On December 29 2010 18:09 eatpraylove wrote: In case anyone hasn't listened to this, check out 11:20 - 13:05. Browder & Cooper were all over the early Terran/late Protoss issue at Blizzcon. I wonder what their latest take is.
thank you for the link. here's the tl;dr for people too lazy to watch the whole thing:
Browder about PvT:
- Terran very powerful in the early game, especially with stim timing pushes - in many cases Protoss "a little strong" in the lategame - if the Terrans can hold out it seems like a combination of Colossi and/or even more important psistorm gives the Protoss the advantage - even with a balanced win ratio in diamond there might be a more fundamental design problem here - we could have a situation very soon where technically the win ratio is 50:50 but its all about whether Terran can win in the first 12 minutes or not, and if they don't win, the protoss will win - we could say the win ratio is 50:50 and thats good enough, but thats not the game we want to make - we will look at stim balance affecting the early game and storm/warpin balance affecting the late game
On December 29 2010 20:51 ensis wrote: i only watched one rep, but i think the other two were played in a similar fashion. servyoa (?) just couldnt fight the templars, in the last fight he had one ghost and 2000 overgas in the first he got 3 ghosts feedbacked by one lonely templar, he could have just scanned and sniped/emped the ht. there are 3 counters to templars. and by counters i mean units that dont melt in 3 secs. thors battlecruisers and maybe tanks, but those are kinda special. thors and battlecruisers are just aoe proof. if you have enough of them, the protoss cant just storm you to death. right now thors and bcs have no freaking costeffective counter. voids are kinda nice, but you know what a starport can also produce. if you dont like those three, get ghosts. they require some micro, but srsly not more than feedback and spreading. emp has more range than feedback check liquipedia on this before you comment. IF YOUR GHOSTS GET FEEDBACKED ITS YOUR OWN FUCKING FAULT. in some way, this is even proven. we all know, that templars rape the shit out of a terran bio army, so why are people building collossi? they certainly arent stronger, because if collossi were even stronger than hts there would be over 40%protoss in top 200 and not 8terrans in top 10 of korea. if there is no appropriate response to templars, why isnt every protoss playing a ht strat? if you cant find any relief in any of those options, quit the game. you cant win with pure mmm vs templars.
yeap, whole P army is just templars wandering around. not like he can spam 2X3X2=12 zealots of 2 base in 2 cycles, stomping the 2-3 thors you might get in the same timeframe.
tanks? zealots with legs?
BC? by the time you get a nice mass of 4 or more, youre already dead. unless P sucks. and counting on your opponent to suck so you have a chance to win is not game balance.
only thing thats ruins late game TvP is that amulet upgrade that should be removed. ability to warp ANYWHERE in 3 seconds a unit that can take out other 10, that's whats wrong.
templars are nice to play with and against, but you cant have 1000 apm and be a fucking oracle to have ghosts already placed all over the map just to snipe shit down
On December 29 2010 20:51 ensis wrote:IF YOUR GHOSTS GET FEEDBACKED ITS YOUR OWN FUCKING FAULT.
In the same fashion i could say "if your templars get emp'd it's your own damn fault". EMP isn't a counter to HTs anymore than feedback is to ghosts. It's just a matter of who hits first. Although ghosts might have the advantage due to cloak and +1 range, HTs don't die to emp, ghosts can die to feedback. EMP'd templars can still morph to archons, while a feedbacked ghosts is either dead or an expensive marine.
Ghosts are a way for terran to deal with templars, they are NOT a counter, much less a hard counter. The only units that could be considered a counter to templars (as they don't die to storm or feedback) are the thor and maybe the bc (since they still have a shitton of hp after feedback) and the siege tank (although they still die pretty fast to storm and can't move out).
On December 29 2010 20:51 ensis wrote:right now thors and bcs have no freaking costeffective counter. voids are kinda nice, but you know what a starport can also produce.
