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On December 20 2010 03:15 bluesoup wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2010 02:41 zekie wrote:
i feel like its kind of like TvZ in BW. its a battle of ghosts EMP and HT storms or vikings and colossus. i do feel like the amulet upgrade is VERY VERY strong and makes it really hard to kill a toss. but I think the reason every T complains (besides the amulet) is because its easier for toss to get storms off than it is to get good EMPs. if the Terran does get good EMP's on most of the templay the terran is almost guaranteed to walk over the toss army because zealot/stalker/sentry isn't near as strong without the support of collosus or HT.
just my 2 cents. The current issue with amulet and ghosts is that even if you manage to EMP every last one HT on the field, you achieved nothing. The moment you do that, 3-4 more will just wrap-in just where needed and still storm your entire army. After the engagement, if both of you lost HTs and ghosts (feedback, snipe, etc...), P will spam few more storm ready in HTs in a few seconds. How much time you need to replenish EMP ready ghost ? The game is over by then... Reinforcements are what kills Terran (HTs easy on minerals, zealots easy on gas), as there is no way to reinforce casters and meat shield for Terran as toss can. But this has been said so many times before, in this thread and elsewhere... Simply, ghost is not counter for HTs once amulet is researched. Nothing is, that's why it is imba...
the inability to entirely nullify a tech path and research/time doesn't make a unit imbalanced. that's utterly ridiculous.
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this thread is as epic as the game itself since raynor met fenix.
having this QQ is sign of the developing matchup,
so just discuss more and whine less.
i liked many of the concepts different people constructed here.
some lulz, some insights
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Alright after switching to P for a while I can see that P is definitely imba. It's not as much as I thought, but it's still decently ahead.
I've been in the 2400's as T for a while, unable to improve.
As P I won about half of the 12-15 games that I played on the 2400s ladder w/o knowing any build orders, timings, or having played any P 1v1 games in several months. I can see myself easily advancing to 2600+ in a few weeks as Protoss once I learn the build orders and have more experience dealing with T's attacks.
Strategically, P has the advantage and it feels like the Terran has to seriously outplay P in order to win. For Terran, that means better micro and multi-tasking. Basically, given equal strategic/mechanical skill, a player will probably end up 200+ pts higher on the ladder as P compared to playing T. Having PvZ as almost near free wins also helps.
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The problem with complaining about ht's warping in when a nexus is being attacked is much like complaining about planetary fortresses being repaired by 5 scv's.
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I think bio with heavy air support might be a potential solution. Banshees and vikings are very mobile and counter everything that come out of the robo. You should ideally have more banshees than vikings and make sure to research cloak to get rid of the energy or be quick enough to snipe obs and then cloak. This strat still has many holes like feedback and phoenix but at least you have a chance to outmicro the Protoss. Maybe add thors to deal with the phoenix? I know this is really gas intensive so I guess the ground army will be mostly marines.
On the side note: ppl who say t3 P should rape bio and Terran don't use high tech enough are all idiots and should stop posting all together. High tech units of Terran don't deal AoE and Terran don't have that imba spell of ffs to protect high tech units while they dish out their insane damage. While ffs is necessary for P in the early game they are really imba later on.
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People are turning TvP into a Templar vs. Ghost debate but that's not all there is to the matchup. If a toss blindly gets templar he'll be gas starved to handle non MMM compositions (ie not enough stalkers for BC's). I've found splitting up hellions and banshees for harass on multiple fronts works wonders on slowing down toss economy.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/118148-1v1-terran-protoss-xelnaga-caverns
Non MMM vs. a 2570 P
Where Protoss does a standard FE in collosi tech.
Mistakes on both sides and many times where the game looks pretty even.
Maybe MMM would have been a clearly better choice, but at least at this level that the TvP game still comes down to more positioning and tactics than debates on HT vs. EMP range. Especially if you go a unit composition that discourages/soft counters templar (tanks/bcs/hellions).
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Getting ghosts faster seems to be helping me. Previously, I felt a trapped in a sort of dilemma where I had to apply pressure to gain any advantage, but attacking into a Protoss with ready FFs went badly. Getting Ghosts more quickly means EMP on the sentries can allow a stim attack to engage in more favorable circumstances. Of course, high level P players spread out their sentries to prevent exactly that. With effective usage of Sentries, it doesn't really seem like bio rolls over gateway units.
However, it still feels like the advantage tends to swing towards protoss as the game progresses; unless the Protoss is going with an all in (3 Gate + 1 something). The ability to reinforce with chargelots (so good against everything on the ground...) and HTs from a lot of warp gates means that even if my forces win a major battle, Protoss can still muster up a defense that would kill the damaged remains of my army.
