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On December 30 2010 01:14 Tastinggood wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 30 2010 00:19 Setev wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2010 23:06 ensis wrote:On December 29 2010 22:16 Lurk wrote:On December 29 2010 21:43 ensis wrote:
and no, thors dont die to anything if you take everything into account. the canon, possible emps and only a few hellions will grill any zealots.
thors are also amazing supplywise. they only cost 6 suppley which is 3 zealots. the only real good response to thors are air units. voids will own them even more after the next patch and also bcs will eventually lose to void+ht. Have you actually ever tried to use thors against protoss (other than in the 1-2 thor push) ? Well, i have, and i tell you it just doesn't work if the protoss either gets a lot of lots, a couple immortals or void rays. Even Collosi work quite well against thors due to their superior range and speed. Also notice that if you get thors, you lose every bit of mobility you have. You can no longer dodge storms as if you do so, your thors lag behind and get easily picked off. And neither the strike cannon, nor emp and hellions are an adequate answer help your thors against zealots. The cannon only hits one unit (and if you do it to a zealot, you do less dps than with your autoattack), emp only takes away 1/3 of the zealots hp and hellions are only good against zealots if you can kite them (which you can't since your thors are too slow). The only good option you have to protect your thors against zealots are marines (which die instantly to storm or collossi). Also note that by going heavy thor, you cannot afford to get as much vikings, medivacs or ghosts as you might need. If you think that going thors against toss lategame is viable, please provide a replay which actually shows this. I can only tell you that i have tried numerous times and failed miserably. I actually won a few times with mech in TvP lategame, but with tanks, never with thors. no i havent tried thors myself because im toss^^ immortals just die to the canon, pls no discussion, yes, you can lift them up with phoenices but srsly, that wont happen in a real game, if he does, hes gosu. and viking thor is gasintensive, but not more than voidrays, its pretty even. and you dont need the hellions to burn every zealot to crisps intantly, but they help. i cant help you out with a replay, because i stopped using hts ages ago, after i met some terrans, that really knew how to hit emps. and collossi only have 2 range more and do pretty much no damage to thors. you can just look at the thor stats and be amazed. just compare him to the marauder: thor rauder (stimmed) 300 200 100 25 ----> 3-4rauders 47 dps 30-40 vs light 60-80 vs armored range 7 6 400hp 300-400 massive not massive (forcefields!) thors are less affected by storms or guardian shields, can walk down forcefields, have the canon (which is better than concussive imo) and dont lose dps during the fight like 4 marauders, because they die one after another, dont need to be stimmed. again, this is pure theorie, but i dont see, why its better to make marauders. yes, they can kite and are faster. i mean, marauders suck even more vs zealots and they can be trapped by forcefields, which is the other toss spell terrans are complaining about. and really, if you dont like the thor, learn to micro your ghosts. if you dont make a mistake, you win every battle vs templars, and even if your rauder catch one storm, just retreat and let your medis do the job. and again, if thors dont work for you, try tanks as you said. you can be pretty confident, that there is a counter, and propably even a few, just try stuff out. Just stop it. Listen to what Lurk says, he is right and I agree with him as a terran player. We all respect your opinion on Thors, but we think that your opinion is flawed as marauders are really better than Thors in reality, due to the mobility synergy in SC2 terran. You admitted that you didn't play Terran and never used a Thor before, so your statistics and theory craft shouldn't take precedent over our tried and true advice. (Not to belittle you, just pointing this out so that newbies don't get mislead). Plus, the lines in bold - it doesn't matter that all your HTs got EMPed, a decent Toss will warp in 3 more HTs with amulets into the battlefield (with nearby pylon/warp prism) and voila! 3 storms available while Terran are stuck on 0 energy for further EMPs. Storms don't have to do maximum damage - they just need to chase your army out of position and let the conventional units pawn the terran. Forcefields will greatly help in this aspect. Ghosts can only lessen the impact of Toss spells (less storms and less FF being casted), not totally cancel it. why would terran be stuck at 0 energy when toss warps in 3 more hts? better bring some extra ghosts next time then So often I see terrans being greedy when it comes to ghosts vs templars.
1) Ghost are more expensive
2) They need to walk to battle
3) Toss can go Chargelot Templar, meaning all his gas is to Templar
4) Terran has to make Medivacs which are 100 a pop and die to FeedBack
5) HT warp in is instant and Ghost Feedback is annoying
The fact that you said to just bring more Ghost shows how ignorant you are to the match up. Its not whether you should have brought more, its whether or not you could have brought more, and alot of times you cant. Not to mention Ghosts take forever to make and for every Ghost thats 1 less key Marauder. Since ghost take AGES to Train.
Like in BW Bio once that Templar Splash kicks in is useless(Without Gosu Micro). Blizz needs to buff the Mech options.
