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+ Show Spoiler +On December 14 2010 20:17 xSuperflyTnT wrote:
I'm sorry but battlecruisers are not viable tvp, MMM is not viable late game if toss has amulet / storm Warp storms + collossi = gg T regardless of composition.
Battlecruisers ... feedback.. stalkers.. gg? Thors die to mass zealot immortal and since they take so long to build the protoss has plenty of time to rework his unit comp
Tanks are utterrly terrible vs Zealots. Because the nerf to the tanks made zealots essentially tank proof. Might as well be 20 charging immortals.
Hellions are very good vs the heavy zealots and I have had some luck mixing in blue flames thors mmm and ghost but quite honestly in the end the Psi storms just do so much damage and I'm having to Stim / EMP / Dodge storms / snipe with hellions / Reposition / siege if I have tanks / use my vikings .. and spread marines... all at the same time... while toss goes 1a 2 a 3 t shift t t t t tt t t t t t t t t t t t Therein lays the problem In order to be effective terran has a million clickies they have to hit and alot more movement to acomplish thats why it feels so desperate in fights.
So yes There are alot of Terran all ins, and if you are complaining about them then you just are not scouting / preparing properly.
One can theory craft all day about unit composition vs unit composition and never understand the dynamic of a fight. Anyone who says terran goes 1a win obviously has no idea how to play terran and would lose their mind trying to control all the multitude of unit types we must have to contend vs late game toss. This is why you see lots of Pros just going MMM+ghost+viking so they can keep the workload on an even footing EMP STIM move around alot to dodge storms and engage when it feels safe while harassign collossi with viking. They do this to reduce the micro workload. If you watch jinro play it is much the same. He just macros out tons and tons of mmm trying to keep up with his losses.
The more different units types you mix in the more difficult it is to control in a fight.
MMM is strong early game but not by any means unbeatable by gateway units with proper flanking and forcefields you can play havoc with mmm as toss. TvP Early game is balanced. If you are losing to mmm push try making more units and not rushing like mad for tech that you should be getting later based on your scouting.
I think that collossi are fine, I think that templar are fine and balanced. I do however think the amulet is a little over the top as even with perfect micro I emp all his templar and then he just warps in more and storms me to death. and templar+ collossi is just GG as terran has had to rely on a bio centric army to stay alive now he is just completley outclassed by tech with no real option for counter. Viking ghost argument. ok.. Works fine until he warps in more templar and storms you to death even though you got perfect emp hits...........
It's hard enough to viking harrass dodge and emp at the same time when you pull it off you shouldnt be rewarded with 4-5 more temps warping in and nuking your army...
Just my take on it.
Your take on this is very biased, as pretty much every terran in this thread.
I trust jinro on this.
"TvP Early game is balanced. If you are losing to mmm push try making more units and not rushing like mad for tech that you should be getting later based on your scouting."
"So yes There are alot of Terran all ins, and if you are complaining about them then you just are not scouting / preparing properly. "
This is just bull****. Its equal to a toss saying "Dont whine about late game, when you play for an early game advantage/win".
Also toss scouting options early game are really bad.
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a lot of protoss players finally realising they don't need to tech up quickly and is better to get more gateway units (if you scout no starport) and get robo later, also HT > collosus tech but mix of both is really good (on euro server at least, mana showed it at dreamhack)
terran players havent really adapted to it yet, obviously there are timings before HT tech finishes and P takes 3rd but because of lot of gateway units it's dificult to hit it and win, obviously maps play big role but i've had succes with bio+tanks mid game and in late game with 3+ expo i just add more factories for tank/hellion (and reactor vikings) and GHOSTS and UPGRADES!!! they\re very important. i had a cool game vs whitera on the ladder on shakuras where i went that and he responded with blink stalkers/ht/voids and ground army.
ninja edit: carriers are HUUGE problem because of their range (+ interceptor range) they own vikings and if you assume toss has HT tech then marines are ...
only counter are battlecruisers but .. don't really want to see carrier vs bc battles every longer game and even then P has probably advantage due to feedback
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Ok after reading it all through
there are many players who just ruin this thread.
