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On December 13 2010 22:49 EasternSun wrote:
Funny how conveniently you choose such replays,i can show you tons of pro replays in where terrans decimate protoss,not to speak what it is the matchup in the highest lvls.True it is terran favored - the facts shows that.
As for those matchups,when the two pro players are going at it,we can assume they have almost the same lvl of macro,so it's decided pretty much from unit combinations and in-game decisions as well as micro.
Seems to me another QQ thread,learn what in-game decisions and unit combination are good and what are bad at certain cases,then come again QQ-ing about the matchup.I suggest go and find replays where terrans wins(there are so many of them),and then come and post useless threads.That way your time will be better spent,instead of digging 2 or 3 replays where protoss wins because of terran player mistakes.
I agree with your sentiments statistics do not lie, the numbers are in favor of Terran at the highest levels of play.
Edit: The argument can go either way, Vikings own Colossi, Psi Storm is the great equalizer...etc. Just go with the numbers.
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Personally, I find the best way to deal with protoss is to push out with a strong bio - viking timing attack, and with a few tanks mixed in if he masses more gateway units, this is if he is going collosi. I make sure I hit right before templar tech is done, and usually I'm able to break through. If he is going for an early archives, he's being too greedy and you can push out and punish him, usually ending a game right there.
Another approach I find viable on some maps, is too go for quick marauders and pressure a bit, in which case he will most likely transition into collosi, keep pumping bio, with vikings and dropships, he will comfortably sit back and tech to hts, the thing is though he has considerably less mobility with his army. So you want to hold up a strong position, eg. one of the xelnaga towers on lost temple assuming your opponent is on the opposite side, and go for continuous drops, at this time your opponent is likely holding the other tower with something like three bases, possibly four if his micro is good, if you can get the templar archives thats great, but you really want to pick off geysers and probes. If your drops end up doing lots of damage, the you can push with your bio + viking, if he responds well, get a ghost academy and stall while you get siege tech, at this point its really about constantly having a good idea of when his army is out of position so that you can push, if it drags on you will definitely need siege tech to survive, but even then at this point your window is closed, and a good toss can gradually push and take you.
Pure mech, i.e., helions, thors and vikings, and banshees if you want them, actually works really well against toss, the problem is transitioning from the initial bio play, however, if your opponent is going extremely zealot heavy if you are going marauders, you should definitely get some blue flame helions, which absolutely massacre zealot balls, the insane amount of splash will let your bio pick them off easily, at the mid game stage, which he is transitioning to hts, this can easily net you a win, if you opponent is careless with his unit composition.
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IMO the matchup is pretty balanced and the ghost is still underused.
Ts have everything to counter the opponent without having too much to invest in tech"switches"!
the opponent has colossi? oh, i can make vikings out of my starport which i have anyway.
HTs? get ghosts, ffs. they own pretty much every protoss ball as well as sentries + HTs behind the enemy army. the cast is instant and AOE, you can't dodge it as storm and has like infinite range.
you're behind in economy/tech? marauder drop the enemy with your medivacs (you have them anyway..) and surprise him, they do ridiculous damage to buildings. it's not even funny anymore how fast you can take down buildings with marauders compared to units of other races. invest the same minerals/gas for a protoss drop and you can't do nothing to buildings. and Ps paperplane doesn't even heal the units.
your MMM ball doesn't kill everything? spread it, add tanks, add vikings(indeed), upgrade it, add ghosts. and if you have the economy: make a thor to stomp down force fields. why not?
and counter the enemy unit composition, you can't expect your MMs alone to roflstomp everything.
and picking out fitting replays as support for your QQ doesn't make it better, coz there are enough replays out there that prove the opposite.
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....the cast is instant...
no its not don't speak if you dont know how stuff works...
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On January 07 2011 21:56 ilikeLIONZ wrote:IMO the matchup is pretty balanced and the ghost is still underused.
Ts have everything to counter the opponent without having too much to invest in tech"switches"!
the opponent has colossi? oh, i can make vikings out of my starport which i have anyway.
