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On January 25 2011 03:14 Dente wrote:How many times do I have to repeat it? Jinro won with mech because 1) on lost temple: mc attacked into jinro's bunkers and failed. Then jinro contained him. In this scenario I always win my tvp, 100%. 2) on scrap station: small map with very few ways to the enemy base + WRONG unit composition from mc. Jinro scouted his carriers and had enough vikings. --> In both games there were a maximum of 3 bases taken by mc... Watch these 2 replays and then tell me honestly if mech is actually viable: http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/(T)mouzStrelok_vs_(P)nAni_lost_temple_sc2rep_com_20110110/4305 http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/()_vs_()__sc2rep_com_20110116/4503Terran tier 3 can't compete with protoss. To the guy suggesting MARINES to support your mech: 1 storm and they die. They are NOT viable late game. To the guy saying that you need a good composition and good positioning: what composition? Mech is mech. You can add air and you can add bio. Both will be destroyed. While you are positioning with mech, your opponent is expanding and countering your mech with air. Those people talking about "the right unit composition": I wonder what composition can compete with protoss lategame... Just watch those 2 replays from goody and strelok and see what a joke mechplay actually is, unless the protoss doesn't expand like a zerg and just makes stalker+zealot + ht.
I guess it is pretty clear that T is too strong in early game and too weak against P in late game. Even blizzard admit it. The patches did not fix this, as the problem lies in the infantries (MMM) with its high DPS and their ease of use.
Early game they are extremely strong, and this strength is the core of the problem (first ghost or viking are only supporting this core "strength" of Terran.) If you weaken them, late game marine will become even worse; however buffing them will also break early game.
To be honest, the only fix can only be done in expansion, we need more options in early game for P and T to defend MMM, then T can have better late game options to balance out. With the small number of unit choice now perfect balance is simply impossible.
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On January 25 2011 12:15 DarkwindHK wrote:
I guess it is pretty clear that T is too strong in early game and too weak against P in late game. Even blizzard admit it. The patches did not fix this, as the problem lies in the infantries (MMM) with its high DPS and their ease of use.
I basically agree, but could you please show us where blizzard said this?
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I am glad I'm not the only one struggling with P right now. For some reason they always seem to
Have more units. Also, Toss doesn't need ups at
the start, stim and concussive are a must, while warpin is a gimme upgrade. I can't find a good standard either.
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On January 25 2011 10:40 Reborn8u wrote:Obviously, late game isn't an issue for me, amulet is insane and colossus at critical mass are insane as well. But early game I just get suffocated by pressure and nothing I can make except FF can deal with terrans infantry well. It's just so hard to get enough gas to have an army that can keep me alive and get colossus or HT's out. After every battle I loose units have to spend a lot of gas to replace them. Terrans have just gotten so good at baiting force fields. Many times they get 1 early ghost and emp my units. I honestly don't see why so many terrans bitch about storm. 80 damage, but most of it can be dodged and it's very expensive to tech to (which weakens my army as I'm waiting for it) But emp doesn't even have to be researched, does 100 dmg to shields and is instant and can't be dodged. It also counters HT and FF. Also, the ghosts can cloak. Now, imagine if storm worked like that and didn't have to be researched. I wish I understood better what these toss are doing that is making the terrans feel like they're op. I for the life of me cannot figure this matchup out from the protoss side. If I expo to early or tech to early I just die.
This sums up the current state of the matchup pretty well. If terran goes bio he has a large timing window where bio >> gateway (basically once stim is finished and until storms/rangecolls come out). This timing window is where terran dominates and toss can't really do anything else than sit in his base and ff his ramp to stall for his tech. However, if the terran fails to kill the toss inside that timing window, it's the other way around - Collossi and/or storm >> bio. Now the terran can't really do anything besides trying to wear down the toss by indirect engagements (hit-and-run, drops).
I'm not saying that the matchup is imbalanced one way or another, i'm just saying that i'm not satisfied with the current situation that i basically have to win the game early (which is very much possible) or fight an uphill battle in the lategame. I don't like to do 1-base timing pushes or allins, but i feel like i'm forced to do these if i want to win. Give me a viable alternative and i will gladly accept it (preferably something that actually works, not some "lol go thors the pwn" bullshit).
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On January 25 2011 19:11 Lurk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2011 10:40 Reborn8u wrote:Obviously, late game isn't an issue for me, amulet is insane and colossus at critical mass are insane as well. But early game I just get suffocated by pressure and nothing I can make except FF can deal with terrans infantry well. It's just so hard to get enough gas to have an army that can keep me alive and get colossus or HT's out. After every battle I loose units have to spend a lot of gas to replace them. Terrans have just gotten so good at baiting force fields. Many times they get 1 early ghost and emp my units. I honestly don't see why so many terrans bitch about storm. 80 damage, but most of it can be dodged and it's very expensive to tech to (which weakens my army as I'm waiting for it) But emp doesn't even have to be researched, does 100 dmg to shields and is instant and can't be dodged. It also counters HT and FF. Also, the ghosts can cloak. Now, imagine if storm worked like that and didn't have to be researched. I wish I understood better what these toss are doing that is making the terrans feel like they're op. I for the life of me cannot figure this matchup out from the protoss side. If I expo to early or tech to early I just die. This sums up the current state of the matchup pretty well. If terran goes bio he has a large timing window where bio >> gateway (basically once stim is finished and until storms/rangecolls come out). This timing window is where terran dominates and toss can't really do anything else than sit in his base and ff his ramp to stall for his tech. However, if the terran fails to kill the toss inside that timing window, it's the other way around - Collossi and/or storm >> bio. Now the terran can't really do anything besides trying to wear down the toss by indirect engagements (hit-and-run, drops). I'm not saying that the matchup is imbalanced one way or another, i'm just saying that i'm not satisfied with the current situation that i basically have to win the game early (which is very much possible) or fight an uphill battle in the lategame. I don't like to do 1-base timing pushes or allins, but i feel like i'm forced to do these if i want to win. Give me a viable alternative and i will gladly accept it (preferably something that actually works, not some "lol go thors the pwn" bullshit).
