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On December 14 2010 23:48 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2010 21:07 PredY wrote:
a lot of protoss players finally realising they don't need to tech up quickly and is better to get more gateway units (if you scout no starport) and get robo later, also HT > collosus tech but mix of both is really good (on euro server at least, mana showed it at dreamhack) If meta-game changes and more terrans go for quick cloak harass (again) then this will be problematic (again) - also how can you scout no starport and..."then"...get robo later? No offense, I know you are an amazing player, but basicly this in a nutshell is the problem: how the hell am I supposed to know if you are not throwing down a quick stargate? As you probably know very well, T can do this with tech lab baracks as well, as we can see eg. from Fenix. Maybe quick(er) hallucination will change this. Maybe faster buildtime for phoenixes will make 1 gate stargate 2 gate expand into mass-gate viable when you have some phoenixes out fast for harassment to afford a templar-tech with very delayed robo. @Topic: I think it - again - comes down to the problem of maps. I think terrans should take way more advantage of their midgame (if somebody tries to argue that MMM < gateway-units a kitten will die). But on the current maps there's not really "room" for outexpanding someone, as all bases are basicly quite clumped together. But on Shakuras, T can keep me on 2 base with drops/attacks while getting to 4 base if I tech straight HT. Then I am in a world of kaka.
what i meant was probably not really "scouting" but: with the first probe you can see gas/double gas, sometimes even 2nd rax or tech lab but terran will usually hide it. you can scout if T is going expo, or from poke ins with units you can see if he is going 2rax or 3rax or staying on 1rax (usually gets a bunker). then if you guess he is not doing cloak banshee you can get robo later, that's what i meant. this is for fast expanding protoss btw (with 4 sentry at best, vs some kind of 1base mmm agression)
in the coming patch the means of scouting will be easier for protoss (quicker phoenix/hallucination).
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You know, I was just watching day9's newest Funday Monday about BC rushes for the giggles, and I noticed something really crazy: they're getting out their first BC at 8:30.
Holy balls, how many Protoss builds can handle a BC/Marine push at 9 minutes?
Okay, probably quite a few builds, but it's still eye-opening how obscenely fast you can start slapping down BCs. I think I'll go off on a losing streak against Protoss to try to somehow make fast air.
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The biggest problem with terran imo is that they don't have a strong unit that is mobile unlike zerg and protoss.(collosus/ultra) This lack of mobility makes it almost impossible to win a macro game as you aren't able to defend your expo's nor do your reinforcements come in fast enough to kill your opponent in a big macro game. If let's say thor or bc were faster they would be viable and more terrans would use them. If they don't change this they should atleast add irradiate to ravens. Imo that's the only way terran could survive & even win a long macro game.
Btw, The fact that blizzard is about to nerf fungal growth is gonna make zergplay alot more boring too imo. So far blizzard's changes haven't really balanced the game but nerfed the players options. Imo they should keep fungal growth as it is, the only thing they should change is the fact that the units are stuck once it's casted. Basicly changing neural parasite into old school plague :p.
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On December 15 2010 03:58 Goose- wrote:
The biggest problem with terran imo is that they don't have a strong unit that is mobile unlike zerg and protoss.(collosus/ultra) This lack of mobility makes it almost impossible to win a macro game as you aren't able to defend your expo's nor do your reinforcements come in fast enough to kill your opponent in a big macro game. If let's say thor or bc were faster they would be viable and more terrans would use them. If they don't change this they should atleast add irradiate to ravens. Imo that's the only way terran could survive & even win a long macro game.
Btw, The fact that blizzard is about to nerf neural parasite is gonna make zergplay alot more boring too imo. So far blizzard's changes haven't really balanced the game but nerfed the players options. Imo they should keep neural parasite as it is, the only thing they should change is the fact that the units are stuck once it's casted. Basicly changing neural parasite into old school plague :p.
Terran is much slower than the other races, but if you want units the same speed and threat level as Colossus/Ultra- 3/3 Marauders with Medivacs. Seriously, 8 of these guys can break an expansion in less than a minute, which is about the same speed as Colossus/Ultra, and you cannot just fend them off with static defense. Marauders can outfight every Gateway unit in 1 on 1 combat using pure math when Stim'd, too.
