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On December 15 2010 05:08 Darkstar_X wrote:
Are people just making up numbers here? This thread is ridiculous. Stuff like Hellions aren't cost efficent (hitting 3 light targets, they are the most efficient dps Terran unit), or Templar moving 2.81 (they move 1.875), Immortal attack cooldown in 1.45 not 2.5. All this complaining and misinformation . . . this thread should just be closed.
Sorry guys, typo, lol, changed it , it's DT that has 2.81 speed not ht.
That's why spread dt works so well, at least much better than banshee. I know it might not be a good idea to compare these two units on equal ground but let's just state the facts for the sake of it:
cost: dt(125,125, 2 supply) roughly equal banshee(150, 100)
life: dt(40+80) roughly equal banshee(140)
cloak ability: dt>>>banshee
dps: dt(45/1.69=26.6)>>bashee(24/1.25=19)
speed: dt(2.81)>banshee(2.75)
detector:
canon>>turret(because turret can not attack dt)
observer(50, 100)>banshee(100,200)
observer(50,100)>> scan(270 mineral, multiple of this if DT's not in one place which is usually the case)
dt just has absurd high dps, they one shot marin or scv. wonder what people think of dt in pvp?
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one answer to storm is to EMP the protoss ball, then stop-move micro your army into the protoss army... any storms will obliterate his units as well as yours and he loses his advantage.
you also want tanks for the insane splash dps and range.
running away from storm is a terrible idea... losing 80% of your army hp is almost as bad as losing 80% of your unit count.
btw - battlecruiser without yamato/enough energy for yamato is terribad. they're just far too expensive and slow, i can't see why you'd ever pick them over banshee. 3 banshee's are far more fearsome than 1 battlecruiser.
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Well, I have enough of it. I lose every battle I do against P (please don't say that raxunits > gateway units, because in my expieriece that's not true at all) and when I enter lategame there is nothing to transition. I open tanks + MMM. Then I tried to transition into: mass banshee + tanks + vikings / thors and tanks, etc. Nothing works and at the end I just die. I am not an allin player. I prefer macrogames. If blizzard doesn't change a thing about terran, then I don't know if I will continue playing with them.
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@OP: Idk if you are still following this thread but I'll go ahead and post my TvP style since a lot of my fellow Terrans are having issues. I have found a lot of success with this style upto 2.2k diamond. Bio sucks late game and mech is very hard to get up to critical numbers. Even if you do get mech up to critical numbers, it is a pretty fragile composition and quite immobile. Starport on the other hand (or 'Sky Terran' as Artosis calls it) has shown to be very promising in this matchup for a number of reasons -
1) Cloak banshees force robo which is weak against air.
2) Cloak banshee+raven+viking force many observers and eat up production time of colo+immortal
3) Deals with the colossus by diminishing its role.
4) The maps are small with many chokes. A 200/200 ground army will rarely all fire together. Along with FFs almost always half of the ground units are glitching out behind the other half. Air units can however stack up and fights along with the smaller ground support force with all 200/200 dealing dps at the same time. Toss has no air splash so stacking is very effective.
I open 111 cloak banshee into expand. Then put down another rax and another starport. Pump out bio off 2 raxes (1 with techlab and 1 with reactor). Get a Raven and medivac early for building up energy and devote rest of production to banshees with some vikings (if colo/phoenix are scouted).
This is really effective against pretty much anything the toss has before templar tech. You can safely take a third with this composition and then tech to BCs/Thors/Ghosts, whatever you feel will be best for dealing with Templar. Late game I also add a lot of raxes for very quick production of ground support. This makes the ground army expendable to storms and as long as air survives and hits critical mass I roll over toss completely.
Its a good late game composition that forces toss to go stargate and templar, an expensive combination which forces toss to fight for a large number of bases.
The midgame becomes a lot more manageable with starpart tech > robo tech which toss had to open with for cloak banshees. If toss goes robo into templar off 2 bases, your mid game banshee raven viking+bio push should kill him. Toss needs to fight for a third off robo/stargate tech and then transition into templars.
Most importantly, you have a roflstomping air fleet of viking, BCs and banshees with marine medivac support. Once your air hits critical mass, if toss doesnt have the specific counters in place, he should get completely rolled.
