EPTBy the way ghost's are insanely good, they basically stop most spells from casting (if the toss can spread well then not everything can be emp'd but you're always going to hit lots) and pretty much half all the Toss' units HP, and the ghost can also get cloak and emp range is huge. I myself find PvT kind of balanced later game, although I feel T can fight muccch more cost effectively, but its the early game that T can really hurt P, with one base all ins (raven/bshee) and denying scouting for awhile with wall offs, forcing P to 1/2gate robo.
TvP – A Terran’s view - Page 37
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TheDemigod
Australia79 Posts
By the way ghost's are insanely good, they basically stop most spells from casting (if the toss can spread well then not everything can be emp'd but you're always going to hit lots) and pretty much half all the Toss' units HP, and the ghost can also get cloak and emp range is huge. I myself find PvT kind of balanced later game, although I feel T can fight muccch more cost effectively, but its the early game that T can really hurt P, with one base all ins (raven/bshee) and denying scouting for awhile with wall offs, forcing P to 1/2gate robo. | ||
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statikg
Canada930 Posts
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gejfsyd
Poland156 Posts
On January 25 2011 01:16 statikg wrote: how is this waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah post still around, ps HT are OP They are worse then they were in sc1... | ||
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Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
On January 25 2011 01:10 TheDemigod wrote: I love that Terran's whine about their tier 1.5 MMM (2 of which are extremely cheap) getting killed by tier 3 gas heavy units. They should own them, they cost twice as much. And for those of you that think storm is greater than emp. Emp is instant, cannot be dodge, storm can be run out of and thus reducing damage greatly. You whine that your marine/marauder that have 3 cheap upgrades get owned by templar that require 2 expensive tech buildings, 2 expensive upgrades, and the unit itself is gas heavy. See the problem guys? By the way ghost's are insanely good, they basically stop most spells from casting (if the toss can spread well then not everything can be emp'd but you're always going to hit lots) and pretty much half all the Toss' units HP, and the ghost can also get cloak and emp range is huge. I myself find PvT kind of balanced later game, although I feel T can fight muccch more cost effectively, but its the early game that T can really hurt P, with one base all ins (raven/bshee) and denying scouting for awhile with wall offs, forcing P to 1/2gate robo. Terrans whine because they have no viable tier 3... | ||
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TheDemigod
Australia79 Posts
On January 25 2011 01:26 Dente wrote: Terrans whine because they have no viable tier 3... Herp derp tanks, thors, banshee, raven, ghost. | ||
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erAn
Belgium4 Posts
On January 08 2011 01:02 Lurk wrote: In most macro games i play vs protoss i have equal or better economy/income, i have little unspend Money (Always Keeping those production facilities running) and i still lose most of them. So please tell me, what more is there to macro that i don't get ? I have the impression that it is my MICRO that's Keeping me from winning the battles, not the MACRO. And having watched my fair share of TvP PrO replays i can tell you that it's not the macro that's Keeping the terrans from winning. It's just that microing mmm(vg) is imo harder to do than microing gateway + placing storms. I registered to quote this. So True! | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On January 25 2011 01:40 TheDemigod wrote: Herp derp tanks, thors, banshee, raven, ghost. The first two are hard countered by immortal/zealot, the last three by HT feedback and/or storms. When even pros have an extremely hard time getting mech to work (dont say Jinro, hes the exception and not the rule), calling it our viable tier 3 along with the derogatory "herp derp" just shows how little understanding you have of this matchup. Trust me, whatever unit combos the pro players are using: they are the most efficient ones. For TvP, it happens to be infantry-based 95% of the time. Are you trying to say you know a better way to play terran? | ||
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TheDemigod
Australia79 Posts
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
How about you show us some replays to prove the point? A terran player successfully switching to mech play and winning a protoss in a long macro game. Preferrably GSL level. Come on, teach us lowly terran peons how to play! | ||
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Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
On January 25 2011 02:18 TheDemigod wrote: Okay so when you say that Immortal/Zealot hard counter tanks and thors, you realise you have these lovely other units that can also counter them too right? It's not like you build a thor and because I have an immortal I win the game. You say that your tier 3 is countered too easily by toss tier 3, well thats the way the game is being played so maybe try moving away from bio because you have units that can counter Toss' tier 3 also. By the way thors smash Immortals thanks to 250mm cannon. The pro players don't simply 1a their 200/200 bio into a protoss army though, if you're going to use a cheap cost efficient army you can't expect to engage directly and smash the other army (although this happens frequently). And those lovely high templar that we have, emp, emp, emp, emp. It's extremely hard to feedback a ghost, and even harder to feedback a cloaked banshee that has raven/marines to take out obs that comes before HT would even be possible to have. Maybe just try tanks sometime and you will be surprised at how insanely strong they are, even when the P has immortals, HT, blink, charge, archons. 1) bio is not viable lategame thx to storm, collossus. Then there is left: thors, banshees, tanks. Tanks and thors are 100% immobile and they are countered by simple immortal play. Pure mech is also countered by collossus + stalker (very mobile, can blink / run up cliffs). Banshees are a joke against HT + stalker. 2) thors smash immortals thanks to the 250mm cannon: true, but only in small fights. In maxed out fights there is no chance to 250mm cannon, try it yourself and you will notice how fast your thor dies while trying to do it. 3) emp emp emp is right, but then your energy is gone and toss warps in 5 fresh HT's. Bye bye bioball. 4) like I said: tanks are immobile. They are awesome but not viable. Check strelok vs naniwa and goody vs naniwa. | ||
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TheDemigod
Australia79 Posts
