terran player. We all respect your opinion on Thors, but we think that your opinion is flawed as marauders are really better than Thors in reality, due to the mobility synergy in SC2 terran.
You admitted that you didn't play Terran and never used a Thor before, so your statistics and theory craft shouldn't take precedent over our tried and true advice. (Not to belittle you, just pointing this out so that newbies don't get mislead).
Plus, the lines in bold - it doesn't matter that all your HTs got EMPed, a decent Toss will warp in 3 more HTs with amulets into the battlefield (with nearby pylon/warp prism) and voila! 3 storms available while Terran are stuck on 0 energy for further EMPs. Storms don't have to do maximum damage - they just need to chase your army out of position and let the conventional units pawn the terran. Forcefields will greatly help in this aspect. Ghosts can only lessen the impact of Toss spells (less storms and less FF being casted), not totally cancel it.
I think we can all agree that Terran late game is mostly hindered by how long it takes to transition from rax units to mech units such as Thors, especially with their slow build time and expensive cost.
The only instance where I saw someone pull off this transition was PainUser vs Nony in the last MLG on LT cross position if I remember correctly.
On December 29 2010 23:06 ensis wrote: and really, if you dont like the thor, learn to micro your ghosts. if you dont make a mistake, you win every battle vs templars, and even if your rauder catch one storm, just retreat and let your medis do the job. and again, if thors dont work for you, try tanks as you said. you can be pretty confident, that there is a counter, and propably even a few, just try stuff out.
you might be ok as protoss but clueless as terran.
miss 1 emp with a ghost/ missmicro ghost and loose it > storms wreck your world
next ghost, assuming energy upgrade is available gets into the battlefield in so you can actually use it in ?!?!?!?
miss 1 storm/missmicro templar and loose it > back away a bit
next templar for you to use into the battlefield available in ?!?!?!?
On December 29 2010 21:43 ensis wrote: and no, thors dont die to anything if you take everything into account. the canon, possible emps and only a few hellions will grill any zealots. thors are also amazing supplywise. they only cost 6 suppley which is 3 zealots. the only real good response to thors are air units. voids will own them even more after the next patch and also bcs will eventually lose to void+ht.
Have you actually ever tried to use thors against protoss (other than in the 1-2 thor push) ? Well, i have, and i tell you it just doesn't work if the protoss either gets a lot of lots, a couple immortals or void rays. Even Collosi work quite well against thors due to their superior range and speed. Also notice that if you get thors, you lose every bit of mobility you have. You can no longer dodge storms as if you do so, your thors lag behind and get easily picked off.
And neither the strike cannon, nor emp and hellions are an adequate answer help your thors against zealots. The cannon only hits one unit (and if you do it to a zealot, you do less dps than with your autoattack), emp only takes away 1/3 of the zealots hp and hellions are only good against zealots if you can kite them (which you can't since your thors are too slow). The only good option you have to protect your thors against zealots are marines (which die instantly to storm or collossi).
Also note that by going heavy thor, you cannot afford to get as much vikings, medivacs or ghosts as you might need.
If you think that going thors against toss lategame is viable, please provide a replay which actually shows this. I can only tell you that i have tried numerous times and failed miserably. I actually won a few times with mech in TvP lategame, but with tanks, never with thors.
no i havent tried thors myself because im toss^^ immortals just die to the canon, pls no discussion, yes, you can lift them up with phoenices but srsly, that wont happen in a real game, if he does, hes gosu. and viking thor is gasintensive, but not more than voidrays, its pretty even. and you dont need the hellions to burn every zealot to crisps intantly, but they help. i cant help you out with a replay, because i stopped using hts ages ago, after i met some terrans, that really knew how to hit emps. and collossi only have 2 range more and do pretty much no damage to thors. you can just look at the thor stats and be amazed. just compare him to the marauder: thor rauder (stimmed) 300 200 100 25 ----> 3-4rauders 47 dps 30-40 vs light 60-80 vs armored range 7 6 400hp 300-400 massive not massive (forcefields!)
thors are less affected by storms or guardian shields, can walk down forcefields, have the canon (which is better than concussive imo) and dont lose dps during the fight like 4 marauders, because they die one after another, dont need to be stimmed.
again, this is pure theorie, but i dont see, why its better to make marauders. yes, they can kite and are faster. i mean, marauders suck even more vs zealots and they can be trapped by forcefields, which is the other toss spell terrans are complaining about.
and really, if you dont like the thor, learn to micro your ghosts. if you dont make a mistake, you win every battle vs templars, and even if your rauder catch one storm, just retreat and let your medis do the job. and again, if thors dont work for you, try tanks as you said. you can be pretty confident, that there is a counter, and propably even a few, just try stuff out.
Just stop it. Listen to what Lurk says, he is right and I agree with him as a terran player. We all respect your opinion on Thors, but we think that your opinion is flawed as marauders are really better than Thors in reality, due to the mobility synergy in SC2 terran.
You admitted that you didn't play Terran and never used a Thor before, so your statistics and theory craft shouldn't take precedent over our tried and true advice. (Not to belittle you, just pointing this out so that newbies don't get mislead).
Plus, the lines in bold - it doesn't matter that all your HTs got EMPed, a decent Toss will warp in 3 more HTs with amulets into the battlefield (with nearby pylon/warp prism) and voila! 3 storms available while Terran are stuck on 0 energy for further EMPs. Storms don't have to do maximum damage - they just need to chase your army out of position and let the conventional units pawn the terran. Forcefields will greatly help in this aspect. Ghosts can only lessen the impact of Toss spells (less storms and less FF being casted), not totally cancel it.
well, if you say, the thor wont cut it, then be it, though i heard of some korean i cant remember the name who is using thors vs p lately with great success, but i might be wrong.
what do you mean by out of position? you cant storm the back of the terran army, and isnt moving back and kiting the zealots what you do anyways? well, because zealots cant really hit kiting marauders and stalkers just suck, storm needs to do substantial damage, thats for sure. if storm doesnt need to do damage, why make templars? and your logic is flawed, you say, if you emp my templars, i just warp in fresh ones and you are out of emp. well, if you only bring 2 ghosts, when i have 10 templars, you will lose, thats right, but thats only because i spend 5times more gas. and then forcefields, which require sentries. just look at the rep im referring to. 2000 overgas. would be plenty of ghost energy wouldnt it? yes, if i spend more gas on templars and you only have one emp per ghost, and if i spread out my templars perfectly, i will get some storms off, but in this scenario your army was just not hightech enough and i played perfectly so i deserve winning.
On December 29 2010 23:06 ensis wrote: and really, if you dont like the thor, learn to micro your ghosts. if you dont make a mistake, you win every battle vs templars, and even if your rauder catch one storm, just retreat and let your medis do the job. and again, if thors dont work for you, try tanks as you said. you can be pretty confident, that there is a counter, and propably even a few, just try stuff out.
you might be ok as protoss but clueless as terran.
miss 1 emp with a ghost/ missmicro ghost and loose it > storms wreck your world
next ghost, assuming energy upgrade is available gets into the battlefield in so you can actually use it in ?!?!?!?
miss 1 storm/missmicro templar and loose it > back away a bit
next templar for you to use into the battlefield available in ?!?!?!?
templar is just ghost in arcade mode
omg lol, you say stimmed marauders cant dodge a storm, but templars hit by concossive shells or zealots can back out??????????
and its just simple, if you dont make a mistake as terran, you win, if you make mistakes protoss will punish you, this gets especially obvious if you take a close look at the racial distribution on the ladder atm. at low levels, terrans make many mistakes and get owned by toss. the better the terrans get, the less they get punished by toss, which explains the over 40% terrans in every 100 fairly well. there is a counter to hts and its propably ghosts at higher levels, at least at mine (~top300 on eu i think) if there wasnt a counter, every protoss would just rape terrans without any problems and thats srsly not the case. the opinion of pros or at least top 100 players would be nice.
On December 29 2010 21:43 ensis wrote: and no, thors dont die to anything if you take everything into account. the canon, possible emps and only a few hellions will grill any zealots. thors are also amazing supplywise. they only cost 6 suppley which is 3 zealots. the only real good response to thors are air units. voids will own them even more after the next patch and also bcs will eventually lose to void+ht.
Have you actually ever tried to use thors against protoss (other than in the 1-2 thor push) ? Well, i have, and i tell you it just doesn't work if the protoss either gets a lot of lots, a couple immortals or void rays. Even Collosi work quite well against thors due to their superior range and speed. Also notice that if you get thors, you lose every bit of mobility you have. You can no longer dodge storms as if you do so, your thors lag behind and get easily picked off.
And neither the strike cannon, nor emp and hellions are an adequate answer help your thors against zealots. The cannon only hits one unit (and if you do it to a zealot, you do less dps than with your autoattack), emp only takes away 1/3 of the zealots hp and hellions are only good against zealots if you can kite them (which you can't since your thors are too slow). The only good option you have to protect your thors against zealots are marines (which die instantly to storm or collossi).
Also note that by going heavy thor, you cannot afford to get as much vikings, medivacs or ghosts as you might need.
If you think that going thors against toss lategame is viable, please provide a replay which actually shows this. I can only tell you that i have tried numerous times and failed miserably. I actually won a few times with mech in TvP lategame, but with tanks, never with thors.
no i havent tried thors myself because im toss^^ immortals just die to the canon, pls no discussion, yes, you can lift them up with phoenices but srsly, that wont happen in a real game, if he does, hes gosu. and viking thor is gasintensive, but not more than voidrays, its pretty even. and you dont need the hellions to burn every zealot to crisps intantly, but they help. i cant help you out with a replay, because i stopped using hts ages ago, after i met some terrans, that really knew how to hit emps. and collossi only have 2 range more and do pretty much no damage to thors. you can just look at the thor stats and be amazed. just compare him to the marauder: thor rauder (stimmed) 300 200 100 25 ----> 3-4rauders 47 dps 30-40 vs light 60-80 vs armored range 7 6 400hp 300-400 massive not massive (forcefields!)
thors are less affected by storms or guardian shields, can walk down forcefields, have the canon (which is better than concussive imo) and dont lose dps during the fight like 4 marauders, because they die one after another, dont need to be stimmed.
again, this is pure theorie, but i dont see, why its better to make marauders. yes, they can kite and are faster. i mean, marauders suck even more vs zealots and they can be trapped by forcefields, which is the other toss spell terrans are complaining about.
and really, if you dont like the thor, learn to micro your ghosts. if you dont make a mistake, you win every battle vs templars, and even if your rauder catch one storm, just retreat and let your medis do the job. and again, if thors dont work for you, try tanks as you said. you can be pretty confident, that there is a counter, and propably even a few, just try stuff out.
Just stop it. Listen to what Lurk says, he is right and I agree with him as a terran player. We all respect your opinion on Thors, but we think that your opinion is flawed as marauders are really better than Thors in reality, due to the mobility synergy in SC2 terran.
You admitted that you didn't play Terran and never used a Thor before, so your statistics and theory craft shouldn't take precedent over our tried and true advice. (Not to belittle you, just pointing this out so that newbies don't get mislead).
Plus, the lines in bold - it doesn't matter that all your HTs got EMPed, a decent Toss will warp in 3 more HTs with amulets into the battlefield (with nearby pylon/warp prism) and voila! 3 storms available while Terran are stuck on 0 energy for further EMPs. Storms don't have to do maximum damage - they just need to chase your army out of position and let the conventional units pawn the terran. Forcefields will greatly help in this aspect. Ghosts can only lessen the impact of Toss spells (less storms and less FF being casted), not totally cancel it.
why would terran be stuck at 0 energy when toss warps in 3 more hts? better bring some extra ghosts next time then So often I see terrans being greedy when it comes to ghosts vs templars.
Because ghosts have to train and walk...it is almost impossible to match their production without overcompensating. Now if we had calldown: ghost or something, then you might have a point.
Well i dont think overcompensating with ghosts vs toss is a bad thing since you can use the unused ghosts for the next set of ht's or use them on sentries, there is always a use for them, they are never wasted imo. You have to make sure that your main army doesnt get too weak ofc.
On December 30 2010 01:18 dust7 wrote: so, no one here acknowledging that blizzard already said P>T in lategame because of storms?
maybe, and this is just anothter possible answer, the reason why protoss wins the lategame, is because terran always is at a disadvantage reaching the endstage, because they went for some midgame attack. if i go 4 gate vs zerg and lose everything expand then and get steamrolled in the midgame, that doesnt mean, that zerg is op in the midgame. same goes for terran. if terran tries to kill my fe and fails, he is behind and will lose in mid/endgame, no prove for imbalance. and browder even said this, almost every terran tries to end it really early, which is also my expirience.
On December 29 2010 21:43 ensis wrote: and no, thors dont die to anything if you take everything into account. the canon, possible emps and only a few hellions will grill any zealots. thors are also amazing supplywise. they only cost 6 suppley which is 3 zealots. the only real good response to thors are air units. voids will own them even more after the next patch and also bcs will eventually lose to void+ht.
Have you actually ever tried to use thors against protoss (other than in the 1-2 thor push) ? Well, i have, and i tell you it just doesn't work if the protoss either gets a lot of lots, a couple immortals or void rays. Even Collosi work quite well against thors due to their superior range and speed. Also notice that if you get thors, you lose every bit of mobility you have. You can no longer dodge storms as if you do so, your thors lag behind and get easily picked off.
And neither the strike cannon, nor emp and hellions are an adequate answer help your thors against zealots. The cannon only hits one unit (and if you do it to a zealot, you do less dps than with your autoattack), emp only takes away 1/3 of the zealots hp and hellions are only good against zealots if you can kite them (which you can't since your thors are too slow). The only good option you have to protect your thors against zealots are marines (which die instantly to storm or collossi).
Also note that by going heavy thor, you cannot afford to get as much vikings, medivacs or ghosts as you might need.
If you think that going thors against toss lategame is viable, please provide a replay which actually shows this. I can only tell you that i have tried numerous times and failed miserably. I actually won a few times with mech in TvP lategame, but with tanks, never with thors.
no i havent tried thors myself because im toss^^ immortals just die to the canon, pls no discussion, yes, you can lift them up with phoenices but srsly, that wont happen in a real game, if he does, hes gosu. and viking thor is gasintensive, but not more than voidrays, its pretty even. and you dont need the hellions to burn every zealot to crisps intantly, but they help. i cant help you out with a replay, because i stopped using hts ages ago, after i met some terrans, that really knew how to hit emps. and collossi only have 2 range more and do pretty much no damage to thors. you can just look at the thor stats and be amazed. just compare him to the marauder: thor rauder (stimmed) 300 200 100 25 ----> 3-4rauders 47 dps 30-40 vs light 60-80 vs armored range 7 6 400hp 300-400 massive not massive (forcefields!)
thors are less affected by storms or guardian shields, can walk down forcefields, have the canon (which is better than concussive imo) and dont lose dps during the fight like 4 marauders, because they die one after another, dont need to be stimmed.
again, this is pure theorie, but i dont see, why its better to make marauders. yes, they can kite and are faster. i mean, marauders suck even more vs zealots and they can be trapped by forcefields, which is the other toss spell terrans are complaining about.
and really, if you dont like the thor, learn to micro your ghosts. if you dont make a mistake, you win every battle vs templars, and even if your rauder catch one storm, just retreat and let your medis do the job. and again, if thors dont work for you, try tanks as you said. you can be pretty confident, that there is a counter, and propably even a few, just try stuff out.
Just stop it. Listen to what Lurk says, he is right and I agree with him as a terran player. We all respect your opinion on Thors, but we think that your opinion is flawed as marauders are really better than Thors in reality, due to the mobility synergy in SC2 terran.
You admitted that you didn't play Terran and never used a Thor before, so your statistics and theory craft shouldn't take precedent over our tried and true advice. (Not to belittle you, just pointing this out so that newbies don't get mislead).
Plus, the lines in bold - it doesn't matter that all your HTs got EMPed, a decent Toss will warp in 3 more HTs with amulets into the battlefield (with nearby pylon/warp prism) and voila! 3 storms available while Terran are stuck on 0 energy for further EMPs. Storms don't have to do maximum damage - they just need to chase your army out of position and let the conventional units pawn the terran. Forcefields will greatly help in this aspect. Ghosts can only lessen the impact of Toss spells (less storms and less FF being casted), not totally cancel it.
why would terran be stuck at 0 energy when toss warps in 3 more hts? better bring some extra ghosts next time then So often I see terrans being greedy when it comes to ghosts vs templars.
1) Ghost are more expensive 2) They need to walk to battle 3) Toss can go Chargelot Templar, meaning all his gas is to Templar 4) Terran has to make Medivacs which are 100 a pop and die to FeedBack 5) HT warp in is instant and Ghost Feedback is annoying
The fact that you said to just bring more Ghost shows how ignorant you are to the match up. Its not whether you should have brought more, its whether or not you could have brought more, and alot of times you cant. Not to mention Ghosts take forever to make and for every Ghost thats 1 less key Marauder. Since ghost take AGES to Train.
Like in BW Bio once that Templar Splash kicks in is useless(Without Gosu Micro). Blizz needs to buff the Mech options.
well, those 100 minerals more should be that bad. every medivac that gets feedbacked is one storm and propably even one ht less. academy + upgrade 250 150 council + archives + both grades 650 650 the tech is way more expansive, you just have to add ghosts before i have 10+ templars. nc to feedbacking ghosts. if i have pure zealots, just kite me, my templars wont be able to reach you. and toss also needs gas for other stuff. and no toss always has perfect spread. all in all, i think terran can get a solid ghost count, if you still dont believe me, check the rep of servyoa vs mana, 2000 overgas, so.....
On December 30 2010 02:38 ensis wrote: well, those 100 minerals more should be that bad. every medivac that gets feedbacked is one storm and propably even one ht less. academy + upgrade 250 150 council + archives + both grades 650 650 the tech is way more expansive, you just have to add ghosts before i have 10+ templars. nc to feedbacking ghosts. if i have pure zealots, just kite me, my templars wont be able to reach you. and toss also needs gas for other stuff. and no toss always has perfect spread. all in all, i think terran can get a solid ghost count, if you still dont believe me, check the rep of servyoa vs mana, 2000 overgas, so.....
Regardless of perfect spread or not, hell, you can have all HTs in battle die, you simply need to warp in more.
On December 30 2010 01:18 dust7 wrote: so, no one here acknowledging that blizzard already said P>T in lategame because of storms?
maybe, and this is just anothter possible answer, the reason why protoss wins the lategame, is because terran always is at a disadvantage reaching the endstage, because they went for some midgame attack.
or maybe, just maybe protoss should finally admit that their lategame is superior. keep in mind no terran here is complaining about the the winratios of the matchup themselfes.
On December 30 2010 01:18 dust7 wrote: so, no one here acknowledging that blizzard already said P>T in lategame because of storms?
maybe, and this is just anothter possible answer, the reason why protoss wins the lategame, is because terran always is at a disadvantage reaching the endstage, because they went for some midgame attack.
or maybe, just maybe protoss should finally admit that their lategame is superior. keep in mind no terran here is complaining about the the winratios of the matchup themselfes.
Yup, exactly. Win Ratios is even because of Stim rushes that quickly Pound the Toss, but L8 game Protoss is hard to beat especially with storm.
I played both races to about 2.5k diamond in NA(mid level). I will say early game terran seems to much favored against toss as long as you survive to stim. I do lots of stimmed timing attacks, but late game when I play terran as soon as storm comes up its destruction left and right.
As for terran players in this thread, I suggest you play toss. It would feel like every game you have economic disadvantage from the start. Scared to move out. Watch zealot getting kited all day long. A small forcefield mistake can end the game. Sometimes you feel like even though terran can pressure so much, have a stronger army, and still gets an expo out first.
As for the toss players, just try to play terran vs toss late game. It is just so hard versus storm. Thor is not the answer they get owned by speed zealot+storm. EMP is good but definitely not nearly as good as storm. As if you miss 2-3 temps, its going to be raining storms.
On December 30 2010 01:18 dust7 wrote: so, no one here acknowledging that blizzard already said P>T in lategame because of storms?
maybe, and this is just anothter possible answer, the reason why protoss wins the lategame, is because terran always is at a disadvantage reaching the endstage, because they went for some midgame attack.
I'm red, opponent is blue. That is the army value chart.
See that huge advantage I have going into late game?
See how I've had that advantage the whole game?
Yeah, that arrow points to storms, not even good ones, I was even playing bio/mech and all he had to do was just storm more when I dodged a storm, and storm more on my mech to kill it.
As a random player I whole heartly agree that the amulet upgrade makes HT a bit OP imo.I remember Incontrol saying that the HT amulet upgrade is like building the World Wonder in AOE. lol.
I personally would like to see the meta shift to heavy heavy blue flame hellion based armies.
On December 30 2010 01:18 dust7 wrote: so, no one here acknowledging that blizzard already said P>T in lategame because of storms?
maybe, and this is just anothter possible answer, the reason why protoss wins the lategame, is because terran always is at a disadvantage reaching the endstage, because they went for some midgame attack.
I'm red, opponent is blue. That is the army value chart.
See that huge advantage I have going into late game?
See how I've had that advantage the whole game?
Yeah, that arrow points to storms, not even good ones, I was even playing bio/mech and all he had to do was just storm more when I dodged a storm, and storm more on my mech to kill it.
Notice how you and your opponent's lines stay parallel after your big army build up around 800 - always about the same distance from each other. If you are both macroing, but you are pumping army and he's teching, you need to do more damage so that your advantage keeps growing. If your opponent is playing defensively and getting higher tech, you're losing advantage by just staying equal in army size with them.
Well, following this thread for a while now, i see many Terrans from different servers having the same troubles with Protoss. While there is a risk that we are biaised, this thread would be long dead if there was no truth in the fact that Terran has a difficult time with protoss.
The early game T nerfs just shone a light on different issues that even Blizz's balance team acknowledges and uses as an example.
While trying to find a way to answer the strength of P late game, i think we should keep an eye on good arguments that were pointed already. I second those :
_Chargelots are a very efficient mineral dump _Warping system gives protoss full space advantage which is HUGE (ever read Art of War ?) _Terrans are stuck with MMM / MMG due to mech inefficiency for numerous reasons (mobility again ?) _Terran air gets owned by feedback alone ( > raven, pdd, banshee, BC) + obs which are usual tech pattern for protoss anyways _Ghosts are mildly cost efficient and warping system renders them obsolete if the terran has had no economic advantage earlier
I am in no way saying those statements are true, its just the ones that keep coming back and that I experienced myself too.
Truth be told, skill ceiling is also a huge factor, i'd really like to see that "pro thread section" with only 3k+ players access. Eventhough I think we would still see biaised comments, those could be backed with replays and experience, something not many of us here have granted (anyone can say " I'am a 2k9 P and PVT is T favored" ).
Only blizz can change the game, but what we can and should do as of now is change the way we play the cards we're dealt. My only trouble is that I can't seem to do so
you basically have to use your early bio advantage to get some kind of eco advantage in the mid/lategame. once you add thors and ghosts to your bio ball you can take on temps pretty well. Tanks are not the answer
On December 30 2010 03:22 fearus wrote: As a random player I whole heartly agree that the amulet upgrade makes HT a bit OP imo.I remember Incontrol saying that the HT amulet upgrade is like building the World Wonder in AOE. lol.
I personally would like to see the meta shift to heavy heavy blue flame hellion based armies.
The problem with hellions is how easily they get caught by Chargelots. For a Go Kart you sure are Slow. Not to mention the Delay for each shot allows Zealots to catch up.
On December 30 2010 01:18 dust7 wrote: so, no one here acknowledging that blizzard already said P>T in lategame because of storms?
maybe, and this is just anothter possible answer, the reason why protoss wins the lategame, is because terran always is at a disadvantage reaching the endstage, because they went for some midgame attack.
or maybe, just maybe protoss should finally admit that their lategame is superior. keep in mind no terran here is complaining about the the winratios of the matchup themselfes.
oh, really good argument, thats definitely your point. perfect reasoning -.-
On December 30 2010 03:35 dekuschrub wrote: you basically have to use your early bio advantage to get some kind of eco advantage in the mid/lategame. once you add thors and ghosts to your bio ball you can take on temps pretty well. Tanks are not the answer
ever see Jinro vs Socke at MLG... Socke went HT and Jinro went tanks and ghosts with his bio and ultimately won.
On December 29 2010 21:43 ensis wrote: and no, thors dont die to anything if you take everything into account. the canon, possible emps and only a few hellions will grill any zealots. thors are also amazing supplywise. they only cost 6 suppley which is 3 zealots. the only real good response to thors are air units. voids will own them even more after the next patch and also bcs will eventually lose to void+ht.
Have you actually ever tried to use thors against protoss (other than in the 1-2 thor push) ? Well, i have, and i tell you it just doesn't work if the protoss either gets a lot of lots, a couple immortals or void rays. Even Collosi work quite well against thors due to their superior range and speed. Also notice that if you get thors, you lose every bit of mobility you have. You can no longer dodge storms as if you do so, your thors lag behind and get easily picked off.
And neither the strike cannon, nor emp and hellions are an adequate answer help your thors against zealots. The cannon only hits one unit (and if you do it to a zealot, you do less dps than with your autoattack), emp only takes away 1/3 of the zealots hp and hellions are only good against zealots if you can kite them (which you can't since your thors are too slow). The only good option you have to protect your thors against zealots are marines (which die instantly to storm or collossi).
Also note that by going heavy thor, you cannot afford to get as much vikings, medivacs or ghosts as you might need.
If you think that going thors against toss lategame is viable, please provide a replay which actually shows this. I can only tell you that i have tried numerous times and failed miserably. I actually won a few times with mech in TvP lategame, but with tanks, never with thors.
no i havent tried thors myself because im toss^^ immortals just die to the canon, pls no discussion, yes, you can lift them up with phoenices but srsly, that wont happen in a real game, if he does, hes gosu. and viking thor is gasintensive, but not more than voidrays, its pretty even. and you dont need the hellions to burn every zealot to crisps intantly, but they help. i cant help you out with a replay, because i stopped using hts ages ago, after i met some terrans, that really knew how to hit emps. and collossi only have 2 range more and do pretty much no damage to thors. you can just look at the thor stats and be amazed. just compare him to the marauder: thor rauder (stimmed) 300 200 100 25 ----> 3-4rauders 47 dps 30-40 vs light 60-80 vs armored range 7 6 400hp 300-400 massive not massive (forcefields!)
thors are less affected by storms or guardian shields, can walk down forcefields, have the canon (which is better than concussive imo) and dont lose dps during the fight like 4 marauders, because they die one after another, dont need to be stimmed.
again, this is pure theorie, but i dont see, why its better to make marauders. yes, they can kite and are faster. i mean, marauders suck even more vs zealots and they can be trapped by forcefields, which is the other toss spell terrans are complaining about.
and really, if you dont like the thor, learn to micro your ghosts. if you dont make a mistake, you win every battle vs templars, and even if your rauder catch one storm, just retreat and let your medis do the job. and again, if thors dont work for you, try tanks as you said. you can be pretty confident, that there is a counter, and propably even a few, just try stuff out.
Just stop it. Listen to what Lurk says, he is right and I agree with him as a terran player. We all respect your opinion on Thors, but we think that your opinion is flawed as marauders are really better than Thors in reality, due to the mobility synergy in SC2 terran.
You admitted that you didn't play Terran and never used a Thor before, so your statistics and theory craft shouldn't take precedent over our tried and true advice. (Not to belittle you, just pointing this out so that newbies don't get mislead).
Plus, the lines in bold - it doesn't matter that all your HTs got EMPed, a decent Toss will warp in 3 more HTs with amulets into the battlefield (with nearby pylon/warp prism) and voila! 3 storms available while Terran are stuck on 0 energy for further EMPs. Storms don't have to do maximum damage - they just need to chase your army out of position and let the conventional units pawn the terran. Forcefields will greatly help in this aspect. Ghosts can only lessen the impact of Toss spells (less storms and less FF being casted), not totally cancel it.
why would terran be stuck at 0 energy when toss warps in 3 more hts? better bring some extra ghosts next time then So often I see terrans being greedy when it comes to ghosts vs templars.
1) Ghost are more expensive 2) They need to walk to battle 3) Toss can go Chargelot Templar, meaning all his gas is to Templar 4) Terran has to make Medivacs which are 100 a pop and die to FeedBack 5) HT warp in is instant and Ghost Feedback is annoying
The fact that you said to just bring more Ghost shows how ignorant you are to the match up. Its not whether you should have brought more, its whether or not you could have brought more, and alot of times you cant. Not to mention Ghosts take forever to make and for every Ghost thats 1 less key Marauder. Since ghost take AGES to Train.
Like in BW Bio once that Templar Splash kicks in is useless(Without Gosu Micro). Blizz needs to buff the Mech options.
The fact that they need to walk is the reason you overcompensate in the first place. A lot of terran say they lose even when they emp every HT because of new warp ins/amulet etc. So why not bring more ghosts so you are able to deal with the new warpins. First you say toss can go chargelot templar and later you are talking about missing that key marauder. This doesnt make sense. Marauders suck against chargelots. A ghost would most certainly do more damage or prevent more damage Ghosts take 40 seconds to build, HT warp cd is 45 seconds. HT warp in is nearly instant and if your ghosts get feedbacked you have been outplayed. Ghosts cost 100 minerals more but late game gas is usualy the limiting factor. And this 100 extra mineral cost can easily pay for itself if you hit more than 1 HT or some sentries. And yes a lot of times you could have brought extra ghosts. Also it is quite obvious that you have to take advantage of the ghosts range advantage.
you know... some terran players are actually quite good at the matchup and understand it. Maybe instead of whining about balance you should spend the same amount of time studying Jinro, Nama, or Sjow
jesus people, stop complaining about warpins so much. maybe actually kill pylons that are around the map? like duh? i see way too many complaints about warpins -.-
On December 30 2010 04:27 travis wrote: jesus people, stop complaining about warpins so much. maybe actually kill pylons that are around the map? like duh? i see way too many complaints about warpins -.-
the more you complain about it, the more likely blizzard will remove it from the game.
LOL yea right.
why the hell are terrans bitching about pvt just mass mauraders (jokes)
On December 30 2010 04:27 travis wrote: jesus people, stop complaining about warpins so much. maybe actually kill pylons that are around the map? like duh? i see way too many complaints about warpins -.-
lol well to be fair to them travis do you know how hard it is to find every single pylon around the map especially on maps like shakuras and metal. There's just so many sneaky places to hide pylons.
While I don't admire all the Terran whining I think what you said is kinda dumb the ability to warp in units anywhere on the map instantly regardless of balance is such a strong ability I'd be surprised if nobody complained about it.
Has anyone tried going 3 starport banshee's after they get their third for a while? If you get cloack as well(or emp the banshee's) it can work really well I think, I dont have any replays as most of my tvp's dont get into the late game but when I do I always do that and it works quite well imo ^^
On December 30 2010 04:27 travis wrote: jesus people, stop complaining about warpins so much. maybe actually kill pylons that are around the map? like duh? i see way too many complaints about warpins -.-
lol well to be fair to them travis do you know how hard it is to find every single pylon around the map especially on maps like shakuras and metal. There's just so many sneaky places to hide pylons.
not THAT hard, the people complaining about it just aren't very good
do you know how hard it is to kill a planetary fortress? hurp durp durp scvs auto repairing allins with mules to boost economy hurp durp durp
hey look an ability that defines the protoss race in sc2, lets all whine about it over and over even though it's completely possible to deal with it by playing better
honestly, i wouldn't mock people if they were actually discussing strategy rather than just coming in and saying [X IS TOO GOOD]
On December 30 2010 04:27 travis wrote: jesus people, stop complaining about warpins so much. maybe actually kill pylons that are around the map? like duh? i see way too many complaints about warpins -.-
lol well to be fair to them travis do you know how hard it is to find every single pylon around the map especially on maps like shakuras and metal. There's just so many sneaky places to hide pylons.
not THAT hard, the people complaining about it just aren't very good
do you know how hard it is to kill a planetary fortress? hurp durp durp scvs auto repairing allins with mules to boost economy hurp durp durp
hey look an ability that defines the protoss race in sc2, lets all whine about it over and over even though it's completely possible to deal with it by playing better
honestly, i wouldn't mock people if they were actually discussing strategy rather than just coming in and saying [X IS TOO GOOD]
Well to defend the whiny Terrans a bit the thing is Terran macro aside from being simpler with MBS is pretty much the same as BW. We have the Mule but that money boost a lot of the times only helps us to compete with the macro boosts of the other races. Zerg now have an extra 4 larva with the queen and protoss has chrono boost (Which is available from the very beginning unlike terrans and zergs macro boosts). The warp-in on top of the Chrono boost is difficult to handle as a simple 100 mineral investment in a pylon automatically creates somewhat of a beach-head right outside your base and then they put them all over the map.
When playing against Terran and Zerg you only have to scout expansions and army position and tech. against protoss you have to scout the above PLUS every single inch of the map for pylons?