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Ghost needs to fucking walk 1 at time while your warped-in templars storm and feedback just about everything in 5 seconds..
Doesnt sound balanced to me comparing to ghosts..
Dont terrans have the best dropships???
Arent ghost great at HT sniping and can even cloak??
I rarely see any Terran use ghosts with medivacs. You dont need to walk them, Drop them beside the army and kill those HT. Ghost are so imba against Protoss that it isnt even funny. The whole EMP vs Storm battle is so T favoured that i just dont know how you can complain. You just arent used to having to micro so much in battles.
BTW: Storm is only really op if you go heavy marines. Arent you expected to be owned hard if you just mass the same basic unit all game?
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Yes I actually thinking of just GG each time I get Protoss now - playing vs them just removes the enjoyment for the game. And Blizzard is thinking of boosting them? Are we even playing the same game?
Even if mass drop spread out MMM is viable and balanced (It is not on my level but whatever) it is still boring and not how I wish to play a RTS.
TvT is beautiful and strategic. TvP is boring and one-dimensional.
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+ Show Spoiler +On December 15 2010 05:19 paradisefar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 05:08 Darkstar_X wrote:
Are people just making up numbers here? This thread is ridiculous. Stuff like Hellions aren't cost efficent (hitting 3 light targets, they are the most efficient dps Terran unit), or Templar moving 2.81 (they move 1.875), Immortal attack cooldown in 1.45 not 2.5. All this complaining and misinformation . . . this thread should just be closed. Sorry guys, typo, lol, changed it , it's DT that has 2.81 speed not ht. That's why spread dt works so well, at least much better than banshee. I know it might not be a good idea to compare these two units on equal ground but let's just state the facts for the sake of it: cost: dt(125,125, 2 supply) roughly equal banshee(150, 100) life: dt(40+80) roughly equal banshee(140) cloak ability: dt>>>banshee dps: dt(45/1.69=26.6)>>bashee(24/1.25=19) speed: dt(2.81)>banshee(2.75) detector cost: canon>>turret(because turret can not attack dt) observer(50, 100)>banshee(100,200) observer(50,100)> scan(270 mineral, multiple of this if DT's not in one place which is usually the case) dt just has absurd high dps, they one shot marin or scv. wonder what people think of dt in pvp?
i spilled my coffee laughing at this hilarious comparisation between dts and flying dts
also the detector comparisation is quite hilarious
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On December 15 2010 05:43 Hellye wrote:Show nested quote +
Ghost needs to fucking walk 1 at time while your warped-in templars storm and feedback just about everything in 5 seconds..
Doesnt sound balanced to me comparing to ghosts..
Dont terrans have the best dropships??? Arent ghost great at HT sniping and can even cloak?? I rarely see any Terran use ghosts with medivacs. You dont need to walk them, Drop them beside the army and kill those HT. Ghost are so imba against Protoss that it isnt even funny. The whole EMP vs Storm battle is so T favoured that i just dont know how you can complain. You just arent used to having to micro so much in battles. BTW: Storm is only really op if you go heavy marines. Arent you expected to be owned hard if you just mass the same basic unit all game?
Oh don't worry about medivacs cause I think those templars also got that there feedback. Oh yeah those stalkers by the way, they shoot up. Oh yeah and lets not forget medivacs are target priority for most unit AIs. Oh yeah lets not forget the fact that you'd be throwing away 400 minerals and 400 gas if you put 2 ghosts into a medivac. A medivac that will die and not heal anything and ghosts that will EMP templar, watch them morph into archons and die as more templar are warped in ANYWAY.
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On December 15 2010 04:42 Scare_Crow wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 04:20 itsMAHVELbaybee wrote:On December 15 2010 03:02 Jayrod wrote:On December 15 2010 00:22 Caphe wrote:
Some very good points from posters above me. I want to add some more.
As a Terran player: I noticed that recently Protoss players use HT way more and in the mix with Colossus, they are too deadly to any Terran army. Protoss ball late game is...scary.
Right now what I do is attack them in some small timing window hoping to criple them enough to gain an advantage and work from that.
