• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 22:51
CEST 04:51
KST 11:51
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Tournament Spotlight: FEL Cracow 20252Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202576RSL Season 1 - Final Week9[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18
Community News
Google Play ASL (Season 20) Announced18BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams10Weekly Cups (July 14-20): Final Check-up0Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed19Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll8
StarCraft 2
General
#1: Maru - Greatest Players of All Time Power Rank - Esports World Cup 2025 What tournaments are world championships? Tournament Spotlight: FEL Cracow 2025 I offer completely free coaching services
Tourneys
Esports World Cup 2025 $25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced $5,000 WardiTV Summer Championship 2025 WardiTV Mondays FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $10,000 live event
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation #239 Bad Weather Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava
Brood War
General
Google Play ASL (Season 20) Announced BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BW General Discussion Flash Announces (and Retracts) Hiatus From ASL Dewalt's Show Matches in China
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China CSL Xiamen International Invitational [CSLPRO] It's CSLAN Season! - Last Chance
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers [G] Mineral Boosting Does 1 second matter in StarCraft?
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Total Annihilation Server - TAForever [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok) Path of Exile
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
UK Politics Mega-thread US Politics Mega-thread Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread
Fan Clubs
INnoVation Fan Club SKT1 Classic Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
[\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment" Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
TeamLiquid Team Shirt On Sale The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Ping To Win? Pings And Their…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Socialism Anyone?
GreenHorizons
Eight Anniversary as a TL…
Mizenhauer
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 610 users

TvP – A Terran’s view - Page 17

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
Post a Reply
Prev 1 15 16 17 18 19 41 Next All
eatpraylove
Profile Joined October 2010
United States53 Posts
December 16 2010 04:48 GMT
#321
Just finished watching Husky's cast of the PvT between Huk & NEXExcrement from a week ago:



+ Show Spoiler +
The unfortunately-named Terran beat Huk's zealots, stalkers, colossi & HT's with MMM, ghosts & vikings only. I don't think he made a single factory unit.
Antisocialmunky
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States5912 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-16 05:15:54
December 16 2010 05:11 GMT
#322
Yes, the only thing that T seems to be able to do it seems... Everything else just falls flat due to the late game air switch.

Its an okay way to play but its problematic when it becomes the only way to play...
[゚n゚] SSSSssssssSSsss ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Marine/Raven Guide:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=163605
Foogs
Profile Joined April 2009
40 Posts
December 16 2010 06:55 GMT
#323
On December 16 2010 14:11 Antisocialmunky wrote:
Yes, the only thing that T seems to be able to do it seems... Everything else just falls flat due to the late game air switch.

Its an okay way to play but its problematic when it becomes the only way to play...



Well I guess we're getting closer to perfection then since that's all that sc1:bw tvp was. The same f-cking thing every game.
Pepe-
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany87 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-16 06:58:28
December 16 2010 06:56 GMT
#324
Wow dente, I played you some days ago and you flamed me because I wasnt able to give you an advice how to beat p, so I watched the replay and you just lost because of big mistakes...

You tried mech and at the first big fight you got into your tanks werent sieged at first and there was nothing to block for them. Your thors stand in the back...
Later you did nothing when I was mass expanding and you got totally owned by storm into your mineral lines by just 2 pylons...

Edit: Also you didnt get more than +1 atk upgrades, whats really silly for mech...
sleepingdog
Profile Joined August 2008
Austria6145 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-16 09:54:51
December 16 2010 09:52 GMT
#325
On December 16 2010 10:01 refraxion wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 16 2010 07:42 sleepingdog wrote:
On December 16 2010 06:26 Dente wrote:
OP here. For me the topic can be closed. Conclusion in my opinion:
anything else then bio doesn't work that well against protoss. It's logical that tier 3 protoss counters this. A sollution would be a mechbuff and / or a battlecruiser buff. Ofcourse we shouldn't forget about TvZ too.


