EPTTvP – A Terran’s view - Page 11
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darth_hater
Canada76 Posts
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Lockindal
United States73 Posts
[B]On December 14 2010 08:06 methematics wrote:[/] Secondly the best thing agianst ht is battlecruiser (with yahmato). sorry it takes t3 to beat t3, ghost are kinda 50/50 vs ht where the entire battle/game depends on micro. but once you get some bc its over. Im not sure why everyone thinks that they should win when their out teched. theres a great qxc game that shows bc>ht a few post back. sorry, but bc does not counter a good protoss. feedback, and bcs are too slow to dodge storms (80 dmg is still 80 dmg) + they morph into archons which arent bad against bcs, really. regardless of this though, i bet that replay was pre-bc nerf (when they were actually worth a damn) and any toss that gives you enough freedom to make the most expensive unit in the terran repertoire en masse (that also takes like 60sec to build iirc, not to mention 6 food) didnt punish you well enough. | ||
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Black Gun
Germany4482 Posts
On December 14 2010 14:59 darth_hater wrote: i think the real problem is that the protoss late game just requires very little micro, spamming storm is easy as hell where as terran has to do much more. thus a lower or even skilled protoss player will win against a terran everytime. actually both thors and bcs are the epitome of 1a-units unless u use their sniping abilities... imho these 2 units are underused in lategame tvp atm. i dont think that the future of the MU lies in tanks. | ||
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Endbringer
United States111 Posts
On December 14 2010 15:34 Black Gun wrote: actually both thors and bcs are the epitome of 1a-units unless u use their sniping abilities... imho these 2 units are underused in lategame tvp atm. i dont think that the future of the MU lies in tanks. BC's are "underused" because they are not good. Thors are ok, but they are really a slow unit looking for a job to fill. MMM does more dps and is more mobile than thors. The only thing the thor has going for it is that its basically immune to storm. Unfortunetly chargelots rape thors and a protoss late game has no shortage of those. Thors as they are right now, might be a decent thing to add to MMM, but they certainly do not replace it. Once again we have Protoss players telling Terrans they are morons for not transitioning out of Bio without realizing that there is nothing to transition to! You can add thors to your bio, or tanks, but the core is still a large force of units which get raped by storm. Mech is not viable at high levels of play, as Jinro himself stated earlier. BC's are awful at their cost. I have noticed that both Zergs and Protoss often tell Terrans they need to transition out of bio without realizing that Terran doesn't have any other good comp. You have to have bio as the core of your army or you lose. Any strategy for any race which rapes bio is super strong because even late game when toss has chargelots, HTs with amulets, and collosi T has to have bio. Our entire race is based around a T1 unit, the marine. Its not that the pro's are all stupid and just haven't experimented enough, you 1800 diamond protoss players aren't smarter than the Terran pro's. Their isn't a unit left to try. Until the game changes Terran goes Bio every matchup because Terran has no other effective unit comp in TvP. | ||
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HiHiByeBye
Canada365 Posts
if you put force field behind them on maps with narrow passages like xel naga caverns zealot absolutely tears through the terran army. All you need is few stalker 1-2 immortal at the back. If you are on 2 base (like early 2 base so they are not fully saturated yet) just spam like 4-5 sentry early and let them build up energy. It is so hard to emp all of them FF cast pretty fast I can post replays if you guys want EDIT: People say terran has timing window to exploit. Its not like protoss doesnt.. Yestoday i was playing Wolf and I went for a 1-1-1 build on Metalopolis close air spawns. All he did was make 1 warp prisim and did a WG push. There was no way for me to stop that. | ||
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Scare_Crow
217 Posts