Also, prevent Protoss from taking his 5th and 6th gas(3 base) is crucial. HT and colossus are very gas heavy. With the 6 gas or more, its too easy for Protoss to switch tech. One minute Protoss has alot of HT, and then in the next fight, he just has some more colossus and Terran is screw.
Maybe its time to introduce mech into Terran army vs Protoss. Bio with Ghost is now having a very difficult time. Ghost-mech is the future end game. I'd read the rest of your post, if you didn't open with a ghost-mech argument. Ghost mech is true garbage, anyone with the intentions of meching will and deserves to lose outright anyway. Hellions are garbage, their supposed to kill light units, but do such an incredibly shitty job that mech immediately falls apart. Tanks can be steam rolled by mass immortals. EMP does not KILL immortals, you still have 200 HP to plow through all the while being up shot at with 50 dmg against armored while chargelot colossi eat away at your army. Thors don't do shit cause chargelot surround pretty much wins that fight and no idiot will walk his colossi to get into 6 range of 250mm. Even if you get your nice 10+ tank push going, you'll just get worn down by pure protoss macro as reinforcing mech is the slowest in the game even on even bases. All the while protoss get to do cute stuff like warp prism drop with chargelots, get you out of position for free and cower in fear as your unseiged tanks are steam rolled. Seriously you have mental issues if you think this is liable by any stretch of the imagination. You know, Immortals take 10 more seconds and 100 more minerals to build than Tanks, coming out of a facility that uses the exact same mechanics as the Factory. A Warp Prism takes 50 seconds, and uses the same structure the Immortals are made from. A Siege Tank's attack speed unsieged is 1.04, and it deals 25 vs Armored, an Immortal's is 2.5, dealing 50 damage. They both have 1 Armor. Assuming a Ghost EMPs the Immortal, a Tank can attack 9 times before an Immortal destroys it, and takes only 8 shots to kill an unshielded Immortal. The Tank also gets an extra shot before the Immortal enters range. So, uh... If you take Ghost Tank and put up the Immortals, the Tanks actually win in a straight up fight. Of course, you need the Ghost, but he's made from Barracks, so you'll still have the same number of Tanks vs Immortals, especially since 2 Ghosts' worth of EMPs is enough to blanket something like 24 Immortals, unless you're suggesting you will individually separate every one of them before you engage (in which case you're walking them into the Tanks' guns single file, and you lose anyway). But what if you catch them while they're Sieged? (Lol, trying to catch the Tanks sieged). You move at the speed of 2.25, which means your first Immortal will walk into range of the tank after 3.6 seconds of entering the Tanks' range. That means you fire your first shot 0.6 seconds after the Tanks have fired their SECOND. If that same balling Ghost is still hanging around and EMPs you before you enter range (with his EMP range of 4 greater than your attack range), you will die in 9 seconds to one Tank, while your Immortal needs 10 seconds (4 shots) to kill the Tank. So mass Immortal is nowhere near a counter to mass Tanks, since with the massive range 13 and a Viking spotting, he is immune to your High Templar while sieged, which means his Ghosts can EMP you without any danger. This is of course in a controlled environment, and only about Siege Tank v Immortal, but mech is in no way unviable. ALL mech might be pushing it, as you need anti-air, but Siege Tanks won't be rolled over by Immortals, Colossi, or HTs so long as Ghosts are with them. The biggest thing is that while Protoss units can trade shots with Terran units any day, Terran units balance it out by always getting to shoot first. Eh, disregarding the rest of your theorycrafting, Immortal attack speed is 1.44 or 1.45, comparable to stalkers or unstimmed Marauders.
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On December 15 2010 03:48 Scare_Crow wrote:
You know, I was just watching day9's newest Funday Monday about BC rushes for the giggles, and I noticed something really crazy: they're getting out their first BC at 8:30.
Holy balls, how many Protoss builds can handle a BC/Marine push at 9 minutes?
Okay, probably quite a few builds, but it's still eye-opening how obscenely fast you can start slapping down BCs. I think I'll go off on a losing streak against Protoss to try to somehow make fast air.
