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On December 31 2010 03:47 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2010 02:58 Antisocialmunky wrote:On December 31 2010 02:09 xbankx wrote:On December 31 2010 02:03 Anomandaris wrote:Spoiler of thh kapersky tournament + Show Spoiler +ogsTOP (T) taking out easily ogsMC (P) 4-0 in a bo7. in the 4th game ogsTOP made storm look bad  Yea Top did what terran is supposed to do in the matchup. Expand a lot since you have minerals from mules. Attack in a lot of location at same time to abuse Protoss immobility. Game 4 is an good example of how to play macro terran against storm. Even though storm is good, it takes long to get and before he gets it terran is free to take expo as long as he take in consideration of colossus timing pushes(Top went like 10 vikings every game). He was consistently 30 food ahead of toss at mid/late game. MC played solid games though 3 and 4. His games kind of reminds me of mine when I play protoss. Always behind on bases because you pay so much on teching. Terran tend to lose to toss in long games because they just want to macro and get in big battles. Of course that favors toss when all toss does have is a deathball with aoes. This has been in line with my observations. Terran's #1 priority in TvP is getting up his third base. I'm not convinced that the 4th is needed ASAP but Terran cannot function two basing. Top vs MC spoiler: + Show Spoiler +Game 4: TOP made it indeed look ridiculously EASY to take multiple bases, to have the supply-advantage and mass production capabilities ready just when toss gets to the amulet. This aside, the funny thing is, game 4 (the only one where Top allowed MC a lategame and didn't crush him in midgame) never looked toss-favoured at all, even after MC had colossi/templar. Although I'm obviously biased, game 4 looked quite balanced in lategame...TOP just had marauder/ghost/medivac/viking, but constantly attacked at multiple locations and (ab)used the higher HP of marauders compared to marines vs storm-tech. I'm really sorry to say this, but TOP didn't do anything fancy at all. Just 2 different attacking groups who constantly did damage and were reinforced instantly due to TOP having the economical advantage that he gained/took at the time where toss couldn't do anything (insufficient colossi-count and templar tech not done yet.)
He was the better player and won very well deserved, but he didn't have to play "significantly" better as if to overcome any sorts of supposed "imbalance". Opposed to the performance of eg. fruitdealer in GSL 1 where it was obvious that he had to play like double as good AND get lucky to overcome certain timings. Yo anyone got links to these games?
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yes 1 rax expand is a safe build to carry out. You will have 3 rax with tech labs when its 6 min mark to defend a 4 gate and enough MM to deal with blink stalkers by 7 min. If you noticed TOP strategy is survival, he get combat shields upgrade before stim so he can survive the first few minutes of all in and void ray strat. IMO combat shields is better than stim in early game because dps of terran > protoss even without stim in small groups. Your units however have to survive as protoss warp gate tech kicks in, protoss production will be 1.5 times of terran.
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T v P is balanced, like all other matches. It is just up to the skill and timing........I am not pro , I am just a platinum terran and Im telling you--my worst match is TvZ not v P.
What is best in platinum I think is to put early pressure on protoss and always get a fast 2ghosts for emp or a raven for PDD
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just lost a game, after holding off a 4 gate zealot all in (LOL) and then killing his expansion once, failing to get up his ramp... eventually a big battle 126 supply to 105 (P) he attacks into 2 bunkers, i have 5 vikings on a cliff out of reach of stalkers hitting collosi and he win s the battle. guy had 30 apm I had 80...TvP is not balanced unless you are ridiculously good.
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TOP v MC
+ Show Spoiler +the TOP vs MC games were played on the NA server from korea and as toss its very important to place perfect FF and storms, ect..
I pretty sure that if they played on the korean server the result wouldnt be so onesided
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On December 31 2010 17:57 Irre wrote:
just lost a game, after holding off a 4 gate zealot all in (LOL) and then killing his expansion once, failing to get up his ramp... eventually a big battle 126 supply to 105 (P) he attacks into 2 bunkers, i have 5 vikings on a cliff out of reach of stalkers hitting collosi and he win s the battle. guy had 30 apm I had 80...TvP is not balanced unless you are ridiculously good.
You hold a 4gate and kill an expo, but you're only 20supply ahead? Sounds like your macro wasnt flawless at the very least, or you made some major blunders.
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On December 31 2010 17:57 Irre wrote:
just lost a game, after holding off a 4 gate zealot all in (LOL) and then killing his expansion once, failing to get up his ramp... eventually a big battle 126 supply to 105 (P) he attacks into 2 bunkers, i have 5 vikings on a cliff out of reach of stalkers hitting collosi and he win s the battle. guy had 30 apm I had 80...TvP is not balanced unless you are ridiculously good.
So he went all-in... yet had a expansion? You crushed his no-tech build and denied him an expansion, and yet only had 126 supply by the time he got out multiple colossi? Sounds like a case of both players being terrible rather than anything to do with balance.