HTs? get ghosts, ffs. they own pretty much every protoss ball as well as sentries + HTs behind the enemy army. the cast is instant and AOE, you can't dodge it as storm and has like infinite range.
you're behind in economy/tech? marauder drop the enemy with your medivacs (you have them anyway..) and surprise him, they do ridiculous damage to buildings. it's not even funny anymore how fast you can take down buildings with marauders compared to units of other races. invest the same minerals/gas for a protoss drop and you can't do nothing to buildings. and Ps paperplane doesn't even heal the units.
your MMM ball doesn't kill everything? spread it, add tanks, add vikings(indeed), upgrade it, add ghosts. and if you have the economy: make a thor to stomp down force fields. why not?
and counter the enemy unit composition, you can't expect your MMs alone to roflstomp everything.
and picking out fitting replays as support for your QQ doesn't make it better, coz there are enough replays out there that prove the opposite.
Of course we have to invest in tech switches. First off all, one production building is often not enough to produce sufficient units, even when using reactors - so you have to add production buildings. Next there is upgrades. Bio, mech and air all have completely different damage/armor upgrades so you'll have to start from scratch. And that is not to mention things like energy upgrades, cloak etc.
I'm not saying terran has a harder time tech switching than other races, but we don't have an easier time either. And saying we already have the counter to everything readily available is pretty stupid. If we have barracks, factory, starport, ghost academy and armory of course we can make everything (barring bcs). Just like a toss who has a stargate, warpgates, robo and templar archives. Just because we get it anyway does not mean that it is any easier to get.
For the record, EMP is NOT instant but is a projectile that CAN miss if the enemy moves out quickly. And it does NOT have "like infinite range" but rather slightly more (+1) range than feedback and storm.
Protoss can't do effective drops ? Just because many protoss don't recognize how awesome warp prisms are does not mean that they are useless. You should watch some games of whitera for example. He uses a lot of warp prisms lately and does really nice stuff with them. Those "paperplanes" as you call them have only 10 hp less than a medivac at equal speed. So how are they any more fragile than the medivac ? Oh and did i mention they don't cost gas ?
make a thor to stomp down force fields. why not?
This one made me laugh. I'd actually like to see thors used to stomp down forcefields by anyone and still win the fight. By the time your slow ass thor walks over the forcefields, they have disappeared anyway. It's not like you have to move near a ff to crush it, you have to walk on top of it. Of and of course your 300/200 unit does a whooping 0 damage while it trying to stomp ffs.
you can't expect your MMs alone to roflstomp everything.
Yes, that is why we add medivacs, vikings and ghosts to the mix.
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On January 07 2011 22:58 Lurk wrote:
For the record, EMP is NOT instant but is a projectile that CAN miss if the enemy moves out quickly. And it does NOT have "like infinite range" but rather slightly more (+1) range than feedback and storm.
isn't it like 13 range at the edge of the aoe spell? indeed it hasn't infinite range as i said, that was just to point out that it has a big range and the cast is almost instant and so freakin hard to dodge for an average player like you and me becuz it's almost instant (OK). in the moment you see the projectile flying (which i doubt you often do) you want to move out quickly? ok, monster reflexes you got there! the only thing you can do is predicting it, you can't just stim and run out of it like with a storm.
On January 07 2011 22:58 Lurk wrote:
Protoss can't do effective drops ? Just because many protoss don't recognize how awesome warp prisms are does not mean that they are useless. Oh and did i mention they don't cost gas ?
are you the yellow press? i didn't write anything like they can't do effective drops, i just meant that a marauder drop is so cost effective if you focus tech buildings or expansions coz they take out buildings in no time, compared to a protoss drop OF THE SAME COST and tech "tier".
indeed, storm drops and immortal drops can be superawesome..
they don't cost gas because they don't HEAL and you can't pump out two of them at the same time off of one building. i called them paperplanes because of their look! (Origami? anyone?)