You forget 1 thing. That timing where there are no collossae or HT's is very small + so many protoss players underestimate the power of forcefields. Watch mc crushing terrans with forcefields. So it's more like this:
- you will have a timing where terran will lose his army thanks to forcefields.
- then the collossus enter the play so your bioball will be much weaker
- then HT's + amulet enter the game and you will only win if you are much better then your opponent.
Timing window for terran? I don't see it.
I'm one of those terrans that never allins. I prefer to play a macrogame.
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On January 25 2011 20:26 Dente wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2011 19:11 Lurk wrote:On January 25 2011 10:40 Reborn8u wrote:Obviously, late game isn't an issue for me, amulet is insane and colossus at critical mass are insane as well. But early game I just get suffocated by pressure and nothing I can make except FF can deal with terrans infantry well. It's just so hard to get enough gas to have an army that can keep me alive and get colossus or HT's out. After every battle I loose units have to spend a lot of gas to replace them. Terrans have just gotten so good at baiting force fields. Many times they get 1 early ghost and emp my units. I honestly don't see why so many terrans bitch about storm. 80 damage, but most of it can be dodged and it's very expensive to tech to (which weakens my army as I'm waiting for it) But emp doesn't even have to be researched, does 100 dmg to shields and is instant and can't be dodged. It also counters HT and FF. Also, the ghosts can cloak. Now, imagine if storm worked like that and didn't have to be researched. I wish I understood better what these toss are doing that is making the terrans feel like they're op. I for the life of me cannot figure this matchup out from the protoss side. If I expo to early or tech to early I just die. This sums up the current state of the matchup pretty well. If terran goes bio he has a large timing window where bio >> gateway (basically once stim is finished and until storms/rangecolls come out). This timing window is where terran dominates and toss can't really do anything else than sit in his base and ff his ramp to stall for his tech. However, if the terran fails to kill the toss inside that timing window, it's the other way around - Collossi and/or storm >> bio. Now the terran can't really do anything besides trying to wear down the toss by indirect engagements (hit-and-run, drops). I'm not saying that the matchup is imbalanced one way or another, i'm just saying that i'm not satisfied with the current situation that i basically have to win the game early (which is very much possible) or fight an uphill battle in the lategame. I don't like to do 1-base timing pushes or allins, but i feel like i'm forced to do these if i want to win. Give me a viable alternative and i will gladly accept it (preferably something that actually works, not some "lol go thors the pwn" bullshit). You forget 1 thing. That timing where there are no collossae or HT's is very small + so many protoss players underestimate the power of forcefields. Watch mc crushing terrans with forcefields. So it's more like this: - you will have a timing where terran will lose his army thanks to forcefields. - then the collossus enter the play so your bioball will be much weaker - then HT's + amulet enter the game and you will only win if you are much better then your opponent. Timing window for terran? I don't see it. I'm one of those terrans that never allins. I prefer to play a macrogame.
I can only again emphasize that I don't understand why you don't use window 1 (from forcefields to colossi) to outexpand while dropping. Forcefields are actually 100% useless against a drop, and if I as a toss have to keep parts of my army at home, there's no way in hell I'm going to attack you with my first colossi when I can't take my whole army with me. So tell me, what prevents you from getting a third at this point?
I firmly believe that terran has to be played like toss was played in BW - you outexpand, drop, keep your opponent busy while taking the map. You don't have to be Sjow and drop main and expo at the same time while attacking to beat non-pro toss-players....constant drops at different locations while staying defensive should really prevent your opponent from attacking your third. Getting outexpanded while being on two base is definitely my biggest fear when playing PvT right now.
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Terrans dont drop enough in late game. It totally destroys Protoss, cause protoss army is usually 1 big clump, and if you drop in 3 places you can often get better position to attack and take out protoss main army. 4 Marauders drops are just imba! Tos have to either 1) make useless cannons, 2) micro HTs giving terran time to engage without getting force fielded, 3) leave more then 4 marauder worth of army in bases.
Ofcourse it all depends on many factors....
I dont think that P is IMBA in late game, because of T mobility.
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On January 25 2011 20:46 sleepingdog wrote:I can only again emphasize that I don't understand why you don't use window 1 (from forcefields to colossi) to outexpand while dropping.
You can of course outexpand the protoss during that timing window. It will give you a head start in economy for the mid-to-lategame. However, even with the income advantage you'll still try to fight high-tech (colls, temps) with low-tech bio. It will give you better chances but in my personal experience you're better off not investing into expansions during your early game timing window and instead try to kill your opponent while you still can.
On January 25 2011 20:48 DrGreen wrote:
Terrans dont drop enough in late game. It totally destroys Protoss, cause protoss army is usually 1 big clump, and if you drop in 3 places you can often get better position to attack and take out protoss main army. 4 Marauders drops are just imba! Tos have to either 1) make useless cannons, 2) micro HTs giving terran time to engage without getting force fielded, 3) leave more then 4 marauder worth of army in bases.
Ofcourse it all depends on many factors....
I dont think that P is IMBA in late game, because of T mobility.
Maybe terrans don't drop enough but at least we try. However, you forget that protoss can drop too, and they don't do it nearly often enough.
