EPTIf you are having trouble with this matchup, the best thing you can do is get involved in some brainstorming discussion looking at ways to adapt to the current metagame and counter the most prevalent tactics. Don't both discussing it here though; this thread's currently nothing but idiots posting balance whines and flaming other posters, and probably should have been closed long ago.
TvP – A Terran’s view - Page 32
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Jumbled
1543 Posts
If you are having trouble with this matchup, the best thing you can do is get involved in some brainstorming discussion looking at ways to adapt to the current metagame and counter the most prevalent tactics. Don't both discussing it here though; this thread's currently nothing but idiots posting balance whines and flaming other posters, and probably should have been closed long ago. | ||
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GinDo
3327 Posts
On December 30 2010 12:05 metalsonic wrote: Ghosts are really effective vs HT that and the HT is the most immobile unit after the tank in the entire game . You only need 5 units and scout with scans . You need the following units : Marine Marauder Medivac Vikings and Ghost . You need to add vikings and ghosts based on the number of collosus u see and the numer of HT and remember nothing can kill u on the high ground in LT try to search for spots with a ramp when fighting protoss . Protoss can never never win when ur fighting with a decent army in ur base especially with the planetary fortress . You can micro out of storms and only take about 20 damage with ur units with practice making HT useless ( unless ur on a suck spot on the map , but just split to avoid damage and use ghosts EMP's ) . Terran is clearly favored since ghosts are more mobile then HT and do more damage overall then HT can . The 100 shields drained is ridiculles and cancels any immortal play , carriers are a joke since vikings can kite them endlessly if the terran ever faced the expensive 120 second build time fat useless things . Carrier and Battlecruiser are the worst unit by far . Mothership is also really bad but atleast u can do a cheese strategy with it . ( u can't with other units ) . Storms kill EMP doesn't. Also remember that Terran units aren't as HP heavy as Protoss units. 1 Storm kills a Marine. Vikings can't kite Carriers. The range of a carrier is 14. | ||
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zhouzhou
Canada138 Posts
I'm a random player for what it's worth. I'm going to blame both sides, but these aren't set in stone. But at least you'll have an idea of where I stand though. In terms of concepts, warping seems to be the imbalance. You can bring your units in anywhere there's a pylon or warp prism, almost instantly, AND have the production time reduced by 10 seconds. I thought the warpgate would've had a trade-off with the gateway. For example, warpgates having a +10 second increase in build time. The opposite of its current effect. It'd make sense wouldn't it? You get your units immediately and possibly anywhere on the map, in exchange for a longer cooldown time. At least gateways would then have a purpose. Protoss units are far too mobile. Their slower units can be warped in from anywhere as well. A colossus is like a reaper and a siege tank combined. Most protoss players don't do this, but did you know you can bring a warp prism with your main army to give yourself a huge advantage? Looking on the other side, Thors and Siege tanks just don't seem to be very viable in the late game. They are just too immobile. Siege tanks specifically, they die so easily to everything. So you end up going with bio and starport tech units. And protoss are now learning how to deal with it relatively easy. A lot of terrans don't go hellions against templar tech, don't know why, considering how effective they are. They're mineral only, so you have lots of gas for ravens to detect and armor-killing units. Which you won't necessarily need since their HTs cost so much gas. You'll only ever see zealots accompany them. | ||
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Deleted User 124618
1142 Posts
