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On December 20 2010 21:22 Thezzy wrote:
I think the main issue with going Air is getting it up and running.
P can plop down a Stargate the instant the Cybernetics Core is finished and then Chronoboost out the first few units.
T has to build a Factory first (which unlike a Cybernetics Core indicates a major tech path) then get the Starport and can only build Vikings and Medivacs until a Tech Lab is added.
T also lacks an all-purpose Air unit before the BC, meaning you'd have to split between Banshees and Vikings.
Once up and running I can imagine a huge Air deathball vaporizing everything, but getting that deathball is going to be insanely hard.
As for early advantages, T has to make a big commitment to make use of that advantage by going Bio. If the Bio doesn't do enough damage, P techs up and kills it.
But how often do you see a stargate right after the cyber most toss will go for the observer meaning they opt to get the robo instead.
Also to get a stargate toss need the gateway then the core than they can choose the robo and/or the stargate.
Choosing both before your natural finish limits your gateway army. Choosing the stargate first puts you at a potential risk to banshee play. Ideally you would want to produce out of all your production buildings so going both just to get an observer seems rather 1 dementional.
Also for terrans to get a starport for air they require a barracks than a factory than a starport. (still 3 buildings).
Even if a toss scouts an early second gas from you they don't know if the factory they see (assuming the scouting probe sees it which is often not the case) is for mech play or air play until they get a scout in the base or put enough presure on the front to force the other units to help the mass marine that will inevitably be there due to the fact that the terran is teching.
You say this is pretty one dementional. However, opening for air denies you access to 3 units as your tech labs can be built on the rax or factory in advance. You are denied immediate access to the thor, the ghost, and the battlecruiser. And even so 1 of these units are easily accessed with most follow ups. As the game progresses regardless of your composition you want an armory for upgrades thus the thor is easily reached almost immediately afterward.
For protoss lets say you opt for getting both the robo and the stargate after your core. Units denied to you. Collosus mothership, and carrier. In addition off one base chances are both will not be able to produce constantly unless you go only zealot. Which means whatever you built out of your stargate will be your only antiair.
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the matchup is still not fugured out completly, give is some more time before sayng whats op and whats not
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On December 20 2010 22:34 cilinder007 wrote:
the matchup is still not fugured out completly, give is some more time before sayng whats op and whats not
It is figured out well enough to make the following statements:
- terran bio is overpowered early
- terran bio is underpowered late
- terran can not transition out of bio
- everything that is not bio is not viable due to easily available protoss hard counters
Conclusion: win early or die.
I'd say that's a pretty good indication of a fucked up match-up.
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The way I see it (from my lowly experience) is that in midgame, Toss makes the decision of whether to go for HTs or for Collossi. I want to compare the advantages and disadvantages of both:
HT +:
Warp-able
Easy, relatively cheap AOE on demand
Can make Archons
Decimate bioballs
Feedback is good
HT -:
Squishy
EMP-able
Slow and unmaneuverable in a battle.
Storm is lackluster vs Mech (or anything with more than 80hp)
Colossi +:
Stacking, increasing damage output with higher numbers
Great range
Good maneuverability in battle.
Colossi -:
Build time
Mineral/gas/food cost
Snipe-able by air
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Now that that's done, realize 2 things: the damage collossi deal increases with the number of Colossi. They can deal more damage in a single instance over an increasing AOE as more Colossi get a better arc.
Storm suffers from the distinct problem that it's an AoE DOT. As great as it is, any single storm will never do anywhere close to full 80 damage against a unit that can micro, and the MOST damage you can deal in 4 seconds is 80. 3 Colossi without upgrades deal more damage than a single storm instantly, albeit in a smaller area, and there's no way to dodge those beams when they go down. Storm can cover a greater area because you can thrown down several of them, but the only thing storms are REALLY good at killing is bio, they are really pretty crappy against mech (tanks will outrange HTs, Thors have the HP to not care about storms, Hellions are too fast to care.)
Basically, what I want to say to Terrans who are struggling with Storms is to start incorporating mech when they see the Templar Archives go down. Chances are, the P is investing so much into HTs at that point that they can't get any reliably scary production of immortals from the robo, and the one thing I HATE playing against the most is a mech-heavy Terran player when all I have is gateway units and HTs. That's mainly because Storm just doesn't cut it vs mech. Take advantage of that, get a few Thors in the mix, and have a few tanks back up your bio force, you should be able to win a lot of battles before P transitions to Colossi/more robo tech.
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On December 20 2010 23:48 HalfAmazing wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2010 22:34 cilinder007 wrote:
the matchup is still not fugured out completly, give is some more time before sayng whats op and whats not It is figured out well enough to make the following statements: - terran bio is overpowered early - terran bio is underpowered late - terran can not transition out of bio - everything that is not bio is not viable due to easily available protoss hard counters Conclusion: win early or die. I'd say that's a pretty good indication of a fucked up match-up.