We don't want your analysis why warpgate isn't imba etc. We need to find the solutions, so please people below the level the OP said hold your comments back, or support them with evidence, else, there is too much spam and this awesome discussion is being ruined
as what was stated and was somehow proven in high level play
some basic knowledge
-as jinro said, early game is ok as are templar warpins
-The terran has problems attacking toss, when he has HT with amulet. Even if he wins a fight, his units are so damaged he can't attack the protoss base
-Early game pushes are really strong due to good sentry play
-Terran can't safely 2rax or 1 rax expand as protoss can
-Terran can't attack the toss due to Forcefields
-you can't fight toss army with collosus head on with your bio/viking/ghost composition (like attacking into siege tanks)
-collosi and templar rape bio, it ain't even nice to watch and all the commentators talking about great storms seem to actually never have played the game
-Toss has his HT splitted in the back, because he doesnt need to feedback your ghost but to storm your units, we don't have the luxury
-2 thor push crushes protoss 1 gate FE, due to Force field being ineffective, but it gets crushed by zealots and immortals/collosi
-2 port banshee w raven crushes immortal/collosi, but has problem with Templar tech and stargate play and to some extend blink stalker play
Sollution/suggestion
Sun Tzu is always here to help
-If the enemy is strong evade him(as zers used to evade tank lines in bw, now tanks are pathethic, but you see the point)
-If you can't fight him in an even fight, divide his forces
(drop him and attack him, drop him and harras w banshees, whatever you do, you need a 2 frontal attack, else most toss players have not really a problem to shut it down)
Use the combination of the units stated above to even the big fight.
Thors in front to tank and hit the air and snipe observer and crush forcefields.
Marines BEHIND the thors to kill the incoming zealots.
BC above the army, but spread out a bit, now he needs to feedback you before you go yamato cannon crazy, so he needs his templar in the FRONT, emp them guys and after they qq tell them to l2p J/K
Now how to put it all together, the qxc vs kiwikaki game may be a hint as well as painuser vs liquidtyler and liquid nazghul at the dallas tournament. Both of the used banshees and vikings to snipe observers and then destroy the powerunits of toss. Toss needs more observers, this means less immortal/collosi. He can't force field air and if he doesn't make starport and u have enough raven energy its basically a gg for him. Nowadays toss players learned how to counter this strat, with going phoenix as a counter.
Now the thor comes to play, your useless factory is now really important. With thors, few vikings and banshees with raven you can do the same push as before, but now FF won't be as usefull and the air he got gets killed in seconds (as the thor does). The fights should be really even and you can expand behind.
Now usually comes the timing where HT hits and your best bet is BC as awkward as it sounds, continue to use your air advantage. BC's are great meatshield, tank a lot of dmg, have not so good dps but they have yamato. And now comes the fun part. He can either storm and feedback after, but your army is a little behind so he would have to move to it or he can feedback them with HT, but you have your ghosts there and can emp them. A situation where its feedback or loose my powerunits to yamato as opposed to emp and don't loose to storm. From there on you continue with your BC, thor, raven, ghost production, since these all cost so much gas u have tons of minerals,
Make a lot of CC's and PF around them. Use mostly mules to mine, SCV's cut into your army count and are too fragile to storm, warp. Make a few OC just for muling/scans if you can afford it.
Build those free BUNKERS, you can then build marines more safely and build hellions as a flank unit. It has many flaws but this is imho the way to go if we want to see a kind of head on battle of 2 high tech armies. Not to end it quickly but to go to the lategame without being overrun and adding the high tech units as toss and zergs do.
The other way around is some 1 or 2 base push or constantly trading units with the protoss so he can't get enough of them to run you over, while you tech to marauder, ghost, medivac, viking army with lots of drops and small army engagement.
Is there a high level play 2500+ like who tried such a strategy more than once, what are your thought on the play.
Replays
painuser vs liquidtyler and liquidnazghul
http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft2/news/13551-mlg-dallas-replays
qxc vs kiwikaki
http://www.root-gaming.com/replay/qxc-vs-kiwikaki-shakuras-plateau
also it would be nice if the topic owner summarized the good stuff from the thread and put them in the OP
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Another problem with ht's i noticed is the warp -prism ht drop/warpin against scvs. There is almost nothing a terran can do against it (or at least i havent found a way).
