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From my perspective, Protoss seems to have all the control in the matchup,
To start they could proxy gate, cannon rush or dt rush. All of these are instant wins if they aren't scouted soon enough. The dt rush and proxy gate can be especially difficult to scout making any build that doesn't adequately prepare for these somewhat risky.
4 Gate is also an extremely effective build that will roll over a terran who isn't prepared with bunkers. (Look at Jinro vs MC game 2. He had two bunkers and barely held it off). Again, this can be hard to scout.
The biggest problem for terran is a reliable way to scout. Sure, they have scans, but scans are severely limited and usually don't tell you anything. Zerg seems to have this problem as well. Protoss have it easy with a mobile scan that costs less and lasts forever.
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So to win you just have to go mass Marauder? Every time I try something different I die.
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sure cause protoss doesnt get forced into getting robo (banshees etc) and sentries by terran, they can just do everything. I see there is no explaining this to you guys, easy as that terrans say P imba derp op. Protoss say terran imba. I'm with protoss cause I've seen enough in gsl to know that its just redicelous how effective a tier 1/2 army of terran can be just stimming and throwing down 2-3 emps to insta gib everything
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On January 25 2011 08:46 pit__ wrote:
From my perspective, Protoss seems to have all the control in the matchup,
To start they could proxy gate, cannon rush or dt rush. All of these are instant wins if they aren't scouted soon enough. The dt rush and proxy gate can be especially difficult to scout making any build that doesn't adequately prepare for these somewhat risky.
4 Gate is also an extremely effective build that will roll over a terran who isn't prepared with bunkers. (Look at Jinro vs MC game 2. He had two bunkers and barely held it off). Again, this can be hard to scout.
The biggest problem for terran is a reliable way to scout. Sure, they have scans, but scans are severely limited and usually don't tell you anything. Zerg seems to have this problem as well. Protoss have it easy with a mobile scan that costs less and lasts forever.
Dude seriously, build a fucking reaper for once in your life.
Also 4gate is definitely not all that effective against T. Simply because the MM combo with stim just demolishes any warpgate unit.
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I've got maybe a 5% win ratio vs toss right now : / (2650 Master League) I can find no strategy at all that works consistently or lets me adapt. I am always behind and never gain any real footing unless the toss is a sub-par player. It's hurting my brain how my TvZ and TvT are 80-90% win ratios and soon as I see a P come up in the match making I know i've already lost. Collosus are just too damn good, high templar being spread almost neutralizes ghosts, zealots really don't seem to have a counter at all beyond marines which are eaten alive by the toss t3 units (and please don't just say kite them, I am talking about when you're in a fight where the toss is using force fields as well). Takes me 50% longer to match the protoss economy in fast expand builds and even then I can't pressure them when I attack due to force fields or fast collosus tech.
And don't even get me started on 4-gate rushes >< Build is still way too strong, you ethier barley hold them off or die outright because you didn't use a scan to scout their base since the stalker at entrance prevents scouting. Or you scan, find it and build 2-3 bunkers and then they come in with 2-3 sentries to prevent repairing the bunker. Honestly just plain cannot find any strategy at all that works vs a protoss outside of having outmacro'd or micro'd them to such a degree that they might as well be 1000+ points below you.
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On January 25 2011 08:57 JDeathmetal wrote:
sure cause protoss doesnt get forced into getting robo (banshees etc) and sentries by terran, they can just do everything. I see there is no explaining this to you guys, easy as that terrans say P imba derp op. Protoss say terran imba. I'm with protoss cause I've seen enough in gsl to know that its just redicelous how effective a tier 1/2 army of terran can be just stimming and throwing down 2-3 emps to insta gib everything
You guys get obs anyway because its like a scan that can move...and doesnt lose you 270 minerals...Sure you are forced to get it early due to banshee but you realize what a huge investment cloak banshees are if you want them to be effective? Theres a reason why we cant expand and get cloaked banshees at the same time AND having a decent amount of ground units early on to survive any push, or else then I'd agree that it is difficult for protoss to deal with. Getting a robo (which you would want anyway very soon) is not a huge investment that won't be as effective later on.