For me this game shows, that TvP is still way, WAY underdeveloped in lategame:

http://www.root-gaming.com/replay/qxc-vs-kiwikaki-shakuras-plateau

Until now it is one of the following:
a) Terran timing pushs, either T wins or P defends and has advantage
b) P goes quick colossi, T counters with vikings, P either loses or transitions into templars: T still goes mass-bio and sometimes wins, most times loses
c) P goes quick templar, T goes mass-bio and either wins quickly with a push or nearly always loses in the long run
d) T goes pure mech and nearly always loses

I'm not saying what qxc does is the new state of the art TvP lategame. I'm saying, please, LOOK at what he does against an extraordinary toss player - why not try to implement stuff he does and made working in lategame?
Banshees force phoenixes, so why not follow it up with some thors instead of just mass MM?
BCs force void rays and/or blink stalkers which cuts painfully in the mass-chargelot/HT combo, every toss strives for....simply because toss then has to implement some anti-air.



So what you're saying is that for a protoss to "win" they are outplaying the Terran (In your earlier posts)?

This I do not agree with at all.

I just think the match-up right now is still maturing -- the game hasn't been out long enough for everything to settle yet. It'll constantly change and there will be ways for T's to beat P's and P's to beat T's.

Just like the FotM build which consists of chargelots (a huge ball) with mass HT's.


Where do I claim that protoss only wins when they are outplaying terran?

I say (and this is a huge difference) when protoss stays EVEN during midgame, then they do in fact outplay the terran, because nothing can overcome MMM in midgame before colossi reach a critical mass or storm is out. What I'm saying is, that it should be standard for terran to enter lategame one base ahead. If they don't manage to achieve that, they did something wrong. Same as if zerg stays on equal bases with other races...they just lose. Nothing wrong with zerg being one base ahead of you. Same with TvP, if I'm P and T stays level with me on bases (say 3 base vs 3 base, I don't even care about gold since gas is so much more important) then I feel very safe going into lategame.
If T "not" uses their midgame advantage that MMM offers to boost their economy, then yes, P has outplayed them. Right now the funny thing is, that 90% of the terrans try to bust down the P-natural with their superior forces. But die to forcefields. Now just think about terran....NOT attacking, but quickly going to 4 bases? Do you really think toss would challenge the T before he has a critical mass? Imo many terrans throw away their midgame-superiority with battles in very unfortunate positions right now, when instead they should play economicly greedier. Same as BW just the other way round.

Notice, that I DO realize that maps are a painful problem for this right now, there are some maps, where T just can't do that and has to capitalize early on.

To see what I mean watch the game between whitera and blur on meta...it really hurts physicly how T throws the game away by suiciding his units instead of just macroing the fuck up.
http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/(T)bLuR_vs_(P)DuckloadRa_metalopolis_sc2rep_com_20101215/3699

To the guy that mentioned the bratok-games: bratok made numerous small mistakes, for example on the game on meta he has 2-3 bunkers full of marauders during the whole game that stayed there until the end of time. He had more scvs but didn't use them to get significantly ahead in upgrades. Although he was maxed, in the crucial battles he wasn't "really" maxed but had units all over the place, either rallying or being produced. So the army of the toss was in fact larger, not least due to the fact that toss had fewer workers which is quite significant for lategame 200/200 battles.
Micro-wise he lets the vikings fight against the phoenixes instead of focussing down the colossi. The funny thing is, the nightend vs bratok games were quite even for a long time, nightend just made fewer mistakes in the long run which culminated in the last deciding battle. But seriously, the games could've gone either way, if anything they are prove for TvP being quite balanced lol.
"You see....YOU SEE..." © 2010 Sen
PulseSUI
Profile Joined August 2010
Switzerland305 Posts
December 16 2010 10:25 GMT
#326

Here's one thing for certain: you aren't getting out BCs in numbers large enough to make a difference, and ghosts, while effective against HTs/sentries, are actually near worthless against everything else - not even chargelots.