I don't think it's imbalance but i think this is where everyone here is coming from on their hatred of warp-in.
they can't warp in an entire army, you know. if they aren't in your base the worst you have to worry about is a small counter attack
which is a time when not having warp in is actually nice because you'll probably have a handful of units in or near your base no matter where your army is at.
so no you don't need to search for every pylon, just in and around your base and when you take an expo.
On December 30 2010 04:27 travis wrote: jesus people, stop complaining about warpins so much. maybe actually kill pylons that are around the map? like duh? i see way too many complaints about warpins -.-
the complaint about warp-in is that you can have a storm and/or feedback, and likely many of them, at any point in your bases within 5 seconds. when defending drops (which is what any terran will be trying to do to get an economic advantage), there is no longer such thing as "being out of position".
On December 30 2010 04:27 travis wrote: jesus people, stop complaining about warpins so much. maybe actually kill pylons that are around the map? like duh? i see way too many complaints about warpins -.-
the complaint about warp-in is that you can have a storm and/or feedback, and likely many of them, at any point in your bases within 5 seconds. when defending drops (which is what any terran will be trying to do to get an economic advantage), there is no longer such thing as "being out of position".
so what?
even 2 templars still won't instantly stop a drop, u need more than that
if P wants to play the complaining game then they can say "well terran can just put up a sensor tower and they know u are dropping before u even freaking get there".
yes, amulet warpins are very good. yes, they make terran drops easier to stop (THANK GOD....)
but a lot of terrans need to learn to control their armies better late game, i watch huk's stream and i've seen him lose on even economic footing with amulet storm simply because his opponent had awesome control(albeit i haven't seen this often... but i don't often even see huk get storm, he seems to go collossus much more)
spread your units out, use emps, stutter micro with marauders
im not saying it's easy but there's a lot of attacks terran can do that is ridiculously hard to fight off as well
Protoss get to warp in because otherwise they are incredibly immobile. Ever try to defend against mutas with stalkers? Watching them go in single file through your buildings while you lose 30 probes is one of the saddest things to see in Starcraft 2.
Oh, what's that? They're attacking my third? Let me grab my zealots, immortals, colossi, and high templars. I'll be there in... *checks watch* ... about an hour. And unlike terran, our bases don't defend themselves for a low, low cost.
Every race has some advantage over other races for which they trade off with disadvantages.
That video is really old in starcraft 2 terms, you understand that, right? Back from around when gsl 2 was a few rounds in and all the protoss were eliminated...
On December 30 2010 01:18 dust7 wrote: so, no one here acknowledging that blizzard already said P>T in lategame because of storms?
maybe, and this is just anothter possible answer, the reason why protoss wins the lategame, is because terran always is at a disadvantage reaching the endstage, because they went for some midgame attack.
I'm red, opponent is blue. That is the army value chart.
See that huge advantage I have going into late game?
See how I've had that advantage the whole game?
Yeah, that arrow points to storms, not even good ones, I was even playing bio/mech and all he had to do was just storm more when I dodged a storm, and storm more on my mech to kill it.
Notice how you and your opponent's lines stay parallel after your big army build up around 800 - always about the same distance from each other. If you are both macroing, but you are pumping army and he's teching, you need to do more damage so that your advantage keeps growing. If your opponent is playing defensively and getting higher tech, you're losing advantage by just staying equal in army size with them.
1. I'm not staying equal in army size with him, I have 35% more food than him. 2. By saying I need to stop him from getting tech, and not seeing that HE WON THE BATTLE NOT BECAUSE OF GOOD PLAY, ARMY SIZE, OR WHATEVER, BUT ONLY STORM, you're admitting that storm is imbalanced.
On December 30 2010 11:20 Resistentialism wrote: That video is really old in starcraft 2 terms, you understand that, right? Back from around when gsl 2 was a few rounds in and all the protoss were eliminated...
so you attempt to invalidate it based off the fact that it is older yet current to the current patch and also point to older GSL season2 results where protoss played badly while ignoring GSL season 3 results?
Oh my god. This thread is a repeat of the billion and a half broodwar threads that popped up with the same title. And that game was balanced.
Just because you get free wins against zerg doesnt mean it needs to be as easy against protoss.
Besides, I watched a game by qxc the other day where the protoss had 10 templar, and qxc had about 10 ghosts. The toss got 1 storm off. By a templar who was warped in late. After his army had been decimated. qxc hit every other templar with an emp, and rofflestomped the battle.
On December 30 2010 11:38 Two_DoWn wrote: Oh my god. This thread is a repeat of the billion and a half broodwar threads that popped up with the same title. And that game was balanced.
Just because you get free wins against zerg doesnt mean it needs to be as easy against protoss.
Besides, I watched a game by qxc the other day where the protoss had 10 templar, and qxc had about 10 ghosts. The toss got 1 storm off. By a templar who was warped in late. After his army had been decimated. qxc hit every other templar with an emp, and rofflestomped the battle.
Did you also watch the games (QXC's stream 2 days ago) where QXC lost to Mini 0-3 because QXC tried to play a macro game but was decimated by HT and carriers?
Same story against ppgBubbles (my teamate in All4One Gaming). QXC loses 3 times in macro games (carriers and HT again) then proceeds to win twice with marine/scv all-ins.
This is QXC, whom most people consider to be the best Terran in NA.
On December 30 2010 11:20 Resistentialism wrote: That video is really old in starcraft 2 terms, you understand that, right? Back from around when gsl 2 was a few rounds in and all the protoss were eliminated...
Yeah, even when protoss were losing in GSL, Blizzard said TvP was protoss favored. I see the point you're trying to make there..
Ghosts are really effective vs HT that and the HT is the most immobile unit after the tank in the entire game . You only need 5 units and scout with scans . You need the following units : Marine Marauder Medivac Vikings and Ghost . You need to add vikings and ghosts based on the number of collosus u see and the numer of HT and remember nothing can kill u on the high ground in LT try to search for spots with a ramp when fighting protoss . Protoss can never never win when ur fighting with a decent army in ur base especially with the planetary fortress . You can micro out of storms and only take about 20 damage with ur units with practice making HT useless ( unless ur on a suck spot on the map , but just split to avoid damage and use ghosts EMP's ) . Terran is clearly favored since ghosts are more mobile then HT and do more damage overall then HT can . The 100 shields drained is ridiculles and cancels any immortal play , carriers are a joke since vikings can kite them endlessly if the terran ever faced the expensive 120 second build time fat useless things .
Carrier and Battlecruiser are the worst unit by far . Mothership is also really bad but atleast u can do a cheese strategy with it . ( u can't with other units ) .
The idea that one particular race dominates this match-up past a certain time in the game is pure speculation, nothing more. Any anecdotal evidence people are listing here is more likely tied to current metagame trends than any inherent racial limitations. On the other hand, there are plenty of high-level replays available (many listed earlier in this thread) showing effective late-game combinations for both sides.
If you are having trouble with this matchup, the best thing you can do is get involved in some brainstorming discussion looking at ways to adapt to the current metagame and counter the most prevalent tactics. Don't both discussing it here though; this thread's currently nothing but idiots posting balance whines and flaming other posters, and probably should have been closed long ago.
On December 30 2010 12:05 metalsonic wrote: Ghosts are really effective vs HT that and the HT is the most immobile unit after the tank in the entire game . You only need 5 units and scout with scans . You need the following units : Marine Marauder Medivac Vikings and Ghost . You need to add vikings and ghosts based on the number of collosus u see and the numer of HT and remember nothing can kill u on the high ground in LT try to search for spots with a ramp when fighting protoss . Protoss can never never win when ur fighting with a decent army in ur base especially with the planetary fortress . You can micro out of storms and only take about 20 damage with ur units with practice making HT useless ( unless ur on a suck spot on the map , but just split to avoid damage and use ghosts EMP's ) . Terran is clearly favored since ghosts are more mobile then HT and do more damage overall then HT can . The 100 shields drained is ridiculles and cancels any immortal play , carriers are a joke since vikings can kite them endlessly if the terran ever faced the expensive 120 second build time fat useless things .
Carrier and Battlecruiser are the worst unit by far . Mothership is also really bad but atleast u can do a cheese strategy with it . ( u can't with other units ) .
Storms kill EMP doesn't. Also remember that Terran units aren't as HP heavy as Protoss units. 1 Storm kills a Marine.
Vikings can't kite Carriers. The range of a carrier is 14.
Just wanted to go back on that ServyOa game on XNC, he didn't use his ghosts very well. And when he had like 1.6k minerals, he could've made more scvs and rax at other expansions. Or even make bunkers in the central area where the Protoss could break through. He had the entire top side of the map and a lot of money in the bank. He could've otherwise won regardless of what Mana had gone for, had he made better use of his resources. When you're 2 bases ahead, it's pretty hard to lose..
I'm a random player for what it's worth. I'm going to blame both sides, but these aren't set in stone. But at least you'll have an idea of where I stand though.
In terms of concepts, warping seems to be the imbalance. You can bring your units in anywhere there's a pylon or warp prism, almost instantly, AND have the production time reduced by 10 seconds. I thought the warpgate would've had a trade-off with the gateway. For example, warpgates having a +10 second increase in build time. The opposite of its current effect. It'd make sense wouldn't it? You get your units immediately and possibly anywhere on the map, in exchange for a longer cooldown time. At least gateways would then have a purpose.
Protoss units are far too mobile. Their slower units can be warped in from anywhere as well. A colossus is like a reaper and a siege tank combined. Most protoss players don't do this, but did you know you can bring a warp prism with your main army to give yourself a huge advantage?
Looking on the other side, Thors and Siege tanks just don't seem to be very viable in the late game. They are just too immobile. Siege tanks specifically, they die so easily to everything. So you end up going with bio and starport tech units. And protoss are now learning how to deal with it relatively easy.
A lot of terrans don't go hellions against templar tech, don't know why, considering how effective they are. They're mineral only, so you have lots of gas for ravens to detect and armor-killing units. Which you won't necessarily need since their HTs cost so much gas. You'll only ever see zealots accompany them.
In terms of concepts, warping seems to be the imbalance. You can bring your units in anywhere there's a pylon or warp prism, almost instantly, AND have the production time reduced by 10 seconds. I thought the warpgate would've had a trade-off with the gateway. For example, warpgates having a +10 second increase in build time. The opposite of its current effect. It'd make sense wouldn't it? You get your units immediately and possibly anywhere on the map, in exchange for a longer cooldown time. At least gateways would then have a purpose.
Does inability to queue count as a "trade-off"?
It means it takes extra attention to make the units: if you forget it for 10 seconds your units have been delayed by 10 seconds. Also, reinforcements mid-combat or other mid-army-manouvering requires you to switch your focus to making units. That may mean going back to your base if you have no nearby pylons. Mid-combat. I have lost games because I messed up the unit building by warping them in at wrong time (in other words: I switched to warping them in at wrong time), warping them in too late or at wrong positions.
I always forget production cycles. Usually less in early game, but the more combat-intensive the game is and the longer the game lasts the more likely it is that I forget to build units simply because I can't queue them and build them when I see it fit and have time for it.
Also means that protoss has to be very aware of the warp gate cooldowns, it becomes more fun if they are out-of-sync with each other.
This match up is not worth waiting too long and playing a macro game for, there is no effective terran unit composition vs. the late toss army then, unless you managed to get 2 bases ahead at least.
I feel when terran start going mech more the protoss strat is going to have to change, from a toss view point i have seen bio ball almost every game vs T sense the launch and that is a LONG time to learn to counter a mix of units. When mech is thrown in it gives me a big problem, requires more micro on my part to make sure my HT dont die before siege gets to them. If you are having trouble with late game toss i say make some thors and tanks, it usually beats me.
Killing > Temporarily damaging shields for 33%-50% of total HP.
Toss units on average have much higher HP than terran units, and shields regenerate very quickly, which is why Storm is much more devastating than EMP will ever be.
also keep in mind that emp doesnt stack at all. 2 storms equals roughly twice as much ownage. a second emp on units that had been emp´d some seconds before is not doing anything. so emp, while doing impressive dam figures, does not kill and can only be used for damage once on each unit whereas storm kills and can be used several times in a row on the same ball of units.
basically, 2-3 ghosts are always worth it lategame for their dam, but unless u can catch many templars before they throw down their storms, more ghosts than needed for "area coverage of his unit ball" are a waste of money and supply. and this is very very hard to achieve against spread out templar, in particular it is very hard to predict the amount of templar he is gonna have. as u have to preemptively build the ghosts if u want to emp all templar before they storm.
On December 30 2010 16:12 Black Gun wrote: also keep in mind that emp doesnt stack at all. 2 storms equals roughly twice as much ownage. a second emp on units that had been emp´d some seconds before is not doing anything. so emp, while doing impressive dam figures, does not kill and can only be used for damage once on each unit whereas storm kills and can be used several times in a row on the same ball of units.
basically, 2-3 ghosts are always worth it lategame for their dam, but unless u can catch many templars before they throw down their storms, more ghosts than needed for "area coverage of his unit ball" are a waste of money and supply. and this is very very hard to achieve against spread out templar, in particular it is very hard to predict the amount of templar he is gonna have. as u have to preemptively build the ghosts if u want to emp all templar before they storm.
I hate the typical EMP vs Storm debate but this is actually a good point. But screw ghosts i just use my hellions to roast HTs. even if you do nail a few HTs with EMP they can still become Archons which may be bad units but they can take a punch and act a really good damage takers. why not just kill the bastards.
Why are so many terrans discounting hellions? They're extremely effective versus HT in any mix, and a direct counter to zealot/templar, one of the most common endgame tactics. I can only remember three times on the ladder I've seen someone use this, and I got rolled every time. Those things are so damn fast - they run up behind my army, one shot all my HT, and run away laughing and blaring loud obnoxious music out the window. They're hardy enough to soak up storms and ensure that most if not all of them will reach their target, unless the protoss has been extremely mindful defending them.
I really think mech is the future of TvP late game, with a smattering of marines for extra DPS/anti-air, and of course ghosts. Good enough hellion control should protect the marines from storms, and the tanks clean up everything except for chargelots, which get roasted by hellions anyway. Banshees and ravens make this even scarier.
On December 30 2010 16:35 giuocob wrote: Why are so many terrans discounting hellions? They're extremely effective versus HT in any mix, and a direct counter to zealot/templar, one of the most common endgame tactics. I can only remember three times on the ladder I've seen someone use this, and I got rolled every time. Those things are so damn fast - they run up behind my army, one shot all my HT, and run away laughing and blaring loud obnoxious music out the window. They're hardy enough to soak up storms and ensure that most if not all of them will reach their target, unless the protoss has been extremely mindful defending them.
I really think mech is the future of TvP late game, with a smattering of marines for extra DPS/anti-air, and of course ghosts. Good enough hellion control should protect the marines from storms, and the tanks clean up everything except for chargelots, which get roasted by hellions anyway. Banshees and ravens make this even scarier.
I've been doing a lot of Mech vs protoss and i just made a thread with 10 of my reps in it doin mech and while i think it's very very strong it's not the future. those early stim/banshee/raven timings are just too good not to do. Maybe if some miracle patch made the tank 100 gas or made them do 55 vs armored instead of 50 so you only had to wait for +1 instead of +2 weapons to actually start being really potent. But I'm not waiting on any patches Imma stick with my Mech as is but doing anything with banshees and ghosts is usually too costly and going plain mech just works out better unless you scout that he is going SUPER heavy immortal then cutting some tanks for ghosts is probably wise.
On December 30 2010 16:35 giuocob wrote: Why are so many terrans discounting hellions? They're extremely effective versus HT in any mix, and a direct counter to zealot/templar, one of the most common endgame tactics. I can only remember three times on the ladder I've seen someone use this, and I got rolled every time. Those things are so damn fast - they run up behind my army, one shot all my HT, and run away laughing and blaring loud obnoxious music out the window. They're hardy enough to soak up storms and ensure that most if not all of them will reach their target, unless the protoss has been extremely mindful defending them.
I really think mech is the future of TvP late game, with a smattering of marines for extra DPS/anti-air, and of course ghosts. Good enough hellion control should protect the marines from storms, and the tanks clean up everything except for chargelots, which get roasted by hellions anyway. Banshees and ravens make this even scarier.
Chargelots devastate Mech and Hellions even with Blue Flame can't kill them quickly enough. 150 HP charging on a Tank means a dead tank as the other tanks will shoot at the Chargelot, splash damaging the Tank with bonused damage. Thors end up getting surrounded and dying quite quickly afer that. Hellions with Blue Flame and +3 still need 6 shots to kill an unupgraded Chargelot. They may be fast but with only 90 health they still die quite quickly. Not that I've come across pure Chargelot/Storm builds, there are usually plenty of Sentries and Stalkers in the mix to shoot any Hellions.
I only had time to watch the first replay...but it seemed to me that the terran showed poor decision making there.
1. He didn't apply any pressure on the protoss, which let them tech with impunity. Back when you could count on protoss going robo, bio was very safe, but now that the matchup is becoming more varied pure MMM isn't as dependable as it once was. 2. He wasted OC energy on scans when he really needed mules to counteract chronoprobes. 3. He wasted resources on 4 vikings that were basically giant paperweights because the toss had no air units. They took out one observer, which was nice, but that advantage was not built upon by using cloak. I guess you could say they discouraged collosi production...but that doesn't help very much because the templar alternative hurt more. 4. He kept his entire army bunched up in one tight ball, making it vulnerable to AoE, instead of attacking on multiple fronts and spreading out concussive shell shots 5. No ghosts
I don't know how people can go bio in TvP without ghosts. I worked this out a couple days ago.
Production Cost Ghost: Requires Supply Depot(100/0/30)+Barracks(150/0/60)+Techlab(50/25/25)+Ghost Academy(150/50/40) = 450/75/155. HT: Requires Pylon(100/0/25)+Gateway(150/0/65)+CyberCore(150/0/50)+Twilight Council(150/100/50)+Templar Archives(150/200/50) = 700/300/240 Difference: 250/225/85 in favor of Ghost
Upgrade Cost Ghost: Moebis Reactor, 100/100/80. HT: Warpgate tech (50/50/140)+Psionic Storm (200/200/110)+Amulet(150/150/100) = 400/400/350. If everything is chronoboosted, total time to research is lowered to ~233. Difference: 300/300/153 in favor of Ghost. <---assumes chronoboost
Unit Cost Ghost: (150/150/40/2) HT Unit: (50/150/45/2) <--- assumes warpgate Difference: 100/0/-5/0 in favor of High Templar
Primary Spell EMP: 75 energy, 100 instant shield damage vs everything but Stalkers&Dark Templars(80%), Phoenix (60%), Zealots (50%), High Templars (40%). Sentries (40%), Probes(20%). Also deals 100 instant energy damage, making it 100% more efficient vs HT, Sentry, Mothership, . Removes Cloak and Hullucination for 10 sec. 10 range, 2 radius, no cooldown. Psi Storm: 75 energy, 80 damage over 4 sec vs everything. 9 range, 1.5 radius, 3 sec cooldown. Difference: Psi storm is superior vs workers, EMP is superior vs casters and high speed units (I'd say around speed > 2.5)
If you're going bio vs T, all you really need is 200 gas. You don't even need the +25 energy like HTs do simply because you can get them out much faster to build up energy.
On December 30 2010 01:18 dust7 wrote: so, no one here acknowledging that blizzard already said P>T in lategame because of storms?
maybe, and this is just anothter possible answer, the reason why protoss wins the lategame, is because terran always is at a disadvantage reaching the endstage, because they went for some midgame attack.
I'm red, opponent is blue. That is the army value chart.
See that huge advantage I have going into late game?
See how I've had that advantage the whole game?
Yeah, that arrow points to storms, not even good ones, I was even playing bio/mech and all he had to do was just storm more when I dodged a storm, and storm more on my mech to kill it.
Notice how you and your opponent's lines stay parallel after your big army build up around 800 - always about the same distance from each other. If you are both macroing, but you are pumping army and he's teching, you need to do more damage so that your advantage keeps growing. If your opponent is playing defensively and getting higher tech, you're losing advantage by just staying equal in army size with them.
1. I'm not staying equal in army size with him, I have 35% more food than him. 2. By saying I need to stop him from getting tech, and not seeing that HE WON THE BATTLE NOT BECAUSE OF GOOD PLAY, ARMY SIZE, OR WHATEVER, BUT ONLY STORM, you're admitting that storm is imbalanced.
seriously your graph shows nothing at all. better post a replay edit my bad i bumped this terrible whine thread, it should get locked
On December 30 2010 09:03 ThorIsHere wrote: Protoss get to warp in because otherwise they are incredibly immobile. Ever try to defend against mutas with stalkers? Watching them go in single file through your buildings while you lose 30 probes is one of the saddest things to see in Starcraft 2.
Oh, what's that? They're attacking my third? Let me grab my zealots, immortals, colossi, and high templars. I'll be there in... *checks watch* ... about an hour. And unlike terran, our bases don't defend themselves for a low, low cost.
Every race has some advantage over other races for which they trade off with disadvantages.
Yeah because a planetary fortress can totally shoot air units.... oh wait it can't.
hi all im a protoss player on NA atm 2400 diamond and from the protoss perspective ive found that terran pushes early are common and to be be frank with sentrys are easy to defend i find it difficult when the terran doesnt attack early giving me the advantage and choses to sit back and macro hard with tanks mixed with banshees and a raven then maruders with ghosts with marines filling in the rest ive found that my win rate against terran bio ball is without bragging about 80% where if the terran sits back macros and gets mech it becomes a lot more even its hard for me as a toss player generally cos banshees in an army have sick dps with and tanks u dnt want to run into until charge comes around and a few immortals to take the first hits. with the thor added in too void rays also become hard to use and high templar dnt do as much damage as u like. i would recommend for any terran who is seriously having trouble with protoss to try to create a mech build too ( not a thor rush or banshee rush tho cos they are just as easy to beat) but one where u can defend comfortably expand and macro hard i know from experience when that first wave doesnt come i get behind in bases and find it really hard to deal with lots of tanks thors banshees ravens in the end i try to feedback the raven/banshees charge and immortal blast the ground and phenox/stalker the air units (depending on gas). i hope this has helped in some way good luck hope you terrans find something cool so i can evolve my gameplay too :D gl hf :D
On December 30 2010 19:31 kNightLite wrote: I only had time to watch the first replay...but it seemed to me that the terran showed poor decision making there.
1. He didn't apply any pressure on the protoss, which let them tech with impunity. Back when you could count on protoss going robo, bio was very safe, but now that the matchup is becoming more varied pure MMM isn't as dependable as it once was. 2. He wasted OC energy on scans when he really needed mules to counteract chronoprobes. 3. He wasted resources on 4 vikings that were basically giant paperweights because the toss had no air units. They took out one observer, which was nice, but that advantage was not built upon by using cloak. I guess you could say they discouraged collosi production...but that doesn't help very much because the templar alternative hurt more. 4. He kept his entire army bunched up in one tight ball, making it vulnerable to AoE, instead of attacking on multiple fronts and spreading out concussive shell shots 5. No ghosts
I don't know how people can go bio in TvP without ghosts. I worked this out a couple days ago.
Production Cost Ghost: Requires Supply Depot(100/0/30)+Barracks(150/0/60)+Techlab(50/25/25)+Ghost Academy(150/50/40) = 450/75/155. HT: Requires Pylon(100/0/25)+Gateway(150/0/65)+CyberCore(150/0/50)+Twilight Council(150/100/50)+Templar Archives(150/200/50) = 700/300/240 Difference: 250/225/85 in favor of Ghost
Upgrade Cost Ghost: Moebis Reactor, 100/100/80. HT: Warpgate tech (50/50/140)+Psionic Storm (200/200/110)+Amulet(150/150/100) = 400/400/350. If everything is chronoboosted, total time to research is lowered to ~233. Difference: 300/300/153 in favor of Ghost. <---assumes chronoboost
Unit Cost Ghost: (150/150/40/2) HT Unit: (50/150/45/2) <--- assumes warpgate Difference: 100/0/-5/0 in favor of High Templar
Primary Spell EMP: 75 energy, 100 instant shield damage vs everything but Stalkers&Dark Templars(80%), Phoenix (60%), Zealots (50%), High Templars (40%). Sentries (40%), Probes(20%). Also deals 100 instant energy damage, making it 100% more efficient vs HT, Sentry, Mothership, . Removes Cloak and Hullucination for 10 sec. 10 range, 2 radius, no cooldown. Psi Storm: 75 energy, 80 damage over 4 sec vs everything. 9 range, 1.5 radius, 3 sec cooldown. Difference: Psi storm is superior vs workers, EMP is superior vs casters and high speed units (I'd say around speed > 2.5)
If you're going bio vs T, all you really need is 200 gas. You don't even need the +25 energy like HTs do simply because you can get them out much faster to build up energy.
Theorycrafting can only tell you so much. You're completely neglecting the dynamics of the matchup itself as well as several key aspects.
You cannot just simply compare the costs and say ghosts are cheaper to tech too and can be out earlier. While this is true in inself, the dynamics of the matchup doesn't allow you to do that. Going for early ghosts is NOT a safe opening/bo. Anything from a 4gate to standard xgate/robo can be very difficult or impossible to deal with with this build. Going for an early ghost is a very serious investment and it WILL delay other key techs like stim or starport tech. You can deal with early HTs without ghosts, but not having stim or starport tech in time will autolose you a lot of games.
In a similar fashion to protoss having to have robo tech at a certain time (to counteract cloakshees), terran needs to have stim and starport tech at a certain time (to deal with mass gateway and collossus respectively).
Going for ghosts in the midgame is almost always a good decision. However, you're probably better off getting 2-3 ghosts than a whole army of them. Because unlike templars, there is a critical mass of ghosts after which point they don't bring additional benefit. 2-3 emps is often sufficient to emp the bulk of the protoss army. I've often had the problem that i got too many ghosts (8-10) and then i didn't have enough units to actually kill the shieldless protoss army (yes, i've lost 200:200 supply fights vs protoss with him having no shields or energy).
So please, to all of those protoss claiming "you had too few ghosts" or "of course, if i have 10 temps and you only have 3 ghosts, i'll win - you need to get an equal amount of ghosts". It doesn't work that way. Unlike the templar for protoss, the ghost is not a main army unit for terran but rather a support unit (albeit a really powerful and efficient one). However, just like getting too many vikings can cost you the game, getting too many ghosts will do the same. I was never in a situation where i needed more than 4, maybe 5 ghosts.
The fundamental problem is that you have to hit the toss army with emp BEFORE the actual battle. This is often very difficult to do and requires and obscene amount of awareness and game sense. Of course protoss players will argue along the lines of "how hard can it be to hit a protoss ball with a 2 radius emp with a cloaked unit" but this is actually quite difficult to time correctly and it is also the main reason why ghosts are rarely used to their full potential.
If i emp the toss army too early, he can just walk away and regen shields, energy and warp in fresh units. If i emp the army too late, he will get off a few storms before i shut down the templars. And this is assuming that i even get my ghosts into a good position near the protoss army before the battle.
TL;DR: Ghosts ARE a very good unit and can be obtained quite easily and quickly. However, ghosts are a SUPPORT unit and you should never get too many of them. Also, using ghosts to their full potential is very difficult and requires a lot of micro, awareness and game sense (something you cannot expect from <3k players).
On December 30 2010 21:26 Stallion wrote: hi all im a protoss player on NA atm 2400 diamond and from the protoss perspective ive found that terran pushes early are common and to be be frank with sentrys are easy to defend i find it difficult when the terran doesnt attack early giving me the advantage and choses to sit back and macro hard with tanks mixed with banshees and a raven then maruders with ghosts with marines filling in the rest ive found that my win rate against terran bio ball is without bragging about 80% where if the terran sits back macros and gets mech it becomes a lot more even its hard for me as a toss player generally cos banshees in an army have sick dps with and tanks u dnt want to run into until charge comes around and a few immortals to take the first hits. with the thor added in too void rays also become hard to use and high templar dnt do as much damage as u like. i would recommend for any terran who is seriously having trouble with protoss to try to create a mech build too ( not a thor rush or banshee rush tho cos they are just as easy to beat) but one where u can defend comfortably expand and macro hard i know from experience when that first wave doesnt come i get behind in bases and find it really hard to deal with lots of tanks thors banshees ravens in the end i try to feedback the raven/banshees charge and immortal blast the ground and phenox/stalker the air units (depending on gas). i hope this has helped in some way good luck hope you terrans find something cool so i can evolve my gameplay too :D gl hf :D
void rays own thors so bad its not even funny, a thor takes like 30 shots to kill a VR and a void can kill a thor in like what 2 seconds ?
Okay evey-protoss defending the race please GTFO out from this thread. Isnt it time to discuss builds that actually may work v protoss? From my perspective i dont dare to make a normal expand nowadays. Cuz if i see a protoss on 1 base i know i lose if i even try to expand. And if i dont.. meeh i may just barely survive.
in a state of the game podcast incontrol said that once protoss gets the amulet upgrade they have a99% chance to win the game. Nony also said in one of those podcasts that tankplay is easily shutdown by immortalzealotstalker (ht). Ive seen other terrans post which were around 3100 pts saying that once protoss gets ht with amulet they almost always win because carrier+ht is incredibly hard to beat. Another very strong thing is getting immortals as protoss whenyou have +3 attack upgrades because they will 2shot marauders then, so the immortalht zealot combination is almost impossible to beat in lategame (thats what servyoa posted on gamereplays.org
Arguably the best PvT player in the world just had a grueling series which he took 4 - 3. The recent Gisado event had the worlds best Protoss players all-killed. This isn't lowly 2k Diamond or EU 3k. This is the highest level of play, and at that level it sure doesn't look balanced in favor of either. If anything it looks like T has the edge. That's just from what I've seen.
On December 30 2010 22:41 QuantumTheory wrote: Arguably the best PvT player in the world just had a grueling series which he took 4 - 3. The recent Gisado event had the worlds best Protoss players all-killed. This isn't lowly 2k Diamond or EU 3k. This is the highest level of play, and at that level it sure doesn't look balanced in favor of either. If anything it looks like T has the edge. That's just from what I've seen.
That is totally out of the question. As has been stated several times in this thread already, the overall win ratio can be considered even. Some may say that because of this, the matchup is balanced.
Looking closer, however, you can see that almost all terran win are with games <15min and almost all protoss wins are in games that took a lot longer. So the consensus seems to be that terran is favored in the early game and protoss in the late game. Many players (terran and protoss alike) don't find this situation particularly appealing. I think it would greatly benefit the game if both parties in the matchup had similar win chances at all points in the game. This would also result in more macro-oriented play since terran wouldn't try to rush to a win in under 15 minutes.
On December 30 2010 22:41 QuantumTheory wrote: Arguably the best PvT player in the world just had a grueling series which he took 4 - 3. The recent Gisado event had the worlds best Protoss players all-killed. This isn't lowly 2k Diamond or EU 3k. This is the highest level of play, and at that level it sure doesn't look balanced in favor of either. If anything it looks like T has the edge. That's just from what I've seen.
That is totally out of the question. As has been stated several times in this thread already, the overall win ratio can be considered even. Some may say that because of this, the matchup is balanced.
Looking closer, however, you can see that almost all terran win are with games <15min and almost all protoss wins are in games that took a lot longer. So the consensus seems to be that terran is favored in the early game and protoss in the late game. Many players (terran and protoss alike) don't find this situation particularly appealing. I think it would greatly benefit the game if both parties in the matchup had similar win chances at all points in the game. This would also result in more macro-oriented play since terran wouldn't try to rush to a win in under 15 minutes.
I agree, of course. Still, I don't know why this thread is open when both sides have a leg to stand on in the argument of which one is overall the better race. Seems to me we should QQ together on Blizz Forums or something.
On December 30 2010 23:40 QuantumTheory wrote: Still, I don't know why this thread is open when both sides have a leg to stand on in the argument of which one is overall the better race. Seems to me we should QQ together on Blizz Forums or something.
This is because there are still stubborn and biased players on both sides who refuse to admit that T has superior early and P superior late game.
ogsTOP (T) taking out easily ogsMC (P) 4-0 in a bo7. in the 4th game ogsTOP made storm look bad
Yea Top did what terran is supposed to do in the matchup. Expand a lot since you have minerals from mules. Attack in a lot of location at same time to abuse Protoss immobility. Game 4 is an good example of how to play macro terran against storm. Even though storm is good, it takes long to get and before he gets it terran is free to take expo as long as he take in consideration of colossus timing pushes(Top went like 10 vikings every game). He was consistently 30 food ahead of toss at mid/late game.
MC played solid games though 3 and 4. His games kind of reminds me of mine when I play protoss. Always behind on bases because you pay so much on teching.
