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On January 25 2011 22:46 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2011 21:37 Thrombozyt wrote:On January 25 2011 20:46 sleepingdog wrote:On January 25 2011 20:26 Dente wrote:On January 25 2011 19:11 Lurk wrote:On January 25 2011 10:40 Reborn8u wrote:Obviously, late game isn't an issue for me, amulet is insane and colossus at critical mass are insane as well. But early game I just get suffocated by pressure and nothing I can make except FF can deal with terrans infantry well. It's just so hard to get enough gas to have an army that can keep me alive and get colossus or HT's out. After every battle I loose units have to spend a lot of gas to replace them. Terrans have just gotten so good at baiting force fields. Many times they get 1 early ghost and emp my units. I honestly don't see why so many terrans bitch about storm. 80 damage, but most of it can be dodged and it's very expensive to tech to (which weakens my army as I'm waiting for it) But emp doesn't even have to be researched, does 100 dmg to shields and is instant and can't be dodged. It also counters HT and FF. Also, the ghosts can cloak. Now, imagine if storm worked like that and didn't have to be researched. I wish I understood better what these toss are doing that is making the terrans feel like they're op. I for the life of me cannot figure this matchup out from the protoss side. If I expo to early or tech to early I just die. This sums up the current state of the matchup pretty well. If terran goes bio he has a large timing window where bio >> gateway (basically once stim is finished and until storms/rangecolls come out). This timing window is where terran dominates and toss can't really do anything else than sit in his base and ff his ramp to stall for his tech. However, if the terran fails to kill the toss inside that timing window, it's the other way around - Collossi and/or storm >> bio. Now the terran can't really do anything besides trying to wear down the toss by indirect engagements (hit-and-run, drops). I'm not saying that the matchup is imbalanced one way or another, i'm just saying that i'm not satisfied with the current situation that i basically have to win the game early (which is very much possible) or fight an uphill battle in the lategame. I don't like to do 1-base timing pushes or allins, but i feel like i'm forced to do these if i want to win. Give me a viable alternative and i will gladly accept it (preferably something that actually works, not some "lol go thors the pwn" bullshit). You forget 1 thing. That timing where there are no collossae or HT's is very small + so many protoss players underestimate the power of forcefields. Watch mc crushing terrans with forcefields. So it's more like this: - you will have a timing where terran will lose his army thanks to forcefields. - then the collossus enter the play so your bioball will be much weaker - then HT's + amulet enter the game and you will only win if you are much better then your opponent. Timing window for terran? I don't see it. I'm one of those terrans that never allins. I prefer to play a macrogame. I can only again emphasize that I don't understand why you don't use window 1 (from forcefields to colossi) to outexpand while dropping. Forcefields are actually 100% useless against a drop, and if I as a toss have to keep parts of my army at home, there's no way in hell I'm going to attack you with my first colossi when I can't take my whole army with me. So tell me, what prevents you from getting a third at this point? I firmly believe that terran has to be played like toss was played in BW - you outexpand, drop, keep your opponent busy while taking the map. You don't have to be Sjow and drop main and expo at the same time while attacking to beat non-pro toss-players....constant drops at different locations while staying defensive should really prevent your opponent from attacking your third. Getting outexpanded while being on two base is definitely my biggest fear when playing PvT right now. Why don't terrans outexpand a toss, while having more units than him and teching up simultaneously? Because you cannot tech and expand and mass up units at the same time, or you end up with a half-ass progress in each of the three fields (late expo, late tech and too few units to really do shit). - Units and expand is popular, but that leads to your troops not being able to breach the toss ramp due to force field. It gives your economy a head start, but you expose yourself to a colossus timing and even if you get out vikings in time, you ceed mapcontrol to the toss death ball allowing he toss to catch up in expansions and tech up to the dreaded HT+amulet. This is exactly what I'm talking about. Approximately 80% of my terran-opponents try to engage against my forcefields out of a reason unknown to me. Yes your units are stronger, but WHY, why the hell do you feel the desperate urge to just go and kill me? You don't actually have to suicide half of your army each and every game, you can just stay defensive (which requires a helluva less stuff with bunkers) and out-macro the toss. Also I mentioned drops to keep toss in his base. What's he gonna do, kill you with the oh so powerful 2 colossus timing attack that we've seen....umm.....never in the last couple of months? 90% of the PvT games I see where terran loses, the T either throws parts of his army away early which means he has to reproduce and can't tech, or the T just masses units on 2 base and doesn't take advantage of his high mobility at all. On the other hand, I rarely see a toss win against a drop-terran who uses drops to outexpand a toss or just kill him with the multi-pronged attacks (see sjow vs white-ra).