In terms of concepts, warping seems to be the imbalance. You can bring your units in anywhere there's a pylon or warp prism, almost instantly, AND have the production time reduced by 10 seconds. I thought the warpgate would've had a trade-off with the gateway. For example, warpgates having a +10 second increase in build time. The opposite of its current effect. It'd make sense wouldn't it? You get your units immediately and possibly anywhere on the map, in exchange for a longer cooldown time. At least gateways would then have a purpose. Does inability to queue count as a "trade-off"? It means it takes extra attention to make the units: if you forget it for 10 seconds your units have been delayed by 10 seconds. Also, reinforcements mid-combat or other mid-army-manouvering requires you to switch your focus to making units. That may mean going back to your base if you have no nearby pylons. Mid-combat. I have lost games because I messed up the unit building by warping them in at wrong time (in other words: I switched to warping them in at wrong time), warping them in too late or at wrong positions. I always forget production cycles. Usually less in early game, but the more combat-intensive the game is and the longer the game lasts the more likely it is that I forget to build units simply because I can't queue them and build them when I see it fit and have time for it. Also means that protoss has to be very aware of the warp gate cooldowns, it becomes more fun if they are out-of-sync with each other. | ||
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XothermeK
United Arab Emirates245 Posts
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Deathmanbob
United States2356 Posts
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Deathmanbob
United States2356 Posts
On December 30 2010 12:26 GinDo wrote: Storms kill EMP doesn't. Also remember that Terran units aren't as HP heavy as Protoss units. 1 Storm kills a Marine. Emp hurts a toss army for 50% of its total hp, 3 storms could get every unit you had to 50% life you would see how much that can hurt. Emp may not kill directly but it hurts a whole lot  | ||
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fearus
China2164 Posts
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link0
United States1071 Posts
Toss units on average have much higher HP than terran units, and shields regenerate very quickly, which is why Storm is much more devastating than EMP will ever be. | ||
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Black Gun
Germany4482 Posts
basically, 2-3 ghosts are always worth it lategame for their dam, but unless u can catch many templars before they throw down their storms, more ghosts than needed for "area coverage of his unit ball" are a waste of money and supply. and this is very very hard to achieve against spread out templar, in particular it is very hard to predict the amount of templar he is gonna have. as u have to preemptively build the ghosts if u want to emp all templar before they storm. | ||
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Raiznhell
Canada786 Posts
On December 30 2010 16:12 Black Gun wrote: also keep in mind that emp doesnt stack at all. 2 storms equals roughly twice as much ownage. a second emp on units that had been emp´d some seconds before is not doing anything. so emp, while doing impressive dam figures, does not kill and can only be used for damage once on each unit whereas storm kills and can be used several times in a row on the same ball of units. basically, 2-3 ghosts are always worth it lategame for their dam, but unless u can catch many templars before they throw down their storms, more ghosts than needed for "area coverage of his unit ball" are a waste of money and supply. and this is very very hard to achieve against spread out templar, in particular it is very hard to predict the amount of templar he is gonna have. as u have to preemptively build the ghosts if u want to emp all templar before they storm. I hate the typical EMP vs Storm debate but this is actually a good point. But screw ghosts i just use my hellions to roast HTs. even if you do nail a few HTs with EMP they can still become Archons which may be bad units but they can take a punch and act a really good damage takers. why not just kill the bastards. | ||
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giuocob
United States149 Posts
I really think mech is the future of TvP late game, with a smattering of marines for extra DPS/anti-air, and of course ghosts. Good enough hellion control should protect the marines from storms, and the tanks clean up everything except for chargelots, which get roasted by hellions anyway. Banshees and ravens make this even scarier. | ||
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Raiznhell
Canada786 Posts
