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I'm completely fascinated about doing a better job of solving this matchup, and I think no top players have shown very solid gameplans for the matchup.
But, I would completely be against nerfing P in any way. I think amulet storm is ridiculously strong, but until we see better T gameplay, it's too early to judge. Leave everything the way it is, wait a few more months and then we can see.
The only minor comment I want to throw in there is that T has a lot of deadweight units. Thor, BC, reaper are all pretty lackluster. Thor is like something you might get 1 of to ward off muta harass in a fragile FE/transition. Completely terrible in straight up combat against everything. BC is completely reliant on yamato to be efficient.
But since none of these units are core, perhaps nothing needs fixing. My prediction is that other races get new units for the expansion, and T gets their deadweight units fixed to counter those new things.
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Storming a mineral line is kind of a waste unless you are sitting on too much gas, or a terran has a super-saturated base (30ish scvs or more). Getting a templar to a terran mineral line to kill 3 or 4 scvs shouldn't happen if the terran is keeping you honest.
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On December 19 2010 14:19 Chargelot wrote:
Have you ever fought a Protoss army that doesn't have any shields? Our units don't have infinite health and 6 shields. They're a massive portion of the unit's total damage. They're 33% of a zealot's total damage, 42% of colossi damage, more than half the usefulness of immortals, and (I can already hear you crying over this example) 97% of an Archon's damage.
High Templar are useless without energy. Ghosts sap all energy from it's EMP target.
EMP deals 100 damage instantly to higher tech protoss units.
EMP works against structures, and therefore can render a nexus unable to chronoboost.
Storm deals a crap-ton of damage to bio, and is only more accessible than a ghost because the protoss player warps them in faster, which is what tips the scales to even.
Maybe it's not the unit that is bad, but rather your experiences with it and the way you handled them. (which was my point).
You didn't address my argument at all, I addressed every one of your points in my first post and pointed out why the HT is superior to the ghost in its role.
But lets go over your little platinum world logic
HT can also sap all energy from ghosts -> ghosts are useless when they are dead, high Templar without energy can turn into archons (even assuming the ghost surives, hes gonna die in 1second to colossus or .25 of a storm. - but as I said, ghosts I think have a slight advantage here still because of tiny bit of extra range and cloak
Storms can do up to 100% damage on all units
EMP deals more damage and instantly but its capped at a maximum and protoss units have more overall health, this means protoss are not forced to run away from EMP - one of the key points for HTs.
Anyone who uses an emp on a nexus is retarded moving on
Unless your a 3000 P, doubtful considering your ridiculous posts, I doubt you have more experience then me.
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Ah, you're giving a lecture on basic wiki topics with your excellent ladder pedigree. This thread is top tier, I bet.
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On December 19 2010 14:30 Resistentialism wrote:
Storming a mineral line is kind of a waste unless you are sitting on too much gas, or a terran has a super-saturated base (30ish scvs or more). Getting a templar to a terran mineral line to kill 3 or 4 scvs shouldn't happen if the terran is keeping you honest.
Ever heard of warp prisms? 3 storms = entire mineral line dead, and Templar can potentially still escape in the warp prism. Probably closer to 6scvs per storm, which is worth far more cumulatively then the 300minerals it costs to replace them and can make a huge impact on the game.
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On December 13 2010 22:19 Dente wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2010 23:24 4Servy wrote:
once protoss has the amulet its gg, its ridic how imba that upgrade is my dog can win with protoss after they got the amulet.
This may or may not be true. But if it's true, it just means you probably need to win with a timing attack before they get the amulet. They're incredibly vulnerable before they get it.
I'm sure people will eventually start splitting their marines to avoid storms as well, just like to avoid banelings.
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EMP is quite good but its more of an variable damage instant can't be lethal AOE attack than something like Storm which gives you positional and damage that kills. No shields sounds good on paper but that's only 40-80 damage on your core gate way army which sounds great but pales in comparison relative to what Storm can do to a T bio army.
