|
On December 18 2010 06:52 Raiznhell wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2010 06:42 Moja wrote:On December 18 2010 06:37 Raiznhell wrote:
I agree that this thread should be closed simply because of the book-long poster because he's just doing too much talking and not enough thinking. And PaleBlueDot FYI I'm diamond if that matters I think around the 2k range but i haven't checked my rating in a long time and just been playing the PTR which is full of good players. If it means anything I've been matched against player's like Kawaiirice for example so ye.
You're arguments against Mech TvP are bad you assume tanks still overkill and all that garbage and you completely disregard the bunkers holding off the Zlots. I mean yeah 1 tank shooting at 1 zlot it takes 5 hits perhaps... but 16 tanks with 10 hellions and 3-4 filled bunkers with marines 20 zlots will charge and evaporate yeah they'll maybe take out a bunker damage your hellions maybe even take a tank or 2 but the result is cost effective if you had good placement. And they die so fast that your tanks will continue to smash everything else and of course this is all situational. you will not win 100% of TvP's with mech or even 100% of confrontations. Nobody can be like oh you just do this an you win.
You're also arguing against the slow push mentality of Mech like SC:BW never existed... you build more turrets than you can shake a stick at around everything and along your push...Have you ever watched proleague? And better yet in SC2 for Mech play is that vikings fly unlike Goliaths and there is no arbiter just a very slow Mothership for recalls.
I've faced everything from Mass collossi to DTs to motherships to Voidray-Carriers to mass immotrals and tons of phase prism warp-ins and i can tell you. At PRO LEVEL Mech is probably not great however NaDa and SlayerSBoxeR have used heavy tank builds. but bronze-2k diamond Mech is definitely a strong style assuming you are the better macro player. It's just a style that help if you tend to do late game. If you're really good at timings and early game pressure i full out 100% recommend you do MMM and get in your opponents face until he crumbles but i tend to play for the 4-6 base length games lol. Please post replays. I'm mostly curious how you defend a FE (which imo is necessary for mech vs P). I'll play some more games and save them and post replays at some point Because i don't regularly save replays but the PTR is absolutely full of protoss. As for a FE I'll have to wait and see because while I've faced a lot of things 14 nexus and such like that hasn't come up yet cuz people know it's suicide to 3rax. Because i scout after building my first depot I might probably do a 1/1/1 pressure push or something or use the marine from my barracks to do a bunker rush. for something like a 1 gate FE i might just keep on the same track and try to take a faster third than him but 1/1/1 i think with the raven kills 1 gate FE similar to Flash's FD Terran build in SC1
I meant Terran FE-ing, but I guess you open with 1/1/1 instead?
How do you reach critical mass of tanks fast enough to:
a) prevent the protoss from taking a 2nd and 3rd, or just harass to stay even on economy
b) defend your own expo against a mass charge-lot response (typically 2 base timing attack from protoss after some kind of expand)
When I was experimenting with mech I would open siege expand, but I would die to a chargelot rush around the time I had 5 tanks and was just saturating my expo. I also had no way to punish expands by the protoss, and was vulnerable to drops (but i had built in safety against air). That's why I avoid mech now despite slow tank pushes being pretty good once you're at around 12-16 tanks.
|
On December 18 2010 09:07 Moja wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2010 06:52 Raiznhell wrote:On December 18 2010 06:42 Moja wrote:On December 18 2010 06:37 Raiznhell wrote:
I agree that this thread should be closed simply because of the book-long poster because he's just doing too much talking and not enough thinking. And PaleBlueDot FYI I'm diamond if that matters I think around the 2k range but i haven't checked my rating in a long time and just been playing the PTR which is full of good players. If it means anything I've been matched against player's like Kawaiirice for example so ye.
You're arguments against Mech TvP are bad you assume tanks still overkill and all that garbage and you completely disregard the bunkers holding off the Zlots. I mean yeah 1 tank shooting at 1 zlot it takes 5 hits perhaps... but 16 tanks with 10 hellions and 3-4 filled bunkers with marines 20 zlots will charge and evaporate yeah they'll maybe take out a bunker damage your hellions maybe even take a tank or 2 but the result is cost effective if you had good placement. And they die so fast that your tanks will continue to smash everything else and of course this is all situational. you will not win 100% of TvP's with mech or even 100% of confrontations. Nobody can be like oh you just do this an you win.