On December 30 2010 16:35 giuocob wrote: Why are so many terrans discounting hellions? They're extremely effective versus HT in any mix, and a direct counter to zealot/templar, one of the most common endgame tactics. I can only remember three times on the ladder I've seen someone use this, and I got rolled every time. Those things are so damn fast - they run up behind my army, one shot all my HT, and run away laughing and blaring loud obnoxious music out the window. They're hardy enough to soak up storms and ensure that most if not all of them will reach their target, unless the protoss has been extremely mindful defending them. I really think mech is the future of TvP late game, with a smattering of marines for extra DPS/anti-air, and of course ghosts. Good enough hellion control should protect the marines from storms, and the tanks clean up everything except for chargelots, which get roasted by hellions anyway. Banshees and ravens make this even scarier. I've been doing a lot of Mech vs protoss and i just made a thread with 10 of my reps in it doin mech and while i think it's very very strong it's not the future. those early stim/banshee/raven timings are just too good not to do. Maybe if some miracle patch made the tank 100 gas or made them do 55 vs armored instead of 50 so you only had to wait for +1 instead of +2 weapons to actually start being really potent. But I'm not waiting on any patches Imma stick with my Mech as is but doing anything with banshees and ghosts is usually too costly and going plain mech just works out better unless you scout that he is going SUPER heavy immortal then cutting some tanks for ghosts is probably wise. | ||
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Thezzy
Netherlands2117 Posts
On December 30 2010 16:35 giuocob wrote: Why are so many terrans discounting hellions? They're extremely effective versus HT in any mix, and a direct counter to zealot/templar, one of the most common endgame tactics. I can only remember three times on the ladder I've seen someone use this, and I got rolled every time. Those things are so damn fast - they run up behind my army, one shot all my HT, and run away laughing and blaring loud obnoxious music out the window. They're hardy enough to soak up storms and ensure that most if not all of them will reach their target, unless the protoss has been extremely mindful defending them. I really think mech is the future of TvP late game, with a smattering of marines for extra DPS/anti-air, and of course ghosts. Good enough hellion control should protect the marines from storms, and the tanks clean up everything except for chargelots, which get roasted by hellions anyway. Banshees and ravens make this even scarier. Chargelots devastate Mech and Hellions even with Blue Flame can't kill them quickly enough. 150 HP charging on a Tank means a dead tank as the other tanks will shoot at the Chargelot, splash damaging the Tank with bonused damage. Thors end up getting surrounded and dying quite quickly afer that. Hellions with Blue Flame and +3 still need 6 shots to kill an unupgraded Chargelot. They may be fast but with only 90 health they still die quite quickly. Not that I've come across pure Chargelot/Storm builds, there are usually plenty of Sentries and Stalkers in the mix to shoot any Hellions. | ||
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kNightLite
United States408 Posts
1. He didn't apply any pressure on the protoss, which let them tech with impunity. Back when you could count on protoss going robo, bio was very safe, but now that the matchup is becoming more varied pure MMM isn't as dependable as it once was. 2. He wasted OC energy on scans when he really needed mules to counteract chronoprobes. 3. He wasted resources on 4 vikings that were basically giant paperweights because the toss had no air units. They took out one observer, which was nice, but that advantage was not built upon by using cloak. I guess you could say they discouraged collosi production...but that doesn't help very much because the templar alternative hurt more. 4. He kept his entire army bunched up in one tight ball, making it vulnerable to AoE, instead of attacking on multiple fronts and spreading out concussive shell shots 5. No ghosts I don't know how people can go bio in TvP without ghosts. I worked this out a couple days ago. Production Cost Ghost: Requires Supply Depot(100/0/30)+Barracks(150/0/60)+Techlab(50/25/25)+Ghost Academy(150/50/40) = 450/75/155. HT: Requires Pylon(100/0/25)+Gateway(150/0/65)+CyberCore(150/0/50)+Twilight Council(150/100/50)+Templar Archives(150/200/50) = 700/300/240 Difference: 250/225/85 in favor of Ghost Upgrade Cost Ghost: Moebis Reactor, 100/100/80. HT: Warpgate tech (50/50/140)+Psionic Storm (200/200/110)+Amulet(150/150/100) = 400/400/350. If everything is chronoboosted, total time to research is lowered to ~233. Difference: 300/300/153 in favor of Ghost. <---assumes chronoboost Unit Cost Ghost: (150/150/40/2) HT Unit: (50/150/45/2) <--- assumes warpgate Difference: 100/0/-5/0 in favor of High Templar Primary Spell EMP: 75 energy, 100 instant shield damage vs everything but Stalkers&Dark Templars(80%), Phoenix (60%), Zealots (50%), High Templars (40%). Sentries (40%), Probes(20%). Also deals 100 instant energy damage, making it 100% more efficient vs HT, Sentry, Mothership, . Removes Cloak and Hullucination for 10 sec. 10 range, 2 radius, no cooldown. Psi Storm: 75 energy, 80 damage over 4 sec vs everything. 9 range, 1.5 radius, 3 sec cooldown. Difference: Psi storm is superior vs workers, EMP is superior vs casters and high speed units (I'd say around speed > 2.5) If you're going bio vs T, all you really need is 200 gas. You don't even need the +25 energy like HTs do simply because you can get them out much faster to build up energy. | ||