Terran tend to lose to toss in long games because they just want to macro and get in big battles. Of course that favors toss when all toss does have is a deathball with aoes.
ogsTOP (T) taking out easily ogsMC (P) 4-0 in a bo7. in the 4th game ogsTOP made storm look bad
Yea Top did what terran is supposed to do in the matchup. Expand a lot since you have minerals from mules. Attack in a lot of location at same time to abuse Protoss immobility. Game 4 is an good example of how to play macro terran against storm. Even though storm is good, it takes long to get and before he gets it terran is free to take expo as long as he take in consideration of colossus timing pushes(Top went like 10 vikings every game). He was consistently 30 food ahead of toss at mid/late game.
MC played solid games though 3 and 4. His games kind of reminds me of mine when I play protoss. Always behind on bases because you pay so much on teching.
Terran tend to lose to toss in long games because they just want to macro and get in big battles. Of course that favors toss when all toss does have is a deathball with aoes.
This has been in line with my observations. Terran's #1 priority in TvP is getting up his third base. I'm not convinced that the 4th is needed ASAP but Terran cannot function two basing.
2 months ago every single thread discussing the state of TvP was Protoss favoured saying that Terran need a nerf. 90% of the responses to a thread like this was "Protoss noob L2P hurp durp". Have any of the Terran players with their head up their ass, ever considered that maybe all the toss players finally sucked it up, and got better and learned how to use the units they have. The level of Protoss play as increased because of the way we play, not because of huge imbalances. I'm going to say the same to all the Terran players in this thread, we're learning better ways on how to deal with Terran. It's your turn to do the same, figure out a way to deal with Protoss without whining and bitching about imbalances.
P.S. Since when are carriers an effective late game unit?
ogsTOP (T) taking out easily ogsMC (P) 4-0 in a bo7. in the 4th game ogsTOP made storm look bad
Yea Top did what terran is supposed to do in the matchup. Expand a lot since you have minerals from mules. Attack in a lot of location at same time to abuse Protoss immobility. Game 4 is an good example of how to play macro terran against storm. Even though storm is good, it takes long to get and before he gets it terran is free to take expo as long as he take in consideration of colossus timing pushes(Top went like 10 vikings every game). He was consistently 30 food ahead of toss at mid/late game.
MC played solid games though 3 and 4. His games kind of reminds me of mine when I play protoss. Always behind on bases because you pay so much on teching.
Terran tend to lose to toss in long games because they just want to macro and get in big battles. Of course that favors toss when all toss does have is a deathball with aoes.
This has been in line with my observations. Terran's #1 priority in TvP is getting up his third base. I'm not convinced that the 4th is needed ASAP but Terran cannot function two basing.
Game 4: TOP made it indeed look ridiculously EASY to take multiple bases, to have the supply-advantage and mass production capabilities ready just when toss gets to the amulet. This aside, the funny thing is, game 4 (the only one where Top allowed MC a lategame and didn't crush him in midgame) never looked toss-favoured at all, even after MC had colossi/templar. Although I'm obviously biased, game 4 looked quite balanced in lategame...TOP just had marauder/ghost/medivac/viking, but constantly attacked at multiple locations and (ab)used the higher HP of marauders compared to marines vs storm-tech. I'm really sorry to say this, but TOP didn't do anything fancy at all. Just 2 different attacking groups who constantly did damage and were reinforced instantly due to TOP having the economical advantage that he gained/took at the time where toss couldn't do anything (insufficient colossi-count and templar tech not done yet.) He was the better player and won very well deserved, but he didn't have to play "significantly" better as if to overcome any sorts of supposed "imbalance". Opposed to the performance of eg. fruitdealer in GSL 1 where it was obvious that he had to play like double as good AND get lucky to overcome certain timings.
Game 4: TOP made it indeed look ridiculously EASY to take multiple bases, to have the supply-advantage and mass production capabilities ready just when toss gets to the amulet. This aside, the funny thing is, game 4 (the only one where Top allowed MC a lategame and didn't crush him in midgame) never looked toss-favoured at all, even after MC had colossi/templar. Although I'm obviously biased, game 4 looked quite balanced in lategame...TOP just had marauder/ghost/medivac/viking, but constantly attacked at multiple locations and (ab)used the higher HP of marauders compared to marines vs storm-tech. I'm really sorry to say this, but TOP didn't do anything fancy at all. Just 2 different attacking groups who constantly did damage and were reinforced instantly due to TOP having the economical advantage that he gained/took at the time where toss couldn't do anything (insufficient colossi-count and templar tech not done yet.) He was the better player and won very well deserved, but he didn't have to play "significantly" better as if to overcome any sorts of supposed "imbalance". Opposed to the performance of eg. fruitdealer in GSL 1 where it was obvious that he had to play like double as good AND get lucky to overcome certain timings.
First of all, after watching the games, i was kind of disappointed (i secretly hoped to see some revolutionary way to beat toss lategame ). oGsTOP just played more or less standard bio all the time (except the one on scrap station). However, his execution and multitasking was near flawless and that eventually won him the games.
Also note that in the last game on XC, oGsTOP did NOT win because of how he handled storm. He won because he kept a significant economic advantage throughout the whole game. In every battle after amulet, TOP's bio got crushed to pieces by storm. He simply won because he has insane multitasking and continually dropped MC's expansions to deny his eco. He also did a very good job of constantly trading armies to prevent the toss ball from getting to critical mass.
On December 30 2010 22:22 Ikkuh wrote: in a state of the game podcast incontrol said that once protoss gets the amulet upgrade they have a99% chance to win the game. Nony also said in one of those podcasts that tankplay is easily shutdown by immortalzealotstalker (ht). Ive seen other terrans post which were around 3100 pts saying that once protoss gets ht with amulet they almost always win because carrier+ht is incredibly hard to beat. Another very strong thing is getting immortals as protoss whenyou have +3 attack upgrades because they will 2shot marauders then, so the immortalht zealot combination is almost impossible to beat in lategame (thats what servyoa posted on gamereplays.org
Protoss don't have a 99% chance to win with amulet . Simply no , maybe invest some ghosts to instant un avoidable EMP rounds who drain all psi energy and 100 shields ? EMP is much stronger then storm is for the fact that u can only hurt marauders by 20 hp and that terran can stim away while medivacs are healing . Protoss vs Terran in late game is definitely Terran favored if the terran haves bunkers and planetary fortress in his base . U can't win vs that . You can never break a terran bunker defense of 4 + bunkers since that will require the worst late game unit : immortals and stalkers . On Lost Temple Terran is favored heavely . You Simply can not win a late game vs terran ever on that map . Since if u kill his army when he pushes out he haves an army ready at the ramp u can not see and he snipes away all ur HT and ur done for . Lost Temple is one of those maps that favors terran to the point that the map should be removed .
In every blizzard game Lost Temple has been the worst and most imbalanced maps of them all . In warcraft 3 Human had allmost an automatic win vs Undead and Orc and this was when the game was just out and with the final balance . The map was ridiculles and Blizzard really sucks with their stupid LT map pools . Why do people on TL says the map is so great ?????
TL;DR Terrans are favored late game vs protoss on maps that feature a ramp where they can shoot ur units when u try to break their base . Planetary fortress on the expo may be risky , but it is undefeatable .
On December 31 2010 04:48 metalsonic wrote: Protoss don't have a 99% chance to win with amulet . Simply no , maybe invest some ghosts to instant un avoidable EMP rounds who drain all psi energy and 100 shields ? EMP is much stronger then storm is for the fact that u can only hurt marauders by 20 hp and that terran can stim away while medivacs are healing . Protoss vs Terran in late game is definitely Terran favored if the terran haves bunkers and planetary fortress in his base . U can't win vs that . You can never break a terran bunker defense of 4 + bunkers since that will require the worst late game unit : immortals and stalkers . On Lost Temple Terran is favored heavely . You Simply can not win a late game vs terran ever on that map . Since if u kill his army when he pushes out he haves an army ready at the ramp u can not see and he snipes away all ur HT and ur done for . Lost Temple is one of those maps that favors terran to the point that the map should be removed .
In every blizzard game Lost Temple has been the worst and most imbalanced maps of them all . In warcraft 3 Human had allmost an automatic win vs Undead and Orc and this was when the game was just out and with the final balance . The map was ridiculles and Blizzard really sucks with their stupid LT map pools . Why do people on TL says the map is so great ?????
TL;DR Terrans are favored late game vs protoss on maps that feature a ramp where they can shoot ur units when u try to break their base . Planetary fortress on the expo may be risky , but it is undefeatable .
You are so wrong on so many levels, damn.
1) "EMP is much stronger then storm is for the fact that u can only hurt marauders by 20 hp and that terran can stim away while medivacs are healing " Are you serious? Marines die to 1 storm. Marauders won't die to a storm, but he will need to kite while zealots with legspeed and stalkers are chasing him. Medivacs can't heal while moving, so they will be sniped out really fast. Storm kills an army, EMP doesnt, it's really that simple.
2) Protoss vs Terran in late game is definitely Terran favored if the terran haves bunkers and planetary fortress in his base .Planetary fortresses are good, yes, but you don't need to fight them. The only thing you need to do is kill the terran and move to his production facilities. You just can't recover when zealots and archons are in your main, really not.
A 200/200 terran army WILL lose against a 200/200 protoss army, unless you emp perfectly and unless you are really lucky. So basicly you kill a terran's army, you warp in a new army, you move that new army to your surviving units and you move to his production facilities. He will not be able to recover. You don't need to fight planetary fortresses at all. I am maybe exaggerating, but you are too. Terran undefeatable lategame... I really don't know how you dare to say that...
Game 4: TOP made it indeed look ridiculously EASY to take multiple bases, to have the supply-advantage and mass production capabilities ready just when toss gets to the amulet. This aside, the funny thing is, game 4 (the only one where Top allowed MC a lategame and didn't crush him in midgame) never looked toss-favoured at all, even after MC had colossi/templar. Although I'm obviously biased, game 4 looked quite balanced in lategame...TOP just had marauder/ghost/medivac/viking, but constantly attacked at multiple locations and (ab)used the higher HP of marauders compared to marines vs storm-tech. I'm really sorry to say this, but TOP didn't do anything fancy at all. Just 2 different attacking groups who constantly did damage and were reinforced instantly due to TOP having the economical advantage that he gained/took at the time where toss couldn't do anything (insufficient colossi-count and templar tech not done yet.) He was the better player and won very well deserved, but he didn't have to play "significantly" better as if to overcome any sorts of supposed "imbalance". Opposed to the performance of eg. fruitdealer in GSL 1 where it was obvious that he had to play like double as good AND get lucky to overcome certain timings.
First of all, after watching the games, i was kind of disappointed (i secretly hoped to see some revolutionary way to beat toss lategame ). oGsTOP just played more or less standard bio all the time (except the one on scrap station). However, his execution and multitasking was near flawless and that eventually won him the games.
Also note that in the last game on XC, oGsTOP did NOT win because of how he handled storm. He won because he kept a significant economic advantage throughout the whole game. In every battle after amulet, TOP's bio got crushed to pieces by storm. He simply won because he has insane multitasking and continually dropped MC's expansions to deny his eco. He also did a very good job of constantly trading armies to prevent the toss ball from getting to critical mass.
Thats how people should be playing terran though. There is no magical sure win method for terran or protoss. Just like there is no magical answer to EMP, there is also no magical answer to storm. Both hurt a lot. Storm is designed to be good versus good low hp units like mm. Top showed that you can easily get a huge econ advantage because toss spend so much on tech(charge, storm, amulet, colo range, and support bay) while stalling the timing attack using drops/runby. Punish toss for being immobile. Im just repeating myself, but yea. Top played great while MC played average so of course top is going to win.
Ok, all who watched MC vs TOP should be aware that they played on a laggy connection. MC stated in one of the games that he was unnable to cast good FF when he needed them. Bassicly what i seen here was TOP playing great macro game but it is questionable however if he would be actually pulling all 4 wins out like he did if they wouldnt be playing in lagg? We all know that FF-ing in correct time is much harder to do on lagg than to stim in the right moment.
Also people here seem to underrate emp vs storm. Just finish watching match between praerikytan and white-ra for 4PL Close Combat Cup. The both match revolved around macro+emp+storm. Very nice match. You can get replay pack from drool(caster for ragequittv)'s facebook or twitter + Show Spoiler +
Both games, praerikytan used many emps that just basically locked out most of the storms(even emping warping temp) and destroyed white-ra's zealot, immortal, and temp
ogsTOP (T) taking out easily ogsMC (P) 4-0 in a bo7. in the 4th game ogsTOP made storm look bad
Yea Top did what terran is supposed to do in the matchup. Expand a lot since you have minerals from mules. Attack in a lot of location at same time to abuse Protoss immobility. Game 4 is an good example of how to play macro terran against storm. Even though storm is good, it takes long to get and before he gets it terran is free to take expo as long as he take in consideration of colossus timing pushes(Top went like 10 vikings every game). He was consistently 30 food ahead of toss at mid/late game.
MC played solid games though 3 and 4. His games kind of reminds me of mine when I play protoss. Always behind on bases because you pay so much on teching.
Terran tend to lose to toss in long games because they just want to macro and get in big battles. Of course that favors toss when all toss does have is a deathball with aoes.
This has been in line with my observations. Terran's #1 priority in TvP is getting up his third base. I'm not convinced that the 4th is needed ASAP but Terran cannot function two basing.
Game 4: TOP made it indeed look ridiculously EASY to take multiple bases, to have the supply-advantage and mass production capabilities ready just when toss gets to the amulet. This aside, the funny thing is, game 4 (the only one where Top allowed MC a lategame and didn't crush him in midgame) never looked toss-favoured at all, even after MC had colossi/templar. Although I'm obviously biased, game 4 looked quite balanced in lategame...TOP just had marauder/ghost/medivac/viking, but constantly attacked at multiple locations and (ab)used the higher HP of marauders compared to marines vs storm-tech. I'm really sorry to say this, but TOP didn't do anything fancy at all. Just 2 different attacking groups who constantly did damage and were reinforced instantly due to TOP having the economical advantage that he gained/took at the time where toss couldn't do anything (insufficient colossi-count and templar tech not done yet.) He was the better player and won very well deserved, but he didn't have to play "significantly" better as if to overcome any sorts of supposed "imbalance". Opposed to the performance of eg. fruitdealer in GSL 1 where it was obvious that he had to play like double as good AND get lucky to overcome certain timings.
@touch http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft2/replays/41283 Is the 1rax FE really stable? Top make it look so easy but i tried it and its not that succesfull, so vulnerable to all sort of allins, any feeback?
yes 1 rax expand is a safe build to carry out. You will have 3 rax with tech labs when its 6 min mark to defend a 4 gate and enough MM to deal with blink stalkers by 7 min. If you noticed TOP strategy is survival, he get combat shields upgrade before stim so he can survive the first few minutes of all in and void ray strat. IMO combat shields is better than stim in early game because dps of terran > protoss even without stim in small groups. Your units however have to survive as protoss warp gate tech kicks in, protoss production will be 1.5 times of terran.
T v P is balanced, like all other matches. It is just up to the skill and timing........I am not pro , I am just a platinum terran and Im telling you--my worst match is TvZ not v P. What is best in platinum I think is to put early pressure on protoss and always get a fast 2ghosts for emp or a raven for PDD
just lost a game, after holding off a 4 gate zealot all in (LOL) and then killing his expansion once, failing to get up his ramp... eventually a big battle 126 supply to 105 (P) he attacks into 2 bunkers, i have 5 vikings on a cliff out of reach of stalkers hitting collosi and he win s the battle. guy had 30 apm I had 80...TvP is not balanced unless you are ridiculously good.
the TOP vs MC games were played on the NA server from korea and as toss its very important to place perfect FF and storms, ect.. I pretty sure that if they played on the korean server the result wouldnt be so onesided
On December 31 2010 17:57 Irre wrote: just lost a game, after holding off a 4 gate zealot all in (LOL) and then killing his expansion once, failing to get up his ramp... eventually a big battle 126 supply to 105 (P) he attacks into 2 bunkers, i have 5 vikings on a cliff out of reach of stalkers hitting collosi and he win s the battle. guy had 30 apm I had 80...TvP is not balanced unless you are ridiculously good.
You hold a 4gate and kill an expo, but you're only 20supply ahead? Sounds like your macro wasnt flawless at the very least, or you made some major blunders.
On December 31 2010 17:57 Irre wrote: just lost a game, after holding off a 4 gate zealot all in (LOL) and then killing his expansion once, failing to get up his ramp... eventually a big battle 126 supply to 105 (P) he attacks into 2 bunkers, i have 5 vikings on a cliff out of reach of stalkers hitting collosi and he win s the battle. guy had 30 apm I had 80...TvP is not balanced unless you are ridiculously good.
So he went all-in... yet had a expansion? You crushed his no-tech build and denied him an expansion, and yet only had 126 supply by the time he got out multiple colossi? Sounds like a case of both players being terrible rather than anything to do with balance.
On December 30 2010 22:22 Ikkuh wrote: in a state of the game podcast incontrol said that once protoss gets the amulet upgrade they have a99% chance to win the game. Nony also said in one of those podcasts that tankplay is easily shutdown by immortalzealotstalker (ht). Ive seen other terrans post which were around 3100 pts saying that once protoss gets ht with amulet they almost always win because carrier+ht is incredibly hard to beat. Another very strong thing is getting immortals as protoss whenyou have +3 attack upgrades because they will 2shot marauders then, so the immortalht zealot combination is almost impossible to beat in lategame (thats what servyoa posted on gamereplays.org
Protoss don't have a 99% chance to win with amulet . Simply no , maybe invest some ghosts to instant un avoidable EMP rounds who drain all psi energy and 100 shields ? EMP is much stronger then storm is for the fact that u can only hurt marauders by 20 hp and that terran can stim away while medivacs are healing . Protoss vs Terran in late game is definitely Terran favored if the terran haves bunkers and planetary fortress in his base . U can't win vs that . You can never break a terran bunker defense of 4 + bunkers since that will require the worst late game unit : immortals and stalkers . On Lost Temple Terran is favored heavely . You Simply can not win a late game vs terran ever on that map . Since if u kill his army when he pushes out he haves an army ready at the ramp u can not see and he snipes away all ur HT and ur done for . Lost Temple is one of those maps that favors terran to the point that the map should be removed .
In every blizzard game Lost Temple has been the worst and most imbalanced maps of them all . In warcraft 3 Human had allmost an automatic win vs Undead and Orc and this was when the game was just out and with the final balance . The map was ridiculles and Blizzard really sucks with their stupid LT map pools . Why do people on TL says the map is so great ?????
TL;DR Terrans are favored late game vs protoss on maps that feature a ramp where they can shoot ur units when u try to break their base . Planetary fortress on the expo may be risky , but it is undefeatable .
Bunkers against protoss in late game made me LOL, it's not like they are outranged by colossi or void rays, not at all.... and you are practically immobile with bunkers aswell and how many bunkers are you planning on building so that they come at least close to being cost effective? 20?
I just can't believe you really came up with this idea, building bunkers, that is absolutely hilarious.
And the same goes for a planetary fortress, just get some void rays or colossus with thermal lance and it's done.
Protoss have a whole variety of different strategies or counters available and are definitely the stronger race in lategame.
On December 30 2010 22:22 Ikkuh wrote: in a state of the game podcast incontrol said that once protoss gets the amulet upgrade they have a99% chance to win the game. Nony also said in one of those podcasts that tankplay is easily shutdown by immortalzealotstalker (ht). Ive seen other terrans post which were around 3100 pts saying that once protoss gets ht with amulet they almost always win because carrier+ht is incredibly hard to beat. Another very strong thing is getting immortals as protoss whenyou have +3 attack upgrades because they will 2shot marauders then, so the immortalht zealot combination is almost impossible to beat in lategame (thats what servyoa posted on gamereplays.org
Protoss don't have a 99% chance to win with amulet . Simply no , maybe invest some ghosts to instant un avoidable EMP rounds who drain all psi energy and 100 shields ? EMP is much stronger then storm is for the fact that u can only hurt marauders by 20 hp and that terran can stim away while medivacs are healing . Protoss vs Terran in late game is definitely Terran favored if the terran haves bunkers and planetary fortress in his base . U can't win vs that . You can never break a terran bunker defense of 4 + bunkers since that will require the worst late game unit : immortals and stalkers . On Lost Temple Terran is favored heavely . You Simply can not win a late game vs terran ever on that map . Since if u kill his army when he pushes out he haves an army ready at the ramp u can not see and he snipes away all ur HT and ur done for . Lost Temple is one of those maps that favors terran to the point that the map should be removed .
In every blizzard game Lost Temple has been the worst and most imbalanced maps of them all . In warcraft 3 Human had allmost an automatic win vs Undead and Orc and this was when the game was just out and with the final balance . The map was ridiculles and Blizzard really sucks with their stupid LT map pools . Why do people on TL says the map is so great ?????
TL;DR Terrans are favored late game vs protoss on maps that feature a ramp where they can shoot ur units when u try to break their base . Planetary fortress on the expo may be risky , but it is undefeatable .
Bunkers against protoss in late game made me LOL, it's not like they are outranged by colossi or void rays, not at all.... and you are practically immobile with bunkers aswell and how many bunkers are you planning on building so that they come at least close to being cost effective? 20?
I just can't believe you really came up with this idea, building bunkers, that is absolutely hilarious.
And the same goes for a planetary fortress, just get some void rays or colossus with thermal lance and it's done.
Protoss have a whole variety of different strategies or counters available and are definitely the stronger race in lategame.
I agree on bunkers not being useful late game, but planetary fortresses with some turrets are sometimes useful to protect your tankline.
And please watch top vs mc game 4. Protoss vs terran looks balanced late game
As a protoss player I've had some great success with ht play. Especially when it wasn't yet used in gsl or elsewhere as often as now. Terrans counter it a bit better now imo.
I see the amulet as a problem. Too easy to warp in a few templars and immediately cast storms.
But heavy ht play is countered pretty nicely with multiple ghosts. When terran makes only one or two ghosts, it's too easy to feedback them both and win the battle. I usually lose if terran has like 7 ghosts when attacking. EMP is aoe spell with longer range than feedback.
My balance suggestion: Nerf emp somehow, maybe 1 range less, and the templar could warp in with 60 or 65 energy even with the amulet. Opinions?
Other than that, pvt is quite balanced, terran late game is not good as toss's though.
People keep saying that its toss late game, its not the late game its the late game army, if you keep trading an armies with the P your not gonna lose because P needs to beat your army with an significant advantage (which they are more and more as you both reach 200/200). The only thin that I hate about TvP late game is when you've got an advantage and you want to press it against P on an expansion its so hard because of the insta warp in with storms to defend. What top did so well in the 4th game against MC+ Show Spoiler +
He kept P's army count low and when it wasnt he dropped in many places so the P had to split up his army which made top's army more efficient but tbh MC didnt play like normal, he was complaining about lag and you could tell there was lag so its not the greatest example but the principle still stands.
Also its the fact that P can tech switch between carrier to storm cause the counters for T are completely different for each (viking/marine - maruder/ghost) but thats in the like very late game. These are the only two slight imbalances but its not like so game breaking like people on this thread seem to think.
hmm i just watched those MC vs TOP games and all i gotta say is in game 4: + Show Spoiler +
something just didn't feel right man. Like fur realz
but i mean if that was completely legit and both were playing TOP of their game. hehe + Show Spoiler +
Then i guess you can just mass marauders and ghosts and suicide them till you win. I for some reason was under the impression that marauders were losing their edge but guess they are pretty darn cheap.
Uhh. OGSmc made some stupid mistakes. He wasn't playing his best for sure. Game 1: Shouldn't have opted for base trade. Terran won by a technicality. Game 2: He expanded vs a timing attack all-in w/ scvs. Game 3: Bad void ray control, allowed terran to 3 base vs his 2 base, threw inneffective forcefields Game 4: Was massively outmacro'd in the following ways: 13 minute mark -Terran had 10 worker advantage after harassment and extra expo -Terran had gold base up, protoss hadn't started his 3rd at all -Protoss built a lot of sentries after mentioning that they didn't do well on the server 19 minute mark Terran player 16 workers ahead Terran player was 1-1, protoss was 0-0-0
The Terran player then kept distracting ogsMC and killing things like pylons and nexii and absolutely destroying his macro. MC got outplayed, this had nothing to do with the viability of the forces. None of MCs units ever went across the middle of the map (aside from his observers) and Top was constantly 1 base ahead and harassing everywhere
In addition, they were playing on the Laggy US server from Korea... MC was prepared to do his normal domination, but went on a landslide of losses after the first one, and then some poor decision making.
Tons of people are saying protoss is overpowered, I can only attest to the opposite. Sure I play in the noobiest league there is but I find it's impossible to hold off a terran attack any time before I have templars, collossi or other tech,a nd even then if he has tech i cant match his production capability, even with 4 or more gates. Only when you let the game get to 200/200 is protoss really op. And at the pro level, the best of the best, terran mops the floor with protoss often enough.
For what it's worth, I'd like to see marauders slightly nerfed (more gas cost? More expensive conc shell upgrade?) and HTs also nerfed a bit. Maybe amulet doesn't give instant storm but just a bonus to starting energy so storm is available faster?
On January 07 2011 16:45 HavokTheorem wrote: Tons of people are saying protoss is overpowered, I can only attest to the opposite. Sure I play in the noobiest league there is but I find it's impossible to hold off a terran attack any time before I have templars, collossi or other tech,
Respectfully: this undermines your ability to speak to the state of the matchup in a pretty significant way.
On January 07 2011 16:56 Bonham wrote: For what it's worth, I'd like to see marauders slightly nerfed (more gas cost? More expensive conc shell upgrade?) and HTs also nerfed a bit. Maybe amulet doesn't give instant storm but just a bonus to starting energy so storm is available faster?
I'm with you there. I personally think that marauders are so effective in TvP that they completely overshadow other units. Why use a thor if i can get more mobile marauders instead ?
However, TvP is just one matchup. Nerfing the marauder in any way without looking at the roach will create immense problems for TvZ (mass roach is already quite strong).
On December 13 2010 22:49 EasternSun wrote: Funny how conveniently you choose such replays,i can show you tons of pro replays in where terrans decimate protoss,not to speak what it is the matchup in the highest lvls.True it is terran favored - the facts shows that. As for those matchups,when the two pro players are going at it,we can assume they have almost the same lvl of macro,so it's decided pretty much from unit combinations and in-game decisions as well as micro. Seems to me another QQ thread,learn what in-game decisions and unit combination are good and what are bad at certain cases,then come again QQ-ing about the matchup.I suggest go and find replays where terrans wins(there are so many of them),and then come and post useless threads.That way your time will be better spent,instead of digging 2 or 3 replays where protoss wins because of terran player mistakes.
I agree with your sentiments statistics do not lie, the numbers are in favor of Terran at the highest levels of play.
Edit: The argument can go either way, Vikings own Colossi, Psi Storm is the great equalizer...etc. Just go with the numbers.
Personally, I find the best way to deal with protoss is to push out with a strong bio - viking timing attack, and with a few tanks mixed in if he masses more gateway units, this is if he is going collosi. I make sure I hit right before templar tech is done, and usually I'm able to break through. If he is going for an early archives, he's being too greedy and you can push out and punish him, usually ending a game right there.
Another approach I find viable on some maps, is too go for quick marauders and pressure a bit, in which case he will most likely transition into collosi, keep pumping bio, with vikings and dropships, he will comfortably sit back and tech to hts, the thing is though he has considerably less mobility with his army. So you want to hold up a strong position, eg. one of the xelnaga towers on lost temple assuming your opponent is on the opposite side, and go for continuous drops, at this time your opponent is likely holding the other tower with something like three bases, possibly four if his micro is good, if you can get the templar archives thats great, but you really want to pick off geysers and probes. If your drops end up doing lots of damage, the you can push with your bio + viking, if he responds well, get a ghost academy and stall while you get siege tech, at this point its really about constantly having a good idea of when his army is out of position so that you can push, if it drags on you will definitely need siege tech to survive, but even then at this point your window is closed, and a good toss can gradually push and take you.
Pure mech, i.e., helions, thors and vikings, and banshees if you want them, actually works really well against toss, the problem is transitioning from the initial bio play, however, if your opponent is going extremely zealot heavy if you are going marauders, you should definitely get some blue flame helions, which absolutely massacre zealot balls, the insane amount of splash will let your bio pick them off easily, at the mid game stage, which he is transitioning to hts, this can easily net you a win, if you opponent is careless with his unit composition.
IMO the matchup is pretty balanced and the ghost is still underused. Ts have everything to counter the opponent without having too much to invest in tech"switches"!
the opponent has colossi? oh, i can make vikings out of my starport which i have anyway.
HTs? get ghosts, ffs. they own pretty much every protoss ball as well as sentries + HTs behind the enemy army. the cast is instant and AOE, you can't dodge it as storm and has like infinite range.
you're behind in economy/tech? marauder drop the enemy with your medivacs (you have them anyway..) and surprise him, they do ridiculous damage to buildings. it's not even funny anymore how fast you can take down buildings with marauders compared to units of other races. invest the same minerals/gas for a protoss drop and you can't do nothing to buildings. and Ps paperplane doesn't even heal the units.
your MMM ball doesn't kill everything? spread it, add tanks, add vikings(indeed), upgrade it, add ghosts. and if you have the economy: make a thor to stomp down force fields. why not? and counter the enemy unit composition, you can't expect your MMs alone to roflstomp everything.
and picking out fitting replays as support for your QQ doesn't make it better, coz there are enough replays out there that prove the opposite.
On January 07 2011 21:56 ilikeLIONZ wrote:IMO the matchup is pretty balanced and the ghost is still underused. Ts have everything to counter the opponent without having too much to invest in tech"switches"!
the opponent has colossi? oh, i can make vikings out of my starport which i have anyway.
HTs? get ghosts, ffs. they own pretty much every protoss ball as well as sentries + HTs behind the enemy army. the cast is instant and AOE, you can't dodge it as storm and has like infinite range.
you're behind in economy/tech? marauder drop the enemy with your medivacs (you have them anyway..) and surprise him, they do ridiculous damage to buildings. it's not even funny anymore how fast you can take down buildings with marauders compared to units of other races. invest the same minerals/gas for a protoss drop and you can't do nothing to buildings. and Ps paperplane doesn't even heal the units.
your MMM ball doesn't kill everything? spread it, add tanks, add vikings(indeed), upgrade it, add ghosts. and if you have the economy: make a thor to stomp down force fields. why not? and counter the enemy unit composition, you can't expect your MMs alone to roflstomp everything.
and picking out fitting replays as support for your QQ doesn't make it better, coz there are enough replays out there that prove the opposite.
Of course we have to invest in tech switches. First off all, one production building is often not enough to produce sufficient units, even when using reactors - so you have to add production buildings. Next there is upgrades. Bio, mech and air all have completely different damage/armor upgrades so you'll have to start from scratch. And that is not to mention things like energy upgrades, cloak etc.
I'm not saying terran has a harder time tech switching than other races, but we don't have an easier time either. And saying we already have the counter to everything readily available is pretty stupid. If we have barracks, factory, starport, ghost academy and armory of course we can make everything (barring bcs). Just like a toss who has a stargate, warpgates, robo and templar archives. Just because we get it anyway does not mean that it is any easier to get.
For the record, EMP is NOT instant but is a projectile that CAN miss if the enemy moves out quickly. And it does NOT have "like infinite range" but rather slightly more (+1) range than feedback and storm.
Protoss can't do effective drops ? Just because many protoss don't recognize how awesome warp prisms are does not mean that they are useless. You should watch some games of whitera for example. He uses a lot of warp prisms lately and does really nice stuff with them. Those "paperplanes" as you call them have only 10 hp less than a medivac at equal speed. So how are they any more fragile than the medivac ? Oh and did i mention they don't cost gas ?
make a thor to stomp down force fields. why not?
This one made me laugh. I'd actually like to see thors used to stomp down forcefields by anyone and still win the fight. By the time your slow ass thor walks over the forcefields, they have disappeared anyway. It's not like you have to move near a ff to crush it, you have to walk on top of it. Of and of course your 300/200 unit does a whooping 0 damage while it trying to stomp ffs.
you can't expect your MMs alone to roflstomp everything.
Yes, that is why we add medivacs, vikings and ghosts to the mix.
For the record, EMP is NOT instant but is a projectile that CAN miss if the enemy moves out quickly. And it does NOT have "like infinite range" but rather slightly more (+1) range than feedback and storm.
isn't it like 13 range at the edge of the aoe spell? indeed it hasn't infinite range as i said, that was just to point out that it has a big range and the cast is almost instant and so freakin hard to dodge for an average player like you and me becuz it's almost instant (OK). in the moment you see the projectile flying (which i doubt you often do) you want to move out quickly? ok, monster reflexes you got there! the only thing you can do is predicting it, you can't just stim and run out of it like with a storm.
On January 07 2011 22:58 Lurk wrote: Protoss can't do effective drops ? Just because many protoss don't recognize how awesome warp prisms are does not mean that they are useless. Oh and did i mention they don't cost gas ?
are you the yellow press? i didn't write anything like they can't do effective drops, i just meant that a marauder drop is so cost effective if you focus tech buildings or expansions coz they take out buildings in no time, compared to a protoss drop OF THE SAME COST and tech "tier".
indeed, storm drops and immortal drops can be superawesome..
they don't cost gas because they don't HEAL and you can't pump out two of them at the same time off of one building. i called them paperplanes because of their look! (Origami? anyone?)