You're also arguing against the slow push mentality of Mech like SC:BW never existed... you build more turrets than you can shake a stick at around everything and along your push...Have you ever watched proleague? And better yet in SC2 for Mech play is that vikings fly unlike Goliaths and there is no arbiter just a very slow Mothership for recalls.
I've faced everything from Mass collossi to DTs to motherships to Voidray-Carriers to mass immotrals and tons of phase prism warp-ins and i can tell you. At PRO LEVEL Mech is probably not great however NaDa and SlayerSBoxeR have used heavy tank builds. but bronze-2k diamond Mech is definitely a strong style assuming you are the better macro player. It's just a style that help if you tend to do late game. If you're really good at timings and early game pressure i full out 100% recommend you do MMM and get in your opponents face until he crumbles but i tend to play for the 4-6 base length games lol. Please post replays. I'm mostly curious how you defend a FE (which imo is necessary for mech vs P). I'll play some more games and save them and post replays at some point Because i don't regularly save replays but the PTR is absolutely full of protoss. As for a FE I'll have to wait and see because while I've faced a lot of things 14 nexus and such like that hasn't come up yet cuz people know it's suicide to 3rax. Because i scout after building my first depot I might probably do a 1/1/1 pressure push or something or use the marine from my barracks to do a bunker rush. for something like a 1 gate FE i might just keep on the same track and try to take a faster third than him but 1/1/1 i think with the raven kills 1 gate FE similar to Flash's FD Terran build in SC1 I meant Terran FE-ing, but I guess you open with 1/1/1 instead? How do you reach critical mass of tanks fast enough to: a) prevent the protoss from taking a 2nd and 3rd b) defend your own expo against a mass charge-lot response (typically 2 base timing attack from protoss after some kind of expand) When I was experimenting with mech I would open siege expand, but I would die to a chargelot rush around the time I had 5 tanks and was just saturating my expo. I also had no way to punish expands by the protoss, and was vulnerable to drops (but i had built in safety against air). That's why I avoid mech now despite slow tank pushes being pretty good once you're at around 12-16 tanks.
OH you ment how i FE?
k so i go the regular 16 orbital cept as soon as i get my 50 gas i pull SCV to mine minerals and get a reactor on my barracks and then get a CC soon as i drop the CC down IN-BASE i immediately put SCVs back on gas and get a second refinery and get my first factory from which i get a siege tank and siege tech immediately upon tech lab completetion.
While constantly making marines and SCVs i get my engineering bay up Right after my factory ESPECIALLY on scrap station and steppes of war for DT tech and fast air or drops/warp-ins.
As i plant my CC down at my natural I make a bunker or 2 and usually get my first tank out and sieged plus a turret to defend my natural. from there after I've saturated my natural i drop 3 more factories and a starport and then have 3 factories with tech labs and 1 with reactor and my starport i get a reactor and i start pre-ig for hellions and from then on I just crank out a butt load of units slowly creeping to get a third with bunkers and turrets and getting an armory up whenever possible to get the much needed +2 vehicle weapons needed before you can actually do any tiye of moving out with your army. I also send hellions out for harassment and scouting every now and then and also getting a splash of vikings for void rays and collossi.
there's also been occasions where I've done something as rash as 15CC before Rax If I'm feeling super confident but 4 gate or 3 gate robo and your probably gunna die if he has the brains to just walk past ur bunkers into your main or something.
I find it's the FE so fast that really makes Mech work because i can get more tanks out faster to get that third up and once that third is up I feel in great shape from that point on.
|
On December 18 2010 09:32 Raiznhell wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2010 09:07 Moja wrote:On December 18 2010 06:52 Raiznhell wrote:On December 18 2010 06:42 Moja wrote:On December 18 2010 06:37 Raiznhell wrote:
I agree that this thread should be closed simply because of the book-long poster because he's just doing too much talking and not enough thinking. And PaleBlueDot FYI I'm diamond if that matters I think around the 2k range but i haven't checked my rating in a long time and just been playing the PTR which is full of good players. If it means anything I've been matched against player's like Kawaiirice for example so ye.
You're arguments against Mech TvP are bad you assume tanks still overkill and all that garbage and you completely disregard the bunkers holding off the Zlots. I mean yeah 1 tank shooting at 1 zlot it takes 5 hits perhaps... but 16 tanks with 10 hellions and 3-4 filled bunkers with marines 20 zlots will charge and evaporate yeah they'll maybe take out a bunker damage your hellions maybe even take a tank or 2 but the result is cost effective if you had good placement. And they die so fast that your tanks will continue to smash everything else and of course this is all situational. you will not win 100% of TvP's with mech or even 100% of confrontations. Nobody can be like oh you just do this an you win.