I actually already have a BO that can get a bcruiser out at 7:30 + some helions and marines ready
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On December 15 2010 06:14 itsMAHVELbaybee wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 05:43 Hellye wrote:
Ghost needs to fucking walk 1 at time while your warped-in templars storm and feedback just about everything in 5 seconds..
Doesnt sound balanced to me comparing to ghosts..
Dont terrans have the best dropships??? Arent ghost great at HT sniping and can even cloak?? I rarely see any Terran use ghosts with medivacs. You dont need to walk them, Drop them beside the army and kill those HT. Ghost are so imba against Protoss that it isnt even funny. The whole EMP vs Storm battle is so T favoured that i just dont know how you can complain. You just arent used to having to micro so much in battles. BTW: Storm is only really op if you go heavy marines. Arent you expected to be owned hard if you just mass the same basic unit all game? Oh don't worry about medivacs cause I think those templars also got that there feedback. Oh yeah those stalkers by the way, they shoot up. Oh yeah and lets not forget medivacs are target priority for most unit AIs. Oh yeah lets not forget the fact that you'd be throwing away 400 minerals and 400 gas if you put 2 ghosts into a medivac. A medivac that will die and not heal anything and ghosts that will EMP templar, watch them morph into archons and die as more templar are warped in ANYWAY.
Cause you know HT have all the energy in the world. They can storm and feeback and ofc that feeback destroys the medivac. LOL
Try to flank with 1 dropship of medivac snipers and ull see how powerfull it is to not 1a all units together but actually know wtf is going on with your most priceless unit. And do you know that stalkers cant shoot to all places at once?
Btw do you know u got more than just EMP right? SNIPE is also a skill! Ofc i see you forget ghosts can attack.... how silly of you
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Australia8532 Posts
The amount of whining in this thread is ridonculous! And the theorycrafting is beyond applicable.
Yes protoss are super strong late game; if you allow them to macro to HTs+storm with amulet or mass collossus with mass upgrades etc, it's going to be gg. That isn't a QQ, that isn't a balance whine - It's an element of the match up you need to consider - yes ghosts can snipe, yes HTs can feedback and archon morph; congratulations.
Jinro vs Socke at MLG (think it was this game) was one of the rare examples of a Terran beating a late game protoss; maybe watch those replays for some better insight
Anyway - crazy crazy thread
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On December 15 2010 06:06 Tastinggood wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 15 2010 05:19 paradisefar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 05:08 Darkstar_X wrote:
Are people just making up numbers here? This thread is ridiculous. Stuff like Hellions aren't cost efficent (hitting 3 light targets, they are the most efficient dps Terran unit), or Templar moving 2.81 (they move 1.875), Immortal attack cooldown in 1.45 not 2.5. All this complaining and misinformation . . . this thread should just be closed. Sorry guys, typo, lol, changed it , it's DT that has 2.81 speed not ht. That's why spread dt works so well, at least much better than banshee. I know it might not be a good idea to compare these two units on equal ground but let's just state the facts for the sake of it: cost: dt(125,125, 2 supply) roughly equal banshee(150, 100) life: dt(40+80) roughly equal banshee(140) cloak ability: dt>>>banshee dps: dt(45/1.69=26.6)>>bashee(24/1.25=19) speed: dt(2.81)>banshee(2.75) detector cost: canon>>turret(because turret can not attack dt) observer(50, 100)>banshee(100,200) observer(50,100)> scan(270 mineral, multiple of this if DT's not in one place which is usually the case) dt just has absurd high dps, they one shot marin or scv. wonder what people think of dt in pvp? i spilled my coffee laughing at this hilarious comparisation between dts and flying dts also the detector comparisation is quite hilarious
Please don't ridicule yourself and please make your point clear, I said it's for the sake of stating the facts in this dt/banshee context.
bashee does not equal to flying dt, tell me how you can warp in a banshee anywhere on the map. I just don't think that one flying ability outweighs all the other advantages dt has.
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and now that we've established that dt > banshee, I think its time this thread was closed... :D
too bad, what started out a great thread turned into...well... dt > banshee.
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On December 15 2010 06:31 Hellye wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 06:14 itsMAHVELbaybee wrote:On December 15 2010 05:43 Hellye wrote:
Ghost needs to fucking walk 1 at time while your warped-in templars storm and feedback just about everything in 5 seconds..