Also, I can say the same about EMP to storm and forcefields. If we dont pay attention to an expo for a second we can lose all scvs there to like 1 templar with a decent amount of energy. Then, if we're moving an army and dont control it properly in a narrow path we could lose half of it easy with good forcefields. The same way protoss can place good forcefields, we can place good EMPs.
Dude seriously, build a fucking reaper for once in your life.
Also 4gate is definitely not all that effective against T. Simply because the MM combo with stim just demolishes any warpgate unit.
Have you ever seen a 4gate on delta quadrant vs terran that goes for anything that isn't 2-3 rax opener? It goes without saying that 4gate is so fearful on a map like this and jungle basin. The reason why we don't always go 2-3 rax openers on delta is because we can not be 100% sure if you are going for a 4gate or dt rush. Sure, we can push with 2-3 rax but a sentry or two can delay it for too long giving you so much time for the DTs.
On January 25 2011 09:03 Talack wrote:
I've got maybe a 5% win ratio vs toss right now : / (2650 Master League) I can find no strategy at all that works consistently or lets me adapt. I am always behind and never gain any real footing unless the toss is a sub-par player. It's hurting my brain how my TvZ and TvT are 80-90% win ratios and soon as I see a P come up in the match making I know i've already lost. Collosus are just too damn good, high templar being spread almost neutralizes ghosts, zealots really don't seem to have a counter at all beyond marines which are eaten alive by the toss t3 units (and please don't just say kite them, I am talking about when you're in a fight where the toss is using force fields as well). Takes me 50% longer to match the protoss economy in fast expand builds and even then I can't pressure them when I attack due to force fields or fast collosus tech.
And don't even get me started on 4-gate rushes >< Build is still way too strong, you ethier barley hold them off or die outright because you didn't use a scan to scout their base since the stalker at entrance prevents scouting. Or you scan, find it and build 2-3 bunkers and then they come in with 2-3 sentries to prevent repairing the bunker. Honestly just plain cannot find any strategy at all that works vs a protoss outside of having outmacro'd or micro'd them to such a degree that they might as well be 1000+ points below you.
I'd have to agree here, and at the same level or higher. Once you start facing really good protoss players with great forcefields and good templar spread, it doesnt even matter how good you micro either because if anything works for them(either good forcefields or storm), we will lose our army super fast. Also with 4gate rushes, if it fails for him he can just grab 2nd gas and just sit outside your base with a much stronger army while expanding behind it. Then once he gets sentries you HAVE to tech to medivacs before moving outside your base or else you will just get FF'd on ramp and lose everything. The only success I've had mid-late game is when I'm either equal on bases or 1 base ahead. Harrasing with drops just falls apart once they get enough gateways because they just summon in units at drop location that outnumbers the dropship units.
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Tvp is sorta favored for p since of all the nerfs. The thing is that though tvp p is slightly stronger, lets say, Terran is known for its variety. P is for its strength. THere are many many many hard counters to protoss. EMPS, Marauders, Thors are really good, and vikings for all air, colossi and still good on ground. obs is very good though, and i also thing they shouldn't have buffed it though. But still. TvP is good, but only if you go OP units, which i hardly think fair but its true
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On January 25 2011 09:06 emidanRKO wrote:
Have you ever seen a 4gate on delta quadrant vs terran that goes for anything that isn't 2-3 rax opener? It goes without saying that 4gate is so fearful on a map like this and jungle basin. The reason why we don't always go 2-3 rax openers on delta is because we can not be 100% sure if you are going for a 4gate or dt rush. Sure, we can push with 2-3 rax but a sentry or two can delay it for too long giving you so much time for the DTs.
Why is delta quadrant strong for 4gates? And if you T's are getting smashed by P's, mind showing some replays, because I have plenty of trouble in PvT.
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These threads are utter filth.