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On December 31 2010 04:48 metalsonic wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2010 22:22 Ikkuh wrote:
in a state of the game podcast incontrol said that once protoss gets the amulet upgrade they have a99% chance to win the game. Nony also said in one of those podcasts that tankplay is easily shutdown by immortalzealotstalker (ht). Ive seen other terrans post which were around 3100 pts saying that once protoss gets ht with amulet they almost always win because carrier+ht is incredibly hard to beat. Another very strong thing is getting immortals as protoss whenyou have +3 attack upgrades because they will 2shot marauders then, so the immortalht zealot combination is almost impossible to beat in lategame (thats what servyoa posted on gamereplays.org Protoss don't have a 99% chance to win with amulet . Simply no , maybe invest some ghosts to instant un avoidable EMP rounds who drain all psi energy and 100 shields ? EMP is much stronger then storm is for the fact that u can only hurt marauders by 20 hp and that terran can stim away while medivacs are healing . Protoss vs Terran in late game is definitely Terran favored if the terran haves bunkers and planetary fortress in his base . U can't win vs that . You can never break a terran bunker defense of 4 + bunkers since that will require the worst late game unit : immortals and stalkers . On Lost Temple Terran is favored heavely . You Simply can not win a late game vs terran ever on that map . Since if u kill his army when he pushes out he haves an army ready at the ramp u can not see and he snipes away all ur HT and ur done for . Lost Temple is one of those maps that favors terran to the point that the map should be removed . In every blizzard game Lost Temple has been the worst and most imbalanced maps of them all . In warcraft 3 Human had allmost an automatic win vs Undead and Orc and this was when the game was just out and with the final balance . The map was ridiculles and Blizzard really sucks with their stupid LT map pools . Why do people on TL says the map is so great ????? TL;DR Terrans are favored late game vs protoss on maps that feature a ramp where they can shoot ur units when u try to break their base . Planetary fortress on the expo may be risky , but it is undefeatable .
Bunkers against protoss in late game made me LOL, it's not like they are outranged by colossi or void rays, not at all.... and you are practically immobile with bunkers aswell and how many bunkers are you planning on building so that they come at least close to being cost effective? 20?
I just can't believe you really came up with this idea, building bunkers, that is absolutely hilarious.
And the same goes for a planetary fortress, just get some void rays or colossus with thermal lance and it's done.
Protoss have a whole variety of different strategies or counters available and are definitely the stronger race in lategame.
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On December 31 2010 23:19 drky wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2010 04:48 metalsonic wrote:On December 30 2010 22:22 Ikkuh wrote:
in a state of the game podcast incontrol said that once protoss gets the amulet upgrade they have a99% chance to win the game. Nony also said in one of those podcasts that tankplay is easily shutdown by immortalzealotstalker (ht). Ive seen other terrans post which were around 3100 pts saying that once protoss gets ht with amulet they almost always win because carrier+ht is incredibly hard to beat. Another very strong thing is getting immortals as protoss whenyou have +3 attack upgrades because they will 2shot marauders then, so the immortalht zealot combination is almost impossible to beat in lategame (thats what servyoa posted on gamereplays.org Protoss don't have a 99% chance to win with amulet . Simply no , maybe invest some ghosts to instant un avoidable EMP rounds who drain all psi energy and 100 shields ? EMP is much stronger then storm is for the fact that u can only hurt marauders by 20 hp and that terran can stim away while medivacs are healing . Protoss vs Terran in late game is definitely Terran favored if the terran haves bunkers and planetary fortress in his base . U can't win vs that . You can never break a terran bunker defense of 4 + bunkers since that will require the worst late game unit : immortals and stalkers . On Lost Temple Terran is favored heavely . You Simply can not win a late game vs terran ever on that map . Since if u kill his army when he pushes out he haves an army ready at the ramp u can not see and he snipes away all ur HT and ur done for . Lost Temple is one of those maps that favors terran to the point that the map should be removed . In every blizzard game Lost Temple has been the worst and most imbalanced maps of them all . In warcraft 3 Human had allmost an automatic win vs Undead and Orc and this was when the game was just out and with the final balance . The map was ridiculles and Blizzard really sucks with their stupid LT map pools . Why do people on TL says the map is so great ????? TL;DR Terrans are favored late game vs protoss on maps that feature a ramp where they can shoot ur units when u try to break their base . Planetary fortress on the expo may be risky , but it is undefeatable . Bunkers against protoss in late game made me LOL, it's not like they are outranged by colossi or void rays, not at all.... and you are practically immobile with bunkers aswell and how many bunkers are you planning on building so that they come at least close to being cost effective? 20? I just can't believe you really came up with this idea, building bunkers, that is absolutely hilarious. And the same goes for a planetary fortress, just get some void rays or colossus with thermal lance and it's done. Protoss have a whole variety of different strategies or counters available and are definitely the stronger race in lategame.