I will make the claim that Storm vs T is relatively better than EMP vs Toss. Why?
On the simplest level, T bio units are much more squishy than their P counter parts and rely on their high DPS and range to kill units before they can do much damage to the bio ball:
Against a spell-less Toss army, the bioball just steams rolls everything due to the stupid amount of DPS. However because of how fragile T units and the relatively high DPS/HP, if you have a unit like the colossus or the high templar that can actually damage the T army before it can apply its DPS, it is devastating for T.
On a higher level, Storm is positional and simultaneously attacks and protects by forcing the T army to move and preventing the T army from applying its superior DPS while also preventing damage to the P army.
Like in B-Dub, it is the tip of spear for the late game Protoss army. You place it and T has to move or its DPS will be cut drastically because T units are so low on HP. So T moves, no big deal right? Well, not for one or two storms, but when you go up in number to 5+ storms in the bank, T is taking damage from each storm and losing units and has to keep falling back while the Protoss army advances doing damage with stalkers and closing with zealots all the while taking reduced damage from the bio ball because its moving and can't form an arc and may be forced onto unfavorable Terran.
That doesn't mean EMP is garbage or anything, if you can EMP the energy on a clump of Templar then you win the game because your allow your army to be effective at forming a stim arc and applying your damage and killing P's units faster than P can kill yours. This then basically comes down to accuracy and speed of clicking along with having the correct amount of vision.
TL:DR - Don't rely on EMP for the 100 damage to shields with AOE, EMP is only as good as how many energy you units you can render invalid. Therefor, don't compare EMP and Storm against each other because they are used differently.
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On December 19 2010 14:38 statikg wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2010 14:19 Chargelot wrote:
Have you ever fought a Protoss army that doesn't have any shields? Our units don't have infinite health and 6 shields. They're a massive portion of the unit's total damage. They're 33% of a zealot's total damage, 42% of colossi damage, more than half the usefulness of immortals, and (I can already hear you crying over this example) 97% of an Archon's damage.
High Templar are useless without energy. Ghosts sap all energy from it's EMP target.
EMP deals 100 damage instantly to higher tech protoss units.
EMP works against structures, and therefore can render a nexus unable to chronoboost.
Storm deals a crap-ton of damage to bio, and is only more accessible than a ghost because the protoss player warps them in faster, which is what tips the scales to even.
Maybe it's not the unit that is bad, but rather your experiences with it and the way you handled them. (which was my point). You didn't address my argument at all, I addressed every one of your points in my first post and pointed out why the HT is superior to the ghost in its role. But lets go over your little platinum world logic HT can also sap all energy from ghosts -> ghosts are useless when they are dead, high Templar without energy can turn into archons (even assuming the ghost surives, hes gonna die in 1second to colossus or .25 of a storm. - but as I said, ghosts I think have a slight advantage here still because of tiny bit of extra range and cloak Storms can do up to 100% damage on all units EMP deals more damage and instantly but its capped at a maximum and protoss units have more overall health, this means protoss are not forced to run away from EMP - one of the key points for HTs. Anyone who uses an emp on a nexus is retarded moving on Unless your a 3000 P, doubtful considering your ridiculous posts, I doubt you have more experience then me.
Somehow your child-like way of ranting, and using personal insults to support your over-biased point-of-view doesn't seem to be too effective.
Ghosts have utility other than front-line EMP immortal killers. Archons are an out for a useless unit which can not attack, and they usually don't live long enough to prove effective against a terran player. Yes they're big, yes they're powerful, but so is a well place and timed nuke.
Sticking to the core argument of Ghost EMP vs High Templar Storm:
EMP has a range of 10, and an area of effect radius of 2.
Ghosts have a sight range of 11.
Feedback has a range of 9.
HTs have a sight range of 10.
If you didn't get cloak, or your opponent has an observer, it is still more than possible to successfully micro EMP vs. HTs, rendering them completely useless individually, and forcing them to become Archon if you hit more then one or he has one in the back with no energy.