This is a byproduct of the fact that we cannot compete with 4+ colossi or the colossi + HT combo. Terran benefits way more from army trades and smaller numbers, so they are forced to be aggressive.
Sjow was impressive in his games against Whitera, but even then he didnt go into multiple bases and into a macro game, as it will only benefit the toss in the long run. He just took a different approach and opted for heavy drops instead of running his boyz into the protoss deathball, and yeah it does work really well, but its pretty damn hard to pull off as well as he did.
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On January 26 2011 00:02 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2011 22:46 sleepingdog wrote:On January 25 2011 21:37 Thrombozyt wrote:On January 25 2011 20:46 sleepingdog wrote:On January 25 2011 20:26 Dente wrote:On January 25 2011 19:11 Lurk wrote:On January 25 2011 10:40 Reborn8u wrote:Obviously, late game isn't an issue for me, amulet is insane and colossus at critical mass are insane as well. But early game I just get suffocated by pressure and nothing I can make except FF can deal with terrans infantry well. It's just so hard to get enough gas to have an army that can keep me alive and get colossus or HT's out. After every battle I loose units have to spend a lot of gas to replace them. Terrans have just gotten so good at baiting force fields. Many times they get 1 early ghost and emp my units. I honestly don't see why so many terrans bitch about storm. 80 damage, but most of it can be dodged and it's very expensive to tech to (which weakens my army as I'm waiting for it) But emp doesn't even have to be researched, does 100 dmg to shields and is instant and can't be dodged. It also counters HT and FF. Also, the ghosts can cloak. Now, imagine if storm worked like that and didn't have to be researched. I wish I understood better what these toss are doing that is making the terrans feel like they're op. I for the life of me cannot figure this matchup out from the protoss side. If I expo to early or tech to early I just die. This sums up the current state of the matchup pretty well. If terran goes bio he has a large timing window where bio >> gateway (basically once stim is finished and until storms/rangecolls come out). This timing window is where terran dominates and toss can't really do anything else than sit in his base and ff his ramp to stall for his tech. However, if the terran fails to kill the toss inside that timing window, it's the other way around - Collossi and/or storm >> bio. Now the terran can't really do anything besides trying to wear down the toss by indirect engagements (hit-and-run, drops). I'm not saying that the matchup is imbalanced one way or another, i'm just saying that i'm not satisfied with the current situation that i basically have to win the game early (which is very much possible) or fight an uphill battle in the lategame. I don't like to do 1-base timing pushes or allins, but i feel like i'm forced to do these if i want to win. Give me a viable alternative and i will gladly accept it (preferably something that actually works, not some "lol go thors the pwn" bullshit). You forget 1 thing. That timing where there are no collossae or HT's is very small + so many protoss players underestimate the power of forcefields. Watch mc crushing terrans with forcefields. So it's more like this: - you will have a timing where terran will lose his army thanks to forcefields. - then the collossus enter the play so your bioball will be much weaker - then HT's + amulet enter the game and you will only win if you are much better then your opponent. Timing window for terran? I don't see it. I'm one of those terrans that never allins. I prefer to play a macrogame. I can only again emphasize that I don't understand why you don't use window 1 (from forcefields to colossi) to outexpand while dropping. Forcefields are actually 100% useless against a drop, and if I as a toss have to keep parts of my army at home, there's no way in hell I'm going to attack you with my first colossi when I can't take my whole army with me. So tell me, what prevents you from getting a third at this point? I firmly believe that terran has to be played like toss was played in BW - you outexpand, drop, keep your opponent busy while taking the map. You don't have to be Sjow and drop main and expo at the same time while attacking to beat non-pro toss-players....constant drops at different locations while staying defensive should really prevent your opponent from attacking your third. Getting outexpanded while being on two base is definitely my biggest fear when playing PvT right now. Why don't terrans outexpand a toss, while having more units than him and teching up simultaneously? Because you cannot tech and expand and mass up units at the same time, or you end up with a half-ass progress in each of the three fields (late expo, late tech and too few units to really do shit). - Units and expand is popular, but that leads to your troops not being able to breach the toss ramp due to force field. It gives your economy a head start, but you expose yourself to a colossus timing and even if you get out vikings in time, you ceed mapcontrol to the toss death ball allowing he toss to catch up in expansions and tech up to the dreaded HT+amulet. This is exactly what I'm talking about. Approximately 80% of my terran-opponents try to engage against my forcefields out of a reason unknown to me. Yes your units are stronger, but WHY, why the hell do you feel the desperate urge to just go and kill me? You don't actually have to suicide half of your army each and every game, you can just stay defensive (which requires a helluva less stuff with bunkers) and out-macro the toss. Also I mentioned drops to keep toss in his base. What's he gonna do, kill you with the oh so powerful 2 colossus timing attack that we've seen....umm.....never in the last couple of months? 90% of the PvT games I see where terran loses, the T either throws parts of his army away early which means he has to reproduce and can't tech, or the T just masses units on 2 base and doesn't take advantage of his high mobility at all. On the other hand, I rarely see a toss win against a drop-terran who uses drops to outexpand a toss or just kill him with the multi-pronged attacks (see sjow vs white-ra). This is a byproduct of the fact that we cannot compete with 4+ colossi or the colossi + HT combo. Terran benefits way more from army trades and smaller numbers, so they are forced to be aggressive. Sjow was impressive in his games against Whitera, but even then he didnt go into multiple bases and into a macro game, as it will only benefit the toss in the long run. He just took a different approach and opted for heavy drops instead of running his boyz into the protoss deathball, and yeah it does work really well, but its pretty damn hard to pull off as well as he did.