If you believe there is a tech switch to mech that is possible that isn't a play that requires your opponent to mess up, then you need to go to the unit tester and try 200vs200.
There is no stable mech composition at 200 that can reliably beat 200 P at any reasonable end game scenario.
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On January 25 2011 09:12 TheDemigod wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2011 09:06 emidanRKO wrote:
Have you ever seen a 4gate on delta quadrant vs terran that goes for anything that isn't 2-3 rax opener? It goes without saying that 4gate is so fearful on a map like this and jungle basin. The reason why we don't always go 2-3 rax openers on delta is because we can not be 100% sure if you are going for a 4gate or dt rush. Sure, we can push with 2-3 rax but a sentry or two can delay it for too long giving you so much time for the DTs. Why is delta quadrant strong for 4gates? And if you T's are getting smashed by P's, mind showing some replays, because I have plenty of trouble in PvT.
Its really easy to contain your opponent and the pylon Backdoor trick is ubber annoying.
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On January 25 2011 09:12 TheDemigod wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2011 09:06 emidanRKO wrote:
Have you ever seen a 4gate on delta quadrant vs terran that goes for anything that isn't 2-3 rax opener? It goes without saying that 4gate is so fearful on a map like this and jungle basin. The reason why we don't always go 2-3 rax openers on delta is because we can not be 100% sure if you are going for a 4gate or dt rush. Sure, we can push with 2-3 rax but a sentry or two can delay it for too long giving you so much time for the DTs. Why is delta quadrant strong for 4gates? And if you T's are getting smashed by P's, mind showing some replays, because I have plenty of trouble in PvT.
You can make a pylon next to his back door expansion and summon in units there while moving from the front. In this case, the terran is vulnerable at both locations because he WON'T have enough units to deal with the front unless he has everything there. This is especially the case if he goes for 1/1/1, which a lot of people do to help nullify alot of protoss openers(other than 4gate, which is best held off with 2-3 bunkers because of 1 entrance of units to your base, but not on delta because of the back door expo)
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On January 25 2011 09:17 emidanRKO wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2011 09:12 TheDemigod wrote:On January 25 2011 09:06 emidanRKO wrote:
Have you ever seen a 4gate on delta quadrant vs terran that goes for anything that isn't 2-3 rax opener? It goes without saying that 4gate is so fearful on a map like this and jungle basin. The reason why we don't always go 2-3 rax openers on delta is because we can not be 100% sure if you are going for a 4gate or dt rush. Sure, we can push with 2-3 rax but a sentry or two can delay it for too long giving you so much time for the DTs. Why is delta quadrant strong for 4gates? And if you T's are getting smashed by P's, mind showing some replays, because I have plenty of trouble in PvT. You can make a pylon next to his back door expansion and summon in units there while moving from the front. In this case, the terran is vulnerable at both locations because he WON'T have enough units to deal with the front unless he has everything there. This is especially the case if he goes for 1/1/1, which a lot of people do to help nullify alot of protoss openers(other than 4gate, which is best held off with 2-3 bunkers because of 1 entrance of units to your base, but not on delta because of the back door expo)
So put a spotting depot at the back, bunker up when you see the 4gate coming, make sure you have stim up. Because I used to play T and I would love it when I spotted a 4gate coming because my 3rax would crush it because of marauder+stim basically. If you hold off a 4gate you've basically won unless he did very significant damage. You can simply build an expo inside your main while he tries to contain/expand, because if a 4gate fails you have to expand immediately, and even then you're way behind obviously.
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If you are having trouble against terran just watch some recent Whitera replays. Dude just won 3 tournaments and came 2nd in a 4th one, all against terran opponents IIRC. His PvT is pretty damn solid right now.
