TvP – A Terran’s view - Page 19

On December 16 2010 20:28 sleepingdog wrote:


True to some extent, some possible solutions:

a) Force units that can NOT be warped in. This is why I also think T needs to incorporate mech more. Mech forces air and air needs quite some time to be re-built.
b) Terran is much more mobile which is why I don't see why terran shouldn't try to fight at the expansions of protoss while outexpanding him. Some maps don't allow outexpanding, which can cause problems indeed.

Zerg also can reinforce insanely fast, nevertheless you don't read that many complaints about instantly reinforced 200/200 zerg-forces. Fixing this would require changing the whole warptech-mechanism, I doubt this is do-able since it touches core gameplay mechanics.

On December 18 2010 00:02 OutlaW- wrote:

rofl mech doesnt force air at all mech is just fucking terrible against protoss

On December 18 2010 02:02 Offhand wrote:

Thors != mech as a whole

On December 13 2010 23:09 Nakama wrote:
Im a 2300 Diamond T and my main Problem in Tvp is the Zealot.I would say that i play a macro oriented style and i often try to get my 3 up as soon as possible normaly it works good 4me( i open with 1/1/1 sjow style) In the beginning the zelot isnt a big Problem, u can kite it easily and a few tanks shut down most agresion toss can throw at u in the early stages of the game.
However when the game last longer i simply die to mass zealot. When both have their 3 up it becomes rly hard 4 me tp spend my mins in time and i often end up having 1000 overmins and 0 gas.
Marines just die to collosi or ht in this stage of the game and arent cost effective if u dont mangae to kill all high tier units at the beginning of the fight.
The toss however can mass whatever high tech unit he wants and spend his overmins very easily into mass zealot, which once they have legs are the best dps u can get in my opinion. So while im having trouble to counter ht or colossi and spend most my resources into ghosts or vikings, my bioball jsut dies to spammed zealots.
The only asnwer i can think of are upgraded Hellions, but they didnt work well 4 me the times i tried them.
I only win these kind of games if the toss decides to attack me and i win the fight. If he decides to play defensivly i jsut dont stand a chance, every drop just gets shut down casue he can wrap in 5 lots/hts and defend it till reinforcments arrive-


Tl;dr: Zealots are a way to good mineral dump + the overhelming strengh of high tier toss units makes it nearly impossible 4 me to kill defensive toss palyers
Conclusion: Kill him in 15 min or die

On December 18 2010 04:21 statikg wrote:
Silly protoss -
Tanks dont force immortals, the just force more chargelots, tanks < chargelots the base mineral dump of toss, tanks do little damage to chargelots, which engage nearly instantly, then the tanks kill your own units while trying to kill the zealots! Such an awesome strategy! If tanks did 50 damage to zealots still, then maybe this would be ok, but right now it still takes 5tank shots to kill 1 zealot, zealots close within one round of fire, so you kill maybe 6 zealots being generous before the protoss army engages with 10tanks (which is quite a large number to mass up) and this is assuming you can convince protoss to attack straight into your entire army since your super immobile and lose the ability to kite as well! Then since you are so helpful in killing your own meatshield its not like before the protoss army is ripping up your glass cannon expensive tanks which die basically instantly.

Its only newb protoss with no zealots that get beat by tanks.

This is why you see bio into the late game.

Ravens vs HTs? are you kidding me, if you have alot of HT you have few stalkers, casting range of PDD is short and casting range of feedback is long, there goes a really expensive unit potentially for nothing.

On December 18 2010 03:11 Vega62a wrote:
The thing I see most often with in TVP matchups, from the lowest to the highest levels, is terran players getting stuck on MMM balls with insufficient mech and air support. The issue, I think, is that in the early game players tend to get a lot of bunkers to dump their minerals, and it makes them resistant to transitioning out of barracks-heavy units in the late game.

As a protoss player, I will tell you straight away that more than four or five tanks backing up your push can be devastating. The more tanks you have, the fewer colossi a Protoss player can have (they will be using their robo time on immortals if they know what's good for them.) In addition, and this is very micro-intensive, but a player with really clutch EMPs can easily beat a protoss ball if they rely on templar. (Or immortals, for that matter; why don't more Terran emp immortals?) So a mid to late-game force with more of an emphasis on ghosts and tanks with marauders acting as a meat shield (I agree with an earlier poster, you really need to transition away from marines in the late game) is pretty viable against a protoss ball.