You're also arguing against the slow push mentality of Mech like SC:BW never existed... you build more turrets than you can shake a stick at around everything and along your push...Have you ever watched proleague? And better yet in SC2 for Mech play is that vikings fly unlike Goliaths and there is no arbiter just a very slow Mothership for recalls.
I've faced everything from Mass collossi to DTs to motherships to Voidray-Carriers to mass immotrals and tons of phase prism warp-ins and i can tell you. At PRO LEVEL Mech is probably not great however NaDa and SlayerSBoxeR have used heavy tank builds. but bronze-2k diamond Mech is definitely a strong style assuming you are the better macro player. It's just a style that help if you tend to do late game. If you're really good at timings and early game pressure i full out 100% recommend you do MMM and get in your opponents face until he crumbles but i tend to play for the 4-6 base length games lol. Please post replays. I'm mostly curious how you defend a FE (which imo is necessary for mech vs P). I'll play some more games and save them and post replays at some point Because i don't regularly save replays but the PTR is absolutely full of protoss. As for a FE I'll have to wait and see because while I've faced a lot of things 14 nexus and such like that hasn't come up yet cuz people know it's suicide to 3rax. Because i scout after building my first depot I might probably do a 1/1/1 pressure push or something or use the marine from my barracks to do a bunker rush. for something like a 1 gate FE i might just keep on the same track and try to take a faster third than him but 1/1/1 i think with the raven kills 1 gate FE similar to Flash's FD Terran build in SC1 I meant Terran FE-ing, but I guess you open with 1/1/1 instead? How do you reach critical mass of tanks fast enough to: a) prevent the protoss from taking a 2nd and 3rd b) defend your own expo against a mass charge-lot response (typically 2 base timing attack from protoss after some kind of expand) When I was experimenting with mech I would open siege expand, but I would die to a chargelot rush around the time I had 5 tanks and was just saturating my expo. I also had no way to punish expands by the protoss, and was vulnerable to drops (but i had built in safety against air). That's why I avoid mech now despite slow tank pushes being pretty good once you're at around 12-16 tanks. OH you ment how i FE? k so i go the regular 16 orbital cept as soon as i get my 50 gas i pull SCV to mine minerals and get a reactor on my barracks and then get a CC soon as i drop the CC down IN-BASE i immediately put SCVs back on gas and get a second refinery and get my first factory from which i get a siege tank and siege tech immediately upon tech lab completetion. While constantly making marines and SCVs i get my engineering bay up Right after my factory ESPECIALLY on scrap station and steppes of war for DT tech and fast air or drops/warp-ins. As i plant my CC down at my natural I make a bunker or 2 and usually get my first tank out and sieged plus a turret to defend my natural. from there after I've saturated my natural i drop 3 more factories and a starport and then have 3 factories with tech labs and 1 with reactor and my starport i get a reactor and i start pre-ig for hellions and from then on I just crank out a butt load of units slowly creeping to get a third with bunkers and turrets and getting an armory up whenever possible to get the much needed +2 vehicle weapons needed before you can actually do any tiye of moving out with your army. I also send hellions out for harassment and scouting every now and then and also getting a splash of vikings for void rays and collossi. there's also been occasions where I've done something as rash as 15CC before Rax If I'm feeling super confident but 4 gate or 3 gate robo and your probably gunna die if he has the brains to just walk past ur bunkers into your main or something. I find it's the FE so fast that really makes Mech work because i can get more tanks out faster to get that third up and once that third is up I feel in great shape from that point on.
If you want to 15CC don't place it at your natural, just use it as part of your wall-in. If you scout 4gate or 3gate robo then stay at your wall and just use it for extra SCV prod + mules. If not, then float it down. If you see 4gate then just get 3 rax afterwards, first with tech lab (for quick stim), second both with reactors, then tech asap to medivacs in case he decided to sentry contain. You'll be ahead.
|
i think people are thinking too hard about huge mid field battles and not thinking enough about more situational/tactics.
yeah blue flame hellions kind of suck in a big battle because of tank splash, but they aren't TERRIBLE for their cost and they give the option to go on a lot of min line raids.
yeah tanks aren't that great because you have to siege in time, and they can splash friendly units, BUT a good player will target priority units (like templar, stalkers). a good player can siege tanks out of vision of toss and lure the toss in and with a critical mass of tanks crush a sizable portion of toss army without their noticing.