I'm not entirely sure about bcs but thors die to pretty much everything besides sentries and stalkers. 4 zealots kill one thor, 1 void ray kills a thor, that's not cost effective for you ? Also notice that voids do pretty well against ALL of the units that might be considered a counter to HTs (thor, bc, tank).
idk if bcs are the answer to TvP lategame. Although they do pretty well in a decicive battle, any decent protoss will abuse your laughable mobility all day.
emp is aoe, so if you hit with the edge you have a bonus of 3 range. but even if we ignore this. if the ghosts gets feedbacked, he missed his emp, its as simple as that. if a templar gets emped, he had no chance of dodging or anything else. a templar can only feedback if you miss your emp, its really that simple. and even if you dont agree on that. yes, if we ignore those two points, the one who is faster has the advantage, they call it skill, nothing wrong with this. and no, thors dont die to anything if you take everything into account. the canon, possible emps and only a few hellions will grill any zealots. thors are also amazing supplywise. they only cost 6 suppley which is 3 zealots. the only real good response to thors are air units. voids will own them even more after the next patch and also bcs will eventually lose to void+ht. the problem are vikings. with their insane range and dps, they kill voids insanely fast, especially with the flux vanes propably removed for whatever reason. the problem with terran are not single units, its their synergie. and whether you like it or not, if you dont want to die to templars, either cheese or get one of those proposed units in good number. if your thors got massacred, your bcs vanished in the skies and your ghosts exploded of headage, then there will be a problem with balance, but honestly, we will never reach that point, i think. oh and for that templars dont die argument....well, a templar CANT RUN! if they are out of energy they die, its as simple as that, or they become archons, which are quite cool actually, but there still is no more templar. i just had another idea, why not use the terrans insane defensive capabilities? get a few bunkers and maybe even a pf just for defense, a few tanks and some barracks and depots. with turrets and sensor towers, you should be really fine defensewise. mech or ghosts or both, these are your options, find out what works best for you.
Why is everyone comparing emp to feedback? Thats just wrong. As Terran you dont want to emp high templars. You want to emp high templars before they get their storms off. Thats a huge difference. Storming the terran bioball is much easier than to emp every single high templar.
I have been playing on a high competitive level since the beta days and im high diamond from phase 1 beta end to now.
The short PvT MU story is as follows:
Mid phase 1 beta(i dont know what happened before that,didnt have a beta key): Terran goes MMM or MMG protoss either tries to tech to templar and gets roflstomped at early game or makes mass gateway army+some immortals and gets roflstomped later when bioball reaches critical mas(but before storm is finished). There were some pretty big upsets(like when marine build time got nerfed and immortals still were made pretty fast) but they were fixed in a timely manner.
Because of the massive roflstomp from 1 base allins with MM or MMG toss tried to find alternate ways to play. 7 range voidrays did the job pretty damn well, and actually gave P many wins.
Ofc many "oldschool" BW strategies were there also: eg 4 gate and DT rush
End of phase 1, whole phase 2: The above continues to happen, but some terrans like QXC(after the buffs on mech) discover that tanks+marines or hellions work pretty good vs toss. Massive ammounts of toss rage incoming as toss couldnt scout easily if a 3 gate MMM or Marine-tank push was coming and prepare for it. Ofc phoenixes worked vs tanks, but that just made the fight even,i.e phoenix didnt give toss army an advantage, it just gave them a chance to win if they microed better.
But suddenly, some P players like tester found out that even if vikings own hard collosi, P could still get away with making collosi(we all know why,wont discuss that further). Meanwhile,strategies like 3 gate 1 stargate phoenix began to be perfected
Release up to today:
2 base collosi into 3 base collo-templar is pretty much standard for macro games, and voidray +2/3 gate 1 base push is also very strong. T still gets MMM or MMG
I know i have some pretty big holes in the above statement(ofc i cant cover 10 months of sc2 history in ~200 words) but the point i wanna make is this:
Since the start of the beta P have major trouble beating T. We have tried infinite ammounts of strategies to defeat terrans,and always adapted! Right now PvT may seem P favoured but thats all because T didnt change starts at all during the beta/release: They started with MM and they still make MM 80% of the games. Sure,they learned some pretty cool 1 base timing pushes-allins(thor-marine, banshee-raven-marine etc) but thats about it.
On December 29 2010 21:43 ensis wrote: and no, thors dont die to anything if you take everything into account. the canon, possible emps and only a few hellions will grill any zealots. thors are also amazing supplywise. they only cost 6 suppley which is 3 zealots. the only real good response to thors are air units. voids will own them even more after the next patch and also bcs will eventually lose to void+ht.