The terran needs to push slowly and deliberately, leapfrogging his tanks and constantly reinforcing, and picking off templar at every opportunity, as you frequently see in the proleagues, and that push becomes harder and harder to stop. Again, I cannot emphasize enough, tanks. With that 60 armored damage they will chew through a stalker-heavy army, which is most protoss armies.

Overall, I don't see a lot of creative play from the Terran that call protoss imba. They tend to stick to MMM balls, neglecting tank leapfrogging, neglecting ravens (seriously? 3 ravens at high energy can drop pdds to great, amazing effect against those stalker-heavy armies, and I know you have to maneuver them around templar, so maneuver them around templar) neglecting just a few cloaked banshees in the mix to snipe, neglecting good use of emp, neglecting a few blue-flame hellions to eat zealots for breakfast, neglecting to realize that MMMs are better in smaller groups and get comparatively weaker the larger the numbers get. Neglecting ANY of these things (I think all of these things put together would also be a problem :| ). And therefore, when they get to the late game they still have an early-game army, and of course the toss is going to roll them.

tl;dr: I think Raiznhell has the right idea when it comes to good TVP; lots of factories, fewer barracks, the slow push, with turrets and bunkers and autorepair.

On December 18 2010 05:36 PaleBlueDot wrote:


This may be the most incorrect thing I have ever read in my entire life.

The thing I see most often with in TVP matchups, from the lowest to the highest levels, is terran players getting stuck on MMM balls with insufficient mech and air support. The issue, I think, is that in the early game players tend to get a lot of bunkers to dump their minerals, and it makes them resistant to transitioning out of barracks-heavy units in the late game.

There is no "getting stuck" on MMM balls. MMM balls work while mech does not, it is as simple as that. It's not like they just go infantry because they are not used to mech, it just doesn't work. I implore anyone to prove me wrong about mech not working (aside from little gimmicky timing attacks such as the 2xthor attack) by posting some replays, and not just 1, a couple. I would love to see this because I would love to not use MMM every game against Toss. As for getting a lot of bunkers to dump minerals, no. No one does that. I do not know what you are watching, but it can't be SC2 because no one goes "Well I have 400 extra minerals, I think I am short on bunkers".

As a protoss player, I will tell you straight away that more than four or five tanks backing up your push can be devastating. The more tanks you have, the fewer colossi a Protoss player can have (they will be using their robo time on immortals if they know what's good for them.)

As a protoss player, I would assume you know that colossi maul tanks just as well as immortals do. The point is that when T has to add tanks, P does not have to change anything. Nothing at all. They can do the standard build and it will work just fine, which may be the problem. Zealots/Sentry + Stalker + Colossi will beat Tank/Marine/Marauder/Vac just as well as anything else. The more tanks T has, the less infantry (due to higher supply / higher cost) which just makes the situation that much worse. That is compounded by the fact that either they are coming 1 at a time from your factory the you needed for your starport, meaning if all your tanks die they wont be coming back any time soon, or you invested in another factory which is a serious drain on resources for the damage they cause. The problem is that when you sacrifice infantry production for the tanks, there is no reason, because they do comparable damage, and infantry are more mobile, durable, and versatile.

In addition, and this is very micro-intensive, but a player with really clutch EMPs can easily beat a protoss ball if they rely on templar. (Or immortals, for that matter; why don't more Terran emp immortals?) So a mid to late-game force with more of an emphasis on ghosts and tanks with marauders acting as a meat shield (I agree with an earlier poster, you really need to transition away from marines in the late game) is pretty viable against a protoss ball.