If the terran player is good at micro, he/she can EMP an HT before the HT even has vision of the ghost.
And for a ghost to die in .50 (as .25 is literally impossible) seconds of storm, there would need to be a total of 10 storms on the ghost. Storm hits for 10 damage every half a second for 4 seconds.
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It would be better to buff terran mech units than nerfing some P units/buildings since this would make terran mech builds viable against other matchups and not ruin the balance for other matchups for P.
Ive been thinking about using possible mech builds against P for quite some time now and these are some of the analysis and conclusions that I came across.
Firstly, we have to understand why mech builds work for SC1. In SC1, we have the vultures. These units play three roles in the TvP matchup. First role is the ability to harass due to their fast movement speed and can kill workers with two hits without any upgrades. Secondly, it has the ability to obtain map control with the ability to lay spider mines. The importance of spider mines are huge because they achieve three important roles. They allow for a safer FE in the early game by containing the P with mines (forcing P to get Obs, countering DT rushes), act as a buffer to tank lines, and allow map control due to their vision/compensates the lack of mobility of a mech army. Lastly, the vultures also act as the buffer to the tank lines and also a counter to zealots.
In comparison, we have a unit replacing vultures call hellions in SC2. Hellions are fantastic units for harassing due to their splash and damage upgrade to Light units. In army engagement scenarios, they also act as a buffer to tanks while scorching zealots in big numbers. However unlike vultures, hellions do not have the ability to lay mines which means that the advantages provided by the spider mines are all down the toilet.
If we were to imagine that hellions were allowed to lay spiders mines in SC2, this would provide:
-Another method of providing a defense against early game stalker aggression.
-Force observers from P users which takes up valuable robo time.
-Make P think twice before attempting blink stalkers to bypass the front door, or going around the backdoor via destructible debris/Rock.
-Provide another counter to DTs instead of investing Into the starport/Raven.
-Force P to go into a macro game instead of attempting any sort of 4 gate shenanigans.
However in Reality, there are no spider mines in SC2. This makes early game aggression from P that much harder to defend that starting with any sort of mech build can be punished. Opening with hellions can be a very risky business which force T users to indefinitely go with the 2~3 rax openings. Why not open with tanks (into FE)? note:along with rines, bunkers and some simcity.
In SC1 tanks are a devastating unit and are the core of the T mech army. Because of the frightening damage that these units dish out, they play a vital role of setting up containments or defensive positions that make P users think twice before committing an attack to a tank fortified position. Having 2~3 tanks with a bunker/rines provides a safe protection for attempting an FE in the early game. Hence any early game dragoon aggression is immediately countered by having siege mode ready. Now the question is why doesn't this work in SC2? One of the reasons is the different damage systems in SC1 and SC2.
The tank damage in siege mode is considered to be of "explosive splash" type in SC1. They deal full 70 damage to large units such as the dragoons, and 35 damage to small units such as zealots (75% to medium sized units e.g hydralisks) However a big difference is that siege tanks deal full damage to shields before considering size. In comparison, SC2 tanks not only deal less damage while using a different damage system. For instance, a stalker would be dealt the full 50 damage (35+15 bonus), while zealot would be dealt with 35 damage ignoring whether or not its hitting the shield or the actual unit itself. Tanks in SC2 seem much less fearsome but are also plagued by other reasons that make them used less and less in TvP. Those are:
-Cheap units like zealots can take 5 tank shots, while units like immortals take alot more forcing gas constrained T to invest into either ghost tech for emp or make them think twice before getting tanks. Just to further emphasize the point, units like the colossus require 7 shots i.e. most P units can take alot of punishment unlike SC1.
-Vulnerability to early air aggression to P, e.g voidrays and phoenixes.
-The blink ability can bypass any fortified tank line without having to worry about any mine fields and force the T to unsiege.
-Require 3 supply, more gas (although some argue that better AI, faster attack speed, +1 extra range and +10 HP compensates for this, Id rather have 2supply/100gas back).