Have you actually ever tried to use thors against protoss (other than in the 1-2 thor push) ? Well, i have, and i tell you it just doesn't work if the protoss either gets a lot of lots, a couple immortals or void rays. Even Collosi work quite well against thors due to their superior range and speed. Also notice that if you get thors, you lose every bit of mobility you have. You can no longer dodge storms as if you do so, your thors lag behind and get easily picked off.
And neither the strike cannon, nor emp and hellions are an adequate answer help your thors against zealots. The cannon only hits one unit (and if you do it to a zealot, you do less dps than with your autoattack), emp only takes away 1/3 of the zealots hp and hellions are only good against zealots if you can kite them (which you can't since your thors are too slow). The only good option you have to protect your thors against zealots are marines (which die instantly to storm or collossi).
Also note that by going heavy thor, you cannot afford to get as much vikings, medivacs or ghosts as you might need.
If you think that going thors against toss lategame is viable, please provide a replay which actually shows this. I can only tell you that i have tried numerous times and failed miserably. I actually won a few times with mech in TvP lategame, but with tanks, never with thors.
i got such enormous problems as terran against protoss ... if they decide to play a macro game .. i win ... if they decide to use their early game well i die 100% ... if i fast expand and they do 3gate voidray ... i am so FUCKING Dead every single game. I play Terran at 2700 Rating on the European servers. i really think i should completetly stop fast expanding against protoss and play completely safe 1base all ins xD! Its so funny, nobody used voids .. now they got nerfed again ... and they own me up xD
On December 29 2010 21:43 ensis wrote: and no, thors dont die to anything if you take everything into account. the canon, possible emps and only a few hellions will grill any zealots. thors are also amazing supplywise. they only cost 6 suppley which is 3 zealots. the only real good response to thors are air units. voids will own them even more after the next patch and also bcs will eventually lose to void+ht.
Have you actually ever tried to use thors against protoss (other than in the 1-2 thor push) ? Well, i have, and i tell you it just doesn't work if the protoss either gets a lot of lots, a couple immortals or void rays. Even Collosi work quite well against thors due to their superior range and speed. Also notice that if you get thors, you lose every bit of mobility you have. You can no longer dodge storms as if you do so, your thors lag behind and get easily picked off.
And neither the strike cannon, nor emp and hellions are an adequate answer help your thors against zealots. The cannon only hits one unit (and if you do it to a zealot, you do less dps than with your autoattack), emp only takes away 1/3 of the zealots hp and hellions are only good against zealots if you can kite them (which you can't since your thors are too slow). The only good option you have to protect your thors against zealots are marines (which die instantly to storm or collossi).
Also note that by going heavy thor, you cannot afford to get as much vikings, medivacs or ghosts as you might need.
If you think that going thors against toss lategame is viable, please provide a replay which actually shows this. I can only tell you that i have tried numerous times and failed miserably. I actually won a few times with mech in TvP lategame, but with tanks, never with thors.
no i havent tried thors myself because im toss^^ immortals just die to the canon, pls no discussion, yes, you can lift them up with phoenices but srsly, that wont happen in a real game, if he does, hes gosu. and viking thor is gasintensive, but not more than voidrays, its pretty even. and you dont need the hellions to burn every zealot to crisps intantly, but they help. i cant help you out with a replay, because i stopped using hts ages ago, after i met some terrans, that really knew how to hit emps. and collossi only have 2 range more and do pretty much no damage to thors. you can just look at the thor stats and be amazed. just compare him to the marauder: thor rauder (stimmed) 300 200 100 25 ----> 3-4rauders 47 dps 30-40 vs light 60-80 vs armored range 7 6 400hp 300-400 massive not massive (forcefields!)
thors are less affected by storms or guardian shields, can walk down forcefields, have the canon (which is better than concussive imo) and dont lose dps during the fight like 4 marauders, because they die one after another, dont need to be stimmed.
again, this is pure theorie, but i dont see, why its better to make marauders. yes, they can kite and are faster. i mean, marauders suck even more vs zealots and they can be trapped by forcefields, which is the other toss spell terrans are complaining about.
and really, if you dont like the thor, learn to micro your ghosts. if you dont make a mistake, you win every battle vs templars, and even if your rauder catch one storm, just retreat and let your medis do the job. and again, if thors dont work for you, try tanks as you said. you can be pretty confident, that there is a counter, and propably even a few, just try stuff out.