Quite often, protoss open with collossus play and later switch to HTs. As they don't use their robo anymore, they could easily get out 2-3 prisms (at the cost of 4-6 zealots) and start harassing the hell out of the terran. I know that whitera does it and quite successfully so.
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On January 25 2011 20:46 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2011 20:26 Dente wrote:On January 25 2011 19:11 Lurk wrote:On January 25 2011 10:40 Reborn8u wrote:Obviously, late game isn't an issue for me, amulet is insane and colossus at critical mass are insane as well. But early game I just get suffocated by pressure and nothing I can make except FF can deal with terrans infantry well. It's just so hard to get enough gas to have an army that can keep me alive and get colossus or HT's out. After every battle I loose units have to spend a lot of gas to replace them. Terrans have just gotten so good at baiting force fields. Many times they get 1 early ghost and emp my units. I honestly don't see why so many terrans bitch about storm. 80 damage, but most of it can be dodged and it's very expensive to tech to (which weakens my army as I'm waiting for it) But emp doesn't even have to be researched, does 100 dmg to shields and is instant and can't be dodged. It also counters HT and FF. Also, the ghosts can cloak. Now, imagine if storm worked like that and didn't have to be researched. I wish I understood better what these toss are doing that is making the terrans feel like they're op. I for the life of me cannot figure this matchup out from the protoss side. If I expo to early or tech to early I just die. This sums up the current state of the matchup pretty well. If terran goes bio he has a large timing window where bio >> gateway (basically once stim is finished and until storms/rangecolls come out). This timing window is where terran dominates and toss can't really do anything else than sit in his base and ff his ramp to stall for his tech. However, if the terran fails to kill the toss inside that timing window, it's the other way around - Collossi and/or storm >> bio. Now the terran can't really do anything besides trying to wear down the toss by indirect engagements (hit-and-run, drops). I'm not saying that the matchup is imbalanced one way or another, i'm just saying that i'm not satisfied with the current situation that i basically have to win the game early (which is very much possible) or fight an uphill battle in the lategame. I don't like to do 1-base timing pushes or allins, but i feel like i'm forced to do these if i want to win. Give me a viable alternative and i will gladly accept it (preferably something that actually works, not some "lol go thors the pwn" bullshit). You forget 1 thing. That timing where there are no collossae or HT's is very small + so many protoss players underestimate the power of forcefields. Watch mc crushing terrans with forcefields. So it's more like this: - you will have a timing where terran will lose his army thanks to forcefields. - then the collossus enter the play so your bioball will be much weaker - then HT's + amulet enter the game and you will only win if you are much better then your opponent. Timing window for terran? I don't see it. I'm one of those terrans that never allins. I prefer to play a macrogame. I can only again emphasize that I don't understand why you don't use window 1 (from forcefields to colossi) to outexpand while dropping. Forcefields are actually 100% useless against a drop, and if I as a toss have to keep parts of my army at home, there's no way in hell I'm going to attack you with my first colossi when I can't take my whole army with me. So tell me, what prevents you from getting a third at this point? I firmly believe that terran has to be played like toss was played in BW - you outexpand, drop, keep your opponent busy while taking the map. You don't have to be Sjow and drop main and expo at the same time while attacking to beat non-pro toss-players....constant drops at different locations while staying defensive should really prevent your opponent from attacking your third. Getting outexpanded while being on two base is definitely my biggest fear when playing PvT right now.
Why don't terrans outexpand a toss, while having more units than him and teching up simultaneously? Because you cannot tech and expand and mass up units at the same time, or you end up with a half-ass progress in each of the three fields (late expo, late tech and too few units to really do shit).
So which two areas do you focus on?
- Tech and units is popular and leads to the timing pushes. But they have a tendency to be foiled by aggressive 4 gate pushes or 3 gate voidray, that hit before you have your high tech units (raven/banshee/thor) ready. Also toss turtling on one base will give you trouble, because force field can deny your ground troops access (Thor rushes deny force fields, which is why they are popular).
- Units and expand is popular, but that leads to your troops not being able to breach the toss ramp due to force field. It gives your economy a head start, but you expose yourself to a colossus timing and even if you get out vikings in time, you ceed mapcontrol to the toss death ball allowing he toss to catch up in expansions and tech up to the dreaded HT+amulet.
- Tech and expand leaves you open to many early pushes. You can manage, but you have failed to capitalize on your strong infantry. This is how most build start out with mech, relying on tank turtle to get their natural. But that cedes the map to the toss and he can do whatever he want, leading to the 'mech vs late game toss' scenario with toss having extra workers due to chronoboost and possible being expansions up.
And for medivac airlift to counter forcefield:
1) Medivacs take a while, when you also have to research stim and other stuff. They cost quite some gas.
2) Dropping when the toss expects it and has only 1 base to defend is suicidal. Especially considering that toss needs only 2 sentries at his ramp and can devote the rest of his units to kill the units as they drop out of the medivac (if he doesn't get the medivac).
There is a reason that there are numerous timing pushes but none of the successful ones involves medivacs.
EDIT:
I also want to throw in:
Sufficient forcefields enable toss gateway units to beat infantry. I have learned that the hard way. If you do a two rax expand, he does a 1 or 2 gate expand and then try to pressure the toss after stim is done, he will be able to fend your push off with forcefields and tech on two bases and then you are screwed.
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On January 25 2011 20:48 DrGreen wrote:
Terrans dont drop enough in late game. It totally destroys Protoss, cause protoss army is usually 1 big clump, and if you drop in 3 places you can often get better position to attack and take out protoss main army. 4 Marauders drops are just imba! Tos have to either 1) make useless cannons, 2) micro HTs giving terran time to engage without getting force fielded, 3) leave more then 4 marauder worth of army in bases.