1. BC are, just like Carriers, there to distract.
unlike Carriers however, they are able to actualy deal damage and, with the yamato upgrade, can rid the protoss army of Colossus quit qickly.

2. builttime wise, you can get less then 2 Marauders in the time it takes a ghost, resource wise you could maybe get 3 Marauders during the time it takes to get a Ghost.
a single EMP on a protoss ball can do upwards of 1.25k damage to there shields.
do you honestly believe that your 3 Marauders you could get instead would do 20-40 shots each to even pull equal with what a single well placed EMP could do?

there damage is not there attack, but there spellcaster abillity, wich is like a storm to protoss.. only you can not dodge it and it is instand damage instead of a DoT.

ghosts are, in my opinion, the most underused Terran unit in TvP.
donkkk
Profile Joined December 2010
44 Posts
December 16 2010 10:28 GMT
#327
balanced = when protoss crushes terran with simple 1a while T has to target every type of unit manually and tbh i cant say if it helped the final battle wasnt even close it was genocide of terran army, i dont even know why i bother seems that countering equally skilled protoss 1gate FE with your own expansion is suicide in this game, guess i will just keep 1 base allining and keep blizzard happy with their 50% winrate in that matchup (which in fact is is 60-40 for P but whatever)
sleepingdog
Profile Joined August 2008
Austria6145 Posts
December 16 2010 10:33 GMT
#328
On December 16 2010 19:28 donkkk wrote:
balanced = when protoss crushes terran with simple 1a while T has to target every type of unit manually and tbh i cant say if it helped the final battle wasnt even close it was genocide of terran army, i dont even know why i bother seems that countering equally skilled protoss 1gate FE with your own expansion is suicide in this game, guess i will just keep 1 base allining and keep blizzard happy with their 50% winrate in that matchup (which in fact is is 60-40 for P but whatever)


Seriously: you registered 6 days ago, 90% of your posts are destructive QQs without any attempt to discuss things.

Way to go.
"You see....YOU SEE..." © 2010 Sen
donkkk
Profile Joined December 2010
44 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-16 10:44:32
December 16 2010 10:39 GMT
#329
On December 16 2010 19:33 sleepingdog wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 16 2010 19:28 donkkk wrote:
balanced = when protoss crushes terran with simple 1a while T has to target every type of unit manually and tbh i cant say if it helped the final battle wasnt even close it was genocide of terran army, i dont even know why i bother seems that countering equally skilled protoss 1gate FE with your own expansion is suicide in this game, guess i will just keep 1 base allining and keep blizzard happy with their 50% winrate in that matchup (which in fact is is 60-40 for P but whatever)


Seriously: you registered 6 days ago, 90% of your posts are destructive QQs without any attempt to discuss things.

Way to go.

oh pot calling the kettle black, half of your posts are whines how protoss is weak and how they dont win tourneys, do i need dig out your quotes from famous "Why is protoss doing so bad in the GSL?" created right before gsl3 with 3 P in ro4 and thats without any patch.
bkrow
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Australia8532 Posts
December 16 2010 10:49 GMT
#330
Wow so much flaming going on in this thread.. so unnecessary. Just debate the point in the OP; don't have to flame each other with off topic bullshit.

OT: A late game protoss with amulet/critical mass collosus/storm is almost unstoppable (assuming players are on even skill levels) - early game T is favoured, late game P is favoured; as T isn't the trick to stop P from getting to the late game.