On January 07 2011 22:58 Lurk wrote:
This one made me laugh. I'd actually like to see thors used to stomp down forcefields by anyone and still win the fight. By the time your slow ass thor walks over the forcefields, they have disappeared anyway. It's not like you have to move near a ff to crush it, you have to walk on top of it. Of and of course your 300/200 unit does a whooping 0 damage while it trying to stomp ffs.
it was just an appeal to try out new things, i've seen it work. People like TLO, who do freakin smart things in their games, wouldn't ever attract such a huge crowd if they would just play the standard way instead of doing cool stuff like that. also i added "if you have the economy for it".
On January 07 2011 22:58 Lurk wrote:
Yes, that is why we add medivacs, vikings and ghosts to the mix.
yes and that's what i wrote, no?
please stop generalizing my statements that deal with specific situations.
the matchup is well-balanced, it's not broken or whatever the message of the thread is.
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Don't read too much into my post i was just trying to correct some things that you stated. Obviously i misunderstood your post too if i wasn't a rant about how op terran is. You're a protoss player and obviously have a biased perspective of things, just like i have as a terran player. That's why we should help each other understand the misconceptions we have about the other's race. Like me telling you emp has not infinite but 10 range and is not instant (although it actually rarely happens that you miss). You free to and i would actually appreciate you telling me about misconceptions about toss as well. This would help my understanding of the matchup and improve my play.
The message of the thread is not that it's favored one way or the other but rather a discussion to improve or diversify terran lategame tactics vs protoss. As most terrans don't fell the matchup is well-balanced but rather that we have an advantage in the early game but a disadvantage in the late game (leading to about 50% win rate and giving the impression of a balanced matchup).
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I don't get why all protoss just say terran can get viking to kill colossus. By the time vikings kill colossus, you have no more army except the 1 or 2 vikings left. I'm not saying that terran shouldn't get vikings, but protoss seem to think that its so easy for terran to kill colossus,
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I find it a little silly how late game toss can just slap down colossus, ht, and carriers all at the same time and then belt out an endless stream of zealots with their excess minerals.
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On January 07 2011 19:33 undyinglight wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2010 22:49 EasternSun wrote:
Funny how conveniently you choose such replays,i can show you tons of pro replays in where terrans decimate protoss,not to speak what it is the matchup in the highest lvls.True it is terran favored - the facts shows that.
As for those matchups,when the two pro players are going at it,we can assume they have almost the same lvl of macro,so it's decided pretty much from unit combinations and in-game decisions as well as micro.
Seems to me another QQ thread,learn what in-game decisions and unit combination are good and what are bad at certain cases,then come again QQ-ing about the matchup.I suggest go and find replays where terrans wins(there are so many of them),and then come and post useless threads.That way your time will be better spent,instead of digging 2 or 3 replays where protoss wins because of terran player mistakes. I agree with your sentiments statistics do not lie, the numbers are in favor of Terran at the highest levels of play. Edit: The argument can go either way, Vikings own Colossi, Psi Storm is the great equalizer...etc. Just go with the numbers.
Have you never heard that there are three lies?
Lies, damned lies, and statistics.
First, where are the facts? Second, so what if they win at the highest level? It doesn't indicate balance.
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Kas never really impresses me as a player. I've seen several of his replays and he's rather all-innish of a player who prefers to stay on 1-2 base. I'm not saying that this is bad (It can be your style if you want it to be), it's just that it seems whenever i look at the production, all I'll see is a supply depot and facepalm because he's supply blocked himself again. To be honest, you have to play WAY more solid lategame than people would think, and at the moment people who play Terran just don't know how to play macro games because the rest of their strategies have been so gimmicky and have always been so successful that terrible macro didn't matter because they had already killed like 10-20 workers for the opponent.
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On January 07 2011 23:58 Farkinator wrote:
Kas never really impresses me as a player. I've seen several of his replays and he's rather all-innish of a player who prefers to stay on 1-2 base. I'm not saying that this is bad (It can be your style if you want it to be), it's just that it seems whenever i look at the production, all I'll see is a supply depot and facepalm because he's supply blocked himself again. To be honest, you have to play WAY more solid lategame than people would think, and at the moment people who play Terran just don't know how to play macro games because the rest of their strategies have been so gimmicky and have always been so successful that terrible macro didn't matter because they had already killed like 10-20 workers for the opponent.