Ofcourse it all depends on many factors....
I dont think that P is IMBA in late game, because of T mobility.
I don't see how cannons are "useless" when they shoot at the medivac dropping...If protoss is smart and has noticed the terran likes drops he wont just have an entire max army sitting there doing nothing, he would be aggresive so terran doesnt have time to do these drops or he'll be low on units everytime a drop goes, making there a chance him to pretty much lose everything.
Also, the timing window for attacking early game really upsets me. Why should we have to kill you early just to win? On top of this, it really is true that the window is extremely small. I really would like macro games but it just doesn't work. It's not that I'm even bad at macro, when I play TvZ I'm always doing good on macro and I usually win because of that and micro, but vs toss neither apply because it doesn't even matter my unit comp in the end, it gets owned all the time.
Honestly, I just hope they do some nerf on early game terran infantry pressure and also nerf warp gates (increase time so that 4gate doesnt just beat us if we go tech) and buff late-game terran somehow or nerf late-game protoss
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On January 25 2011 21:58 emidanRKO wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2011 20:48 DrGreen wrote:
Terrans dont drop enough in late game. It totally destroys Protoss, cause protoss army is usually 1 big clump, and if you drop in 3 places you can often get better position to attack and take out protoss main army. 4 Marauders drops are just imba! Tos have to either 1) make useless cannons, 2) micro HTs giving terran time to engage without getting force fielded, 3) leave more then 4 marauder worth of army in bases.
Ofcourse it all depends on many factors....
I dont think that P is IMBA in late game, because of T mobility. I don't see how cannons are "useless" when they shoot at the medivac dropping...If protoss is smart and has noticed the terran likes drops he wont just have an entire max army sitting there doing nothing, he would be aggresive so terran doesnt have time to do these drops or he'll be low on units everytime a drop goes, making there a chance him to pretty much lose everything. Also, the timing window for attacking early game really upsets me. Why should we have to kill you early just to win? On top of this, it really is true that the window is extremely small. I really would like macro games but it just doesn't work. It's not that I'm even bad at macro, when I play TvZ I'm always doing good on macro and I usually win because of that and micro, but vs toss neither apply because it doesn't even matter my unit comp in the end, it gets owned all the time. Honestly, I just hope they do some nerf on early game terran infantry pressure and also nerf warp gates (increase time so that 4gate doesnt just beat us if we go tech) and buff late-game terran somehow or nerf late-game protoss
This is so true. Forcefields really close your first timing window. By the time you have medivacs, toss has collossae. By the time you can battle these collossae, lategame enters. GG.
Protoss players who suggest to drop always forget a few things:
1) while you are dropping and losing parts of your army, the toss is building up an unbeatable 200/200 force.
2) dropping when phoenixes are into play is a straight loss.
3) 1 DT at each expo and dropping will need a scan every time.
4) HT's feedback your medivacs.
5) The drops have to be perfect and if you give the toss 1 min to recover, you die. 1 mistake and you lose.
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Medivac dropping against FFs early game is pointless.
Why? Because FFing the ramp means the entire P army is in the main.
Dropping right into the main when the whole army is there is rather pointless.
Medivacs also require a Starport, which takes time to get.
I think I might try and incorporate just one Ghost into my infantry to EMP the sentries and see if I can force my way up the ramp.
Mech just dies to Chargelots as they can easily absorb tank damage, hellions can't kill anything else and Thors get surrounded.
Air might be viable but trying to get mass air up is probably even more difficult than getting mech up and running.
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On January 25 2011 21:37 Thrombozyt wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2011 20:46 sleepingdog wrote:On January 25 2011 20:26 Dente wrote:On January 25 2011 19:11 Lurk wrote:On January 25 2011 10:40 Reborn8u wrote:Obviously, late game isn't an issue for me, amulet is insane and colossus at critical mass are insane as well. But early game I just get suffocated by pressure and nothing I can make except FF can deal with terrans infantry well. It's just so hard to get enough gas to have an army that can keep me alive and get colossus or HT's out. After every battle I loose units have to spend a lot of gas to replace them. Terrans have just gotten so good at baiting force fields. Many times they get 1 early ghost and emp my units. I honestly don't see why so many terrans bitch about storm. 80 damage, but most of it can be dodged and it's very expensive to tech to (which weakens my army as I'm waiting for it) But emp doesn't even have to be researched, does 100 dmg to shields and is instant and can't be dodged. It also counters HT and FF. Also, the ghosts can cloak. Now, imagine if storm worked like that and didn't have to be researched. I wish I understood better what these toss are doing that is making the terrans feel like they're op. I for the life of me cannot figure this matchup out from the protoss side. If I expo to early or tech to early I just die. This sums up the current state of the matchup pretty well. If terran goes bio he has a large timing window where bio >> gateway (basically once stim is finished and until storms/rangecolls come out). This timing window is where terran dominates and toss can't really do anything else than sit in his base and ff his ramp to stall for his tech. However, if the terran fails to kill the toss inside that timing window, it's the other way around - Collossi and/or storm >> bio. Now the terran can't really do anything besides trying to wear down the toss by indirect engagements (hit-and-run, drops). I'm not saying that the matchup is imbalanced one way or another, i'm just saying that i'm not satisfied with the current situation that i basically have to win the game early (which is very much possible) or fight an uphill battle in the lategame. I don't like to do 1-base timing pushes or allins, but i feel like i'm forced to do these if i want to win. Give me a viable alternative and i will gladly accept it (preferably something that actually works, not some "lol go thors the pwn" bullshit). You forget 1 thing. That timing where there are no collossae or HT's is very small + so many protoss players underestimate the power of forcefields. Watch mc crushing terrans with forcefields. So it's more like this: - you will have a timing where terran will lose his army thanks to forcefields. - then the collossus enter the play so your bioball will be much weaker - then HT's + amulet enter the game and you will only win if you are much better then your opponent. Timing window for terran? I don't see it. I'm one of those terrans that never allins. I prefer to play a macrogame. I can only again emphasize that I don't understand why you don't use window 1 (from forcefields to colossi) to outexpand while dropping. Forcefields are actually 100% useless against a drop, and if I as a toss have to keep parts of my army at home, there's no way in hell I'm going to attack you with my first colossi when I can't take my whole army with me. So tell me, what prevents you from getting a third at this point? I firmly believe that terran has to be played like toss was played in BW - you outexpand, drop, keep your opponent busy while taking the map. You don't have to be Sjow and drop main and expo at the same time while attacking to beat non-pro toss-players....constant drops at different locations while staying defensive should really prevent your opponent from attacking your third. Getting outexpanded while being on two base is definitely my biggest fear when playing PvT right now. Why don't terrans outexpand a toss, while having more units than him and teching up simultaneously? Because you cannot tech and expand and mass up units at the same time, or you end up with a half-ass progress in each of the three fields (late expo, late tech and too few units to really do shit). - Units and expand is popular, but that leads to your troops not being able to breach the toss ramp due to force field. It gives your economy a head start, but you expose yourself to a colossus timing and even if you get out vikings in time, you ceed mapcontrol to the toss death ball allowing he toss to catch up in expansions and tech up to the dreaded HT+amulet.