Also I think marine tank expand is one of the few openings that are safe against EVERY toss opening (dt's, blink stalker, 4 gate, 3 gate robo, 2 gate void, 1 gate colli rush). Doesn't mean you have to stay tanks all game, but it's tactics like these that CHANGE throughout the game that can often determine the winner as opposed to 200/200 death ball vs. death ball.
That said, doesn't mean I know if things are imbalanced or not, but there's a lot of qq and resignation from people who can improve in ways clearly unrelated to these "imbalance" points (better macro, scouting, tactics, etc)
|
Lol @ the idea of mech not being useful in TvP
putting tanks on the nat cliff on delta quad, super useful. bring along an scv to build a few turrets and lol as they send in a warp prism that gets shot down
|
On December 18 2010 12:38 gg all-in wrote:
Lol @ the idea of mech not being useful in TvP
putting tanks on the nat cliff on delta quad, super useful. bring along an scv to build a few turrets and lol as they send in a warp prism that gets shot down
... that's not a mech based build/strategy, that's utilizing a few tanks, please follow the thread ffs.
|
I like how everyone who is arguing for the mech build can not post replays for one reason or another. Ever.
@towers
For example, you say in SC1 tanks did more damage; therefore, in SC2 protoss takes less losses in a retreat for sieged tank based solely on 1 number. You don't take into consideration bonus damage, speed of units, HP of units, and other differences that might make your claim true, false, or undeterminable. It's a logical fallacy.
You are trying to compare an apple to an orange and consider it "proof". You do this a lot in the post, which is why it's not worth responding to.
double edit:
And why not look at the Tyler v Painuser match on Kulas? Painuser goes heavy mech at endgame T and wins. Wouldn't that be a good place to start?
This is one of the dumbest things I have ever read. I don't take into consideration bonus damage? What the hell is that? Bonus damage from tanks is 50 (vs. armored), which is still less, so I do not know what you're getting it. If you meant hellions, sure they get bonus vs. light with blue flame, but the real reason you get them is for the mobility and splash, so when a hellion is hitting just 1 zealot as opposed to 5, it is a problem. And yes I did take into consideration the HP of units, hence me explaining break points for tank attacks on a couple units (stalker/colossus/ a little of immortal), maybe you should read before posting.
Also, I honestly cannot believe that you think you can justify mech as a whole by giving me ONE replay on kulas ravine of all places. Kulas ravine is like a mech players wet dream, and it still only worked SOME of the time. If anything the fact that mech didn't straight up break kulas (it was favored vs. T even without mech, but mech should have made it stupid favored) should be a point to why mech isn't very viable anyway. Don't start complaining about problems with logic when you have delusions of 1 replay making everything okay.
@Raiznhell
I don't know if you people have a problem reading or if this is some kind of new age trolling but I would really enjoy not being accused of saying things I didn't say.
[b]
I'm diamond if that matters I think around the 2k range but i haven't checked my rating in a long time and just been playing the PTR which is full of good players. If it means anything I've been matched against player's like Kawaiirice for example so ye. [/b]
Congrats no being ~2k diamond. So am I. Congrats on playing with Kawaii. So have I. I have even played a couple KOTH's with the guy. While if this is true it probably gives your word more bang for the buck than most other people, you saying the thread needs to be closed because of the arguments I made is blatantly showing off your bias for just not trying to disprove the argument but just flaming instead.
You're arguments against Mech TvP are bad you assume tanks still overkill and all that garbage and you completely disregard the bunkers holding off the Zlots.
I have never ONCE gave even the slightest hint of thinking tanks overkill nor even said the word overkill, not to mention whatever "all that garbage" is. I don't disregard bunkers holding off zealots, in fact, I think if mech is to work bunkers would almost be necessary to help negate the effects of air just smashing into it and their ability to tank damage. When did I disregard this? I believe my main argument points where that tanks are still wasting shots on zealots (even when they engage bunkers) and getting backstabbed.
You're also arguing against the slow push mentality of Mech like SC:BW never existed... you build more turrets than you can shake a stick at around everything and along your push...Have you ever watched proleague? And better yet in SC2 for Mech play is that vikings fly unlike Goliaths and there is no arbiter just a very slow Mothership for recalls.
