EPTTvP – A Terran’s view - Page 27
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BMSupreme
United States24 Posts
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epidGoaty
United States219 Posts
On December 13 2010 23:09 Nakama wrote: Im a 2300 Diamond T and my main Problem in Tvp is the Zealot.I would say that i play a macro oriented style and i often try to get my 3 up as soon as possible normaly it works good 4me( i open with 1/1/1 sjow style) In the beginning the zelot isnt a big Problem, u can kite it easily and a few tanks shut down most agresion toss can throw at u in the early stages of the game. However when the game last longer i simply die to mass zealot. When both have their 3 up it becomes rly hard 4 me tp spend my mins in time and i often end up having 1000 overmins and 0 gas. Marines just die to collosi or ht in this stage of the game and arent cost effective if u dont mangae to kill all high tier units at the beginning of the fight. The toss however can mass whatever high tech unit he wants and spend his overmins very easily into mass zealot, which once they have legs are the best dps u can get in my opinion. So while im having trouble to counter ht or colossi and spend most my resources into ghosts or vikings, my bioball jsut dies to spammed zealots. The only asnwer i can think of are upgraded Hellions, but they didnt work well 4 me the times i tried them. I only win these kind of games if the toss decides to attack me and i win the fight. If he decides to play defensivly i jsut dont stand a chance, every drop just gets shut down casue he can wrap in 5 lots/hts and defend it till reinforcments arrive- Tl;dr: Zealots are a way to good mineral dump + the overhelming strengh of high tier toss units makes it nearly impossible 4 me to kill defensive toss palyers Conclusion: Kill him in 15 min or die Have to disagree. Think you just need to play a little more xD zealots are not the answer, especially late gate. T bio is generally all around greater than gateway units. Go ahead, mention sentries, but dare I bring up how good Ghosts are? Maybe you should start using ghosts, zealots will melt and your cheap marine/rauder army will walk over anything. | ||
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terranghost
United States980 Posts
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BMSupreme
United States24 Posts
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5unrise
New Zealand646 Posts
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Solarii
United States13 Posts
On December 21 2010 13:18 5unrise wrote: I think the reason why protoss players finds PvT to be diificult is because they are comparing the PvT matchup to PvZ. PvZ is just a skewed matchup in which tosses has so many options, and ultimately just need to turtle till they can just a-move their colossi stalker armies and crush zerg unless Z plays prefectly, or go for easy early game wins off one base. In PvT, however, Terran can actually fight back, and Toss has to, to an extent, earn the win. The cruise-control victories that are so easily achieved against zerg cannot be replicated against terran, so protoss complains that T is too strong. From what I can see, it is Terran who are at a disadvantage in this matchup, since toss can just stay alive for 10 minutes and then have a massive tech advantage in the form of storms. The fact that Toss complains about T early game is non-sensical, especially given how many stupid allins and ridiculous lategame composition toss has against zerg Biased much? | ||
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Icekommander
Canada483 Posts
Lets compare Storm to EMP. EMP negates Templar and sentries, and will reduce the health of Protoss units by between a third an a half. For Zealots and stalkers who will be your main targets for most EMPs targeting non energy units, that leaves them with 100 or 80 health left. Storm on the other hand, does 25 damage a second to all units standing in that AOE for 4 seconds. The best a Terran can hope for if his army is stormed, is to take only 25 damage. To Stimmed Marines that is 50% of there health. To stimmed marauders it is a quarter. Medivac's take 1/6th of their total life. The key number here is the marine health. Marines represent the bulk of Terran DPS, you can basically assume that a Terran will lose half his effective strength if you can kill them all. So if you storm, and the Terran's marines take 25 damage, and then you storm the again then they die. If you can get four storms off, you can cover most of the ball that is the Terran army for two seconds. This kills the marines, does half the damage required to kill the maruders, and does a third of the damage needed to kill medivacs. If the Terran can get a larger concave, or has a much larger ball, you might need a couple more storms, but as a general rule four storms can cover the bulk of a Terran army. EMP on the other hand, while it negates the damages done by High Templar and Sentries, does between half and a third of the damage needed to kill stalkers and zealots. So if I can get four EMPs, then my opponent's army is still at full DPS, and I've probably hit about 80% of my opponents shields. The problem ends up being that chargelot/High Templar works very well together for expense purposes, and is incredibly deadly. If I can't get off an EMP in time on the High Templar, then my army dies. If my opponent gets EMPed first, then his army still runs into mine with enough force to do serious damage. I have nightmares about a HT/Chargelot/Sentry force that FFs my army so that it can't retreat. I won't be able to go anywhere resembling narrow. The | ||