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On December 15 2010 04:03 Scare_Crow wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 03:58 Goose- wrote:
The biggest problem with terran imo is that they don't have a strong unit that is mobile unlike zerg and protoss.(collosus/ultra) This lack of mobility makes it almost impossible to win a macro game as you aren't able to defend your expo's nor do your reinforcements come in fast enough to kill your opponent in a big macro game. If let's say thor or bc were faster they would be viable and more terrans would use them. If they don't change this they should atleast add irradiate to ravens. Imo that's the only way terran could survive & even win a long macro game.
Btw, The fact that blizzard is about to nerf neural parasite is gonna make zergplay alot more boring too imo. So far blizzard's changes haven't really balanced the game but nerfed the players options. Imo they should keep neural parasite as it is, the only thing they should change is the fact that the units are stuck once it's casted. Basicly changing neural parasite into old school plague :p. Terran is much slower than the other races, but if you want units the same speed and threat level as Colossus/Ultra- 3/3 Marauders with Medivacs. Seriously, 8 of these guys can break an expansion in less than a minute, which is about the same speed as Colossus/Ultra, and you cannot just fend them off with static defense. Marauders can outfight every Gateway unit in 1 on 1 combat using pure math when Stim'd, too.
8 Marauders and 2 Medivacs = 20 food. If the Terran sends 20 food worth of units to drop an expo, the Protoss just uses his main army to roflstomp whatever the Terran has defending his base, kills all his production structures, while warping in hts and zealots to defend the drop. Once a Terran loses his main army, it is almost impossible to come back as the reinforcing units get killed as they come out of the rax/factories while Protoss reinforcements get warped in at a different location.
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On December 15 2010 03:02 Jayrod wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 00:22 Caphe wrote:
Some very good points from posters above me. I want to add some more.
As a Terran player: I noticed that recently Protoss players use HT way more and in the mix with Colossus, they are too deadly to any Terran army. Protoss ball late game is...scary.
Right now what I do is attack them in some small timing window hoping to criple them enough to gain an advantage and work from that.
Also, prevent Protoss from taking his 5th and 6th gas(3 base) is crucial. HT and colossus are very gas heavy. With the 6 gas or more, its too easy for Protoss to switch tech. One minute Protoss has alot of HT, and then in the next fight, he just has some more colossus and Terran is screw.
Maybe its time to introduce mech into Terran army vs Protoss. Bio with Ghost is now having a very difficult time. Ghost-mech is the future end game.
I'd read the rest of your post, if you didn't open with a ghost-mech argument.
Ghost mech is true garbage, anyone with the intentions of meching will and deserves to lose outright anyway.
Hellions are garbage, their supposed to kill light units, but do such an incredibly shitty job that mech immediately falls apart.
Tanks can be steam rolled by mass immortals. EMP does not KILL immortals, you still have 200 HP to plow through all the while being up shot at with 50 dmg against armored while chargelot colossi eat away at your army.
Thors don't do shit cause chargelot surround pretty much wins that fight and no idiot will walk his colossi to get into 6 range of 250mm.
Even if you get your nice 10+ tank push going, you'll just get worn down by pure protoss macro as reinforcing mech is the slowest in the game even on even bases. All the while protoss get to do cute stuff like warp prism drop with chargelots, get you out of position for free and cower in fear as your unseiged tanks are steam rolled. Seriously you have mental issues if you think this is liable by any stretch of the imagination.
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On December 15 2010 04:18 Bladefury wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 04:03 Scare_Crow wrote:On December 15 2010 03:58 Goose- wrote:
The biggest problem with terran imo is that they don't have a strong unit that is mobile unlike zerg and protoss.(collosus/ultra) This lack of mobility makes it almost impossible to win a macro game as you aren't able to defend your expo's nor do your reinforcements come in fast enough to kill your opponent in a big macro game. If let's say thor or bc were faster they would be viable and more terrans would use them. If they don't change this they should atleast add irradiate to ravens. Imo that's the only way terran could survive & even win a long macro game.