I know that thors look good IN THEORY, that's why i tried using them for countless games. I learned the hard way though that disadvantages like being slow that don't look big in theory, are actually HUGE in the actual game. Thors work in theory, not in reality. That's why i challenged you to show me a replay of a terran using primarily thors in lategame TvP successfully.
There are things you just don't consider, like that strike cannon vs immortals only works in small engagements, in the lategame thors die too fast to focus fire for the cannon to be used effectively.
Your comparison between thor and rauder shows exactly why marauders are the better choice. they do more dps vs armored and comparable dps to light and have similar hp. What you conveniently didn't mention is that marauders can be healed (thors can, in theory, be repaired, but scvs die instantly to lategame aoe). And that marauders are like 3 times as fast with stim.
I wasn't complaining at all about toss, just pointing out that thors are pretty much useless in lategame TvP.
On December 29 2010 21:43 ensis wrote: and no, thors dont die to anything if you take everything into account. the canon, possible emps and only a few hellions will grill any zealots. thors are also amazing supplywise. they only cost 6 suppley which is 3 zealots. the only real good response to thors are air units. voids will own them even more after the next patch and also bcs will eventually lose to void+ht.
Have you actually ever tried to use thors against protoss (other than in the 1-2 thor push) ? Well, i have, and i tell you it just doesn't work if the protoss either gets a lot of lots, a couple immortals or void rays. Even Collosi work quite well against thors due to their superior range and speed. Also notice that if you get thors, you lose every bit of mobility you have. You can no longer dodge storms as if you do so, your thors lag behind and get easily picked off.
And neither the strike cannon, nor emp and hellions are an adequate answer help your thors against zealots. The cannon only hits one unit (and if you do it to a zealot, you do less dps than with your autoattack), emp only takes away 1/3 of the zealots hp and hellions are only good against zealots if you can kite them (which you can't since your thors are too slow). The only good option you have to protect your thors against zealots are marines (which die instantly to storm or collossi).
Also note that by going heavy thor, you cannot afford to get as much vikings, medivacs or ghosts as you might need.
If you think that going thors against toss lategame is viable, please provide a replay which actually shows this. I can only tell you that i have tried numerous times and failed miserably. I actually won a few times with mech in TvP lategame, but with tanks, never with thors.
no i havent tried thors myself because im toss^^ immortals just die to the canon, pls no discussion, yes, you can lift them up with phoenices but srsly, that wont happen in a real game, if he does, hes gosu. and viking thor is gasintensive, but not more than voidrays, its pretty even. and you dont need the hellions to burn every zealot to crisps intantly, but they help. i cant help you out with a replay, because i stopped using hts ages ago, after i met some terrans, that really knew how to hit emps. and collossi only have 2 range more and do pretty much no damage to thors. you can just look at the thor stats and be amazed. just compare him to the marauder: thor rauder (stimmed) 300 200 100 25 ----> 3-4rauders 47 dps 30-40 vs light 60-80 vs armored range 7 6 400hp 300-400 massive not massive (forcefields!)
thors are less affected by storms or guardian shields, can walk down forcefields, have the canon (which is better than concussive imo) and dont lose dps during the fight like 4 marauders, because they die one after another, dont need to be stimmed.
again, this is pure theorie, but i dont see, why its better to make marauders. yes, they can kite and are faster. i mean, marauders suck even more vs zealots and they can be trapped by forcefields, which is the other toss spell terrans are complaining about.
and really, if you dont like the thor, learn to micro your ghosts. if you dont make a mistake, you win every battle vs templars, and even if your rauder catch one storm, just retreat and let your medis do the job. and again, if thors dont work for you, try tanks as you said. you can be pretty confident, that there is a counter, and propably even a few, just try stuff out.
Just stop it. Listen to what Lurk says, he is right and I agree with him as a terran player. We all respect your opinion on Thors, but we think that your opinion is flawed as marauders are really better than Thors in reality, due to the mobility synergy in SC2 terran.