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Lurk
Germany359 Posts
On December 21 2010 11:18 Tonyoh wrote: 'sup fellow terrans, Today I experienced a fast ghost build timing push. althought the BO was quite messy, it seemed to be it was quite imbalanced : EMP the sentryball, then you have the stimmed marines and maraudeur that kill every thing, kiting zealot with the help of maraudeur's concusive shell, also you take 10 scvs from your main to help. At the begining of the fight, after emp and stiming, build 2 bunker (just in case) Protoss can't forcefield ramp with help of emp so he won't be able to make templar / colossus. I don't really see any Protoss BO counter this on small maps. For me, stimpack timing push with scv is incredibly strong. I think stimpack should be a T2 technology BUT nerf psionic storm dommage and make it cost 50 instead of 75 would be a good deal to balance. But I have to agree that Late game REALLY suck for terran, now I will veto shakura map which really sucks for terran. I used to do this for some time until i hit a brick wall which simply was protoss figuring out that they shouldn't stack all sentries in one place. This build is essentially an allin as if you don't do sufficient damage with the 1 ghost/2 marauder/ dozen marine stim emp timing push, as you are too far behind in tech and eco to deal with any form of X gate/robo collossus play. | ||
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Rowa
Belgium962 Posts
Just forget it, its worthless against good players. (2500 T here) | ||
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Xeln4g4
Italy1209 Posts
I find it pretty T side ... but don't know ... when u watch oGsMC everything seems so, well i won't say easy, but at least balanced. Edit: i am about Diam. 2200 | ||
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cilinder007
Slovenia7251 Posts
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how2TL
1197 Posts
On December 21 2010 14:17 Icekommander wrote: In my experiance as a Terran player is that I need to play much metter than my opponent or else I get owned. In a toe to toe battle MMM gets raped hard by storm, and unless I can get perfect EMPs to limit my opponents Storms to less than four (will explain that number in a bit), my marines just die, and chareglots clean up my weakend marauders. And then even if I play perfect I can't counter attack, especially on maps like Shakuras where my opponent's natural is up a narrow ramp, where newly warped in Templar storm the living crap out of my already twice stimmed army. All in all I need a significant advantage to take my opponent's army in the field, and an even larger one to tank the damage I take storming his natural (Pun not intended). Lets compare Storm to EMP. EMP negates Templar and sentries, and will reduce the health of Protoss units by between a third an a half. For Zealots and stalkers who will be your main targets for most EMPs targeting non energy units, that leaves them with 100 or 80 health left. Storm on the other hand, does 25 damage a second to all units standing in that AOE for 4 seconds. The best a Terran can hope for if his army is stormed, is to take only 25 damage. To Stimmed Marines that is 50% of there health. To stimmed marauders it is a quarter. Medivac's take 1/6th of their total life. The key number here is the marine health. Marines represent the bulk of Terran DPS, you can basically assume that a Terran will lose half his effective strength if you can kill them all. So if you storm, and the Terran's marines take 25 damage, and then you storm the again then they die. If you can get four storms off, you can cover most of the ball that is the Terran army for two seconds. This kills the marines, does half the damage required to kill the maruders, and does a third of the damage needed to kill medivacs. If the Terran can get a larger concave, or has a much larger ball, you might need a couple more storms, but as a general rule four storms can cover the bulk of a Terran army. EMP on the other hand, while it negates the damages done by High Templar and Sentries, does between half and a third of the damage needed to kill stalkers and zealots. So if I can get four EMPs, then my opponent's army is still at full DPS, and I've probably hit about 80% of my opponents shields. The problem ends up being that chargelot/High Templar works very well together for expense purposes, and is incredibly deadly. If I can't get off an EMP in time on the High Templar, then my army dies. If my opponent gets