On December 14 2010 14:50 Feos wrote: ghosts are expensive? as so many of you stated, terran has no minerals problems mid/lategame. so 150 is the same as for a HT. to get to ghosts, you have to spend 75 gas (100/50 ghost academy, 50/25 techlab) so lets add 150 gas for the ghost and we are at 225 gas. as a sentry costs 100 gas, there could be only 2 sentries. but why do you even compare the terrans costs with the protoss expenses? EMP costs only 75 energy so the statement that a ghost can use emp (with his 100/100 upgrade) once he leaves the baracks, is correct. there are some other points that make me wonder: first of all the protoss has to get those casters (HT/Sentry) as well as his bulk of the army (zealots/stalker). so why shouldnt terran be forced to spend the same amount of gas into ghosts to counter HTs as the protoss had to spent? of course you cant expect to counter a protoss with 10 HTs with 2 ghosts (at least the odds against a medium skilled toss are slim). in general a protoss seems to have to spend so much more gas in units than a terran (considering T1... marines/marauder vs stalker/zealots/sentries). somewhere in here was stated that "if you go heavy rax, you wont have the gas to support ghosts early on since you get your 2nd gas at 5 min or later" oh really? why not adapt and get the gas earlier? o_O also i think the ghost is greatly unerrated. is has the exact same dmg stats as the marauder has... just against light. ok, he has much higher gas cost but in exchangce you get some great spells and a unit that gets no extra dmg (except against archon). as for the warp in mechanics: it really seems that there are many (even high ranked) terran players that have some serious misconceptions about it. maybe to you guys it seems like the protoss is constantly warpin in and always at the right time and so on. you wont notice if he CANT warp in at the right time and at the right place. as for the macro: that isnt really that different from your rax. of course there are key differences but the basic macro and upkeep is the same. sorry, if i explain that too simple but it seems that many ppl havent really understood that: if you warp in a unit, it takes 5 seconds to arrive. a cooldown is triggered at the warpgate depending on unit type. after the CD wears off, the warpgate lied IDLE! now there are some consequences: 1. each warpgate has a certain unit throuput (means units per time) (same as most other producing structures like barracks, robo and so on). 2. since there is no queuing, the effective unit throuput decreases the longer the warpgate stays idle. why am i telling this? the point i want to make is that your economy always can only support so many warpgates (if ideally used). the more gates i build, the more "forgiving" this mechanic becomes (means the less it matterst if they lie idle too long, because you can simply use the additional gates to use the accumulated recources). so its still like every other unit producing structure! if you build 2 rax on 3 bases, resources will stockpile. if you build 8 rax on one base, you wasted a lot of resources to build those which could have been units instead. so now there is finally my point: if a protoss can always warp in or has too many gates his macro is bad (ideally... i know... late game gates will be added as reaching 200/200. so take this point mostly for early/mid game). so he spent resouces that could have been units. isnt it the same like forcing toss to spend resources on canons? why i wanted to write all that is because several "high level" terrans stated that warp in would be superior to conventional building. but thats not true. its different but it also has its drawbacks. + due to proxy pylon possibly short distances to reinforce army + very reactive because of the short "creating process" - lower efficiency in the case of unit throughput because there is no queuing and gates stand idle (no one keeps them on CD ALL game long, right?) - you have to change screen to rebuild (unless you are fighting with a pylon in range) if both player macro on a high level, the unit throughput of the unit producing structures should always about match the income. therefore it is wrong to say that protoss can reinforce FASTER (ignore chronoboost). it just looks that way because the terran units have to walk across the map and wont spawn at once ^^ i guess the most terrans who have this misconception have lost a few times to good warp in timings/places. as said above you wont notice if you win because of bad CD timings! i am terribly sorry that this post became so long and basic. i am sure most of you knew all that. and if i made some mistakes feel free to correct. maybe one or another player will learn a bit :< as for the HT warp in there have been said many things and suggestions. like that it is a huge investment to warp in HTs everywhere. people are talking here like protoss has unlimited warpgates and unlimited gas and all HTs have unlimited energy. i will admit that the lategame is in favor of protoss but maybe some of you should really reexamine some facts. if the protoss is able to sustain heavy HT warp in... maybe he just macroed better? how many times did you bash them for not being able to get HTs there in time? we always focus on our nerdrage and not our successes  one good point was that terran has to stay on MMM for too long. "so what do you expect? templar rape your t1 army" :< that is true