People used to play the "Ghost-Tank" builds. I remember it from beta and it may have bled into retail as well. You know why you don't see it anymore? Because it does not work. Ghost-Tank is an amazing drain on gas, doesn't accurately counter colossus anyway, and leaves a gaping hole for air units to exploit. Ghost/Tank/Marauder will eat through gas like crazy, be extremely vulnerable to heavy zealot/colossus builds (unless you have like 40 ghosts, but then you have a max of like 8 marauders and a tank for support). People say that ghosts are good units, but for their cost, after that EMP goes off they just are not worth it. I've said this for so long I am blue in the face, there is a HUGE difference between killing units straight up (storm), and just leaving them damaged (EMP). The difference is the DPS changes. Marines die, lowering DPS, and everything else is damaged. EMP doesn't lower DPS unless templar are specifically hit, but do leave everything hit damaged (though I can argue that the higher HP/shield of toss units make the damage taken more negligable). And people do EMP immortals, but that just removes their ability to make tanks complete shit, they still walk all over them.


The terran needs to push slowly and deliberately, leapfrogging his tanks and constantly reinforcing, and picking off templar at every opportunity, as you frequently see in the proleagues, and that push becomes harder and harder to stop. Again, I cannot emphasize enough, tanks. With that 60 armored damage they will chew through a stalker-heavy army, which is most protoss armies.


Sure. Lets go back to the slow push. I'm going to reference back to BW because yes, the same concepts do apply to show the differences that make or break the strategy. In BW, the Terran pushes out, used mines/buildings/map placement (ledges, chokes) to supplement the push. The power come from that if the P attacks, he either has to dedicate himself to it, or lose tons of units to tank fire retreating. It isn't the same now. Spider mines are gone, so zealot losses are very much less severe. Tanks do less damage, so that's less dead units on approach / retreating. Colossus, which are the big problem, have 9 range, 350hp (combined), and are mobile. This means that unless the tanks are all lined up, there is a large chance that all your tanks are not going to be able to hit the colossus at the same time. Having 3 tanks his colossus, and 4 hit just gateway units is really going to get your push mauled. If they have templar, how do you suppose they are going to get picked off? Tank shots? EMP? Snipe? Only one of those really outright kills them (snipe) and the rest just leave a templar there, which stops storm sure, but if you don't have tons of infantry in the first place, why have storm? That and 60 armored damage? 60? That changed so long ago its insane. Its 50. 50. That means stalkers take another shot to kill, colossus take another shot if you let even 1 shield point regenerate (not to mention tank splash can only hit 1 colossus at once if its focus fired on them, which it should be). How is that even going to theoretically be cost effective?

Overall, I don't see a lot of creative play from the Terran that call protoss imba. They tend to stick to MMM balls, neglecting tank leapfrogging, neglecting ravens (seriously? 3 ravens at high energy can drop pdds to great, amazing effect against those stalker-heavy armies, and I know you have to maneuver them around templar, so maneuver them around templar) neglecting just a few cloaked banshees in the mix to snipe, neglecting good use of emp, neglecting a few blue-flame hellions to eat zealots for breakfast, neglecting to realize that MMMs are better in smaller groups and get comparatively weaker the larger the numbers get. Neglecting ANY of these things (I think all of these things put together would also be a problem :| ). And therefore, when they get to the late game they still have an early-game army, and of course the toss is going to roll them.

Once again. T uses MMM balls because they work. It's not "creative play" when you stop using stuff that works to try and force strategies that have failed in the past. That is just embarassing your opponent. If you can find something legitimate, great, I would love to play something besides MMM against Toss. But people have tried, and aside from quick little timings or cheese, mech just does not deliver, not yet anyway. That and you can't even remotely rely on "creative play" to win you your bread and butter macro games. There should be no point where a races chances at a macro game relies on genius movies and creative play to win every time.

As for ravens, I don't know what you are expecting, but so far you have listed tanks, ghosts, marauders, and ravens to use. I HOPE you don't suspect this all to to be done in unison, because I suspect that if it is possible to suck that much gas into both casters (you'll pretty much have to have vacs too, so that's all three), upgrades, and constant tank/rauder production, then it will take tons of bases, so you can just transition into that because you'll need to something to hold the line before then. Sure PDD is great, but it sure is not as game changing as storm, and so far is only used when the spare raven is flying around or in timing attacks.