Terran can transition halfway out of bio :D, get biomech or airbio. I think more time should be given to the Masters to figure out how to optimise Terran builds. (Had my eye on airbuild) Wait for GSL 2011 S class, and hope for the Boxer/Flash of SC2 to emerge.
Anyway, I'm just going to make a statement that air is gonna be the new mech, albeit with several twists thrown in. I'll even wager it XD.
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On December 20 2010 23:48 HalfAmazing wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2010 22:34 cilinder007 wrote:
the matchup is still not fugured out completly, give is some more time before sayng whats op and whats not It is figured out well enough to make the following statements: - terran bio is overpowered early - terran bio is underpowered late - terran can not transition out of bio - everything that is not bio is not viable due to easily available protoss hard counters Conclusion: win early or die. I'd say that's a pretty good indication of a fucked up match-up.
MC has been beating terrans in the early game and Jinro has been beating protosses late game. New strategies are being developed all the time so nothing has been figured out...
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On December 21 2010 03:58 iamke55 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2010 23:48 HalfAmazing wrote:On December 20 2010 22:34 cilinder007 wrote:
the matchup is still not fugured out completly, give is some more time before sayng whats op and whats not It is figured out well enough to make the following statements: - terran bio is overpowered early - terran bio is underpowered late - terran can not transition out of bio - everything that is not bio is not viable due to easily available protoss hard counters Conclusion: win early or die. I'd say that's a pretty good indication of a fucked up match-up. MC has been beating terrans in the early game and Jinro has been beating protosses late game. New strategies are being developed all the time so nothing has been figured out...
lol what? where did u get that.
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On December 20 2010 21:52 derppp wrote:
this shows how underdeveloped protoss builds and unit mixes earlier were,
not so long ago forums were flooded with countless topics of P players unable to beat terran despite of blizzard statistics showing that infact they have better winrate in that matchup (korea with highest % difference shows that other realms just started to catch up), the whine resulted in buffing protoss and terran nerf (still in progress) while the current state of pvt looks totally different compered to 1 month ago.
This is total nonsense.
Nothing has changed at all apart from the fact that P players simply got better at defending the 50 billion cheeses T can use to beat a P early/mid game before Colossai/Templar tech.
Overtime P players in general just got better at FFing, which is a critical component to winning as P. Your early/mid game hinges on your ability to FF well, if you can't you will lose basically 99.9% of your fights.
Not to mention that Tanks/Medivacs got nerfed, along with Nexus buffs which hugely improved the ability for P to move out, as no longer could Tank lines wipe out Zeals instantly, and Mauraders couldn't snipe your Nexus in under a second.
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On December 20 2010 23:48 HalfAmazing wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2010 22:34 cilinder007 wrote:
the matchup is still not fugured out completly, give is some more time before sayng whats op and whats not It is figured out well enough to make the following statements: - terran bio is overpowered early - terran bio is underpowered late - terran can not transition out of bio - everything that is not bio is not viable due to easily available protoss hard countersConclusion: win early or die. I'd say that's a pretty good indication of a fucked up match-up.
You do understand that it's the protoss player that has to react to nearly everything terran does or lose, right? Needing to tech storm to handle bio and the "easily available hard counter" to whatever else you do isn't exactly easy.
Terran players need more ghost and ghost tech (like cloak) and more PDD use.
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How is this awful thread not locked already? WHen it was made last week it started going good with jinro chiming in and everyone ignoring his comments. Now I look in the original post and he quotes some guy saying his dog could win with storm warp ins? There is nothing useful here anymore. If you guys would rather complain than come up with solutions or share ideas about how to work around this difficult matchups you should take it to the battlenet forums. I would challenge anyone here to offrace the other half of the matchup and get their highest rating possible since its soooooo easy.
My personal opinion is that the average player is lost in this matchup. The average protoss knows that the average terran will struggle with protoss AoE and so he generally goes for it. The average terran knows he needs a strong and clever early game to try to get an advantage headed into the midgame. I think the tools are there for either race to win at any stage of the game. I really think most of the people on this thread, myself included, doesn't macro perfectly enough to really even complain about balance. I guarantee there are several factors beyond just storm and collossuss that is making you lose to some protoss players, not the least of which is just a disparity in skill. Did anyone feel TSL_Rain SHOULD have had a chance against oGsMC? MC is just a superior player, no unit combinations or tech is going to change that. He has better macro, better micro, and better decision making. This is what wins games.