PF doesnt have nearly enough range to defend.
If you leave 3-4 (actually insert any number of units here) units then the P can warp in 2-3 zealots just to draw fire and with 2-3 temps (warpedin or dropped from the prism) can just wtfpwn all your scvs.
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TvP is just dependent on such narrow timing windows right now. If you can apply some early pressure against an expanding Protoss, make him over-react or make too many gates or throw down a bunch of reactionary cannons or something, there's this mini-timing off 2 bases where you hit a critical mass of marauders. However, you miss that timing by a minute, and he has 2 immortals, is perfectly safe, and is in the process of getting HT tech.
Really, once the game goes past 20 minutes, if you haven't already inflicted a ridiculous amount of damage on the Protoss and are in the lead, you've lost. Pros like iNControl have said that once the Protoss gets high templar with Khaydarin Amulet, they've already won the game. The only way to stop the amazing portable DPS of storms is making a whole ton of ghosts, getting cloaking, and getting the Ghost energy upgrade. However, if you EMP 20 templars (effectively making them temporarily useless), the Protoss can have 5 more of them with his army in just a few seconds. The same logic doesn't apply to Ghosts. If you lose 5, they have to build and walk to your army to be ready to EMP again.
It almost reminds me of a late game Zerg who is on 4 bases with a couple macro hatches. He can lose 100 food and be re-maxed in 30 seconds. Protoss can expend a huge amount of damage with storms, and have more damage ready in seconds because of warp-in.
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except for the fact that vs 4 base zerg you could grab wahts left of the map and turtle like mad with vulture mines/tanks and be perfectly fine. You cant ever put less gas on a protoss ever imo because if templars are ready and the 3th base is under construction the step to a voidray/carrier switch with defensive templars is a small one. And whatever protoss fanboys may argue there is simply no counter to voidray/carrier + warpin templars with mineral dumb in zealots.
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I only read the first few pages, and i'm a mere Platinum level player however i'd like to share my thoughts on late game PvT. I think that banshee/viking/raven should be included in your composition. You need enough vikings to kill off observers, the raven detects them and the banshees are there to snipe the high templar when they can be cloaked and not feedbacked. The banshees are also extremely effective against just about all protoss ground from that point if you've managed a solid number of them.
This would force the stargate play from the protoss by this time. Now i think that stargate play is much easier for terran to deal with, because marines are so damn good against it, vikings are solid and if flux vanes is indeed to be removed, then they get better. Also by forcing a stargate transition you end up with a pretty large timing window as you have vikings already for air dominance and presumably some marines around to dump minerals on.
I also despite Jinro's dislike for it, enjoy mech against the protoss. I find marine (bunkered) + tank + some thors to be superb mid game. The thors just destroy stalkers so well, and tank a heck of a lot. Bunkered marines are much much safer in there, they are incredible dps and its always been about keeping them alive, so, give them more hp effectively and invulnerability to storm. Tanks are self explanitary, they just do so much damage that again you force stargate play, but this time you actually force void ray or carrier, as the thors just screw phoenix so badly. Your bunkered marines should suffice verses void ray play, but if you scan to find out their transition i'd advise a double reactor starport play in response. Vikings are going to become necessary, as they'll either colossus bust if they think they can (not the best response to your play, but can work), so the vikings will bust that open. Verses void ray, with the ground support you have vikings will be sufficient and carriers lose to vikings anyway + have huge build time again leading to a large timing window for you.
I used to play protoss, then zerg and now random on ladder by the way.
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theres a reason why tlo, moon and morrow switched from terran to zerg, dont tell me its purely because they find zerg more appealing lol
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On December 14 2010 21:07 PredY wrote:
a lot of protoss players finally realising they don't need to tech up quickly and is better to get more gateway units (if you scout no starport) and get robo later, also HT > collosus tech but mix of both is really good (on euro server at least, mana showed it at dreamhack)
If meta-game changes and more terrans go for quick cloak harass (again) then this will be problematic (again) - also how can you scout no starport and..."then"...get robo later? No offense, I know you are an amazing player, but basicly this in a nutshell is the problem: how the hell am I supposed to know if you are not throwing down a quick stargate? As you probably know very well, T can do this with tech lab baracks as well, as we can see eg. from Fenix.
