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I have found that marines serve more of a special role in TvP, as I had lots of trouble against toss when the core of my army was marines.
as many have pointed out, collo and templar eat marines for breakfast, however maurauders fare far better agasint these units, I usually do a standard 3 rax build, only i build 3 techlabs instead of 2 and a reactor so i can pump marauders if i see hes going a standard ground build.
if they go void rays or pheonix, then marines are good.
It takes a bit of micro to kite zealots+storms, and stim to pick of the collossus, and if you dont have your raxes hotkeyed you will probobly not be able to rebuild fast enough.
I also have found that building an extra OC is super super helpful, extra MULEs allow one to mega rax if they feel like it, if the toss sticks to gateway units.
also, if you get your gas at the standard timing, you can usualy afford to get good upgrades going.
I think alot of T kinda get stuck on the marine which lets them down to AoE attacks. The maurader is a better core unit, it just lives so much longer and can fight nearly anything the toss has on the ground. its hard counter to stalkers, and a soft counter to zealots and collo, depending on how well your micro is.
this might be common knowledge, but I think its good advice non the less 
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just saw game qxc vs minigun
lategame ghost,bc, marauder, banshee thor, vikings got completly stomped by toss death ball wasnt even close, everything evaporated despite of emp which hit every fucking ht, this matchup makes me sad
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On December 15 2010 10:37 donkkk wrote:
just saw game qxc vs minigun
lategame ghost,bc, marauder, banshee thor, vikings got completly stomped by toss death ball wasnt even close, everything evaporated despite of emp which hit every fucking ht, this matchup makes me sad
So you're saying a huge menagerie of strong units got beaten by a more homogenous group?? get out of town
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On December 15 2010 10:46 rsol wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 10:37 donkkk wrote:
just saw game qxc vs minigun
lategame ghost,bc, marauder, banshee thor, vikings got completly stomped by toss death ball wasnt even close, everything evaporated despite of emp which hit every fucking ht, this matchup makes me sad
So you're saying a huge menagerie of strong units got beaten by a more homogenous group?? get out of town
i belive they both were maxed, and qxc had mix of best terran units which didnt metter at all because eveything evaporated without even touching toss ball its laughable
its counter argument to every theorycrafter who says T should "transition", im asking to what?
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On December 15 2010 10:54 donkkk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 10:46 rsol wrote:On December 15 2010 10:37 donkkk wrote:
just saw game qxc vs minigun
lategame ghost,bc, marauder, banshee thor, vikings got completly stomped by toss death ball wasnt even close, everything evaporated despite of emp which hit every fucking ht, this matchup makes me sad
So you're saying a huge menagerie of strong units got beaten by a more homogenous group?? get out of town i belive they both were maxed, and qxc had best mix of terran units which didnt metter at all because eveything evaporated without even touching toss ball its laughable its just arguement to every theorycrafter who says T should "transition".
I challenge the assertion that "a best mix of terran units" is one that dies instantly to anything.
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On December 15 2010 11:00 rsol wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 10:54 donkkk wrote:On December 15 2010 10:46 rsol wrote:On December 15 2010 10:37 donkkk wrote:
just saw game qxc vs minigun
lategame ghost,bc, marauder, banshee thor, vikings got completly stomped by toss death ball wasnt even close, everything evaporated despite of emp which hit every fucking ht, this matchup makes me sad
So you're saying a huge menagerie of strong units got beaten by a more homogenous group?? get out of town i belive they both were maxed, and qxc had best mix of terran units which didnt metter at all because eveything evaporated without even touching toss ball its laughable its just arguement to every theorycrafter who says T should "transition". I challenge the assertion that "a best mix of terran units" is one that dies instantly to anything.
well I wouldnt call P 200/200 death ball "anything" but lets face it T late game is a joke compered to other races.
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hi wondering if anyone has any advice im a newbie SC player just got into gold a few days ago, i like how my TvT and TvZ are right now but against toss i've had a 0% win rate in the past few days since getting into gold and playing gold/plat protoss'. i've been trying to improve my macro and not going for cheesy builds but protoss has to the be the most infuriating race to play against, either you get cannon rushed, proxy gatewayed (if you ever forget the wounds caused by not scouting EVERYWHERE when you face toss) , 4 gate all inned or destroyed in the late game.