Then watch gsl januari, terran can compete with the Collosi + HT combi better yet they can just destroy it with ghost viking marine maurders .... Just go check all the TvP of gsl
then we talk again about what is possible or not
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On January 26 2011 00:15 JDeathmetal wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 00:02 Bagi wrote:On January 25 2011 22:46 sleepingdog wrote:On January 25 2011 21:37 Thrombozyt wrote:On January 25 2011 20:46 sleepingdog wrote:On January 25 2011 20:26 Dente wrote:On January 25 2011 19:11 Lurk wrote:On January 25 2011 10:40 Reborn8u wrote:Obviously, late game isn't an issue for me, amulet is insane and colossus at critical mass are insane as well. But early game I just get suffocated by pressure and nothing I can make except FF can deal with terrans infantry well. It's just so hard to get enough gas to have an army that can keep me alive and get colossus or HT's out. After every battle I loose units have to spend a lot of gas to replace them. Terrans have just gotten so good at baiting force fields. Many times they get 1 early ghost and emp my units. I honestly don't see why so many terrans bitch about storm. 80 damage, but most of it can be dodged and it's very expensive to tech to (which weakens my army as I'm waiting for it) But emp doesn't even have to be researched, does 100 dmg to shields and is instant and can't be dodged. It also counters HT and FF. Also, the ghosts can cloak. Now, imagine if storm worked like that and didn't have to be researched. I wish I understood better what these toss are doing that is making the terrans feel like they're op. I for the life of me cannot figure this matchup out from the protoss side. If I expo to early or tech to early I just die. This sums up the current state of the matchup pretty well. If terran goes bio he has a large timing window where bio >> gateway (basically once stim is finished and until storms/rangecolls come out). This timing window is where terran dominates and toss can't really do anything else than sit in his base and ff his ramp to stall for his tech. However, if the terran fails to kill the toss inside that timing window, it's the other way around - Collossi and/or storm >> bio. Now the terran can't really do anything besides trying to wear down the toss by indirect engagements (hit-and-run, drops). I'm not saying that the matchup is imbalanced one way or another, i'm just saying that i'm not satisfied with the current situation that i basically have to win the game early (which is very much possible) or fight an uphill battle in the lategame. I don't like to do 1-base timing pushes or allins, but i feel like i'm forced to do these if i want to win. Give me a viable alternative and i will gladly accept it (preferably something that actually works, not some "lol go thors the pwn" bullshit). You forget 1 thing. That timing where there are no collossae or HT's is very small + so many protoss players underestimate the power of forcefields. Watch mc crushing terrans with forcefields. So it's more like this: - you will have a timing where terran will lose his army thanks to forcefields. - then the collossus enter the play so your bioball will be much weaker - then HT's + amulet enter the game and you will only win if you are much better then your opponent. Timing window for terran? I don't see it. I'm one of those terrans that never allins. I prefer to play a macrogame. I can only again emphasize that I don't understand why you don't use window 1 (from forcefields to colossi) to outexpand while dropping. Forcefields are actually 100% useless against a drop, and if I as a toss have to keep parts of my army at home, there's no way in hell I'm going to attack you with my first colossi when I can't take my whole army with me. So tell me, what prevents you from getting a third at this point? I firmly believe that terran has to be played like toss was played in BW - you outexpand, drop, keep your opponent busy while taking the map. You don't have to be Sjow and drop main and expo at the same time while attacking to beat non-pro toss-players....constant drops at different locations while staying defensive should really prevent your opponent from attacking your third. Getting outexpanded while being on two base is definitely my biggest fear when playing PvT right now. Why don't terrans outexpand a toss, while having more units than him and teching up simultaneously? Because you cannot tech and expand and mass up units at the same time, or you end up with a half-ass progress in each of the three fields (late expo, late tech and too few units to really do shit). - Units and expand is popular, but that leads to your troops not being able to breach the toss ramp due to force field. It gives your economy a head start, but you expose yourself to a colossus timing and even if you get out vikings in time, you ceed mapcontrol to the toss death ball allowing he toss to catch up in expansions and tech up to the dreaded HT+amulet. This is exactly what I'm talking about. Approximately 80% of my terran-opponents try to engage against my forcefields out of a reason unknown to me. Yes your units are stronger, but WHY, why the hell do you feel the desperate urge to just go and kill me? You don't actually have to suicide half of your army each and every game, you can just stay defensive (which requires a helluva less stuff with bunkers) and out-macro the toss. Also I mentioned drops to keep toss in his base. What's he gonna do, kill you with the oh so powerful 2 colossus timing attack that we've seen....umm.....never in the last couple of months? 