Because armories are essential to all mech builds, these allow T in both SC1 and SC2 to have access to the third mech unit provided by the factory. Goliath (SC1) and Thor (SC2). These units theoretically provide the valuable AA (GTA) defense 100% required by mech armies. The striking difference between the goliath and the thor is that the goliath is an ideal AA unit while the thor is not. Thors are expensive, supply hungry units that take alot of time to build. They dont really dish out much damage to armoured air units such as Voidrays and will lose in a 1v1 situation. In comparison, a goliath is cheaper, takes up 2 supply and provides decent AA because they can be massed (adjusting their numbers to the amount of P air units). Both units also provide decent shielding of the tanks and can dish out some damage to ground units.
Its economically/strategically suicidal to pump thors against P and their weakness to a variety of P units in SC2, most users opt to use rines or vikings as key AA units. Here we see a problem. They are just not ideal AA (ATG) factory based units which means that the T has to stick to bio or invest into starport tech/vikings. Most choose the former, but sometimes vikings are produced since they are also an ideal counter to the colossus. This creates a problem of having to invest into different tech tree ala the starport tech instead of building additional factories (marines in the late game are prone to being fried by storms/colossus so vikings are the only way to go). So now in SC2 the mech composition must include vikings into its composition and fill in the huge gap that the goliath have left from SC1.
So summarizing with regards to unit compositions, mech builds in SC1 work because of the synergies that exist between different factory only units. Vultures, tanks and goliaths all help each other by covering up their weaknesses and are i.e. dependent on each other. On top of that, the majority of the investments are made along one tech tree (factory/armory). Compared to SC2, such synergies don't quite exist between the factory units and other tech trees must be invested such as starport tech for AA and ghost tech for EMP.
Maps also play an important factor since any map with:
-short rush distance like SoW
-backdoors
Will make mech builds not viable. I wont go indepth about issues with the current map pool since there is like a million threads about it but there are certainly an issue with maps with regards to balance.
So going back to the viability of mech builds in TvP in SC2, Id say in its current form it has too many risks compared to bio builds and any mistakes using a mech build can be much more punishing. So something like bio -> mech transition is more favorable than mech -> mech. Even if one decides to transition into mech, the weaknesses and lack of synergy between the mech units make it less appealing compared to an even bigger MMM+ghost/viking.
Its quite sad that once there are both HT and colossus on the field, it becomes quite impossible to fight this kind of composition with regards to MMM+ghost/viking.
edit - kind of a brain dump I did here, and there are bound to be mistakes so please correct me if i am wrong. I was going to go on about what kind of buffs could make mech viable but im spending far too much time sorting the ideas out.. and also add to the above if ive missed anything.
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On December 19 2010 14:51 Chargelot wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2010 14:38 statikg wrote:On December 19 2010 14:19 Chargelot wrote:
Have you ever fought a Protoss army that doesn't have any shields? Our units don't have infinite health and 6 shields. They're a massive portion of the unit's total damage. They're 33% of a zealot's total damage, 42% of colossi damage, more than half the usefulness of immortals, and (I can already hear you crying over this example) 97% of an Archon's damage.
High Templar are useless without energy. Ghosts sap all energy from it's EMP target.
EMP deals 100 damage instantly to higher tech protoss units.
EMP works against structures, and therefore can render a nexus unable to chronoboost.
Storm deals a crap-ton of damage to bio, and is only more accessible than a ghost because the protoss player warps them in faster, which is what tips the scales to even.