People keep saying that terran players just suck at macro, but why do you exactly think zerg or toss players are any better? The reason why terran players try to end games before lategame is, zerg and toss can both roflstomp lategame terrans(well lately toss more, I feel I can control zerg a lot more into lategame, so I'm not screwed there).
For lategame TvP, you have to have pretty sweet multitasking to be able to hit the toss on 2-3 places at the same time, which a lot of us just don't have the skill to do(yet anyway). Else AoE just rapes terran and there's nothing else to look forward to. Been trying out thors to move out of MMM, but everything a thor can do, MMM can do a lot better. Banshee play works to some extend, if you are careful using scan+vikings to snipe obs's, but straight up, lategame the terran just has to be a lot better to come out ahead(or have done good econ dmg in early game).
My macro could be better, but as far as I can tell, I'm no worse than any other players of my pt level(~2.4k pts) in that regard, I just loose 95+% of TvP after 3 bases. I can win at 2 bases, or more accurately, before templar+storm+kayden hit, but after that... This isn't to say I've stopped trying, but it feels like on 3base(at my skill level) the game is the toss's to loose.
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On January 07 2011 23:58 Farkinator wrote:
Kas never really impresses me as a player. I've seen several of his replays and he's rather all-innish of a player who prefers to stay on 1-2 base. I'm not saying that this is bad (It can be your style if you want it to be), it's just that it seems whenever i look at the production, all I'll see is a supply depot and facepalm because he's supply blocked himself again. To be honest, you have to play WAY more solid lategame than people would think, and at the moment people who play Terran just don't know how to play macro games because the rest of their strategies have been so gimmicky and have always been so successful that terrible macro didn't matter because they had already killed like 10-20 workers for the opponent.
What exactly to do mean my terran player suck at macro ? To my understanding macro is considered managing and expanding your economy, building adequate production facilities and keeping them running and also of course manage your army whilst doing that. Knowing when and where to attack are obviously factors as well.
In most macro games i play vs protoss i have equal or better economy/income, i have little unspend money (always keeping those production facilities running) and i still lose most of them. So please tell me, what more is there to macro that i don't get ? I have the impression that it is my MICRO that's keeping me from winning the battles, not the MACRO. And having watched my fair share of TvP pro replays i can tell you that it's not the macro that's keeping the terrans from winning. It's just that microing mmm(vg) is imo harder to do than microing gateway + placing storms.
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On January 07 2011 23:43 Mr_Kyo wrote:
I don't get why all protoss just say terran can get viking to kill colossus. By the time vikings kill colossus, you have no more army except the 1 or 2 vikings left. I'm not saying that terran shouldn't get vikings, but protoss seem to think that its so easy for terran to kill colossus,
Use vikings' superior range to harass colossus prior to engagement, attacking along a different vector rather than just A-move from your main force. He'll bring his stalkers over, you'll fly away and start looping around, etc. The idea is either to do damage to the colossi, or to get the stalkers out of position; if you can do that then you can bring up your army and focus on the colossi (or just hammer the rest of his army for cheap for a second while he runs his stalkers back).