but i have no answer for alternatives. well, some actually were mentioned but i dont know ^^ i think as it is today (this patch), terran has to rely on their high flexibility regarding movement/drop/harass. as we can see in games of qxc and jinro. spread the protoss out.,.. outplay him by being everywhere (so it looks like at least when i watch qxc play ). i admit, it is way harder to reach this high skill level (being able to multitask to that degree) that it is to get some good FF placements or storms. still i think this matchup has some room for development. for example the usage of ghosts.sorry again for that awfully long post ^^ hope it wasnt that boring and some of you share my opinion! My statement about the expense of Ghosts is in the context of rushing them to counteract mass FFs. That extra 300 gas spent to get your first Ghost is not spent on upgrades, teching to Medivacs, or Marauders can put a dent in your army by pushing back a lot of timings to keep your bio competitive. I get my second Gas relatively quickly (~25 supply), and I still cannot get Ghosts out in enough speed to affect anything early game. It's also a large gamble, since if the Protoss is going Colossus first, you don't have the infrastructure to get Vikings until 2-3 minutes later, and that really forces you to play defensive. I think it's possible that some players forget to queue up units during the middle of battle, so it feels like the Protoss can reinforce instantly while they cannot at battle's end. I usually have a group of ~20 fresh units at the end of a fight to use to press forward, as they were made during the fight itself, so I don't feel particularly disadvantaged by Warpgates, but my main gripe is the ease for Protoss to sneak Pylons/Warp Prisms into places, which requires significantly more resources to deal with than just a drop, since one Prism can bring in something like 16 zealots late-game, while a drop ship can still only carry 4 Marauders. And in most maps, it really is not possible to watch everywhere (who honestly can say they keep tabs on the backdoor route on Xel'Naga Caverns? Hasu wrecked Strelok's economy with 2 HTs from a proxy Pylon that way ~25 minutes into the game. | ||
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Scare_Crow
217 Posts
On December 14 2010 15:54 Endbringer wrote: BC's are "underused" because they are not good. Thors are ok, but they are really a slow unit looking for a job to fill. MMM does more dps and is more mobile than thors. The only thing the thor has going for it is that its basically immune to storm. Unfortunetly chargelots rape thors and a protoss late game has no shortage of those. Thors as they are right now, might be a decent thing to add to MMM, but they certainly do not replace it. Once again we have Protoss players telling Terrans they are morons for not transitioning out of Bio without realizing that there is nothing to transition to! You can add thors to your bio, or tanks, but the core is still a large force of units which get raped by storm. Mech is not viable at high levels of play, as Jinro himself stated earlier. BC's are awful at their cost. I have noticed that both Zergs and Protoss often tell Terrans they need to transition out of bio without realizing that Terran doesn't have any other good comp. You have to have bio as the core of your army or you lose. Any strategy for any race which rapes bio is super strong because even late game when toss has chargelots, HTs with amulets, and collosi T has to have bio. Our entire race is based around a T1 unit, the marine. Its not that the pro's are all stupid and just haven't experimented enough, you 1800 diamond protoss players aren't smarter than the Terran pro's. Their isn't a unit left to try. Until the game changes Terran goes Bio every matchup because Terran has no other effective unit comp in TvP. Pretty much.  All we can say is to macro and micro better than the Protoss, and use little tactics that Protoss do not expect and try to be everywhere at once while winning the main battle simultaneously. It's not as bleak as some people make it sound, though, but a refusal to use Ghosts against HTs has the same amount of logic of refusing to use HTs against Terran bio. Terran mech is noncompetitive, and post-nerf BCs cannot beat Blink Stalkers. Heck, post-nerf I lost a fight between 6 3/2 BCs and ~50 3/3 Marines, BCs are just not viable as anti-ground DPS right now, unlike Colossi. | ||
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manicshock
Canada741 Posts
I struggle in TvP mostly because my ghost play isn't nearly as good as it should be, and dodging storm. Killing one is next to impossible if they aren't retarded and can spam FF/later storm decently. I generally win when they give me their sentries, let me into their base or suicide their collosus. | ||
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positron.
