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On December 19 2010 09:31 naventus wrote:
Go look at battlereport #1.
David Kim uses marauderhellion core, with air support.
I can definitely imagine that this is what blizzard might have intended/balanced around.
well that's kinda over 9000 patches ago and blizzard probably doesn't have any intentions on balancing around specific unit compositions for matchups....although they were pretty keen on making tanks weaker and weaker throughout the beta and release for no good reason and not editing marauders -_-.
Although Hellions are amazing TvP and massing them and tanks just makes me feel warm and happy. Best way of dealing with what seems like OP HT warp-in after the khaydarin amulet upgrade.
I mean ghosts are a direct counter with EMP to HTs but HTs can be warped in and can just feedback the ghosts and have storms to spare. i find suiciding hellions to pick off HTS whenever possible to be the best way to deal with them.
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On December 19 2010 09:44 Raiznhell wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2010 09:31 naventus wrote:
Go look at battlereport #1.
David Kim uses marauderhellion core, with air support.
I can definitely imagine that this is what blizzard might have intended/balanced around.
well that's kinda over 9000 patches ago and blizzard probably doesn't have any intentions on balancing around specific unit compositions for matchups....although they were pretty keen on making tanks weaker and weaker throughout the beta and release for no good reason and not editing marauders -_-.
You can't tell me that tanks that did 60 damage a shot to everything was balanced.
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Things for Blizz to consider for next PTR/patch...
1. HT nerf. Remove amulet upgrade or make storm cost 100 energy. Alternatively, nerf storm casting animation (i.e animation starts where storm would hit 2-3 seconds before dealing any damage) and increase time span over which damage is dealt.
2. Colossus nerf. Change their damage output mode to +light, so they wouldn't be so effective vs tanks, thors, buildings, roaches, stalkers, and yes... vs marauders...
3. Warpgate nerf. The further units wrap-in from the closest nexus, the longer wrap-in animation lasts. Add to that longer gate cooldown. The fastest rate should be in area around any nexus about size of average staring base...
Will all above changes combined bring balance... probably no... Is current state of TvP balanced... HELL NO.
I understand that toss players would like to differ, but asking that this tread closed because they don't like it is pushing it...
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On December 19 2010 10:16 bluesoup wrote:
Things for Blizz to consider for next PTR/patch...
1. HT nerf. Remove amulet upgrade or make storm cost 100 energy. Alternatively, nerf storm casting animation (i.e animation starts where storm would hit 2-3 seconds before dealing any damage) and increase time span over which damage is dealt.
2. Colossus nerf. Change their damage output mode to +light, so they wouldn't be so effective vs tanks, thors, buildings, roaches, stalkers, and yes... vs marauders...
3. Warpgate nerf. The further units wrap-in from the closest nexus, the longer wrap-in animation lasts. Add to that longer gate cooldown. The fastest rate should be in area around any nexus about size of average staring base...
Will all above changes combined bring balance... probably no... Is current state of TvP balanced... HELL NO.
I understand that toss players would like to differ, but asking that this tread closed because they don't like it is pushing it...
Lol yeah sure and why not removing the protoss race ? Something need to be done concerning the hts, like making storm cost 85-90 energy ? So that the P player won't be able to warp and immediately storm everything
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On December 13 2010 23:24 4Servy wrote:
once protoss has the amulet its gg, its ridic how imba that upgrade is my dog can win with protoss after they got the amulet.
I call BS on this. Im not a terran player and I think I can beat your dog even if he has amulet. Heck give him whole map and ill one base terran him or her.
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On December 19 2010 10:16 bluesoup wrote:
Things for Blizz to consider for next PTR/patch...
1. HT nerf. Remove amulet upgrade or make storm cost 100 energy. Alternatively, nerf storm casting animation (i.e animation starts where storm would hit 2-3 seconds before dealing any damage) and increase time span over which damage is dealt.
2. Colossus nerf. Change their damage output mode to +light, so they wouldn't be so effective vs tanks, thors, buildings, roaches, stalkers, and yes... vs marauders...
3. Warpgate nerf. The further units wrap-in from the closest nexus, the longer wrap-in animation lasts. Add to that longer gate cooldown. The fastest rate should be in area around any nexus about size of average staring base...
Will all above changes combined bring balance... probably no... Is current state of TvP balanced... HELL NO.
I understand that toss players would like to differ, but asking that this tread closed because they don't like it is pushing it...
Its kind of funny while I do agree toss has way stronger late game. But you also have to take early game into consideration. How easy a terran crush gateway using with stimmed marauder/marine is just wrong.
