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On January 25 2011 03:07 giuocob wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2011 03:01 Bagi wrote:
No I havent seen Jinro's games, I only mentioned them to be an expection because I'm a psychic.
Gold-level protoss can call tanks and thors stronger options until the cows come home, but the truth is that until the matchup has a paradigm shift towards people using them, they simply arent. No amount of half-assed theorycrafting will change that. Jinro did great, I'll give you that. Now lets see if other people start doing the same, and succeed with it. I kinda doubt it.
I think its amusing to that you guys are indirectly telling people like MKP and MVP to learn to think about positioning and how to engage the protoss army with new unit compositions. They actually know the terran race inside out, they know what its capable of, and they go MMM. Just stop. People like MKP and MVP generally go for massive 1 or 2 base all in plays instead of looking toward the late game for the win. Terran is extremely powerful in these shorter types of games, which is why most high level terrans go for such strategies. The people in this thread, however, are asking about how to play the late game against protoss, which is a different strategy entirely. These same people would probably have more success with straight 2 base play, but if they want to play for the later game, then these new unit composition certainly have a place.
I agree that the bio domination of early game is strong and should by all mean be utilized. Thats why I was curious to see replays of a terran player succesfully switching towards a mech-oriented play above, as it would be a more realistic scenario. A terran utilizing his strong early army and then switching towards a tier 3 army as the toss gets his, but the problem is, this never happens. I think its too simply too costly and the payoff is too small, as you could be just sticking to bio... But then eventually you'll run into the HT/colossi wall.
I think its a little weird that the terran has to decide from the very start to go mech just to have the possibility to make it in a macro game. There simply is no smooth transition. It doesnt help that mech hasnt really proven itself to be effective either.
Btw, the Jinro games were mostly 2 base as well.
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On January 25 2011 03:18 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2011 03:07 giuocob wrote:On January 25 2011 03:01 Bagi wrote:
No I havent seen Jinro's games, I only mentioned them to be an expection because I'm a psychic.
Gold-level protoss can call tanks and thors stronger options until the cows come home, but the truth is that until the matchup has a paradigm shift towards people using them, they simply arent. No amount of half-assed theorycrafting will change that. Jinro did great, I'll give you that. Now lets see if other people start doing the same, and succeed with it. I kinda doubt it.
I think its amusing to that you guys are indirectly telling people like MKP and MVP to learn to think about positioning and how to engage the protoss army with new unit compositions. They actually know the terran race inside out, they know what its capable of, and they go MMM. Just stop. People like MKP and MVP generally go for massive 1 or 2 base all in plays instead of looking toward the late game for the win. Terran is extremely powerful in these shorter types of games, which is why most high level terrans go for such strategies. The people in this thread, however, are asking about how to play the late game against protoss, which is a different strategy entirely. These same people would probably have more success with straight 2 base play, but if they want to play for the later game, then these new unit composition certainly have a place. I agree that the bio domination of early game is strong and should by all mean be utilized. Thats why I was curious to see replays of a terran player succesfully switching towards a mech-oriented play above, as it would be a more realistic scenario. A terran utilizing his strong early army and then switching towards a tier 3 army as the toss gets his, but the problem is, this never happens. I think its too simply too costly and the payoff is too small, as you could be just sticking to bio... But then eventually you'll run into the HT/colossi wall. I think its a little weird that the terran has to decide from the very start to go mech just to have the possibility to make it in a macro game. There simply is no smooth transition. It doesnt help that mech hasnt really proven itself to be effective either. Btw, the Jinro games were mostly 2 base as well.
Sorry, so you'd like to dominate early game, AND late game with a single build? Sure thing. If you're worried about hitting HT/Collosi, then I guess you're just going to have to man up and make a switch aren't you. All P's would love to go straight for HT tech but it just doesn't work that way. I however do think that ghost/bio is extremely strong as emp is just intensely powerful once you hit like 4-6 ghosts. It's like an instant 1000 damage and draining of all energy. It's really what smashes me in most PvT's.
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How about a build that stays viable all game?
I'd love to switch, but the problem is that its not viable. Bio is too much of an investment to be effective in the early game. You need separate upgrades, production facitilies, everything.
Ghosts are fun but hardly compete with HT's that build in 5 seconds anywhere on the map. They actually deal real damage too.
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Mech works swimmingly in a few specific situations, as Jinro showed against MC. It's fantastic when you can abuse tanks in such a way to prevent counters, so close positions on maps or on very small maps. You have to open mech to make it work (atleast as far as we've seen). I've done a ton of mech play since that Jinro game, and beyond those situations I mentioned bio, even late game, is much better even if it dies in droves to storms.
