EPT+ Show Spoiler +
The unfortunately-named Terran beat Huk's zealots, stalkers, colossi & HT's with MMM, ghosts & vikings only. I don't think he made a single factory unit.
TvP – A Terran’s view - Page 17
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eatpraylove
United States53 Posts
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Antisocialmunky
United States5913 Posts
Its an okay way to play but its problematic when it becomes the only way to play... | ||
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Foogs
40 Posts
On December 16 2010 14:11 Antisocialmunky wrote: Yes, the only thing that T seems to be able to do it seems... Everything else just falls flat due to the late game air switch. Its an okay way to play but its problematic when it becomes the only way to play... Well I guess we're getting closer to perfection then since that's all that sc1:bw tvp was. The same f-cking thing every game. | ||
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Pepe-
Germany87 Posts
You tried mech and at the first big fight you got into your tanks werent sieged at first and there was nothing to block for them. Your thors stand in the back... Later you did nothing when I was mass expanding and you got totally owned by storm into your mineral lines by just 2 pylons... Edit: Also you didnt get more than +1 atk upgrades, whats really silly for mech... | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
On December 16 2010 10:01 refraxion wrote: So what you're saying is that for a protoss to "win" they are outplaying the Terran (In your earlier posts)? This I do not agree with at all. I just think the match-up right now is still maturing -- the game hasn't been out long enough for everything to settle yet. It'll constantly change and there will be ways for T's to beat P's and P's to beat T's. Just like the FotM build which consists of chargelots (a huge ball) with mass HT's. Where do I claim that protoss only wins when they are outplaying terran? I say (and this is a huge difference) when protoss stays EVEN during midgame, then they do in fact outplay the terran, because nothing can overcome MMM in midgame before colossi reach a critical mass or storm is out. What I'm saying is, that it should be standard for terran to enter lategame one base ahead. If they don't manage to achieve that, they did something wrong. Same as if zerg stays on equal bases with other races...they just lose. Nothing wrong with zerg being one base ahead of you. Same with TvP, if I'm P and T stays level with me on bases (say 3 base vs 3 base, I don't even care about gold since gas is so much more important) then I feel very safe going into lategame. If T "not" uses their midgame advantage that MMM offers to boost their economy, then yes, P has outplayed them. Right now the funny thing is, that 90% of the terrans try to bust down the P-natural with their superior forces. But die to forcefields. Now just think about terran....NOT attacking, but quickly going to 4 bases? Do you really think toss would challenge the T before he has a critical mass? Imo many terrans throw away their midgame-superiority with battles in very unfortunate positions right now, when instead they should play economicly greedier. Same as BW just the other way round. Notice, that I DO realize that maps are a painful problem for this right now, there are some maps, where T just can't do that and has to capitalize early on. To see what I mean watch the game between whitera and blur on meta...it really hurts physicly how T throws the game away by suiciding his units instead of just macroing the fuck up. http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/(T)bLuR_vs_(P)DuckloadRa_metalopolis_sc2rep_com_20101215/3699 To the guy that mentioned the bratok-games: bratok made numerous small mistakes, for example on the game on meta he has 2-3 bunkers full of marauders during the whole game that stayed there until the end of time. He had more scvs but didn't use them to get significantly ahead in upgrades. Although he was maxed, in the crucial battles he wasn't "really" maxed but had units all over the place, either rallying or being produced. So the army of the toss was in fact larger, not least due to the fact that toss had fewer workers which is quite significant for lategame 200/200 battles. Micro-wise he lets the vikings fight against the phoenixes instead of focussing down the colossi. The funny thing is, the nightend vs bratok games were quite even for a long time, nightend just made fewer mistakes in the long run which culminated in the last deciding battle. But seriously, the games could've gone either way, if anything they are prove for TvP being quite balanced lol. | ||
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PulseSUI
Switzerland305 Posts
Here's one thing for certain: you aren't getting out BCs in numbers large enough to make a difference, and ghosts, while effective against HTs/sentries, are actually near worthless against everything else - not even chargelots. 1. BC are, just like Carriers, there to distract. unlike Carriers however, they are able to actualy deal damage and, with the yamato upgrade, can rid the protoss army of Colossus quit qickly. 2. builttime wise, you can get less then 2 Marauders in the time it takes a ghost, resource wise you could maybe get 3 Marauders during the time it takes to get a Ghost. a single EMP on a protoss ball can do upwards of 1.25k damage to there shields. do you honestly believe that your 3 Marauders you could get instead would do 20-40 shots each to even pull equal with what a single well placed EMP could do? there damage is not there attack, but there spellcaster abillity, wich is like a storm to protoss.. only you can not dodge it and it is instand damage instead of a DoT. ghosts are, in my opinion, the most underused Terran unit in TvP. | ||
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donkkk
44 Posts
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