Btw, The fact that blizzard is about to nerf neural parasite is gonna make zergplay alot more boring too imo. So far blizzard's changes haven't really balanced the game but nerfed the players options. Imo they should keep neural parasite as it is, the only thing they should change is the fact that the units are stuck once it's casted. Basicly changing neural parasite into old school plague :p. Terran is much slower than the other races, but if you want units the same speed and threat level as Colossus/Ultra- 3/3 Marauders with Medivacs. Seriously, 8 of these guys can break an expansion in less than a minute, which is about the same speed as Colossus/Ultra, and you cannot just fend them off with static defense. Marauders can outfight every Gateway unit in 1 on 1 combat using pure math when Stim'd, too. 8 Marauders and 2 Medivacs = 20 food. If the Terran sends 20 food worth of units to drop an expo, the Protoss just uses his main army to roflstomp whatever the Terran has defending his base, kills all his production structures, while warping in hts and zealots to defend the drop. Once a Terran loses his main army, it is almost impossible to come back as the reinforcing units get killed as they come out of the rax/factories while Protoss reinforcements get warped in at a different location.
I was commenting on his belief that while Protoss has Colossi and Zerg Ultralisks, Terrans have nothing that can quickly move around the map, taking down expansions and being a nuisance.
As to a drop on Protoss... Those warp-in HTs and Zealots cost 2 supply each, as well, and 8 Zealots won't beat 8 Stim'd Marauders, and 8 HTs are a joke by themselves. Even if he throws down a combination, he's dropping storms onto his own guys while you can kite with Stim and Concussive Shells, spread out because you only have 8 guys, and even if you just stand other the Storm, he'll still need a full 6.5 seconds to kill your Marauders. Your drop will tie up more or less equivalent supply's worth, and if he sends his 200/200 army at you and then warp in units to defend the drop as they die, you have ~20-30 seconds of free rein inside his base, with 8 stim'd Marauders you can drop his Templar Archives in that time, even if you have to run to it.
Protoss doesn't have all the perfect solutions, especially since if he warps in HTs he'll have to micro them just as much as you, and he has to check back in 5 seconds to get his warped in Zealots to A-Move at the very least, since you cannot queue attacking actions mid-warp.
It's still an even field if he decides to attack, except you have guys already in his base.
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On December 15 2010 04:24 Scare_Crow wrote:
[I was commenting on his belief that while Protoss has Colossi and Zerg Ultralisks, Terrans have nothing that can quickly move around the map, taking down expansions and being a nuisance.
I never said terran doesn't have anything to take down expansions, you just changed my words that way so they fit in your "marauders own everything without even microing them" statement.
I meant that bc & thor are too slow to defend your own expo's vs a smart zerg/toss. Once they arrived the expo is down and their army is gone. Meaning that you can only defend 1-2 expo's properly. This makes it quite hard to play a good macro game. While protoss can warp in alot of shit and zerg moves as the speed of light on creep :p.
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On December 15 2010 04:20 itsMAHVELbaybee wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 03:02 Jayrod wrote:On December 15 2010 00:22 Caphe wrote:
Some very good points from posters above me. I want to add some more.
As a Terran player: I noticed that recently Protoss players use HT way more and in the mix with Colossus, they are too deadly to any Terran army. Protoss ball late game is...scary.
Right now what I do is attack them in some small timing window hoping to criple them enough to gain an advantage and work from that.
Also, prevent Protoss from taking his 5th and 6th gas(3 base) is crucial. HT and colossus are very gas heavy. With the 6 gas or more, its too easy for Protoss to switch tech. One minute Protoss has alot of HT, and then in the next fight, he just has some more colossus and Terran is screw.
Maybe its time to introduce mech into Terran army vs Protoss. Bio with Ghost is now having a very difficult time. Ghost-mech is the future end game. I'd read the rest of your post, if you didn't open with a ghost-mech argument. Ghost mech is true garbage, anyone with the intentions of meching will and deserves to lose outright anyway. Hellions are garbage, their supposed to kill light units, but do such an incredibly shitty job that mech immediately falls apart. Tanks can be steam rolled by mass immortals. EMP does not KILL immortals, you still have 200 HP to plow through all the while being up shot at with 50 dmg against armored while chargelot colossi eat away at your army. Thors don't do shit cause chargelot surround pretty much wins that fight and no idiot will walk his colossi to get into 6 range of 250mm. Even if you get your nice 10+ tank push going, you'll just get worn down by pure protoss macro as reinforcing mech is the slowest in the game even on even bases. All the while protoss get to do cute stuff like warp prism drop with chargelots, get you out of position for free and cower in fear as your unseiged tanks are steam rolled. Seriously you have mental issues if you think this is liable by any stretch of the imagination.
You know, Immortals take 10 more seconds and 100 more minerals to build than Tanks, coming out of a facility that uses the exact same mechanics as the Factory. A Warp Prism takes 50 seconds, and uses the same structure the Immortals are made from.