At my rather unimpressive ~2200 level, I think I win many games from outmacroing my opponents, both via holding a FE against one base play, and because many players seem extremely hesitant to take a 3rd base. If that doesn't happen, it feels like an uphill struggle.
Fundamentally, Terran strategy seems less robust in TvP than Protoss play. It's full of Surprise! type attacks (hellion drop, runby, fast banshee, the mid-late mass cloaked banshee that tries to snipe the observer, PDD pushes, etc) that can be stopped easily if foreseen - the danger is that there's generally so many threats that are hard to scout and require divergent defenses. Make plenty of Stalkers to defend against 1-1-1 hellion drop, and the 1-1-1 Raven attack is pretty damn tough. But a lot of these attacks basically seem like gimmicks that can either be fended off if scouted or predicted, or simply bashed through by protoss all ins, which aren't so dependent on say the energy level of a single fragile unit, or SCVs on the front line. Look at the "anti-colossus" build which has more starports than rax - should protoss even need colossus when Terran is investing most of its money into air? Not that mass banshee won't kill a lot of people, but it seems like there's a strong hope that the opponent just doesn't respond appropriately.
Certainly, it seems like a common thread in arguments about how Terrans should deal with many Protoss compositions is "Don't let them get that much gas" (because something like Chargelot/Templar/Carrier is monstrous) whereas as Protoss are usually asking about defending 1 base pushes.
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On December 20 2010 04:31 vnlegend wrote:
Alright after switching to P for a while I can see that P is definitely imba. It's not as much as I thought, but it's still decently ahead.
I've been in the 2400's as T for a while, unable to improve.
As P I won about half of the 12-15 games that I played on the 2400s ladder w/o knowing any build orders, timings, or having played any P 1v1 games in several months. I can see myself easily advancing to 2600+ in a few weeks as Protoss once I learn the build orders and have more experience dealing with T's attacks.
Strategically, P has the advantage and it feels like the Terran has to seriously outplay P in order to win. For Terran, that means better micro and multi-tasking. Basically, given equal strategic/mechanical skill, a player will probably end up 200+ pts higher on the ladder as P compared to playing T. Having PvZ as almost near free wins also helps.
its a cool story so far, but you might wanna back it up to make people really believe it
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Wow this thread has become so dragged down since the last time i posted in it. Now people are arguing balance suggestions that's the sign for a thread to be closed.
It went from Mech vs Bio (Alls i said was Mech's what i do try giving it a shot I mean what's the worst that can happen and people just started calling me stupid and idiot despite the fact I win with it :/)
to now it's talking about how toss is OP or something?
Seriously some things like Khaydarin Amulet might seem OP but they clearly are not as yeah toss is destroying in the lower levels but higher levels craps relatively even. In fact HT is why I switched back to Meching after playing the bio style for awhile because I just find hellions to be phenomenal in dealing with HTs the exact same way you would in BW with suiciding a few to pick them off effectively wasting his gas for nothing plus what's he gunna do with HTs against well spread tanks and bunkers storm each one? Situational obviously.
Still this thread is the typical Storm vs EMP balance arguments now and honestly I don't see a ton of games wheres it's actually come down to storm vs EMP. I've seen some but not a lot.
Usually it's marauder/viking against zlot/stalker/collossi and this is just me but I'm getting very tired of watching that already whereas TvP in BW was my favorite match up to watch and still is after years.
I'm just gunna end with the fact that I'm glad that Factory units are getting more play and working out ie: SlayerSBoxeR, oGsNada, Painuser, TSL_Rain and old Jinro styles. I mean Tester and MC have beaten those styles but they are the best and eventually I'm sure someone can work it out. So that Terran is the Mechanized Terror it was like in BW and not just a bunch of Marauders. I also enjoy the Banshee play that was popular in beta and is really standing out again.
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On December 19 2010 02:17 PaleBlueDot wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2010 02:05 Vega62a wrote:
Did you see PainUser vs WhiteRa in the Root gaming qfs game 1? Actually, just PainIUser in general. He started losing when he stopped using his mech build.
For the love of god. Can we please stop referencing just one game to prove a point? One game is useless to prove consistency. Honestly I do not keep up with painuser, like ever, but if I could get like, 5 references for games (don't even have to be links, just enough info to search up the game on youtube or whatever), that would be great. (And yes, I looked up a couple painuser replays, but the first 2 I saw he did not use mech so I just stopped looking because I shouldn't have to back your stuff up for you)
Different game bra, same player (painuser). It's obvious you aren't reading posts at this point, and the thread has derailed anyway.