Doesnt sound balanced to me comparing to ghosts..
Dont terrans have the best dropships??? Arent ghost great at HT sniping and can even cloak?? I rarely see any Terran use ghosts with medivacs. You dont need to walk them, Drop them beside the army and kill those HT. Ghost are so imba against Protoss that it isnt even funny. The whole EMP vs Storm battle is so T favoured that i just dont know how you can complain. You just arent used to having to micro so much in battles. BTW: Storm is only really op if you go heavy marines. Arent you expected to be owned hard if you just mass the same basic unit all game? Oh don't worry about medivacs cause I think those templars also got that there feedback. Oh yeah those stalkers by the way, they shoot up. Oh yeah and lets not forget medivacs are target priority for most unit AIs. Oh yeah lets not forget the fact that you'd be throwing away 400 minerals and 400 gas if you put 2 ghosts into a medivac. A medivac that will die and not heal anything and ghosts that will EMP templar, watch them morph into archons and die as more templar are warped in ANYWAY. Cause you know HT have all the energy in the world. They can storm and feeback and ofc that feeback destroys the medivac. LOL Try to flank with 1 dropship of medivac snipers and ull see how powerfull it is to not 1a all units together but actually know wtf is going on with your most priceless unit. And do you know that stalkers cant shoot to all places at once? Btw do you know u got more than just EMP right? SNIPE is also a skill! Ofc i see you forget ghosts can attack.... how silly of you
Oh true cause protoss is oh so blind to oh so cute medivac flanking. That risking a medivac into the frey(map dependent for positioning). Cause protoss will kindly let you do as you please when observers are on lunch break or something. Like templar can't defend themselves?
Even if you manage cute cloak+snipe play, that means waiting for ghosts to have enough energy to do such maneuvers while protoss don't give a shit. They wait 15 seconds after a templar warp in and gogogo. All the while your army needs to not die while minimizing energy usage.
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Ok I give up. I will switch to Protoss now. TvP is such an auto-lose situation it is not worth playing any more.
I look forward to abusing DT, HT, Colossus, Carriers and Zealots with speed. I also look forward to beating Terran players twice as good as me.
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damn those protoss that use mass sentry, colossus, ht, observers and sometimes even phoenix(read it in another thread) to kill my marines.
I mean all these units are gas heavy but they just spam them like mad.
killed/emped some hts? No problem just warp in 8 more hts, i mean every good player has 1200 gas in bank all the time while spamming sentries, colossus, observers, stalker and phoenix/voidrays.
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On December 15 2010 06:31 Hellye wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 06:14 itsMAHVELbaybee wrote:On December 15 2010 05:43 Hellye wrote:
Ghost needs to fucking walk 1 at time while your warped-in templars storm and feedback just about everything in 5 seconds..
Doesnt sound balanced to me comparing to ghosts..
Dont terrans have the best dropships??? Arent ghost great at HT sniping and can even cloak?? I rarely see any Terran use ghosts with medivacs. You dont need to walk them, Drop them beside the army and kill those HT. Ghost are so imba against Protoss that it isnt even funny. The whole EMP vs Storm battle is so T favoured that i just dont know how you can complain. You just arent used to having to micro so much in battles. BTW: Storm is only really op if you go heavy marines. Arent you expected to be owned hard if you just mass the same basic unit all game? Oh don't worry about medivacs cause I think those templars also got that there feedback. Oh yeah those stalkers by the way, they shoot up. Oh yeah and lets not forget medivacs are target priority for most unit AIs. Oh yeah lets not forget the fact that you'd be throwing away 400 minerals and 400 gas if you put 2 ghosts into a medivac. A medivac that will die and not heal anything and ghosts that will EMP templar, watch them morph into archons and die as more templar are warped in ANYWAY. Cause you know HT have all the energy in the world. They can storm and feeback and ofc that feeback destroys the medivac. LOL Try to flank with 1 dropship of medivac snipers and ull see how powerfull it is to not 1a all units together but actually know wtf is going on with your most priceless unit. And do you know that stalkers cant shoot to all places at once? Btw do you know u got more than just EMP right? SNIPE is also a skill! Ofc i see you forget ghosts can attack.... how silly of you
Lol, protoss who think they have to micro more than terran is just facepalm, also i think that terran know how to use their units more than a random protoss player does. The fact is ht DO have all the energy in the world when they have the amulet because tbh in any battle they will all die if u lose right? but generally survive if u win. So that one storm they get is all they need for 1 fight and if u win, they start regening energy :O.