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On December 21 2010 06:09 Jayrod wrote:
How is this awful thread not locked already? WHen it was made last week it started going good with jinro chiming in and everyone ignoring his comments. Now I look in the original post and he quotes some guy saying his dog could win with storm warp ins? There is nothing useful here anymore. If you guys would rather complain than come up with solutions or share ideas about how to work around this difficult matchups you should take it to the battlenet forums. I would challenge anyone here to offrace the other half of the matchup and get their highest rating possible since its soooooo easy.
My personal opinion is that the average player is lost in this matchup. The average protoss knows that the average terran will struggle with protoss AoE and so he generally goes for it. The average terran knows he needs a strong and clever early game to try to get an advantage headed into the midgame. I think the tools are there for either race to win at any stage of the game. I really think most of the people on this thread, myself included, doesn't macro perfectly enough to really even complain about balance. I guarantee there are several factors beyond just storm and collossuss that is making you lose to some protoss players, not the least of which is just a disparity in skill. Did anyone feel TSL_Rain SHOULD have had a chance against oGsMC? MC is just a superior player, no unit combinations or tech is going to change that. He has better macro, better micro, and better decision making. This is what wins games.
absurd point of view
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If anyone has been watching Painusers stream (currently on and has been for many hours) he has lost a huge amount of games to protoss, and despite being different guys, the matches always play out the same.
When Painuser FE's, he dies to a timing attack. Not even an all-in or cheese, but a standard, protoss expand-timing with collosus or whichever tech path they chose. Painuser is constantly broke on cash, despite having the FE up, he is forced to spend money on tech to make his bio effective, but at the cost of not having enough units itself to deal with a timing.
The games where Painuser survives to late game, which to his credit is many, he is just being utterly rolled, while playing outstandingly well. So many times he was at max food with 5 bases, yet even with vikings and ghosts, the collosus and high templars do do much frontload instant damage that half his army crumbles immediately.
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On December 21 2010 06:09 Jayrod wrote:
How is this awful thread not locked already? WHen it was made last week it started going good with jinro chiming in and everyone ignoring his comments. Now I look in the original post and he quotes some guy saying his dog could win with storm warp ins? There is nothing useful here anymore. If you guys would rather complain than come up with solutions or share ideas about how to work around this difficult matchups you should take it to the battlenet forums. I would challenge anyone here to offrace the other half of the matchup and get their highest rating possible since its soooooo easy.
My personal opinion is that the average player is lost in this matchup. The average protoss knows that the average terran will struggle with protoss AoE and so he generally goes for it. The average terran knows he needs a strong and clever early game to try to get an advantage headed into the midgame. I think the tools are there for either race to win at any stage of the game. I really think most of the people on this thread, myself included, doesn't macro perfectly enough to really even complain about balance. I guarantee there are several factors beyond just storm and collossuss that is making you lose to some protoss players, not the least of which is just a disparity in skill. Did anyone feel TSL_Rain SHOULD have had a chance against oGsMC? MC is just a superior player, no unit combinations or tech is going to change that. He has better macro, better micro, and better decision making. This is what wins games.
The guy bragging about his dog's MAD sc2 skiLLz is actually quoted because he is good at sc2.
(not the dog, the guy)
The thread is not closed because we still discuss the matchup. Do you think you have figured it out? Stating obvious stuff like "the better players wins" doesn't add any value.
I agree about average players not being able to counter the AoE tech protoss has lategame. Good TvP players micro ghosts like gods and claim the FF is OP. Most averge players fail when their bio ball evaporates because the protoss player pressed T and clicked.
For players of similar skill who are below 2500 the matchup is trouble because its ridiculously easy to a-move a stimmed bioball earlygame or to storm that bioball lategame. That applies to 99,9% of all sc2 players. THAT is why this matchup needs fixing.
(And thats why we T are so angry. Not having a late game to look forward to in TvP is really boring.)
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On December 21 2010 07:29 aloT wrote:
If anyone has been watching Painusers stream (currently on and has been for many hours) he has lost a huge amount of games to protoss, and despite being different guys, the matches always play out the same.
When Painuser FE's, he dies to a timing attack. Not even an all-in or cheese, but a standard, protoss expand-timing with collosus or whichever tech path they chose. Painuser is constantly broke on cash, despite having the FE up, he is forced to spend money on tech to make his bio effective, but at the cost of not having enough units itself to deal with a timing.
The games where Painuser survives to late game, which to his credit is many, he is just being utterly rolled, while playing outstandingly well. So many times he was at max food with 5 bases, yet even with vikings and ghosts, the collosus and high templars do do much frontload instant damage that half his army crumbles immediately.
Painuser is a hero. He refuses the cheap cheezy wins.
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Just to add my $0.02 as a lowly 1400 protoss...