You admitted that you didn't play Terran and never used a Thor before, so your statistics and theory craft shouldn't take precedent over our tried and true advice. (Not to belittle you, just pointing this out so that newbies don't get mislead).
Plus, the lines in bold - it doesn't matter that all your HTs got EMPed, a decent Toss will warp in 3 more HTs with amulets into the battlefield (with nearby pylon/warp prism) and voila! 3 storms available while Terran are stuck on 0 energy for further EMPs. Storms don't have to do maximum damage - they just need to chase your army out of position and let the conventional units pawn the terran. Forcefields will greatly help in this aspect. Ghosts can only lessen the impact of Toss spells (less storms and less FF being casted), not totally cancel it.
I think we can all agree that Terran late game is mostly hindered by how long it takes to transition from rax units to mech units such as Thors, especially with their slow build time and expensive cost.
The only instance where I saw someone pull off this transition was PainUser vs Nony in the last MLG on LT cross position if I remember correctly.
On December 29 2010 23:06 ensis wrote: and really, if you dont like the thor, learn to micro your ghosts. if you dont make a mistake, you win every battle vs templars, and even if your rauder catch one storm, just retreat and let your medis do the job. and again, if thors dont work for you, try tanks as you said. you can be pretty confident, that there is a counter, and propably even a few, just try stuff out.
you might be ok as protoss but clueless as terran.
miss 1 emp with a ghost/ missmicro ghost and loose it > storms wreck your world
next ghost, assuming energy upgrade is available gets into the battlefield in so you can actually use it in ?!?!?!?
miss 1 storm/missmicro templar and loose it > back away a bit
next templar for you to use into the battlefield available in ?!?!?!?
On December 29 2010 21:43 ensis wrote: and no, thors dont die to anything if you take everything into account. the canon, possible emps and only a few hellions will grill any zealots. thors are also amazing supplywise. they only cost 6 suppley which is 3 zealots. the only real good response to thors are air units. voids will own them even more after the next patch and also bcs will eventually lose to void+ht.
Have you actually ever tried to use thors against protoss (other than in the 1-2 thor push) ? Well, i have, and i tell you it just doesn't work if the protoss either gets a lot of lots, a couple immortals or void rays. Even Collosi work quite well against thors due to their superior range and speed. Also notice that if you get thors, you lose every bit of mobility you have. You can no longer dodge storms as if you do so, your thors lag behind and get easily picked off.
And neither the strike cannon, nor emp and hellions are an adequate answer help your thors against zealots. The cannon only hits one unit (and if you do it to a zealot, you do less dps than with your autoattack), emp only takes away 1/3 of the zealots hp and hellions are only good against zealots if you can kite them (which you can't since your thors are too slow). The only good option you have to protect your thors against zealots are marines (which die instantly to storm or collossi).
Also note that by going heavy thor, you cannot afford to get as much vikings, medivacs or ghosts as you might need.
If you think that going thors against toss lategame is viable, please provide a replay which actually shows this. I can only tell you that i have tried numerous times and failed miserably. I actually won a few times with mech in TvP lategame, but with tanks, never with thors.
no i havent tried thors myself because im toss^^ immortals just die to the canon, pls no discussion, yes, you can lift them up with phoenices but srsly, that wont happen in a real game, if he does, hes gosu. and viking thor is gasintensive, but not more than voidrays, its pretty even. and you dont need the hellions to burn every zealot to crisps intantly, but they help. i cant help you out with a replay, because i stopped using hts ages ago, after i met some terrans, that really knew how to hit emps. and collossi only have 2 range more and do pretty much no damage to thors. you can just look at the thor stats and be amazed. just compare him to the marauder: thor rauder (stimmed) 300 200 100 25 ----> 3-4rauders 47 dps 30-40 vs light 60-80 vs armored range 7 6 400hp 300-400 massive not massive (forcefields!)
thors are less affected by storms or guardian shields, can walk down forcefields, have the canon (which is better than concussive imo) and dont lose dps during the fight like 4 marauders, because they die one after another, dont need to be stimmed.
again, this is pure theorie, but i dont see, why its better to make marauders. yes, they can kite and are faster. i mean, marauders suck even more vs zealots and they can be trapped by forcefields, which is the other toss spell terrans are complaining about.
and really, if you dont like the thor, learn to micro your ghosts. if you dont make a mistake, you win every battle vs templars, and even if your rauder catch one storm, just retreat and let your medis do the job. and again, if thors dont work for you, try tanks as you said. you can be pretty confident, that there is a counter, and propably even a few, just try stuff out.
