EPTso many odd numbers and odd statements
i think it would be better if people would post replays to back up their stories
imo terran has an advantage over protoss early game and early game comes before late game so if you abuse this...
TvP – A Terran’s view - Page 10
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Tastinggood
28 Posts
so many odd numbers and odd statements i think it would be better if people would post replays to back up their stories imo terran has an advantage over protoss early game and early game comes before late game so if you abuse this... | ||
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Endbringer
United States111 Posts
Pre-nerf bc's were great against protoss and you saw them all the time. Post nerf you never see them because they are not worth their cost. I would guess the qxc game is also pre-nerf. | ||
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Tastinggood
28 Posts
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cskalias.pbe
United States293 Posts
I've been having reasonable success defeating P with 4 starport banshee into BC tech switch(the build opens marines + siege tank expand into 4 port once you have the 4 gas up). It's pretty nice because 4 port banshee induces the P to go phoenix and storm, neither of which are particularly good vs. BC. Even stalkers aren't a great counter cost wise although they do suffice if you don't have any PDD. I've never needed to get yamato but it might be necessary with the new patch to hit void rays. Alternatively iechoic mentioned a BC/Thor/Marine transition from his banshee build which I use less because I don't find the thor very useful and would rather use the factory for tanks. Maybe both builds are just stupid at master/grandmaster levels but it throws off enough P at my level that i'm gonna keep using it. Once I hit BC's I feel like the end game unit composition just continually shifts. They counter with void/stalker, i switch to viking/marauder or MMM, they switch to collosi, I go back to BC, etc, etc I haven't had issues with mobility. I understand its a concern to many people here but I feel strongest when immobile anyway ie, when P attacks into my defense, or when I get into siege range of a defensible point or expansion. Maybe some P will run chargelots all over the map such that I can't defend valuable expansions but typically they are too busy freaking out about the bc's/bio army or too afraid of planetary fortresses. | ||
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methematics
United States392 Posts
On December 14 2010 10:11 cskalias.pbe wrote: ~2300 Terran I've been having reasonable success defeating P with 4 starport banshee into BC tech switch. BC gets eaten alive by mass stalker(void rays and phoenix getting buffed though so not sure how long this is going to last). The bright side is, stalkers have a neat counter in point defense drone, and they have to recognize that they need those stalkers in time to protect whatever weak expand or position i'm trying to take. It's pretty nice because 4 port banshee induces the P to go phoenix and storm, neither of which are particularly good vs. BC. Even stalkers aren't a great counter cost wise. I've never needed to get yamato but it might be necessary with the new patch to hit void rays. Alternatively iechoic mentioned a BC/Thor/Marine transition from his banshee build which I use less because I don't find the thor very useful and would rather use the factory for tanks. Maybe both builds are just stupid at master/grandmaster levels but it throws off enough P at my level that i'm gonna keep using it. I haven't had issues with mobility. I understand its a concern to many people here but I feel strongest when immobile anyway ie, when P attacks into my defense, or when I get into siege range of a defensible point or expansion. Maybe some P will run chargelots all over the map such that I can't defend valuable expansions but typically they are too busy freaking out about the bc's/bio army or too afraid of planetary fortresses. thnx | ||
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4of8
Germany256 Posts
In the games I watched Dreamhack, GSL, GO4sc2 etc. the caster always says they need a lucky emp that hits most of the templar etc. But you doesn't need luck if you can easily emp the whole army of the Toss. | ||
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xVeta
United States38 Posts
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Scare_Crow
217 Posts
On December 14 2010 10:20 4of8 wrote: I was to lazy to read the whole thread, but in my opinion the reason why the most terrans have problems in the lategame against toss is, they stay to long on the bio-army. To have a chance versus storm you need lots of units with much HP for example Thors\Tanks. And you need obvious more then 3-4 Ghosts, if you have at least so many ghosts as your opponent has Templars you should do fine. And what I really don't understand is why cloak isn't researched instantly. In the games I watched Dreamhack, GSL, GO4sc2 etc. the caster always says they need a lucky emp that hits most of the templar etc. But you doesn't need luck if you can easily emp the whole army of the Toss. I think most of the commentators are just trying to build up tension, as there were quite a few instances in the Dreamhack and the Chinese coverage of GSL in which the commentators were making the fights sound a lot less one-sided as they end up (like going "oh man, does he have enough to hold off the Protoss attack?!" when the Terran has 8 yellow-life Marauders just pounding the remaining 6 Stalkers). But I agree that people should throw more Ghosts into the mix. EMP lets you fight his army at almost half health, and can stop Storms if you react faster. That and run some Ghosts or Hellions or anything behind his army to pick off his new batch of HTs, and drop at the same time and you're set. It sounds like a lot, but when you play macro intensive games you do need a high APM, since you're trying to play a game with a lot of production and units, because I have this suspicion quite a few people who begrudge Warpgates just forget their production during the middle of a big battle. | ||
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azhang
United States178 Posts
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positron.