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well, those 100 minerals more should be that bad.
every medivac that gets feedbacked is one storm and propably even one ht less.
academy + upgrade 250 150
council + archives + both grades 650 650
the tech is way more expansive, you just have to add ghosts before i have 10+ templars.
nc to feedbacking ghosts.
if i have pure zealots, just kite me, my templars wont be able to reach you.
and toss also needs gas for other stuff.
and no toss always has perfect spread.
all in all, i think terran can get a solid ghost count, if you still dont believe me, check the rep of servyoa vs mana, 2000 overgas, so.....
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On December 30 2010 02:38 ensis wrote:
well, those 100 minerals more should be that bad.
every medivac that gets feedbacked is one storm and propably even one ht less.
academy + upgrade 250 150
council + archives + both grades 650 650
the tech is way more expansive, you just have to add ghosts before i have 10+ templars.
nc to feedbacking ghosts.
if i have pure zealots, just kite me, my templars wont be able to reach you.
and toss also needs gas for other stuff.
and no toss always has perfect spread.
all in all, i think terran can get a solid ghost count, if you still dont believe me, check the rep of servyoa vs mana, 2000 overgas, so.....
Regardless of perfect spread or not, hell, you can have all HTs in battle die, you simply need to warp in more.
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On December 30 2010 02:06 ensis wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2010 01:18 dust7 wrote:
so, no one here acknowledging that blizzard already said P>T in lategame because of storms? maybe, and this is just anothter possible answer, the reason why protoss wins the lategame, is because terran always is at a disadvantage reaching the endstage, because they went for some midgame attack.
or maybe, just maybe protoss should finally admit that their lategame is superior. keep in mind no terran here is complaining about the the winratios of the matchup themselfes.
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On December 30 2010 02:59 dust7 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2010 02:06 ensis wrote:On December 30 2010 01:18 dust7 wrote:
so, no one here acknowledging that blizzard already said P>T in lategame because of storms? maybe, and this is just anothter possible answer, the reason why protoss wins the lategame, is because terran always is at a disadvantage reaching the endstage, because they went for some midgame attack. or maybe, just maybe protoss should finally admit that their lategame is superior. keep in mind no terran here is complaining about the the winratios of the matchup themselfes.
Yup, exactly. Win Ratios is even because of Stim rushes that quickly Pound the Toss, but L8 game Protoss is hard to beat especially with storm.
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I played both races to about 2.5k diamond in NA(mid level). I will say early game terran seems to much favored against toss as long as you survive to stim. I do lots of stimmed timing attacks, but late game when I play terran as soon as storm comes up its destruction left and right.
As for terran players in this thread, I suggest you play toss. It would feel like every game you have economic disadvantage from the start. Scared to move out. Watch zealot getting kited all day long. A small forcefield mistake can end the game. Sometimes you feel like even though terran can pressure so much, have a stronger army, and still gets an expo out first.
As for the toss players, just try to play terran vs toss late game. It is just so hard versus storm. Thor is not the answer they get owned by speed zealot+storm. EMP is good but definitely not nearly as good as storm. As if you miss 2-3 temps, its going to be raining storms.
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On December 30 2010 02:06 ensis wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2010 01:18 dust7 wrote:
so, no one here acknowledging that blizzard already said P>T in lategame because of storms? maybe, and this is just anothter possible answer, the reason why protoss wins the lategame, is because terran always is at a disadvantage reaching the endstage, because they went for some midgame attack.
![[image loading]](http://i55.tinypic.com/343g6es.jpg)
I'm red, opponent is blue. That is the army value chart.
See that huge advantage I have going into late game?
See how I've had that advantage the whole game?
Yeah, that arrow points to storms, not even good ones, I was even playing bio/mech and all he had to do was just storm more when I dodged a storm, and storm more on my mech to kill it.
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As a random player I whole heartly agree that the amulet upgrade makes HT a bit OP imo.I remember Incontrol saying that the HT amulet upgrade is like building the World Wonder in AOE. lol.
I personally would like to see the meta shift to heavy heavy blue flame hellion based armies.
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On December 30 2010 03:11 Blyadischa wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2010 02:06 ensis wrote:On December 30 2010 01:18 dust7 wrote:
so, no one here acknowledging that blizzard already said P>T in lategame because of storms? maybe, and this is just anothter possible answer, the reason why protoss wins the lategame, is because terran always is at a disadvantage reaching the endstage, because they went for some midgame attack. I'm red, opponent is blue. That is the army value chart. See that huge advantage I have going into late game? See how I've had that advantage the whole game? Yeah, that arrow points to storms, not even good ones, I was even playing bio/mech and all he had to do was just storm more when I dodged a storm, and storm more on my mech to kill it.
