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On December 18 2010 06:42 Moja wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2010 06:37 Raiznhell wrote:
I agree that this thread should be closed simply because of the book-long poster because he's just doing too much talking and not enough thinking. And PaleBlueDot FYI I'm diamond if that matters I think around the 2k range but i haven't checked my rating in a long time and just been playing the PTR which is full of good players. If it means anything I've been matched against player's like Kawaiirice for example so ye.
You're arguments against Mech TvP are bad you assume tanks still overkill and all that garbage and you completely disregard the bunkers holding off the Zlots. I mean yeah 1 tank shooting at 1 zlot it takes 5 hits perhaps... but 16 tanks with 10 hellions and 3-4 filled bunkers with marines 20 zlots will charge and evaporate yeah they'll maybe take out a bunker damage your hellions maybe even take a tank or 2 but the result is cost effective if you had good placement. And they die so fast that your tanks will continue to smash everything else and of course this is all situational. you will not win 100% of TvP's with mech or even 100% of confrontations. Nobody can be like oh you just do this an you win.
You're also arguing against the slow push mentality of Mech like SC:BW never existed... you build more turrets than you can shake a stick at around everything and along your push...Have you ever watched proleague? And better yet in SC2 for Mech play is that vikings fly unlike Goliaths and there is no arbiter just a very slow Mothership for recalls.
I've faced everything from Mass collossi to DTs to motherships to Voidray-Carriers to mass immotrals and tons of phase prism warp-ins and i can tell you. At PRO LEVEL Mech is probably not great however NaDa and SlayerSBoxeR have used heavy tank builds. but bronze-2k diamond Mech is definitely a strong style assuming you are the better macro player. It's just a style that help if you tend to do late game. If you're really good at timings and early game pressure i full out 100% recommend you do MMM and get in your opponents face until he crumbles but i tend to play for the 4-6 base length games lol. Please post replays. I'm mostly curious how you defend a FE (which imo is necessary for mech vs P).
I'll play some more games and save them and post replays at some point Because i don't regularly save replays but the PTR is absolutely full of protoss. As for a FE I'll have to wait and see because while I've faced a lot of things 14 nexus and such like that hasn't come up yet cuz people know it's suicide to 3rax. Because i scout after building my first depot I might probably do a 1/1/1 pressure push or something or use the marine from my barracks to do a bunker rush. for something like a 1 gate FE i might just keep on the same track and try to take a faster third than him but 1/1/1 i think with the raven kills 1 gate FE similar to Flash's FD Terran build in SC1
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Wow alot of QQ here.
Here's the truth all you Protoss players. Mech sucks. Tanks suck in TvP. If your losing to tanks thats your own fualt. Post some replays of you losing to tanks and i bet i could point out a million things you did wrong.
This is sounding like when Terrans were telling Zerg that their race isnt UP in the early game and that TvZ Reapers weren't OP.
" Hurp durp make more Splings and Micro." - Ignorant Terran
Except now its. "Hurp Durp Make Tanks go Mech" - Ignorant Protoss
Truth: TvP mech Sucks. Tanks Suck in TvP. END OF STORY.
If you still say mech is good in TvP post a replay of effective MEch use. And i'll point out one or more of the following+ Show Spoiler +Voids, Chargelots, Carriers, immortals, Blink, Phoenixes, Collosi, WarpPrism, Archons(They tank massive damage)
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On December 18 2010 06:37 Raiznhell wrote:
I agree that this thread should be closed simply because of the book-long poster because he's just doing too much talking and not enough thinking. And PaleBlueDot FYI I'm diamond if that matters I think around the 2k range but i haven't checked my rating in a long time and just been playing the PTR which is full of good players. If it means anything I've been matched against player's like Kawaiirice for example so ye.
You're arguments against Mech TvP are bad you assume tanks still overkill and all that garbage and you completely disregard the bunkers holding off the Zlots. I mean yeah 1 tank shooting at 1 zlot it takes 5 hits perhaps... but 16 tanks with 10 hellions and 3-4 filled bunkers with marines 20 zlots will charge and evaporate yeah they'll maybe take out a bunker damage your hellions maybe even take a tank or 2 but the result is cost effective if you had good placement. And they die so fast that your tanks will continue to smash everything else and of course this is all situational. you will not win 100% of TvP's with mech or even 100% of confrontations. Nobody can be like oh you just do this an you win.