I am definitely finding PvT to be a bit of a breeze right now. I have several builds I use all to great success, mostly about surviving early game or applying pressure (voids, DTs) or defeating timing attacks to get colossus and HT out and into the late game. From there, its a-move and storm, collect win.
However, I have noticed almost all my T opponents have stopped using drops... before 1.1.2 I had nightmares about my templar archives being marauder stim dropped when storm was 3/4ths done, probes dieing to marines, having to dart all over the map to just stay alive, and eventually crumble as my rag-tag army of a few colossi and maybe 1 HT without storm dies to mmm with a 40 or so supply advantage. Was the medivac speed nerf really that massive? Even in GSL 3, hardly any drops are done in PvT anymore. Perhaps the nerf was too much? I reckon medivacs kept mmm a midgame force to be reckoned with pre-1.1.2.
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On December 13 2010 23:04 dbkim92 wrote:
Well, as a T-user, in a TvP what's foremost on my mind is constantly dropping to pick off tech to abuse the immobility of a toss that goes collosus. At some stage in the game you know the time you will need to add vikings and later ghosts. Then you constantly have to be trying to catch their army in an advantageous position for you such that forcefields are somewhat mitigated. I really dont know wat more to say=\ the replays also show only one aspect of the matchup with a favorable result for P.
And as for the viability of mech, well, i guess Thors can b sprinkled in and a couple of tanks. But ive never seen a heavy tank composition beat toss.
Basically, storm is a scary spell, so try to win before that(Y)
What kind of harass are you doing that can't be responded with a few stalkers being warped in near by? Toss is extremely mobile collo are not very slow and they can walk up terrain Im not sure what you mean by "immobile" Whats so Immobile about warping in a small force of units where they are needed to deal with a "drop" etc?
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On December 21 2010 07:47 LtLolburger wrote:
Just to add my $0.02 as a lowly 1400 protoss...
I am definitely finding PvT to be a bit of a breeze right now. I have several builds I use all to great success, mostly about surviving early game or applying pressure (voids, DTs) or defeating timing attacks to get colossus and HT out and into the late game. From there, its a-move and storm, collect win.
However, I have noticed almost all my T opponents have stopped using drops... before 1.1.2 I had nightmares about my templar archives being marauder stim dropped when storm was 3/4ths done, probes dieing to marines, having to dart all over the map to just stay alive, and eventually crumble as my rag-tag army of a few colossi and maybe 1 HT without storm dies to mmm with a 40 or so supply advantage. Was the medivac speed nerf really that massive? Even in GSL 3, hardly any drops are done in PvT anymore. Perhaps the nerf was too much? I reckon medivacs kept mmm a midgame force to be reckoned with pre-1.1.2.
Everytime i drop i get feedbacked/ Stormed and my Dropship dies.
Step 1) Spot
Step 2) warp in HTs
Step 3) Feedback
Edit: Drop ships are also slow enough to get stormed
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On December 21 2010 07:49 Meldrath wrote:
What kind of harass are you doing that can't be responded with a few stalkers being warped in near by? Toss is extremely mobile collo are not very slow and they can walk up terrain Im not sure what you mean by "immobile" Whats so Immobile about warping in a small force of units where they are needed to deal with a "drop" etc?
A medivac full of bio can pretty easily kill off one round of 4-6 gate warp ins, if you're doing it before amulet tech. Drops work! It's annoying.
And if you're smart and know they have feedback lined up, send in one of your newer dropships with less energy.
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On December 21 2010 08:06 Resistentialism wrote:
A medivac full of bio can pretty easily kill off one round of 4-6 gate warp ins, if you're doing it before amulet tech. Drops work! It's annoying.
4 Marauders and Medivac should do pretty well against 4-6 Zealots or Stalkers (depending on upgrades and such) that are warped in after the drop lands. Especially if they're warped in within range of the terran units.
However, the same handful of zealots and Stalkers cleans up the drop handily if they've responded BEFORE the medivac unloads.
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'sup fellow terrans,
Today I experienced a fast ghost build timing push. althought the BO was quite messy, it seemed to be it was quite imbalanced : EMP the sentryball, then you have the stimmed marines and maraudeur that kill every thing, kiting zealot with the help of maraudeur's concusive shell, also you take 10 scvs from your main to help.
At the begining of the fight, after emp and stiming, build 2 bunker (just in case)
Protoss can't forcefield ramp with help of emp so he won't be able to make templar / colossus.
I don't really see any Protoss BO counter this on small maps.
For me, stimpack timing push with scv is incredibly strong. I think stimpack should be a T2 technology BUT nerf psionic storm dommage and make it cost 50 instead of 75 would be a good deal to balance.
But I have to agree that Late game REALLY suck for terran, now I will veto shakura map which really sucks for terran.
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EPT