This is exactly what I'm talking about. Approximately 80% of my terran-opponents try to engage against my forcefields out of a reason unknown to me. Yes your units are stronger, but WHY, why the hell do you feel the desperate urge to just go and kill me? You don't actually have to suicide half of your army each and every game, you can just stay defensive (which requires a helluva less stuff with bunkers) and out-macro the toss. Also I mentioned drops to keep toss in his base. What's he gonna do, kill you with the oh so powerful 2 colossus timing attack that we've seen....umm.....never in the last couple of months?
90% of the PvT games I see where terran loses, the T either throws parts of his army away early which means he has to reproduce and can't tech, or the T just masses units on 2 base and doesn't take advantage of his high mobility at all. On the other hand, I rarely see a toss win against a drop-terran who uses drops to outexpand a toss or just kill him with the multi-pronged attacks (see sjow vs white-ra).
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On January 25 2011 22:46 sleepingdog wrote:
On the other hand, I rarely see a toss win against a drop-terran who uses drops to outexpand a toss or just kill him with the multi-pronged attacks (see sjow vs white-ra).
Indeed. I have a woeful record against Terran of late - literally something like 20% or less. And one of those wins against Terran was when the guy admitted to me at the start that he was totally baked. The other one (yes, I've only won twice against Terran in recent memory) was when he missed a scan on my DTs (which I started employing out of desperation).
So, in search of help, I also watched the Sjow - White-Ra series. And it was depressing. Constant drop harrass just wore White-Ra down. And *each of the drops was cost-effective*. i.e. after each drop, Protoss had lost more resources worth of stuff than Sjow did, even if the drop was killed off. And I wasn't really sure what White-Ra was doing wrong. It just looked totally futile.
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On January 25 2011 21:37 Thrombozyt wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2011 20:46 sleepingdog wrote:On January 25 2011 20:26 Dente wrote:On January 25 2011 19:11 Lurk wrote:On January 25 2011 10:40 Reborn8u wrote:Obviously, late game isn't an issue for me, amulet is insane and colossus at critical mass are insane as well. But early game I just get suffocated by pressure and nothing I can make except FF can deal with terrans infantry well. It's just so hard to get enough gas to have an army that can keep me alive and get colossus or HT's out. After every battle I loose units have to spend a lot of gas to replace them. Terrans have just gotten so good at baiting force fields. Many times they get 1 early ghost and emp my units. I honestly don't see why so many terrans bitch about storm. 80 damage, but most of it can be dodged and it's very expensive to tech to (which weakens my army as I'm waiting for it) But emp doesn't even have to be researched, does 100 dmg to shields and is instant and can't be dodged. It also counters HT and FF. Also, the ghosts can cloak. Now, imagine if storm worked like that and didn't have to be researched. I wish I understood better what these toss are doing that is making the terrans feel like they're op. I for the life of me cannot figure this matchup out from the protoss side. If I expo to early or tech to early I just die. This sums up the current state of the matchup pretty well. If terran goes bio he has a large timing window where bio >> gateway (basically once stim is finished and until storms/rangecolls come out). This timing window is where terran dominates and toss can't really do anything else than sit in his base and ff his ramp to stall for his tech. However, if the terran fails to kill the toss inside that timing window, it's the other way around - Collossi and/or storm >> bio. Now the terran can't really do anything besides trying to wear down the toss by indirect engagements (hit-and-run, drops). I'm not saying that the matchup is imbalanced one way or another, i'm just saying that i'm not satisfied with the current situation that i basically have to win the game early (which is very much possible) or fight an uphill battle in the lategame. I don't like to do 1-base timing pushes or allins, but i feel like i'm forced to do these if i want to win. Give me a viable alternative and i will gladly accept it (preferably something that actually works, not some "lol go thors the pwn" bullshit). You forget 1 thing. That timing where there are no collossae or HT's is very small + so many protoss players underestimate the power of forcefields. Watch mc crushing terrans with forcefields. So it's more like this: - you will have a timing where terran will lose his army thanks to forcefields. - then the collossus enter the play so your bioball will be much weaker - then HT's + amulet enter the game and you will only win if you are much better then your opponent. Timing window for terran? I don't see it. I'm one of those terrans that never allins. I prefer to play a macrogame. I can only again emphasize that I don't understand why you don't use window 1 (from forcefields to colossi) to outexpand while dropping. Forcefields are actually 100% useless against a drop, and if I as a toss have to keep parts of my army at home, there's no way in hell I'm going to attack you with my first colossi when I can't take my whole army with me. So tell me, what prevents you from getting a third at this point? I firmly believe that terran has to be played like toss was played in BW - you outexpand, drop, keep your opponent busy while taking the map. You don't have to be Sjow and drop main and expo at the same time while attacking to beat non-pro toss-players....constant drops at different locations while staying defensive should really prevent your opponent from attacking your third. Getting outexpanded while being on two base is definitely my biggest fear when playing PvT right now. Why don't terrans outexpand a toss, while having more units than him and teching up simultaneously? Because you cannot tech and expand and mass up units at the same time, or you end up with a half-ass progress in each of the three fields (late expo, late tech and too few units to really do shit). So which two areas do you focus on? - Tech and units is popular and leads to the timing pushes. But they have a tendency to be foiled by aggressive 4 gate pushes or 3 gate voidray, that hit before you have your high tech units (raven/banshee/thor) ready. Also toss turtling on one base will give you trouble, because force field can deny your ground troops access (Thor rushes deny force fields, which is why they are popular). - Units and expand is popular, but that leads to your troops not being able to breach the toss ramp due to force field. It gives your economy a head start, but you expose yourself to a colossus timing and even if you get out vikings in time, you ceed mapcontrol to the toss death ball allowing he toss to catch up in expansions and tech up to the dreaded HT+amulet. - Tech and expand leaves you open to many early pushes. You can manage, but you have failed to capitalize on your strong infantry. This is how most build start out with mech, relying on tank turtle to get their natural. But that cedes the map to the toss and he can do whatever he want, leading to the 'mech vs late game toss' scenario with toss having extra workers due to chronoboost and possible being expansions up. And for medivac airlift to counter forcefield: 1) Medivacs take a while, when you also have to research stim and other stuff. They cost quite some gas. 2) Dropping when the toss expects it and has only 1 base to defend is suicidal. Especially considering that toss needs only 2 sentries at his ramp and can devote the rest of his units to kill the units as they drop out of the medivac (if he doesn't get the medivac). There is a reason that there are numerous timing pushes but none of the successful ones involves medivacs. EDIT: I also want to throw in: Sufficient forcefields enable toss gateway units to beat infantry. I have learned that the hard way. If you do a two rax expand, he does a 1 or 2 gate expand and then try to pressure the toss after stim is done, he will be able to fend your push off with forcefields and tech on two bases and then you are screwed.
/thread
This post pretty much sums everything up.
I agree that early game T has a unit advantage in a straight up fight, but good forcefield play mostly negates that (force fields are harder than stim and A move, but we're not talking about platinum here).
I think in the end the problem is Terran T3 units. As a protoss there are multiple death balls you can make, using various unit comps that can scare the crap out of a terran (any combination of collossus/carrier/high temps, especially with charge), whereas a terran can get bio and more bio. Battlecruisers were simply nerfed into uselessness. Thors are pretty good against ground armies but their damage against armored air is just laughable.
I think until something is done with BCs or Thor armored air attack, TvP will be a race against the clock.
For the record, I have something like 80% winrate against protoss, mainly because my style involves mass T1 unit aggression and expansion and my macro is much better than the people at my level (around 2.5k dimaond), so this isn't whining. I'd just like the option to play a different style in the matchup instead of going balls to the wall every game and trying to hurt him early. It just limits possibilities.
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On January 25 2011 20:48 DrGreen wrote:
Terrans dont drop enough in late game. It totally destroys Protoss, cause protoss army is usually 1 big clump, and if you drop in 3 places you can often get better position to attack and take out protoss main army. 4 Marauders drops are just imba! Tos have to either 1) make useless cannons, 2) micro HTs giving terran time to engage without getting force fielded, 3) leave more then 4 marauder worth of army in bases.
Ofcourse it all depends on many factors....
I dont think that P is IMBA in late game, because of T mobility.
But then again if the Terran player does 3 drops you can just commence to going in and raping his whole fucking base. Seen the Homestory Cup game with TLO against WhiteRa? That's exactly what happened.