Cloaked banshees are great, they are probably the next big step in terran metagame as people realize how to exploit their great ground damage. But that is more gas. If you mean using them with your tank/Marauder/Raven/ghost combo, then you are out of your mind. If you mean use them with standard MMM balls, or, in some form of thor timing push, people have been doing that for weeks now. So what then? You say terran neglects things. You say we need tanks for general fighting, marauders to survive storm, clutch EMP's to even the odds, cloaked banshees to put on the hurt, blue-flame hellions when the zealots come (but just a few, like you said) but it should be painfully obvious that all this is not realistic at all. All of those units require gas, and most of them require lots of it. That limits any form of transition into something that must be planned out. What if there is a deviation? What if toss goes some form of mass chargelot garbage? You say we need to use our units better, pull out some blue flame hellions, but where do these come from? You say we need to use tanks more, so its either we have tons of factories, or tank production stops. Even if we have tons of factories, we can either react with hellions, which means we start blue-flame when we suspect zealots (which takes a HUGE chunk of gas for something with such specific application) and it delays anything else that takes gas and burns resources. You say use a small amount? That does not cut it. Hellions are strange, either you have a lot and they do a lot of damage to their target unit (light compositions), or you have a few of them for harass and they nothing unless your opponent messes up. Hellions are not gold against zealots anyway, their splash in linear and the damage comes in slow bursts, leaving tons of half HP zealots to charge into a line where hellions have effectively no splash at all, and then they get raped by zealots and tank splash. It is pretty clear that your knowledge of terran mechanics is far far worse than you are leading us to believe, so please, try to know what you are talking about.

On December 18 2010 05:11 Raiznhell wrote:


When you go tanks you also go hellions as well because you know Zealots are going to bust your tanks and Hellions make zealots a joke even with charge and the bunkers with marines also stop alot of the zealots from charging your tanks.

He is right though that a lot of protoss will see a lot of tanks and go right for 2 robo immortal but if any protoss reads this...DON'T. I have never lost a TvP going Mech because of immortals they are just downright bad against Mech which is extremely counter-intuitive. I have literally had something around 12+immortals with a bunch of chargelots smash into my Bunker/hellion/tank position and hardly take out anything before being melted and yeah...not even any ghosts so i can only imagine the hurt of immortals against ghostmech.

On December 18 2010 05:42 cilinder007 wrote:
a lot of flaws in logic in this post just dont have the time to write 20 paragraphs here

On December 18 2010 06:37 Raiznhell wrote:
I agree that this thread should be closed simply because of the book-long poster because he's just doing too much talking and not enough thinking. And PaleBlueDot FYI I'm diamond if that matters I think around the 2k range but i haven't checked my rating in a long time and just been playing the PTR which is full of good players. If it means anything I've been matched against player's like Kawaiirice for example so ye.

You're arguments against Mech TvP are bad you assume tanks still overkill and all that garbage and you completely disregard the bunkers holding off the Zlots. I mean yeah 1 tank shooting at 1 zlot it takes 5 hits perhaps... but 16 tanks with 10 hellions and 3-4 filled bunkers with marines 20 zlots will charge and evaporate yeah they'll maybe take out a bunker damage your hellions maybe even take a tank or 2 but the result is cost effective if you had good placement. And they die so fast that your tanks will continue to smash everything else and of course this is all situational. you will not win 100% of TvP's with mech or even 100% of confrontations. Nobody can be like oh you just do this an you win.

You're also arguing against the slow push mentality of Mech like SC:BW never existed... you build more turrets than you can shake a stick at around everything and along your push...Have you ever watched proleague? And better yet in SC2 for Mech play is that vikings fly unlike Goliaths and there is no arbiter just a very slow Mothership for recalls.

I've faced everything from Mass collossi to DTs to motherships to Voidray-Carriers to mass immotrals and tons of phase prism warp-ins and i can tell you. At PRO LEVEL Mech is probably not great however NaDa and SlayerSBoxeR have used heavy tank builds. but bronze-2k diamond Mech is definitely a strong style assuming you are the better macro player. It's just a style that help if you tend to do late game. If you're really good at timings and early game pressure i full out 100% recommend you do MMM and get in your opponents face until he crumbles but i tend to play for the 4-6 base length games lol.