I think its fine to nerf protoss teir 3 aoe, but in order to balance it. Toss would need stronger gateway units.
Current state of TvP is basically. Protoss defend till templar tech+3 base or attack/finish before stim. Basically 2 timing for toss.
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On December 19 2010 10:57 xbankx wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2010 10:16 bluesoup wrote:
Will all above changes combined bring balance... probably no... Is current state of TvP balanced... HELL NO.
I understand that toss players would like to differ, but asking that this tread closed because they don't like it is pushing it... Its kind of funny while I do agree toss has way stronger late game. But you also have to take early game into consideration. How easy a terran crush gateway using with stimmed marauder/marine is just wrong. I think its fine to nerf protoss teir 3 aoe, but in order to balance it. Toss would need stronger gateway units. Current state of TvP is basically. Protoss defend till templar tech+3 base or attack/finish before stim. Basically 2 timing for toss.
Well i didn't say anything about terran nerfs/buffs so it is a discussion, a start. It might not get us anywhere, but as long as journey is fun...
Please consider that above changes also affect other matchups. My idea also toches PvP (collosuss and warpgate rushes)...
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On December 19 2010 10:16 bluesoup wrote:
Things for Blizz to consider for next PTR/patch...
1. HT nerf. Remove amulet upgrade or make storm cost 100 energy. Alternatively, nerf storm casting animation (i.e animation starts where storm would hit 2-3 seconds before dealing any damage) and increase time span over which damage is dealt.
2. Colossus nerf. Change their damage output mode to +light, so they wouldn't be so effective vs tanks, thors, buildings, roaches, stalkers, and yes... vs marauders...
3. Warpgate nerf. The further units wrap-in from the closest nexus, the longer wrap-in animation lasts. Add to that longer gate cooldown. The fastest rate should be in area around any nexus about size of average staring base...
Will all above changes combined bring balance... probably no... Is current state of TvP balanced... HELL NO.
I understand that toss players would like to differ, but asking that this tread closed because they don't like it is pushing it...
lol, dude.. if your gonig to increase the energy to 100, then there is no point to the amulet. a 2-3 second animation is not sensible, even if you increase time span. 2-3 is enough to spot it and move away. it would be very difficult to hit anything with the storm. increasing the time span would likely make larger battles totally imbalanced because there are more units to hit and its even harder to micro around aoe for the victim. collosus damage to +light? lol? should the thor or ultralisk only do +light? the whole point of collosus is to help fight marauders, roaches, and the like. gateways units get an even fight by any combination of army consisting mainly of marauders, with or without storm. roaches, with burrow, own storm. the best way to fight them is with collosus, sans air.
lol at the warpgate nerf.. that is the best one. having a longer animation the further away from a nexus would do nothing. this is because most of the problems t players have occur when attacking an expo and a ht is warped in near a nexus (durfff). however, if one was to increase the cooldown as well, ! gg nf bl. these are not solutions.
having a longer animation based on unit cost is an idea though.
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On December 19 2010 11:23 adamb111 wrote:
lol, dude.. if your gonig to increase the energy to 100, then there is no point to the amulet
Exaclty!
2-3 is enough to spot it and move away. it would be very difficult to hit anything with the storm.
Voila!
+light? lol? should the thor or ultralisk only do +light?
Actually, Ultra does +armoured AoE and Thor does +light AoE vs air...
the whole point of collosus is to help fight marauders, roaches, and the like.
Wrong. The point of collosus would still be able to fight marines, cracklings, hydras, etc... All units with insane dps to fight without AoE... Not fight everything that is on the ground... Vs armoured P has another specialist...
having a longer animation based on unit cost is an idea though.
We are talking dude, thats good... But the idea of wrapgates was to help skilled users get that extra production due better multitasking (vs unit queuing), not to give bronze level players the best cheese tool...
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GSL 3 spoiler:+ Show Spoiler +
lmao how did the tank play work out for rain tank supporters, could it be they got totally countered in the face by a combination of zealots and immortals just like we said???
Also game 2 is a PERFECT example of why insta warp in storms are OP, rain did some excellent emps (which all toss say is all we have to do), got pretty much all the HTs, BAM NEW HTS STORM IN THE FACE GG.
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On December 13 2010 23:09 Nakama wrote:
When both have their 3 up it becomes rly hard 4 me tp spend my mins in time and i often end up having 1000 overmins and 0 gas.
Marines just die to collosi or ht in this stage of the game and arent cost effective if u dont mangae to kill all high tier units at the beginning of the fight.