Just stop it. Listen to what Lurk says, he is right and I agree with him as a terran player. We all respect your opinion on Thors, but we think that your opinion is flawed as marauders are really better than Thors in reality, due to the mobility synergy in SC2 terran.
You admitted that you didn't play Terran and never used a Thor before, so your statistics and theory craft shouldn't take precedent over our tried and true advice. (Not to belittle you, just pointing this out so that newbies don't get mislead).
Plus, the lines in bold - it doesn't matter that all your HTs got EMPed, a decent Toss will warp in 3 more HTs with amulets into the battlefield (with nearby pylon/warp prism) and voila! 3 storms available while Terran are stuck on 0 energy for further EMPs. Storms don't have to do maximum damage - they just need to chase your army out of position and let the conventional units pawn the terran. Forcefields will greatly help in this aspect. Ghosts can only lessen the impact of Toss spells (less storms and less FF being casted), not totally cancel it.
well, if you say, the thor wont cut it, then be it, though i heard of some korean i cant remember the name who is using thors vs p lately with great success, but i might be wrong.
what do you mean by out of position? you cant storm the back of the terran army, and isnt moving back and kiting the zealots what you do anyways? well, because zealots cant really hit kiting marauders and stalkers just suck, storm needs to do substantial damage, thats for sure. if storm doesnt need to do damage, why make templars? and your logic is flawed, you say, if you emp my templars, i just warp in fresh ones and you are out of emp. well, if you only bring 2 ghosts, when i have 10 templars, you will lose, thats right, but thats only because i spend 5times more gas. and then forcefields, which require sentries. just look at the rep im referring to. 2000 overgas. would be plenty of ghost energy wouldnt it? yes, if i spend more gas on templars and you only have one emp per ghost, and if i spread out my templars perfectly, i will get some storms off, but in this scenario your army was just not hightech enough and i played perfectly so i deserve winning.
On December 29 2010 23:06 ensis wrote: and really, if you dont like the thor, learn to micro your ghosts. if you dont make a mistake, you win every battle vs templars, and even if your rauder catch one storm, just retreat and let your medis do the job. and again, if thors dont work for you, try tanks as you said. you can be pretty confident, that there is a counter, and propably even a few, just try stuff out.
you might be ok as protoss but clueless as terran.
miss 1 emp with a ghost/ missmicro ghost and loose it > storms wreck your world
next ghost, assuming energy upgrade is available gets into the battlefield in so you can actually use it in ?!?!?!?
miss 1 storm/missmicro templar and loose it > back away a bit
next templar for you to use into the battlefield available in ?!?!?!?
templar is just ghost in arcade mode
omg lol, you say stimmed marauders cant dodge a storm, but templars hit by concossive shells or zealots can back out??????????
and its just simple, if you dont make a mistake as terran, you win, if you make mistakes protoss will punish you, this gets especially obvious if you take a close look at the racial distribution on the ladder atm. at low levels, terrans make many mistakes and get owned by toss. the better the terrans get, the less they get punished by toss, which explains the over 40% terrans in every 100 fairly well. there is a counter to hts and its propably ghosts at higher levels, at least at mine (~top300 on eu i think) if there wasnt a counter, every protoss would just rape terrans without any problems and thats srsly not the case. the opinion of pros or at least top 100 players would be nice.
On December 29 2010 21:43 ensis wrote: and no, thors dont die to anything if you take everything into account. the canon, possible emps and only a few hellions will grill any zealots. thors are also amazing supplywise. they only cost 6 suppley which is 3 zealots. the only real good response to thors are air units. voids will own them even more after the next patch and also bcs will eventually lose to void+ht.
Have you actually ever tried to use thors against protoss (other than in the 1-2 thor push) ? Well, i have, and i tell you it just doesn't work if the protoss either gets a lot of lots, a couple immortals or void rays. Even Collosi work quite well against thors due to their superior range and speed. Also notice that if you get thors, you lose every bit of mobility you have. You can no longer dodge storms as if you do so, your thors lag behind and get easily picked off.