90% of the PvT games I see where terran loses, the T either throws parts of his army away early which means he has to reproduce and can't tech, or the T just masses units on 2 base and doesn't take advantage of his high mobility at all. On the other hand, I rarely see a toss win against a drop-terran who uses drops to outexpand a toss or just kill him with the multi-pronged attacks (see sjow vs white-ra). This is a byproduct of the fact that we cannot compete with 4+ colossi or the colossi + HT combo. Terran benefits way more from army trades and smaller numbers, so they are forced to be aggressive. Sjow was impressive in his games against Whitera, but even then he didnt go into multiple bases and into a macro game, as it will only benefit the toss in the long run. He just took a different approach and opted for heavy drops instead of running his boyz into the protoss deathball, and yeah it does work really well, but its pretty damn hard to pull off as well as he did. Then watch gsl januari, terran can compete with the Collosi + HT combi better yet they can just destroy it with ghost viking marine maurders .... Just go check all the TvP of gsl then we talk again about what is possible or not
Gee, that wasnt vague at all. TvP of GSL. All of them?
The general consensus, to which even Blizzard agreed back at Blizzcon, is that terran is stronger early weaker late game. This is the general idea, but of course there will be exceptions. If for example the terran manages to get an early game lead a macro game can be quite manageable. Terran can counter HT + colossi, but it doesnt change the fact that the protoss units are stronger if all other things are equal.
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On January 25 2011 23:29 mads wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2011 23:13 thesmoosh wrote:On January 25 2011 21:37 Thrombozyt wrote:On January 25 2011 20:46 sleepingdog wrote:On January 25 2011 20:26 Dente wrote:On January 25 2011 19:11 Lurk wrote:On January 25 2011 10:40 Reborn8u wrote:Obviously, late game isn't an issue for me, amulet is insane and colossus at critical mass are insane as well. But early game I just get suffocated by pressure and nothing I can make except FF can deal with terrans infantry well. It's just so hard to get enough gas to have an army that can keep me alive and get colossus or HT's out. After every battle I loose units have to spend a lot of gas to replace them. Terrans have just gotten so good at baiting force fields. Many times they get 1 early ghost and emp my units. I honestly don't see why so many terrans bitch about storm. 80 damage, but most of it can be dodged and it's very expensive to tech to (which weakens my army as I'm waiting for it) But emp doesn't even have to be researched, does 100 dmg to shields and is instant and can't be dodged. It also counters HT and FF. Also, the ghosts can cloak. Now, imagine if storm worked like that and didn't have to be researched. I wish I understood better what these toss are doing that is making the terrans feel like they're op. I for the life of me cannot figure this matchup out from the protoss side. If I expo to early or tech to early I just die. This sums up the current state of the matchup pretty well. If terran goes bio he has a large timing window where bio >> gateway (basically once stim is finished and until storms/rangecolls come out). This timing window is where terran dominates and toss can't really do anything else than sit in his base and ff his ramp to stall for his tech. However, if the terran fails to kill the toss inside that timing window, it's the other way around - Collossi and/or storm >> bio. Now the terran can't really do anything besides trying to wear down the toss by indirect engagements (hit-and-run, drops). I'm not saying that the matchup is imbalanced one way or another, i'm just saying that i'm not satisfied with the current situation that i basically have to win the game early (which is very much possible) or fight an uphill battle in the lategame. I don't like to do 1-base timing pushes or allins, but i feel like i'm forced to do these if i want to win. Give me a viable alternative and i will gladly accept it (preferably something that actually works, not some "lol go thors the pwn" bullshit). You forget 1 thing. That timing where there are no collossae or HT's is very small + so many protoss players underestimate the power of forcefields. Watch mc crushing terrans with forcefields. So it's more like this: - you will have a timing where terran will lose his army thanks to forcefields. - then the collossus enter the play so your bioball will be much weaker - then HT's + amulet enter the game and you will only win if you are much better then your opponent. Timing window for terran? I don't see it. I'm one of those terrans that never allins. I prefer to play a macrogame. I can only again emphasize that I don't understand why you don't use window 1 (from forcefields to colossi) to outexpand while dropping. Forcefields are actually 100% useless against a drop, and if I as a toss have to keep parts of my army at