On December 16 2010 19:28 donkkk wrote: balanced = when protoss crushes terran with simple 1a while T has to target every type of unit manually and tbh i cant say if it helped the final battle wasnt even close it was genocide of terran army, i dont even know why i bother seems that countering equally skilled protoss 1gate FE with your own expansion is suicide in this game, guess i will just keep 1 base allining and keep blizzard happy with their 50% winrate in that matchup (which in fact is is 60-40 for P but whatever) Seriously: you registered 6 days ago, 90% of your posts are destructive QQs without any attempt to discuss things. Way to go. | ||
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donkkk
44 Posts
On December 16 2010 19:33 sleepingdog wrote: Seriously: you registered 6 days ago, 90% of your posts are destructive QQs without any attempt to discuss things. Way to go. oh pot calling the kettle black, half of your posts are whines how protoss is weak and how they dont win tourneys, do i need dig out your quotes from famous "Why is protoss doing so bad in the GSL?" created right before gsl3 with 3 P in ro4 and thats without any patch. | ||
bkrow
Australia8532 Posts
OT: A late game protoss with amulet/critical mass collosus/storm is almost unstoppable (assuming players are on even skill levels) - early game T is favoured, late game P is favoured; as T isn't the trick to stop P from getting to the late game. If it gets to late game - T's need to evolve beyond MMM + Viking. Pain.user has showed us a pretty cool build by incorporating Thor/Banshee into his late game army composition. In big battles he manages to snipe observers and allow the cloaked banshees to destroy everything. More creative builds need to be discovered that allow for a better army composition. | ||
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Lomo
Germany137 Posts
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
On December 16 2010 19:39 donkkk wrote: oh pot calling the kettle black, half of your posts are whines how protoss is weak and how they dont win tourneys, do i need dig out your quotes from famous "Why is protoss doing so bad in the GSL?" created right before gsl3 with 3 P in ro4 and thats without any patch. Please do so, could be fun considering that - in my first post back then - I agreed with the guy claiming that it is possibly just a coincidence. | ||
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Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
On December 16 2010 20:13 Dente wrote: The problem is that protoss will win a 200vs200 fight most of the time. Then they can reinforce so MUCH QUICKER and the terran will 100% lose. Planetarys will not safe your production buildings like raxes and factories. A smart toss will move into your main and there is no way coming back. Your first new units will be slaughtered while the protoss is happily reinforcing. True to some extent, some possible solutions: a) Force units that can NOT be warped in. This is why I also think T needs to incorporate mech more. Mech forces air and air needs quite some time to be re-built. b) Terran is much more mobile which is why I don't see why terran shouldn't try to fight at the expansions of protoss while outexpanding him. Some maps don't allow outexpanding, which can cause problems indeed. Zerg also can reinforce insanely fast, nevertheless you don't read that many complaints about instantly reinforced 200/200 zerg-forces. Fixing this would require changing the whole warptech-mechanism, I doubt this is do-able since it touches core gameplay mechanics. | ||
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Bladefury
25 Posts
On December 16 2010 20:28 sleepingdog wrote: [Zerg also can reinforce insanely fast, nevertheless you don't read that many complaints about instantly reinforced 200/200 zerg-forces. Fixing this would require changing the whole warptech-mechanism, I doubt this is do-able since it touches core gameplay mechanics. lol where have you been. haven't you read the endless threads about how terran has no choice but to marine-scv all-in because of zerg late game insta-reinforcement | ||
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Grummler
Germany743 Posts
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HiHiByeBye
Canada365 Posts
Terran needs to go in with a ZvP Broodwar mentality. Get one base ahead and just turtle while using small groups of MM to deny toss expansions and be annoying in General. And out engage when you know you can remake your army faster than your toss friend aka you are way ahead economically. Also use flanks. Its been working ok well for me recently. | ||
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Sockpuppet
119 Posts
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MegaTerran
214 Posts
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clickrush
Switzerland3257 Posts
On December 16 2010 13:48 eatpraylove wrote: Just finished watching Husky's cast of the PvT between Huk & NEXExcrement from a week ago: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5umKEXwAO4 + Show Spoiler + The unfortunately-named Terran beat Huk's zealots, stalkers, colossi & HT's with MMM, ghosts & vikings only. I don't think he made a single factory unit. I think this match is a very nice example of how even PvT lategame is. + Show Spoiler + HuKs macro management was solid in this game and excrements was even a bit poorer despite winning the game in the end. It really came down to decision making and army control. I dont dare to say that HuKs control is bad but excrements was better in this game. HuK is just not carefull enough with his storms and especially with his chargelots. Compare this control to MCs for example. He almost never storms his own units and plays mindgames with his HTs. my prediction is that the more we get used to PvT lategame micro the more balanced it will look. because it really really comes down to pure army control and the guys who excell in PvT/TvP have very good micro. edit: actually the PvT lategame looks like ZvT was a few months ago. Many Terrans were crushed mid-late by mutaling baneling because they didnt control their armies right vs banelings. Now you see guys like Jinro/Nada/MK etc who have very good marinespreading so they can keep up with their pressure. Its ofc easyer to micro against banes than against storm. But I think this will come sooner or later. And I love how powerfull storm and emp are because both abilities turn the tide so fast. | ||
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