Honestly I probably haven't given the slow push mentality the credit it deserves, but that's only because i've seen it fail a lot more than I have seen it work. And when did I say that it did not exist in SCBW? In fact I believe I argued for positioning and buildings in front of your tanks which by definition is happening during a slow push. It is true that we have vikings now, but they trade the ability to fly and a long range for having a transition time and being more expensive. It is true that there is no more arbiter, and thank god for that, it was the bane of my existance on iccup, but where the arbiter has gone they have now have colossus and immortals, which seem tailor made to give mech a rough way to go.
At PRO LEVEL Mech is probably not great however NaDa and SlayerSBoxeR have used heavy tank builds. but bronze-2k diamond Mech is definitely a strong style assuming you are the better macro player.
Honestly, if something does not work at the pro level why even use it? The entire point of this, I thought, was that mech isn't viable anymore, and if it doesn't work at the pro level, then that's proof isn't it? Under pro level, there are too many mismanagments as players for things to be evaluated correctly (theoretically of course), so why would anything under pro level matter for analysis? And there is a large difference between tank heavy builds and straight up mech.
But as for actual useful discussion:
Whats the theoretical ideal composition for mech? Like I am not sure we are adding lots of marines and still calling it mech, or just using some pure mix of Tank/Thor/Hellion/Viking. From my experience using thors vs. toss, they only seem good earlier in the game before the colossus ball gets out, so I assume that you may get 1 or so early but them abandon them for more tanks. Marines in bunkers are definitely very good, but do they confine you to a preset position more than is good for you, or perhaps even slow the push down to much? Also whats the opinions on vikings, should they be reactionary to any voidrays / prisms or should they be gotten anyway for harassing purposes (very poor harass imo) or as a "just in case". Also, would BCS be of any use for this? I have no used them for a LONG time, but it seems like just 1 or 2 hovering over your tank line would force more stalker/voidray and since I figure stalkers are not ideally what they want to produce, voidrays that aren't in crazy numbers get killed by vikings, and templar should be fielded less against mech than colossi they might have a place, though if they are worth their cost in gas remains to be seen. Thoughts?
|
I've tested the ideal mech army with thor tank marine full ups 200/200. This ends up still falling apart trivially to a proper P army, not even using carriers. It barely comes out ahead in a super advantageous set up position that no P would ever let you have.
The fact is that tanks are useless massed up against P. 2/3 of P's army deals with tanks trivially. Tanks have 2 roles: timing push against P that FEd, and 2-3 of them for siege an expansion without sacrificing your concave at a position.
The two units that will be the secret to the matchup are ghosts and bluehellions. Both are criminally underused right now. If P is fielding 10+ templar, T needs to be fielding more ghosts as well. Ts are getting way too many medivac - medivac is the least DPS unit out of the starport (13hps). That gas needs to go into ghosts.
As for hellions, they have 3 crucial roles - trade aggressively against zeals at the start of a fight, harass expos efficiently, push into zealtemplar warpin without exposing your remaining bio.
|
The real reason mech was strong in SC1 was spider mines. Spider mines forced a lot of observers (or micro) and even the best players would often lose units to spider mines. It would also make it impossible to crack a Terran's tank line without a good zealot bomb or a good mine drag (which, by the way, is pretty hard to pull off)
In SC2 tanks are 25% harder to get (cause of the gas increase, tanks are generally resource-limited by gas) and yet about that much weaker. In fact, they're about half as good against most units except for armored units. The only units really that tanks do 50 damage to in TvP are colossi, stalkers, and unshielded immortals. Zealots take so many hits to die, and with charge, you don't need warp prisms to break drops. Immortals and colossi also make tank lines very weak; immortals do sick damage while taking almost none, and colossi challenge the range of tanks. Vultures used to be decent vs most units, in big numbers. Now, hellions are okay vs zealots, sentries, HTs, etc, but their RoF is horrible and you can't micro them like you could micro vultures. They're much worse vs stalkers than vultures were against dragoons.
Add on top of that stalker blink and you've basically murdered Terran mech.
To add insult to injury, Terran mech is completely useless against stargate builds, as void rays RAPE tank lines.
|
The myth that terran is strong early game has been proven wrong again today by MC. Toss can be as strong as terran early game.
|
totally agreed. I feel like TvP terran has to open with a build that gives them a strong army because if they dont they just get 4 gate rushed. Like Rain tried to tech and it failed.