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On January 25 2011 23:13 thesmoosh wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2011 21:37 Thrombozyt wrote:On January 25 2011 20:46 sleepingdog wrote:On January 25 2011 20:26 Dente wrote:On January 25 2011 19:11 Lurk wrote:On January 25 2011 10:40 Reborn8u wrote:Obviously, late game isn't an issue for me, amulet is insane and colossus at critical mass are insane as well. But early game I just get suffocated by pressure and nothing I can make except FF can deal with terrans infantry well. It's just so hard to get enough gas to have an army that can keep me alive and get colossus or HT's out. After every battle I loose units have to spend a lot of gas to replace them. Terrans have just gotten so good at baiting force fields. Many times they get 1 early ghost and emp my units. I honestly don't see why so many terrans bitch about storm. 80 damage, but most of it can be dodged and it's very expensive to tech to (which weakens my army as I'm waiting for it) But emp doesn't even have to be researched, does 100 dmg to shields and is instant and can't be dodged. It also counters HT and FF. Also, the ghosts can cloak. Now, imagine if storm worked like that and didn't have to be researched. I wish I understood better what these toss are doing that is making the terrans feel like they're op. I for the life of me cannot figure this matchup out from the protoss side. If I expo to early or tech to early I just die. This sums up the current state of the matchup pretty well. If terran goes bio he has a large timing window where bio >> gateway (basically once stim is finished and until storms/rangecolls come out). This timing window is where terran dominates and toss can't really do anything else than sit in his base and ff his ramp to stall for his tech. However, if the terran fails to kill the toss inside that timing window, it's the other way around - Collossi and/or storm >> bio. Now the terran can't really do anything besides trying to wear down the toss by indirect engagements (hit-and-run, drops). I'm not saying that the matchup is imbalanced one way or another, i'm just saying that i'm not satisfied with the current situation that i basically have to win the game early (which is very much possible) or fight an uphill battle in the lategame. I don't like to do 1-base timing pushes or allins, but i feel like i'm forced to do these if i want to win. Give me a viable alternative and i will gladly accept it (preferably something that actually works, not some "lol go thors the pwn" bullshit). You forget 1 thing. That timing where there are no collossae or HT's is very small + so many protoss players underestimate the power of forcefields. Watch mc crushing terrans with forcefields. So it's more like this: - you will have a timing where terran will lose his army thanks to forcefields. - then the collossus enter the play so your bioball will be much weaker - then HT's + amulet enter the game and you will only win if you are much better then your opponent. Timing window for terran? I don't see it. I'm one of those terrans that never allins. I prefer to play a macrogame. I can only again emphasize that I don't understand why you don't use window 1 (from forcefields to colossi) to outexpand while dropping. Forcefields are actually 100% useless against a drop, and if I as a toss have to keep parts of my army at home, there's no way in hell I'm going to attack you with my first colossi when I can't take my whole army with me. So tell me, what prevents you from getting a third at this point? I firmly believe that terran has to be played like toss was played in BW - you outexpand, drop, keep your opponent busy while taking the map. You don't have to be Sjow and drop main and expo at the same time while attacking to beat non-pro toss-players....constant drops at different locations while staying defensive should really prevent your opponent from attacking your third. Getting outexpanded while being on two base is definitely my biggest fear when playing PvT right now. Why don't terrans outexpand a toss, while having more units than him and teching up simultaneously? Because you cannot tech and expand and mass up units at the same time, or you end up with a half-ass progress in each of the three fields (late expo, late tech and too few units to really do shit). So which two areas do you focus on? - Tech and units is popular and leads to the timing pushes. But they have a tendency to be foiled by aggressive 4 gate pushes or 3 gate voidray, that hit before you have your high tech units (raven/banshee/thor) ready. Also toss turtling on one base will give you trouble, because force field can deny your ground troops access (Thor rushes deny force fields, which is why they are popular). - Units and expand is popular, but that leads to your troops not being able to breach the toss ramp due to force field. It gives your economy a head start, but you expose yourself to a colossus timing and even if you get out vikings in time, you ceed mapcontrol to the toss death ball allowing he toss to catch up in expansions and tech up to the dreaded HT+amulet. - Tech and expand leaves you open to many early pushes. You can manage, but you have failed to capitalize on your strong infantry. This is how most build start out with mech, relying on tank turtle to get their natural. But that cedes the map to the toss and he can do whatever he want, leading to the 'mech vs late game toss' scenario with toss having extra workers due to chronoboost and possible being expansions up. And for medivac airlift to counter forcefield: 1) Medivacs take a while, when you also have to research stim and other stuff. They cost quite some gas. 2) Dropping when the toss expects it and has only 1 base to defend is suicidal. Especially considering that toss needs only 2 sentries at his ramp and can devote the rest of his units to kill the units as they drop out of the medivac (if he doesn't get the medivac). There is a reason that there are numerous timing pushes but none of the successful ones involves medivacs. EDIT: I also want to throw in: Sufficient forcefields enable toss gateway units to beat infantry. I have learned that the hard way. If you do a two rax expand, he does a 1 or 2 gate expand and then try to pressure the toss after stim is done, he will be able to fend your push off with forcefields and tech on two bases and then you are screwed. /thread This post pretty much sums everything up. I agree that early game T has a unit advantage in a straight up fight, but good forcefield play mostly negates that (force fields are harder than stim and A move, but we're not talking about platinum here). I think in the end the problem is Terran T3 units. As a protoss there are multiple death balls you can make, using various unit comps that can scare the crap out of a terran (any combination of collossus/carrier/high temps, especially with charge), whereas a terran can get bio and more bio. Battlecruisers were simply nerfed into uselessness. Thors are pretty good against ground armies but their damage against armored air is just laughable. I think until something is done with BCs or Thor armored air attack, TvP will be a race against the clock. For the record, I have something like 80% winrate against protoss, mainly because my style involves mass T1 unit aggression and expansion and my macro is much better than the people at my level (around 2.5k dimaond), so this isn't whining. I'd just like the option to play a different style in the matchup instead of going balls to the wall every game and trying to hurt him early. It just limits possibilities.
Forcefield can't be mostly negating anything if you still have a winrate that high using that style.
I personally think Terran's QQing about late game aren't as good at macro (which is fair, you don't get to practice it as often since both TvP and TvZ can be won with strong early pushes) and fail to use ghosts.
T1 Terran units scale much better than gateway units, they just melt easily to splash, but getting free shots on colossus with vikings, using drops, ghosts etc... I find Terran late game to be stronger than Protoss's if used properly.
Ghosts are underused and underrated. They have a spell that halfs the HP of most protoss units instantly AND prevents the use of both forcefields and psi storm.
At the pro level there has already started to be a shift towards Terran in TvP and I think as time goes on it'll shift further across the board (maybe not below platinum level, since 4 gate etc will never change).