On January 07 2011 22:58 Lurk wrote: This one made me laugh. I'd actually like to see thors used to stomp down forcefields by anyone and still win the fight. By the time your slow ass thor walks over the forcefields, they have disappeared anyway. It's not like you have to move near a ff to crush it, you have to walk on top of it. Of and of course your 300/200 unit does a whooping 0 damage while it trying to stomp ffs.
it was just an appeal to try out new things, i've seen it work. People like TLO, who do freakin smart things in their games, wouldn't ever attract such a huge crowd if they would just play the standard way instead of doing cool stuff like that. also i added "if you have the economy for it".
On January 07 2011 22:58 Lurk wrote: Yes, that is why we add medivacs, vikings and ghosts to the mix.
yes and that's what i wrote, no?
please stop generalizing my statements that deal with specific situations.
the matchup is well-balanced, it's not broken or whatever the message of the thread is.
Don't read too much into my post i was just trying to correct some things that you stated. Obviously i misunderstood your post too if i wasn't a rant about how op terran is. You're a protoss player and obviously have a biased perspective of things, just like i have as a terran player. That's why we should help each other understand the misconceptions we have about the other's race. Like me telling you emp has not infinite but 10 range and is not instant (although it actually rarely happens that you miss). You free to and i would actually appreciate you telling me about misconceptions about toss as well. This would help my understanding of the matchup and improve my play.
The message of the thread is not that it's favored one way or the other but rather a discussion to improve or diversify terran lategame tactics vs protoss. As most terrans don't fell the matchup is well-balanced but rather that we have an advantage in the early game but a disadvantage in the late game (leading to about 50% win rate and giving the impression of a balanced matchup).
I don't get why all protoss just say terran can get viking to kill colossus. By the time vikings kill colossus, you have no more army except the 1 or 2 vikings left. I'm not saying that terran shouldn't get vikings, but protoss seem to think that its so easy for terran to kill colossus,
I find it a little silly how late game toss can just slap down colossus, ht, and carriers all at the same time and then belt out an endless stream of zealots with their excess minerals.
On December 13 2010 22:49 EasternSun wrote: Funny how conveniently you choose such replays,i can show you tons of pro replays in where terrans decimate protoss,not to speak what it is the matchup in the highest lvls.True it is terran favored - the facts shows that. As for those matchups,when the two pro players are going at it,we can assume they have almost the same lvl of macro,so it's decided pretty much from unit combinations and in-game decisions as well as micro. Seems to me another QQ thread,learn what in-game decisions and unit combination are good and what are bad at certain cases,then come again QQ-ing about the matchup.I suggest go and find replays where terrans wins(there are so many of them),and then come and post useless threads.That way your time will be better spent,instead of digging 2 or 3 replays where protoss wins because of terran player mistakes.
I agree with your sentiments statistics do not lie, the numbers are in favor of Terran at the highest levels of play.
Edit: The argument can go either way, Vikings own Colossi, Psi Storm is the great equalizer...etc. Just go with the numbers.
Have you never heard that there are three lies?
Lies, damned lies, and statistics.
First, where are the facts? Second, so what if they win at the highest level? It doesn't indicate balance.
Kas never really impresses me as a player. I've seen several of his replays and he's rather all-innish of a player who prefers to stay on 1-2 base. I'm not saying that this is bad (It can be your style if you want it to be), it's just that it seems whenever i look at the production, all I'll see is a supply depot and facepalm because he's supply blocked himself again. To be honest, you have to play WAY more solid lategame than people would think, and at the moment people who play Terran just don't know how to play macro games because the rest of their strategies have been so gimmicky and have always been so successful that terrible macro didn't matter because they had already killed like 10-20 workers for the opponent.
On January 07 2011 23:58 Farkinator wrote: Kas never really impresses me as a player. I've seen several of his replays and he's rather all-innish of a player who prefers to stay on 1-2 base. I'm not saying that this is bad (It can be your style if you want it to be), it's just that it seems whenever i look at the production, all I'll see is a supply depot and facepalm because he's supply blocked himself again. To be honest, you have to play WAY more solid lategame than people would think, and at the moment people who play Terran just don't know how to play macro games because the rest of their strategies have been so gimmicky and have always been so successful that terrible macro didn't matter because they had already killed like 10-20 workers for the opponent.
People keep saying that terran players just suck at macro, but why do you exactly think zerg or toss players are any better? The reason why terran players try to end games before lategame is, zerg and toss can both roflstomp lategame terrans(well lately toss more, I feel I can control zerg a lot more into lategame, so I'm not screwed there).
For lategame TvP, you have to have pretty sweet multitasking to be able to hit the toss on 2-3 places at the same time, which a lot of us just don't have the skill to do(yet anyway). Else AoE just rapes terran and there's nothing else to look forward to. Been trying out thors to move out of MMM, but everything a thor can do, MMM can do a lot better. Banshee play works to some extend, if you are careful using scan+vikings to snipe obs's, but straight up, lategame the terran just has to be a lot better to come out ahead(or have done good econ dmg in early game).
My macro could be better, but as far as I can tell, I'm no worse than any other players of my pt level(~2.4k pts) in that regard, I just loose 95+% of TvP after 3 bases. I can win at 2 bases, or more accurately, before templar+storm+kayden hit, but after that... This isn't to say I've stopped trying, but it feels like on 3base(at my skill level) the game is the toss's to loose.
On January 07 2011 23:58 Farkinator wrote: Kas never really impresses me as a player. I've seen several of his replays and he's rather all-innish of a player who prefers to stay on 1-2 base. I'm not saying that this is bad (It can be your style if you want it to be), it's just that it seems whenever i look at the production, all I'll see is a supply depot and facepalm because he's supply blocked himself again. To be honest, you have to play WAY more solid lategame than people would think, and at the moment people who play Terran just don't know how to play macro games because the rest of their strategies have been so gimmicky and have always been so successful that terrible macro didn't matter because they had already killed like 10-20 workers for the opponent.
What exactly to do mean my terran player suck at macro ? To my understanding macro is considered managing and expanding your economy, building adequate production facilities and keeping them running and also of course manage your army whilst doing that. Knowing when and where to attack are obviously factors as well.
In most macro games i play vs protoss i have equal or better economy/income, i have little unspend money (always keeping those production facilities running) and i still lose most of them. So please tell me, what more is there to macro that i don't get ? I have the impression that it is my MICRO that's keeping me from winning the battles, not the MACRO. And having watched my fair share of TvP pro replays i can tell you that it's not the macro that's keeping the terrans from winning. It's just that microing mmm(vg) is imo harder to do than microing gateway + placing storms.
On January 07 2011 23:43 Mr_Kyo wrote: I don't get why all protoss just say terran can get viking to kill colossus. By the time vikings kill colossus, you have no more army except the 1 or 2 vikings left. I'm not saying that terran shouldn't get vikings, but protoss seem to think that its so easy for terran to kill colossus,
Use vikings' superior range to harass colossus prior to engagement, attacking along a different vector rather than just A-move from your main force. He'll bring his stalkers over, you'll fly away and start looping around, etc. The idea is either to do damage to the colossi, or to get the stalkers out of position; if you can do that then you can bring up your army and focus on the colossi (or just hammer the rest of his army for cheap for a second while he runs his stalkers back).
On January 07 2011 23:58 Farkinator wrote: Kas never really impresses me as a player. I've seen several of his replays and he's rather all-innish of a player who prefers to stay on 1-2 base. I'm not saying that this is bad (It can be your style if you want it to be), it's just that it seems whenever i look at the production, all I'll see is a supply depot and facepalm because he's supply blocked himself again. To be honest, you have to play WAY more solid lategame than people would think, and at the moment people who play Terran just don't know how to play macro games because the rest of their strategies have been so gimmicky and have always been so successful that terrible macro didn't matter because they had already killed like 10-20 workers for the opponent.
People keep saying that terran players just suck at macro, but why do you exactly think zerg or toss players are any better? The reason why terran players try to end games before lategame is, zerg and toss can both roflstomp lategame terrans(well lately toss more, I feel I can control zerg a lot more into lategame, so I'm not screwed there).
For lategame TvP, you have to have pretty sweet multitasking to be able to hit the toss on 2-3 places at the same time, which a lot of us just don't have the skill to do(yet anyway). Else AoE just rapes terran and there's nothing else to look forward to. Been trying out thors to move out of MMM, but everything a thor can do, MMM can do a lot better. Banshee play works to some extend, if you are careful using scan+vikings to snipe obs's, but straight up, lategame the terran just has to be a lot better to come out ahead(or have done good econ dmg in early game).
My macro could be better, but as far as I can tell, I'm no worse than any other players of my pt level(~2.4k pts) in that regard, I just loose 95+% of TvP after 3 bases. I can win at 2 bases, or more accurately, before templar+storm+kayden hit, but after that... This isn't to say I've stopped trying, but it feels like on 3base(at my skill level) the game is the toss's to loose.
Terran players are worse at macro then Z and P players for a reason, because all of the strats that they have built around have been very all innish. Everyone knew T players would be bad at macro games once they were brought into line (Siege Tank nerf, Reaper Nerf, Medivac speed nerf, numerous buffs to both races) because they simply hadn't practiced them enough, while P and Z players have been constantly playing long macro games since the beginning of retail.
Every single popular T strat to date has been extremely all innish
1) 1-1-1 Blue Helion drop, if this fails, you are set way behind 2) 3 Rax Reaper Rush, all innish (but OP obviously) 3) Marine/Tank/Raven push off a 1-1-1 build (predominantly 1 base play strat vs P) 4) Bio drops off 1 base into mass stim timing 80+ food attack 5) 3-1-2 Marine/Banshee/Raven 10 minute push
etc.
Virtually every single T strat that has developed has revolved around strong 1 base play that is suppose to outright kill or cripple your opponent. Not many Ts have ever developed strong macro style of play except STC and Jinro, and STC no longer plays anymore. Even during the beta T strats revolved around extremely strong early game that put them far ahead of the other races.
On January 07 2011 23:58 Farkinator wrote: Kas never really impresses me as a player. I've seen several of his replays and he's rather all-innish of a player who prefers to stay on 1-2 base. I'm not saying that this is bad (It can be your style if you want it to be), it's just that it seems whenever i look at the production, all I'll see is a supply depot and facepalm because he's supply blocked himself again. To be honest, you have to play WAY more solid lategame than people would think, and at the moment people who play Terran just don't know how to play macro games because the rest of their strategies have been so gimmicky and have always been so successful that terrible macro didn't matter because they had already killed like 10-20 workers for the opponent.
People keep saying that terran players just suck at macro, but why do you exactly think zerg or toss players are any better? The reason why terran players try to end games before lategame is, zerg and toss can both roflstomp lategame terrans(well lately toss more, I feel I can control zerg a lot more into lategame, so I'm not screwed there).
For lategame TvP, you have to have pretty sweet multitasking to be able to hit the toss on 2-3 places at the same time, which a lot of us just don't have the skill to do(yet anyway). Else AoE just rapes terran and there's nothing else to look forward to. Been trying out thors to move out of MMM, but everything a thor can do, MMM can do a lot better. Banshee play works to some extend, if you are careful using scan+vikings to snipe obs's, but straight up, lategame the terran just has to be a lot better to come out ahead(or have done good econ dmg in early game).
My macro could be better, but as far as I can tell, I'm no worse than any other players of my pt level(~2.4k pts) in that regard, I just loose 95+% of TvP after 3 bases. I can win at 2 bases, or more accurately, before templar+storm+kayden hit, but after that... This isn't to say I've stopped trying, but it feels like on 3base(at my skill level) the game is the toss's to loose.
Terran players are worse at macro then Z and P players for a reason, because all of the strats that they have built around have been very all innish. Everyone knew T players would be bad at macro games once they were brought into line (Siege Tank nerf, Reaper Nerf, Medivac speed nerf, numerous buffs to both races) because they simply hadn't practiced them enough, while P and Z players have been constantly playing long macro games since the beginning of retail.
Every single popular T strat to date has been extremely all innish
1) 1-1-1 Blue Helion drop, if this fails, you are set way behind 2) 3 Rax Reaper Rush, all innish (but OP obviously) 3) Marine/Tank/Raven push off a 1-1-1 build (predominantly 1 base play strat vs P) 4) Bio drops off 1 base into mass stim timing 80+ food attack 5) 3-1-2 Marine/Banshee/Raven 10 minute push
etc.
Virtually every single T strat that has developed has revolved around strong 1 base play that is suppose to outright kill or cripple your opponent. Not many Ts have ever developed strong macro style of play except STC and Jinro, and STC no longer plays anymore.
Your reasoning for the strats being semi-allin, is because the macro mechanic of P and Z are stronger in a macro game, zerg can produce up to double the workers terran can, which makes mule's static +4.5 workers rather lackluster. Same goes for toss, their ability to produce up to 22% more workers(with all CB on probes), forces terran to be offensive race, in a straight up macro game this means, either playing ridiculously efficiently or more commonly, with insane harassment(be it hellions/reapers/banshee for worker roast, nexus/hatch sniping etc).
You can see this quite clearly if you compare TvT with TvP/TvZ(You can also see this if you compare PvT with PvZ, where on one side, toss is perfectly fine chilling and expanding vs timing attacks/offensive play). There's no real pressure there for the terran to make his move, he's just got to not be caught out of position and not fall behind on bases.
Protoss had issues with MMM we found a way to counter it and what Terran do.. keep on going MMM!
Try new things, figure out ways to abuse the other players for having colossus. Head on MMM is good early on, but late game vs P it's pretty average. I think Painuser vs Tyler at MLG is a good example of this. Painuser is a good terran player late game and he totally schooled Tyler who's one of the top protoss player.
I feel like Terran just need to think outside the box, If the Protoss goes with the colossus ball, HT or not into it and you just run into it get FF'ed and die yougot only yourself to blame. When I have gateway units army, I don't run into siege tank line.
On January 07 2011 23:58 Farkinator wrote: Kas never really impresses me as a player. I've seen several of his replays and he's rather all-innish of a player who prefers to stay on 1-2 base. I'm not saying that this is bad (It can be your style if you want it to be), it's just that it seems whenever i look at the production, all I'll see is a supply depot and facepalm because he's supply blocked himself again. To be honest, you have to play WAY more solid lategame than people would think, and at the moment people who play Terran just don't know how to play macro games because the rest of their strategies have been so gimmicky and have always been so successful that terrible macro didn't matter because they had already killed like 10-20 workers for the opponent.
People keep saying that terran players just suck at macro, but why do you exactly think zerg or toss players are any better? The reason why terran players try to end games before lategame is, zerg and toss can both roflstomp lategame terrans(well lately toss more, I feel I can control zerg a lot more into lategame, so I'm not screwed there).
For lategame TvP, you have to have pretty sweet multitasking to be able to hit the toss on 2-3 places at the same time, which a lot of us just don't have the skill to do(yet anyway). Else AoE just rapes terran and there's nothing else to look forward to. Been trying out thors to move out of MMM, but everything a thor can do, MMM can do a lot better. Banshee play works to some extend, if you are careful using scan+vikings to snipe obs's, but straight up, lategame the terran just has to be a lot better to come out ahead(or have done good econ dmg in early game).
My macro could be better, but as far as I can tell, I'm no worse than any other players of my pt level(~2.4k pts) in that regard, I just loose 95+% of TvP after 3 bases. I can win at 2 bases, or more accurately, before templar+storm+kayden hit, but after that... This isn't to say I've stopped trying, but it feels like on 3base(at my skill level) the game is the toss's to loose.
Terran players are worse at macro then Z and P players for a reason, because all of the strats that they have built around have been very all innish. Everyone knew T players would be bad at macro games once they were brought into line (Siege Tank nerf, Reaper Nerf, Medivac speed nerf, numerous buffs to both races) because they simply hadn't practiced them enough, while P and Z players have been constantly playing long macro games since the beginning of retail.
Every single popular T strat to date has been extremely all innish
1) 1-1-1 Blue Helion drop, if this fails, you are set way behind 2) 3 Rax Reaper Rush, all innish (but OP obviously) 3) Marine/Tank/Raven push off a 1-1-1 build (predominantly 1 base play strat vs P) 4) Bio drops off 1 base into mass stim timing 80+ food attack 5) 3-1-2 Marine/Banshee/Raven 10 minute push
etc.
Virtually every single T strat that has developed has revolved around strong 1 base play that is suppose to outright kill or cripple your opponent. Not many Ts have ever developed strong macro style of play except STC and Jinro, and STC no longer plays anymore.
Your reasoning for the strats being semi-allin, is because the macro mechanic of P and Z are stronger in a macro game, zerg can produce up to double the workers terran can, which makes mule's static +4.5 workers rather lackluster. Same goes for toss, their ability to produce up to 22% more workers(with all CB on probes), forces terran to be offensive race, in a straight up macro game this means, either playing ridiculously efficiently or more commonly, with insane harassment(be it hellions/reapers/banshee for worker roast, nexus/hatch sniping etc).
You can see this quite clearly if you compare TvT with TvP/TvZ(You can also see this if you compare PvT with PvZ, where on one side, toss is perfectly fine chilling and expanding vs timing attacks/offensive play). There's no real pressure there for the terran to make his move, he's just got to not be caught out of position and not fall behind on bases.
The reasoning for this semi-all in style of play is that T players are lazy because the game allowed them to be lazy. Once Blizzard brought T in line within reason with the other races, all of a sudden everyone is crying "I HAVE NO FUCKING LATE GAME BECAUSE I NEVER PRACTICED IT WAAAAAAGH".
PainUser, STC, and Jinro all have/had extremely strong late game macro oriented style of play and can beat the best of the best (STC taking out top Korean players like Tester, FD at the time, and Jinro and PainUser beating some top premier players of their own like Nony).
Yes, your late game mechanic is weaker then the other races, but you also have much stronger base defense then the other races, along with the best harass in the game (until way late in the game where P has researched Storm/Amulet/Warp Prism techs and has DTs on hand too).
Comparatively speaking, T has the WORST late game options out of all the races in BW also, and yet no one ever whines there now do they? Late game TvZ you're still fighting Ultra/Defiler/Lurkers/Cracklings with M&M/Tank half the time with Sci Vessel mainly as a support unit.
Personally, I don't think the matchup is particularly imbalanced, but I'm glad I'm not the only one having trouble with it. I don't pretend to be the best player, but I know a couple of things. First: mech builds are not viable in this matchup (actually I think mass air is more viable than mech). Second: none of these "harassment options" are worth bitching about. The counters to any of them don't actually involve you building anything different, you just have to scout and reposition units you already have. if you're losing to hellion drops (because you're an idiot), reapers (because your shit is in a big pile at your choke), or banshees (because you're too greedy to build an observer) you need to play safer.
You may undertsand the terran point of view, but you don't understand the protoss one.
Blue Flame hellion drop is really effective on some maps where the only place you can see the dropship before it drops is the distance between the ledge and your minerals.
Alot of protoss only get a Robo Bay to build an observer then don't use it for the rest of the game. That observer cost us 250 minerals and 200 gaz.
I think Terran should consider more Blue Flame Hellion as part of their army late game since they are so good at killing zealots. Also, dropping to kill the Templar Archive then attacking negates the effect of Khadaryan Amulet.
how we managed to troll our ways through a thread despite having jinro's initial interest is concerning. we've scared off a legitimate pro from giving feedback because people are just shouting LRN2PLY at each other from various angles now.
This matchup is really reliant on timing pushes. The interplay of gateway+immortals against mmm progresses into colli or storm against ghosts or vikings. By the time each player is on 3+ bases the cost efficiency of colli and storms are very difficult to deal with. Most of the Toss's weakness is in-between these switches. Again it's important to remember that collie need thermal lance, and HT need storm, but also rely on amulet for the late game. The fact that these units are so reliant on massive upgrades makes attacking at these junctions crucial.
As a Toss player, QXC seems to have one of the most frustrating styles to deal with. There is just no way for toss to match a dropship's worth of mm until charge and feedback. Harassing a P not only freezes the army, it allows T to gauge where P is in their tech progression. The combination of harass with exploitation of the storm and thermal lance upgrades is really the best way to work TvP. (Well placed EMP's can literally subdue a massive P poosh)
2700+ Diamond and TvP atm seems a little to broken for me atm, its either 1-base all in the toss to win, attempt a late game and hopefully they mess up. Or get stomped by 4gate or vr rush
On January 07 2011 21:56 ilikeLIONZ wrote:IMO the matchup is pretty balanced and the ghost is still underused. Ts have everything to counter the opponent without having too much to invest in tech"switches"!
the opponent has colossi? oh, i can make vikings out of my starport which i have anyway.
HTs? get ghosts, ffs. they own pretty much every protoss ball as well as sentries + HTs behind the enemy army. the cast is instant and AOE, you can't dodge it as storm and has like infinite range.
you're behind in economy/tech? marauder drop the enemy with your medivacs (you have them anyway..) and surprise him, they do ridiculous damage to buildings. it's not even funny anymore how fast you can take down buildings with marauders compared to units of other races. invest the same minerals/gas for a protoss drop and you can't do nothing to buildings. and Ps paperplane doesn't even heal the units.
your MMM ball doesn't kill everything? spread it, add tanks, add vikings(indeed), upgrade it, add ghosts. and if you have the economy: make a thor to stomp down force fields. why not? and counter the enemy unit composition, you can't expect your MMs alone to roflstomp everything.
and picking out fitting replays as support for your QQ doesn't make it better, coz there are enough replays out there that prove the opposite.
Of course we have to invest in tech switches. First off all, one production building is often not enough to produce sufficient units, even when using reactors - so you have to add production buildings. Next there is upgrades. Bio, mech and air all have completely different damage/armor upgrades so you'll have to start from scratch. And that is not to mention things like energy upgrades, cloak etc.
I'm not saying terran has a harder time tech switching than other races, but we don't have an easier time either. And saying we already have the counter to everything readily available is pretty stupid. If we have barracks, factory, starport, ghost academy and armory of course we can make everything (barring bcs). Just like a toss who has a stargate, warpgates, robo and templar archives. Just because we get it anyway does not mean that it is any easier to get.
For the record, EMP is NOT instant but is a projectile that CAN miss if the enemy moves out quickly. And it does NOT have "like infinite range" but rather slightly more (+1) range than feedback and storm.
Protoss can't do effective drops ? Just because many protoss don't recognize how awesome warp prisms are does not mean that they are useless. You should watch some games of whitera for example. He uses a lot of warp prisms lately and does really nice stuff with them. Those "paperplanes" as you call them have only 10 hp less than a medivac at equal speed. So how are they any more fragile than the medivac ? Oh and did i mention they don't cost gas ?
This one made me laugh. I'd actually like to see thors used to stomp down forcefields by anyone and still win the fight. By the time your slow ass thor walks over the forcefields, they have disappeared anyway. It's not like you have to move near a ff to crush it, you have to walk on top of it. Of and of course your 300/200 unit does a whooping 0 damage while it trying to stomp ffs.
you can't expect your MMs alone to roflstomp everything.
Yes, that is why we add medivacs, vikings and ghosts to the mix.
As a diamond T player, I've always felt that tech switches could be quite troublesome. Not necessarily any more or less than any other race, but uniquely so.
Think of this: A T player on 3 bases needs at least 10-13 barracks (some reactor, some tech) to be able to constantly produce MM without having to queue in order to be able to replenish their army in a reasonable amount of time. If we got to this point and P switches to HT tech, and a T player wants to switch to mech play to stand a better chance against storms, they would have to make 5-6 factories w/ tech labs and another 1-2 with reactors, if they want to be able to replace their army in a reasonable amount of time. Or they could put down 6 starports to support BC production, but even that would take a long time to replace an army. All these structures take up a huge amount of real-estate, and a tech switch of this magnitude costs a huge amount of resources and time for the necessary production facilities to come online. It might take 4-5 minutes of play to make an effective transition army, all the while P can continue pumping units that decimate MMM out of the same 10-12 warpgates and 1-2 robo's.
My point is this: When faced with the decision of continuing MMM pushes/harrass and hoping for P to make a mistake, or gambling that you won't get overrun in a lengthy tech switch process that might not work, most will opt to hope the P makes a mistake. The pressure a good 3 base P player is able to put out can just be too much to handle for most players, so we hope for the best with our MMM/VG.
For the average diamond T such as myself, it is my humble opinion the matchup is getting boring simply because at my skill level it feels a viable tech switch is out of reach. For the pro's on the other hand, well they're just demi-gods and I envy their l33t skills.
I find the matchup is fairly balanced except when it goes into the late game (30+ mins, almost every base taken on the map), that's when P seems to have an advantage.
On January 07 2011 21:56 ilikeLIONZ wrote:IMO the matchup is pretty balanced and the ghost is still underused. Ts have everything to counter the opponent without having too much to invest in tech"switches"!
the opponent has colossi? oh, i can make vikings out of my starport which i have anyway.
HTs? get ghosts, ffs. they own pretty much every protoss ball as well as sentries + HTs behind the enemy army. the cast is instant and AOE, you can't dodge it as storm and has like infinite range.
you're behind in economy/tech? marauder drop the enemy with your medivacs (you have them anyway..) and surprise him, they do ridiculous damage to buildings. it's not even funny anymore how fast you can take down buildings with marauders compared to units of other races. invest the same minerals/gas for a protoss drop and you can't do nothing to buildings. and Ps paperplane doesn't even heal the units.
your MMM ball doesn't kill everything? spread it, add tanks, add vikings(indeed), upgrade it, add ghosts. and if you have the economy: make a thor to stomp down force fields. why not? and counter the enemy unit composition, you can't expect your MMs alone to roflstomp everything.
and picking out fitting replays as support for your QQ doesn't make it better, coz there are enough replays out there that prove the opposite.
Of course we have to invest in tech switches. First off all, one production building is often not enough to produce sufficient units, even when using reactors - so you have to add production buildings. Next there is upgrades. Bio, mech and air all have completely different damage/armor upgrades so you'll have to start from scratch. And that is not to mention things like energy upgrades, cloak etc.
I'm not saying terran has a harder time tech switching than other races, but we don't have an easier time either. And saying we already have the counter to everything readily available is pretty stupid. If we have barracks, factory, starport, ghost academy and armory of course we can make everything (barring bcs). Just like a toss who has a stargate, warpgates, robo and templar archives. Just because we get it anyway does not mean that it is any easier to get.
For the record, EMP is NOT instant but is a projectile that CAN miss if the enemy moves out quickly. And it does NOT have "like infinite range" but rather slightly more (+1) range than feedback and storm.
Protoss can't do effective drops ? Just because many protoss don't recognize how awesome warp prisms are does not mean that they are useless. You should watch some games of whitera for example. He uses a lot of warp prisms lately and does really nice stuff with them. Those "paperplanes" as you call them have only 10 hp less than a medivac at equal speed. So how are they any more fragile than the medivac ? Oh and did i mention they don't cost gas ?
make a thor to stomp down force fields. why not?
This one made me laugh. I'd actually like to see thors used to stomp down forcefields by anyone and still win the fight. By the time your slow ass thor walks over the forcefields, they have disappeared anyway. It's not like you have to move near a ff to crush it, you have to walk on top of it. Of and of course your 300/200 unit does a whooping 0 damage while it trying to stomp ffs.
you can't expect your MMs alone to roflstomp everything.
Yes, that is why we add medivacs, vikings and ghosts to the mix.
As a diamond T player, I've always felt that tech switches could be quite troublesome. Not necessarily any more or less than any other race, but uniquely so.
Think of this: A T player on 3 bases needs at least 10-13 barracks (some reactor, some tech) to be able to constantly produce MM without having to queue in order to be able to replenish their army in a reasonable amount of time. If we got to this point and P switches to HT tech, and a T player wants to switch to mech play to stand a better chance against storms, they would have to make 5-6 factories w/ tech labs and another 1-2 with reactors, if they want to be able to replace their army in a reasonable amount of time. Or they could put down 6 starports to support BC production, but even that would take a long time to replace an army. All these structures take up a huge amount of real-estate, and a tech switch of this magnitude costs a huge amount of resources and time for the necessary production facilities to come online. It might take 4-5 minutes of play to make an effective transition army, all the while P can continue pumping units that decimate MMM out of the same 10-12 warpgates and 1-2 robo's.
My point is this: When faced with the decision of continuing MMM pushes/harrass and hoping for P to make a mistake, or gambling that you won't get overrun in a lengthy tech switch process that might not work, most will opt to hope the P makes a mistake. The pressure a good 3 base P player is able to put out can just be too much to handle for most players, so we hope for the best with our MMM/VG.
For the average diamond T such as myself, it is my humble opinion the matchup is getting boring simply because at my skill level it feels a viable tech switch is out of reach. For the pro's on the other hand, well they're just demi-gods and I envy their l33t skills.
That's why you either need to:
a) Thug it out and bare the storms with your bio army. While it is pretty lame that all P have to do is spam warp HT/storm, you can still defeat a P opponent with MMMG if he's going HT. (Just requires a lot of micro and attacking multiple points at once, map permitting, so you can do some production/economy damage in the trade)
b) Assume the player will go HT eventually if he sees you massing bio and preemptively start the tech switch.
c) Make a gradual tech switch, reinforcing your bioball with mech until the bioball dies off & you're ready to go all mech.
I do agree with the real estate part tho. I often find myself building towards the center of the map. The plus side to this is less travel time. The negative is that its easy for the opponent to counter and take a sizable amount of your production out.
On January 07 2011 23:58 Farkinator wrote: Kas never really impresses me as a player. I've seen several of his replays and he's rather all-innish of a player who prefers to stay on 1-2 base. I'm not saying that this is bad (It can be your style if you want it to be), it's just that it seems whenever i look at the production, all I'll see is a supply depot and facepalm because he's supply blocked himself again. To be honest, you have to play WAY more solid lategame than people would think, and at the moment people who play Terran just don't know how to play macro games because the rest of their strategies have been so gimmicky and have always been so successful that terrible macro didn't matter because they had already killed like 10-20 workers for the opponent.
People keep saying that terran players just suck at macro, but why do you exactly think zerg or toss players are any better? The reason why terran players try to end games before lategame is, zerg and toss can both roflstomp lategame terrans(well lately toss more, I feel I can control zerg a lot more into lategame, so I'm not screwed there).
For lategame TvP, you have to have pretty sweet multitasking to be able to hit the toss on 2-3 places at the same time, which a lot of us just don't have the skill to do(yet anyway). Else AoE just rapes terran and there's nothing else to look forward to. Been trying out thors to move out of MMM, but everything a thor can do, MMM can do a lot better. Banshee play works to some extend, if you are careful using scan+vikings to snipe obs's, but straight up, lategame the terran just has to be a lot better to come out ahead(or have done good econ dmg in early game).
My macro could be better, but as far as I can tell, I'm no worse than any other players of my pt level(~2.4k pts) in that regard, I just loose 95+% of TvP after 3 bases. I can win at 2 bases, or more accurately, before templar+storm+kayden hit, but after that... This isn't to say I've stopped trying, but it feels like on 3base(at my skill level) the game is the toss's to loose.
Terran players are worse at macro then Z and P players for a reason, because all of the strats that they have built around have been very all innish. Everyone knew T players would be bad at macro games once they were brought into line (Siege Tank nerf, Reaper Nerf, Medivac speed nerf, numerous buffs to both races) because they simply hadn't practiced them enough, while P and Z players have been constantly playing long macro games since the beginning of retail.
Every single popular T strat to date has been extremely all innish
1) 1-1-1 Blue Helion drop, if this fails, you are set way behind 2) 3 Rax Reaper Rush, all innish (but OP obviously) 3) Marine/Tank/Raven push off a 1-1-1 build (predominantly 1 base play strat vs P) 4) Bio drops off 1 base into mass stim timing 80+ food attack 5) 3-1-2 Marine/Banshee/Raven 10 minute push
etc.
Virtually every single T strat that has developed has revolved around strong 1 base play that is suppose to outright kill or cripple your opponent. Not many Ts have ever developed strong macro style of play except STC and Jinro, and STC no longer plays anymore. Even during the beta T strats revolved around extremely strong early game that put them far ahead of the other races.
I'd suggest getting a clue before generalizing like this. Don't you think there is a reason as to why allins and 2 base plays are so prevalent? In TvP, atleast, you're simply disadvantaged from the get go after the 17 minute mark. So statistically, if you want to win, do it fast.
I've been trying to play macro games since release in TvP but it just ends up relying on the P player to screw up badly. I can be ahead, I can be the better player (mechanically), but if my units aren't killing stuff at a reasonable rate I'm not going to win.