A Siege Tank's attack speed unsieged is 1.04, and it deals 25 vs Armored, an Immortal's is 2.5, dealing 50 damage. They both have 1 Armor. Assuming a Ghost EMPs the Immortal, a Tank can attack 9 times before an Immortal destroys it, and takes only 8 shots to kill an unshielded Immortal. The Tank also gets an extra shot before the Immortal enters range. So, uh... If you take Ghost Tank and put up the Immortals, the Tanks actually win in a straight up fight. Of course, you need the Ghost, but he's made from Barracks, so you'll still have the same number of Tanks vs Immortals, especially since 2 Ghosts' worth of EMPs is enough to blanket something like 24 Immortals, unless you're suggesting you will individually separate every one of them before you engage (in which case you're walking them into the Tanks' guns single file, and you lose anyway). But what if you catch them while they're Sieged? (Lol, trying to catch the Tanks sieged). You move at the speed of 2.25, which means your first Immortal will walk into range of the tank after 3.6 seconds of entering the Tanks' range. That means you fire your first shot 0.6 seconds after the Tanks have fired their SECOND. If that same balling Ghost is still hanging around and EMPs you before you enter range (with his EMP range of 4 greater than your attack range), you will die in 9 seconds to one Tank, while your Immortal needs 10 seconds (4 shots) to kill the Tank.
So mass Immortal is nowhere near a counter to mass Tanks, since with the massive range 13 and a Viking spotting, he is immune to your High Templar while sieged, which means his Ghosts can EMP you without any danger.
This is of course in a controlled environment, and only about Siege Tank v Immortal, but mech is in no way unviable. ALL mech might be pushing it, as you need anti-air, but Siege Tanks won't be rolled over by Immortals, Colossi, or HTs so long as Ghosts are with them.
The biggest thing is that while Protoss units can trade shots with Terran units any day, Terran units balance it out by always getting to shoot first.
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Just want to point out a couple things.
You can quite easily convince yourself that everything is hopeless. This is how losing streaks happen and solidify. Too many terran posters in this thread have seemingly completely given up. You have pages of people arguing that Gateway Units > Rax Units (madness). People completely peeing on early ghosts, mech, etc. Such defeatism.
SC2 is an incredibly delicate game. The first thing bronze players learn is how these seemingly tiny things have immense consequences ("oh, I was just supply blocked a couple times for a little while, that doesn't really matter - my macro is still good").
I think that this thread is suffering from a lot of this, small adjustments can go a long way - more ghost usage mixed into terran play throughout the game is certainly undervalued and a huge asset.
Toss has some huge weaknesses, one of which is that it lacks the ability to run effective surgical strikes - and its units need to be grouped together to be most effective. That along with the rather large expense related to any sort of tech choice makes toss very inflexible - this is why people dont see a lot of warp prism use - toss units don't generally kick ass in small numbers, they need mixtures to be effective.
The utility of terran drops is pretty huge and certainly underdiscussed in this thread. That ghosts should be an absolutely standard component in mid or late game drops (both to emp defensive HTs or shields on toss buildings) is important. It's something small like that - like the inclusion of a single ghost in that dropship that could very well tip that game in your favor. Will it completely roflstomp all P? No. But it might just win you that one extra game, and its exactly those little advantages that add up.
There are a lot of issues like this, little things that tip the game in your favor. A lot of map specific improvements - putting a PF on the gold expansion on caverns for instance, this is a huge tool - and should be a primary goal for terran on this map (in pro games where terran can secure that gold with a well staffed PF - you almost never see terran lose - very rare) - especially when they add in that sensor tower (which you're seeing more and more of in pro level late game terran).
P is not a super invincible juggernaut of destruction. Focus on the strengths terran has, and how they can be abused against P's weaknesses and this thread (and your game) will improve. It's those little things that make the edge.
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On December 15 2010 04:42 Goose- wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 04:24 Scare_Crow wrote:
[I was commenting on his belief that while Protoss has Colossi and Zerg Ultralisks, Terrans have nothing that can quickly move around the map, taking down expansions and being a nuisance.
I never said terran doesn't have anything to take down expansions, you just changed my words that way so they fit in your "marauders own everything without even microing them" statement.