And neither the strike cannon, nor emp and hellions are an adequate answer help your thors against zealots. The cannon only hits one unit (and if you do it to a zealot, you do less dps than with your autoattack), emp only takes away 1/3 of the zealots hp and hellions are only good against zealots if you can kite them (which you can't since your thors are too slow). The only good option you have to protect your thors against zealots are marines (which die instantly to storm or collossi).
Also note that by going heavy thor, you cannot afford to get as much vikings, medivacs or ghosts as you might need.
If you think that going thors against toss lategame is viable, please provide a replay which actually shows this. I can only tell you that i have tried numerous times and failed miserably. I actually won a few times with mech in TvP lategame, but with tanks, never with thors.
no i havent tried thors myself because im toss^^ immortals just die to the canon, pls no discussion, yes, you can lift them up with phoenices but srsly, that wont happen in a real game, if he does, hes gosu. and viking thor is gasintensive, but not more than voidrays, its pretty even. and you dont need the hellions to burn every zealot to crisps intantly, but they help. i cant help you out with a replay, because i stopped using hts ages ago, after i met some terrans, that really knew how to hit emps. and collossi only have 2 range more and do pretty much no damage to thors. you can just look at the thor stats and be amazed. just compare him to the marauder: thor rauder (stimmed) 300 200 100 25 ----> 3-4rauders 47 dps 30-40 vs light 60-80 vs armored range 7 6 400hp 300-400 massive not massive (forcefields!)
thors are less affected by storms or guardian shields, can walk down forcefields, have the canon (which is better than concussive imo) and dont lose dps during the fight like 4 marauders, because they die one after another, dont need to be stimmed.
again, this is pure theorie, but i dont see, why its better to make marauders. yes, they can kite and are faster. i mean, marauders suck even more vs zealots and they can be trapped by forcefields, which is the other toss spell terrans are complaining about.
and really, if you dont like the thor, learn to micro your ghosts. if you dont make a mistake, you win every battle vs templars, and even if your rauder catch one storm, just retreat and let your medis do the job. and again, if thors dont work for you, try tanks as you said. you can be pretty confident, that there is a counter, and propably even a few, just try stuff out.
Just stop it. Listen to what Lurk says, he is right and I agree with him as a terran player. We all respect your opinion on Thors, but we think that your opinion is flawed as marauders are really better than Thors in reality, due to the mobility synergy in SC2 terran.
You admitted that you didn't play Terran and never used a Thor before, so your statistics and theory craft shouldn't take precedent over our tried and true advice. (Not to belittle you, just pointing this out so that newbies don't get mislead).
Plus, the lines in bold - it doesn't matter that all your HTs got EMPed, a decent Toss will warp in 3 more HTs with amulets into the battlefield (with nearby pylon/warp prism) and voila! 3 storms available while Terran are stuck on 0 energy for further EMPs. Storms don't have to do maximum damage - they just need to chase your army out of position and let the conventional units pawn the terran. Forcefields will greatly help in this aspect. Ghosts can only lessen the impact of Toss spells (less storms and less FF being casted), not totally cancel it.
why would terran be stuck at 0 energy when toss warps in 3 more hts? better bring some extra ghosts next time then So often I see terrans being greedy when it comes to ghosts vs templars.
Because ghosts have to train and walk...it is almost impossible to match their production without overcompensating. Now if we had calldown: ghost or something, then you might have a point.
Well i dont think overcompensating with ghosts vs toss is a bad thing since you can use the unused ghosts for the next set of ht's or use them on sentries, there is always a use for them, they are never wasted imo. You have to make sure that your main army doesnt get too weak ofc.
On December 30 2010 01:18 dust7 wrote: so, no one here acknowledging that blizzard already said P>T in lategame because of storms?
maybe, and this is just anothter possible answer, the reason why protoss wins the lategame, is because terran always is at a disadvantage reaching the endstage, because they went for some midgame attack. if i go 4 gate vs zerg and lose everything expand then and get steamrolled in the midgame, that doesnt mean, that zerg is op in the midgame. same goes for terran. if terran tries to kill my fe and fails, he is behind and will lose in mid/endgame, no prove for imbalance. and browder even said this, almost every terran tries to end it really early, which is also my expirience.
EPT