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On January 25 2011 09:31 TheDemigod wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2011 09:17 emidanRKO wrote:On January 25 2011 09:12 TheDemigod wrote:On January 25 2011 09:06 emidanRKO wrote:
Have you ever seen a 4gate on delta quadrant vs terran that goes for anything that isn't 2-3 rax opener? It goes without saying that 4gate is so fearful on a map like this and jungle basin. The reason why we don't always go 2-3 rax openers on delta is because we can not be 100% sure if you are going for a 4gate or dt rush. Sure, we can push with 2-3 rax but a sentry or two can delay it for too long giving you so much time for the DTs. Why is delta quadrant strong for 4gates? And if you T's are getting smashed by P's, mind showing some replays, because I have plenty of trouble in PvT. You can make a pylon next to his back door expansion and summon in units there while moving from the front. In this case, the terran is vulnerable at both locations because he WON'T have enough units to deal with the front unless he has everything there. This is especially the case if he goes for 1/1/1, which a lot of people do to help nullify alot of protoss openers(other than 4gate, which is best held off with 2-3 bunkers because of 1 entrance of units to your base, but not on delta because of the back door expo) So put a spotting depot at the back, bunker up when you see the 4gate coming, make sure you have stim up. Because I used to play T and I would love it when I spotted a 4gate coming because my 3rax would crush it because of marauder+stim basically. If you hold off a 4gate you've basically won unless he did very significant damage. You can simply build an expo inside your main while he tries to contain/expand, because if a 4gate fails you have to expand immediately, and even then you're way behind obviously.
I already do this, but it doesnt matter because like I said you need like 2 bunkers to make it work. else he can just run past the bunker and then you're in huge trouble. Sorry but I don't 3rax every game vs protoss just to be really safe to 4gate, it doesnt work that way.
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I just love that argument in the OP of 'in this replay, x race player played really well and I thought they would win and did not, so I took this as evidence that y race must be overpowered'.
To me that implies a shallow analysis. And then the question 'what could x player have done?' is so broad it's barely answerable. It should be immediately obvious there were hundreds of things they could have done, unless you think toss is so OP that T can only win if Protoss plays at a much lower skill level than them. And that's a) dumb and b) basically unprovable. So basically we've got a bunch of assertions and arguments that cannot be proven and a question that cannot be answered.
As for 4gates, these days everyone knows a dozen ways to hold it off. I go 2 rax expand and hold them off with relative ease. Everyone gets caught out by one every so often, but so what? As someone said, you hold it off and 9 times out of 10 you are a mile ahead.
On 4gates on DQ, just look in your backdoor nat for a pylon.
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On January 25 2011 09:31 TheDemigod wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2011 09:17 emidanRKO wrote:On January 25 2011 09:12 TheDemigod wrote:On January 25 2011 09:06 emidanRKO wrote:
Have you ever seen a 4gate on delta quadrant vs terran that goes for anything that isn't 2-3 rax opener? It goes without saying that 4gate is so fearful on a map like this and jungle basin. The reason why we don't always go 2-3 rax openers on delta is because we can not be 100% sure if you are going for a 4gate or dt rush. Sure, we can push with 2-3 rax but a sentry or two can delay it for too long giving you so much time for the DTs. Why is delta quadrant strong for 4gates? And if you T's are getting smashed by P's, mind showing some replays, because I have plenty of trouble in PvT. You can make a pylon next to his back door expansion and summon in units there while moving from the front. In this case, the terran is vulnerable at both locations because he WON'T have enough units to deal with the front unless he has everything there. This is especially the case if he goes for 1/1/1, which a lot of people do to help nullify alot of protoss openers(other than 4gate, which is best held off with 2-3 bunkers because of 1 entrance of units to your base, but not on delta because of the back door expo) So put a spotting depot at the back, bunker up when you see the 4gate coming, make sure you have stim up. Because I used to play T and I would love it when I spotted a 4gate coming because my 3rax would crush it because of marauder+stim basically. If you hold off a 4gate you've basically won unless he did very significant damage. You can simply build an expo inside your main while he tries to contain/expand, because if a 4gate fails you have to expand immediately, and even then you're way behind obviously.