As i'm concentrating on improving my macro i've been using 1 rax FE and more recently 2 rax FE but because i'm using these builds and i'm not too confident in knowing when to attack i get smashed by toss in the late game. It's so hard especially for someone like me who isn't too experinced with picking off HT's or sniping collosus with vikings in the late game, i feel like a more early/mid game BO is worth practicing instead.
Also i'm scared to commit to ghosts as my micro is pretty terrible besides my pretty basic marine marauder viking micro.
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When people say terran has an advantage early game, and attribute that to marauder with conc shells, exactly how early are we talking?
I think I've won less than a handful of games by pushing early with a few marines and marauders. Like, I've had the most success with 1 rax at home and 1 proxied with a tech lab and attacking when I have the first marauder with conc out - if I want to do super early pressure, which I generally dislike doing.. But if the protoss player has a sentry out, you can just forget attacking. If he's good, you're not getting up that choke without having your army split in two and killed. And you don't want to gamble on the protoss player being bad and unable to click on his ramp.
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Australia8532 Posts
On December 15 2010 10:54 donkkk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 10:46 rsol wrote:On December 15 2010 10:37 donkkk wrote:
just saw game qxc vs minigun
lategame ghost,bc, marauder, banshee thor, vikings got completly stomped by toss death ball wasnt even close, everything evaporated despite of emp which hit every fucking ht, this matchup makes me sad
So you're saying a huge menagerie of strong units got beaten by a more homogenous group?? get out of town i belive they both were maxed, and qxc had mix of best terran units which didnt metter at all because eveything evaporated without even touching toss ball its laughable its counter argument to every theorycrafter who says T should "transition", im asking to what?
i believe you are wrong; that was the problem - Mini was maxed where qxc was not and was playing catchup?
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On December 15 2010 10:37 donkkk wrote:
just saw game qxc vs minigun
lategame ghost,bc, marauder, banshee thor, vikings got completly stomped by toss death ball wasnt even close, everything evaporated despite of emp which hit every fucking ht, this matchup makes me sad
this sounds like a lot of bull****.
And it is no counterargument to anything untill you post a replay.
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On December 15 2010 15:10 bkrow wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 10:54 donkkk wrote:On December 15 2010 10:46 rsol wrote:On December 15 2010 10:37 donkkk wrote:
just saw game qxc vs minigun
lategame ghost,bc, marauder, banshee thor, vikings got completly stomped by toss death ball wasnt even close, everything evaporated despite of emp which hit every fucking ht, this matchup makes me sad
So you're saying a huge menagerie of strong units got beaten by a more homogenous group?? get out of town i belive they both were maxed, and qxc had mix of best terran units which didnt metter at all because eveything evaporated without even touching toss ball its laughable its counter argument to every theorycrafter who says T should "transition", im asking to what? i believe you are wrong; that was the problem - Mini was maxed where qxc was not and was playing catchup?
yea and mini let him catch up they both split map and final battle looked like a joke
On December 15 2010 15:57 Tastinggood wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 10:37 donkkk wrote:
just saw game qxc vs minigun
lategame ghost,bc, marauder, banshee thor, vikings got completly stomped by toss death ball wasnt even close, everything evaporated despite of emp which hit every fucking ht, this matchup makes me sad
this sounds like a lot of bull****. And it is no counterargument to anything untill you post a replay.
compere value to your army which add thor to colos, the 2nd one is great and basically melts every ground unit in range of 9, 1st one is yay i can stomp forcefields and move like a fucking snail, great ....
Only "late" game unit which has potential is tank but blizzard ruined it with numerous nerfs their dmg is inefficient plus seems like half of toss units is made sorely to counter them (seriosuly wtf is with that), so here we are stuck with bio massing marauders (marines are abysmal after colo is out) because theres no other late game option.
As for the replay i asked but no answer
check http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=175160¤tpage=6 for vods.
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On December 15 2010 11:06 donkkk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 11:00 rsol wrote:On December 15 2010 10:54 donkkk wrote:On December 15 2010 10:46 rsol wrote:On December 15 2010 10:37 donkkk wrote:
just saw game qxc vs minigun
lategame ghost,bc, marauder, banshee thor, vikings got completly stomped by toss death ball wasnt even close, everything evaporated despite of emp which hit every fucking ht, this matchup makes me sad
So you're saying a huge menagerie of strong units got beaten by a more homogenous group?? get out of town i belive they both were maxed, and qxc had best mix of terran units which didnt metter at all because eveything evaporated without even touching toss ball its laughable its just arguement to every theorycrafter who says T should "transition". I challenge the assertion that "a best mix of terran units" is one that dies instantly to anything. well I wouldnt call P 200/200 death ball "anything" but lets face it T late game is a joke compered to other races.