You wanted a fast unit for macro games that allow you to defend expos and reinforce, I give you Marauders, which work quite well except against a very specific group of units, such as mass Cracklings and air units (which Colossi also do not work well against in a defensive position alone. If you're bringing Colossi with support units for a defense, that's your whole army).
They're made faster than both of the other units and can stand toe-to-toe against both Ultralisks and Colossi due to greater numbers and Stim Pack, I'm not sure what you're unhappy about. Do Marauders not work as a backbone unit that move at similar speeds to Colossi/Ultras that can defend expansions in a macro game as well as be used in an army?
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I think the reason why air heavy terran play versus protoss is not quite viable is becuae terran doesn't have any fast air unit. On ground, Zerg has spdling/baneling; protoss has stalker(more mobility with blink), charge zealots and DT also have a stunning speed of 2.81 while terran has hellion and stimmed bio which is not bad. But in air, zerg has muta, protoss has pheonix, terran has nothing. Pheonix is not too bad at all, 10 dmg in 1.11 seconds compared to viking's 20 in 2 seconds, plus they can attack while moving which is good for sniping banshee and raven. I think banshee should be made faster, at leaster faster than stalker so they pose more threat to protoss early game, force protoss to get a few pheonix or set up some canons which delays protoss macro a bit. This way protoss can't freely, or at least without any risk, to do the very safe standard 3-step game : fast expand, defend some bio pressure with good ff or some immortal mix, and win the late game.
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On December 15 2010 04:42 Scare_Crow wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 04:20 itsMAHVELbaybee wrote:On December 15 2010 03:02 Jayrod wrote:On December 15 2010 00:22 Caphe wrote:
Some very good points from posters above me. I want to add some more.
As a Terran player: I noticed that recently Protoss players use HT way more and in the mix with Colossus, they are too deadly to any Terran army. Protoss ball late game is...scary.
Right now what I do is attack them in some small timing window hoping to criple them enough to gain an advantage and work from that.
Also, prevent Protoss from taking his 5th and 6th gas(3 base) is crucial. HT and colossus are very gas heavy. With the 6 gas or more, its too easy for Protoss to switch tech. One minute Protoss has alot of HT, and then in the next fight, he just has some more colossus and Terran is screw.
Maybe its time to introduce mech into Terran army vs Protoss. Bio with Ghost is now having a very difficult time. Ghost-mech is the future end game. I'd read the rest of your post, if you didn't open with a ghost-mech argument. Ghost mech is true garbage, anyone with the intentions of meching will and deserves to lose outright anyway. Hellions are garbage, their supposed to kill light units, but do such an incredibly shitty job that mech immediately falls apart. Tanks can be steam rolled by mass immortals. EMP does not KILL immortals, you still have 200 HP to plow through all the while being up shot at with 50 dmg against armored while chargelot colossi eat away at your army. Thors don't do shit cause chargelot surround pretty much wins that fight and no idiot will walk his colossi to get into 6 range of 250mm. Even if you get your nice 10+ tank push going, you'll just get worn down by pure protoss macro as reinforcing mech is the slowest in the game even on even bases. All the while protoss get to do cute stuff like warp prism drop with chargelots, get you out of position for free and cower in fear as your unseiged tanks are steam rolled. Seriously you have mental issues if you think this is liable by any stretch of the imagination. You know, Immortals take 10 more seconds and 100 more minerals to build than Tanks, coming out of a facility that uses the exact same mechanics as the Factory. A Warp Prism takes 50 seconds, and uses the same structure the Immortals are made from. A Siege Tank's attack speed unsieged is 1.04, and it deals 25 vs Armored, an Immortal's is 2.5, dealing 50 damage. They both have 1 Armor. Assuming a Ghost EMPs the Immortal, a Tank can attack 9 times before an Immortal destroys it, and takes only 8 shots to kill an unshielded Immortal. The Tank also gets an extra shot before the Immortal enters range. So, uh... If you take Ghost Tank and put up the Immortals, the Tanks actually win in a straight up fight. Of course, you need the Ghost, but he's made from Barracks, so you'll still have the same number of Tanks vs Immortals, especially since 2 Ghosts' worth of EMPs is enough to blanket something like 24 Immortals, unless you're suggesting you will individually separate every one of them before you engage (in which case you're walking them into the Tanks' guns single file, and you lose anyway). But what if you catch them while they're Sieged? (Lol, trying to catch the Tanks sieged). You move at the speed of 2.25, which means your first Immortal will walk into range of the tank after 3.6 seconds of entering the Tanks' range. That means you fire your first shot 0.6 seconds after the Tanks have fired their SECOND. If that same balling Ghost is still hanging around and EMPs you before you enter range (with his EMP range of 4 greater than your attack range), you will die in 9 seconds to one Tank, while your Immortal needs 10 seconds (4 shots) to kill the Tank. So mass Immortal is nowhere near a counter to mass Tanks, since with the massive range 13 and a Viking spotting, he is immune to your High Templar while sieged, which means his Ghosts can EMP you without any danger. This is of course in a controlled environment, and only about Siege Tank v Immortal, but mech is in no way unviable. ALL mech might be pushing it, as you need anti-air, but Siege Tanks won't be rolled over by Immortals, Colossi, or HTs so long as Ghosts are with them. The biggest thing is that while Protoss units can trade shots with Terran units any day, Terran units balance it out by always getting to shoot first.