Maybe it's not the unit that is bad, but rather your experiences with it and the way you handled them. (which was my point). You didn't address my argument at all, I addressed every one of your points in my first post and pointed out why the HT is superior to the ghost in its role. But lets go over your little platinum world logic HT can also sap all energy from ghosts -> ghosts are useless when they are dead, high Templar without energy can turn into archons (even assuming the ghost surives, hes gonna die in 1second to colossus or .25 of a storm. - but as I said, ghosts I think have a slight advantage here still because of tiny bit of extra range and cloak Storms can do up to 100% damage on all units EMP deals more damage and instantly but its capped at a maximum and protoss units have more overall health, this means protoss are not forced to run away from EMP - one of the key points for HTs. Anyone who uses an emp on a nexus is retarded moving on Unless your a 3000 P, doubtful considering your ridiculous posts, I doubt you have more experience then me. Somehow your child-like way of ranting, and using personal insults to support your over-biased point-of-view doesn't seem to be too effective. Ghosts have utility other than front-line EMP immortal killers. Archons are an out for a useless unit which can not attack, and they usually don't live long enough to prove effective against a terran player. Yes they're big, yes they're powerful, but so is a well place and timed nuke. Sticking to the core argument of Ghost EMP vs High Templar Storm: EMP has a range of 10, and an area of effect radius of 2.
Ghosts have a sight range of 11.
Feedback has a range of 9.
HTs have a sight range of 10.If you didn't get cloak, or your opponent has an observer, it is still more than possible to successfully micro EMP vs. HTs, rendering them completely useless individually, and forcing them to become Archon if you hit more then one or he has one in the back with no energy. If the terran player is good at micro, he/she can EMP an HT before the HT even has vision of the ghost. And for a ghost to die in .50 (as .25 is literally impossible) seconds of storm, there would need to be a total of 10 storms on the ghost. Storm hits for 10 damage every half a second for 4 seconds.
storm doesnt stack so damage will be caped at the standard dps.
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On December 19 2010 14:51 Chargelot wrote:
Somehow your child-like way of ranting, and using personal insults to support your over-biased point-of-view doesn't seem to be too effective.
Ghosts have utility other than front-line EMP immortal killers. Archons are an out for a useless unit which can not attack, and they usually don't live long enough to prove effective against a terran player. Yes they're big, yes they're powerful, but so is a well place and timed nuke.
Sticking to the core argument of Ghost EMP vs High Templar Storm:
EMP has a range of 10, and an area of effect radius of 2.
Ghosts have a sight range of 11.
Feedback has a range of 9.
HTs have a sight range of 10.
If you didn't get cloak, or your opponent has an observer, it is still more than possible to successfully micro EMP vs. HTs, rendering them completely useless individually, and forcing them to become Archon if you hit more then one or he has one in the back with no energy.
If the terran player is good at micro, he/she can EMP an HT before the HT even has vision of the ghost.
And for a ghost to die in .50 (as .25 is literally impossible) seconds of storm, there would need to be a total of 10 storms on the ghost. Storm hits for 10 damage every half a second for 4 seconds.
Wow you can't read and you can't argue, awesome, now pointing out that I employed ad hominem against you in addition to my valid points because of how frustratingly ignorant you are is really going to help you!
You ignored me again and focused on the only point that you have, which I have already semi conceded, that in a straight up ranged spellcaster fight 1v1 ghosts slightly beat HT. Which is only applicable to straight up theorycrafting assuming that there is no other units on the field giving sight and that emp is always on my finger tips about to be let go and that I always have perfect information...right.
Archons are excellent meat shields and deal significant damage if they manage to get in range, they arent great because of their poor range and high gas cost, but you certainly can't ignore them on the battlefield and drawing an analogy between them and a nuke is outrageous exaggeration,
I said that the injured ghost will die in .25 of a storm, not .25 of a second, and you didn't stick to the core argument you just stuck to the one point about range that your harping on about. Ridiculous.
PS my POV is obviously biased - over-biased is a redundant statement.
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a lotta whining and crying going on in this thread by T over the amulate and that HT are OP blah blah blah it's game over...
hey... top teir tech units like HT should crush low teir units like marines! make something else after 40 mins into the game! You only have a whole tech tree
ROAR BANSHEES ARE OP THEY FORCE ME TO MAKE A ROBO CUZ P HAS NO OTHER DETECTION NERF NERF NERF
sound stupid? yah, thought so
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On December 19 2010 15:25 statikg wrote:pointing out that I employed ad hominem On December 19 2010 15:25 statikg wrote:I have already semi conceded On December 19 2010 15:25 statikg wrote:your harping on about .