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On January 08 2011 00:53 Zarahtra wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 23:58 Farkinator wrote:
Kas never really impresses me as a player. I've seen several of his replays and he's rather all-innish of a player who prefers to stay on 1-2 base. I'm not saying that this is bad (It can be your style if you want it to be), it's just that it seems whenever i look at the production, all I'll see is a supply depot and facepalm because he's supply blocked himself again. To be honest, you have to play WAY more solid lategame than people would think, and at the moment people who play Terran just don't know how to play macro games because the rest of their strategies have been so gimmicky and have always been so successful that terrible macro didn't matter because they had already killed like 10-20 workers for the opponent. People keep saying that terran players just suck at macro, but why do you exactly think zerg or toss players are any better? The reason why terran players try to end games before lategame is, zerg and toss can both roflstomp lategame terrans(well lately toss more, I feel I can control zerg a lot more into lategame, so I'm not screwed there). For lategame TvP, you have to have pretty sweet multitasking to be able to hit the toss on 2-3 places at the same time, which a lot of us just don't have the skill to do(yet anyway). Else AoE just rapes terran and there's nothing else to look forward to. Been trying out thors to move out of MMM, but everything a thor can do, MMM can do a lot better. Banshee play works to some extend, if you are careful using scan+vikings to snipe obs's, but straight up, lategame the terran just has to be a lot better to come out ahead(or have done good econ dmg in early game). My macro could be better, but as far as I can tell, I'm no worse than any other players of my pt level(~2.4k pts) in that regard, I just loose 95+% of TvP after 3 bases. I can win at 2 bases, or more accurately, before templar+storm+kayden hit, but after that... This isn't to say I've stopped trying, but it feels like on 3base(at my skill level) the game is the toss's to loose.
Terran players are worse at macro then Z and P players for a reason, because all of the strats that they have built around have been very all innish. Everyone knew T players would be bad at macro games once they were brought into line (Siege Tank nerf, Reaper Nerf, Medivac speed nerf, numerous buffs to both races) because they simply hadn't practiced them enough, while P and Z players have been constantly playing long macro games since the beginning of retail.
Every single popular T strat to date has been extremely all innish
1) 1-1-1 Blue Helion drop, if this fails, you are set way behind
2) 3 Rax Reaper Rush, all innish (but OP obviously)
3) Marine/Tank/Raven push off a 1-1-1 build (predominantly 1 base play strat vs P)
4) Bio drops off 1 base into mass stim timing 80+ food attack
5) 3-1-2 Marine/Banshee/Raven 10 minute push
etc.
Virtually every single T strat that has developed has revolved around strong 1 base play that is suppose to outright kill or cripple your opponent. Not many Ts have ever developed strong macro style of play except STC and Jinro, and STC no longer plays anymore. Even during the beta T strats revolved around extremely strong early game that put them far ahead of the other races.
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On January 08 2011 02:36 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 00:53 Zarahtra wrote:On January 07 2011 23:58 Farkinator wrote:
Kas never really impresses me as a player. I've seen several of his replays and he's rather all-innish of a player who prefers to stay on 1-2 base. I'm not saying that this is bad (It can be your style if you want it to be), it's just that it seems whenever i look at the production, all I'll see is a supply depot and facepalm because he's supply blocked himself again. To be honest, you have to play WAY more solid lategame than people would think, and at the moment people who play Terran just don't know how to play macro games because the rest of their strategies have been so gimmicky and have always been so successful that terrible macro didn't matter because they had already killed like 10-20 workers for the opponent. People keep saying that terran players just suck at macro, but why do you exactly think zerg or toss players are any better? The reason why terran players try to end games before lategame is, zerg and toss can both roflstomp lategame terrans(well lately toss more, I feel I can control zerg a lot more into lategame, so I'm not screwed there). For lategame TvP, you have to have pretty sweet multitasking to be able to hit the toss on 2-3 places at the same time, which a lot of us just don't have the skill to do(yet anyway). Else AoE just rapes terran and there's nothing else to look forward to. Been trying out thors to move out of MMM, but everything a thor can do, MMM can do a lot better. Banshee play works to some extend, if you are careful using scan+vikings to snipe obs's, but straight up, lategame the terran just has to be a lot better to come out ahead(or have done good econ dmg in early game). My macro could be better, but as far as I can tell, I'm no worse than any other players of my pt level(~2.4k pts) in that regard, I just loose 95+% of TvP after 3 bases. I can win at 2 bases, or more accurately, before templar+storm+kayden hit, but after that... This isn't to say I've stopped trying, but it feels like on 3base(at my skill level) the game is the toss's to loose. Terran players are worse at macro then Z and P players for a reason, because all of the strats that they have built around have been very all innish. Everyone knew T players would be bad at macro games once they were brought into line (Siege Tank nerf, Reaper Nerf, Medivac speed nerf, numerous buffs to both races) because they simply hadn't practiced them enough, while P and Z players have been constantly playing long macro games since the beginning of retail. Every single popular T strat to date has been extremely all innish 1) 1-1-1 Blue Helion drop, if this fails, you are set way behind 2) 3 Rax Reaper Rush, all innish (but OP obviously) 3) Marine/Tank/Raven push off a 1-1-1 build (predominantly 1 base play strat vs P) 4) Bio drops off 1 base into mass stim timing 80+ food attack 5) 3-1-2 Marine/Banshee/Raven 10 minute push etc. Virtually every single T strat that has developed has revolved around strong 1 base play that is suppose to outright kill or cripple your opponent. Not many Ts have ever developed strong macro style of play except STC and Jinro, and STC no longer plays anymore.