If it gets to late game - T's need to evolve beyond MMM + Viking. Pain.user has showed us a pretty cool build by incorporating Thor/Banshee into his late game army composition. In big battles he manages to snipe observers and allow the cloaked banshees to destroy everything. More creative builds need to be discovered that allow for a better army composition.
In The Rear With The Gear .. *giggle* /////////// cobra-LA-LA-LA-LA-LA!!!!
Lomo
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany137 Posts
December 16 2010 10:51 GMT
#331
Dreamhack final ;P naama vs mana(metalopolis) 200/200 vs 200/200 and Naama with 3000 overminerals he lose so hard p is unstoppable in late game x_x
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pOEvN9n9MI&feature=related
sleepingdog
Profile Joined August 2008
Austria6145 Posts
December 16 2010 11:01 GMT
#332
On December 16 2010 19:39 donkkk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 16 2010 19:33 sleepingdog wrote:
On December 16 2010 19:28 donkkk wrote:
balanced = when protoss crushes terran with simple 1a while T has to target every type of unit manually and tbh i cant say if it helped the final battle wasnt even close it was genocide of terran army, i dont even know why i bother seems that countering equally skilled protoss 1gate FE with your own expansion is suicide in this game, guess i will just keep 1 base allining and keep blizzard happy with their 50% winrate in that matchup (which in fact is is 60-40 for P but whatever)


Seriously: you registered 6 days ago, 90% of your posts are destructive QQs without any attempt to discuss things.

Way to go.

oh pot calling the kettle black, half of your posts are whines how protoss is weak and how they dont win tourneys, do i need dig out your quotes from famous "Why is protoss doing so bad in the GSL?" created right before gsl3 with 3 P in ro4 and thats without any patch.


Please do so, could be fun considering that - in my first post back then - I agreed with the guy claiming that it is possibly just a coincidence.
"You see....YOU SEE..." © 2010 Sen
Snowbear
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Korea (South)1925 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-16 11:14:35
December 16 2010 11:13 GMT
#333
The problem is that protoss will win a 200vs200 fight most of the time. Then they can reinforce so MUCH QUICKER and the terran will 100% lose. Planetarys will not safe your production buildings like raxes and factories. A smart toss will move into your main and there is no way coming back. Your first new units will be slaughtered while the protoss is happily reinforcing.
sleepingdog
Profile Joined August 2008
Austria6145 Posts
December 16 2010 11:28 GMT
#334
On December 16 2010 20:13 Dente wrote:
The problem is that protoss will win a 200vs200 fight most of the time. Then they can reinforce so MUCH QUICKER and the terran will 100% lose. Planetarys will not safe your production buildings like raxes and factories. A smart toss will move into your main and there is no way coming back. Your first new units will be slaughtered while the protoss is happily reinforcing.


True to some extent, some possible solutions:

a) Force units that can NOT be warped in. This is why I also think T needs to incorporate mech more. Mech forces air and air needs quite some time to be re-built.
b) Terran is much more mobile which is why I don't see why terran shouldn't try to fight at the expansions of protoss while outexpanding him. Some maps don't allow outexpanding, which can cause problems indeed.

Zerg also can reinforce insanely fast, nevertheless you don't read that many complaints about instantly reinforced 200/200 zerg-forces. Fixing this would require changing the whole warptech-mechanism, I doubt this is do-able since it touches core gameplay mechanics.
"You see....YOU SEE..." © 2010 Sen
Bladefury
Profile Joined December 2010
25 Posts
December 16 2010 11:55 GMT
#335
On December 16 2010 20:28 sleepingdog wrote:
[Zerg also can reinforce insanely fast, nevertheless you don't read that many complaints about instantly reinforced 200/200 zerg-forces. Fixing this would require changing the whole warptech-mechanism, I doubt this is do-able since it touches core gameplay mechanics.


lol where have you been. haven't you read the endless threads about how terran has no choice but to marine-scv all-in because of zerg late game insta-reinforcement
Grummler
Profile Joined May 2010
Germany743 Posts
December 16 2010 12:11 GMT
#336
I like TvP, its fun to play and challenging. I dont earn money with sc2 and the match making system makes sure i win 50% of my games anyway. So i am fine, thanks.
workers, supply, money, workers, supply, money, workers, ...
HiHiByeBye
Profile Joined August 2009
Canada365 Posts
December 16 2010 12:18 GMT
#337
I Think TvP

Terran needs to go in with a ZvP Broodwar mentality. Get one base ahead and just turtle while using small groups of MM to deny toss expansions and be annoying in General.