I just dont get it why terrans say that and i quote "Mech is immobile". Last time i checked, unsieged tanks move as fast (or maybe abit slower) then your bioball, Hellions are one of the fastest units in the game and, since most terrans go bioball with medivac early game, i dont see the harm in lifting your Thors until you need to engage. Most of the terrans i play against never really seem to abuse their mobility as even a drop in my main (mineral lines, or just killing pylons) with stimrauders will cause so much damage... Terrans really need to get better with macro, since its either 1base all-ins or just plain 2basing.
On January 24 2011 17:44 julius33 wrote: I just dont get it why terrans say that and i quote "Mech is immobile". Last time i checked, unsieged tanks move as fast (or maybe abit slower) then your bioball, Hellions are one of the fastest units in the game and, since most terrans go bioball with medivac early game, i dont see the harm in lifting your Thors until you need to engage. Most of the terrans i play against never really seem to abuse their mobility as even a drop in my main (mineral lines, or just killing pylons) with stimrauders will cause so much damage... Terrans really need to get better with macro, since its either 1base all-ins or just plain 2basing.
Mech is incredibly immobile - siege tanks arent nearly as fast as stimmed bio, and you know what else they dont have? They dont have concussive shells.
Also gotta SIEGE, which takes forever. I like mech but of course its immobile, in fact its extremely immobile.
as a toss player i have alwayst felt that this matchup is pretty dangerous and frightening for both parts, thats what makes it so interesting. Anything can happen at any stage of the game, most of the time i think it comes down to scouting and intelligence. Terrans biggest advantage is probably their mobility and ability to to multi-drop and use the protoss immobility to their advantage, game 1 between Whitera and Sjow in the Intel Extreme Masters final is a good example.
What annoys me as a Protoss player is that its so hard to actually punish a terran player for making mistakes. Even if you kill most of his army without losing to much of your own stuff, you still wont be able to engage his planetary fortress with seiged tanks behind it, while a bunch of stimmed marauders will raze down a protoss expansion in a matter of seconds. Its so easy for terran to counter attack and abuse drops in your main/natural, while we are stuck with our immobile ball :/
I've been thinking, and trying a bit of a heavy bio opening into mech. Now mech is always map dependent, but I've been opening with mass marines. The DPS of marines, even with guardian shield seems to be quite good. They are extremely cheap to produce and in a straight up fight against stalkers they win quite well in terms of cost. The main problem is that without concussive, it's both easier for the enemy to retreat and fighting zealots without it is a bit worse, although I swear zealots usually melt pretty fast, especially early on.
With the mass marine pressure, I've added ghosts as more of an all-in if you believe it's viable at that point to win, and also just expanding with some early pressure. Once you take your 2nd though, you transition to mech. The toss will generally go colossi to deal with your marine ball. At this point you can switch the reactor from 1 rax to a starport, and put down 2 factories with which to make thors. Take the 3rd rax that was originally there and go marauders. So basically marauder, thor, viking against some colossi ball. If he's going HT's both marauders and thors do much better than marines. I still do mix in marines though from 1 reactored rax.
I've tried and thought about tanks, but I find it hard to get a "critical number" or atleast enough to deal with the amount of zealots he's gonna throw my way.
At this point you should have a couple medevacs or vikings and I've been thinking about trying to micro your thors with the medevacs so that they can strike cannon the colossi.
At the same time that I am trying to use mech, it's really a 2 base kind of build, because it's about beating that colossi combo and just plain rolling over your opponent.
Overall, I think that P has a huge advantage late game because late game the combat area is larger, and you need to mobility to harass and try and take out P's expansions. At the same time, mech play is simply not well suited to doing this. Either the tanks/mech kinda stops them from expanding, or they roll the person, or they lose. But it's not really possible to harass so much as stop the person in their tracks before toss can get a 3rd up. Not to mention, it's really very difficult to have a situation in which T wins in a straight up fight. All these add up to bio's dominance.
I want to add something that Tyler recently mentioned on his stream...I never really thought about it, but it is so very true: in the "classic" MMM vs gateway/colossi or gateway/templar battles, even if the battle itself is very close, the winner of the battle normally wins by a pretty large margin. As opposed to BW battles, where close battles resulted in close outcomes, close SC2 PvT battles always have a clear winner. If 2 colossi survive, then all it takes are 1-2 rounds of units to crush the remains of T. If all colossi get taken down, then concussive marauders go to town on all the remaining gateway units. Same holds true for templars - if all storms go off and a significant MM-force remains, they will just kill everything. Otherwise, obviously, the T is dead when storms have killed his entire army.
At least for me, this makes playing PvT pretty frustrating. In PvZ I always have the feeling that some games are on a razor's edge with many battles really close. In PvT, even against equally skilled opponents, I either stomp or get stomped - the game is in 90% of the cases decided by one battle, and one battle only if it involves playing against MMM.
On January 24 2011 17:44 julius33 wrote: I just dont get it why terrans say that and i quote "Mech is immobile". Last time i checked, unsieged tanks move as fast (or maybe abit slower) then your bioball, Hellions are one of the fastest units in the game and, since most terrans go bioball with medivac early game, i dont see the harm in lifting your Thors until you need to engage. Most of the terrans i play against never really seem to abuse their mobility as even a drop in my main (mineral lines, or just killing pylons) with stimrauders will cause so much damage... Terrans really need to get better with macro, since its either 1base all-ins or just plain 2basing.
You are saying that terrans should learn to macro which then would hurt your medivac/thor (+rest of your army) micro and if you keep microing your units your macro starts to suffer. I also have to say that it might still work with 1 or 3 thors, but if you start to get more it won't be worth to do it anymore and to make it even less viable is that those phoenix openings are getting more popular, so I don't see protoss not to try shoot down medivacs with or without thors inside.
Also, it is not the problem that tanks doesn't move fast enough, it is that you have to put them in siege mode for them to be effective, which then of course slows you down, because you don't want to move out most of the time without your tanks.
On January 24 2011 20:27 Mehukannu wrote: Also, it is not the problem that tanks doesn't move fast enough, it is that you have to put them in siege mode for them to be effective, which then of course slows you down, because you don't want to move out most of the time without your tanks.
It's even worse than that in my experience. Tanks in TvP only work properly in a contain (see Naama vs Mana) or while defending your own base, because in those situations you have bunkers protecting your meatshield from the splash. If tanks are sieged, your infantry can't maneuver properly because a) your tanks are in the way and b) you don't want to abandon your tanks. Zealot efficiency increases a lot because you cannot run as well, the tanks deal only little damage to them and on top the tanks splash hurts your troops just as much as his.
This leads to the conclusion, that you need bunkers or other buildings in conjuctions with tanks to shield the tanks, and there is little that is less mobile than a bunker. I heard even hydras off creep are faster.
On January 24 2011 21:35 branflakes14 wrote: I still find it ridiculous that Terran players forget they have a unit that can cloak, EMP and/or Snipe High Templar.
We do not forget that and most of us actually use ghosts. However, their high cost and very micro intensive skills makes mastering them virtually impossible. Snipe is a good example of this: apart from workers, unupgrades marines and zerglings you need to actually click several times to kill a single unit. While this might work well in small skirmishes, it's impossible to achieve in bigger engagements. Imagine, in order to kill 4 zealots, you need to click snipe 16 times. Now try to do that in the 1-2 seconds window you have to actually have to do this. Maybe it would be better if snipe would deal 2 damage per energy and consume as much energy as possible. So if you had 75 energy and sniped a zealot, it would consume all energy and one-shot the zealot. Or at least some auto-cast option. But as of right now, snipe is probably the most apm-intensive skill in the game if you want to use it properly.
Ghosts are a very powerful unit, probably the most powerful terran unit in the TvP matchup. However, they are also quite fragile and expensive. Also remember that not every toss is nice enough to just leave all their army unattended and clumped together so you can just walk up to them and emp them. Quite often, i had my ghost killed by feedback while trying to sneak up to the main templar force because i missed an observer and he saw me coming.
I think the biggest problem with microing ghosts is that managing a bioball (kiting zealots, dodging storms) and doing multiple drops at once is already so micro intensive that there is little attention span left to do sneaky little ghost "ops". Maybe it's easier to do that while playing mech which takes less micro to maintain, but then you will have trouble finding the gas for ghosts.
On January 07 2011 23:39 Lurk wrote: Don't read too much into my post i was just trying to correct some things that you stated. Obviously i misunderstood your post too if i wasn't a rant about how op terran is. You're a protoss player and obviously have a biased perspective of things, just like i have as a terran player. That's why we should help each other understand the misconceptions we have about the other's race. Like me telling you emp has not infinite but 10 range and is not instant (although it actually rarely happens that you miss). You free to and i would actually appreciate you telling me about misconceptions about toss as well. This would help my understanding of the matchup and improve my play.
The message of the thread is not that it's favored one way or the other but rather a discussion to improve or diversify terran lategame tactics vs protoss. As most terrans don't fell the matchup is well-balanced but rather that we have an advantage in the early game but a disadvantage in the late game (leading to about 50% win rate and giving the impression of a balanced matchup).
On January 24 2011 22:03 Lurk wrote: We do not forget that and most of us actually use ghosts. However, their high cost and very micro intensive skills makes mastering them virtually impossible. Snipe is a good example of this: apart from workers, unupgrades marines and zerglings you need to actually click several times to kill a single unit. While this might work well in small skirmishes, it's impossible to achieve in bigger engagements. Imagine, in order to kill 4 zealots, you need to click snipe 16 times. Now try to do that in the 1-2 seconds window you have to actually have to do this. Maybe it would be better if snipe would deal 2 damage per energy and consume as much energy as possible. So if you had 75 energy and sniped a zealot, it would consume all energy and one-shot the zealot. Or at least some auto-cast option. But as of right now, snipe is probably the most apm-intensive skill in the game if you want to use it properly.
Ghosts are a very powerful unit, probably the most powerful terran unit in the TvP matchup. However, they are also quite fragile and expensive. Also remember that not every toss is nice enough to just leave all their army unattended and clumped together so you can just walk up to them and emp them. Quite often, i had my ghost killed by feedback while trying to sneak up to the main templar force because i missed an observer and he saw me coming.
I think the biggest problem with microing ghosts is that managing a bioball (kiting zealots, dodging storms) and doing multiple drops at once is already so micro intensive that there is little attention span left to do sneaky little ghost "ops". Maybe it's easier to do that while playing mech which takes less micro to maintain, but then you will have trouble finding the gas for ghosts.
Apart from the micro requirement, ghosts don't have enough energy. Cloak is needed to increase chances to get that money EMP to reasonable levels and EMP is 75 energy. Most of the time ghosts will run dry very soon after that one EMP when cloaked.
Also the damage/energy ration of a sniper round is worse than most spells and on top of it it has a very awkward casting animation. I experimented with ghosts protecting marine balls from banelings using the snipe ability, but the casting point of snipe is so late, that the hard task to targeting every baneling becomes nearly impossible as you have to target every baneling half a second before he gets in splash range.
I might consider using it, if it would add a 2 second stun to the targeted bio unit or a larger range (like a 12+ range) so that you could use it to pick out prime targets in an attacking zerg horde.
Im a terran palyer(master league) and i always try to play a macro game against every race, even toss. Its really hard to win a huge battle with pure mmm. Terrans need to drop harass, because protoss units are worse in small battles. The other way is to mix in some mech. Thors are really good(high hp nad dmg, massive size) and hellions with blue flame can kite zealots forever, snipe templars and harras. Its a little like the oposite of tvp in brood war. In BW late game terran army was unbeatable in direct asoult without some high tech units(arbiter, templar, carrier), so protosses eighter have to tech and put some nice stasis or recal and abuse imobility of terran siegetanks
I love that Terran's whine about their tier 1.5 MMM (2 of which are extremely cheap) getting killed by tier 3 gas heavy units. They should own them, they cost twice as much. And for those of you that think storm is greater than emp. Emp is instant, cannot be dodge, storm can be run out of and thus reducing damage greatly. You whine that your marine/marauder that have 3 cheap upgrades get owned by templar that require 2 expensive tech buildings, 2 expensive upgrades, and the unit itself is gas heavy. See the problem guys?
By the way ghost's are insanely good, they basically stop most spells from casting (if the toss can spread well then not everything can be emp'd but you're always going to hit lots) and pretty much half all the Toss' units HP, and the ghost can also get cloak and emp range is huge. I myself find PvT kind of balanced later game, although I feel T can fight muccch more cost effectively, but its the early game that T can really hurt P, with one base all ins (raven/bshee) and denying scouting for awhile with wall offs, forcing P to 1/2gate robo.
On January 25 2011 01:10 TheDemigod wrote: I love that Terran's whine about their tier 1.5 MMM (2 of which are extremely cheap) getting killed by tier 3 gas heavy units. They should own them, they cost twice as much. And for those of you that think storm is greater than emp. Emp is instant, cannot be dodge, storm can be run out of and thus reducing damage greatly. You whine that your marine/marauder that have 3 cheap upgrades get owned by templar that require 2 expensive tech buildings, 2 expensive upgrades, and the unit itself is gas heavy. See the problem guys?
By the way ghost's are insanely good, they basically stop most spells from casting (if the toss can spread well then not everything can be emp'd but you're always going to hit lots) and pretty much half all the Toss' units HP, and the ghost can also get cloak and emp range is huge. I myself find PvT kind of balanced later game, although I feel T can fight muccch more cost effectively, but its the early game that T can really hurt P, with one base all ins (raven/bshee) and denying scouting for awhile with wall offs, forcing P to 1/2gate robo.
Terrans whine because they have no viable tier 3...
On January 25 2011 01:10 TheDemigod wrote: I love that Terran's whine about their tier 1.5 MMM (2 of which are extremely cheap) getting killed by tier 3 gas heavy units. They should own them, they cost twice as much. And for those of you that think storm is greater than emp. Emp is instant, cannot be dodge, storm can be run out of and thus reducing damage greatly. You whine that your marine/marauder that have 3 cheap upgrades get owned by templar that require 2 expensive tech buildings, 2 expensive upgrades, and the unit itself is gas heavy. See the problem guys?
By the way ghost's are insanely good, they basically stop most spells from casting (if the toss can spread well then not everything can be emp'd but you're always going to hit lots) and pretty much half all the Toss' units HP, and the ghost can also get cloak and emp range is huge. I myself find PvT kind of balanced later game, although I feel T can fight muccch more cost effectively, but its the early game that T can really hurt P, with one base all ins (raven/bshee) and denying scouting for awhile with wall offs, forcing P to 1/2gate robo.
Terrans whine because they have no viable tier 3...
On January 08 2011 01:02 Lurk wrote: In most macro games i play vs protoss i have equal or better economy/income, i have little unspend Money (Always Keeping those production facilities running) and i still lose most of them. So please tell me, what more is there to macro that i don't get ? I have the impression that it is my MICRO that's Keeping me from winning the battles, not the MACRO. And having watched my fair share of TvP PrO replays i can tell you that it's not the macro that's Keeping the terrans from winning. It's just that microing mmm(vg) is imo harder to do than microing gateway + placing storms.
On January 25 2011 01:10 TheDemigod wrote: I love that Terran's whine about their tier 1.5 MMM (2 of which are extremely cheap) getting killed by tier 3 gas heavy units. They should own them, they cost twice as much. And for those of you that think storm is greater than emp. Emp is instant, cannot be dodge, storm can be run out of and thus reducing damage greatly. You whine that your marine/marauder that have 3 cheap upgrades get owned by templar that require 2 expensive tech buildings, 2 expensive upgrades, and the unit itself is gas heavy. See the problem guys?
By the way ghost's are insanely good, they basically stop most spells from casting (if the toss can spread well then not everything can be emp'd but you're always going to hit lots) and pretty much half all the Toss' units HP, and the ghost can also get cloak and emp range is huge. I myself find PvT kind of balanced later game, although I feel T can fight muccch more cost effectively, but its the early game that T can really hurt P, with one base all ins (raven/bshee) and denying scouting for awhile with wall offs, forcing P to 1/2gate robo.
Terrans whine because they have no viable tier 3...
Herp derp tanks, thors, banshee, raven, ghost.
The first two are hard countered by immortal/zealot, the last three by HT feedback and/or storms.
When even pros have an extremely hard time getting mech to work (dont say Jinro, hes the exception and not the rule), calling it our viable tier 3 along with the derogatory "herp derp" just shows how little understanding you have of this matchup. Trust me, whatever unit combos the pro players are using: they are the most efficient ones. For TvP, it happens to be infantry-based 95% of the time. Are you trying to say you know a better way to play terran?
Okay so when you say that Immortal/Zealot hard counter tanks and thors, you realise you have these lovely other units that can also counter them too right? It's not like you build a thor and because I have an immortal I win the game. You say that your tier 3 is countered too easily by toss tier 3, well thats the way the game is being played so maybe try moving away from bio because you have units that can counter Toss' tier 3 also. By the way thors smash Immortals thanks to 250mm cannon. The pro players don't simply 1a their 200/200 bio into a protoss army though, if you're going to use a cheap cost efficient army you can't expect to engage directly and smash the other army (although this happens frequently). And those lovely high templar that we have, emp, emp, emp, emp. It's extremely hard to feedback a ghost, and even harder to feedback a cloaked banshee that has raven/marines to take out obs that comes before HT would even be possible to have. Maybe just try tanks sometime and you will be surprised at how insanely strong they are, even when the P has immortals, HT, blink, charge, archons.
Theorycrafting is cute and all, but I can see it going nowhere in this case.
How about you show us some replays to prove the point? A terran player successfully switching to mech play and winning a protoss in a long macro game. Preferrably GSL level.
On January 25 2011 02:18 TheDemigod wrote: Okay so when you say that Immortal/Zealot hard counter tanks and thors, you realise you have these lovely other units that can also counter them too right? It's not like you build a thor and because I have an immortal I win the game. You say that your tier 3 is countered too easily by toss tier 3, well thats the way the game is being played so maybe try moving away from bio because you have units that can counter Toss' tier 3 also. By the way thors smash Immortals thanks to 250mm cannon. The pro players don't simply 1a their 200/200 bio into a protoss army though, if you're going to use a cheap cost efficient army you can't expect to engage directly and smash the other army (although this happens frequently). And those lovely high templar that we have, emp, emp, emp, emp. It's extremely hard to feedback a ghost, and even harder to feedback a cloaked banshee that has raven/marines to take out obs that comes before HT would even be possible to have. Maybe just try tanks sometime and you will be surprised at how insanely strong they are, even when the P has immortals, HT, blink, charge, archons.
1) bio is not viable lategame thx to storm, collossus. Then there is left: thors, banshees, tanks. Tanks and thors are 100% immobile and they are countered by simple immortal play. Pure mech is also countered by collossus + stalker (very mobile, can blink / run up cliffs). Banshees are a joke against HT + stalker.
2) thors smash immortals thanks to the 250mm cannon: true, but only in small fights. In maxed out fights there is no chance to 250mm cannon, try it yourself and you will notice how fast your thor dies while trying to do it.
3) emp emp emp is right, but then your energy is gone and toss warps in 5 fresh HT's. Bye bye bioball.
4) like I said: tanks are immobile. They are awesome but not viable. Check strelok vs naniwa and goody vs naniwa.
On January 25 2011 02:18 TheDemigod wrote: Okay so when you say that Immortal/Zealot hard counter tanks and thors, you realise you have these lovely other units that can also counter them too right? It's not like you build a thor and because I have an immortal I win the game. You say that your tier 3 is countered too easily by toss tier 3, well thats the way the game is being played so maybe try moving away from bio because you have units that can counter Toss' tier 3 also. By the way thors smash Immortals thanks to 250mm cannon. The pro players don't simply 1a their 200/200 bio into a protoss army though, if you're going to use a cheap cost efficient army you can't expect to engage directly and smash the other army (although this happens frequently). And those lovely high templar that we have, emp, emp, emp, emp. It's extremely hard to feedback a ghost, and even harder to feedback a cloaked banshee that has raven/marines to take out obs that comes before HT would even be possible to have. Maybe just try tanks sometime and you will be surprised at how insanely strong they are, even when the P has immortals, HT, blink, charge, archons.
1) bio is not viable lategame thx to storm, collossus. Then there is left: thors, banshees, tanks. Tanks and thors are 100% immobile and they are countered by simple immortal play. Pure mech is also countered by collossus + stalker (very mobile, can blink / run up cliffs). Banshees are a joke against HT + stalker.
2) thors smash immortals thanks to the 250mm cannon: true, but only in small fights. In maxed out fights there is no chance to 250mm cannon, try it yourself and you will notice how fast your thor dies while trying to do it.
3) emp emp emp is right, but then your energy is gone and toss warps in 5 fresh HT's. Bye bye bioball.
4) like I said: tanks are immobile. They are awesome but not viable. Check strelok vs naniwa and goody vs naniwa.
Yes, bio isn't quite viable late game, and it shouldn't be. A protoss army isnt very mobile too you know, it basically has to stay together at all times. From the games I've played, tanks demolish zealots/stalkers, and marines take care of the immortals. So with emp, you're saying you demolish their army very cost effectively with tier 1.5 units and you worried about a few HT finishing off you army? Tank's are obviously viable, don't just say they aren't viable, because there are plenty of games around, that I've seen and that I've played, in which tanks are used very well PvT.
On January 25 2011 02:30 Bagi wrote: Theorycrafting is cute and all, but I can see it going nowhere in this case.
How about you show us some replays to prove the point? A terran player successfully switching to mech play and winning a protoss in a long macro game. Preferrably GSL level.
Come on, teach us lowly terran peons how to play!
Have you seen Jinro vs MC? It's quite a good example.
It just kind of blows my mind that T's complain about their low tech units battling cost effectively up until very late game.
it's true that the later tech units of terran are not as easy to use as mmm. you might actually have to think about positioning and compositions and how you engage etc, which I know might be difficult at first. I think the problem is a lot of terrans don't really have a lot of experience using these different compositions in the late game but when they are used effectively they are way more cost effective than bio in the later stages of the game.
On January 25 2011 02:48 Alejandrisha wrote: it's true that the later tech units of terran are not as easy to use as mmm. you might actually have to think about positioning and compositions and how you engage etc, which I know might be difficult at first. I think the problem is a lot of terrans don't really have a lot of experience using these different compositions in the late game but when they are used effectively they are way more cost effective than bio in the later stages of the game.
On January 25 2011 02:30 Bagi wrote: Theorycrafting is cute and all, but I can see it going nowhere in this case.
How about you show us some replays to prove the point? A terran player successfully switching to mech play and winning a protoss in a long macro game. Preferrably GSL level.
On January 25 2011 02:30 Bagi wrote: Theorycrafting is cute and all, but I can see it going nowhere in this case.
How about you show us some replays to prove the point? A terran player successfully switching to mech play and winning a protoss in a long macro game. Preferrably GSL level.
Come on, teach us lowly terran peons how to play!
You're trolling, right?
You were trying to prove your point right? Just post some replays is all he's asking.
No I havent seen Jinro's games, I only mentioned them to be an expection because I'm a psychic.
Gold-level protoss can call tanks and thors stronger options until the cows come home, but the truth is that until the matchup has a paradigm shift towards people using them, they simply arent. No amount of half-assed theorycrafting will change that. Jinro did great, I'll give you that. Now lets see if other people start doing the same, and succeed with it. I kinda doubt it.
I think its amusing to that you guys are indirectly telling people like MKP and MVP to learn to think about positioning and how to engage the protoss army with new unit compositions. They actually know the terran race inside out, they know what its capable of, and they go MMM. Just stop.
On January 25 2011 03:01 Bagi wrote: No I havent seen Jinro's games, I only mentioned them to be an expection because I'm a psychic.
Gold-level protoss can call tanks and thors stronger options until the cows come home, but the truth is that until the matchup has a paradigm shift towards people using them, they simply arent. No amount of half-assed theorycrafting will change that. Jinro did great, I'll give you that. Now lets see if other people start doing the same, and succeed with it. I kinda doubt it.
I think its amusing to that you guys are indirectly telling people like MKP and MVP to learn to think about positioning and how to engage the protoss army with new unit compositions. They actually know the terran race inside out, they know what its capable of, and they go MMM. Just stop.
People like MKP and MVP generally go for massive 1 or 2 base all in plays instead of looking toward the late game for the win. Terran is extremely powerful in these shorter types of games, which is why most high level terrans go for such strategies. The people in this thread, however, are asking about how to play the late game against protoss, which is a different strategy entirely. These same people would probably have more success with straight 2 base play, but if they want to play for the later game, then these new unit composition certainly have a place.
Sorry didn't realise you were the same person. I'm not sure but most of MVP's games that I've seen have been a lot of strong all ins rather than MK's TvT sort of style. You seem to understand that Jinro makes them work but refuse to believe that anyone else can do the same, this makes little sense, his army was clearly strong verse protoss. Anyway I'm not going to keep trying to help you because I'm just as QQ about PvT and how strong bio is.
How many times do I have to repeat it? Jinro won with mech because 1) on lost temple: mc attacked into jinro's bunkers and failed. Then jinro contained him. In this scenario I always win my tvp, 100%. 2) on scrap station: small map with very few ways to the enemy base + WRONG unit composition from mc. Jinro scouted his carriers and had enough vikings.
--> In both games there were a maximum of 3 bases taken by mc...
To the guy suggesting MARINES to support your mech: 1 storm and they die. They are NOT viable late game.
To the guy saying that you need a good composition and good positioning: what composition? Mech is mech. You can add air and you can add bio. Both will be destroyed. While you are positioning with mech, your opponent is expanding and countering your mech with air.
Those people talking about "the right unit composition": I wonder what composition can compete with protoss lategame...
Just watch those 2 replays from goody and strelok and see what a joke mechplay actually is, unless the protoss doesn't expand like a zerg and just makes stalker+zealot + ht.
On January 25 2011 03:01 Bagi wrote: No I havent seen Jinro's games, I only mentioned them to be an expection because I'm a psychic.
Gold-level protoss can call tanks and thors stronger options until the cows come home, but the truth is that until the matchup has a paradigm shift towards people using them, they simply arent. No amount of half-assed theorycrafting will change that. Jinro did great, I'll give you that. Now lets see if other people start doing the same, and succeed with it. I kinda doubt it.
I think its amusing to that you guys are indirectly telling people like MKP and MVP to learn to think about positioning and how to engage the protoss army with new unit compositions. They actually know the terran race inside out, they know what its capable of, and they go MMM. Just stop.
People like MKP and MVP generally go for massive 1 or 2 base all in plays instead of looking toward the late game for the win. Terran is extremely powerful in these shorter types of games, which is why most high level terrans go for such strategies. The people in this thread, however, are asking about how to play the late game against protoss, which is a different strategy entirely. These same people would probably have more success with straight 2 base play, but if they want to play for the later game, then these new unit composition certainly have a place.
I agree that the bio domination of early game is strong and should by all mean be utilized. Thats why I was curious to see replays of a terran player succesfully switching towards a mech-oriented play above, as it would be a more realistic scenario. A terran utilizing his strong early army and then switching towards a tier 3 army as the toss gets his, but the problem is, this never happens. I think its too simply too costly and the payoff is too small, as you could be just sticking to bio... But then eventually you'll run into the HT/colossi wall.
I think its a little weird that the terran has to decide from the very start to go mech just to have the possibility to make it in a macro game. There simply is no smooth transition. It doesnt help that mech hasnt really proven itself to be effective either.
On January 25 2011 03:01 Bagi wrote: No I havent seen Jinro's games, I only mentioned them to be an expection because I'm a psychic.
Gold-level protoss can call tanks and thors stronger options until the cows come home, but the truth is that until the matchup has a paradigm shift towards people using them, they simply arent. No amount of half-assed theorycrafting will change that. Jinro did great, I'll give you that. Now lets see if other people start doing the same, and succeed with it. I kinda doubt it.
I think its amusing to that you guys are indirectly telling people like MKP and MVP to learn to think about positioning and how to engage the protoss army with new unit compositions. They actually know the terran race inside out, they know what its capable of, and they go MMM. Just stop.
People like MKP and MVP generally go for massive 1 or 2 base all in plays instead of looking toward the late game for the win. Terran is extremely powerful in these shorter types of games, which is why most high level terrans go for such strategies. The people in this thread, however, are asking about how to play the late game against protoss, which is a different strategy entirely. These same people would probably have more success with straight 2 base play, but if they want to play for the later game, then these new unit composition certainly have a place.
I agree that the bio domination of early game is strong and should by all mean be utilized. Thats why I was curious to see replays of a terran player succesfully switching towards a mech-oriented play above, as it would be a more realistic scenario. A terran utilizing his strong early army and then switching towards a tier 3 army as the toss gets his, but the problem is, this never happens. I think its too simply too costly and the payoff is too small, as you could be just sticking to bio... But then eventually you'll run into the HT/colossi wall.
I think its a little weird that the terran has to decide from the very start to go mech just to have the possibility to make it in a macro game. There simply is no smooth transition. It doesnt help that mech hasnt really proven itself to be effective either.
Btw, the Jinro games were mostly 2 base as well.
Sorry, so you'd like to dominate early game, AND late game with a single build? Sure thing. If you're worried about hitting HT/Collosi, then I guess you're just going to have to man up and make a switch aren't you. All P's would love to go straight for HT tech but it just doesn't work that way. I however do think that ghost/bio is extremely strong as emp is just intensely powerful once you hit like 4-6 ghosts. It's like an instant 1000 damage and draining of all energy. It's really what smashes me in most PvT's.
I'd love to switch, but the problem is that its not viable. Bio is too much of an investment to be effective in the early game. You need separate upgrades, production facitilies, everything.
Ghosts are fun but hardly compete with HT's that build in 5 seconds anywhere on the map. They actually deal real damage too.
Mech works swimmingly in a few specific situations, as Jinro showed against MC. It's fantastic when you can abuse tanks in such a way to prevent counters, so close positions on maps or on very small maps. You have to open mech to make it work (atleast as far as we've seen). I've done a ton of mech play since that Jinro game, and beyond those situations I mentioned bio, even late game, is much better even if it dies in droves to storms.
The people in this thread are looking for a way to transition into some of those vaunted tier 3 Terran units you are saying T's should use. If you open bio (which you seem to think they should) then its very difficult to transition to something other then bio. It's not just some trivial thing, 'Just start building bigger units!'.
TheDemigod, you can complain about ghosts all you want but it doesn't change the general consensus that Khaydarin Amulet > bio play. It is definatly an uphill battle, and you agree with that sentiment earlier when you call Terran's stupid for thinking bio and Ghosts should beat HT. But if you're going to grant that HT defeats bio, please don't complain that Ghosts are the most amazing thing ever later. And I'm sorry that you think tanks destroy zealots. Not sure where you got that impression.
mech is most useful in the late game as a backbone rather than the entirety of your army. a thor or 2 bolstors the livelihood of your bio immensely. most of the time a gaggle of zealots will wrap around the thor as your bio melts them.. even mixing in blue hellions does ridiculous amounts of damage to late game protoss armies which are usually chargelot heavy . blue helions can also snipe ht in the back of a protoss ball and harass probe lines all game tanks are nice to have on certain maps ie jungle basin to cut the map in half and metal to deny gold expos all game. it's true that early on phoenixes can deal with tanks relatively well but as tank numbers go up there is no longer a way to deal with them in a cost effective manner. what, is the protoss going to make 15 phoenixes to lift every tank?? immortals are the natural answer, but they have 5 range and more often than not get stuck in the middle/back of the protoss army. not to mention 1 emp renders them absolutely useless against tanks besides the damage they will probably not end up doing.
On January 25 2011 03:56 Alejandrisha wrote: mech is most useful in the late game as a backbone rather than the entirety of your army. a thor or 2 bolstors the livelihood of your bio immensely. most of the time a gaggle of zealots will wrap around the thor as your bio melts them.. even mixing in blue hellions does ridiculous amounts of damage to late game protoss armies which are usually chargelot heavy . blue helions can also snipe ht in the back of a protoss ball and harass probe lines all game tanks are nice to have on certain maps ie jungle basin to cut the map in half and metal to deny gold expos all game. it's true that early on phoenixes can deal with tanks relatively well but as tank numbers go up there is no longer a way to deal with them in a cost effective manner. what, is the protoss going to make 15 phoenixes to lift every tank?? immortals are the natural answer, but they have 5 range and more often than not get stuck in the middle/back of the protoss army. not to mention 1 emp renders them absolutely useless against tanks besides the damage they will probably not end up doing.
only a toss would say something like this
a lot of it is true but not in the extent you seem te belive like the thor, you say the cargelots take out the thor but die to the bio, but the thors is very gass expensive and the chargelots do their part which is tanking damage so that the true dmg dealers can do their job....
and here i thought the purpose of this thread was to have a discussion. if you want i can post you replays when i get home. but for now don't sit there and say everything that i've experienced in the matchup is invalid because of my race. how about you post replays where mech transitions performed by non-retarded terrans absolutely failed and if you can post as many of those as i can of good terrans pulling it off successfully we can agree to disagree
i apologize if i come off sounding like an ass hole in these posts. i am not telling terrans how to play. i am just saying that if terran stays on bio in the late game, i feel i have a very high chance to win the game BUT i have seen that when terrans make late game ADDITIONS not exactly transitions but add say, ghosts and tanks, or thor + ghosts + hellions to their mmm, the game becomes significantly more difficult for me. it is true that in small numbers, bio is the way to go. but in management games you will want bio to bounce around and to be mobile with, but in large engagements you don't want to only have 5 and 6 range units with low hp against units with aoe damage and very high dps.