home, there's no way in hell I'm going to attack you with my first colossi when I can't take my whole army with me. So tell me, what prevents you from getting a third at this point? I firmly believe that terran has to be played like toss was played in BW - you outexpand, drop, keep your opponent busy while taking the map. You don't have to be Sjow and drop main and expo at the same time while attacking to beat non-pro toss-players....constant drops at different locations while staying defensive should really prevent your opponent from attacking your third. Getting outexpanded while being on two base is definitely my biggest fear when playing PvT right now. Why don't terrans outexpand a toss, while having more units than him and teching up simultaneously? Because you cannot tech and expand and mass up units at the same time, or you end up with a half-ass progress in each of the three fields (late expo, late tech and too few units to really do shit). So which two areas do you focus on? - Tech and units is popular and leads to the timing pushes. But they have a tendency to be foiled by aggressive 4 gate pushes or 3 gate voidray, that hit before you have your high tech units (raven/banshee/thor) ready. Also toss turtling on one base will give you trouble, because force field can deny your ground troops access (Thor rushes deny force fields, which is why they are popular). - Units and expand is popular, but that leads to your troops not being able to breach the toss ramp due to force field. It gives your economy a head start, but you expose yourself to a colossus timing and even if you get out vikings in time, you ceed mapcontrol to the toss death ball allowing he toss to catch up in expansions and tech up to the dreaded HT+amulet. - Tech and expand leaves you open to many early pushes. You can manage, but you have failed to capitalize on your strong infantry. This is how most build start out with mech, relying on tank turtle to get their natural. But that cedes the map to the toss and he can do whatever he want, leading to the 'mech vs late game toss' scenario with toss having extra workers due to chronoboost and possible being expansions up. And for medivac airlift to counter forcefield: 1) Medivacs take a while, when you also have to research stim and other stuff. They cost quite some gas. 2) Dropping when the toss expects it and has only 1 base to defend is suicidal. Especially considering that toss needs only 2 sentries at his ramp and can devote the rest of his units to kill the units as they drop out of the medivac (if he doesn't get the medivac). There is a reason that there are numerous timing pushes but none of the successful ones involves medivacs. EDIT: I also want to throw in: Sufficient forcefields enable toss gateway units to beat infantry. I have learned that the hard way. If you do a two rax expand, he does a 1 or 2 gate expand and then try to pressure the toss after stim is done, he will be able to fend your push off with forcefields and tech on two bases and then you are screwed. /thread This post pretty much sums everything up. I agree that early game T has a unit advantage in a straight up fight, but good forcefield play mostly negates that (force fields are harder than stim and A move, but we're not talking about platinum here). I think in the end the problem is Terran T3 units. As a protoss there are multiple death balls you can make, using various unit comps that can scare the crap out of a terran (any combination of collossus/carrier/high temps, especially with charge), whereas a terran can get bio and more bio. Battlecruisers were simply nerfed into uselessness. Thors are pretty good against ground armies but their damage against armored air is just laughable. I think until something is done with BCs or Thor armored air attack, TvP will be a race against the clock. For the record, I have something like 80% winrate against protoss, mainly because my style involves mass T1 unit aggression and expansion and my macro is much better than the people at my level (around 2.5k dimaond), so this isn't whining. I'd just like the option to play a different style in the matchup instead of going balls to the wall every game and trying to hurt him early. It just limits possibilities. Forcefield can't be mostly negating anything if you still have a winrate that high using that style. I personally think Terran's QQing about late game aren't as good at macro (which is fair, you don't get to practice it as often since both TvP and TvZ can be won with strong early pushes) and fail to use ghosts. T1 Terran units scale much better than gateway units, they just melt easily to splash, but getting free shots on colossus with vikings, using drops, ghosts etc... I find Terran late game to be stronger than Protoss's if used properly. Ghosts are underused and underrated. They have a spell that halfs the HP of most protoss units instantly AND prevents the use of both forcefields and psi storm. At the pro level there has already started to be a shift towards Terran in TvP and I think as time goes on it'll shift further across the board (maybe not below platinum level, since 4 gate etc will never change). But, maybe Protoss will respond to a shift with new builds and it'll change further. Who knows. As is, right at this very moment, Terran is pretty darn strong in both TvZ and TvP matchups, both early and late game.