You're also arguing against the slow push mentality of Mech like SC:BW never existed... you build more turrets than you can shake a stick at around everything and along your push...Have you ever watched proleague? And better yet in SC2 for Mech play is that vikings fly unlike Goliaths and there is no arbiter just a very slow Mothership for recalls.
I've faced everything from Mass collossi to DTs to motherships to Voidray-Carriers to mass immotrals and tons of phase prism warp-ins and i can tell you. At PRO LEVEL Mech is probably not great however NaDa and SlayerSBoxeR have used heavy tank builds. but bronze-2k diamond Mech is definitely a strong style assuming you are the better macro player. It's just a style that help if you tend to do late game. If you're really good at timings and early game pressure i full out 100% recommend you do MMM and get in your opponents face until he crumbles but i tend to play for the 4-6 base length games lol.
I call bullshit.
The only reason your mech is successful, is because your opponents macro is bad and you managed to not die into a situation where protoss can't multitask pass 3+ base vs 3+ base. That's it. And guess what? You're strategy still sucks but your mechanics still prevail. That's all the case proves if there are even replays to back up your ridiculous garbage.
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BAM itsMAHVELbaybee is why I absolutely HATE posting in Strategy section. FINE don't like Mech don't use it. Works for me so I'm happy and it's a lot cooler and funner style than MMM IMO. If Mech sucks so bad I'll learn it eventually the higher I go but W/E like i said it's probably not good for PRO level where everything is perfect and there are no wrongs and they are gods walking among mere mortals. But if your 2k diamond or lower where nothing's perfect at all (believe it or not diamond players are terrible just like me and my 70 apm ^ ^) then I'm simply saying Mech can work because it does for me.
To everyone no matter what strategy you see in this section of TL it will never EVER win you 100% or even 60% of your games. I can tell you whoever says tanks are bad in TvP is wrong but you'll just argue it anyways but HEY Naama won Dreamhack sooo.... the logic behind calling a unit that has the longest range in the game PLUS does splash damage bad is beyond retarded.
Don't like Mech fine mass marauders stim and go all you want and call that a "strategy" lol
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United States9232 Posts
Get rid of the ability for toss to warp in templar units. Only zealot/sentry/stalker. Problem solved!
EDIT: Compensate by lowering time for dark shrine to finish, and decrease cost of storm to 100/100, same with amulet.
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On December 18 2010 07:23 Raiznhell wrote:
BAM itsMAHVELbaybee is why I absolutely HATE posting in Strategy section. FINE don't like Mech don't use it. Works for me so I'm happy and it's a lot cooler and funner style than MMM IMO. If Mech sucks so bad I'll learn it eventually the higher I go but W/E like i said it's probably not good for PRO level where everything is perfect and there are no wrongs and they are gods walking among mere mortals. But if your 2k diamond or lower where nothing's perfect at all (believe it or not diamond players are terrible just like me and my 70 apm ^ ^) then I'm simply saying Mech can work because it does for me.
To everyone no matter what strategy you see in this section of TL it will never EVER win you 100% or even 60% of your games. I can tell you whoever says tanks are bad in TvP is wrong but you'll just argue it anyways but HEY Naama won Dreamhack sooo.... the logic behind calling a unit that has the longest range in the game PLUS does splash damage bad is beyond retarded.
Don't like Mech fine mass marauders stim and go all you want and call that a "strategy" lol
It would have been easier to say, oh mech can work, here's my evidence. Rather than, oh mech can work, here's some text.
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On December 18 2010 07:28 FabledIntegral wrote:
Get rid of the ability for toss to warp in templar units. Only zealot/sentry/stalker. Problem solved!
EDIT: Compensate by lowering time for dark shrine to finish, and decrease cost of storm to 100/100, same with amulet.
get the nerfing mentality out of your head now as the sooner you do that the sooner you'll probably improve. Betas over man let it die.