I agree on bunkers not being useful late game, but planetary fortresses with some turrets are sometimes useful to protect your tankline.
And please watch top vs mc game 4. Protoss vs terran looks balanced late game
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As a protoss player I've had some great success with ht play. Especially when it wasn't yet used in gsl or elsewhere as often as now. Terrans counter it a bit better now imo.
I see the amulet as a problem. Too easy to warp in a few templars and immediately cast storms.
But heavy ht play is countered pretty nicely with multiple ghosts. When terran makes only one or two ghosts, it's too easy to feedback them both and win the battle. I usually lose if terran has like 7 ghosts when attacking. EMP is aoe spell with longer range than feedback.
My balance suggestion: Nerf emp somehow, maybe 1 range less, and the templar could warp in with 60 or 65 energy even with the amulet. Opinions?
Other than that, pvt is quite balanced, terran late game is not good as toss's though.
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I like ghosts, but not because they are counter to HT's but because they deal damage, so HP taken by Storms and by EMP is kinda even.
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People keep saying that its toss late game, its not the late game its the late game army, if you keep trading an armies with the P your not gonna lose because P needs to beat your army with an significant advantage (which they are more and more as you both reach 200/200). The only thin that I hate about TvP late game is when you've got an advantage and you want to press it against P on an expansion its so hard because of the insta warp in with storms to defend. What top did so well in the 4th game against MC+ Show Spoiler +He kept P's army count low and when it wasnt he dropped in many places so the P had to split up his army which made top's army more efficient but tbh MC didnt play like normal, he was complaining about lag and you could tell there was lag so its not the greatest example but the principle still stands.
These are the only two slight imbalances but its not like so game breaking like people on this thread seem to think.
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hmm i just watched those MC vs TOP games and all i gotta say is in game 4:
+ Show Spoiler +something just didn't feel right man. Like fur realz
but i mean if that was completely legit and both were playing TOP of their game. hehe
+ Show Spoiler +Then i guess you can just mass marauders and ghosts and suicide them till you win. I for some reason was under the impression that marauders were losing their edge but guess they are pretty darn cheap.
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Uhh. OGSmc made some stupid mistakes. He wasn't playing his best for sure.
Game 1: Shouldn't have opted for base trade. Terran won by a technicality.
Game 2: He expanded vs a timing attack all-in w/ scvs.
Game 3: Bad void ray control, allowed terran to 3 base vs his 2 base, threw inneffective forcefields
Game 4: Was massively outmacro'd in the following ways:
13 minute mark
-Terran had 10 worker advantage after harassment and extra expo
-Terran had gold base up, protoss hadn't started his 3rd at all
-Protoss built a lot of sentries after mentioning that they didn't do well on the server
19 minute mark
Terran player 16 workers ahead
Terran player was 1-1, protoss was 0-0-0
The Terran player then kept distracting ogsMC and killing things like pylons and nexii and absolutely destroying his macro. MC got outplayed, this had nothing to do with the viability of the forces. None of MCs units ever went across the middle of the map (aside from his observers) and Top was constantly 1 base ahead and harassing everywhere
In addition, they were playing on the Laggy US server from Korea... MC was prepared to do his normal domination, but went on a landslide of losses after the first one, and then some poor decision making.
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Tons of people are saying protoss is overpowered, I can only attest to the opposite. Sure I play in the noobiest league there is but I find it's impossible to hold off a terran attack any time before I have templars, collossi or other tech,a nd even then if he has tech i cant match his production capability, even with 4 or more gates. Only when you let the game get to 200/200 is protoss really op. And at the pro level, the best of the best, terran mops the floor with protoss often enough.
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For what it's worth, I'd like to see marauders slightly nerfed (more gas cost? More expensive conc shell upgrade?) and HTs also nerfed a bit. Maybe amulet doesn't give instant storm but just a bonus to starting energy so storm is available faster?
On January 07 2011 16:45 HavokTheorem wrote:
Tons of people are saying protoss is overpowered, I can only attest to the opposite. Sure I play in the noobiest league there is but I find it's impossible to hold off a terran attack any time before I have templars, collossi or other tech,
Respectfully: this undermines your ability to speak to the state of the matchup in a pretty significant way.
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On January 07 2011 16:56 Bonham wrote:
For what it's worth, I'd like to see marauders slightly nerfed (more gas cost? More expensive conc shell upgrade?) and HTs also nerfed a bit. Maybe amulet doesn't give instant storm but just a bonus to starting energy so storm is available faster?
I'm with you there. I personally think that marauders are so effective in TvP that they completely overshadow other units. Why use a thor if i can get more mobile marauders instead ?
However, TvP is just one matchup. Nerfing the marauder in any way without looking at the roach will create immense problems for TvZ (mass roach is already quite strong).
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EPT