Maybe quick(er) hallucination will change this. Maybe faster buildtime for phoenixes will make 1 gate stargate 2 gate expand into mass-gate viable when you have some phoenixes out fast for harassment to afford a templar-tech with very delayed robo.
@Topic: I think it - again - comes down to the problem of maps. I think terrans should take way more advantage of their midgame (if somebody tries to argue that MMM < gateway-units a kitten will die). But on the current maps there's not really "room" for outexpanding someone, as all bases are basicly quite clumped together. But on Shakuras, T can keep me on 2 base with drops/attacks while getting to 4 base if I tech straight HT. Then I am in a world of kaka.
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Some very good points from posters above me. I want to add some more.
As a Terran player: I noticed that recently Protoss players use HT way more and in the mix with Colossus, they are too deadly to any Terran army. Protoss ball late game is...scary.
Right now what I do is attack them in some small timing window hoping to criple them enough to gain an advantage and work from that.
Also, prevent Protoss from taking his 5th and 6th gas(3 base) is crucial. HT and colossus are very gas heavy. With the 6 gas or more, its too easy for Protoss to switch tech. One minute Protoss has alot of HT, and then in the next fight, he just has some more colossus and Terran is screw.
Maybe its time to introduce mech into Terran army vs Protoss. Bio with Ghost is now having a very difficult time.
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This is my take on the matter:
@P T3
Amulet HTs > MMM, Banshees
Collosi + Immortals > Mech, MMM
Sentries > MMM
Carriers/VR > Mech
Chargelots > Tanks, Marauders
@T T3
BCs > everything if in equal number
Ghosts > HTs
Here's one thing for certain: you aren't getting out BCs in numbers large enough to make a difference, and ghosts, while effective against HTs/sentries, are actually near worthless against everything else - not even chargelots.
This may seem like an oversimplification but it is essentially meanlingless to push into warpgates as T as your MMM will evaporate. Unfortunately, you're going to have to build a ton of marines to mineral dump and keep them in the rear. So far, so good.
The only units that do decently are, surprise, air units. P does not have an answer to vikings and heavy banshees with marines sitting in the back. Phoenixes have such short range that they are practically worthless if the marines manage to avoid collosi, plus they aren't actually all that powerful against vikings.
Stalkers suck. The only way they will beat banshees is by getting blink, and there's absolutely no point blinking into a marine ball or thors. Meanwhile, tanks suck as much as stalkers. With the impending BT of phoenixes reduced there will be even less incentive to make them. VRs, immortals, chargelots and phoenixes completely crush them (ahh, what happened, BW?), and without large numbers blink stalkers and collosi (catching them as they unsiege) are not too bad either.
My hypothesis is this:
Transition out of MMM asap after the pressure is done. Make forcefields useless. Have solid fodder. Air needs to deliver the bulk of the DPS, and before they hit critical mass they can be used to harass.
Therefore Thors, Marines, Vikings and Banshees will always be in my composition. 1 Raven and ghosts to match HTs. We'll need to hit a critical timing window, preferably as the P takes a 3rd or amulet tech and gain a sizeable advantage.
Thors pound on stalkers/phoenixes. Marines will stay behind thors and melt VRs, blink stalkers and phoenixes. Marine control to avoid coming in range of collosi or storm is paramount. Meanwhile, ghosts EMP out HTs, immortals, sentries and stalker balls. Thors tank everything for marines - especially chargelots. Meanwhile vikings snipe high priority targets like collosi and VRs. Banshees also help snipe collosi and provide the bulk of the anti ground DPS.
Don't get ground upgrades; get air instead. Transition into 2 port (or more) BCs, ghosts and marines.
Looks incredibly gas heavy at first sight, but vikings and thors are actually not ultra gas heavy like ghosts are. Adjusting the composition to your enemy's is the most important thing you can do.