634 Posts
On December 14 2010 10:52 azhang wrote: after ht+storm+IMBAmulet, its gg for terran, placing storms is the easiest spell to cast in the world You really have to rephrase your post to make it more elegant. | ||
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darth_hater
Canada76 Posts
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darth_hater
Canada76 Posts
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zyglrox
United States1168 Posts
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GinDo
3327 Posts
The problem is getting to BCs.  Edit: Now that i think about it this comp dies to storm. | ||
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adamb111
27 Posts
On December 14 2010 13:34 darth_hater wrote: spider mines with vision might actually save the terran race, it improves their lack of mobility and grants them vision they drastically lack. zerg creep tumours granting vision and observers constantly knowing where your army is just too damn good compared to what terran has. So what your saying is that observers, which arent too hard to spot, and creep tumors, which need to be managed, blow towers and scan out of the water? | ||
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HalfAmazing
Netherlands402 Posts
On December 14 2010 13:41 GinDo wrote: By far i have to say the best L8 terran composition is Marine Hellion BC. The problem is getting to BCs. Edit: Now that i think about it this comp dies to storm. You kind of fucked up the order there, then. Maybe before contributing you should think about the value of your contribution before sending it off into the world? | ||
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GinDo
3327 Posts
On December 14 2010 14:21 HalfAmazing wrote: You kind of fucked up the order there, then. Maybe before contributing you should think about the value of your contribution before sending it off into the world? Wow way to be a jerk. Try to be nice Take this advice from a good friend at TL of mine + Show Spoiler + Maybe before contributing you should think about the value of your contribution before sending it off into the world? Any how back on topic(Which you strayed from) On December 14 2010 13:34 darth_hater wrote: spider mines with vision might actually save the terran race, it improves their lack of mobility and grants them vision they drastically lack. zerg creep tumours granting vision and observers constantly knowing where your army is just too damn good compared to what terran has. Although this will help with mech. Over all it won't hel the current state of the game in that Mech still lacks strong Anti Air and Bio doesn't benefit from Mines in that their always running around with the bio. Plus mine dragging with chargelots would tear up that bio ball. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
I think mech play can be very strong, particularly against HT builds. As a mineral dump you can focus on Hellions and treat them like Brood War vultures; snipe HTs, harrass, scout, and kill zealots. Tanks are your damage dealers, and you have some spare Vikings/thors for AA. In BW you'd get a science vessel for EMP and detection, now you'd have to get a ghost and raven but the only difference is the replacing of the science facility with ghost academy and one extra unit is required; one rax is enough for ghosts IMO. | ||
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Feos
Germany71 Posts
On December 14 2010 05:21 Scare_Crow wrote: Sorry to answer someone else's questions, but just wanted to throw in my 2 cents. I have personally been crushed by Gateway armies that use FF well. I was 3 Rax-ing and they were 3 Gating, so it's not that I got out-massed, but for example, in Lost Temple, FF just makes it impossible for Terran to successfully fight anywhere but in the center. If I fight at the choke just past my natural, they can cut my army with ~4 FFs, and then just shoot things down with Stalkers. If I engage AT my natural, they can stop reinforcements with 1 FF on the ramp, and a wall of 2-3 starting from the cliff edge close to my ramp will force my army to run around to a new concave. If I fight anywhere but exactly the middle, they can FF along the walls that shield the Xel'Naga Towers to restrict army movement, and if I fight on the Gold expansion area I am beyond screwed. As to the EMP- I don't think it's that reasonable a counter for 3 reasons: 1. Ghosts are really expensive. Having them to counter Sentries is just not economically viable, especially since you have to keep up with your Marauder count to fight Stalkers, since for the price of one Ghost Academy and one Ghost, you can get 3 extra Sentries, and if those Sentries are not currently locking lips my one Ghost cannot stop all 3. 2. Ghosts need to get their EMPs off before the fight begins, Protoss does not. EMP on a spent Sentry or HT is pointless, so my Ghosts must get into position faster. Cloaking helps, but that's another 150/150, and one forward scouting Observer and one Observer with the main army will spot the Ghosts very quickly (and since Ravens are not common at all, I'd have to blow an EMP or Scan on the Observer). 