when I face 2500 diamond players, those guys arent good enough still to have well enough forcefields to negate early pushes. trust me...atleast not most of them.
So you personally feel terran players in general have bad macro because we're used to winning early? I'd like to see you play terran and try to outmacro a competent protoss, please link replays as well.
I'm a macro player, I hate trying to end games early, but I've started to go away from this style as it's getting extremely difficult to do so with the ridiculous protoss armies that I end up facing. The poster who mentioned the 2 diff type of styles you can have is absolutely right in this case. You CAN'T expand, tech, and make enough units to survive pushes at the same time. If I try to take a fast 3rd because my opponent is scared of bio pushes, I WON'T have enough units to survive any push that he ends up doing because he spotted a fast 3rd. Bunkers, sure, but you can even use forcefield to stop terran's DEFENSE the same way you used to it to stop their OFFENSE. Go watch GSL game on xelnaga with MC vs Jinro (i think that was the game) where MC 3gate expanded, pushed, jinro had 3 bunkers and it wasnt even close because of forcefield on bunkers. Jinro lost easily.
I just feel Protoss controls the game too much and terran isn't the sort of class that can properly respond all the time. Just look at the MC vs Jinro games from GSL3, if jinro blindly does builds, he gets raped. With zerg, the reason you can respond to terran quickly is because of larvae mechanics and super fast tech switches, but with terran, you just can't do that.
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The replays show very passive terrans who do their harass quite horrible.
In TvP T is forced to play very aggresive when using bio as large fights just not favor the T. The game with Servy for example there isn't 1 good drop from servy and the micro from the terran is quite poor.
I do admit that for T to win in a macro game it is quite hard but T also has lots more options, good dropship play is also insanely hard to defend so it really isn't that bad for terran.
The replays just never show usage of two-pronged attacks or good drops. Key strenght of terran bio is it's amazing mobility and strength in small battles along with terran's good defenses (PF and bunkers).
The best way to play TvP imo is just to play bio with lots of aggresiveness while using a few tanks and PF's to stop the P from just basetrading. PF and/or bunkers with a few tanks is very hard to break for P and that way you can continuously have a few dropships flying all over the map, when you do force the big fight you just need some good EMP's and you will have a fine chance of winning it.
For small maps however mech is a fine choice as that basically reverses the role's: T will be slow and strong while P will be more mobile and needs to drop.
Economy is only a small part of it in these lategame battle's. In all the replays mana wasn't far behind in economy and he simply had much better multitasking then his terran opponents.
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On January 26 2011 00:02 Bagi wrote:
This is a byproduct of the fact that we cannot compete with 4+ colossi or the colossi + HT combo. Terran benefits way more from army trades and smaller numbers, so they are forced to be aggressive.
Sjow was impressive in his games against Whitera, but even then he didnt go into multiple bases and into a macro game, as it will only benefit the toss in the long run. He just took a different approach and opted for heavy drops instead of running his boyz into the protoss deathball, and yeah it does work really well, but its pretty damn hard to pull off as well as he did.
That's pure Bullshit, Watch Dreamhack finals.
Mana barely survived in those matches, most times, even when he had Colossus and Templars, and he could have died easily, while the aggression most times was in Naama's favor.
Templars are the only things that even keep this matchup winnable for Protoss, against M&M Spam.
and still good Ghost micro can counter that.
Stating Terran cannot play Lategame doesn't make it a fact.
You may be can not, others can, as Jinro showes it.
His recent Match against MC on GSL was won 2-0 by Jinro.