The toss however can mass whatever high tech unit he wants and spend his overmins very easily into mass zealot, which once they have legs are the best dps u can get in my opinion. So while im having trouble to counter ht or colossi and spend most my resources into ghosts or vikings, my bioball jsut dies to spammed zealots.
Spending your money is allways better then not spending. 1000 minnerals could have been 1+ rax and 17 marines. 17 marines>0 marines and are very good vs zealots. Marouders are countered by zealots.
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On December 19 2010 12:31 statikg wrote:GSL 3 spoiler: + Show Spoiler +
lmao how did the tank play work out for rain tank supporters, could it be they got totally countered in the face by a combination of zealots and immortals just like we said????
That's a really dumb thing to say because:
A) He wouldn't have done it unless it's worked out very well for him on the Korean ladder as well as with his teammates.
B) oGsMC is being regarded as the best protoss right now and TSL_Rain is by far not the best terran so the fact that he did as well as he did anyways was impressive. and
C) I dunno about anyone else here but I'm not supporting just tanks I'm supporting tank/hellion combo with some bunkers and turrets thrown in and that's not what Rain was doing he was not doing Mech he was doing a Naama style biomech which BTW won Naama Dreamhack against a Protoss anyways so.
Why are you so against Mech anyways I mean seriously you really want to just mass marauders forever? I don't understand why you think the game should be solved with marauder massing this early upon release. I mean it's a given the marauder is a very good early game unit that can beat the crap outta most other units but once protoss has all of it's ridiculous splash units out and your just massing MMM it becomes less and less cost effective despite sometimes still edging out victories against late game toss and you have to admit that game 2 of Rain vs MC was epic and way better than watching the usual stim-kiting you see every day.
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I actually am not doing bio strategies in my TvPs right now I'm doing banshees, I'm against Mech because I really tried to make it work and it failed horribly basically every time, just like it did for rain, immortals and or zealots and even sometimes voids crushed me. You think hellions would have worked better then all those bunkers??? Hellions would have done so much worse...they dont work unless there are SO MANY ZEALOTS becuase the zealots just all charge and line up relatively horizontally while the hellion splash is verticle so its not effective. It needs to be utilized while kiting which is not possible if your using tanks.
Furthermore the Warp Prism which is underused on ladder right now is gonna become much more popular (which is gonna suck so bad) but its gonna be MUCH worse for you using tanks then anyone not using tanks.
Yeah whatever maybe a better terran might have won game 2 using the same strategy but thats a pretty weak argument because MC hardly played that game efficiently going all 3 tech trees on one base, made a bunch of dts and didnt nearly do enough damage with them, double expanded right before the push, and still managed to hold. Rain didnt make any such obvious blunders except you might argue he should have pushed harder on the contain, but the protoss was able to attack RIGHT INTO a bunch of sieged tanks protected by 5+ bunkers and WIN, that REALLY showcases how weak they are. When I was trying tanks out I have had protoss armies attack into my seige tanks before and win with similar army sizes and it just shows you how pathetic they are that you don't even need to catch the tanks unseiged or go around them necessarily.
The game was only good because MC wasted so much money on different tech trees/DTs and then MC still couldn't capitalize.
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On December 19 2010 11:54 bluesoup wrote:
Wrong. The point of collosus would still be able to fight marines, cracklings, hydras, etc... All units with insane dps to fight without AoE... Not fight everything that is on the ground... Vs armoured P has another specialist.
the Immortal?
don't be silly, Marauders are a cost effective counter against Immortals, once stim is out, it is not even close.
to be honest, your nerfs are silly, Colossus and HT have to be as powerfull as they are, any nerfs to them has to come along with a buff to gateway units.
... anyways, the real problem with Protoss is forcefields, not the COlossus and not the HT.
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On December 19 2010 13:13 Raiznhell wrote:
Why are you so against Mech anyways I mean seriously you really want to just mass marauders forever? I don't understand why you think the game should be solved with marauder massing this early upon release. I mean it's a given the marauder is a very good early game unit that can beat the crap outta most other units but once protoss has all of it's ridiculous splash units out and your just massing MMM it becomes less and less cost effective despite sometimes still edging out victories against late game toss and you have to admit that game 2 of Rain vs MC was epic and way better than watching the usual stim-kiting you see every day.
Yes I agree. If for example a protoss goes for 1 gate expand and the 1-2 rax expand into mass mm. He basicly have 3 timing pushes.
1: with 3-5 units and slow, often can get some probes.
2: when stimm is done.
3: when medivacs comes (if protoss has no aoe at this time it is gg because when it is 4 marouders and 1 marine left vs 4 zealots and 2 sentry the medivacs will keep every unit alive)
Later the game becomes mush more difficult for the terran when he can lose his army really fast to aoe. He can however get vikings to combat the colossus and ghost vs the ht but 4 storms that hits and aren't dodged = gg.