634 Posts
On December 14 2010 15:34 Black Gun wrote: actually both thors and bcs are the epitome of 1a-units unless u use their sniping abilities... imho these 2 units are underused in lategame tvp atm. i dont think that the future of the MU lies in tanks. They are a move units and they have no useful splash damage except of air attack of Thors which only hurt phoenix and yamato which take a long time to fire. Higher tech of Protoss has insane AoE, Unless this game is drastically different from other RTS I don't see how such an expensive units as BC can be a part of the standard army since most likely you can only afford to field them once. The units that win games is always something that can be massed and remade at a reasonable cost. There are some idiots in here has the guts to say "lol take tier 3 to beat tier 3." What the fuck do you even tech to?? BC?? Why are Protoss not winning game with Carriers then? And thor is so much worse than colossus so don't even go there. | ||
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Scare_Crow
217 Posts
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Ulfsark
United States958 Posts
The possibility of banshees forces the Protoss to build a robo bay even if they do not want to as nobody wants to lose to cloaked banshees. Also I find a tank/bunker slow push with MM harass very hard to deal with at expos. | ||
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vnlegend
United States1389 Posts
Meanwhile, Protoss is like a rhino. When it's starting out as a baby it's fragile and can be killed. But as it grows, its armor gets thicker and its horn will fry your entire army in seconds. Toss can reinforce across the map anywhere and stalkers are ridiculously fast, P is the new Z. Thors suck and die to a simple gateway army, immortals, VRs, basically everything. Tanks have had their damage nerfed repeatedly. Protoss have a unit called the immortal meant to specifically kill the tank + chargelots take less damage. BCs are slow as hell and die to stalker FF or VRs, etc. TvP is just a case of slowly watching your T1 army become obsolete. | ||
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Techno
1900 Posts
TvP does typically come down to one battle. I am a Terran player that has recently spent a ton of time practising TvP: (peeling the onion) My style has been heavily influenced by qxc. Early game: You can only really do any significant damage if he fast expands: then you can rock the stim timing or you can Thor rush (get strike cannons and use them on immortals). Teching to banshees is mildly advisable but you need to be ready with bunkers if he moves out. A Standard Build Done Right: Try getting 2 baracks's before the second supply depot then making 1 marine, a tech lab, instant concussive shells and a reactor on the second rax. Move out with the marauder and rally your troops to it. Chill at the bottom of the ramp if conc shells hasnt finished. Keep poking up and down to see what units he has. If you did it right and its small map he will have 2 units maximum. Typically 1 zealot and 1 stalker or 1 zealot and 1 sentry. If theres no sentry you can attack right now, kite the zealot then kill the stalker. If there is a sentry try to get him to force a forcefield but the only unit you will trade for it is the marine. Clocks ticking till he gets an immortal or warp gate research finishes and he will be able to over power you (~50 food). A quick summary of options are: Pre-Mid Game Options: Third rax. Attack at the stim timing. Good luck with this cause its a dice roll. Good protosses will be able to defend it, bad protosses cry about it. Expand yourself, personally I don't do this, instead I Wait for him to expand, try to punish it with heavy bio Tech to Medivacs, drop ship harass Thor rush (strike cannons required, send at least 5 SCVs to repair) Banshees, both as a harass unit and en masse, which is discussed as an alternate to bio later For this guide, I will assume you just expanded around the time he did. He will probably attack you with an immortal timing or something. Might take some practise before you can defend it, but lets assume you defended it with a 2 rax early stim and are now expanding and teching to reactor-port. The midgame (the hard part) Be afraid of his army. Be the zerg in Zerg vs Terran. Find out what he is doing by any means neccessary (short of spending a ton of scans) and react appropriately. He is probably going gawddamn collossus. If you think he hasnt teched past immortals try not to be suprised when psi storm kicks your ass. If and when he gets 3+ collossus you gotta be hella afraid of any direct engagement. You will get rofl stomped. Heres the setup you want: 2 fully saturated bases, ~10 baracks (more than you usually make, eh?), 1 starport with a reactor, +1 weapons +1 armour at least, stim and combat shields obviously, ~3 ghosts, at least 2 medivacs, 2x as many vikings as he has collossus. Now its time to get fancy. Heres the game plan: Tactics: Get his army outta position. Your army works best in small squads, his army works best in a huge ball. Use drops and/or small ninja squads to get behind the frontlines. Position your vikings and the rest of your army in such a way that if and when he splits his army up you can attack a specific part of it. ie: position