The idea is there - mitigate storm damage and forcefields by NOT relying on MMM. Abuse the piss poor DPS of stalkers and crush them with thors and banshees. Vikings snipe collosi and fare alright against phoenixes. Marines, when unmolested by AOE, wreck phoenixes and chargelots with thors in front. EMPs are always essential. Once anti-air is down, banshees and vikings go in for the win - nevermind if all thors and marines are dead. What use are immortals and chargelots now?
In theory it is sound. In practice I think you need incredible micro to pull it off. Vikings should snipe collosi and if he responds with stalkers bring in banshee + PDD support. If he responds by bringing HTs forward then you must very quickly EMP/snipe them before he can get a storm/feedback off on the banshees. Maybe it's better to waste cloak energy down to a very low point before engaging so feedback is nearly worthless.
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On December 14 2010 15:34 Black Gun wrote:
actually both thors and bcs are the epitome of 1a-units unless u use their sniping abilities...
imho these 2 units are underused in lategame tvp atm. i dont think that the future of the MU lies in tanks.
Well incoming voidray buff against massive surely won't make these two units more popular in TvP.
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On December 14 2010 23:23 4Servy wrote:
except for the fact that vs 4 base zerg you could grab wahts left of the map and turtle like mad with vulture mines/tanks and be perfectly fine. You cant ever put less gas on a protoss ever imo because if templars are ready and the 3th base is under construction the step to a voidray/carrier switch with defensive templars is a small one. And whatever protoss fanboys may argue there is simply no counter to voidray/carrier + warpin templars with mineral dumb in zealots.
when the fuck did we get vultures ! (read in the voice of the handicapped kid from the movie the ringer)
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Real problem:
Leave zerg alone = die to being out expanded and out massed in constant higher food count.
Leave protoss alone = die to higher tech like mass colossi or HT amulet or mass stargate units.
Leave terran alone = uhhhhhh, they have more marines and marauders than they did 5 minutes ago.
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On December 15 2010 01:16 shadymmj wrote:
This is my take on the matter:
@P T3
Amulet HTs > MMM, Banshees
Collosi + Immortals > Mech, MMM
Sentries > MMM
Carriers/VR > Mech
Chargelots > Tanks, Marauders
@T T3
BCs > everything if in equal number
Ghosts > HTs
Here's one thing for certain: you aren't getting out BCs in numbers large enough to make a difference, and ghosts, while effective against HTs/sentries, are actually near worthless against everything else - not even chargelots.
This may seem like an oversimplification but it is essentially meanlingless to push into warpgates as T as your MMM will evaporate. Unfortunately, you're going to have to build a ton of marines to mineral dump and keep them in the rear. So far, so good.
The only units that do decently are, surprise, air units. P does not have an answer to vikings and heavy banshees with marines sitting in the back. Phoenixes have such short range that they are practically worthless if the marines manage to avoid collosi, plus they aren't actually all that powerful against vikings.
Stalkers suck. The only way they will beat banshees is by getting blink, and there's absolutely no point blinking into a marine ball or thors. Meanwhile, tanks suck as much as stalkers. With the impending BT of phoenixes reduced there will be even less incentive to make them. VRs, immortals, chargelots and phoenixes completely crush them (ahh, what happened, BW?), and without large numbers blink stalkers and collosi (catching them as they unsiege) are not too bad either.
My hypothesis is this:
Transition out of MMM asap after the pressure is done. Make forcefields useless. Have solid fodder. Air needs to deliver the bulk of the DPS, and before they hit critical mass they can be used to harass.
Therefore Thors, Marines, Vikings and Banshees will always be in my composition. 1 Raven and ghosts to match HTs. We'll need to hit a critical timing window, preferably as the P takes a 3rd or amulet tech and gain a sizeable advantage.
Thors pound on stalkers/phoenixes. Marines will stay behind thors and melt VRs, blink stalkers and phoenixes. Marine control to avoid coming in range of collosi or storm is paramount. Meanwhile, ghosts EMP out HTs, immortals, sentries and stalker balls. Thors tank everything for marines - especially chargelots. Meanwhile vikings snipe high priority targets like collosi and VRs. Banshees also help snipe collosi and provide the bulk of the anti ground DPS.
Don't get ground upgrades; get air instead. Transition into 2 port (or more) BCs, ghosts and marines.