4 gate is impossible to stop now that protoss learned to how force field bunkers. So the only way to stop it is just by hving more units. And 1 rax tech or 2 rax expand does not cut it
|
On December 18 2010 07:58 link0 wrote:
Give it up. Every pro gamer that has tried to Mech in T v P has failed miserably. Unless you have discovered some crazy new timing/tactic, you aren't going to change that.
Every pro gamer, huh?
+ Show Spoiler +
Did you see PainUser vs WhiteRa in the Root gaming qfs game 1? Actually, just PainIUser in general. He started losing when he stopped using his mech build.
I respect your achievements, Link0, and I understand that you could whup my butt in a 1v1 or a 4v1 or anything in between, even if I had a head start and three show me the moneys, but I respectfully submit that you may want to think around these corners a bit more.
I'm not even going to respond to that giant 2 page long QQ "rebuttal" of my post. The long and the short of it is, Terran players who think the only way to go is MMM are giving themselves a huge disadvantage. If an opponent knows what you are going to build FROM THE START, he is going to hard-counter it. MMM is the core terran unit composition, but you HAVE to go outwards from there. You can tell me about all the ways to break Terran mech and air units and I can tell you about all the ways you can counter that break and we can go on and on and on like that.
And when I do use banshees (often without cloak), please stop rage-quitting and crying imba. I'm being creative.
Somebody recently demolished me with a marine/raven/cloaked banshee push. After I finished IdrA raging I was really impressed. That is creativity. Actually I like banshees in general -- I hate dealing with them but they're a great harassment unit that can add good DPS in a large engagement.
I also agree that Terran lategame requires exceptional unit control. They really have the most fragile core units, but one really clutch EMP can basically win you the game, and I respect that. Notice how a lot of the pro-gaming tourneys tend to see a lot more Terran representation? When you get up to that level of control, Terran can seriously dominate.
I do kind of agree that this post should be closed -- it's (long since turned into) into a balance rage thread.
|
On December 19 2010 02:05 Vega62a wrote:
Did you see PainUser vs WhiteRa in the Root gaming qfs game 1? Actually, just PainIUser in general. He started losing when he stopped using his mech build.
For the love of god. Can we please stop referencing just one game to prove a point? One game is useless to prove consistency. Honestly I do not keep up with painuser, like ever, but if I could get like, 5 references for games (don't even have to be links, just enough info to search up the game on youtube or whatever), that would be great. (And yes, I looked up a couple painuser replays, but the first 2 I saw he did not use mech so I just stopped looking because I shouldn't have to back your stuff up for you)
|
Has anyone tried this build in TvP?? I used it long ago when i used to play 1v1 ..
You begin by going with the standard 111 build..
-get a banshee or so and go out and do the initial harass
-bunker up ur wall
-get siege mode upgrade as well or cloak upgrade
While harassing with banshees start getting ravens and banshees as gas comes and a few tanks to cover possible counter attacks and while pumping out marines and transition to 222. By the time u got the 222 (get a 2nd starport first and then factory) up and you should have expanded safely.
-barracks constantly produces marines
-starports constantly produces banshees and ravens
-factory constantly produces thors...
Because of the initial banshee harass somehow it may force your opponent to bulk up heavy on stalkers which is what you want. So when u engage in battle get your multiple ravens to put down PDD's to absorb huge damage (should have about 5+ PDD by the time you attack.) banshee should be quite safe from stalkers here. If there are void rays then ur marines and thors can shoot it down.
Spread if necessary (ie: for storm/collosus) usually i would engage at 150+ food and when i come out of the battle, 100% of the time they are all dead and i only lost 20-30 food and then 1a to victory...
I find it stops DT drops very well, because of the early raven.
Effectively stops blink stalker all in, if you use ur PDD to stop it from sniping tanks and force fielding is almost pointless as you got more ravens/banshees and thors, It can also put the opponent in the dark side if you stop the obs from viewing your base with ravens.
But yer that was a few months ago when i was trying wild stuff and haven't played 1v1 for a while . So if anyone wants to give it a shot and report me back if its effective in the higher levels it would be greatly appreciated. I had comments given back that they had no idea how to beat the build a few times... and perhaps if the game prolongs and you have too much resources you can upgrade to 3/3/3 or 4/4/4etc...
|
On December 19 2010 02:39 ilmman wrote:
Has anyone tried this build in TvP?? I used it long ago when i used to play 1v1 ..