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On December 18 2010 07:28 itsMAHVELbaybee wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2010 07:23 Raiznhell wrote:
BAM itsMAHVELbaybee is why I absolutely HATE posting in Strategy section. FINE don't like Mech don't use it. Works for me so I'm happy and it's a lot cooler and funner style than MMM IMO. If Mech sucks so bad I'll learn it eventually the higher I go but W/E like i said it's probably not good for PRO level where everything is perfect and there are no wrongs and they are gods walking among mere mortals. But if your 2k diamond or lower where nothing's perfect at all (believe it or not diamond players are terrible just like me and my 70 apm ^ ^) then I'm simply saying Mech can work because it does for me.
To everyone no matter what strategy you see in this section of TL it will never EVER win you 100% or even 60% of your games. I can tell you whoever says tanks are bad in TvP is wrong but you'll just argue it anyways but HEY Naama won Dreamhack sooo.... the logic behind calling a unit that has the longest range in the game PLUS does splash damage bad is beyond retarded.
Don't like Mech fine mass marauders stim and go all you want and call that a "strategy" lol
It would have been easier to say, oh mech can work, here's my evidence. Rather than, oh mech can work, here's some text.
Can't post replays as Most of my Mech TvPs are on the PTR ad the PTR just patched so any replays i could have uploaded are no longer able to be viewed.
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Give it up. Every pro gamer that has tried to Mech in T v P has failed miserably. Unless you have discovered some crazy new timing/tactic, you aren't going to change that.
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I've been watching Hashe experiment with bio-mech on his stream. He has been incorporating tanks in his TvP for awhile. He wins occasionally when doing so, but not often (He recently noted his troubles with TvP in an interview despite his dominance of TvT and TvZ). I respect his desire to experiment and last night when I saw him push with bio, tanks, ghost, and a Raven, I thought, "Ah, this is it-this is really going to work." He was rolled by gateway units and immortals even after landing a nice EMP or two.
Avilo wrote the guide on ghost-mech and he hasn't been able to pull it off post-tank-nerf.
I was terrible at BW but loved slow-pushing. In SCII, I am hesitant to slow push a toss because, as another poster noted, the backstab is too likely. Using Xel-Naga Caverns as an example, why would a toss engage my slow push when they can merely take another route and attack my third or my natural?
I'm not claiming imbalance, but I'm tired of toss saying that the problem is a lack of Terran creativity. As other posters have written before, we use or have used mech in our other matchups. We're not averse to mech. Yes, tanks and ravens can be incorporated into timing pushes. I think they have their role in TvP. But it seems to be a support role more than anything else (supporting MMM). Please stop telling us we lack creativity.
And when I do use banshees (often without cloak), please stop rage-quitting and crying imba. I'm being creative.
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United States9232 Posts
On December 18 2010 07:31 Raiznhell wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2010 07:28 FabledIntegral wrote:
Get rid of the ability for toss to warp in templar units. Only zealot/sentry/stalker. Problem solved!
EDIT: Compensate by lowering time for dark shrine to finish, and decrease cost of storm to 100/100, same with amulet. get the nerfing mentality out of your head now as the sooner you do that the sooner you'll probably improve. Betas over man let it die.
The game is going to be altered quite a bit over the next few years, get it in your head. There would be compensating buffs, but to suggest there aren't going to be changes is pure idiocy on your part.
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i think that terran can beat protoss late game with mech its just they need super high apm and perfect emps. early game getting out ghosts and enough tanks is just way too much gas
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On December 16 2010 07:08 noD wrote:
I thought most people were wrong this time, but I just watched a bw game today (flash x afrotoss) and man, it does felt like every single unit WAS balanced, carriers were strong, but goliaths and turrets could defend, it felt that the better player (i wont spoiler) would win and that happened.
On current sc2's tvp it feels that unless T has advantage it will show a countdown that when reached T auto loses ...
Haha, "in a match between Paralyze and Flash, the better player won (no spoiler)"...right.
Anyway, I feel the same, although I think your example applies more to TvZ than TvP. In BW the units were much more balanced overall, whereas in SC2, even if the races are balanced, the game is not. Every race has a lot of imba strengths and glaring weaknesses, and maps matter so much. It's hard to get a healthy metagame out of something like this.