On January 25 2011 03:56 Alejandrisha wrote: mech is most useful in the late game as a backbone rather than the entirety of your army. a thor or 2 bolstors the livelihood of your bio immensely. most of the time a gaggle of zealots will wrap around the thor as your bio melts them.. even mixing in blue hellions does ridiculous amounts of damage to late game protoss armies which are usually chargelot heavy . blue helions can also snipe ht in the back of a protoss ball and harass probe lines all game tanks are nice to have on certain maps ie jungle basin to cut the map in half and metal to deny gold expos all game. it's true that early on phoenixes can deal with tanks relatively well but as tank numbers go up there is no longer a way to deal with them in a cost effective manner. what, is the protoss going to make 15 phoenixes to lift every tank?? immortals are the natural answer, but they have 5 range and more often than not get stuck in the middle/back of the protoss army. not to mention 1 emp renders them absolutely useless against tanks besides the damage they will probably not end up doing.
only a toss would say something like this
a lot of it is true but not in the extent you seem te belive like the thor, you say the cargelots take out the thor but die to the bio, but the thors is very gass expensive and the chargelots do their part which is tanking damage so that the true dmg dealers can do their job....
On January 25 2011 03:56 Alejandrisha wrote: mech is most useful in the late game as a backbone rather than the entirety of your army. a thor or 2 bolstors the livelihood of your bio immensely. most of the time a gaggle of zealots will wrap around the thor as your bio melts them.. even mixing in blue hellions does ridiculous amounts of damage to late game protoss armies which are usually chargelot heavy . blue helions can also snipe ht in the back of a protoss ball and harass probe lines all game tanks are nice to have on certain maps ie jungle basin to cut the map in half and metal to deny gold expos all game. it's true that early on phoenixes can deal with tanks relatively well but as tank numbers go up there is no longer a way to deal with them in a cost effective manner. what, is the protoss going to make 15 phoenixes to lift every tank?? immortals are the natural answer, but they have 5 range and more often than not get stuck in the middle/back of the protoss army. not to mention 1 emp renders them absolutely useless against tanks besides the damage they will probably not end up doing.
only a toss would say something like this
a lot of it is true but not in the extent you seem te belive like the thor, you say the cargelots take out the thor but die to the bio, but the thors is very gass expensive and the chargelots do their part which is tanking damage so that the true dmg dealers can do their job....
Zealots do more damage than stalkers O.o
not in an actual battle, they die too fast to do any real dmg they act as tanks against the high dps terran bio balls
On January 25 2011 04:58 Alejandrisha wrote: i apologize if i come off sounding like an ass hole in these posts. i am not telling terrans how to play. i am just saying that if terran stays on bio in the late game, i feel i have a very high chance to win the game BUT i have seen that when terrans make late game ADDITIONS not exactly transitions but add say, ghosts and tanks, or thor + ghosts + hellions to their mmm, the game becomes significantly more difficult for me. it is true that in small numbers, bio is the way to go. but in management games you will want bio to bounce around and to be mobile with, but in large engagements you don't want to only have 5 and 6 range units with low hp against units with aoe damage and very high dps.
the problem is the production facilities you usualy have like 10 rax and 1-2 reactor starports with bio so making mech units takes a long time to build the factories and even longer to get a good ammount off
I like how terran can QQ even when they have more then enough *imba* mechanics etc etc, I mean you have mules scans flying buildings food that can lower etc etc, then i hear that the counter to mech is immortal/zealot ... i mean lol as if you cant mix in 2-3 ghosts into your mech play wich totally negate the effect of immortals cause they have 0 shield etc etc, also go check gsl if you want to see how 'bad' terran is doing against protoss, I mean there are games where P has and collosi and HT and still gets owned by bio ballss.... ye indeed damn imba toss and his imba storm! I would not be suprised if the next nerf hammer is going to rain down on terran expecially the bio play. And yes I do think Mech play is viable against toss you just have to get more then 2 units. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think there is no actual reason to complain about imbalance in PvT atm, you just have to adept your play maybe yoúr playstyle is just not good enough to make mech viable maybe it is, try it adapt your build etc etc.
yes mech is a good transition lategame, no you dont make a pure mech army for lots of reasons, and yes pvt is imba due to how effectively the zealot/ht combination deals with everything but mass thors. No emp dont help against templars.
Stim is imba early in close position maps, every terran can admit it.
Immortals are actually not such a good choice against mech as you might think. Due to the fact that even a tank's splash deals up to 10 damage to their shields, a ball of tanks kills of a ball of immortals rather quickly - you need to hit critical tank mass for this to work though. Also, blue flame hellions are an excellent meat shield and blocker unit for tanks. The better choice to go against a meching terran is to just go air. It doesn't really matter if it's voidrays or phoenixes, both will force the terran to invest heavily into vikings and cut heavily into his tank counts.
I can't possibly read 38 pages of this but my take is that yeah, TvP isn't quite balanced. It seems to me the Terran always has to find a way around the system rather than working within it. My own TvP right now comes to working out faster and faster attacking times because I've decided cutting it before colossi isn't safe enough, as he can still try some fast fourgate warp-in stalkers or whatever.
From my perspective, Protoss seems to have all the control in the matchup,
To start they could proxy gate, cannon rush or dt rush. All of these are instant wins if they aren't scouted soon enough. The dt rush and proxy gate can be especially difficult to scout making any build that doesn't adequately prepare for these somewhat risky.
4 Gate is also an extremely effective build that will roll over a terran who isn't prepared with bunkers. (Look at Jinro vs MC game 2. He had two bunkers and barely held it off). Again, this can be hard to scout.
The biggest problem for terran is a reliable way to scout. Sure, they have scans, but scans are severely limited and usually don't tell you anything. Zerg seems to have this problem as well. Protoss have it easy with a mobile scan that costs less and lasts forever.
sure cause protoss doesnt get forced into getting robo (banshees etc) and sentries by terran, they can just do everything. I see there is no explaining this to you guys, easy as that terrans say P imba derp op. Protoss say terran imba. I'm with protoss cause I've seen enough in gsl to know that its just redicelous how effective a tier 1/2 army of terran can be just stimming and throwing down 2-3 emps to insta gib everything
On January 25 2011 08:46 pit__ wrote: From my perspective, Protoss seems to have all the control in the matchup,
To start they could proxy gate, cannon rush or dt rush. All of these are instant wins if they aren't scouted soon enough. The dt rush and proxy gate can be especially difficult to scout making any build that doesn't adequately prepare for these somewhat risky.
4 Gate is also an extremely effective build that will roll over a terran who isn't prepared with bunkers. (Look at Jinro vs MC game 2. He had two bunkers and barely held it off). Again, this can be hard to scout.
The biggest problem for terran is a reliable way to scout. Sure, they have scans, but scans are severely limited and usually don't tell you anything. Zerg seems to have this problem as well. Protoss have it easy with a mobile scan that costs less and lasts forever.
Dude seriously, build a fucking reaper for once in your life.
Also 4gate is definitely not all that effective against T. Simply because the MM combo with stim just demolishes any warpgate unit.
I've got maybe a 5% win ratio vs toss right now : / (2650 Master League) I can find no strategy at all that works consistently or lets me adapt. I am always behind and never gain any real footing unless the toss is a sub-par player. It's hurting my brain how my TvZ and TvT are 80-90% win ratios and soon as I see a P come up in the match making I know i've already lost. Collosus are just too damn good, high templar being spread almost neutralizes ghosts, zealots really don't seem to have a counter at all beyond marines which are eaten alive by the toss t3 units (and please don't just say kite them, I am talking about when you're in a fight where the toss is using force fields as well). Takes me 50% longer to match the protoss economy in fast expand builds and even then I can't pressure them when I attack due to force fields or fast collosus tech.
And don't even get me started on 4-gate rushes >< Build is still way too strong, you ethier barley hold them off or die outright because you didn't use a scan to scout their base since the stalker at entrance prevents scouting. Or you scan, find it and build 2-3 bunkers and then they come in with 2-3 sentries to prevent repairing the bunker. Honestly just plain cannot find any strategy at all that works vs a protoss outside of having outmacro'd or micro'd them to such a degree that they might as well be 1000+ points below you.
On January 25 2011 08:57 JDeathmetal wrote: sure cause protoss doesnt get forced into getting robo (banshees etc) and sentries by terran, they can just do everything. I see there is no explaining this to you guys, easy as that terrans say P imba derp op. Protoss say terran imba. I'm with protoss cause I've seen enough in gsl to know that its just redicelous how effective a tier 1/2 army of terran can be just stimming and throwing down 2-3 emps to insta gib everything
You guys get obs anyway because its like a scan that can move...and doesnt lose you 270 minerals...Sure you are forced to get it early due to banshee but you realize what a huge investment cloak banshees are if you want them to be effective? Theres a reason why we cant expand and get cloaked banshees at the same time AND having a decent amount of ground units early on to survive any push, or else then I'd agree that it is difficult for protoss to deal with. Getting a robo (which you would want anyway very soon) is not a huge investment that won't be as effective later on.
Also, I can say the same about EMP to storm and forcefields. If we dont pay attention to an expo for a second we can lose all scvs there to like 1 templar with a decent amount of energy. Then, if we're moving an army and dont control it properly in a narrow path we could lose half of it easy with good forcefields. The same way protoss can place good forcefields, we can place good EMPs.
Dude seriously, build a fucking reaper for once in your life.
Also 4gate is definitely not all that effective against T. Simply because the MM combo with stim just demolishes any warpgate unit.
Have you ever seen a 4gate on delta quadrant vs terran that goes for anything that isn't 2-3 rax opener? It goes without saying that 4gate is so fearful on a map like this and jungle basin. The reason why we don't always go 2-3 rax openers on delta is because we can not be 100% sure if you are going for a 4gate or dt rush. Sure, we can push with 2-3 rax but a sentry or two can delay it for too long giving you so much time for the DTs.
On January 25 2011 09:03 Talack wrote: I've got maybe a 5% win ratio vs toss right now : / (2650 Master League) I can find no strategy at all that works consistently or lets me adapt. I am always behind and never gain any real footing unless the toss is a sub-par player. It's hurting my brain how my TvZ and TvT are 80-90% win ratios and soon as I see a P come up in the match making I know i've already lost. Collosus are just too damn good, high templar being spread almost neutralizes ghosts, zealots really don't seem to have a counter at all beyond marines which are eaten alive by the toss t3 units (and please don't just say kite them, I am talking about when you're in a fight where the toss is using force fields as well). Takes me 50% longer to match the protoss economy in fast expand builds and even then I can't pressure them when I attack due to force fields or fast collosus tech.
And don't even get me started on 4-gate rushes >< Build is still way too strong, you ethier barley hold them off or die outright because you didn't use a scan to scout their base since the stalker at entrance prevents scouting. Or you scan, find it and build 2-3 bunkers and then they come in with 2-3 sentries to prevent repairing the bunker. Honestly just plain cannot find any strategy at all that works vs a protoss outside of having outmacro'd or micro'd them to such a degree that they might as well be 1000+ points below you.
I'd have to agree here, and at the same level or higher. Once you start facing really good protoss players with great forcefields and good templar spread, it doesnt even matter how good you micro either because if anything works for them(either good forcefields or storm), we will lose our army super fast. Also with 4gate rushes, if it fails for him he can just grab 2nd gas and just sit outside your base with a much stronger army while expanding behind it. Then once he gets sentries you HAVE to tech to medivacs before moving outside your base or else you will just get FF'd on ramp and lose everything. The only success I've had mid-late game is when I'm either equal on bases or 1 base ahead. Harrasing with drops just falls apart once they get enough gateways because they just summon in units at drop location that outnumbers the dropship units.
Tvp is sorta favored for p since of all the nerfs. The thing is that though tvp p is slightly stronger, lets say, Terran is known for its variety. P is for its strength. THere are many many many hard counters to protoss. EMPS, Marauders, Thors are really good, and vikings for all air, colossi and still good on ground. obs is very good though, and i also thing they shouldn't have buffed it though. But still. TvP is good, but only if you go OP units, which i hardly think fair but its true
Have you ever seen a 4gate on delta quadrant vs terran that goes for anything that isn't 2-3 rax opener? It goes without saying that 4gate is so fearful on a map like this and jungle basin. The reason why we don't always go 2-3 rax openers on delta is because we can not be 100% sure if you are going for a 4gate or dt rush. Sure, we can push with 2-3 rax but a sentry or two can delay it for too long giving you so much time for the DTs.
Why is delta quadrant strong for 4gates? And if you T's are getting smashed by P's, mind showing some replays, because I have plenty of trouble in PvT.
If you believe there is a tech switch to mech that is possible that isn't a play that requires your opponent to mess up, then you need to go to the unit tester and try 200vs200.
There is no stable mech composition at 200 that can reliably beat 200 P at any reasonable end game scenario.
Have you ever seen a 4gate on delta quadrant vs terran that goes for anything that isn't 2-3 rax opener? It goes without saying that 4gate is so fearful on a map like this and jungle basin. The reason why we don't always go 2-3 rax openers on delta is because we can not be 100% sure if you are going for a 4gate or dt rush. Sure, we can push with 2-3 rax but a sentry or two can delay it for too long giving you so much time for the DTs.
Why is delta quadrant strong for 4gates? And if you T's are getting smashed by P's, mind showing some replays, because I have plenty of trouble in PvT.
Its really easy to contain your opponent and the pylon Backdoor trick is ubber annoying.
Have you ever seen a 4gate on delta quadrant vs terran that goes for anything that isn't 2-3 rax opener? It goes without saying that 4gate is so fearful on a map like this and jungle basin. The reason why we don't always go 2-3 rax openers on delta is because we can not be 100% sure if you are going for a 4gate or dt rush. Sure, we can push with 2-3 rax but a sentry or two can delay it for too long giving you so much time for the DTs.
Why is delta quadrant strong for 4gates? And if you T's are getting smashed by P's, mind showing some replays, because I have plenty of trouble in PvT.
You can make a pylon next to his back door expansion and summon in units there while moving from the front. In this case, the terran is vulnerable at both locations because he WON'T have enough units to deal with the front unless he has everything there. This is especially the case if he goes for 1/1/1, which a lot of people do to help nullify alot of protoss openers(other than 4gate, which is best held off with 2-3 bunkers because of 1 entrance of units to your base, but not on delta because of the back door expo)
Have you ever seen a 4gate on delta quadrant vs terran that goes for anything that isn't 2-3 rax opener? It goes without saying that 4gate is so fearful on a map like this and jungle basin. The reason why we don't always go 2-3 rax openers on delta is because we can not be 100% sure if you are going for a 4gate or dt rush. Sure, we can push with 2-3 rax but a sentry or two can delay it for too long giving you so much time for the DTs.
Why is delta quadrant strong for 4gates? And if you T's are getting smashed by P's, mind showing some replays, because I have plenty of trouble in PvT.
You can make a pylon next to his back door expansion and summon in units there while moving from the front. In this case, the terran is vulnerable at both locations because he WON'T have enough units to deal with the front unless he has everything there. This is especially the case if he goes for 1/1/1, which a lot of people do to help nullify alot of protoss openers(other than 4gate, which is best held off with 2-3 bunkers because of 1 entrance of units to your base, but not on delta because of the back door expo)
So put a spotting depot at the back, bunker up when you see the 4gate coming, make sure you have stim up. Because I used to play T and I would love it when I spotted a 4gate coming because my 3rax would crush it because of marauder+stim basically. If you hold off a 4gate you've basically won unless he did very significant damage. You can simply build an expo inside your main while he tries to contain/expand, because if a 4gate fails you have to expand immediately, and even then you're way behind obviously.
If you are having trouble against terran just watch some recent Whitera replays. Dude just won 3 tournaments and came 2nd in a 4th one, all against terran opponents IIRC. His PvT is pretty damn solid right now.
Have you ever seen a 4gate on delta quadrant vs terran that goes for anything that isn't 2-3 rax opener? It goes without saying that 4gate is so fearful on a map like this and jungle basin. The reason why we don't always go 2-3 rax openers on delta is because we can not be 100% sure if you are going for a 4gate or dt rush. Sure, we can push with 2-3 rax but a sentry or two can delay it for too long giving you so much time for the DTs.
Why is delta quadrant strong for 4gates? And if you T's are getting smashed by P's, mind showing some replays, because I have plenty of trouble in PvT.
You can make a pylon next to his back door expansion and summon in units there while moving from the front. In this case, the terran is vulnerable at both locations because he WON'T have enough units to deal with the front unless he has everything there. This is especially the case if he goes for 1/1/1, which a lot of people do to help nullify alot of protoss openers(other than 4gate, which is best held off with 2-3 bunkers because of 1 entrance of units to your base, but not on delta because of the back door expo)
So put a spotting depot at the back, bunker up when you see the 4gate coming, make sure you have stim up. Because I used to play T and I would love it when I spotted a 4gate coming because my 3rax would crush it because of marauder+stim basically. If you hold off a 4gate you've basically won unless he did very significant damage. You can simply build an expo inside your main while he tries to contain/expand, because if a 4gate fails you have to expand immediately, and even then you're way behind obviously.
I already do this, but it doesnt matter because like I said you need like 2 bunkers to make it work. else he can just run past the bunker and then you're in huge trouble. Sorry but I don't 3rax every game vs protoss just to be really safe to 4gate, it doesnt work that way.
I just love that argument in the OP of 'in this replay, x race player played really well and I thought they would win and did not, so I took this as evidence that y race must be overpowered'. To me that implies a shallow analysis. And then the question 'what could x player have done?' is so broad it's barely answerable. It should be immediately obvious there were hundreds of things they could have done, unless you think toss is so OP that T can only win if Protoss plays at a much lower skill level than them. And that's a) dumb and b) basically unprovable. So basically we've got a bunch of assertions and arguments that cannot be proven and a question that cannot be answered.
As for 4gates, these days everyone knows a dozen ways to hold it off. I go 2 rax expand and hold them off with relative ease. Everyone gets caught out by one every so often, but so what? As someone said, you hold it off and 9 times out of 10 you are a mile ahead.
On 4gates on DQ, just look in your backdoor nat for a pylon.
Have you ever seen a 4gate on delta quadrant vs terran that goes for anything that isn't 2-3 rax opener? It goes without saying that 4gate is so fearful on a map like this and jungle basin. The reason why we don't always go 2-3 rax openers on delta is because we can not be 100% sure if you are going for a 4gate or dt rush. Sure, we can push with 2-3 rax but a sentry or two can delay it for too long giving you so much time for the DTs.
Why is delta quadrant strong for 4gates? And if you T's are getting smashed by P's, mind showing some replays, because I have plenty of trouble in PvT.
You can make a pylon next to his back door expansion and summon in units there while moving from the front. In this case, the terran is vulnerable at both locations because he WON'T have enough units to deal with the front unless he has everything there. This is especially the case if he goes for 1/1/1, which a lot of people do to help nullify alot of protoss openers(other than 4gate, which is best held off with 2-3 bunkers because of 1 entrance of units to your base, but not on delta because of the back door expo)
So put a spotting depot at the back, bunker up when you see the 4gate coming, make sure you have stim up. Because I used to play T and I would love it when I spotted a 4gate coming because my 3rax would crush it because of marauder+stim basically. If you hold off a 4gate you've basically won unless he did very significant damage. You can simply build an expo inside your main while he tries to contain/expand, because if a 4gate fails you have to expand immediately, and even then you're way behind obviously.
He is talking about when u do 1-1-1 in DQ which is not really viable. Since the only way to hold 4gate with 1-1-1 is placing 2 or 3 bunkers and bringing scv. Banshee arrives to late and the 2 doors at DQ make it impossible. If you do 3rax, it sure works well vs 4gate and fast expand but other than that, its a terrible opening. And protoss does not have to all in with 4gate, many of them expand afterwards.
Beating a protoss in my experience is only possible playing perfectly and rely on protoss not abusing the matchup. And once it gets to late game the only way u can win is being way superior in upgrades or in macro.
The problem with mech is the early game. He can be agressive and you will strugle or just take the complete map. If ur going mech u wont be able to leave ur base until u have a huge army. Which leaves the protoss to react and tech to everything. in Jinro vs MC, MC had a ton of mistakes losing his whole army trying to break Jinro's defense and not reacting properly. Jinro played way superiorly.
I think Terran suffers from a similar problem that BW zerg had. We need major amounts of gas to effectively counter a Toss; this game has reached a point where bio+medivacs will not work anymore.
The timing in this game is all wrong; The window where terran cannot move out b/c he's teching or massing is huge compared to the toss timing window because of warp gates and chrono. This mean it takes longer for a terran to mass factories and mass units, meaning weaker map control and no 3rd expo. Macro terran will never win vs macro toss. Terran must push during a timing where the toss is weak, which doesn't exist for very long.
I've heard so many terrans make these statements and I'm always confused. I play toss and my pvt is my worst matchup and has been since day 1. I'm about 60% wins vs P and Z but I'm about 22% wins vs terran. I usually win if its a long game, but the thing I can't deal with is terrans who apply constant pressure and force me to make lots of sentries which delays my tech. The other issue is I get stuck on 1 base for too long, yet whenever I take my natural early, I get punished and just loose outright when it goes down and terrans expo goes up. The main problem for me is a high pressure terran who forces the FF so I don't die (because before I get colossus or storm his infantry can just roll my army easily without good ff) but the gas cost delays my tech and then they start doing drops and target the tech I've put so much resources into. I can't tell you how many games I've played where I kill the terran army over and over (and have a handful of units left) and the first time I loose my army its game over. Terrans can do so much damage with harass, banshees, hellions (which can kill all of your workers even when you see them coming) and mm drops. Toss just feels very weak in the harass department.
Obviously, late game isn't an issue for me, amulet is insane and colossus at critical mass are insane as well. But early game I just get suffocated by pressure and nothing I can make except FF can deal with terrans infantry well. It's just so hard to get enough gas to have an army that can keep me alive and get colossus or HT's out. After every battle I loose units have to spend a lot of gas to replace them. Terrans have just gotten so good at baiting force fields. Many times they get 1 early ghost and emp my units. I honestly don't see why so many terrans bitch about storm. 80 damage, but most of it can be dodged and it's very expensive to tech to (which weakens my army as I'm waiting for it) But emp doesn't even have to be researched, does 100 dmg to shields and is instant and can't be dodged. It also counters HT and FF. Also, the ghosts can cloak. Now, imagine if storm worked like that and didn't have to be researched. I wish I understood better what these toss are doing that is making the terrans feel like they're op. I for the life of me cannot figure this matchup out from the protoss side. If I expo to early or tech to early I just die.
BTW terrans have no right bitching about gas cost in this matchup. Compare the cost of colossus to the cost of vikings, the cost of psi storm to the cost of ghost, compare the cost of gateway units to the cost of rax units. Compare the cost of twilight, to tech labs, or temp archive + storm to ghost academy for emp. After a cyber core, it takes 800 gas to get 1 colossus with range. So please, Terrans don't bitch about gas costs in this matchup. Your upgrades and tech structures are DIRT CHEAP when compared to toss.
On January 25 2011 03:14 Dente wrote: How many times do I have to repeat it? Jinro won with mech because 1) on lost temple: mc attacked into jinro's bunkers and failed. Then jinro contained him. In this scenario I always win my tvp, 100%. 2) on scrap station: small map with very few ways to the enemy base + WRONG unit composition from mc. Jinro scouted his carriers and had enough vikings.
--> In both games there were a maximum of 3 bases taken by mc...
To the guy suggesting MARINES to support your mech: 1 storm and they die. They are NOT viable late game.
To the guy saying that you need a good composition and good positioning: what composition? Mech is mech. You can add air and you can add bio. Both will be destroyed. While you are positioning with mech, your opponent is expanding and countering your mech with air.
Those people talking about "the right unit composition": I wonder what composition can compete with protoss lategame...
Just watch those 2 replays from goody and strelok and see what a joke mechplay actually is, unless the protoss doesn't expand like a zerg and just makes stalker+zealot + ht.
I guess it is pretty clear that T is too strong in early game and too weak against P in late game. Even blizzard admit it. The patches did not fix this, as the problem lies in the infantries (MMM) with its high DPS and their ease of use.
Early game they are extremely strong, and this strength is the core of the problem (first ghost or viking are only supporting this core "strength" of Terran.) If you weaken them, late game marine will become even worse; however buffing them will also break early game.
To be honest, the only fix can only be done in expansion, we need more options in early game for P and T to defend MMM, then T can have better late game options to balance out. With the small number of unit choice now perfect balance is simply impossible.
On January 25 2011 12:15 DarkwindHK wrote: I guess it is pretty clear that T is too strong in early game and too weak against P in late game. Even blizzard admit it. The patches did not fix this, as the problem lies in the infantries (MMM) with its high DPS and their ease of use.
I basically agree, but could you please show us where blizzard said this?
I am glad I'm not the only one struggling with P right now. For some reason they always seem to Have more units. Also, Toss doesn't need ups at the start, stim and concussive are a must, while warpin is a gimme upgrade. I can't find a good standard either.
On January 25 2011 10:40 Reborn8u wrote:Obviously, late game isn't an issue for me, amulet is insane and colossus at critical mass are insane as well. But early game I just get suffocated by pressure and nothing I can make except FF can deal with terrans infantry well. It's just so hard to get enough gas to have an army that can keep me alive and get colossus or HT's out. After every battle I loose units have to spend a lot of gas to replace them. Terrans have just gotten so good at baiting force fields. Many times they get 1 early ghost and emp my units. I honestly don't see why so many terrans bitch about storm. 80 damage, but most of it can be dodged and it's very expensive to tech to (which weakens my army as I'm waiting for it) But emp doesn't even have to be researched, does 100 dmg to shields and is instant and can't be dodged. It also counters HT and FF. Also, the ghosts can cloak. Now, imagine if storm worked like that and didn't have to be researched. I wish I understood better what these toss are doing that is making the terrans feel like they're op. I for the life of me cannot figure this matchup out from the protoss side. If I expo to early or tech to early I just die.
This sums up the current state of the matchup pretty well. If terran goes bio he has a large timing window where bio >> gateway (basically once stim is finished and until storms/rangecolls come out). This timing window is where terran dominates and toss can't really do anything else than sit in his base and ff his ramp to stall for his tech. However, if the terran fails to kill the toss inside that timing window, it's the other way around - Collossi and/or storm >> bio. Now the terran can't really do anything besides trying to wear down the toss by indirect engagements (hit-and-run, drops).
I'm not saying that the matchup is imbalanced one way or another, i'm just saying that i'm not satisfied with the current situation that i basically have to win the game early (which is very much possible) or fight an uphill battle in the lategame. I don't like to do 1-base timing pushes or allins, but i feel like i'm forced to do these if i want to win. Give me a viable alternative and i will gladly accept it (preferably something that actually works, not some "lol go thors the pwn" bullshit).
On January 25 2011 10:40 Reborn8u wrote:Obviously, late game isn't an issue for me, amulet is insane and colossus at critical mass are insane as well. But early game I just get suffocated by pressure and nothing I can make except FF can deal with terrans infantry well. It's just so hard to get enough gas to have an army that can keep me alive and get colossus or HT's out. After every battle I loose units have to spend a lot of gas to replace them. Terrans have just gotten so good at baiting force fields. Many times they get 1 early ghost and emp my units. I honestly don't see why so many terrans bitch about storm. 80 damage, but most of it can be dodged and it's very expensive to tech to (which weakens my army as I'm waiting for it) But emp doesn't even have to be researched, does 100 dmg to shields and is instant and can't be dodged. It also counters HT and FF. Also, the ghosts can cloak. Now, imagine if storm worked like that and didn't have to be researched. I wish I understood better what these toss are doing that is making the terrans feel like they're op. I for the life of me cannot figure this matchup out from the protoss side. If I expo to early or tech to early I just die.
This sums up the current state of the matchup pretty well. If terran goes bio he has a large timing window where bio >> gateway (basically once stim is finished and until storms/rangecolls come out). This timing window is where terran dominates and toss can't really do anything else than sit in his base and ff his ramp to stall for his tech. However, if the terran fails to kill the toss inside that timing window, it's the other way around - Collossi and/or storm >> bio. Now the terran can't really do anything besides trying to wear down the toss by indirect engagements (hit-and-run, drops).
I'm not saying that the matchup is imbalanced one way or another, i'm just saying that i'm not satisfied with the current situation that i basically have to win the game early (which is very much possible) or fight an uphill battle in the lategame. I don't like to do 1-base timing pushes or allins, but i feel like i'm forced to do these if i want to win. Give me a viable alternative and i will gladly accept it (preferably something that actually works, not some "lol go thors the pwn" bullshit).
You forget 1 thing. That timing where there are no collossae or HT's is very small + so many protoss players underestimate the power of forcefields. Watch mc crushing terrans with forcefields. So it's more like this: - you will have a timing where terran will lose his army thanks to forcefields. - then the collossus enter the play so your bioball will be much weaker - then HT's + amulet enter the game and you will only win if you are much better then your opponent.
Timing window for terran? I don't see it.
I'm one of those terrans that never allins. I prefer to play a macrogame.
On January 25 2011 10:40 Reborn8u wrote:Obviously, late game isn't an issue for me, amulet is insane and colossus at critical mass are insane as well. But early game I just get suffocated by pressure and nothing I can make except FF can deal with terrans infantry well. It's just so hard to get enough gas to have an army that can keep me alive and get colossus or HT's out. After every battle I loose units have to spend a lot of gas to replace them. Terrans have just gotten so good at baiting force fields. Many times they get 1 early ghost and emp my units. I honestly don't see why so many terrans bitch about storm. 80 damage, but most of it can be dodged and it's very expensive to tech to (which weakens my army as I'm waiting for it) But emp doesn't even have to be researched, does 100 dmg to shields and is instant and can't be dodged. It also counters HT and FF. Also, the ghosts can cloak. Now, imagine if storm worked like that and didn't have to be researched. I wish I understood better what these toss are doing that is making the terrans feel like they're op. I for the life of me cannot figure this matchup out from the protoss side. If I expo to early or tech to early I just die.
This sums up the current state of the matchup pretty well. If terran goes bio he has a large timing window where bio >> gateway (basically once stim is finished and until storms/rangecolls come out). This timing window is where terran dominates and toss can't really do anything else than sit in his base and ff his ramp to stall for his tech. However, if the terran fails to kill the toss inside that timing window, it's the other way around - Collossi and/or storm >> bio. Now the terran can't really do anything besides trying to wear down the toss by indirect engagements (hit-and-run, drops).
I'm not saying that the matchup is imbalanced one way or another, i'm just saying that i'm not satisfied with the current situation that i basically have to win the game early (which is very much possible) or fight an uphill battle in the lategame. I don't like to do 1-base timing pushes or allins, but i feel like i'm forced to do these if i want to win. Give me a viable alternative and i will gladly accept it (preferably something that actually works, not some "lol go thors the pwn" bullshit).
You forget 1 thing. That timing where there are no collossae or HT's is very small + so many protoss players underestimate the power of forcefields. Watch mc crushing terrans with forcefields. So it's more like this: - you will have a timing where terran will lose his army thanks to forcefields. - then the collossus enter the play so your bioball will be much weaker - then HT's + amulet enter the game and you will only win if you are much better then your opponent.
Timing window for terran? I don't see it.
I'm one of those terrans that never allins. I prefer to play a macrogame.
I can only again emphasize that I don't understand why you don't use window 1 (from forcefields to colossi) to outexpand while dropping. Forcefields are actually 100% useless against a drop, and if I as a toss have to keep parts of my army at home, there's no way in hell I'm going to attack you with my first colossi when I can't take my whole army with me. So tell me, what prevents you from getting a third at this point? I firmly believe that terran has to be played like toss was played in BW - you outexpand, drop, keep your opponent busy while taking the map. You don't have to be Sjow and drop main and expo at the same time while attacking to beat non-pro toss-players....constant drops at different locations while staying defensive should really prevent your opponent from attacking your third. Getting outexpanded while being on two base is definitely my biggest fear when playing PvT right now.
Terrans dont drop enough in late game. It totally destroys Protoss, cause protoss army is usually 1 big clump, and if you drop in 3 places you can often get better position to attack and take out protoss main army. 4 Marauders drops are just imba! Tos have to either 1) make useless cannons, 2) micro HTs giving terran time to engage without getting force fielded, 3) leave more then 4 marauder worth of army in bases.
Ofcourse it all depends on many factors....
I dont think that P is IMBA in late game, because of T mobility.
On January 25 2011 20:46 sleepingdog wrote:I can only again emphasize that I don't understand why you don't use window 1 (from forcefields to colossi) to outexpand while dropping.