Notice how you and your opponent's lines stay parallel after your big army build up around 800 - always about the same distance from each other. If you are both macroing, but you are pumping army and he's teching, you need to do more damage so that your advantage keeps growing. If your opponent is playing defensively and getting higher tech, you're losing advantage by just staying equal in army size with them.
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Well, following this thread for a while now, i see many Terrans from different servers having the same troubles with Protoss. While there is a risk that we are biaised, this thread would be long dead if there was no truth in the fact that Terran has a difficult time with protoss.
The early game T nerfs just shone a light on different issues that even Blizz's balance team acknowledges and uses as an example.
While trying to find a way to answer the strength of P late game, i think we should keep an eye on good arguments that were pointed already. I second those :
_Chargelots are a very efficient mineral dump
_Warping system gives protoss full space advantage which is HUGE (ever read Art of War ?)
_Terrans are stuck with MMM / MMG due to mech inefficiency for numerous reasons (mobility again ?)
_Terran air gets owned by feedback alone ( > raven, pdd, banshee, BC) + obs which are usual tech pattern for protoss anyways
_Ghosts are mildly cost efficient and warping system renders them obsolete if the terran has had no economic advantage earlier
I am in no way saying those statements are true, its just the ones that keep coming back and that I experienced myself too.
Truth be told, skill ceiling is also a huge factor, i'd really like to see that "pro thread section" with only 3k+ players access. Eventhough I think we would still see biaised comments, those could be backed with replays and experience, something not many of us here have granted (anyone can say " I'am a 2k9 P and PVT is T favored" ).
Only blizz can change the game, but what we can and should do as of now is change the way we play the cards we're dealt. My only trouble is that I can't seem to do so 
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you basically have to use your early bio advantage to get some kind of eco advantage in the mid/lategame. once you add thors and ghosts to your bio ball you can take on temps pretty well. Tanks are not the answer
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On December 30 2010 03:22 fearus wrote:
As a random player I whole heartly agree that the amulet upgrade makes HT a bit OP imo.I remember Incontrol saying that the HT amulet upgrade is like building the World Wonder in AOE. lol.
I personally would like to see the meta shift to heavy heavy blue flame hellion based armies.
The problem with hellions is how easily they get caught by Chargelots.  For a Go Kart you sure are Slow. Not to mention the Delay for each shot allows Zealots to catch up.
Long live the Vulture. Spider-mines for life.
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On December 30 2010 02:59 dust7 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2010 02:06 ensis wrote:On December 30 2010 01:18 dust7 wrote:
so, no one here acknowledging that blizzard already said P>T in lategame because of storms? maybe, and this is just anothter possible answer, the reason why protoss wins the lategame, is because terran always is at a disadvantage reaching the endstage, because they went for some midgame attack. or maybe, just maybe protoss should finally admit that their lategame is superior. keep in mind no terran here is complaining about the the winratios of the matchup themselfes.
oh, really good argument, thats definitely your point. perfect reasoning -.-
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its blizzards point and the reasoning has been done over the last 30 pages.
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On December 30 2010 03:35 dekuschrub wrote:
you basically have to use your early bio advantage to get some kind of eco advantage in the mid/lategame. once you add thors and ghosts to your bio ball you can take on temps pretty well. Tanks are not the answer
ever see Jinro vs Socke at MLG... Socke went HT and Jinro went tanks and ghosts with his bio and ultimately won.
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On December 30 2010 02:15 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2010 01:14 Tastinggood wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 30 2010 00:19 Setev wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2010 23:06 ensis wrote:On December 29 2010 22:16 Lurk wrote:On December 29 2010 21:43 ensis wrote:
and no, thors dont die to anything if you take everything into account. the canon, possible emps and only a few hellions will grill any zealots.