Mass immortal plus mass chargelot colossi tech, you won't have enough. Hellions do shit to deter anything from surrounding your tanks. Even if you get the first shots off, zealots tank damage so well that it won't matter. And this is all the while microing your tanks to fire at the correct targets(avoid friendly splash damage), landing perfect EMPs and making sure nothing else is trying to kill you toss in stargate units and templar tech for giggles.
I'm not talking pure immortal, but if you invest more into immortals than colossi/stalker, you'll pretty much 1a mech EMPs and all. Believe me I thought ghostmech was a oh so fabulous idea, but you're dead wrong thinking you can get away with it. Not to mention theres no pressure made with ghostmech. You can do your cute hellion harass but warpgate and some smart probe spreading protoss is fine.
And the final truth: 200/200 ghostmech is not stronger than 200/200 protoss army. Period. So your strategy is flawed from the get go. 200/200 mech in BW was stronger than protoss 200/200. But protoss was able to reinforce much faster than terran mech. But guess what? Now protoss can reinforce even faster even stronger than in BW. Terran mech still remains the same sluggish style minus units that actually did any real damage to air.
Not to mention you're not addressing tons of timing pushes you can die to while trying to transition to ghostmech.
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On December 15 2010 04:50 paradisefar wrote:
I think the reason why air heavy terran play versus protoss is not quite viable is becuae terran doesn't have any fast air unit. On ground, Zerg has spdling/baneling; protoss has stalker(more mobility with blink), charge zealots and ht also have a stunning speed of 2.81 while terran has hellion and stimmed bio which is not bad. But in air, zerg has muta, protoss has pheonix, terran has nothing. Pheonix is not too bad at all, 10 dmg in 1.11 seconds compared to viking's 20 in 2 seconds, plus they can attack while moving which is good for sniping banshee and raven. I think banshee should be made faster, at leaster faster than stalker so they pose more threat to protoss early game, force protoss to get a few pheonix or set up some canons which delays protoss macro a bit. This way protoss can't freely, or at least without any risk, to do the very safe standard 3-step game : fast expand, defend some bio pressure with good ff or some immortal mix, and win the late game.
I'm quite sure that the banshee is already the fear of all protoss. Making it faster would make me as a protoss player cry. And come-on, who are we kidding, ht's are not fast and chargelots are only fast if they have something to charge.
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On December 15 2010 04:24 Scare_Crow wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 04:18 Bladefury wrote:On December 15 2010 04:03 Scare_Crow wrote:On December 15 2010 03:58 Goose- wrote:
The biggest problem with terran imo is that they don't have a strong unit that is mobile unlike zerg and protoss.(collosus/ultra) This lack of mobility makes it almost impossible to win a macro game as you aren't able to defend your expo's nor do your reinforcements come in fast enough to kill your opponent in a big macro game. If let's say thor or bc were faster they would be viable and more terrans would use them. If they don't change this they should atleast add irradiate to ravens. Imo that's the only way terran could survive & even win a long macro game.