Yeah, not like qxc managed to beat kiwikaki in lategame 3 times (heavy focus on thors and battlecruisers):
http://sc2casts.com/cast1783-qxc-vs-KiwiKaki-Best-of-5-FXOpen-Invitational-Winners-Bracket-Finals
But I guess kiwikaki is simply a bad protoss who doesn't know how to perfectly abuse toss lategame....
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On December 15 2010 15:57 Tastinggood wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 10:37 donkkk wrote:
just saw game qxc vs minigun
lategame ghost,bc, marauder, banshee thor, vikings got completly stomped by toss death ball wasnt even close, everything evaporated despite of emp which hit every fucking ht, this matchup makes me sad
this sounds like a lot of bull****. And it is no counterargument to anything untill you post a replay.
here you go
http://www.root-gaming.com/replay/qxc-vs-mini-lost-temple
it's not really BS. Qxc was all around the map. If you compare the micro needed for him and the toss player and the effeciency of the units it really makes you sad.
But I think there were some tactical mistakes by qxc. He should have switched to banshee/BC and some vikings for observer hunting and proceed as he did. Scan, kill obs, make the enemy scream, retreat. He had room to transition after his massive drop play.
Imho he should have traded his army exactly this way (drop play) and rebuild into more late tech units as he did agains kiwikaki.
Btw this game showed that ghost is not sufficient as a counter to templar, due to the warp in, even if you emp and emp the warping templars he just warps more of them and you don't have enough ghost with you. And of course he can morph to archon right away, like seriously, this should be made it at least 5 energy so we don't get this kind of non-sense. Use emp and use 3 more?
Disclaimer: I don't have problem with Toss and while in this situation it's kind of strong, else I find them ok.
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So much bickering about late game. What about PainUsers lategame Thor Helion Banshee Viking vs Tyler at MLG which completely roflstomped Tylers Colossus/Templar...
For every replay you show with one side winning you can easily show another of the other doing the same i.e the above replays of KiwiKaki losing to QXC's lategame Terran. Tyler was right on the state of the game that people complain too much about balance than trying to improve themselves.
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On December 15 2010 19:45 Dommk wrote:
So much bickering about late game. What about PainUsers lategame Thor Helion Banshee Viking vs Tyler at MLG which completely roflstomped Tylers Colossus/Templar...
For every replay you show with one side winning you can easily show another of the other doing the same i.e the above replays of KiwiKaki losing to QXC's lategame Terran. Tyler was right on the state of the game that people complain too much about balance than trying to improve themselves.
Except Painuser did the same build on ladder and got rofl stomped. so yea.
The point people are trying to make in this thread is that late-game isn't "even" for the match-up. Terran has a lot of good units but ht warp-in on mineral lines is a pain.
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On December 15 2010 19:50 KonohaFlash wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 19:45 Dommk wrote:
So much bickering about late game. What about PainUsers lategame Thor Helion Banshee Viking vs Tyler at MLG which completely roflstomped Tylers Colossus/Templar...
For every replay you show with one side winning you can easily show another of the other doing the same i.e the above replays of KiwiKaki losing to QXC's lategame Terran. Tyler was right on the state of the game that people complain too much about balance than trying to improve themselves. Except Painuser did the same build on ladder and got rofl stomped. so yea.
So your saying what worked one game didn't work in another completely different game?
/shock
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On December 15 2010 19:51 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 19:50 KonohaFlash wrote:On December 15 2010 19:45 Dommk wrote:
So much bickering about late game. What about PainUsers lategame Thor Helion Banshee Viking vs Tyler at MLG which completely roflstomped Tylers Colossus/Templar...