On January 25 2011 02:32 Dente wrote: 1) bio is not viable lategame thx to storm, collossus. Then there is left: thors, banshees, tanks. Tanks and thors are 100% immobile and they are countered by simple immortal play. Pure mech is also countered by collossus + stalker (very mobile, can blink / run up cliffs). Banshees are a joke against HT + stalker. 2) thors smash immortals thanks to the 250mm cannon: true, but only in small fights. In maxed out fights there is no chance to 250mm cannon, try it yourself and you will notice how fast your thor dies while trying to do it. 3) emp emp emp is right, but then your energy is gone and toss warps in 5 fresh HT's. Bye bye bioball. 4) like I said: tanks are immobile. They are awesome but not viable. Check strelok vs naniwa and goody vs naniwa. Yes, bio isn't quite viable late game, and it shouldn't be. A protoss army isnt very mobile too you know, it basically has to stay together at all times. From the games I've played, tanks demolish zealots/stalkers, and marines take care of the immortals. So with emp, you're saying you demolish their army very cost effectively with tier 1.5 units and you worried about a few HT finishing off you army? Tank's are obviously viable, don't just say they aren't viable, because there are plenty of games around, that I've seen and that I've played, in which tanks are used very well PvT. | ||
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TheDemigod
Australia79 Posts
On January 25 2011 02:30 Bagi wrote: Theorycrafting is cute and all, but I can see it going nowhere in this case. How about you show us some replays to prove the point? A terran player successfully switching to mech play and winning a protoss in a long macro game. Preferrably GSL level. Come on, teach us lowly terran peons how to play! Have you seen Jinro vs MC? It's quite a good example. It just kind of blows my mind that T's complain about their low tech units battling cost effectively up until very late game. | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6566 Posts
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TheDemigod
Australia79 Posts
On January 25 2011 02:48 Alejandrisha wrote: it's true that the later tech units of terran are not as easy to use as mmm. you might actually have to think about positioning and compositions and how you engage etc, which I know might be difficult at first. I think the problem is a lot of terrans don't really have a lot of experience using these different compositions in the late game but when they are used effectively they are way more cost effective than bio in the later stages of the game. This man gets it. | ||
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giuocob
United States149 Posts
On January 25 2011 02:30 Bagi wrote: Theorycrafting is cute and all, but I can see it going nowhere in this case. How about you show us some replays to prove the point? A terran player successfully switching to mech play and winning a protoss in a long macro game. Preferrably GSL level. Come on, teach us lowly terran peons how to play! You're trolling, right? | ||
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KonohaFlash
Canada1590 Posts
You were trying to prove your point right? Just post some replays is all he's asking. | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
Gold-level protoss can call tanks and thors stronger options until the cows come home, but the truth is that until the matchup has a paradigm shift towards people using them, they simply arent. No amount of half-assed theorycrafting will change that. Jinro did great, I'll give you that. Now lets see if other people start doing the same, and succeed with it. I kinda doubt it. I think its amusing to that you guys are indirectly telling people like MKP and MVP to learn to think about positioning and how to engage the protoss army with new unit compositions. They actually know the terran race inside out, they know what its capable of, and they go MMM. Just stop. | ||
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giuocob
United States149 Posts
On January 25 2011 03:01 Bagi wrote: No I havent seen Jinro's games, I only mentioned them to be an expection because I'm a psychic. Gold-level protoss can call tanks and thors stronger options until the cows come home, but the truth is that until the matchup has a paradigm shift towards people using them, they simply arent. No amount of half-assed theorycrafting will change that. Jinro did great, I'll give you that. Now lets see if other people start doing the same, and succeed with it. I kinda doubt it. I think its amusing to that you guys are indirectly telling people like MKP and MVP to learn to think about positioning and how to engage the protoss army with new unit compositions. They actually know the terran race inside out, they know what its capable of, and they go MMM. Just stop. People like MKP and MVP generally go for massive 1 or 2 base all in plays instead of looking toward the late game for the win. Terran is extremely powerful in these shorter types of games, which is why most high level terrans go for such strategies. The people in this thread, however, are asking about how to play the late game against protoss, which is a different strategy entirely. These same people would probably have more success with straight 2 base play, but if they want to play for the later game, then these new unit composition certainly have a place. | ||
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TheDemigod
Australia79 Posts
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Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
1) on lost temple: mc attacked into jinro's bunkers and failed. Then jinro contained him. In this scenario I always win my tvp, 100%. 2) on scrap station: small map with very few ways to the enemy base + WRONG unit composition from mc. Jinro scouted his carriers and had enough vikings. --> In both games there were a maximum of 3 bases taken by mc... Watch these 2 replays and then tell me honestly if mech is actually viable: http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/(T)mouzStrelok_vs_(P)nAni_lost_temple_sc2rep_com_20110110/4305 http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/()_vs_()__sc2rep_com_20110116/4503 Terran tier 3 can't compete with protoss. To the guy suggesting MARINES to support your mech: 1 storm and they die. They are NOT viable late game. To the guy saying that you need a good composition and good positioning: what composition? Mech is mech. You can add air and you can add bio. Both will be destroyed. While you are positioning with mech, your opponent is expanding and countering your mech with air. Those people talking about "the right unit composition": I wonder what composition can compete with protoss lategame... Just watch those 2 replays from goody and strelok and see what a joke mechplay actually is, unless the protoss doesn't expand like a zerg and just makes stalker+zealot + ht. | ||
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