He is talking about when u do 1-1-1 in DQ which is not really viable. Since the only way to hold 4gate with 1-1-1 is placing 2 or 3 bunkers and bringing scv. Banshee arrives to late and the 2 doors at DQ make it impossible.
If you do 3rax, it sure works well vs 4gate and fast expand but other than that, its a terrible opening. And protoss does not have to all in with 4gate, many of them expand afterwards.
Beating a protoss in my experience is only possible playing perfectly and rely on protoss not abusing the matchup.
And once it gets to late game the only way u can win is being way superior in upgrades or in macro.
The problem with mech is the early game. He can be agressive and you will strugle or just take the complete map. If ur going mech u wont be able to leave ur base until u have a huge army. Which leaves the protoss to react and tech to everything.
in Jinro vs MC, MC had a ton of mistakes losing his whole army trying to break Jinro's defense and not reacting properly. Jinro played way superiorly.
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I think Terran suffers from a similar problem that BW zerg had. We need major amounts of gas to effectively counter a Toss; this game has reached a point where bio+medivacs will not work anymore.
The timing in this game is all wrong; The window where terran cannot move out b/c he's teching or massing is huge compared to the toss timing window because of warp gates and chrono. This mean it takes longer for a terran to mass factories and mass units, meaning weaker map control and no 3rd expo. Macro terran will never win vs macro toss. Terran must push during a timing where the toss is weak, which doesn't exist for very long.
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I've heard so many terrans make these statements and I'm always confused. I play toss and my pvt is my worst matchup and has been since day 1. I'm about 60% wins vs P and Z but I'm about 22% wins vs terran. I usually win if its a long game, but the thing I can't deal with is terrans who apply constant pressure and force me to make lots of sentries which delays my tech. The other issue is I get stuck on 1 base for too long, yet whenever I take my natural early, I get punished and just loose outright when it goes down and terrans expo goes up. The main problem for me is a high pressure terran who forces the FF so I don't die (because before I get colossus or storm his infantry can just roll my army easily without good ff) but the gas cost delays my tech and then they start doing drops and target the tech I've put so much resources into. I can't tell you how many games I've played where I kill the terran army over and over (and have a handful of units left) and the first time I loose my army its game over. Terrans can do so much damage with harass, banshees, hellions (which can kill all of your workers even when you see them coming) and mm drops. Toss just feels very weak in the harass department.
Obviously, late game isn't an issue for me, amulet is insane and colossus at critical mass are insane as well. But early game I just get suffocated by pressure and nothing I can make except FF can deal with terrans infantry well. It's just so hard to get enough gas to have an army that can keep me alive and get colossus or HT's out. After every battle I loose units have to spend a lot of gas to replace them. Terrans have just gotten so good at baiting force fields. Many times they get 1 early ghost and emp my units. I honestly don't see why so many terrans bitch about storm. 80 damage, but most of it can be dodged and it's very expensive to tech to (which weakens my army as I'm waiting for it) But emp doesn't even have to be researched, does 100 dmg to shields and is instant and can't be dodged. It also counters HT and FF. Also, the ghosts can cloak. Now, imagine if storm worked like that and didn't have to be researched. I wish I understood better what these toss are doing that is making the terrans feel like they're op. I for the life of me cannot figure this matchup out from the protoss side. If I expo to early or tech to early I just die.
BTW terrans have no right bitching about gas cost in this matchup. Compare the cost of colossus to the cost of vikings, the cost of psi storm to the cost of ghost, compare the cost of gateway units to the cost of rax units. Compare the cost of twilight, to tech labs, or temp archive + storm to ghost academy for emp. After a cyber core, it takes 800 gas to get 1 colossus with range. So please, Terrans don't bitch about gas costs in this matchup. Your upgrades and tech structures are DIRT CHEAP when compared to toss.
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On January 25 2011 10:12 Reptilia wrote:
Jinro played way superiorly.
So you need to play better to win? Sounds good to me.
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just let them rant on. it's no use they know 1 race, they can't see past that.
i play random and know your pain.
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EPT