But, maybe Protoss will respond to a shift with new builds and it'll change further. Who knows. As is, right at this very moment, Terran is pretty darn strong in both TvZ and TvP matchups, both early and late game.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On January 25 2011 23:29 mads wrote:
As is, right at this very moment, Terran is pretty darn strong in both TvZ and TvP matchups, both early and late game.
Sounds like Terran needs a buff for TvT then?
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On January 25 2011 23:34 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2011 23:29 mads wrote:
As is, right at this very moment, Terran is pretty darn strong in both TvZ and TvP matchups, both early and late game. Sounds like Terran needs a buff for TvT then?
nerf tanks and vikings to balance TvT, obviously.
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On January 25 2011 22:46 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2011 21:37 Thrombozyt wrote:On January 25 2011 20:46 sleepingdog wrote:On January 25 2011 20:26 Dente wrote:On January 25 2011 19:11 Lurk wrote:On January 25 2011 10:40 Reborn8u wrote:Obviously, late game isn't an issue for me, amulet is insane and colossus at critical mass are insane as well. But early game I just get suffocated by pressure and nothing I can make except FF can deal with terrans infantry well. It's just so hard to get enough gas to have an army that can keep me alive and get colossus or HT's out. After every battle I loose units have to spend a lot of gas to replace them. Terrans have just gotten so good at baiting force fields. Many times they get 1 early ghost and emp my units. I honestly don't see why so many terrans bitch about storm. 80 damage, but most of it can be dodged and it's very expensive to tech to (which weakens my army as I'm waiting for it) But emp doesn't even have to be researched, does 100 dmg to shields and is instant and can't be dodged. It also counters HT and FF. Also, the ghosts can cloak. Now, imagine if storm worked like that and didn't have to be researched. I wish I understood better what these toss are doing that is making the terrans feel like they're op. I for the life of me cannot figure this matchup out from the protoss side. If I expo to early or tech to early I just die. This sums up the current state of the matchup pretty well. If terran goes bio he has a large timing window where bio >> gateway (basically once stim is finished and until storms/rangecolls come out). This timing window is where terran dominates and toss can't really do anything else than sit in his base and ff his ramp to stall for his tech. However, if the terran fails to kill the toss inside that timing window, it's the other way around - Collossi and/or storm >> bio. Now the terran can't really do anything besides trying to wear down the toss by indirect engagements (hit-and-run, drops). I'm not saying that the matchup is imbalanced one way or another, i'm just saying that i'm not satisfied with the current situation that i basically have to win the game early (which is very much possible) or fight an uphill battle in the lategame. I don't like to do 1-base timing pushes or allins, but i feel like i'm forced to do these if i want to win. Give me a viable alternative and i will gladly accept it (preferably something that actually works, not some "lol go thors the pwn" bullshit). You forget 1 thing. That timing where there are no collossae or HT's is very small + so many protoss players underestimate the power of forcefields. Watch mc crushing terrans with forcefields. So it's more like this: - you will have a timing where terran will lose his army thanks to forcefields. - then the collossus enter the play so your bioball will be much weaker - then HT's + amulet enter the game and you will only win if you are much better then your opponent. Timing window for terran? I don't see it. I'm one of those terrans that never allins. I prefer to play a macrogame. I can only again emphasize that I don't understand why you don't use window 1 (from forcefields to colossi) to outexpand while dropping. Forcefields are actually 100% useless against a drop, and if I as a toss have to keep parts of my army at home, there's no way in hell I'm going to attack you with my first colossi when I can't take my whole army with me. So tell me, what prevents you from getting a third at this point? I firmly believe that terran has to be played like toss was played in BW - you outexpand, drop, keep your opponent busy while taking the map. You don't have to be Sjow and drop main and expo at the same time while attacking to beat non-pro toss-players....constant drops at different locations while staying defensive should really prevent your opponent from attacking your third. Getting outexpanded while being on two base is definitely my biggest fear when playing PvT right now. Why don't terrans outexpand a toss, while having more units than him and teching up simultaneously? Because you cannot tech and expand and mass up units at the same time, or you end up with a half-ass progress in each of the three fields (late expo, late tech and too few units to really do shit). - Units and expand is popular, but that leads to your troops not being able to breach the toss ramp due to force field. It gives your economy a head start, but you expose yourself to a colossus timing and even if you get out vikings in time, you ceed mapcontrol to the toss death ball allowing he toss to catch up in expansions and tech up to the dreaded HT+amulet. This is exactly what I'm talking about. Approximately 80% of my terran-opponents try to engage against my forcefields out of a reason unknown to me. Yes your units are stronger, but WHY, why the hell do you feel the desperate urge to just go and kill me? You don't actually have to suicide half of your army each and every game, you can just stay defensive (which requires a helluva less stuff with bunkers) and out-macro the toss. Also I mentioned drops to keep toss in his base. What's he gonna do, kill you with the oh so powerful 2 colossus timing attack that we've seen....umm.....never in the last couple of months? 90% of the PvT games I see where terran loses, the T either throws parts of his army away early which means he has to reproduce and can't tech, or the T just masses units on 2 base and doesn't take advantage of his high mobility at all. On the other hand, I rarely see a toss win against a drop-terran who uses drops to outexpand a toss or just kill him with the multi-pronged attacks (see sjow vs white-ra).
You are failing to comprehend that T's try to finish the game early because once it gets to late game, it is so incredibly lopsided in the P's favor with both HT's and Colossi. Not only that, if the Terran just tries to expand, he isn't keeping the Protoss from expanding or teching at all, giving a P that knows that the T has let up free reign to get to those T3 game-winners.
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EPT