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Tastinggood
28 Posts
On December 30 2010 11:27 Blyadischa wrote: 1. I'm not staying equal in army size with him, I have 35% more food than him. 2. By saying I need to stop him from getting tech, and not seeing that HE WON THE BATTLE NOT BECAUSE OF GOOD PLAY, ARMY SIZE, OR WHATEVER, BUT ONLY STORM, you're admitting that storm is imbalanced. seriously your graph shows nothing at all. better post a replay edit my bad i bumped this terrible whine thread, it should get locked | ||
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drky
United States8 Posts
On December 30 2010 09:03 ThorIsHere wrote: Protoss get to warp in because otherwise they are incredibly immobile. Ever try to defend against mutas with stalkers? Watching them go in single file through your buildings while you lose 30 probes is one of the saddest things to see in Starcraft 2. Oh, what's that? They're attacking my third? Let me grab my zealots, immortals, colossi, and high templars. I'll be there in... *checks watch* ... about an hour. And unlike terran, our bases don't defend themselves for a low, low cost. Every race has some advantage over other races for which they trade off with disadvantages. Yeah because a planetary fortress can totally shoot air units.... oh wait it can't. | ||
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Stallion
New Zealand67 Posts
good luck hope you terrans find something cool so i can evolve my gameplay too :D gl hf :D | ||
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Lurk
Germany359 Posts
On December 30 2010 19:31 kNightLite wrote: I only had time to watch the first replay...but it seemed to me that the terran showed poor decision making there. 1. He didn't apply any pressure on the protoss, which let them tech with impunity. Back when you could count on protoss going robo, bio was very safe, but now that the matchup is becoming more varied pure MMM isn't as dependable as it once was. 2. He wasted OC energy on scans when he really needed mules to counteract chronoprobes. 3. He wasted resources on 4 vikings that were basically giant paperweights because the toss had no air units. They took out one observer, which was nice, but that advantage was not built upon by using cloak. I guess you could say they discouraged collosi production...but that doesn't help very much because the templar alternative hurt more. 4. He kept his entire army bunched up in one tight ball, making it vulnerable to AoE, instead of attacking on multiple fronts and spreading out concussive shell shots 5. No ghosts I don't know how people can go bio in TvP without ghosts. I worked this out a couple days ago. Production Cost Ghost: Requires Supply Depot(100/0/30)+Barracks(150/0/60)+Techlab(50/25/25)+Ghost Academy(150/50/40) = 450/75/155. HT: Requires Pylon(100/0/25)+Gateway(150/0/65)+CyberCore(150/0/50)+Twilight Council(150/100/50)+Templar Archives(150/200/50) = 700/300/240 Difference: 250/225/85 in favor of Ghost Upgrade Cost Ghost: Moebis Reactor, 100/100/80. HT: Warpgate tech (50/50/140)+Psionic Storm (200/200/110)+Amulet(150/150/100) = 400/400/350. If everything is chronoboosted, total time to research is lowered to ~233. Difference: 300/300/153 in favor of Ghost. <---assumes chronoboost Unit Cost Ghost: (150/150/40/2) HT Unit: (50/150/45/2) <--- assumes warpgate Difference: 100/0/-5/0 in favor of High Templar Primary Spell EMP: 75 energy, 100 instant shield damage vs everything but Stalkers&Dark Templars(80%), Phoenix (60%), Zealots (50%), High Templars (40%). Sentries (40%), Probes(20%). Also deals 100 instant energy damage, making it 100% more efficient vs HT, Sentry, Mothership, . Removes Cloak and Hullucination for 10 sec. 10 range, 2 radius, no cooldown. Psi Storm: 75 energy, 80 damage over 4 sec vs everything. 