Looks incredibly gas heavy at first sight, but vikings and thors are actually not ultra gas heavy like ghosts are. Adjusting the composition to your enemy's is the most important thing you can do.
The idea is there - mitigate storm damage and forcefields by NOT relying on MMM. Abuse the piss poor DPS of stalkers and crush them with thors and banshees. Vikings snipe collosi and fare alright against phoenixes. Marines, when unmolested by AOE, wreck phoenixes and chargelots with thors in front. EMPs are always essential. Once anti-air is down, banshees and vikings go in for the win - nevermind if all thors and marines are dead. What use are immortals and chargelots now?
In theory it is sound. In practice I think you need incredible micro to pull it off. Vikings should snipe collosi and if he responds with stalkers bring in banshee + PDD support. If he responds by bringing HTs forward then you must very quickly EMP/snipe them before he can get a storm/feedback off on the banshees. Maybe it's better to waste cloak energy down to a very low point before engaging so feedback is nearly worthless.
I like this approach, though it may be focusing on way too many units.
The focus on air is interesting, I think it's acceptable to say that Protoss Anti-Air is the worst out of the 3 races, at least judging from how many people I know who cannot deal with Mutalisks. Perhaps we should work in that direction as well, since Stalkers do not do extra damage versus Banshees. I will try out some Viking/Banshees mixes in which I start a fight by dropping a Scan and going with Vikings first to snipe his Detection.
As to the people who consider PvT even and T just needs to L2P... Here:
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/1136961
Blizzard considers a win/loss ratio within +/- 5% to be balanced, and both NA and Korea PvT have a win ratio higher than that in Diamond. Diamond win/loss ratios matter a lot more than tournaments, because I'm pretty certain this thread is for regular players and not a bunch of pros.
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i'm a protoss player (2200 diamond), and I think the overall MU is balanced, but the stages of the game are not. Early game favours T, late game favours P.
If I can force 3+ base play, I will usually win pvt. It's rare that I win off 1 or 2 bases unless I do something cheesy or sneaky. With sub-pro level forcefield placements, MM > gateway units by quite a lot. Might be balanced when it's MC vs. Jinro, but for your average diamond player like me... forget it.
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I am not sure if the matchup is balanced on GSL level skill since I have neither the macro, micro or strategy skill to judge that. I just know that on my level (top 15% of Diamond) early games seems even, mid game seems to be in in Protoss favor and late game is almost auto-win for Protoss.
On my level the Protoss army are just much more cost effective past early game and mistakes from the Terran player are punished much more severely than mistakes from the Protoss player. If the Terran player fails to dodge a few storms they have lost the game but Protoss can get most of their army EMP:ed and still win the battle.
Protoss have 3 units that are great late game - HTs, Collossus and Carriers. Terrans really have nothing to look forward at, MMM is a good as it gets. This is both a balance and a design issue.
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On December 15 2010 01:58 farseerdk wrote:
i'm a protoss player (2200 diamond), and I think the overall MU is balanced, but the stages of the game are not. Early game favours T, late game favours P.
If I can force 3+ base play, I will usually win pvt. It's rare that I win off 1 or 2 bases unless I do something cheesy or sneaky. With sub-pro level forcefield placements, MM > gateway units by quite a lot. Might be balanced when it's MC vs. Jinro, but for your average diamond player like me... forget it.
Stim lets Terran roll right over Protoss Gateway armies, while FF rebalances the fight again, that's perfectly fair. It means T1 Terran has a big advantage if he gets Stim and engages Protoss in a location that the Protoss does not have enough Sentry energy to FF effectively, but most naturals, and especially mains, are designed for a small number of FFs to work well. This more or less puts P and T on equal footing in T1- P cannot march out and T cannot push in.
T2 sees Medivacs and Ghosts to make FF a bit less important, but P also get Immortals and Charge that gives P a Marauder melting unit and gives Zealots better DPS and Tanking ability by being right up in T's face. This Tier is still pretty even, since an only Marauder army comp will get rolled by Chargelot/Immortal, but T can actually get into the natural/main now, even if it's with just one Dropship or need some money EMPs.