vikings so they can hit the collossus when he pulls back, position marauders to hit the stalkers. You need to split up your army into multiple groups as it grows in size. Use one group to 'lure' protoss forward and have the major part of your army sitting off to the side so that when he chases you into an open field with your army hiding somewhere behind him you throw down an EMP and a stim, get the vikings in from behind and pwn his army. Even if you do all those things, if you havent done economical damage you will take heavy losses, if not complete losses, from the engagement. Dont just sit and watch this happen. Basically your micro involves backing up and shooting. Use the H key for this. click behind your units tapping H every time you want them to shoot. Do it with the vikings and with the marauders. Make sure you never stop macroing and never get supply blocked. If you traded armies and he doesnt have HT tech. You have almost won. Attack right the f*** now with ~20 food squads. Seriously. Fill up your medivacs and send them to multiple locations. Dont be stupid and dont lose them though. Kill everything you can. He will likely react most heavily to the first one to hit, so after about 5 seconds of damage, scan the ramp of the base your attacking to see his units coming. Kill 1 stalker if you can and get the hell outta there hopefully taking no losses. Then micro your other squads. If hes still in it, get your third up and running (if its not already), plan for your fourth and take stock of your production capabilities, do you need more baracks? Also try to start adding in 1 or 2 factory's worth of tank production. Start taking some map control with like 1 marine, find his army, if you can rofl it then go rofl it, if you dont know then do the same thing that got you here. If he went HT instead of collossus you need ghost cloak. put your ghosts on a seperate hotkey and lure his army past your ghosts (hide them with terrain or cloak), EMP the HT's in the back. It takes 2 snipes to kill one which is less than an EMP, so if there split up, snipe them using the hotkey and fast ass clicking. Third base timing: when you both have 150+armies and are staring each other down or your beginning your drop ship harass. After you throw down your third you want to avoid direct engagement for at least a minute or 2. Probably make it a planetary. The Lategame: What the hell? You made it to the lategame? Well my friend, keep doin what your doin and youll probably win, but general ideas: If the unit count is low, emphasize bio. If the unit count is high, get the fuck outta bio. Alternates to Bio: Banshee, Marine, Thor, Ft Raven off 2 base Open double port banshee, send your marines a little forward to deny scouting. Your taking a risk in the early game for this build. Any damage you do with the banshees should be thought of as a bonus. Do not lose a single banshee trying to harass. Use the time to get an expansion above and push out with the title unit composition. Have at least 3 PDDs worth of raven energy. Thor Rush ProTip: Strike cannon immortals, pray he fast expanded. Bring ~5-8 SCVs. Mech I've never defended the "immortal timing" protoss push. Im not even talking about the immortals, just the timing. Void rays can beat it, hell even regular gateway units beat it. If you can somehow defend that and get on 2 bases with some factories pumping siege tanks and blu flame hellions though, you can do some serious damage around the time his first collossus comes out Reapers Last game I played where I went reapers I got 24 kills between 6 reapers by the 15 minute mark and hadnt lost a single reaper. A couple of those kills were sentries too and I killed some pylons. Speed reapers are a great opening but the trick is to keep them alive the whole game. Technically not an alternate to bio but definitely not standard. Once you learn how to play bio in the midgame though, you'll love it's safety. A lil about how I came up with this shit: I've been frustrated TvP lately too. Ya gotta realise that ya CANT fight collossus directly in the midgame just like how zerg cant fight sieged tanks in the midgame. I found a protoss practise partner who I still havent been able to beat, but I've been destroying tosses on the ladder as a result. The fact is that most tosses are used to Terrans playing poorly and are bad at reacting to well played Terran. If you wanna see some damn sexy TvP watch qxc. I first found about how awesome QXC is from a day9 daily where he drop ship harasses for the win with his first 2 medivacs. I have since been trying to play like him, only with a few tweaks. | ||
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naventus
United States1337 Posts
The problem is simple - if the game heads into the macro direction of BW, where we see decision making on 3+ base income, then evenly matched 200/200 battles are crucial. You can ignore this fact and call SC2 TvP balanced, but that will make the game strictly a subset of what BW was. --- But this isn't to say that the game has been fully explored. MASS ghost usage to deny EMPs AND blanket the army (when was the last time you saw 8 ghosts?), backup hellions to do the base push in (warpins are normally templar/zeal which hellions can dispose off faster than your remaining 8 marauder), even mass PDD perhaps at max pop. | ||