9 range, 1.5 radius, 3 sec cooldown. Difference: Psi storm is superior vs workers, EMP is superior vs casters and high speed units (I'd say around speed > 2.5) If you're going bio vs T, all you really need is 200 gas. You don't even need the +25 energy like HTs do simply because you can get them out much faster to build up energy. Theorycrafting can only tell you so much. You're completely neglecting the dynamics of the matchup itself as well as several key aspects. You cannot just simply compare the costs and say ghosts are cheaper to tech too and can be out earlier. While this is true in inself, the dynamics of the matchup doesn't allow you to do that. Going for early ghosts is NOT a safe opening/bo. Anything from a 4gate to standard xgate/robo can be very difficult or impossible to deal with with this build. Going for an early ghost is a very serious investment and it WILL delay other key techs like stim or starport tech. You can deal with early HTs without ghosts, but not having stim or starport tech in time will autolose you a lot of games. In a similar fashion to protoss having to have robo tech at a certain time (to counteract cloakshees), terran needs to have stim and starport tech at a certain time (to deal with mass gateway and collossus respectively). Going for ghosts in the midgame is almost always a good decision. However, you're probably better off getting 2-3 ghosts than a whole army of them. Because unlike templars, there is a critical mass of ghosts after which point they don't bring additional benefit. 2-3 emps is often sufficient to emp the bulk of the protoss army. I've often had the problem that i got too many ghosts (8-10) and then i didn't have enough units to actually kill the shieldless protoss army (yes, i've lost 200:200 supply fights vs protoss with him having no shields or energy). So please, to all of those protoss claiming "you had too few ghosts" or "of course, if i have 10 temps and you only have 3 ghosts, i'll win - you need to get an equal amount of ghosts". It doesn't work that way. Unlike the templar for protoss, the ghost is not a main army unit for terran but rather a support unit (albeit a really powerful and efficient one). However, just like getting too many vikings can cost you the game, getting too many ghosts will do the same. I was never in a situation where i needed more than 4, maybe 5 ghosts. The fundamental problem is that you have to hit the toss army with emp BEFORE the actual battle. This is often very difficult to do and requires and obscene amount of awareness and game sense. Of course protoss players will argue along the lines of "how hard can it be to hit a protoss ball with a 2 radius emp with a cloaked unit" but this is actually quite difficult to time correctly and it is also the main reason why ghosts are rarely used to their full potential. If i emp the toss army too early, he can just walk away and regen shields, energy and warp in fresh units. If i emp the army too late, he will get off a few storms before i shut down the templars. And this is assuming that i even get my ghosts into a good position near the protoss army before the battle. TL;DR: Ghosts ARE a very good unit and can be obtained quite easily and quickly. However, ghosts are a SUPPORT unit and you should never get too many of them. Also, using ghosts to their full potential is very difficult and requires a lot of micro, awareness and game sense (something you cannot expect from <3k players). | ||
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cilinder007
Slovenia7251 Posts
On December 30 2010 21:26 Stallion wrote: hi all im a protoss player on NA atm 2400 diamond and from the protoss perspective ive found that terran pushes early are common and to be be frank with sentrys are easy to defend i find it difficult when the terran doesnt attack early giving me the advantage and choses to sit back and macro hard with tanks mixed with banshees and a raven then maruders with ghosts with marines filling in the rest ive found that my win rate against terran bio ball is without bragging about 80% where if the terran sits back macros and gets mech it becomes a lot more even its hard for me as a toss player generally cos banshees in an army have sick dps with and tanks u dnt want to run into until charge comes around and a few immortals to take the first hits. with the thor added in too void rays also become hard to use and high templar dnt do as much damage as u like. i would recommend for any terran who is seriously having trouble with protoss to try to create a mech build too ( not a thor rush or banshee rush tho cos they are just as easy to beat) but one where u can defend comfortably expand and macro hard i know from experience when that first wave doesnt come i get behind in bases and find it really hard to deal with lots of tanks thors banshees ravens in the end i try to feedback the raven/banshees charge and immortal blast the ground and phenox/stalker the air units (depending on gas). i hope this has helped in some way good luck hope you terrans find something cool so i can evolve my gameplay too :D gl hf :Dvoid rays own thors so bad its not even funny, a thor takes like 30 shots to kill a VR and a void can kill a thor in like what 2 seconds ? | ||
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