Its just that Terrans like to abuse their Early Advantage alot, wasting of course Economy, then are behind if the game goes into the long run.
If Terrans early gets fixed, then finally we will see some more people getting into Macro Style of Play.
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On January 26 2011 00:31 emidanRKO wrote:
I just feel Protoss controls the game too much and terran isn't the sort of class that can properly respond all the time. Just look at the MC vs Jinro games from GSL3, if jinro blindly does builds, he gets raped. With zerg, the reason you can respond to terran quickly is because of larvae mechanics and super fast tech switches, but with terran, you just can't do that.
Yes people listen to this man, Terran is the reactionary race that has to adapt to the strategies of zerg and protoss - we got it all wrong I guess! Terrible, all these super-aggressive 15 hatch and 2 gate robo timing pushs, without perfect scouting Terran dies instantly.
Why do I still bother...
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On January 26 2011 00:40 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 00:02 Bagi wrote:
This is a byproduct of the fact that we cannot compete with 4+ colossi or the colossi + HT combo. Terran benefits way more from army trades and smaller numbers, so they are forced to be aggressive.
Sjow was impressive in his games against Whitera, but even then he didnt go into multiple bases and into a macro game, as it will only benefit the toss in the long run. He just took a different approach and opted for heavy drops instead of running his boyz into the protoss deathball, and yeah it does work really well, but its pretty damn hard to pull off as well as he did. That's pure Bullshit, Watch Dreamhack finals. Mana barely survived in those matches, most times, even when he had Colossus and Templars, and he could have died easily, while the aggression most times was in Naama's favor. Templars are the only things that even keep this matchup winnable for Protoss, against M&M Spam. and still good Ghost micro can counter that.
Wait a minute now. The two games Mana took in Dreamhack were both the ones where he managed to fend off the deathpush from Naama and they became macro games. The games where Naama (the terran) won were the ones where he contained the toss before there were too many HT and colossi for him to handle. Toss wins the macro games, terran wins with early timing pushes... How do these games prove me being wrong again?
Point is, I'm not saying that the moment toss gets 1-2 HT and colossi the game is over for terran. I'm saying that in the long run, these units outshine their terran counters and it usually ends up going badly for the terran player. Which is exactly what happened at dreamhack too.
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On January 26 2011 00:43 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 00:31 emidanRKO wrote:
I just feel Protoss controls the game too much and terran isn't the sort of class that can properly respond all the time. Just look at the MC vs Jinro games from GSL3, if jinro blindly does builds, he gets raped. With zerg, the reason you can respond to terran quickly is because of larvae mechanics and super fast tech switches, but with terran, you just can't do that. Yes people listen to this man, Terran is the reactionary race that has to adapt to the strategies of zerg and protoss - we got it all wrong I guess! Terrible, all these super-aggressive 15 hatch and 2 gate robo timing pushs, without perfect scouting Terran dies instantly. Why do I still bother...
Are ya dumb? I said only vs protoss. If protoss goes dts, do we sit here and say nah thats ok im just gonna not make any detection because it doesnt effect me. If protoss goes 4gate, do I say nah its alright I always have enough units to handle this. If protoss early expands, do we sit back and say "hah, terran can easily outmacro protoss anyways, let me just expand right away too". If protoss goes void ray, you dont just keep doing what you are doing, you react to it with bunkers, more marines, and possibly a viking if you teched up. The only response protoss ever does is kinda set in stone with sentries (you get them anyway as forcefields and guardian shield are amazing in big battles) or observers(you get them anyway to actually see what's going on, not just for cloaked banshees...
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On January 26 2011 00:49 emidanRKO wrote:
Are ya dumb? I said only vs protoss. If protoss goes dts, do we sit here and say nah thats ok im just gonna not make any detection because it doesnt effect me. If protoss goes 4gate, do I say nah its alright I always have enough units to handle this. If protoss early expands, do we sit back and say "hah, terran can easily outmacro protoss anyways, let me just expand right away too". If protoss goes void ray, you dont just keep doing what you are doing, you react to it with bunkers, more marines, and possibly a viking if you teched up. The only response protoss ever does is kinda set in stone with sentries (you get them anyway as forcefields and guardian shield are amazing in big battles) or observers(you get them anyway to actually see what's going on, not just for cloaked banshees...
Yeah, and Protoss has to react too, against
Proxies Raxes
Against Raven Pushes
Against Drops
Against Mass Marine Style
Against Tank Play
Against Mass Marauder Play
Each of those things require different adaption for Protoss as well to not to die.