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On December 20 2010 04:31 vnlegend wrote:
Alright after switching to P for a while I can see that P is definitely imba. It's not as much as I thought, but it's still decently ahead.
I've been in the 2400's as T for a while, unable to improve.
As P I won about half of the 12-15 games that I played on the 2400s ladder w/o knowing any build orders, timings, or having played any P 1v1 games in several months. I can see myself easily advancing to 2600+ in a few weeks as Protoss once I learn the build orders and have more experience dealing with T's attacks.
Strategically, P has the advantage and it feels like the Terran has to seriously outplay P in order to win. For Terran, that means better micro and multi-tasking. Basically, given equal strategic/mechanical skill, a player will probably end up 200+ pts higher on the ladder as P compared to playing T. Having PvZ as almost near free wins also helps.
Please don't make such claims without proof, it's pointless and annoying.
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On December 20 2010 04:31 vnlegend wrote:
Alright after switching to P for a while I can see that P is definitely imba. It's not as much as I thought, but it's still decently ahead.
I've been in the 2400's as T for a while, unable to improve.
As P I won about half of the 12-15 games that I played on the 2400s ladder w/o knowing any build orders, timings, or having played any P 1v1 games in several months. I can see myself easily advancing to 2600+ in a few weeks as Protoss once I learn the build orders and have more experience dealing with T's attacks.
Strategically, P has the advantage and it feels like the Terran has to seriously outplay P in order to win. For Terran, that means better micro and multi-tasking. Basically, given equal strategic/mechanical skill, a player will probably end up 200+ pts higher on the ladder as P compared to playing T. Having PvZ as almost near free wins also helps.
you sure? PvZ is not free win at all, I have to fight for a win every single PvZ. Unless you 5 gate all in every match. But I still think u will not win against a Z who can defend it well.
Terran is better in small numbers, while protoss is stronger when they have the right units mix. I dont see how anybody can defeat an army of high templar, collosus, stalkers, sentries and chargelots in a head on battle.
Terran is efficient in small numbers, 1/2 dropships worth of drops is so devastating. If you wan to be strong in small numbers and prevent the building up of forces by protoss, then play terran. If you think you are more defensive then I suggest you play protoss. I believe the match up is pretty balance.
Terran cannot expect to win if they sit back and build their 200/200 army. This is just the nature of the game. Protoss can definitely expect to win if they have their 200/200 army, cause is so freaking hard to do it as protoss. Losing 1 or 2 key units in the 200/200 army is very crucial to protoss as well.
You might argue is easy to defend instead of attacking, but I am sure at some point of the game. terran always will have the chance to crush protoss, is just whether they know the time to do it.
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On December 20 2010 04:59 positron. wrote:
I think bio with heavy air support might be a potential solution. Banshees and vikings are very mobile and counter everything that come out of the robo. You should ideally have more banshees than vikings and make sure to research cloak to get rid of the energy or be quick enough to snipe obs and then cloak. This strat still has many holes like feedback and phoenix but at least you have a chance to outmicro the Protoss. Maybe add thors to deal with the phoenix? I know this is really gas intensive so I guess the ground army will be mostly marines.
On the side note: ppl who say t3 P should rape bio and Terran don't use high tech enough are all idiots and should stop posting all together. High tech units of Terran don't deal AoE and Terran don't have that imba spell of ffs to protect high tech units while they dish out their insane damage. While ffs is necessary for P in the early game they are really imba later on.
I already posted about how much success I have had with heavy starport play between the 2K-2.5K diamond range. I am not good but better players can try this stuff out and see if it works (FYI I have seen Trump do some very similar stuff on his stream and kill 2.5k-3k diamond toss players with it).
High tech terran units suck at AOE but toss anti-air is very un-inspiring and a late game fleet of viking, banshee, raven and BCs is very strong. 4+base sky terran rolls over anything that is not storm+carrier so hard. I rarely drop games in TvP that go beyond 3 or more bases and even then its because of some obvious error on my part.
TLDR version: Bio and mech are garbage against toss late game (all those tosses talking about using siege tanks don't know wtf they are talking about). Go starport heavy late game, realy heavy. Don't bother with anything else after 2 or more bases. You will be really successful esp. against colossus, which are best dealt with by completely diminishing their role in the match-up.
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On December 20 2010 11:23 Zaurus wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2010 04:31 vnlegend wrote:
Alright after switching to P for a while I can see that P is definitely imba. It's not as much as I thought, but it's still decently ahead.
I've been in the 2400's as T for a while, unable to improve.