EMPed first, then his army still runs into mine with enough force to do serious damage. I have nightmares about a HT/Chargelot/Sentry force that FFs my army so that it can't retreat. I won't be able to go anywhere resembling narrow. The Some huge factual errors on your part. Storm does 80 over 4 game seconds with half-second ticks of 10 damage. So not only will you only take 10 damage if your army is stimmed and moves out quickly, that's less than 20% of a Marine's HP when they have Combat Shields (which they should if Toss has Storm), which is then pretty easily healed by some Medivacs. EMP damage is instant upon impact and there's no way to quickly regen shields. Also EMP raidus is 33% bigger than Storm radius. If 4 Storms covers your entire bioball you may want to hotkey your army on >1 hotkey. I'm not good enough to comment on the entire PvT dynamic and if it's balanced, but your fantasy situation is just that, completely untrue. | ||
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Vanidar
United States66 Posts
- do terrans make wrong unit combinations? In 2000 level diamond? Yes, all the time. Moving a bio ball out to attack without Stim or Medivacs is often an ill advised blunder, though I appreciate the free kills. A handful of zealots can absorb a lot of damage while stalkers defeat kite strategies. And if the zealots close(think forcefield, bad micro), that army is dead. On the other hand, I really fear Terran Stargate units - well micro'd vikings can shut down Collossi, raven PDD is amazing, and banshee cloak timings can catch me in a bad state also. | ||
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Effen
227 Posts
Take oGcMC for example. Lets say he is the best PvT player on the planet. He claims a 95% win percentage over all Terrans. This is the problem. Look at other individuals who are the very best at their craft. Tiger Woods would never win anywhere close to 95% of his match play golf matches if playing against other pros. Michael Jordan would never win 95% of his 1 on 1's vs other pros. Loda in his prime from DotA would never win 95% of solo mids. My point is, even tho MC is great and this is not intended to take anything away from him, but if someone is able to obtain a 95% win percentage over the other best players in the world, then the problem is with the underlying contest being significantly favored to that individuals way. There is simply no way that the game can be considered balanced when one player is able to achieve a 95% win rate vs the other best players in the world. Tiger would have to have completely illegal clubs and magnetic golf balls attracted to the hole. Jordan would have to get four points a basket. Loda would have to get free treads to achieve 95% win rate. The matchup is inherently flawed. All of our discussion won't achieve much unless we are talking about how to nerf protoss a bit or how to buff terran a bit to solve the problem. Changing up unit comps or build orders simply isnt the answer. | ||
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Resistentialism
Canada688 Posts
On December 22 2010 08:49 Effen wrote: You're comparing a thousand year old game and a hundred year old game to a 6 month old game. Give the terran pros some time to figure out MC's play. | ||
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Terranium
Turkmenistan144 Posts
On December 22 2010 08:49 Effen wrote: I think its pretty simple. The matchup is just flawed in Protoss' favor. Take oGcMC for example. Lets say he is the best PvT player on the planet. He claims a 95% win percentage over all Terrans. This is the problem. Look at other individuals who are the very best at their craft. Tiger Woods would never win anywhere close to 95% of his match play golf matches if playing against other pros. Michael Jordan would never win 95% of his 1 on 1's vs other pros. Loda in his prime from DotA would never win 95% of solo mids. My point is, even tho MC is great and this is not intended to take anything away from him, but if someone is able to obtain a 95% win percentage over the other best players in the world, then the problem is with the underlying contest being significantly favored to that individuals way. There is simply no way that the game can be considered balanced when one player is able to achieve a 95% win rate vs the other best players in the world. Tiger would have to have completely illegal clubs and magnetic golf balls attracted to the hole. Jordan would have to get four points a basket. Loda would have to get free treads to achieve 95% win rate. The matchup is inherently flawed. All of our discussion won't achieve much unless we are talking about how to nerf protoss a bit or how to buff terran a bit to solve the problem. Changing up unit comps or build orders simply isnt the answer. Flash has a 87% winrate in BW. Yet SC1 is still considered very balanced. I'm confident MC's play style will get countered very soon. | ||
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zerat00l
United States100 Posts