3. Feedback outranges EMP. For a Ghost to EMP he MUST have 100 energy (oh, right, to whoever said that Ghosts can EMP out the Rax, I think you're wrong), which means that any time he is spotted a HT can just one-shot him and still have energy leftover for Storm. Since Ghosts generally try to get their EMPs before a fight starts (and are pretty easy to spot due to having energy bars), they're also very vulnerable to the units they're supposed to counter. ghosts are expensive? as so many of you stated, terran has no minerals problems mid/lategame. so 150 is the same as for a HT. to get to ghosts, you have to spend 75 gas (100/50 ghost academy, 50/25 techlab) so lets add 150 gas for the ghost and we are at 225 gas. as a sentry costs 100 gas, there could be only 2 sentries. but why do you even compare the terrans costs with the protoss expenses? EMP costs only 75 energy so the statement that a ghost can use emp (with his 100/100 upgrade) once he leaves the baracks, is correct. there are some other points that make me wonder: first of all the protoss has to get those casters (HT/Sentry) as well as his bulk of the army (zealots/stalker). so why shouldnt terran be forced to spend the same amount of gas into ghosts to counter HTs as the protoss had to spent? of course you cant expect to counter a protoss with 10 HTs with 2 ghosts (at least the odds against a medium skilled toss are slim). in general a protoss seems to have to spend so much more gas in units than a terran (considering T1... marines/marauder vs stalker/zealots/sentries). somewhere in here was stated that "if you go heavy rax, you wont have the gas to support ghosts early on since you get your 2nd gas at 5 min or later" oh really? why not adapt and get the gas earlier? o_O also i think the ghost is greatly unerrated. is has the exact same dmg stats as the marauder has... just against light. ok, he has much higher gas cost but in exchangce you get some great spells and a unit that gets no extra dmg (except against archon). as for the warp in mechanics: it really seems that there are many (even high ranked) terran players that have some serious misconceptions about it. maybe to you guys it seems like the protoss is constantly warpin in and always at the right time and so on. you wont notice if he CANT warp in at the right time and at the right place. as for the macro: that isnt really that different from your rax. of course there are key differences but the basic macro and upkeep is the same. sorry, if i explain that too simple but it seems that many ppl havent really understood that: if you warp in a unit, it takes 5 seconds to arrive. a cooldown is triggered at the warpgate depending on unit type. after the CD wears off, the warpgate lied IDLE! now there are some consequences: 1. each warpgate has a certain unit throuput (means units per time) (same as most other producing structures like barracks, robo and so on). 2. since there is no queuing, the effective unit throuput decreases the longer the warpgate stays idle. why am i telling this? the point i want to make is that your economy always can only support so many warpgates (if ideally used). the more gates i build, the more "forgiving" this mechanic becomes (means the less it matterst if they lie idle too long, because you can simply use the additional gates to use the accumulated recources). so its still like every other unit producing structure! if you build 2 rax on 3 bases, resources will stockpile. if you build 8 rax on one base, you wasted a lot of resources to build those which could have been units instead. so now there is finally my point: if a protoss can always warp in or has too many gates his macro is bad (ideally... i know... late game gates will be added as reaching 200/200. so take this point mostly for early/mid game). so he spent resouces that could have been units. isnt it the same like forcing toss to spend resources on canons? why i wanted to write all that is because several "high level" terrans stated that warp in would be superior to conventional building. but thats not true. its different but it also has its drawbacks. + due to proxy pylon possibly short distances to reinforce army + very reactive because of the short "creating process" - lower efficiency in the case of unit throughput because there is no queuing and gates stand idle (no one keeps them on CD ALL game long, right?) - you have to change screen to rebuild (unless you are fighting with a pylon in range) if both player macro on a high level, the unit throughput of the unit producing structures should always about match the income. therefore it is wrong to say that protoss can reinforce FASTER (ignore chronoboost). it just looks that way because the terran units have to walk across the map and wont spawn at once ^^ i guess the most terrans who have this misconception have lost a few times to good warp in timings/places. as said above you wont notice if you win because of bad CD timings! i am terribly sorry that this post became so long and basic. i am sure most of you knew all that. and if i made some mistakes feel free to correct. maybe one or another player will learn a bit :< as for the HT warp in there have been said many things and suggestions. like that it is a huge investment to warp in HTs everywhere. people are talking here like protoss has unlimited warpgates and unlimited gas and all HTs have unlimited energy. i will admit that the lategame is in favor of protoss but maybe some of you should really reexamine some facts. if the protoss is able to sustain heavy HT warp in... maybe he just macroed better? how many times did you bash them for not being able to get HTs there in time? we always focus on our nerdrage and not our successes  one good point was that terran has to stay on MMM for too long. "so what do you expect? templar rape your t1 army" :< that is true but i have no answer for alternatives. well, some actually were mentioned but i dont know ^^ i think as it is today (this patch), terran has to rely on their high flexibility regarding movement/drop/harass. as we can see in games of qxc and jinro. spread the protoss out.,.. outplay him by being everywhere (so it looks like at least when i watch qxc play ). i admit, it is way harder to reach this high skill level (being able to multitask to that degree) that it is to get some good FF placements or storms. still i think this matchup has some room for development. for example the usage of ghosts.sorry again for that awfully long post ^^ hope it wasnt that boring and some of you share my opinion! | ||
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darth_hater
Canada76 Posts
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