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darth_hater
Canada76 Posts
On December 14 2010 17:59 naventus wrote: The design goal shouldn't be that one race is stronger earlier and another is stronger later. What does that even mean - that it becomes a coinflip whether or not rockpaperscissors BOs turn out early? The problem is simple - if the game heads into the macro direction of BW, where we see decision making on 3+ base income, then evenly matched 200/200 battles are crucial. You can ignore this fact and call SC2 TvP balanced, but that will make the game strictly a subset of what BW was. --- But this isn't to say that the game has been fully explored. MASS ghost usage to deny EMPs AND blanket the army (when was the last time you saw 8 ghosts?), backup hellions to do the base push in (warpins are normally templar/zeal which hellions can dispose off faster than your remaining 8 marauder), even mass PDD perhaps at max pop. problem is ghosts and ravens are too fragile, expensive and take too long to build and Warp ins can be stalkers whenever protoss wants it to be stalkers instead of templar and zealots | ||
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Rmdx
Germany85 Posts
When it comes to toss there are mid / Lategame Comps who i feel are almost unbeatable which is coloss/phoenix with crit number coloss, ht/coloss/chargelots but truely good players just overwhelm equal players even without coloss and certain other combos. Oh and ye lategame there can be always hidden vray gathering and once theyr in ur base and charged its gg, cause its hard to break a toss when he has hts. So usually id think terran is or should be superior early game but its not in my oppinion, 2rax can put some pressure but you cannot kill a single good toss and you cant be too aggressiv or 2rax expand against a good toss, i even feel 1rax expand without pressuring is very unsafe, the recent diversity of toss aggression builds mixed with their 1gate/3gate/3gaterobo fe builds makes it hard to predict sometimes other than seein their gas go down or chronos. - do you think that mech works against protoss (tanks + hellions + thors + Vikings and early game some marines)? Mech does work but i wont be pure mech, banshee thor or banshee tank rine for early / early mid is pretty strong, late game against lot zealots and hts u can add blueflame or against stalkerheavy more thors tanks but it works fine if you stay atleast even in macro. | ||
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Cibron
Sweden253 Posts
Mineral sink. What else should we bulk the army with? Hellions are lolbad army units except for mass Zeal/sentry compositions Thors? Ok if all P promise to have a stationary ground army throughout the game. (this unit is a bad idea to include in any serious RTS game- needs shrink ray and better pathing) BCs, Siege, Banshee. Yes of course. But where do we put the minerals? T has good gas heavy units but with low HP (for cost). meatshield = bio | ||
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Thezzy
Netherlands2117 Posts
Even fast units with or without stim take some to full damage and as long as they are running, they aren't shooting, but are getting shot at. Add Chargelots or Colossi to the mix and any ground army is going to have a very hard time. Bio is good early game, but so hard to transition out of. You'll have all those Barracks and upgrades that become mostly worthless. I've dabbled with early Ghosts which are good, but still leave you with Bio in the end. I'd rather not rely on the P player not paying close enough attention to his sentry for me to EMP it in order to move up the ramp. Even then, Ghosts will reduce the size of the MM ball quite a bit, making the push weaker. This mostly leaves going for Air, staying defensively on the ground early on and forcing P to get Stalkers or just die to Banshees. Vikings and Ravens could be added with ground support as the game progresses. One important thing I've noticed is to be willing to trade units rather than kill one probe and then move your Banshees back. If you keep the Banshee pressure on, keep his Stalker count low (even if this means losing a Banshee or two) and pick off probes whenever you can, P is constantly forced to produce new Stalkers, can't really critically mass them as much as he'd like. Most importantly, teching to Storm, Chargelots or Colossi whilst constantly being pressured by Banshees is going to prove difficult. It's mostly theorycraft, but with Bio scaling so badly as the game progresses and Mech being so slow and counterable, could Air heavy builds be the answer? | ||
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Feos
Germany71 Posts