thors are also amazing supplywise. they only cost 6 suppley which is 3 zealots. the only real good response to thors are air units. voids will own them even more after the next patch and also bcs will eventually lose to void+ht. Have you actually ever tried to use thors against protoss (other than in the 1-2 thor push) ? Well, i have, and i tell you it just doesn't work if the protoss either gets a lot of lots, a couple immortals or void rays. Even Collosi work quite well against thors due to their superior range and speed. Also notice that if you get thors, you lose every bit of mobility you have. You can no longer dodge storms as if you do so, your thors lag behind and get easily picked off. And neither the strike cannon, nor emp and hellions are an adequate answer help your thors against zealots. The cannon only hits one unit (and if you do it to a zealot, you do less dps than with your autoattack), emp only takes away 1/3 of the zealots hp and hellions are only good against zealots if you can kite them (which you can't since your thors are too slow). The only good option you have to protect your thors against zealots are marines (which die instantly to storm or collossi). Also note that by going heavy thor, you cannot afford to get as much vikings, medivacs or ghosts as you might need. If you think that going thors against toss lategame is viable, please provide a replay which actually shows this. I can only tell you that i have tried numerous times and failed miserably. I actually won a few times with mech in TvP lategame, but with tanks, never with thors. no i havent tried thors myself because im toss^^ immortals just die to the canon, pls no discussion, yes, you can lift them up with phoenices but srsly, that wont happen in a real game, if he does, hes gosu. and viking thor is gasintensive, but not more than voidrays, its pretty even. and you dont need the hellions to burn every zealot to crisps intantly, but they help. i cant help you out with a replay, because i stopped using hts ages ago, after i met some terrans, that really knew how to hit emps. and collossi only have 2 range more and do pretty much no damage to thors. you can just look at the thor stats and be amazed. just compare him to the marauder: thor rauder (stimmed) 300 200 100 25 ----> 3-4rauders 47 dps 30-40 vs light 60-80 vs armored range 7 6 400hp 300-400 massive not massive (forcefields!) thors are less affected by storms or guardian shields, can walk down forcefields, have the canon (which is better than concussive imo) and dont lose dps during the fight like 4 marauders, because they die one after another, dont need to be stimmed. again, this is pure theorie, but i dont see, why its better to make marauders. yes, they can kite and are faster. i mean, marauders suck even more vs zealots and they can be trapped by forcefields, which is the other toss spell terrans are complaining about. and really, if you dont like the thor, learn to micro your ghosts. if you dont make a mistake, you win every battle vs templars, and even if your rauder catch one storm, just retreat and let your medis do the job. and again, if thors dont work for you, try tanks as you said. you can be pretty confident, that there is a counter, and propably even a few, just try stuff out. Just stop it. Listen to what Lurk says, he is right and I agree with him as a terran player. We all respect your opinion on Thors, but we think that your opinion is flawed as marauders are really better than Thors in reality, due to the mobility synergy in SC2 terran. You admitted that you didn't play Terran and never used a Thor before, so your statistics and theory craft shouldn't take precedent over our tried and true advice. (Not to belittle you, just pointing this out so that newbies don't get mislead). Plus, the lines in bold - it doesn't matter that all your HTs got EMPed, a decent Toss will warp in 3 more HTs with amulets into the battlefield (with nearby pylon/warp prism) and voila! 3 storms available while Terran are stuck on 0 energy for further EMPs. Storms don't have to do maximum damage - they just need to chase your army out of position and let the conventional units pawn the terran. Forcefields will greatly help in this aspect. Ghosts can only lessen the impact of Toss spells (less storms and less FF being casted), not totally cancel it. why would terran be stuck at 0 energy when toss warps in 3 more hts? better bring some extra ghosts next time then So often I see terrans being greedy when it comes to ghosts vs templars. 1) Ghost are more expensive 2) They need to walk to battle 3) Toss can go Chargelot Templar, meaning all his gas is to Templar 4) Terran has to make Medivacs which are 100 a pop and die to FeedBack 5) HT warp in is instant and Ghost Feedback is annoying The fact that you said to just bring more Ghost shows how ignorant you are to the match up. Its not whether you should have brought more, its whether or not you could have brought more, and alot of times you cant. Not to mention Ghosts take forever to make and for every Ghost thats 1 less key Marauder. Since ghost take AGES to Train. Like in BW Bio once that Templar Splash kicks in is useless(Without Gosu Micro). Blizz needs to buff the Mech options.
The fact that they need to walk is the reason you overcompensate in the first place.
A lot of terran say they lose even when they emp every HT because of new warp ins/amulet etc.
So why not bring more ghosts so you are able to deal with the new warpins.
First you say toss can go chargelot templar and later you are talking about missing that key marauder. This doesnt make sense. Marauders suck against chargelots. A ghost would most certainly do more damage or prevent more damage
Ghosts take 40 seconds to build, HT warp cd is 45 seconds.
HT warp in is nearly instant and if your ghosts get feedbacked you have been outplayed.
Ghosts cost 100 minerals more but late game gas is usualy the limiting factor. And this 100 extra mineral cost can easily pay for itself if you hit more than 1 HT or some sentries.
And yes a lot of times you could have brought extra ghosts.
Also it is quite obvious that you have to take advantage of the ghosts range advantage.
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you know... some terran players are actually quite good at the matchup and understand it. Maybe instead of whining about balance you should spend the same amount of time studying Jinro, Nama, or Sjow
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jesus people, stop complaining about warpins so much. maybe actually kill pylons that are around the map? like duh? i see way too many complaints about warpins -.-
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On December 30 2010 04:27 travis wrote:
jesus people, stop complaining about warpins so much. maybe actually kill pylons that are around the map? like duh? i see way too many complaints about warpins -.-
the more you complain about it, the more likely blizzard will remove it from the game.
LOL yea right.
why the hell are terrans bitching about pvt just mass mauraders (jokes)
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Sjow actually said tvp is protoss favored too...
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EPT