You begin by going with the standard 111 build..
-get a banshee or so and go out and do the initial harass
-bunker up ur wall
-get siege mode upgrade as well or cloak upgrade
While harassing with banshees start getting ravens and banshees as gas comes and a few tanks to cover possible counter attacks and while pumping out marines and transition to 222. By the time u got the 222 (get a 2nd starport first and then factory) up and you should have expanded safely.
-barracks constantly produces marines
-starports constantly produces banshees and ravens
-factory constantly produces thors...
Because of the initial banshee harass somehow it may force your opponent to bulk up heavy on stalkers which is what you want. So when u engage in battle get your multiple ravens to put down PDD's to absorb huge damage (should have about 5+ PDD by the time you attack.) banshee should be quite safe from stalkers here. If there are void rays then ur marines and thors can shoot it down.
Spread if necessary (ie: for storm/collosus) usually i would engage at 150+ food and when i come out of the battle, 100% of the time they are all dead and i only lost 20-30 food and then 1a to victory...
I find it stops DT drops very well, because of the early raven.
Effectively stops blink stalker all in, if you use ur PDD to stop it from sniping tanks and force fielding is almost pointless as you got more ravens/banshees and thors, It can also put the opponent in the dark side if you stop the obs from viewing your base with ravens.
But yer that was a few months ago when i was trying wild stuff and haven't played 1v1 for a while . So if anyone wants to give it a shot and report me back if its effective in the higher levels it would be greatly appreciated. I had comments given back that they had no idea how to beat the build a few times... and perhaps if the game prolongs and you have too much resources you can upgrade to 3/3/3 or 4/4/4etc...
would have huge trouble with a chargelot/ht-centric army. thors, tanks and raven all suck against chargelots, and marines arent great against them either if they have to run out of storms all the time.
in general i dont think that more than 2 ravens are ever worth it in tvp. better get more banshees/thors out with that gas.
|
i have beaten chargelot HT armies because of the number of banshees and ravens i got, mainly because they cant atk air and the HT's mobility, but yer the banshee harass should make them more stalker heavy if u constantly harass with banshees i guess...
|
I agree that chargelot / HT armies are incredibly hard to deal with as terrran. As others have said late game zealots are very efficient units, whereas marines are all but worthless. The other gripe I have is how easy it is for protoss to upgrade, terran it seems need to use all 3 tech paths to have a viable army, but protoss can upgrade their entire army using only 1 set of upgrades.
Currently terran rely on their harrass skills to beat protoss, banshees, drops, hellions, etc. It seems that in the new patch faster phoenix and cheaper observers will help protoss shut down the one thing terran have going for them in this match up.
|
On December 19 2010 02:17 PaleBlueDot wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2010 02:05 Vega62a wrote:
Did you see PainUser vs WhiteRa in the Root gaming qfs game 1? Actually, just PainIUser in general. He started losing when he stopped using his mech build.
For the love of god. Can we please stop referencing just one game to prove a point? One game is useless to prove consistency. Honestly I do not keep up with painuser, like ever, but if I could get like, 5 references for games (don't even have to be links, just enough info to search up the game on youtube or whatever), that would be great. (And yes, I looked up a couple painuser replays, but the first 2 I saw he did not use mech so I just stopped looking because I shouldn't have to back your stuff up for you)
MMM is currently the standard so of course whoever looks it up is going to find mainly MMM. Just a few people who trying mech are trying to break the cycle. So obviously its going to be far and few between. Mech has its place bio has its place. Also don't disregard styles even in the pro league the players seem pretty stubborn in getting the strategy they are comfortable with to work.
|
As a zerg player, I've only recently been trying to understand TvP. It SEEMS to me that the transitions out of bio + viking are either weak or unexplored. Psi-storm + warp-in is very strong, and straightforward to use. The terran "counter" to this would seem to be EMP, but in practice ghosts are a very heavy gas investment and are also very hard to use. Other Terran high-tech has its issues: banshees, battlecruisers and ravens are all weak to feedback, while tanks and thors are weak to voidrays and immortals.
|
Go look at battlereport #1.
David Kim uses marauderhellion core, with air support.
I can definitely imagine that this is what blizzard might have intended/balanced around.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