On December 19 2010 15:25 statikg wrote:PS my POV is obviously biased - over-biased is a redundant statement.
So lyke, if i usededed fancy SAT words like you does that'd makering me smartedly and more righted?
Oh yah... one mo' thing foo. If you gonna use all dem smart words to make it sound lyke dis is super serious debating:
your = possessive you
you're = you are
lesson?! Speaka da simple engrish while bein all effective and ish and you sound smarter than a dictionary quoting prep school ass
Also. GHOSTS OP NERF NERF NERF 
User was temp banned for this post.
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On December 13 2010 22:49 EasternSun wrote:
Funny how conveniently you choose such replays,i can show you tons of pro replays in where terrans decimate protoss,not to speak what it is the matchup in the highest lvls.True it is terran favored - the facts shows that.
As for those matchups,when the two pro players are going at it,we can assume they have almost the same lvl of macro,so it's decided pretty much from unit combinations and in-game decisions as well as micro.
Seems to me another QQ thread,learn what in-game decisions and unit combination are good and what are bad at certain cases,then come again QQ-ing about the matchup.I suggest go and find replays where terrans wins(there are so many of them),and then come and post useless threads.That way your time will be better spent,instead of digging 2 or 3 replays where protoss wins because of terran player mistakes.
TROLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
goo to battle.net and look up their statistics b4 you state something that aint true (:
User was warned for this post
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If this thread doesn't get back on track from being an storm-vs-emp-omg-imba whine fest really fast, I'm going to lock this faster than Chris Hansen locks up predators. The quote in the OP isn't helping.
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when t is walking around with a shit ton of t1 units and a couple medivacs, toss walks out with t1 and a load of teched up units....... surely the result is obvious?
as a P i think the MU is fine :O
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I just got a brilliant idea. (it might not be brilliant to you guys so please say something)
Marines should start with 40 HP (5 less than they do now) this way Marine/SCV all ins will be a lot weaker and a lot more defendable for zerg players. Also it will make any kind of marine banshee all ins vs protoss easier to defend.
The 2nd change will be make combat shield upgrade give marine 20 HP so they will hav 60 HP, 5 more than what they have now with combat shield.
It will allow them to survive the banelings / collosi / storm easier. Which will help terrans a lot in the mid game or late mid game
ya?
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please lock this thread, there is completley nothing insightfull more in it, just a toss v terran balance disscusion for the last 15 pages
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All-ins that work well doesn't make the unit in it overpowered.
It's an all-in, it's supposed to very hard to stop.
Just because a Korean 4 gate all-in could be very difficult to stop if not scouted early enough doesn't mean gateway units should be reduced in efficiency early on.
60hp marines would be very strong in the early-to-midgame, putting even more focus on Marines.
The problem isn't any single thing, ability or unit.
It's a combination of them.
Just Storm is manageable with Mech/Tanks as is Gateway + Colossi.
Just Chargelots is manageable with Bio + Stim.
Mass Colossi is counterable by Marauders + Vikings.
It's when Storm + Chargelots + Colossi enter the game that Terran ends up with very little that still works against it. Chargelots make Mech redundant (tanks do friendly fire, thors get surrounded), opening the field for Storm and Colossi. Chargelots are best dealt with by Bio + Stim, which die very quickly to Storm and Colossi.
My main issue as a Terran player are Chargelots.
They are so cheap and yet so effective at completely shutting down a whole tech path for Terran, leaving primarily Bio left as a counter, which dies in turn to Colossi or Storm.
The fact that Tanks cost 25 additional gas and require 5 shots to kill one Chargelot doesn't help much either.
Warp-in Storms I'm not sure about.
Against Bio it is devastating, but against Mech it doesn't do all that much, bringing us back again to Chargelots, costing only 100 minerals each.
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EPT