Ignoring that shows just that you are narrow minded.
So whats your Point?...
Protoss can play without scouting? untrue, the whole reason protoss has to get Robo fast, so we are even able to scout
Protoss doesn't have to play reactionary?...
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On January 26 2011 00:52 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 00:49 emidanRKO wrote:
Are ya dumb? I said only vs protoss. If protoss goes dts, do we sit here and say nah thats ok im just gonna not make any detection because it doesnt effect me. If protoss goes 4gate, do I say nah its alright I always have enough units to handle this. If protoss early expands, do we sit back and say "hah, terran can easily outmacro protoss anyways, let me just expand right away too". If protoss goes void ray, you dont just keep doing what you are doing, you react to it with bunkers, more marines, and possibly a viking if you teched up. The only response protoss ever does is kinda set in stone with sentries (you get them anyway as forcefields and guardian shield are amazing in big battles) or observers(you get them anyway to actually see what's going on, not just for cloaked banshees... Yeah, and Protoss has to react too, against Proxies Raxes Against Raven Pushes Against Drops Whats your Point?...
Proxy raxes, hah, I think maybe in the bronze league you'll have some fun with that.
Raven pushes tend to be just 1 base pushes which ANY race can do, and the opponent always HAS to respond to 1 base pushes.
Every race can do drops...if a zerg has 20 overlords ready to drop something in my base I'm not going to just leave that alone, either.
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On January 26 2011 00:55 emidanRKO wrote:
Proxy raxes, hah, I think maybe in the bronze league you'll have some fun with that.
Foxer (Marine King) played Proxy Raxes against MC...
shall i just waste my time to collect all those proxy play replays in GSL just to prove taht you are wrong?
my god...
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On January 26 2011 00:52 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 00:49 emidanRKO wrote:
Are ya dumb? I said only vs protoss. If protoss goes dts, do we sit here and say nah thats ok im just gonna not make any detection because it doesnt effect me. If protoss goes 4gate, do I say nah its alright I always have enough units to handle this. If protoss early expands, do we sit back and say "hah, terran can easily outmacro protoss anyways, let me just expand right away too". If protoss goes void ray, you dont just keep doing what you are doing, you react to it with bunkers, more marines, and possibly a viking if you teched up. The only response protoss ever does is kinda set in stone with sentries (you get them anyway as forcefields and guardian shield are amazing in big battles) or observers(you get them anyway to actually see what's going on, not just for cloaked banshees... Yeah, and Protoss has to react too, against Proxies Raxes Against Raven Pushes Against Drops Against Mass Marine Style Against Tank Play Against Mass Marauder Play Each of those things require different adaption for Protoss as well to not to die. Ignoring that shows just that you are narrow minded. So whats your Point?... Protoss can play without scouting? untrue, the whole reason protoss has to get Robo fast, so we are even able to scout Protoss doesn't have to play reactionary?...
posting again because you edited..
You say against mass marine style and against mass marauder style, uh, I'm pretty sure even if those were combined you would end up with the same reaction - colusus or ht or both. Most of the reactionary stuff is supposed to matter more early game and thats what I'm referring to. Tank play early game can be either 2 things - marine/tank with scvs to be pulled is an all-in, or is supposed to be. If you're going mech with tank play then that might be a thing for protoss to respond to, but no way is this response going to put you in any trouble later on or put you behind in econ at that moment (going void rays/double expanding because mech doesnt attack for a while). If you go dt's and I went lots of rax, I'm forced to make turrets which won't be of any use later on at all. Maybe a raven, but that will force me to tech all the way up to them and get the gas for them which could've been spent again on much more important things.
Like I said, when Protoss has to react to what terran does, it is almost always something they were going to do anyways. The only time this doesnt apply is when we go mech, but in that case we are just asking to get destroyed in economy or killed early.
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On January 26 2011 01:00 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 00:55 emidanRKO wrote:
Proxy raxes, hah, I think maybe in the bronze league you'll have some fun with that.
Foxer (Marine King) played Proxy Raxes against MC... shall i just waste my time to collect all those proxy play replays in GSL just to prove taht you are wrong? my god...
Oh, alright, so 1 terran who is KNOWN to do these kind of plays in all matchups is supposed to prove me wrong? Maybe if you can collect some replays of a lot of other top players doing proxy raxes and having a good win then I'll admit.
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Zurich15302 Posts
Locked because seems at this point all that's left here is balance whining.
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EPT