The people in this thread are looking for a way to transition into some of those vaunted tier 3 Terran units you are saying T's should use. If you open bio (which you seem to think they should) then its very difficult to transition to something other then bio. It's not just some trivial thing, 'Just start building bigger units!'.
TheDemigod, you can complain about ghosts all you want but it doesn't change the general consensus that Khaydarin Amulet > bio play. It is definatly an uphill battle, and you agree with that sentiment earlier when you call Terran's stupid for thinking bio and Ghosts should beat HT. But if you're going to grant that HT defeats bio, please don't complain that Ghosts are the most amazing thing ever later. And I'm sorry that you think tanks destroy zealots. Not sure where you got that impression.
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On January 25 2011 01:24 gejfsyd wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2011 01:16 statikg wrote:
how is this waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah post still around, ps HT are OP They are worse then they were in sc1...
Yeah, but no one went bio in BW either. Mech was actually good then.
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mech is most useful in the late game as a backbone rather than the entirety of your army. a thor or 2 bolstors the livelihood of your bio immensely. most of the time a gaggle of zealots will wrap around the thor as your bio melts them.. even mixing in blue hellions does ridiculous amounts of damage to late game protoss armies which are usually chargelot heavy . blue helions can also snipe ht in the back of a protoss ball and harass probe lines all game tanks are nice to have on certain maps ie jungle basin to cut the map in half and metal to deny gold expos all game. it's true that early on phoenixes can deal with tanks relatively well but as tank numbers go up there is no longer a way to deal with them in a cost effective manner. what, is the protoss going to make 15 phoenixes to lift every tank?? immortals are the natural answer, but they have 5 range and more often than not get stuck in the middle/back of the protoss army. not to mention 1 emp renders them absolutely useless against tanks besides the damage they will probably not end up doing.
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On January 25 2011 03:56 Alejandrisha wrote:
mech is most useful in the late game as a backbone rather than the entirety of your army. a thor or 2 bolstors the livelihood of your bio immensely. most of the time a gaggle of zealots will wrap around the thor as your bio melts them.. even mixing in blue hellions does ridiculous amounts of damage to late game protoss armies which are usually chargelot heavy . blue helions can also snipe ht in the back of a protoss ball and harass probe lines all game tanks are nice to have on certain maps ie jungle basin to cut the map in half and metal to deny gold expos all game. it's true that early on phoenixes can deal with tanks relatively well but as tank numbers go up there is no longer a way to deal with them in a cost effective manner. what, is the protoss going to make 15 phoenixes to lift every tank?? immortals are the natural answer, but they have 5 range and more often than not get stuck in the middle/back of the protoss army. not to mention 1 emp renders them absolutely useless against tanks besides the damage they will probably not end up doing.
only a toss would say something like this
a lot of it is true but not in the extent you seem te belive
like the thor, you say the cargelots take out the thor but die to the bio, but the thors is very gass expensive and the chargelots do their part which is tanking damage so that the true dmg dealers can do their job....
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and here i thought the purpose of this thread was to have a discussion. if you want i can post you replays when i get home. but for now don't sit there and say everything that i've experienced in the matchup is invalid because of my race. how about you post replays where mech transitions performed by non-retarded terrans absolutely failed and if you can post as many of those as i can of good terrans pulling it off successfully we can agree to disagree
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i apologize if i come off sounding like an ass hole in these posts. i am not telling terrans how to play. i am just saying that if terran stays on bio in the late game, i feel i have a very high chance to win the game BUT i have seen that when terrans make late game ADDITIONS not exactly transitions but add say, ghosts and tanks, or thor + ghosts + hellions to their mmm, the game becomes significantly more difficult for me. it is true that in small numbers, bio is the way to go. but in management games you will want bio to bounce around and to be mobile with, but in large engagements you don't want to only have 5 and 6 range units with low hp against units with aoe damage and very high dps.
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On January 25 2011 04:23 cilinder007 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2011 03:56 Alejandrisha wrote:
mech is most useful in the late game as a backbone rather than the entirety of your army. a thor or 2 bolstors the livelihood of your bio immensely. most of the time a gaggle of zealots will wrap around the thor as your bio melts them.. even mixing in blue hellions does ridiculous amounts of damage to late game protoss armies which are usually chargelot heavy . blue helions can also snipe ht in the back of a protoss ball and harass probe lines all game tanks are nice to have on certain maps ie jungle basin to cut the map in half and metal to deny gold expos all game. it's true that early on phoenixes can deal with tanks relatively well but as tank numbers go up there is no longer a way to deal with them in a cost effective manner. what, is the protoss going to make 15 phoenixes to lift every tank?? immortals are the natural answer, but they have 5 range and more often than not get stuck in the middle/back of the protoss army. not to mention 1 emp renders them absolutely useless against tanks besides the damage they will probably not end up doing. only a toss would say something like this a lot of it is true but not in the extent you seem te belive like the thor, you say the cargelots take out the thor but die to the bio, but the thors is very gass expensive and the chargelots do their part which is tanking damage so that the true dmg dealers can do their job....