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why do you need mech anyways just make marauders and vikings
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For anyone saying pros tried and failed to make Mech work well if you're watching the pros then just do what the pros do i was simply saying what i do and what works for me. MMM dont work for me i go Mech i said i recommend MMM for people with good timings and aggression play but im a defensive macro player and i like Mech and my best matchup right now is TvP so :/.
don't like it don't take it. like the pros so much? do what they do. BTW a lot of the influence to how i Mech comes from watching how Jinro used to play before going to korea for example a series of his against Hasu so.
All i said was Mech works for me and laid out a bit of detail of how i go about doing it and people are here calling me idiot an such so fine just go ahead and mass your marauders if that's the end all be all to this new game. I'm not TRYING to make Mech work it's WORKING for ME.
Again I'm saying. If the PROs don't Mech then just go do what they do and win all your games.
Simple...Done.
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Australia8532 Posts
On December 18 2010 08:21 travis wrote:
why do you need mech anyways just make marauders and vikings
Lol - so simpe a question..
Marauder viking sounds pretty groovy to me 
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On December 18 2010 05:52 towers wrote:
I wouldn't even respond to that post.
edit: you (the poster above me) use illogical arguments that do not deserve response.
For example, you say in SC1 tanks did more damage; therefore, in SC2 protoss takes less losses in a retreat for sieged tank based solely on 1 number. You don't take into consideration bonus damage, speed of units, HP of units, and other differences that might make your claim true, false, or undeterminable. It's a logical fallacy.
You are trying to compare an apple to an orange and consider it "proof". You do this a lot in the post, which is why it's not worth responding to.
double edit:
And why not look at the Tyler v Painuser match on Kulas? Painuser goes heavy mech at endgame T and wins. Wouldn't that be a good place to start?
Wasnt heavy mech at all, idk what you're talking about. He was just supplementing his mmm with a few thors and tanks and some banshees.
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On December 18 2010 08:21 travis wrote:
why do you need mech anyways just make marauders and vikings
you miss the whole point. In those games the P's unit combinations where variations of: chargelot, sentry, immortal, stalkers and HTs with amulet and storm.
Ok I watched all the games. EmpireKas made critical mistakes in the early game parts of all the games where he lost to many units. He also blindly made Vikings in some of the games despite not facing colossus in any of those which set him back alot.
On LT he finaly started to make ghosts against HT and even pulled some nice emps and snipes off but only after he crippled himself with again the false techchoice early game and with losing some marauders and marines that hang out alone at the watchtower. So Mana was 1 base ahead and harassed empires third with stalkers which gave him a lead. When empirekas started to do the right thing (making ghosts, emp, snipe) then he allready was behind.
-> to summarize the mana vs empirekas games: obvious wrong unit combinations, generally bad army control
Ok and then the mana vs servyoa game. I really liked this one because it was a back and forth game. servyoa made ghosts after he saw the HT tech and pulled off some nice emps. but then he sank his gas into medivacs(???) too much and mana pulled slowly ahead.
My conclusion:
I think there is a general missconception about medivacs. Yes they heal stimpack and storm damage away. but at what cost? they are not powerfull enough to keep marines alive and they dont heal costeffective against storm. If you dodge really well (which you often cannot because your army is too huge or the storm is right on spot of you etc.) then they are kinda costeffective against HT with storm. Go start a unit tester and see yourself!
Since Iam an exclusive protoss player I actually am biased I have to admit. But heres a challenge for you: next time you see a Protoss player choses storm tech, you sink your gas into ghosts instead of medivacs (you still make marauders ofc). Then you cover the P army with emps and try to snipe the remaining HTs (1 shot so they cant morph). Also research the energy upgrade and cloak so you can initiate perfect battles.
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I am a 3000 level terran player. And to answer your question, "How do I feel about TvP", I fucking hate it.
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Late game protoss has advantage. Storm with amulet is the real game changer. You need ghosts and use them well. The fact that most terrans rarely ever use ghosts at all just makes templar even more absurd to deal with.
Edit: Late game terran typically still stick with MMM. Templar is the perfect counter to that. Feedback medivacs and storm the army. Add a few ghosts and thinks become really different imo. Without storm, MMM ball will destroy protoss ground armies easily.
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EPT