You can of course outexpand the protoss during that timing window. It will give you a head start in economy for the mid-to-lategame. However, even with the income advantage you'll still try to fight high-tech (colls, temps) with low-tech bio. It will give you better chances but in my personal experience you're better off not investing into expansions during your early game timing window and instead try to kill your opponent while you still can.
On January 25 2011 20:48 DrGreen wrote: Terrans dont drop enough in late game. It totally destroys Protoss, cause protoss army is usually 1 big clump, and if you drop in 3 places you can often get better position to attack and take out protoss main army. 4 Marauders drops are just imba! Tos have to either 1) make useless cannons, 2) micro HTs giving terran time to engage without getting force fielded, 3) leave more then 4 marauder worth of army in bases.
Ofcourse it all depends on many factors....
I dont think that P is IMBA in late game, because of T mobility.
Maybe terrans don't drop enough but at least we try. However, you forget that protoss can drop too, and they don't do it nearly often enough. Quite often, protoss open with collossus play and later switch to HTs. As they don't use their robo anymore, they could easily get out 2-3 prisms (at the cost of 4-6 zealots) and start harassing the hell out of the terran. I know that whitera does it and quite successfully so.
On January 25 2011 10:40 Reborn8u wrote:Obviously, late game isn't an issue for me, amulet is insane and colossus at critical mass are insane as well. But early game I just get suffocated by pressure and nothing I can make except FF can deal with terrans infantry well. It's just so hard to get enough gas to have an army that can keep me alive and get colossus or HT's out. After every battle I loose units have to spend a lot of gas to replace them. Terrans have just gotten so good at baiting force fields. Many times they get 1 early ghost and emp my units. I honestly don't see why so many terrans bitch about storm. 80 damage, but most of it can be dodged and it's very expensive to tech to (which weakens my army as I'm waiting for it) But emp doesn't even have to be researched, does 100 dmg to shields and is instant and can't be dodged. It also counters HT and FF. Also, the ghosts can cloak. Now, imagine if storm worked like that and didn't have to be researched. I wish I understood better what these toss are doing that is making the terrans feel like they're op. I for the life of me cannot figure this matchup out from the protoss side. If I expo to early or tech to early I just die.
This sums up the current state of the matchup pretty well. If terran goes bio he has a large timing window where bio >> gateway (basically once stim is finished and until storms/rangecolls come out). This timing window is where terran dominates and toss can't really do anything else than sit in his base and ff his ramp to stall for his tech. However, if the terran fails to kill the toss inside that timing window, it's the other way around - Collossi and/or storm >> bio. Now the terran can't really do anything besides trying to wear down the toss by indirect engagements (hit-and-run, drops).
I'm not saying that the matchup is imbalanced one way or another, i'm just saying that i'm not satisfied with the current situation that i basically have to win the game early (which is very much possible) or fight an uphill battle in the lategame. I don't like to do 1-base timing pushes or allins, but i feel like i'm forced to do these if i want to win. Give me a viable alternative and i will gladly accept it (preferably something that actually works, not some "lol go thors the pwn" bullshit).
You forget 1 thing. That timing where there are no collossae or HT's is very small + so many protoss players underestimate the power of forcefields. Watch mc crushing terrans with forcefields. So it's more like this: - you will have a timing where terran will lose his army thanks to forcefields. - then the collossus enter the play so your bioball will be much weaker - then HT's + amulet enter the game and you will only win if you are much better then your opponent.
Timing window for terran? I don't see it.
I'm one of those terrans that never allins. I prefer to play a macrogame.
I can only again emphasize that I don't understand why you don't use window 1 (from forcefields to colossi) to outexpand while dropping. Forcefields are actually 100% useless against a drop, and if I as a toss have to keep parts of my army at home, there's no way in hell I'm going to attack you with my first colossi when I can't take my whole army with me. So tell me, what prevents you from getting a third at this point? I firmly believe that terran has to be played like toss was played in BW - you outexpand, drop, keep your opponent busy while taking the map. You don't have to be Sjow and drop main and expo at the same time while attacking to beat non-pro toss-players....constant drops at different locations while staying defensive should really prevent your opponent from attacking your third. Getting outexpanded while being on two base is definitely my biggest fear when playing PvT right now.
Why don't terrans outexpand a toss, while having more units than him and teching up simultaneously? Because you cannot tech and expand and mass up units at the same time, or you end up with a half-ass progress in each of the three fields (late expo, late tech and too few units to really do shit).
So which two areas do you focus on?
- Tech and units is popular and leads to the timing pushes. But they have a tendency to be foiled by aggressive 4 gate pushes or 3 gate voidray, that hit before you have your high tech units (raven/banshee/thor) ready. Also toss turtling on one base will give you trouble, because force field can deny your ground troops access (Thor rushes deny force fields, which is why they are popular).
- Units and expand is popular, but that leads to your troops not being able to breach the toss ramp due to force field. It gives your economy a head start, but you expose yourself to a colossus timing and even if you get out vikings in time, you ceed mapcontrol to the toss death ball allowing he toss to catch up in expansions and tech up to the dreaded HT+amulet.
- Tech and expand leaves you open to many early pushes. You can manage, but you have failed to capitalize on your strong infantry. This is how most build start out with mech, relying on tank turtle to get their natural. But that cedes the map to the toss and he can do whatever he want, leading to the 'mech vs late game toss' scenario with toss having extra workers due to chronoboost and possible being expansions up.
And for medivac airlift to counter forcefield: 1) Medivacs take a while, when you also have to research stim and other stuff. They cost quite some gas. 2) Dropping when the toss expects it and has only 1 base to defend is suicidal. Especially considering that toss needs only 2 sentries at his ramp and can devote the rest of his units to kill the units as they drop out of the medivac (if he doesn't get the medivac).
There is a reason that there are numerous timing pushes but none of the successful ones involves medivacs.
EDIT: I also want to throw in: Sufficient forcefields enable toss gateway units to beat infantry. I have learned that the hard way. If you do a two rax expand, he does a 1 or 2 gate expand and then try to pressure the toss after stim is done, he will be able to fend your push off with forcefields and tech on two bases and then you are screwed.
On January 25 2011 20:48 DrGreen wrote: Terrans dont drop enough in late game. It totally destroys Protoss, cause protoss army is usually 1 big clump, and if you drop in 3 places you can often get better position to attack and take out protoss main army. 4 Marauders drops are just imba! Tos have to either 1) make useless cannons, 2) micro HTs giving terran time to engage without getting force fielded, 3) leave more then 4 marauder worth of army in bases.
Ofcourse it all depends on many factors....
I dont think that P is IMBA in late game, because of T mobility.
I don't see how cannons are "useless" when they shoot at the medivac dropping...If protoss is smart and has noticed the terran likes drops he wont just have an entire max army sitting there doing nothing, he would be aggresive so terran doesnt have time to do these drops or he'll be low on units everytime a drop goes, making there a chance him to pretty much lose everything.
Also, the timing window for attacking early game really upsets me. Why should we have to kill you early just to win? On top of this, it really is true that the window is extremely small. I really would like macro games but it just doesn't work. It's not that I'm even bad at macro, when I play TvZ I'm always doing good on macro and I usually win because of that and micro, but vs toss neither apply because it doesn't even matter my unit comp in the end, it gets owned all the time.
Honestly, I just hope they do some nerf on early game terran infantry pressure and also nerf warp gates (increase time so that 4gate doesnt just beat us if we go tech) and buff late-game terran somehow or nerf late-game protoss
On January 25 2011 20:48 DrGreen wrote: Terrans dont drop enough in late game. It totally destroys Protoss, cause protoss army is usually 1 big clump, and if you drop in 3 places you can often get better position to attack and take out protoss main army. 4 Marauders drops are just imba! Tos have to either 1) make useless cannons, 2) micro HTs giving terran time to engage without getting force fielded, 3) leave more then 4 marauder worth of army in bases.
Ofcourse it all depends on many factors....
I dont think that P is IMBA in late game, because of T mobility.
I don't see how cannons are "useless" when they shoot at the medivac dropping...If protoss is smart and has noticed the terran likes drops he wont just have an entire max army sitting there doing nothing, he would be aggresive so terran doesnt have time to do these drops or he'll be low on units everytime a drop goes, making there a chance him to pretty much lose everything.
Also, the timing window for attacking early game really upsets me. Why should we have to kill you early just to win? On top of this, it really is true that the window is extremely small. I really would like macro games but it just doesn't work. It's not that I'm even bad at macro, when I play TvZ I'm always doing good on macro and I usually win because of that and micro, but vs toss neither apply because it doesn't even matter my unit comp in the end, it gets owned all the time.
Honestly, I just hope they do some nerf on early game terran infantry pressure and also nerf warp gates (increase time so that 4gate doesnt just beat us if we go tech) and buff late-game terran somehow or nerf late-game protoss
This is so true. Forcefields really close your first timing window. By the time you have medivacs, toss has collossae. By the time you can battle these collossae, lategame enters. GG.
Protoss players who suggest to drop always forget a few things: 1) while you are dropping and losing parts of your army, the toss is building up an unbeatable 200/200 force. 2) dropping when phoenixes are into play is a straight loss. 3) 1 DT at each expo and dropping will need a scan every time. 4) HT's feedback your medivacs. 5) The drops have to be perfect and if you give the toss 1 min to recover, you die. 1 mistake and you lose.
Medivac dropping against FFs early game is pointless. Why? Because FFing the ramp means the entire P army is in the main. Dropping right into the main when the whole army is there is rather pointless.
Medivacs also require a Starport, which takes time to get. I think I might try and incorporate just one Ghost into my infantry to EMP the sentries and see if I can force my way up the ramp.
Mech just dies to Chargelots as they can easily absorb tank damage, hellions can't kill anything else and Thors get surrounded.
Air might be viable but trying to get mass air up is probably even more difficult than getting mech up and running.
On January 25 2011 10:40 Reborn8u wrote:Obviously, late game isn't an issue for me, amulet is insane and colossus at critical mass are insane as well. But early game I just get suffocated by pressure and nothing I can make except FF can deal with terrans infantry well. It's just so hard to get enough gas to have an army that can keep me alive and get colossus or HT's out. After every battle I loose units have to spend a lot of gas to replace them. Terrans have just gotten so good at baiting force fields. Many times they get 1 early ghost and emp my units. I honestly don't see why so many terrans bitch about storm. 80 damage, but most of it can be dodged and it's very expensive to tech to (which weakens my army as I'm waiting for it) But emp doesn't even have to be researched, does 100 dmg to shields and is instant and can't be dodged. It also counters HT and FF. Also, the ghosts can cloak. Now, imagine if storm worked like that and didn't have to be researched. I wish I understood better what these toss are doing that is making the terrans feel like they're op. I for the life of me cannot figure this matchup out from the protoss side. If I expo to early or tech to early I just die.
This sums up the current state of the matchup pretty well. If terran goes bio he has a large timing window where bio >> gateway (basically once stim is finished and until storms/rangecolls come out). This timing window is where terran dominates and toss can't really do anything else than sit in his base and ff his ramp to stall for his tech. However, if the terran fails to kill the toss inside that timing window, it's the other way around - Collossi and/or storm >> bio. Now the terran can't really do anything besides trying to wear down the toss by indirect engagements (hit-and-run, drops).
I'm not saying that the matchup is imbalanced one way or another, i'm just saying that i'm not satisfied with the current situation that i basically have to win the game early (which is very much possible) or fight an uphill battle in the lategame. I don't like to do 1-base timing pushes or allins, but i feel like i'm forced to do these if i want to win. Give me a viable alternative and i will gladly accept it (preferably something that actually works, not some "lol go thors the pwn" bullshit).
You forget 1 thing. That timing where there are no collossae or HT's is very small + so many protoss players underestimate the power of forcefields. Watch mc crushing terrans with forcefields. So it's more like this: - you will have a timing where terran will lose his army thanks to forcefields. - then the collossus enter the play so your bioball will be much weaker - then HT's + amulet enter the game and you will only win if you are much better then your opponent.
Timing window for terran? I don't see it.
I'm one of those terrans that never allins. I prefer to play a macrogame.
I can only again emphasize that I don't understand why you don't use window 1 (from forcefields to colossi) to outexpand while dropping. Forcefields are actually 100% useless against a drop, and if I as a toss have to keep parts of my army at home, there's no way in hell I'm going to attack you with my first colossi when I can't take my whole army with me. So tell me, what prevents you from getting a third at this point? I firmly believe that terran has to be played like toss was played in BW - you outexpand, drop, keep your opponent busy while taking the map. You don't have to be Sjow and drop main and expo at the same time while attacking to beat non-pro toss-players....constant drops at different locations while staying defensive should really prevent your opponent from attacking your third. Getting outexpanded while being on two base is definitely my biggest fear when playing PvT right now.
Why don't terrans outexpand a toss, while having more units than him and teching up simultaneously? Because you cannot tech and expand and mass up units at the same time, or you end up with a half-ass progress in each of the three fields (late expo, late tech and too few units to really do shit).
- Units and expand is popular, but that leads to your troops not being able to breach the toss ramp due to force field. It gives your economy a head start, but you expose yourself to a colossus timing and even if you get out vikings in time, you ceed mapcontrol to the toss death ball allowing he toss to catch up in expansions and tech up to the dreaded HT+amulet.
This is exactly what I'm talking about. Approximately 80% of my terran-opponents try to engage against my forcefields out of a reason unknown to me. Yes your units are stronger, but WHY, why the hell do you feel the desperate urge to just go and kill me? You don't actually have to suicide half of your army each and every game, you can just stay defensive (which requires a helluva less stuff with bunkers) and out-macro the toss. Also I mentioned drops to keep toss in his base. What's he gonna do, kill you with the oh so powerful 2 colossus timing attack that we've seen....umm.....never in the last couple of months? 90% of the PvT games I see where terran loses, the T either throws parts of his army away early which means he has to reproduce and can't tech, or the T just masses units on 2 base and doesn't take advantage of his high mobility at all. On the other hand, I rarely see a toss win against a drop-terran who uses drops to outexpand a toss or just kill him with the multi-pronged attacks (see sjow vs white-ra).
On January 25 2011 22:46 sleepingdog wrote: On the other hand, I rarely see a toss win against a drop-terran who uses drops to outexpand a toss or just kill him with the multi-pronged attacks (see sjow vs white-ra).
Indeed. I have a woeful record against Terran of late - literally something like 20% or less. And one of those wins against Terran was when the guy admitted to me at the start that he was totally baked. The other one (yes, I've only won twice against Terran in recent memory) was when he missed a scan on my DTs (which I started employing out of desperation).
So, in search of help, I also watched the Sjow - White-Ra series. And it was depressing. Constant drop harrass just wore White-Ra down. And *each of the drops was cost-effective*. i.e. after each drop, Protoss had lost more resources worth of stuff than Sjow did, even if the drop was killed off. And I wasn't really sure what White-Ra was doing wrong. It just looked totally futile.
On January 25 2011 10:40 Reborn8u wrote:Obviously, late game isn't an issue for me, amulet is insane and colossus at critical mass are insane as well. But early game I just get suffocated by pressure and nothing I can make except FF can deal with terrans infantry well. It's just so hard to get enough gas to have an army that can keep me alive and get colossus or HT's out. After every battle I loose units have to spend a lot of gas to replace them. Terrans have just gotten so good at baiting force fields. Many times they get 1 early ghost and emp my units. I honestly don't see why so many terrans bitch about storm. 80 damage, but most of it can be dodged and it's very expensive to tech to (which weakens my army as I'm waiting for it) But emp doesn't even have to be researched, does 100 dmg to shields and is instant and can't be dodged. It also counters HT and FF. Also, the ghosts can cloak. Now, imagine if storm worked like that and didn't have to be researched. I wish I understood better what these toss are doing that is making the terrans feel like they're op. I for the life of me cannot figure this matchup out from the protoss side. If I expo to early or tech to early I just die.
This sums up the current state of the matchup pretty well. If terran goes bio he has a large timing window where bio >> gateway (basically once stim is finished and until storms/rangecolls come out). This timing window is where terran dominates and toss can't really do anything else than sit in his base and ff his ramp to stall for his tech. However, if the terran fails to kill the toss inside that timing window, it's the other way around - Collossi and/or storm >> bio. Now the terran can't really do anything besides trying to wear down the toss by indirect engagements (hit-and-run, drops).
I'm not saying that the matchup is imbalanced one way or another, i'm just saying that i'm not satisfied with the current situation that i basically have to win the game early (which is very much possible) or fight an uphill battle in the lategame. I don't like to do 1-base timing pushes or allins, but i feel like i'm forced to do these if i want to win. Give me a viable alternative and i will gladly accept it (preferably something that actually works, not some "lol go thors the pwn" bullshit).
You forget 1 thing. That timing where there are no collossae or HT's is very small + so many protoss players underestimate the power of forcefields. Watch mc crushing terrans with forcefields. So it's more like this: - you will have a timing where terran will lose his army thanks to forcefields. - then the collossus enter the play so your bioball will be much weaker - then HT's + amulet enter the game and you will only win if you are much better then your opponent.
Timing window for terran? I don't see it.
I'm one of those terrans that never allins. I prefer to play a macrogame.
I can only again emphasize that I don't understand why you don't use window 1 (from forcefields to colossi) to outexpand while dropping. Forcefields are actually 100% useless against a drop, and if I as a toss have to keep parts of my army at home, there's no way in hell I'm going to attack you with my first colossi when I can't take my whole army with me. So tell me, what prevents you from getting a third at this point? I firmly believe that terran has to be played like toss was played in BW - you outexpand, drop, keep your opponent busy while taking the map. You don't have to be Sjow and drop main and expo at the same time while attacking to beat non-pro toss-players....constant drops at different locations while staying defensive should really prevent your opponent from attacking your third. Getting outexpanded while being on two base is definitely my biggest fear when playing PvT right now.
Why don't terrans outexpand a toss, while having more units than him and teching up simultaneously? Because you cannot tech and expand and mass up units at the same time, or you end up with a half-ass progress in each of the three fields (late expo, late tech and too few units to really do shit).
So which two areas do you focus on?
- Tech and units is popular and leads to the timing pushes. But they have a tendency to be foiled by aggressive 4 gate pushes or 3 gate voidray, that hit before you have your high tech units (raven/banshee/thor) ready. Also toss turtling on one base will give you trouble, because force field can deny your ground troops access (Thor rushes deny force fields, which is why they are popular).
- Units and expand is popular, but that leads to your troops not being able to breach the toss ramp due to force field. It gives your economy a head start, but you expose yourself to a colossus timing and even if you get out vikings in time, you ceed mapcontrol to the toss death ball allowing he toss to catch up in expansions and tech up to the dreaded HT+amulet.
- Tech and expand leaves you open to many early pushes. You can manage, but you have failed to capitalize on your strong infantry. This is how most build start out with mech, relying on tank turtle to get their natural. But that cedes the map to the toss and he can do whatever he want, leading to the 'mech vs late game toss' scenario with toss having extra workers due to chronoboost and possible being expansions up.
And for medivac airlift to counter forcefield: 1) Medivacs take a while, when you also have to research stim and other stuff. They cost quite some gas. 2) Dropping when the toss expects it and has only 1 base to defend is suicidal. Especially considering that toss needs only 2 sentries at his ramp and can devote the rest of his units to kill the units as they drop out of the medivac (if he doesn't get the medivac).
There is a reason that there are numerous timing pushes but none of the successful ones involves medivacs.
EDIT: I also want to throw in: Sufficient forcefields enable toss gateway units to beat infantry. I have learned that the hard way. If you do a two rax expand, he does a 1 or 2 gate expand and then try to pressure the toss after stim is done, he will be able to fend your push off with forcefields and tech on two bases and then you are screwed.
/thread
This post pretty much sums everything up.
I agree that early game T has a unit advantage in a straight up fight, but good forcefield play mostly negates that (force fields are harder than stim and A move, but we're not talking about platinum here).
I think in the end the problem is Terran T3 units. As a protoss there are multiple death balls you can make, using various unit comps that can scare the crap out of a terran (any combination of collossus/carrier/high temps, especially with charge), whereas a terran can get bio and more bio. Battlecruisers were simply nerfed into uselessness. Thors are pretty good against ground armies but their damage against armored air is just laughable.
I think until something is done with BCs or Thor armored air attack, TvP will be a race against the clock.
For the record, I have something like 80% winrate against protoss, mainly because my style involves mass T1 unit aggression and expansion and my macro is much better than the people at my level (around 2.5k dimaond), so this isn't whining. I'd just like the option to play a different style in the matchup instead of going balls to the wall every game and trying to hurt him early. It just limits possibilities.
On January 25 2011 20:48 DrGreen wrote: Terrans dont drop enough in late game. It totally destroys Protoss, cause protoss army is usually 1 big clump, and if you drop in 3 places you can often get better position to attack and take out protoss main army. 4 Marauders drops are just imba! Tos have to either 1) make useless cannons, 2) micro HTs giving terran time to engage without getting force fielded, 3) leave more then 4 marauder worth of army in bases.
Ofcourse it all depends on many factors....
I dont think that P is IMBA in late game, because of T mobility.
But then again if the Terran player does 3 drops you can just commence to going in and raping his whole fucking base. Seen the Homestory Cup game with TLO against WhiteRa? That's exactly what happened.
On January 25 2011 10:40 Reborn8u wrote:Obviously, late game isn't an issue for me, amulet is insane and colossus at critical mass are insane as well. But early game I just get suffocated by pressure and nothing I can make except FF can deal with terrans infantry well. It's just so hard to get enough gas to have an army that can keep me alive and get colossus or HT's out. After every battle I loose units have to spend a lot of gas to replace them. Terrans have just gotten so good at baiting force fields. Many times they get 1 early ghost and emp my units. I honestly don't see why so many terrans bitch about storm. 80 damage, but most of it can be dodged and it's very expensive to tech to (which weakens my army as I'm waiting for it) But emp doesn't even have to be researched, does 100 dmg to shields and is instant and can't be dodged. It also counters HT and FF. Also, the ghosts can cloak. Now, imagine if storm worked like that and didn't have to be researched. I wish I understood better what these toss are doing that is making the terrans feel like they're op. I for the life of me cannot figure this matchup out from the protoss side. If I expo to early or tech to early I just die.
This sums up the current state of the matchup pretty well. If terran goes bio he has a large timing window where bio >> gateway (basically once stim is finished and until storms/rangecolls come out). This timing window is where terran dominates and toss can't really do anything else than sit in his base and ff his ramp to stall for his tech. However, if the terran fails to kill the toss inside that timing window, it's the other way around - Collossi and/or storm >> bio. Now the terran can't really do anything besides trying to wear down the toss by indirect engagements (hit-and-run, drops).
I'm not saying that the matchup is imbalanced one way or another, i'm just saying that i'm not satisfied with the current situation that i basically have to win the game early (which is very much possible) or fight an uphill battle in the lategame. I don't like to do 1-base timing pushes or allins, but i feel like i'm forced to do these if i want to win. Give me a viable alternative and i will gladly accept it (preferably something that actually works, not some "lol go thors the pwn" bullshit).
You forget 1 thing. That timing where there are no collossae or HT's is very small + so many protoss players underestimate the power of forcefields. Watch mc crushing terrans with forcefields. So it's more like this: - you will have a timing where terran will lose his army thanks to forcefields. - then the collossus enter the play so your bioball will be much weaker - then HT's + amulet enter the game and you will only win if you are much better then your opponent.
Timing window for terran? I don't see it.
I'm one of those terrans that never allins. I prefer to play a macrogame.
I can only again emphasize that I don't understand why you don't use window 1 (from forcefields to colossi) to outexpand while dropping. Forcefields are actually 100% useless against a drop, and if I as a toss have to keep parts of my army at home, there's no way in hell I'm going to attack you with my first colossi when I can't take my whole army with me. So tell me, what prevents you from getting a third at this point? I firmly believe that terran has to be played like toss was played in BW - you outexpand, drop, keep your opponent busy while taking the map. You don't have to be Sjow and drop main and expo at the same time while attacking to beat non-pro toss-players....constant drops at different locations while staying defensive should really prevent your opponent from attacking your third. Getting outexpanded while being on two base is definitely my biggest fear when playing PvT right now.
Why don't terrans outexpand a toss, while having more units than him and teching up simultaneously? Because you cannot tech and expand and mass up units at the same time, or you end up with a half-ass progress in each of the three fields (late expo, late tech and too few units to really do shit).
So which two areas do you focus on?
- Tech and units is popular and leads to the timing pushes. But they have a tendency to be foiled by aggressive 4 gate pushes or 3 gate voidray, that hit before you have your high tech units (raven/banshee/thor) ready. Also toss turtling on one base will give you trouble, because force field can deny your ground troops access (Thor rushes deny force fields, which is why they are popular).
- Units and expand is popular, but that leads to your troops not being able to breach the toss ramp due to force field. It gives your economy a head start, but you expose yourself to a colossus timing and even if you get out vikings in time, you ceed mapcontrol to the toss death ball allowing he toss to catch up in expansions and tech up to the dreaded HT+amulet.
- Tech and expand leaves you open to many early pushes. You can manage, but you have failed to capitalize on your strong infantry. This is how most build start out with mech, relying on tank turtle to get their natural. But that cedes the map to the toss and he can do whatever he want, leading to the 'mech vs late game toss' scenario with toss having extra workers due to chronoboost and possible being expansions up.
And for medivac airlift to counter forcefield: 1) Medivacs take a while, when you also have to research stim and other stuff. They cost quite some gas. 2) Dropping when the toss expects it and has only 1 base to defend is suicidal. Especially considering that toss needs only 2 sentries at his ramp and can devote the rest of his units to kill the units as they drop out of the medivac (if he doesn't get the medivac).
There is a reason that there are numerous timing pushes but none of the successful ones involves medivacs.
EDIT: I also want to throw in: Sufficient forcefields enable toss gateway units to beat infantry. I have learned that the hard way. If you do a two rax expand, he does a 1 or 2 gate expand and then try to pressure the toss after stim is done, he will be able to fend your push off with forcefields and tech on two bases and then you are screwed.
/thread
This post pretty much sums everything up.
I agree that early game T has a unit advantage in a straight up fight, but good forcefield play mostly negates that (force fields are harder than stim and A move, but we're not talking about platinum here).
I think in the end the problem is Terran T3 units. As a protoss there are multiple death balls you can make, using various unit comps that can scare the crap out of a terran (any combination of collossus/carrier/high temps, especially with charge), whereas a terran can get bio and more bio. Battlecruisers were simply nerfed into uselessness. Thors are pretty good against ground armies but their damage against armored air is just laughable.
I think until something is done with BCs or Thor armored air attack, TvP will be a race against the clock.
For the record, I have something like 80% winrate against protoss, mainly because my style involves mass T1 unit aggression and expansion and my macro is much better than the people at my level (around 2.5k dimaond), so this isn't whining. I'd just like the option to play a different style in the matchup instead of going balls to the wall every game and trying to hurt him early. It just limits possibilities.
Forcefield can't be mostly negating anything if you still have a winrate that high using that style.
I personally think Terran's QQing about late game aren't as good at macro (which is fair, you don't get to practice it as often since both TvP and TvZ can be won with strong early pushes) and fail to use ghosts.
T1 Terran units scale much better than gateway units, they just melt easily to splash, but getting free shots on colossus with vikings, using drops, ghosts etc... I find Terran late game to be stronger than Protoss's if used properly.
Ghosts are underused and underrated. They have a spell that halfs the HP of most protoss units instantly AND prevents the use of both forcefields and psi storm.
At the pro level there has already started to be a shift towards Terran in TvP and I think as time goes on it'll shift further across the board (maybe not below platinum level, since 4 gate etc will never change).
But, maybe Protoss will respond to a shift with new builds and it'll change further. Who knows. As is, right at this very moment, Terran is pretty darn strong in both TvZ and TvP matchups, both early and late game.
On January 25 2011 23:29 mads wrote: As is, right at this very moment, Terran is pretty darn strong in both TvZ and TvP matchups, both early and late game.
On January 25 2011 23:29 mads wrote: As is, right at this very moment, Terran is pretty darn strong in both TvZ and TvP matchups, both early and late game.
On January 25 2011 10:40 Reborn8u wrote:Obviously, late game isn't an issue for me, amulet is insane and colossus at critical mass are insane as well. But early game I just get suffocated by pressure and nothing I can make except FF can deal with terrans infantry well. It's just so hard to get enough gas to have an army that can keep me alive and get colossus or HT's out. After every battle I loose units have to spend a lot of gas to replace them. Terrans have just gotten so good at baiting force fields. Many times they get 1 early ghost and emp my units. I honestly don't see why so many terrans bitch about storm. 80 damage, but most of it can be dodged and it's very expensive to tech to (which weakens my army as I'm waiting for it) But emp doesn't even have to be researched, does 100 dmg to shields and is instant and can't be dodged. It also counters HT and FF. Also, the ghosts can cloak. Now, imagine if storm worked like that and didn't have to be researched. I wish I understood better what these toss are doing that is making the terrans feel like they're op. I for the life of me cannot figure this matchup out from the protoss side. If I expo to early or tech to early I just die.
This sums up the current state of the matchup pretty well. If terran goes bio he has a large timing window where bio >> gateway (basically once stim is finished and until storms/rangecolls come out). This timing window is where terran dominates and toss can't really do anything else than sit in his base and ff his ramp to stall for his tech. However, if the terran fails to kill the toss inside that timing window, it's the other way around - Collossi and/or storm >> bio. Now the terran can't really do anything besides trying to wear down the toss by indirect engagements (hit-and-run, drops).
I'm not saying that the matchup is imbalanced one way or another, i'm just saying that i'm not satisfied with the current situation that i basically have to win the game early (which is very much possible) or fight an uphill battle in the lategame. I don't like to do 1-base timing pushes or allins, but i feel like i'm forced to do these if i want to win. Give me a viable alternative and i will gladly accept it (preferably something that actually works, not some "lol go thors the pwn" bullshit).
You forget 1 thing. That timing where there are no collossae or HT's is very small + so many protoss players underestimate the power of forcefields. Watch mc crushing terrans with forcefields. So it's more like this: - you will have a timing where terran will lose his army thanks to forcefields. - then the collossus enter the play so your bioball will be much weaker - then HT's + amulet enter the game and you will only win if you are much better then your opponent.
Timing window for terran? I don't see it.
I'm one of those terrans that never allins. I prefer to play a macrogame.
I can only again emphasize that I don't understand why you don't use window 1 (from forcefields to colossi) to outexpand while dropping. Forcefields are actually 100% useless against a drop, and if I as a toss have to keep parts of my army at home, there's no way in hell I'm going to attack you with my first colossi when I can't take my whole army with me. So tell me, what prevents you from getting a third at this point? I firmly believe that terran has to be played like toss was played in BW - you outexpand, drop, keep your opponent busy while taking the map. You don't have to be Sjow and drop main and expo at the same time while attacking to beat non-pro toss-players....constant drops at different locations while staying defensive should really prevent your opponent from attacking your third. Getting outexpanded while being on two base is definitely my biggest fear when playing PvT right now.
Why don't terrans outexpand a toss, while having more units than him and teching up simultaneously? Because you cannot tech and expand and mass up units at the same time, or you end up with a half-ass progress in each of the three fields (late expo, late tech and too few units to really do shit).
- Units and expand is popular, but that leads to your troops not being able to breach the toss ramp due to force field. It gives your economy a head start, but you expose yourself to a colossus timing and even if you get out vikings in time, you ceed mapcontrol to the toss death ball allowing he toss to catch up in expansions and tech up to the dreaded HT+amulet.
This is exactly what I'm talking about. Approximately 80% of my terran-opponents try to engage against my forcefields out of a reason unknown to me. Yes your units are stronger, but WHY, why the hell do you feel the desperate urge to just go and kill me? You don't actually have to suicide half of your army each and every game, you can just stay defensive (which requires a helluva less stuff with bunkers) and out-macro the toss. Also I mentioned drops to keep toss in his base. What's he gonna do, kill you with the oh so powerful 2 colossus timing attack that we've seen....umm.....never in the last couple of months? 90% of the PvT games I see where terran loses, the T either throws parts of his army away early which means he has to reproduce and can't tech, or the T just masses units on 2 base and doesn't take advantage of his high mobility at all. On the other hand, I rarely see a toss win against a drop-terran who uses drops to outexpand a toss or just kill him with the multi-pronged attacks (see sjow vs white-ra).
You are failing to comprehend that T's try to finish the game early because once it gets to late game, it is so incredibly lopsided in the P's favor with both HT's and Colossi. Not only that, if the Terran just tries to expand, he isn't keeping the Protoss from expanding or teching at all, giving a P that knows that the T has let up free reign to get to those T3 game-winners.