Zealots do more damage than stalkers O.o
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On January 25 2011 05:01 Wrongspeedy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2011 04:23 cilinder007 wrote:On January 25 2011 03:56 Alejandrisha wrote:
mech is most useful in the late game as a backbone rather than the entirety of your army. a thor or 2 bolstors the livelihood of your bio immensely. most of the time a gaggle of zealots will wrap around the thor as your bio melts them.. even mixing in blue hellions does ridiculous amounts of damage to late game protoss armies which are usually chargelot heavy . blue helions can also snipe ht in the back of a protoss ball and harass probe lines all game tanks are nice to have on certain maps ie jungle basin to cut the map in half and metal to deny gold expos all game. it's true that early on phoenixes can deal with tanks relatively well but as tank numbers go up there is no longer a way to deal with them in a cost effective manner. what, is the protoss going to make 15 phoenixes to lift every tank?? immortals are the natural answer, but they have 5 range and more often than not get stuck in the middle/back of the protoss army. not to mention 1 emp renders them absolutely useless against tanks besides the damage they will probably not end up doing. only a toss would say something like this a lot of it is true but not in the extent you seem te belive like the thor, you say the cargelots take out the thor but die to the bio, but the thors is very gass expensive and the chargelots do their part which is tanking damage so that the true dmg dealers can do their job.... Zealots do more damage than stalkers O.o
not in an actual battle, they die too fast to do any real dmg they act as tanks against the high dps terran bio balls
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On January 25 2011 04:58 Alejandrisha wrote:
i apologize if i come off sounding like an ass hole in these posts. i am not telling terrans how to play. i am just saying that if terran stays on bio in the late game, i feel i have a very high chance to win the game BUT i have seen that when terrans make late game ADDITIONS not exactly transitions but add say, ghosts and tanks, or thor + ghosts + hellions to their mmm, the game becomes significantly more difficult for me. it is true that in small numbers, bio is the way to go. but in management games you will want bio to bounce around and to be mobile with, but in large engagements you don't want to only have 5 and 6 range units with low hp against units with aoe damage and very high dps.
the problem is the production facilities you usualy have like 10 rax and 1-2 reactor starports with bio so making mech units takes a long time to build the factories and even longer to get a good ammount off
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Honestly I usually just start making BCs late game if I was bio the entire time because I don't know what else to get that is worth it.
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whell if you can get to 20 tanks you will demolish any protoss ground force, but ofcorse carriers will rape you
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I like how terran can QQ even when they have more then enough *imba* mechanics etc etc, I mean you have mules scans flying buildings food that can lower etc etc, then i hear that the counter to mech is immortal/zealot ... i mean lol as if you cant mix in 2-3 ghosts into your mech play wich totally negate the effect of immortals cause they have 0 shield etc etc, also go check gsl if you want to see how 'bad' terran is doing against protoss, I mean there are games where P has and collosi and HT and still gets owned by bio ballss.... ye indeed damn imba toss and his imba storm! I would not be suprised if the next nerf hammer is going to rain down on terran expecially the bio play. And yes I do think Mech play is viable against toss you just have to get more then 2 units. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think there is no actual reason to complain about imbalance in PvT atm, you just have to adept your play maybe yoúr playstyle is just not good enough to make mech viable maybe it is, try it adapt your build etc etc.
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yes mech is a good transition lategame, no you dont make a pure mech army for lots of reasons, and yes pvt is imba due to how effectively the zealot/ht combination deals with everything but mass thors. No emp dont help against templars.
Stim is imba early in close position maps, every terran can admit it.
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Immortals are actually not such a good choice against mech as you might think. Due to the fact that even a tank's splash deals up to 10 damage to their shields, a ball of tanks kills of a ball of immortals rather quickly - you need to hit critical tank mass for this to work though. Also, blue flame hellions are an excellent meat shield and blocker unit for tanks. The better choice to go against a meching terran is to just go air. It doesn't really matter if it's voidrays or phoenixes, both will force the terran to invest heavily into vikings and cut heavily into his tank counts.
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I can't possibly read 38 pages of this but my take is that yeah, TvP isn't quite balanced. It seems to me the Terran always has to find a way around the system rather than working within it. My own TvP right now comes to working out faster and faster attacking times because I've decided cutting it before colossi isn't safe enough, as he can still try some fast fourgate warp-in stalkers or whatever.
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Haha, that was beautiful. The way the protoss mismicros half of his army into a different direction and still completely demolishes him.
Go mech.
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EPT