As P I won about half of the 12-15 games that I played on the 2400s ladder w/o knowing any build orders, timings, or having played any P 1v1 games in several months. I can see myself easily advancing to 2600+ in a few weeks as Protoss once I learn the build orders and have more experience dealing with T's attacks.
Strategically, P has the advantage and it feels like the Terran has to seriously outplay P in order to win. For Terran, that means better micro and multi-tasking. Basically, given equal strategic/mechanical skill, a player will probably end up 200+ pts higher on the ladder as P compared to playing T. Having PvZ as almost near free wins also helps. you sure? PvZ is not free win at all, I have to fight for a win every single PvZ. Unless you 5 gate all in every match. But I still think u will not win against a Z who can defend it well. Terran is better in small numbers, while protoss is stronger when they have the right units mix. I dont see how anybody can defeat an army of high templar, collosus, stalkers, sentries and chargelots in a head on battle. Terran is efficient in small numbers, 1/2 dropships worth of drops is so devastating. If you wan to be strong in small numbers and prevent the building up of forces by protoss, then play terran. If you think you are more defensive then I suggest you play protoss. I believe the match up is pretty balance. Terran cannot expect to win if they sit back and build their 200/200 army. This is just the nature of the game. Protoss can definitely expect to win if they have their 200/200 army, cause is so freaking hard to do it as protoss. Losing 1 or 2 key units in the 200/200 army is very crucial to protoss as well. You might argue is easy to defend instead of attacking, but I am sure at some point of the game. terran always will have the chance to crush protoss, is just whether they know the time to do it.
QFT
Terran is basically very strong early game when stim+medivac just come out and toss doesn't have too much aoe yet. Mid game and late game harass heavy due to in small numbers with medivac terran units are very strong against small amount of toss units
If people expect late game to be just 2 big army attacking each other, then play toss if you are a harass friendly+fast expo player then use terran.
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On December 20 2010 10:29 Raiznhell wrote:
Seriously some things like Khaydarin Amulet might seem OP but they clearly are not as yeah toss is destroying in the lower levels but higher levels craps relatively even.
this is completely garbage reasoning. the win rates of terrans in tvps that end before the 10 or 12 minute mark is very high while the winrate of toss in tvps that go beyond that is very high. so basically high lvl tvp is very imbalanced most of the time, its just that both imbas statistically cancel each other out to a certain degree.
the problem with this kind of balance is that the terran wins by timing pushes and early pressure are gimmicky and will lose effectiveness once figured out. on the other hand, until there is a serious revolution of lategame tvp play, there is no hope of lategame tvp winrates improving substantially. so we can assume by default that the matchup is going to shift towards P more and more until such a revolution takes place. the stats only seem somewhat balanced on high lvl atm because the tosses still need time to figure out all the gimmicky bullshit we terrans can throw at them. but there is almost no doubt that they will eventually figure it out.
another problem is that players like mc show how the concept of "early game T > P" might not be as set in stone as we think. even the general army advantage we got going for us during the early game might be breaking away. then there is nothing left besides very specific all-ins or timing pushes.
this is not good balance and it wont remain statistically balanced for much longer unless there is serious change in the metagame. it is very frustrating to come to a thread like this as a lowish player in hope of some crafty advise for dealing with the problems we got with lategame tvp, just to hear pros like jinro or trump or others tell us that there is strategically not much we could do better, that they are about as perplexed with the situation as we low folks are.
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The TvP has been evolving quite a bit since the start I think.
Initially you get all the complaints about the Marauders, but Protoss players learned how to use the sentry, and manage to adapt, and then it's the Terran's turn complain hugely about the Colossus.
It seems that just as Terrans come up with decent unit mixes (banshees+raven+marine/ vikings+MMM) to use vs. Colossus builds, Protoss players start using the Templar.
Unfortunately, while Colossus already had some obvious hard counters (banshee/vikings) and not-so-obvious soft counters (thors), Templars seem to be a different matter.
I hold some hope that Terrans are innovative enough to find a way to deal with a heavy Stalker + Templar combination since that's really the main problem, everything that would technically counter Templars (Hellions, ?Reapers?, Thors) have problems facing the Stalker bodyguards.
Don't think the answer will come anytime soon though. The way Jinro and Rain lost to MC makes me extremely depressed at the state of TvP currently.
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On December 13 2010 23:09 Nakama wrote:
Im a 2300 Diamond T and my main Problem in Tvp is the Zealot.I would say that i play a macro oriented style and i often try to get my 3 up as soon as possible normaly it works good 4me( i open with 1/1/1 sjow style) In the beginning the zelot isnt a big Problem, u can kite it easily and a few tanks shut down most agresion toss can throw at u in the early stages of the game.