On January 25 2011 10:40 Reborn8u wrote:Obviously, late game isn't an issue for me, amulet is insane and colossus at critical mass are insane as well. But early game I just get suffocated by pressure and nothing I can make except FF can deal with terrans infantry well. It's just so hard to get enough gas to have an army that can keep me alive and get colossus or HT's out. After every battle I loose units have to spend a lot of gas to replace them. Terrans have just gotten so good at baiting force fields. Many times they get 1 early ghost and emp my units. I honestly don't see why so many terrans bitch about storm. 80 damage, but most of it can be dodged and it's very expensive to tech to (which weakens my army as I'm waiting for it) But emp doesn't even have to be researched, does 100 dmg to shields and is instant and can't be dodged. It also counters HT and FF. Also, the ghosts can cloak. Now, imagine if storm worked like that and didn't have to be researched. I wish I understood better what these toss are doing that is making the terrans feel like they're op. I for the life of me cannot figure this matchup out from the protoss side. If I expo to early or tech to early I just die.
This sums up the current state of the matchup pretty well. If terran goes bio he has a large timing window where bio >> gateway (basically once stim is finished and until storms/rangecolls come out). This timing window is where terran dominates and toss can't really do anything else than sit in his base and ff his ramp to stall for his tech. However, if the terran fails to kill the toss inside that timing window, it's the other way around - Collossi and/or storm >> bio. Now the terran can't really do anything besides trying to wear down the toss by indirect engagements (hit-and-run, drops).
I'm not saying that the matchup is imbalanced one way or another, i'm just saying that i'm not satisfied with the current situation that i basically have to win the game early (which is very much possible) or fight an uphill battle in the lategame. I don't like to do 1-base timing pushes or allins, but i feel like i'm forced to do these if i want to win. Give me a viable alternative and i will gladly accept it (preferably something that actually works, not some "lol go thors the pwn" bullshit).
You forget 1 thing. That timing where there are no collossae or HT's is very small + so many protoss players underestimate the power of forcefields. Watch mc crushing terrans with forcefields. So it's more like this: - you will have a timing where terran will lose his army thanks to forcefields. - then the collossus enter the play so your bioball will be much weaker - then HT's + amulet enter the game and you will only win if you are much better then your opponent.
Timing window for terran? I don't see it.
I'm one of those terrans that never allins. I prefer to play a macrogame.
I can only again emphasize that I don't understand why you don't use window 1 (from forcefields to colossi) to outexpand while dropping. Forcefields are actually 100% useless against a drop, and if I as a toss have to keep parts of my army at home, there's no way in hell I'm going to attack you with my first colossi when I can't take my whole army with me. So tell me, what prevents you from getting a third at this point? I firmly believe that terran has to be played like toss was played in BW - you outexpand, drop, keep your opponent busy while taking the map. You don't have to be Sjow and drop main and expo at the same time while attacking to beat non-pro toss-players....constant drops at different locations while staying defensive should really prevent your opponent from attacking your third. Getting outexpanded while being on two base is definitely my biggest fear when playing PvT right now.
Why don't terrans outexpand a toss, while having more units than him and teching up simultaneously? Because you cannot tech and expand and mass up units at the same time, or you end up with a half-ass progress in each of the three fields (late expo, late tech and too few units to really do shit).
- Units and expand is popular, but that leads to your troops not being able to breach the toss ramp due to force field. It gives your economy a head start, but you expose yourself to a colossus timing and even if you get out vikings in time, you ceed mapcontrol to the toss death ball allowing he toss to catch up in expansions and tech up to the dreaded HT+amulet.
This is exactly what I'm talking about. Approximately 80% of my terran-opponents try to engage against my forcefields out of a reason unknown to me. Yes your units are stronger, but WHY, why the hell do you feel the desperate urge to just go and kill me? You don't actually have to suicide half of your army each and every game, you can just stay defensive (which requires a helluva less stuff with bunkers) and out-macro the toss. Also I mentioned drops to keep toss in his base. What's he gonna do, kill you with the oh so powerful 2 colossus timing attack that we've seen....umm.....never in the last couple of months? 90% of the PvT games I see where terran loses, the T either throws parts of his army away early which means he has to reproduce and can't tech, or the T just masses units on 2 base and doesn't take advantage of his high mobility at all. On the other hand, I rarely see a toss win against a drop-terran who uses drops to outexpand a toss or just kill him with the multi-pronged attacks (see sjow vs white-ra).
This is a byproduct of the fact that we cannot compete with 4+ colossi or the colossi + HT combo. Terran benefits way more from army trades and smaller numbers, so they are forced to be aggressive.
Sjow was impressive in his games against Whitera, but even then he didnt go into multiple bases and into a macro game, as it will only benefit the toss in the long run. He just took a different approach and opted for heavy drops instead of running his boyz into the protoss deathball, and yeah it does work really well, but its pretty damn hard to pull off as well as he did.
On January 25 2011 10:40 Reborn8u wrote:Obviously, late game isn't an issue for me, amulet is insane and colossus at critical mass are insane as well. But early game I just get suffocated by pressure and nothing I can make except FF can deal with terrans infantry well. It's just so hard to get enough gas to have an army that can keep me alive and get colossus or HT's out. After every battle I loose units have to spend a lot of gas to replace them. Terrans have just gotten so good at baiting force fields. Many times they get 1 early ghost and emp my units. I honestly don't see why so many terrans bitch about storm. 80 damage, but most of it can be dodged and it's very expensive to tech to (which weakens my army as I'm waiting for it) But emp doesn't even have to be researched, does 100 dmg to shields and is instant and can't be dodged. It also counters HT and FF. Also, the ghosts can cloak. Now, imagine if storm worked like that and didn't have to be researched. I wish I understood better what these toss are doing that is making the terrans feel like they're op. I for the life of me cannot figure this matchup out from the protoss side. If I expo to early or tech to early I just die.
This sums up the current state of the matchup pretty well. If terran goes bio he has a large timing window where bio >> gateway (basically once stim is finished and until storms/rangecolls come out). This timing window is where terran dominates and toss can't really do anything else than sit in his base and ff his ramp to stall for his tech. However, if the terran fails to kill the toss inside that timing window, it's the other way around - Collossi and/or storm >> bio. Now the terran can't really do anything besides trying to wear down the toss by indirect engagements (hit-and-run, drops).
I'm not saying that the matchup is imbalanced one way or another, i'm just saying that i'm not satisfied with the current situation that i basically have to win the game early (which is very much possible) or fight an uphill battle in the lategame. I don't like to do 1-base timing pushes or allins, but i feel like i'm forced to do these if i want to win. Give me a viable alternative and i will gladly accept it (preferably something that actually works, not some "lol go thors the pwn" bullshit).
You forget 1 thing. That timing where there are no collossae or HT's is very small + so many protoss players underestimate the power of forcefields. Watch mc crushing terrans with forcefields. So it's more like this: - you will have a timing where terran will lose his army thanks to forcefields. - then the collossus enter the play so your bioball will be much weaker - then HT's + amulet enter the game and you will only win if you are much better then your opponent.
Timing window for terran? I don't see it.
I'm one of those terrans that never allins. I prefer to play a macrogame.
I can only again emphasize that I don't understand why you don't use window 1 (from forcefields to colossi) to outexpand while dropping. Forcefields are actually 100% useless against a drop, and if I as a toss have to keep parts of my army at home, there's no way in hell I'm going to attack you with my first colossi when I can't take my whole army with me. So tell me, what prevents you from getting a third at this point? I firmly believe that terran has to be played like toss was played in BW - you outexpand, drop, keep your opponent busy while taking the map. You don't have to be Sjow and drop main and expo at the same time while attacking to beat non-pro toss-players....constant drops at different locations while staying defensive should really prevent your opponent from attacking your third. Getting outexpanded while being on two base is definitely my biggest fear when playing PvT right now.
Why don't terrans outexpand a toss, while having more units than him and teching up simultaneously? Because you cannot tech and expand and mass up units at the same time, or you end up with a half-ass progress in each of the three fields (late expo, late tech and too few units to really do shit).
- Units and expand is popular, but that leads to your troops not being able to breach the toss ramp due to force field. It gives your economy a head start, but you expose yourself to a colossus timing and even if you get out vikings in time, you ceed mapcontrol to the toss death ball allowing he toss to catch up in expansions and tech up to the dreaded HT+amulet.
This is exactly what I'm talking about. Approximately 80% of my terran-opponents try to engage against my forcefields out of a reason unknown to me. Yes your units are stronger, but WHY, why the hell do you feel the desperate urge to just go and kill me? You don't actually have to suicide half of your army each and every game, you can just stay defensive (which requires a helluva less stuff with bunkers) and out-macro the toss. Also I mentioned drops to keep toss in his base. What's he gonna do, kill you with the oh so powerful 2 colossus timing attack that we've seen....umm.....never in the last couple of months? 90% of the PvT games I see where terran loses, the T either throws parts of his army away early which means he has to reproduce and can't tech, or the T just masses units on 2 base and doesn't take advantage of his high mobility at all. On the other hand, I rarely see a toss win against a drop-terran who uses drops to outexpand a toss or just kill him with the multi-pronged attacks (see sjow vs white-ra).
This is a byproduct of the fact that we cannot compete with 4+ colossi or the colossi + HT combo. Terran benefits way more from army trades and smaller numbers, so they are forced to be aggressive.
Sjow was impressive in his games against Whitera, but even then he didnt go into multiple bases and into a macro game, as it will only benefit the toss in the long run. He just took a different approach and opted for heavy drops instead of running his boyz into the protoss deathball, and yeah it does work really well, but its pretty damn hard to pull off as well as he did.
Then watch gsl januari, terran can compete with the Collosi + HT combi better yet they can just destroy it with ghost viking marine maurders .... Just go check all the TvP of gsl then we talk again about what is possible or not
On January 25 2011 10:40 Reborn8u wrote:Obviously, late game isn't an issue for me, amulet is insane and colossus at critical mass are insane as well. But early game I just get suffocated by pressure and nothing I can make except FF can deal with terrans infantry well. It's just so hard to get enough gas to have an army that can keep me alive and get colossus or HT's out. After every battle I loose units have to spend a lot of gas to replace them. Terrans have just gotten so good at baiting force fields. Many times they get 1 early ghost and emp my units. I honestly don't see why so many terrans bitch about storm. 80 damage, but most of it can be dodged and it's very expensive to tech to (which weakens my army as I'm waiting for it) But emp doesn't even have to be researched, does 100 dmg to shields and is instant and can't be dodged. It also counters HT and FF. Also, the ghosts can cloak. Now, imagine if storm worked like that and didn't have to be researched. I wish I understood better what these toss are doing that is making the terrans feel like they're op. I for the life of me cannot figure this matchup out from the protoss side. If I expo to early or tech to early I just die.
This sums up the current state of the matchup pretty well. If terran goes bio he has a large timing window where bio >> gateway (basically once stim is finished and until storms/rangecolls come out). This timing window is where terran dominates and toss can't really do anything else than sit in his base and ff his ramp to stall for his tech. However, if the terran fails to kill the toss inside that timing window, it's the other way around - Collossi and/or storm >> bio. Now the terran can't really do anything besides trying to wear down the toss by indirect engagements (hit-and-run, drops).
I'm not saying that the matchup is imbalanced one way or another, i'm just saying that i'm not satisfied with the current situation that i basically have to win the game early (which is very much possible) or fight an uphill battle in the lategame. I don't like to do 1-base timing pushes or allins, but i feel like i'm forced to do these if i want to win. Give me a viable alternative and i will gladly accept it (preferably something that actually works, not some "lol go thors the pwn" bullshit).
You forget 1 thing. That timing where there are no collossae or HT's is very small + so many protoss players underestimate the power of forcefields. Watch mc crushing terrans with forcefields. So it's more like this: - you will have a timing where terran will lose his army thanks to forcefields. - then the collossus enter the play so your bioball will be much weaker - then HT's + amulet enter the game and you will only win if you are much better then your opponent.
Timing window for terran? I don't see it.
I'm one of those terrans that never allins. I prefer to play a macrogame.
I can only again emphasize that I don't understand why you don't use window 1 (from forcefields to colossi) to outexpand while dropping. Forcefields are actually 100% useless against a drop, and if I as a toss have to keep parts of my army at home, there's no way in hell I'm going to attack you with my first colossi when I can't take my whole army with me. So tell me, what prevents you from getting a third at this point? I firmly believe that terran has to be played like toss was played in BW - you outexpand, drop, keep your opponent busy while taking the map. You don't have to be Sjow and drop main and expo at the same time while attacking to beat non-pro toss-players....constant drops at different locations while staying defensive should really prevent your opponent from attacking your third. Getting outexpanded while being on two base is definitely my biggest fear when playing PvT right now.
Why don't terrans outexpand a toss, while having more units than him and teching up simultaneously? Because you cannot tech and expand and mass up units at the same time, or you end up with a half-ass progress in each of the three fields (late expo, late tech and too few units to really do shit).
- Units and expand is popular, but that leads to your troops not being able to breach the toss ramp due to force field. It gives your economy a head start, but you expose yourself to a colossus timing and even if you get out vikings in time, you ceed mapcontrol to the toss death ball allowing he toss to catch up in expansions and tech up to the dreaded HT+amulet.
This is exactly what I'm talking about. Approximately 80% of my terran-opponents try to engage against my forcefields out of a reason unknown to me. Yes your units are stronger, but WHY, why the hell do you feel the desperate urge to just go and kill me? You don't actually have to suicide half of your army each and every game, you can just stay defensive (which requires a helluva less stuff with bunkers) and out-macro the toss. Also I mentioned drops to keep toss in his base. What's he gonna do, kill you with the oh so powerful 2 colossus timing attack that we've seen....umm.....never in the last couple of months? 90% of the PvT games I see where terran loses, the T either throws parts of his army away early which means he has to reproduce and can't tech, or the T just masses units on 2 base and doesn't take advantage of his high mobility at all. On the other hand, I rarely see a toss win against a drop-terran who uses drops to outexpand a toss or just kill him with the multi-pronged attacks (see sjow vs white-ra).
This is a byproduct of the fact that we cannot compete with 4+ colossi or the colossi + HT combo. Terran benefits way more from army trades and smaller numbers, so they are forced to be aggressive.
Sjow was impressive in his games against Whitera, but even then he didnt go into multiple bases and into a macro game, as it will only benefit the toss in the long run. He just took a different approach and opted for heavy drops instead of running his boyz into the protoss deathball, and yeah it does work really well, but its pretty damn hard to pull off as well as he did.
Then watch gsl januari, terran can compete with the Collosi + HT combi better yet they can just destroy it with ghost viking marine maurders .... Just go check all the TvP of gsl then we talk again about what is possible or not
Gee, that wasnt vague at all. TvP of GSL. All of them?
The general consensus, to which even Blizzard agreed back at Blizzcon, is that terran is stronger early weaker late game. This is the general idea, but of course there will be exceptions. If for example the terran manages to get an early game lead a macro game can be quite manageable. Terran can counter HT + colossi, but it doesnt change the fact that the protoss units are stronger if all other things are equal.
On January 25 2011 10:40 Reborn8u wrote:Obviously, late game isn't an issue for me, amulet is insane and colossus at critical mass are insane as well. But early game I just get suffocated by pressure and nothing I can make except FF can deal with terrans infantry well. It's just so hard to get enough gas to have an army that can keep me alive and get colossus or HT's out. After every battle I loose units have to spend a lot of gas to replace them. Terrans have just gotten so good at baiting force fields. Many times they get 1 early ghost and emp my units. I honestly don't see why so many terrans bitch about storm. 80 damage, but most of it can be dodged and it's very expensive to tech to (which weakens my army as I'm waiting for it) But emp doesn't even have to be researched, does 100 dmg to shields and is instant and can't be dodged. It also counters HT and FF. Also, the ghosts can cloak. Now, imagine if storm worked like that and didn't have to be researched. I wish I understood better what these toss are doing that is making the terrans feel like they're op. I for the life of me cannot figure this matchup out from the protoss side. If I expo to early or tech to early I just die.
This sums up the current state of the matchup pretty well. If terran goes bio he has a large timing window where bio >> gateway (basically once stim is finished and until storms/rangecolls come out). This timing window is where terran dominates and toss can't really do anything else than sit in his base and ff his ramp to stall for his tech. However, if the terran fails to kill the toss inside that timing window, it's the other way around - Collossi and/or storm >> bio. Now the terran can't really do anything besides trying to wear down the toss by indirect engagements (hit-and-run, drops).
I'm not saying that the matchup is imbalanced one way or another, i'm just saying that i'm not satisfied with the current situation that i basically have to win the game early (which is very much possible) or fight an uphill battle in the lategame. I don't like to do 1-base timing pushes or allins, but i feel like i'm forced to do these if i want to win. Give me a viable alternative and i will gladly accept it (preferably something that actually works, not some "lol go thors the pwn" bullshit).
You forget 1 thing. That timing where there are no collossae or HT's is very small + so many protoss players underestimate the power of forcefields. Watch mc crushing terrans with forcefields. So it's more like this: - you will have a timing where terran will lose his army thanks to forcefields. - then the collossus enter the play so your bioball will be much weaker - then HT's + amulet enter the game and you will only win if you are much better then your opponent.
Timing window for terran? I don't see it.
I'm one of those terrans that never allins. I prefer to play a macrogame.
I can only again emphasize that I don't understand why you don't use window 1 (from forcefields to colossi) to outexpand while dropping. Forcefields are actually 100% useless against a drop, and if I as a toss have to keep parts of my army at home, there's no way in hell I'm going to attack you with my first colossi when I can't take my whole army with me. So tell me, what prevents you from getting a third at this point? I firmly believe that terran has to be played like toss was played in BW - you outexpand, drop, keep your opponent busy while taking the map. You don't have to be Sjow and drop main and expo at the same time while attacking to beat non-pro toss-players....constant drops at different locations while staying defensive should really prevent your opponent from attacking your third. Getting outexpanded while being on two base is definitely my biggest fear when playing PvT right now.
Why don't terrans outexpand a toss, while having more units than him and teching up simultaneously? Because you cannot tech and expand and mass up units at the same time, or you end up with a half-ass progress in each of the three fields (late expo, late tech and too few units to really do shit).
So which two areas do you focus on?
- Tech and units is popular and leads to the timing pushes. But they have a tendency to be foiled by aggressive 4 gate pushes or 3 gate voidray, that hit before you have your high tech units (raven/banshee/thor) ready. Also toss turtling on one base will give you trouble, because force field can deny your ground troops access (Thor rushes deny force fields, which is why they are popular).
- Units and expand is popular, but that leads to your troops not being able to breach the toss ramp due to force field. It gives your economy a head start, but you expose yourself to a colossus timing and even if you get out vikings in time, you ceed mapcontrol to the toss death ball allowing he toss to catch up in expansions and tech up to the dreaded HT+amulet.
- Tech and expand leaves you open to many early pushes. You can manage, but you have failed to capitalize on your strong infantry. This is how most build start out with mech, relying on tank turtle to get their natural. But that cedes the map to the toss and he can do whatever he want, leading to the 'mech vs late game toss' scenario with toss having extra workers due to chronoboost and possible being expansions up.
And for medivac airlift to counter forcefield: 1) Medivacs take a while, when you also have to research stim and other stuff. They cost quite some gas. 2) Dropping when the toss expects it and has only 1 base to defend is suicidal. Especially considering that toss needs only 2 sentries at his ramp and can devote the rest of his units to kill the units as they drop out of the medivac (if he doesn't get the medivac).
There is a reason that there are numerous timing pushes but none of the successful ones involves medivacs.
EDIT: I also want to throw in: Sufficient forcefields enable toss gateway units to beat infantry. I have learned that the hard way. If you do a two rax expand, he does a 1 or 2 gate expand and then try to pressure the toss after stim is done, he will be able to fend your push off with forcefields and tech on two bases and then you are screwed.
/thread
This post pretty much sums everything up.
I agree that early game T has a unit advantage in a straight up fight, but good forcefield play mostly negates that (force fields are harder than stim and A move, but we're not talking about platinum here).
I think in the end the problem is Terran T3 units. As a protoss there are multiple death balls you can make, using various unit comps that can scare the crap out of a terran (any combination of collossus/carrier/high temps, especially with charge), whereas a terran can get bio and more bio. Battlecruisers were simply nerfed into uselessness. Thors are pretty good against ground armies but their damage against armored air is just laughable.
I think until something is done with BCs or Thor armored air attack, TvP will be a race against the clock.
For the record, I have something like 80% winrate against protoss, mainly because my style involves mass T1 unit aggression and expansion and my macro is much better than the people at my level (around 2.5k dimaond), so this isn't whining. I'd just like the option to play a different style in the matchup instead of going balls to the wall every game and trying to hurt him early. It just limits possibilities.
Forcefield can't be mostly negating anything if you still have a winrate that high using that style.
I personally think Terran's QQing about late game aren't as good at macro (which is fair, you don't get to practice it as often since both TvP and TvZ can be won with strong early pushes) and fail to use ghosts.
T1 Terran units scale much better than gateway units, they just melt easily to splash, but getting free shots on colossus with vikings, using drops, ghosts etc... I find Terran late game to be stronger than Protoss's if used properly.
Ghosts are underused and underrated. They have a spell that halfs the HP of most protoss units instantly AND prevents the use of both forcefields and psi storm.
At the pro level there has already started to be a shift towards Terran in TvP and I think as time goes on it'll shift further across the board (maybe not below platinum level, since 4 gate etc will never change).
But, maybe Protoss will respond to a shift with new builds and it'll change further. Who knows. As is, right at this very moment, Terran is pretty darn strong in both TvZ and TvP matchups, both early and late game.
when I face 2500 diamond players, those guys arent good enough still to have well enough forcefields to negate early pushes. trust me...atleast not most of them.
So you personally feel terran players in general have bad macro because we're used to winning early? I'd like to see you play terran and try to outmacro a competent protoss, please link replays as well.
I'm a macro player, I hate trying to end games early, but I've started to go away from this style as it's getting extremely difficult to do so with the ridiculous protoss armies that I end up facing. The poster who mentioned the 2 diff type of styles you can have is absolutely right in this case. You CAN'T expand, tech, and make enough units to survive pushes at the same time. If I try to take a fast 3rd because my opponent is scared of bio pushes, I WON'T have enough units to survive any push that he ends up doing because he spotted a fast 3rd. Bunkers, sure, but you can even use forcefield to stop terran's DEFENSE the same way you used to it to stop their OFFENSE. Go watch GSL game on xelnaga with MC vs Jinro (i think that was the game) where MC 3gate expanded, pushed, jinro had 3 bunkers and it wasnt even close because of forcefield on bunkers. Jinro lost easily.
I just feel Protoss controls the game too much and terran isn't the sort of class that can properly respond all the time. Just look at the MC vs Jinro games from GSL3, if jinro blindly does builds, he gets raped. With zerg, the reason you can respond to terran quickly is because of larvae mechanics and super fast tech switches, but with terran, you just can't do that.
The replays show very passive terrans who do their harass quite horrible.
In TvP T is forced to play very aggresive when using bio as large fights just not favor the T. The game with Servy for example there isn't 1 good drop from servy and the micro from the terran is quite poor. I do admit that for T to win in a macro game it is quite hard but T also has lots more options, good dropship play is also insanely hard to defend so it really isn't that bad for terran. The replays just never show usage of two-pronged attacks or good drops. Key strenght of terran bio is it's amazing mobility and strength in small battles along with terran's good defenses (PF and bunkers).
The best way to play TvP imo is just to play bio with lots of aggresiveness while using a few tanks and PF's to stop the P from just basetrading. PF and/or bunkers with a few tanks is very hard to break for P and that way you can continuously have a few dropships flying all over the map, when you do force the big fight you just need some good EMP's and you will have a fine chance of winning it. For small maps however mech is a fine choice as that basically reverses the role's: T will be slow and strong while P will be more mobile and needs to drop.
Economy is only a small part of it in these lategame battle's. In all the replays mana wasn't far behind in economy and he simply had much better multitasking then his terran opponents.
On January 26 2011 00:02 Bagi wrote: This is a byproduct of the fact that we cannot compete with 4+ colossi or the colossi + HT combo. Terran benefits way more from army trades and smaller numbers, so they are forced to be aggressive.
Sjow was impressive in his games against Whitera, but even then he didnt go into multiple bases and into a macro game, as it will only benefit the toss in the long run. He just took a different approach and opted for heavy drops instead of running his boyz into the protoss deathball, and yeah it does work really well, but its pretty damn hard to pull off as well as he did.
That's pure Bullshit, Watch Dreamhack finals.
Mana barely survived in those matches, most times, even when he had Colossus and Templars, and he could have died easily, while the aggression most times was in Naama's favor.
Templars are the only things that even keep this matchup winnable for Protoss, against M&M Spam. and still good Ghost micro can counter that.
Stating Terran cannot play Lategame doesn't make it a fact. You may be can not, others can, as Jinro showes it.
His recent Match against MC on GSL was won 2-0 by Jinro.
Its just that Terrans like to abuse their Early Advantage alot, wasting of course Economy, then are behind if the game goes into the long run.
If Terrans early gets fixed, then finally we will see some more people getting into Macro Style of Play.
On January 26 2011 00:31 emidanRKO wrote: I just feel Protoss controls the game too much and terran isn't the sort of class that can properly respond all the time. Just look at the MC vs Jinro games from GSL3, if jinro blindly does builds, he gets raped. With zerg, the reason you can respond to terran quickly is because of larvae mechanics and super fast tech switches, but with terran, you just can't do that.
Yes people listen to this man, Terran is the reactionary race that has to adapt to the strategies of zerg and protoss - we got it all wrong I guess! Terrible, all these super-aggressive 15 hatch and 2 gate robo timing pushs, without perfect scouting Terran dies instantly.
On January 26 2011 00:02 Bagi wrote: This is a byproduct of the fact that we cannot compete with 4+ colossi or the colossi + HT combo. Terran benefits way more from army trades and smaller numbers, so they are forced to be aggressive.
Sjow was impressive in his games against Whitera, but even then he didnt go into multiple bases and into a macro game, as it will only benefit the toss in the long run. He just took a different approach and opted for heavy drops instead of running his boyz into the protoss deathball, and yeah it does work really well, but its pretty damn hard to pull off as well as he did.
That's pure Bullshit, Watch Dreamhack finals.
Mana barely survived in those matches, most times, even when he had Colossus and Templars, and he could have died easily, while the aggression most times was in Naama's favor.
Templars are the only things that even keep this matchup winnable for Protoss, against M&M Spam. and still good Ghost micro can counter that.
Wait a minute now. The two games Mana took in Dreamhack were both the ones where he managed to fend off the deathpush from Naama and they became macro games. The games where Naama (the terran) won were the ones where he contained the toss before there were too many HT and colossi for him to handle. Toss wins the macro games, terran wins with early timing pushes... How do these games prove me being wrong again?
Point is, I'm not saying that the moment toss gets 1-2 HT and colossi the game is over for terran. I'm saying that in the long run, these units outshine their terran counters and it usually ends up going badly for the terran player. Which is exactly what happened at dreamhack too.
On January 26 2011 00:31 emidanRKO wrote: I just feel Protoss controls the game too much and terran isn't the sort of class that can properly respond all the time. Just look at the MC vs Jinro games from GSL3, if jinro blindly does builds, he gets raped. With zerg, the reason you can respond to terran quickly is because of larvae mechanics and super fast tech switches, but with terran, you just can't do that.
Yes people listen to this man, Terran is the reactionary race that has to adapt to the strategies of zerg and protoss - we got it all wrong I guess! Terrible, all these super-aggressive 15 hatch and 2 gate robo timing pushs, without perfect scouting Terran dies instantly.
Why do I still bother...
Are ya dumb? I said only vs protoss. If protoss goes dts, do we sit here and say nah thats ok im just gonna not make any detection because it doesnt effect me. If protoss goes 4gate, do I say nah its alright I always have enough units to handle this. If protoss early expands, do we sit back and say "hah, terran can easily outmacro protoss anyways, let me just expand right away too". If protoss goes void ray, you dont just keep doing what you are doing, you react to it with bunkers, more marines, and possibly a viking if you teched up. The only response protoss ever does is kinda set in stone with sentries (you get them anyway as forcefields and guardian shield are amazing in big battles) or observers(you get them anyway to actually see what's going on, not just for cloaked banshees...
On January 26 2011 00:49 emidanRKO wrote: Are ya dumb? I said only vs protoss. If protoss goes dts, do we sit here and say nah thats ok im just gonna not make any detection because it doesnt effect me. If protoss goes 4gate, do I say nah its alright I always have enough units to handle this. If protoss early expands, do we sit back and say "hah, terran can easily outmacro protoss anyways, let me just expand right away too". If protoss goes void ray, you dont just keep doing what you are doing, you react to it with bunkers, more marines, and possibly a viking if you teched up. The only response protoss ever does is kinda set in stone with sentries (you get them anyway as forcefields and guardian shield are amazing in big battles) or observers(you get them anyway to actually see what's going on, not just for cloaked banshees...
Yeah, and Protoss has to react too, against Proxies Raxes Against Raven Pushes Against Drops Against Mass Marine Style Against Tank Play Against Mass Marauder Play
Each of those things require different adaption for Protoss as well to not to die. Ignoring that shows just that you are narrow minded.
So whats your Point?... Protoss can play without scouting? untrue, the whole reason protoss has to get Robo fast, so we are even able to scout Protoss doesn't have to play reactionary?...
On January 26 2011 00:49 emidanRKO wrote: Are ya dumb? I said only vs protoss. If protoss goes dts, do we sit here and say nah thats ok im just gonna not make any detection because it doesnt effect me. If protoss goes 4gate, do I say nah its alright I always have enough units to handle this. If protoss early expands, do we sit back and say "hah, terran can easily outmacro protoss anyways, let me just expand right away too". If protoss goes void ray, you dont just keep doing what you are doing, you react to it with bunkers, more marines, and possibly a viking if you teched up. The only response protoss ever does is kinda set in stone with sentries (you get them anyway as forcefields and guardian shield are amazing in big battles) or observers(you get them anyway to actually see what's going on, not just for cloaked banshees...
Yeah, and Protoss has to react too, against Proxies Raxes Against Raven Pushes Against Drops
Whats your Point?...
Proxy raxes, hah, I think maybe in the bronze league you'll have some fun with that.
Raven pushes tend to be just 1 base pushes which ANY race can do, and the opponent always HAS to respond to 1 base pushes.
Every race can do drops...if a zerg has 20 overlords ready to drop something in my base I'm not going to just leave that alone, either.
On January 26 2011 00:49 emidanRKO wrote: Are ya dumb? I said only vs protoss. If protoss goes dts, do we sit here and say nah thats ok im just gonna not make any detection because it doesnt effect me. If protoss goes 4gate, do I say nah its alright I always have enough units to handle this. If protoss early expands, do we sit back and say "hah, terran can easily outmacro protoss anyways, let me just expand right away too". If protoss goes void ray, you dont just keep doing what you are doing, you react to it with bunkers, more marines, and possibly a viking if you teched up. The only response protoss ever does is kinda set in stone with sentries (you get them anyway as forcefields and guardian shield are amazing in big battles) or observers(you get them anyway to actually see what's going on, not just for cloaked banshees...
Yeah, and Protoss has to react too, against Proxies Raxes Against Raven Pushes Against Drops Against Mass Marine Style Against Tank Play Against Mass Marauder Play
Each of those things require different adaption for Protoss as well to not to die. Ignoring that shows just that you are narrow minded.
So whats your Point?... Protoss can play without scouting? untrue, the whole reason protoss has to get Robo fast, so we are even able to scout Protoss doesn't have to play reactionary?...
posting again because you edited..
You say against mass marine style and against mass marauder style, uh, I'm pretty sure even if those were combined you would end up with the same reaction - colusus or ht or both. Most of the reactionary stuff is supposed to matter more early game and thats what I'm referring to. Tank play early game can be either 2 things - marine/tank with scvs to be pulled is an all-in, or is supposed to be. If you're going mech with tank play then that might be a thing for protoss to respond to, but no way is this response going to put you in any trouble later on or put you behind in econ at that moment (going void rays/double expanding because mech doesnt attack for a while). If you go dt's and I went lots of rax, I'm forced to make turrets which won't be of any use later on at all. Maybe a raven, but that will force me to tech all the way up to them and get the gas for them which could've been spent again on much more important things.
Like I said, when Protoss has to react to what terran does, it is almost always something they were going to do anyways. The only time this doesnt apply is when we go mech, but in that case we are just asking to get destroyed in economy or killed early.
On January 26 2011 00:55 emidanRKO wrote: Proxy raxes, hah, I think maybe in the bronze league you'll have some fun with that.
Foxer (Marine King) played Proxy Raxes against MC...
shall i just waste my time to collect all those proxy play replays in GSL just to prove taht you are wrong?
my god...
Oh, alright, so 1 terran who is KNOWN to do these kind of plays in all matchups is supposed to prove me wrong? Maybe if you can collect some replays of a lot of other top players doing proxy raxes and having a good win then I'll admit.
EPT
and doing some kind of early tech build VR pushes just own me so bad since I usualy dont have stim yet
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