Your reasoning for the strats being semi-allin, is because the macro mechanic of P and Z are stronger in a macro game, zerg can produce up to double the workers terran can, which makes mule's static +4.5 workers rather lackluster. Same goes for toss, their ability to produce up to 22% more workers(with all CB on probes), forces terran to be offensive race, in a straight up macro game this means, either playing ridiculously efficiently or more commonly, with insane harassment(be it hellions/reapers/banshee for worker roast, nexus/hatch sniping etc).
You can see this quite clearly if you compare TvT with TvP/TvZ(You can also see this if you compare PvT with PvZ, where on one side, toss is perfectly fine chilling and expanding vs timing attacks/offensive play). There's no real pressure there for the terran to make his move, he's just got to not be caught out of position and not fall behind on bases.
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Protoss had issues with MMM we found a way to counter it and what Terran do.. keep on going MMM!
Try new things, figure out ways to abuse the other players for having colossus. Head on MMM is good early on, but late game vs P it's pretty average. I think Painuser vs Tyler at MLG is a good example of this. Painuser is a good terran player late game and he totally schooled Tyler who's one of the top protoss player.
I feel like Terran just need to think outside the box, If the Protoss goes with the colossus ball, HT or not into it and you just run into it get FF'ed and die yougot only yourself to blame. When I have gateway units army, I don't run into siege tank line.
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On January 08 2011 02:57 Zarahtra wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 02:36 superstartran wrote:On January 08 2011 00:53 Zarahtra wrote:On January 07 2011 23:58 Farkinator wrote:
Kas never really impresses me as a player. I've seen several of his replays and he's rather all-innish of a player who prefers to stay on 1-2 base. I'm not saying that this is bad (It can be your style if you want it to be), it's just that it seems whenever i look at the production, all I'll see is a supply depot and facepalm because he's supply blocked himself again. To be honest, you have to play WAY more solid lategame than people would think, and at the moment people who play Terran just don't know how to play macro games because the rest of their strategies have been so gimmicky and have always been so successful that terrible macro didn't matter because they had already killed like 10-20 workers for the opponent. People keep saying that terran players just suck at macro, but why do you exactly think zerg or toss players are any better? The reason why terran players try to end games before lategame is, zerg and toss can both roflstomp lategame terrans(well lately toss more, I feel I can control zerg a lot more into lategame, so I'm not screwed there). For lategame TvP, you have to have pretty sweet multitasking to be able to hit the toss on 2-3 places at the same time, which a lot of us just don't have the skill to do(yet anyway). Else AoE just rapes terran and there's nothing else to look forward to. Been trying out thors to move out of MMM, but everything a thor can do, MMM can do a lot better. Banshee play works to some extend, if you are careful using scan+vikings to snipe obs's, but straight up, lategame the terran just has to be a lot better to come out ahead(or have done good econ dmg in early game). My macro could be better, but as far as I can tell, I'm no worse than any other players of my pt level(~2.4k pts) in that regard, I just loose 95+% of TvP after 3 bases. I can win at 2 bases, or more accurately, before templar+storm+kayden hit, but after that... This isn't to say I've stopped trying, but it feels like on 3base(at my skill level) the game is the toss's to loose. Terran players are worse at macro then Z and P players for a reason, because all of the strats that they have built around have been very all innish. Everyone knew T players would be bad at macro games once they were brought into line (Siege Tank nerf, Reaper Nerf, Medivac speed nerf, numerous buffs to both races) because they simply hadn't practiced them enough, while