However when the game last longer i simply die to mass zealot. When both have their 3 up it becomes rly hard 4 me tp spend my mins in time and i often end up having 1000 overmins and 0 gas.
Marines just die to collosi or ht in this stage of the game and arent cost effective if u dont mangae to kill all high tier units at the beginning of the fight.
The toss however can mass whatever high tech unit he wants and spend his overmins very easily into mass zealot, which once they have legs are the best dps u can get in my opinion. So while im having trouble to counter ht or colossi and spend most my resources into ghosts or vikings, my bioball jsut dies to spammed zealots.
The only asnwer i can think of are upgraded Hellions, but they didnt work well 4 me the times i tried them.
I only win these kind of games if the toss decides to attack me and i win the fight. If he decides to play defensivly i jsut dont stand a chance, every drop just gets shut down casue he can wrap in 5 lots/hts and defend it till reinforcments arrive-
Tl;dr: Zealots are a way to good mineral dump + the overhelming strengh of high tier toss units makes it nearly impossible 4 me to kill defensive toss palyers
Conclusion: Kill him in 15 min or die
Get a few Thors, and some banshees. Then scan once and watch the fireworks.
Seriously, watch painuser own face, that guy's lategame is amazing...
The only way that comp gets beaten is if the opponent has as many HT's as you do banshees! (and gets off a feedback on every single one before you cloak)
Of course you need the obligatory smattering of rax units....
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On December 20 2010 15:41 babyToSS wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2010 04:59 positron. wrote:
I think bio with heavy air support might be a potential solution. Banshees and vikings are very mobile and counter everything that come out of the robo. You should ideally have more banshees than vikings and make sure to research cloak to get rid of the energy or be quick enough to snipe obs and then cloak. This strat still has many holes like feedback and phoenix but at least you have a chance to outmicro the Protoss. Maybe add thors to deal with the phoenix? I know this is really gas intensive so I guess the ground army will be mostly marines.
On the side note: ppl who say t3 P should rape bio and Terran don't use high tech enough are all idiots and should stop posting all together. High tech units of Terran don't deal AoE and Terran don't have that imba spell of ffs to protect high tech units while they dish out their insane damage. While ffs is necessary for P in the early game they are really imba later on.
I already posted about how much success I have had with heavy starport play between the 2K-2.5K diamond range. I am not good but better players can try this stuff out and see if it works (FYI I have seen Trump do some very similar stuff on his stream and kill 2.5k-3k diamond toss players with it). High tech terran units suck at AOE but toss anti-air is very un-inspiring and a late game fleet of viking, banshee, raven and BCs is very strong. 4+base sky terran rolls over anything that is not storm+carrier so hard. I rarely drop games in TvP that go beyond 3 or more bases and even then its because of some obvious error on my part. TLDR version: Bio and mech are garbage against toss late game (all those tosses talking about using siege tanks don't know wtf they are talking about). Go starport heavy late game, realy heavy. Don't bother with anything else after 2 or more bases. You will be really successful esp. against colossus, which are best dealt with by completely diminishing their role in the match-up.
Yeah I'm as perplexed as you are why there are so few pros doing the Terran airforce lategame. In BW its the mech army that has the best synergy (complements each others strengths and canceling each other's weaknesses, while sharing the same upgrades and production structure).
In SC2 its the airforce that has the best synergy, especially if you transition into it from MM (raven viking banshee medivac). I wonder who will be the One who will show the masses how OP terran air is, considering you don't have to rush to get them because of strong MM.
Are there any replays/streams showing Master level airplay? I'd like to see those. :D
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I think the main issue with going Air is getting it up and running.
P can plop down a Stargate the instant the Cybernetics Core is finished and then Chronoboost out the first few units.
T has to build a Factory first (which unlike a Cybernetics Core indicates a major tech path) then get the Starport and can only build Vikings and Medivacs until a Tech Lab is added.
T also lacks an all-purpose Air unit before the BC, meaning you'd have to split between Banshees and Vikings.
Once up and running I can imagine a huge Air deathball vaporizing everything, but getting that deathball is going to be insanely hard.
As for early advantages, T has to make a big commitment to make use of that advantage by going Bio. If the Bio doesn't do enough damage, P techs up and kills it.
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this shows how underdeveloped protoss builds and unit mixes earlier were,
not so long ago forums were flooded with countless topics of P players unable to beat terran despite of blizzard statistics showing that infact they have better winrate in that matchup (korea with highest % difference shows that other realms just started to catch up), the whine resulted in buffing protoss and terran nerf (still in progress) while the current state of pvt looks totally different compered to 1 month ago.
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EPT