T3 gives Protoss their Range 9 Colossi and HTs (usually pick one, since we're assuming Protoss is just not allowed to mine gas indefinitely on 6 geysers if T is even slightly competent), while Terran does not have anything to scale up in response. Mass Vikings is a good T2 hard-counter to Colossi, and better Ghost micro than HT micro (it's a big EMP/FB duel if both players are good with their casters) is a T2 counter to T3 Templar, but note that Terran can only counter at this stage. I don't think any high ranked Protoss players ever worry that their lack of aggression will result in a critical mass of BCs or Thors, because they just come out way too slowly.
Fully upgraded Terran Air will wreck most Protoss if they get the ball rolling hard enough only because most Protoss do not expect or have a lot of experience fighting Terran Air, not because they can't. I felt the BC nerf was a bit unneeded... It's already one of the slowest, longest building, and most expensive units in the game, it really does need to be to do more damage for the huge investment.
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I made an epic post on page 11 that terran's should read. I am a terran player.
tl;dr, be the zerg in TvZ. what this means is avoid direct engagement and harass multiple locations. If and when you do directly engage make sure you have a good flank and fantastic micro. Collossus are really hard to beat and fairly easy to use, but when you do figure out how to beat it you can make the Protoss look like a gawd dayum fool.
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On December 15 2010 00:22 Caphe wrote:
Some very good points from posters above me. I want to add some more.
As a Terran player: I noticed that recently Protoss players use HT way more and in the mix with Colossus, they are too deadly to any Terran army. Protoss ball late game is...scary.
Right now what I do is attack them in some small timing window hoping to criple them enough to gain an advantage and work from that.
Also, prevent Protoss from taking his 5th and 6th gas(3 base) is crucial. HT and colossus are very gas heavy. With the 6 gas or more, its too easy for Protoss to switch tech. One minute Protoss has alot of HT, and then in the next fight, he just has some more colossus and Terran is screw.
Maybe its time to introduce mech into Terran army vs Protoss. Bio with Ghost is now having a very difficult time.
Ghost-mech is the future end game. Speed rays make this difficult because the mech army is so immobile. The map pool also has quite a few maps where this comp is harder to pull off as early as many terrans are trying. Larger, macro based maps with a close third are ideal for this style of play. This is why it works on LT when spawning cross position or short air distance (which is not to say that protoss doesnt have responses to this style in those positions, blink stalker for instance) From a protoss players perspective, the real key is transitioning to the right techs at the right time. Its quite often that I lose to terran during these transitions and the transition from collossus to templar even on 3 bases isn't a fast one. The response the collossuss forces is truly what makes it difficult for terran bio when the protoss is good about keeping some sentries around.
Storm is NOT the problem as Jinro correctly pointed out. Storm feels more deadly than it is, but if you watch any resources lost station on this matchup when a player goes templar you will see why Templar are not auto-win. People don't think of things in these terms... terms of attrition, etc.. many top players don't even think in these terms and these are the players that will fade away on the scene when more mindful players come about. On the lower levels its even worse (~2500 diamond and below), people will blame templar over collossuss because they aren't satisfied with what is supposed to be the "counter" to the templar. If he goes collossuss your response is built into your play style, Marauder/Viking, if he goes templar you have to go ghost, use spreading tactics, be good with those ghosts, and have a general knack for realizing just because you are losing small bio forces here and there you are NOT falling behind. It requires more than just building a certain unit. I can guarantee more top terrans would rather go against templar than collossuss.
The matchup is one that feels very different between the continents now watching some of HuK's stream in Korea. The Koreans are so aggressive that Huk seems to have changed his playstyle quite a bit over the past week. On small maps he doesn't pylon scout anymore and vs terrans hes been going gates and double robo and really delaying his transition. A week ago I checked out the stream and he seemed to be getting crushed by every terran and every korean terran was super aggressive, streaming units in all early game and eventually breaking him. This week, with more reliance on collossus he looks alot more in control and quite strong.
On the NA/Euro servers the terans just aren't as good. You reference Sjow, but what has he done? Won a few online tournaments? He's not exactly a pillar of the terran community. Out of all the non-koreans I feel the one with the highest upside is QXC, but thats because he has an absurd amount of aggression
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EPT