P and Z players have been constantly playing long macro games since the beginning of retail. Every single popular T strat to date has been extremely all innish 1) 1-1-1 Blue Helion drop, if this fails, you are set way behind 2) 3 Rax Reaper Rush, all innish (but OP obviously) 3) Marine/Tank/Raven push off a 1-1-1 build (predominantly 1 base play strat vs P) 4) Bio drops off 1 base into mass stim timing 80+ food attack 5) 3-1-2 Marine/Banshee/Raven 10 minute push etc. Virtually every single T strat that has developed has revolved around strong 1 base play that is suppose to outright kill or cripple your opponent. Not many Ts have ever developed strong macro style of play except STC and Jinro, and STC no longer plays anymore. Your reasoning for the strats being semi-allin, is because the macro mechanic of P and Z are stronger in a macro game, zerg can produce up to double the workers terran can, which makes mule's static +4.5 workers rather lackluster. Same goes for toss, their ability to produce up to 22% more workers(with all CB on probes), forces terran to be offensive race, in a straight up macro game this means, either playing ridiculously efficiently or more commonly, with insane harassment(be it hellions/reapers/banshee for worker roast, nexus/hatch sniping etc). You can see this quite clearly if you compare TvT with TvP/TvZ(You can also see this if you compare PvT with PvZ, where on one side, toss is perfectly fine chilling and expanding vs timing attacks/offensive play). There's no real pressure there for the terran to make his move, he's just got to not be caught out of position and not fall behind on bases.
The reasoning for this semi-all in style of play is that T players are lazy because the game allowed them to be lazy. Once Blizzard brought T in line within reason with the other races, all of a sudden everyone is crying "I HAVE NO FUCKING LATE GAME BECAUSE I NEVER PRACTICED IT WAAAAAAGH".
PainUser, STC, and Jinro all have/had extremely strong late game macro oriented style of play and can beat the best of the best (STC taking out top Korean players like Tester, FD at the time, and Jinro and PainUser beating some top premier players of their own like Nony).
Yes, your late game mechanic is weaker then the other races, but you also have much stronger base defense then the other races, along with the best harass in the game (until way late in the game where P has researched Storm/Amulet/Warp Prism techs and has DTs on hand too).
Comparatively speaking, T has the WORST late game options out of all the races in BW also, and yet no one ever whines there now do they? Late game TvZ you're still fighting Ultra/Defiler/Lurkers/Cracklings with M&M/Tank half the time with Sci Vessel mainly as a support unit.
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Personally, I don't think the matchup is particularly imbalanced, but I'm glad I'm not the only one having trouble with it. I don't pretend to be the best player, but I know a couple of things. First: mech builds are not viable in this matchup (actually I think mass air is more viable than mech). Second: none of these "harassment options" are worth bitching about. The counters to any of them don't actually involve you building anything different, you just have to scout and reposition units you already have. if you're losing to hellion drops (because you're an idiot), reapers (because your shit is in a big pile at your choke), or banshees (because you're too greedy to build an observer) you need to play safer.
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You may undertsand the terran point of view, but you don't understand the protoss one.
Blue Flame hellion drop is really effective on some maps where the only place you can see the dropship before it drops is the distance between the ledge and your minerals.
Alot of protoss only get a Robo Bay to build an observer then don't use it for the rest of the game. That observer cost us 250 minerals and 200 gaz.
I think Terran should consider more Blue Flame Hellion as part of their army late game since they are so good at killing zealots. Also, dropping to kill the Templar Archive then attacking negates the effect of Khadaryan Amulet.
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EPT