For every replay you show with one side winning you can easily show another of the other doing the same i.e the above replays of KiwiKaki losing to QXC's lategame Terran. Tyler was right on the state of the game that people complain too much about balance than trying to improve themselves. Except Painuser did the same build on ladder and got rofl stomped. so yea. So your saying what worked one game didn't work in another completely different game? /shock
no hes saying tyler didnt respond well to this build (which nony confiremed on sogt)
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On December 15 2010 19:53 donkkk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 19:51 Dommk wrote:On December 15 2010 19:50 KonohaFlash wrote:On December 15 2010 19:45 Dommk wrote:
So much bickering about late game. What about PainUsers lategame Thor Helion Banshee Viking vs Tyler at MLG which completely roflstomped Tylers Colossus/Templar...
For every replay you show with one side winning you can easily show another of the other doing the same i.e the above replays of KiwiKaki losing to QXC's lategame Terran. Tyler was right on the state of the game that people complain too much about balance than trying to improve themselves. Except Painuser did the same build on ladder and got rofl stomped. so yea. So your saying what worked one game didn't work in another completely different game? /shock no hes saying tyler didnt respond well to this build (which nony confiremed on sogt)
So maybe, just maybe, QXC didn't respond to Mini's build as well as he did to Kiwikakis? Saying that QXC used X units and didn't win and showing only a single replay shows very little. Tyler at MLG had a great assortment of upgrades and lategame Toss tech but still got steam rolled, having units isn't the same as knowing what to do with them and knowing what you actually need.
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On December 15 2010 19:50 KonohaFlash wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 19:45 Dommk wrote:
So much bickering about late game. What about PainUsers lategame Thor Helion Banshee Viking vs Tyler at MLG which completely roflstomped Tylers Colossus/Templar...
For every replay you show with one side winning you can easily show another of the other doing the same i.e the above replays of KiwiKaki losing to QXC's lategame Terran. Tyler was right on the state of the game that people complain too much about balance than trying to improve themselves. Except Painuser did the same build on ladder and got rofl stomped. so yea. The point people are trying to make in this thread is that late-game isn't "even" for the match-up. Terran has a lot of good units but ht warp-in on mineral lines is a pain.
I think a large number of problems late game vs P (ht warp-in on mineral lines) can be solved with Sensor Towers.. I actually place ST at every expo (3rd, 4th) later in game, its just invaluable.. Combined with Planetary Fortress and few Missile Turrets, you are set to have a safe income..
I mean, there is a reason Blizzard implemented this structure to Terran arsenal and of course its not a good investment for early game. But the later the game goes, the more important it is to spot drop, warp-in or some sneaky movements around map..
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don't worry, guys, just experiment more with those units.
ghosts and medivacs and tanks have so much untapped potential. as well as medivacs and hellions. lately I've been going a lot of 2rax FE (select style) into 3rax 2 fact 1reactor starport for bio+tank+ghost+medivac/viking, getting all 4 gases real quick + taking a 3rd shortly afterwards. it's super ultra micro intensive having to control viking + emp + tank leapfrogging + medivac drops/movement + MMball stim & spread around those colossi heavy toss compositions but it's worth it. my unit control is atrocious and I've still been able to win most of my TvPs easily for the last week (against the same decent opponents) while I struggled so much with that massbio/medivac/viking against Ps with the worst macro ever.
now, i'm not saying that this is The unit composition or sth, just that there is still a lot of stuff to be tested. don't try and jump to conclusions about TvP yet, and please don't make blizzard change stuff ! let the game develop by itself, I think there's a lot to be seen in the upcoming months. for example, we haven't yet seen a lot of that passive terran style which some terrans try to play lately.
one thing, however, is for sure. late game TvP is friggin complex. it's macro heavy ofc, but with so many casters and funky units there are soo many tactical decisions to be made. I'm just a 2500 terran and I'm having a blast every time I play TvP. I just get the shivers when I think about the kind of matches we're about to see in the future when people's unit control gets better so they can make use of all the units, and not just forcefield micro, stalkercolossi balls or MMMG(V)
edit: forgot to comment on games. Servyoa vs MouzMana @ xelnaga - servoya made istakes in order to lose the game like that. it was just a terrible fight, sacrificing all of his tanks, not having emps or scans and clumping his units against 4-5 HTs. I'm not saying he's a bad player, and it is very very easy to make those mistakes in such a game. I'm just saying that he did and that's why he lost. had he played better after he had such a lead he could have easily won.
it's easy to fall into that trap that as long as you have 30-40 food advantage you're going to win. in sc2 tvp however that's not true at all. one badly planned battle can decide the game just like it did
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