And out engage when you know you can remake your army faster than your toss friend aka you are way ahead economically.

Also use flanks. Its been working ok well for me recently.
Sockpuppet
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
119 Posts
December 16 2010 12:27 GMT
#338
Honestly i at first hated pvt but now its startd to grow on me...I love to put on early pressure with a three rax build so that the toss can't just tech ur to collosus or templar...if they try to any way the game usually ends right there...however if the late game does come I like to abuse drops and instead of killing workers I like to in after tech more specifically robo bay and templar archives
MegaTerran
Profile Joined September 2010
214 Posts
December 16 2010 12:30 GMT
#339
I just cant understand one thing. If toss is so OP why Blizz increase their power in new patch making phonix build time faster?
clickrush
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Switzerland3257 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-16 12:48:52
December 16 2010 12:43 GMT
#340
On December 16 2010 13:48 eatpraylove wrote:
Just finished watching Husky's cast of the PvT between Huk & NEXExcrement from a week ago:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5umKEXwAO4

+ Show Spoiler +
The unfortunately-named Terran beat Huk's zealots, stalkers, colossi & HT's with MMM, ghosts & vikings only. I don't think he made a single factory unit.


I think this match is a very nice example of how even PvT lategame is.

+ Show Spoiler +
HuKs macro management was solid in this game and excrements was even a bit poorer despite winning the game in the end.

It really came down to decision making and army control. I dont dare to say that HuKs control is bad but excrements was better in this game. HuK is just not carefull enough with his storms and especially with his chargelots. Compare this control to MCs for example. He almost never storms his own units and plays mindgames with his HTs.


my prediction is that the more we get used to PvT lategame micro the more balanced it will look. because it really really comes down to pure army control and the guys who excell in PvT/TvP have very good micro.

edit:

actually the PvT lategame looks like ZvT was a few months ago. Many Terrans were crushed mid-late by mutaling baneling because they didnt control their armies right vs banelings. Now you see guys like Jinro/Nada/MK etc who have very good marinespreading so they can keep up with their pressure.

Its ofc easyer to micro against banes than against storm. But I think this will come sooner or later. And I love how powerfull storm and emp are because both abilities turn the tide so fast.
oGsMC: Zealot defense, Stalker attack, Sentry forcefieldu forcefieldu, Marauder die die
Prev 1 15 16 17 18 19 41 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 6h 9m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
WinterStarcraft238
Nina 219
RuFF_SC2 201
StarCraft: Brood War
Sea 4585
NaDa 83
Sexy 58
HiyA 56
Sharp 48
sSak 27
Icarus 8
Dota 2
monkeys_forever1401
LuMiX1
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King426
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor171
Other Games
summit1g14463
tarik_tv10602
JimRising 1104
ViBE224
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick1642
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 12 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• HerbMon 51
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Lourlo79
Upcoming Events
FEL
6h 9m
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
11h 9m
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
15h 9m
Bonyth vs Zhanhun
Dewalt vs Mihu
Hawk vs Sziky
Sziky vs QiaoGege
Mihu vs Hawk
Zhanhun vs Dewalt
Fengzi vs Bonyth
Sparkling Tuna Cup
2 days
Online Event
2 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
3 days
The PondCast
4 days
Replay Cast
4 days
Korean StarCraft League
6 days
CranKy Ducklings
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL 20 Non-Korean Championship
BSL 20 Team Wars
FEL Cracov 2025
CC Div. A S7
Underdog Cup #2
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25

Upcoming

ASL Season 20: Qualifier #1
ASL Season 20: Qualifier #2
ASL Season 20
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
SEL Season 2 Championship
WardiTV Summer 2025
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
HCC Europe
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.