stalker seem quite good and useful at the beginning. dealing dmg to marauder (zealots as meatshield) or abusing their superior range against marines to outmicro them. but in the lategame they are pretty bad. they scale VERY badly with upgrades. it is very well explained in that one PvZ thread: Stalkers scale terribly with upgrades. Their measily +1 damage and lack of shield upgrades simply doesn't compare to the +2 for Roaches and the insane DPS of Hydras. +1 armor from the Zerg completely mitigates the +1 from Protoss on the Stalker and Sentry meaning their effectiveness, damage wise, against Roaches doesn't change throughout the game with equal upgrades. Meanwhile, a +2 Raoch has +4 damage, meaning they are dealing 4 more damage to shield and 2 more damage to HP (6 to shield/3 to HP at +3!). Thus, Stalker balls get crushed by Roach balls - particularly when burrow is thrown into the mix. So despite being the king of the early game, the Stalker becomes progressively worse throughout the game. Indeed for the most part, you will want to avoid stalkers in the late game, but we'll get to that later. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=167992 just switch roach with marauder and hydra with marine ^^ have you really aver tried to kill a BC with stalkers? its a pain in the ass... if you dont go BCs only, this is extremely effective, i would say. BCs tank the dmg while stimmed marauder will wipe the floor with the stalkers. BCs wont even die that fast to mass stoms. dont forget upgrades though. as for ghosts: they really dont die that fast as everyone thinks. they have 100 HP and count only as psionic and biological. so they will never take bonus dmg (except against archons). they even have cloak! dont be too paranoid about the observers. most protoss will have 2 or 3 across the map in mid to lategame. if you watch out for them, they are pretty easy to spot, in my opinion. so scan and kill them. ghosts even do bonus dmg against them ^^ as have written in my previous post: ghost do pretty good even dmg wise. the same dmg as marauder except against light (sentry/zealots/HTs/DTs). maybe you guys should just try out more variations of your MMM play with a lot of ghosts. they wont weaken your army as you all seem to fear. That extra 300 gas spent to get your first Ghost is not spent on upgrades, teching to Medivacs, or Marauders can put a dent in your army by pushing back a lot of timings to keep your bio competitive. ghosts also can hold off a ot of timings. have you ever seen a battle between an early bio army against an early gateway army? if the ghosts come early and you have stim and like 2-4 emps and just blanket the toss army, it isnt even close. its just ridiculous how the MMG rip through gateway units. just dont underestimate ghosts... keep trying them and soon the protoss players come here to QQ about them and how early you can get them :< | ||
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xSuperflyTnT
United States55 Posts
Battlecruisers ... feedback.. stalkers.. gg? Thors die to mass zealot immortal and since they take so long to build the protoss has plenty of time to rework his unit comp Tanks are utterrly terrible vs Zealots. Because the nerf to the tanks made zealots essentially tank proof. Might as well be 20 charging immortals. Hellions are very good vs the heavy zealots and I have had some luck mixing in blue flames thors mmm and ghost but quite honestly in the end the Psi storms just do so much damage and I'm having to Stim / EMP / Dodge storms / snipe with hellions / Reposition / siege if I have tanks / use my vikings .. and spread marines... all at the same time... while toss goes 1a 2 a 3 t shift t t t t tt t t t t t t t t t t t Therein lays the problem In order to be effective terran has a million clickies they have to hit and alot more movement to acomplish thats why it feels so desperate in fights. So yes There are alot of Terran all ins, and if you are complaining about them then you just are not scouting / preparing properly. One can theory craft all day about unit composition vs unit composition and never understand the dynamic of a fight. Anyone who says terran goes 1a win obviously has no idea how to play terran and would lose their mind trying to control all the multitude of unit types we must have to contend vs late game toss. This is why you see lots of Pros just going MMM+ghost+viking so they can keep the workload on an even footing EMP STIM move around alot to dodge storms and engage when it feels safe while harassign collossi with viking. They do this to reduce the micro workload. If you watch jinro play it is much the same. He just macros out tons and tons of mmm trying to keep up with his losses. The more different units types you mix in the more difficult it is to control in a fight. MMM is strong early game but not by any means unbeatable by gateway units with proper flanking and forcefields you can play havoc with mmm as toss. TvP Early game is balanced. If you are losing to mmm push try making more units and not rushing like mad for tech that you should be getting later based on your scouting. I think that collossi are fine, I think that templar are fine and balanced. I do however think the amulet is a little over the top as even with perfect micro I emp all his templar and then he just warps in more and storms me to death. and templar+ collossi is just GG as terran has had to rely on a bio centric army to stay alive now he is just completley outclassed by tech with no real option for counter. Viking ghost argument. ok.. Works fine until he warps in more templar and storms you to death even though you got perfect emp hits........... It's hard enough to viking harrass dodge and emp at the same time when you pull it off you shouldnt be rewarded with 4-5 more temps warping in and nuking your army... Just my take on it. | ||
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