I wouldn't mind all the complaints about how strong storm is if it weren't for the fact that there's an obscenely large timing window where I've spent all of my gas on templar instead of sentries, taken the time and resources to build the council and archives and even thrown down a few templar to start building energy, my storm upgrade is half done and my amulet hasn't even started, wherein if the terran pushes with pretty much anything I immediately lose, especially marines and marauders--the very thing I'm usually trying to kill by going templar, and boy is that ever fun. I seem to recall EG.iNcontroL alluding to this painful window on a SoTG recently, and I completely agree with everything he had to say on the matter. It's such a debilitating and terrifying timing chasm that I'd rather just do some retarded one-base strat like a 4-gate and save myself the pain, but it sure does make me die a little inside every time I feel compelled to do so, as it one-dimensionalizes my play faster than you can say ActionJesuz. So in short, shrug, yeah, templar are good, but getting them going sucks, and it bothers me to see so many people saying that they're over powered or whatever when so many protoss players get crippled or straight up die in the midgame when they dare to try to tech to them. I might feel better about it if the map I was playing on was big enough to feel safe for a sufficient period of time, but when we're all playing on stupid maps like steppes of war I feel like it's almost too dangerous to be worth it at all, and that bothers me a lot; even metolopolis, which is a far cry better than stepps, is fairly small by broodwar standards, but I think I'll save my rant about shitty blizzard map design for another day. | ||
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Offhand
United States1869 Posts
On December 21 2010 08:18 Victim wrote: 4 Marauders and Medivac should do pretty well against 4-6 Zealots or Stalkers (depending on upgrades and such) that are warped in after the drop lands. Especially if they're warped in within range of the terran units. However, the same handful of zealots and Stalkers cleans up the drop handily if they've responded BEFORE the medivac unloads. Lategame PvT is essentially a fight to see who gets the better positioning. Terran has no contest for better positioning in the early game due to how fast you can unlock siege, stim, drops, and harass units. Lategame protoss can actually match this with warp-in/warp prism play. See game 2 of the GSL 3 finals. All MC did was respond and counter-harass with warp gate tech. The 5 collosi at the end were more or less completely irrelevant to the outcome of that game because of how good MC's harass was and how bad Rain's harass was. Rain was harassing at drop locations that toss couldn't have covered early/mid game and continued to do so for far too long. | ||
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rsol
Australia117 Posts
On December 22 2010 08:49 Effen wrote: I think its pretty simple. The matchup is just flawed in Protoss' favor. Take oGcMC for example. Lets say he is the best PvT player on the planet. He claims a 95% win percentage over all Terrans. This is the problem. Look at other individuals who are the very best at their craft. Tiger Woods would never win anywhere close to 95% of his match play golf matches if playing against other pros. Michael Jordan would never win 95% of his 1 on 1's vs other pros. Loda in his prime from DotA would never win 95% of solo mids. My point is, even tho MC is great and this is not intended to take anything away from him, but if someone is able to obtain a 95% win percentage over the other best players in the world, then the problem is with the underlying contest being significantly favored to that individuals way. There is simply no way that the game can be considered balanced when one player is able to achieve a 95% win rate vs the other best players in the world. Tiger would have to have completely illegal clubs and magnetic golf balls attracted to the hole. Jordan would have to get four points a basket. Loda would have to get free treads to achieve 95% win rate. The matchup is inherently flawed. All of our discussion won't achieve much unless we are talking about how to nerf protoss a bit or how to buff terran a bit to solve the problem. Changing up unit comps or build orders simply isnt the answer. If only your capacity to reinvent the TvP matchup was equal to your capacity to make hysterical and ridiculous analogies | ||
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
Not to mention that Tanks just rape alot of shit on the ground that P has. The only cost effective counters P has to Tanks are Chargealots and Immortals, but one or two EMPs means that any Bio with stim will eat through those Chargealots/Immortals real fast. Mech/Bio IMO is what T's should be moving towards, or playing a heavy air style ala NTT with alot of PFs/Tanks/Turrets. I think alot of people are underestimating how strong T defensive harass style is, as I generally lose to that kind of macro style late game as P most of the time. | ||
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