Btw, The fact that blizzard is about to nerf neural parasite is gonna make zergplay alot more boring too imo. So far blizzard's changes haven't really balanced the game but nerfed the players options. Imo they should keep neural parasite as it is, the only thing they should change is the fact that the units are stuck once it's casted. Basicly changing neural parasite into old school plague :p. Terran is much slower than the other races, but if you want units the same speed and threat level as Colossus/Ultra- 3/3 Marauders with Medivacs. Seriously, 8 of these guys can break an expansion in less than a minute, which is about the same speed as Colossus/Ultra, and you cannot just fend them off with static defense. Marauders can outfight every Gateway unit in 1 on 1 combat using pure math when Stim'd, too. 8 Marauders and 2 Medivacs = 20 food. If the Terran sends 20 food worth of units to drop an expo, the Protoss just uses his main army to roflstomp whatever the Terran has defending his base, kills all his production structures, while warping in hts and zealots to defend the drop. Once a Terran loses his main army, it is almost impossible to come back as the reinforcing units get killed as they come out of the rax/factories while Protoss reinforcements get warped in at a different location. I was commenting on his belief that while Protoss has Colossi and Zerg Ultralisks, Terrans have nothing that can quickly move around the map, taking down expansions and being a nuisance. As to a drop on Protoss... Those warp-in HTs and Zealots cost 2 supply each, as well, and 8 Zealots won't beat 8 Stim'd Marauders, and 8 HTs are a joke by themselves. Even if he throws down a combination, he's dropping storms onto his own guys while you can kite with Stim and Concussive Shells, spread out because you only have 8 guys, and even if you just stand other the Storm, he'll still need a full 6.5 seconds to kill your Marauders. Your drop will tie up more or less equivalent supply's worth, and if he sends his 200/200 army at you and then warp in units to defend the drop as they die, you have ~20-30 seconds of free rein inside his base, with 8 stim'd Marauders you can drop his Templar Archives in that time, even if you have to run to it. Protoss doesn't have all the perfect solutions, especially since if he warps in HTs he'll have to micro them just as much as you, and he has to check back in 5 seconds to get his warped in Zealots to A-Move at the very least, since you cannot queue attacking actions mid-warp. It's still an even field if he decides to attack, except you have guys already in his base.
While Terran does have the option of a mobile dropping force, it is just not feasible to send away 20 food worth of units when there is a threat of a Protoss doom army at your front door. During the main fight, Terran has to spread units, emp, run from storms,while keeping vikings from being exposed in the front. It is virtually impossible to do all that while microing the drop force. Of course warping in to defend is impossible when the Protoss is already maxed out, but in that situation, anything short of a maxed out Terran army and 100% attention on micro will disappear along with all their buildings. At that point, it doesn't matter how much damage those 8 marauders can do.
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On December 13 2010 23:48 TurtlePerson2 wrote:
TvP is balanced in a strange way. Terran has the advantage until you reach the late game. If you let a Protoss player take a third base then you are dead.
How is that balance?
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Are people just making up numbers here? This thread is ridiculous. Stuff like Hellions aren't cost efficent (hitting 3 light targets, they are the most efficient dps Terran unit), or Templar moving 2.81 (they move 1.875), Immortal attack cooldown in 1.45 not 2.5. All this complaining and misinformation . . . this thread should just be closed.
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I'd like to bring up another detail that hasn't been discussed:
Terran's dependence on unit specific upgrade.
I feel that this is greatly hindering tech switches. Whenever infantry is discussed, concussive shells and stim (and usually shield) are included as a given. Sure.. no Terran in his right mind would use bio without getting those upgrades ASAP, but for the record I'd like to say, that without slow and stim gateway units would crush marine marauder.
The same is true for tanks. Without siege, they are 100 gas marauders. Hellions without blue flame don't cut it in any fight and can only be used in sneaky drops to one shot workers.
So transitioning from bio to mech comes with two extra costs:
1) The resources sunk into bio upgrades
2) The extra time before you have researched the needed upgrades
On the toss side, only colossi and HT have such a mission critical upgrade and one could argue even the case of the colossus, as it's role of splash DPS can also be done with range 6 and extra care (as long as there are no vikings).
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On December 15 2010 05:08 Darkstar_X wrote:
Are people just making up numbers here? This thread is ridiculous. Stuff like Hellions aren't cost efficent (hitting 3 light targets, they are the most efficient dps Terran unit), or Templar moving 2.81 (they move 1.875), Immortal attack cooldown in 1.45 not 2.5. All this complaining and misinformation . . . this thread should just be closed.
Guess what? Those are just numbers. Sure you're blue flame will kill those chargelots and speedlings in a nice 1a line the first shot. Then you'll be surrounded. You're great splash damage will become shit just like magic box mutas vs thors. Practicality, not numbers.
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EPT