Also your comment about snipe is quite hilarious, the apm requiremtn for using all your energy before your fedback or just outright killed is insane, all the while you have to stim and stutter step mmm and move your vikings into collosi and if u have a raven drop a pdd before its fedback. All that in about a second is super easy to do rite?
Currently after protoss have the amulet they can warp in t3 units anywhere on the map, they also have the ability to win most encounters with a simple 1a, then storm key :S think is e and then click about in a random manner :S
Yes there are thing that terran could do to give them an advantage but they are already doing so much just to stay on par with the protoss. The fact is terran doesnt have a comparable t3 unit that can be build in the barracks, so as we need mmm to survive early game its nonsensicle to switch from it later on especially as it does well. Its like saying protoss should just stop using warp gates once they have collosi out, it just doesnt happen.
Also one last thing
BTW: Storm is only really op if you go heavy marines. Arent you expected to be owned hard if you just mass the same basic unit all game?
Last time i checked mass zealot was pretty darn good against pretty much all terran things aside from banshees and bcs for obvious reasons.
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2.2k Toss.
The biggest problem I see with TvP lategame is the lack of viability of mech in a straight up fight. It is simply impossible with the way Tanks work now (no overkill) to make Tanks good enough agasint beefy Protoss units without making them way too strong against Zerg.
Terrans respond to this by sticking heavily on Bio at all stages of the game. And once High Templar and Collosi are both out, Terran is simply going to die if they're Bio heavy. Nothing imbalanced about that IMO, as it is the ultimate endgame response to a Bio army.
One thing most Terrans HAVEN'T been trying (thank god) is heavy Starport play. I think I remember seeing someone mention SkyTerran earlier. A mass Banshee/Raven (like, 4 Ports-2/3Rax) midgame with a few Vikings to snipe obs is EXTREMELY obnoxious to deal with.
I have a very strong feeling that the recent Protoss buffs (Phoenix build time decrease and Obs cost decrease) had alot to do with Blizzard inhouse testing of mass Terran air builds in TvP.
Mass Terran air completely shuts down Collosus tech, so one of your two nemesis has been eliminated. It either forces Stargate, which delays Templar (AoE) and makes your Bio more effective into the lategame. Or it forces a Templar response for Storm, which has a severe mobility disadvantage to your air army, opens up harrassment opportunities and gives you map control to expand, and can be countered with Ghosts.
I don't know the timings too well because I don't play Terran, but it seems like off of a 2Rax FE you should be able to defend pretty well with Bunkers until you get your Starports rolling.
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As a macro-based player I personally feel that after a certain point in the game (usually when both have 3 bases) there is nothing I can do to hurt the protoss. In a full out engagement even with ghosts/MMM and tanks/ravens/vikings or something mixed in I lose and bad. I am constantly reinforcing my army at my base, it's something that I just try to focus on since I am never confident in a frontal confrontation with a protoss late-game.
The combination of collosus + templars just makes my army melt away. I've tried using higher-tier units but they just get eaten alive by gateway units and suffer from the exact same problem that MMM has vs protoss that I cannot do enough AoE damage/dps to hurt the protoss enough to gain a solid footing.
What "sorta" works is constantly dropping on both expansions and main to take out buildings but that is only good if they are not producing units and have that critical amount of collosus to just storm your base. I really really really wish that terran late-game units were actually good late-game. Thors may be overpowered early on but vs toss later on they just disapear to immortals or zealots. MM may be good early-mid game but it just melts away regardless of upgrades/support and that's not even bringing up force fields in battle. It's very very frustrating that if you can't cripple the protoss early on and gain a solid advantage then you don't even get to fight them later on.
2.5k terran
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EPT