So you have your strong timings that is hard for the protoss to survive and if it does not work you have the disadvantages, that your build is mush harder to play in late game.
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TvP feels very difficult to me, a protoss player. Changing from MMM with early Hellion harass to tanks and banshees requires you about 10 seconds of lifting structures (just an example). Anything I throw at you I can expect to be countered within the minute.
As for the Ghost vs. Templar discussions that always come up in TvP discussions, I think mathematically they are about even, and it relies more on the player than the unit.
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On December 19 2010 10:16 bluesoup wrote:
Things for Blizz to consider for next PTR/patch...
1. HT nerf. Remove amulet upgrade or make storm cost 100 energy. Alternatively, nerf storm casting animation (i.e animation starts where storm would hit 2-3 seconds before dealing any damage) and increase time span over which damage is dealt.
2. Colossus nerf. Change their damage output mode to +light, so they wouldn't be so effective vs tanks, thors, buildings, roaches, stalkers, and yes... vs marauders...
3. Warpgate nerf. The further units wrap-in from the closest nexus, the longer wrap-in animation lasts. Add to that longer gate cooldown. The fastest rate should be in area around any nexus about size of average staring base...
Will all above changes combined bring balance... probably no... Is current state of TvP balanced... HELL NO.
I understand that toss players would like to differ, but asking that this tread closed because they don't like it is pushing it...
People are asking for this to be closed because it's just a whine thread, and doesn't belong in the strategy section. Take a look at your own post: if you want to demand poorly-thought-out balance changes, head for the battle.net forums.
For the one or two players who are suggesting useful tactics and strategies, I recommend collecting some replays and making new threads describing your particular TvP methods, so that this pile of rubbish can be allowed to die.
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On December 19 2010 13:59 Chargelot wrote:
TvP feels very difficult to me, a protoss player. Changing from MMM with early Hellion harass to tanks and banshees requires you about 10 seconds of lifting structures (just an example). Anything I throw at you I can expect to be countered within the minute.
As for the Ghost vs. Templar discussions that always come up in TvP discussions, I think mathematically they are about even, and it relies more on the player than the unit.
Wow that first statement is just beyond stupid. Second statement...how is this for an example, ghosts v HTs is a micro war so they are roughly equal against each other, lets even say that ghosts are slightly ahead 1v1 just for your sake because . Unfortunately, HTs also hard counter all of bio and softcounter banshees and medivacs, and are available much more easily for defence as well as for offense (I won't even go as far as to say instantly anywhere) and are much more effective at defence AND HTs are also AMAZING at totally wiping out SCV lines. Ghosts perhaps soft counter protoss gateway units, cost more, are not at all effective on defense without major support and are infinitely less competent at taking out mineral lines.
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Hi everyone, please look at this video. Skip to 14:00 to see the important part.
http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/4526152/
Relatively even game with lots of back and forth action. Terran lands 2 emps on clustered protoss army and immediately wins the game.
If you watch the whole game you'll see that terran does a good job of pressuring the protoss so he has no spare gas to spend on warping in more HT once those are hit by emp.
If you let protoss have 5 bases with 6k gas saved up then yeah you're going to be in a rough spot. But suggesting that it is an inevitable situation if the protoss survives past the 15 minute mark is not even close to the truth.
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On December 19 2010 14:08 statikg wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2010 13:59 Chargelot wrote:
TvP feels very difficult to me, a protoss player. Changing from MMM with early Hellion harass to tanks and banshees requires you about 10 seconds of lifting structures (just an example). Anything I throw at you I can expect to be countered within the minute.
As for the Ghost vs. Templar discussions that always come up in TvP discussions, I think mathematically they are about even, and it relies more on the player than the unit. Wow that first statement is just beyond stupid. Second statement...how is this for an example, ghosts v HTs is a micro war so they are roughly equal against each other, lets even say that ghosts are slightly ahead 1v1 just for your sake because . Unfortunately, HTs also hard counter all of bio and softcounter banshees and medivacs, and are available much more easily for defence as well as for offense (I won't even go as far as to say instantly anywhere) and are much more effective at defence AND HTs are also AMAZING at totally wiping out SCV lines. Ghosts perhaps soft counter protoss gateway units, cost more, are not at all effective on defense without major support and are infinitely less competent at taking out mineral lines.
Have you ever fought a Protoss army that doesn't have any shields? Our units don't have infinite health and 6 shields. They're a massive portion of the unit's total damage. They're 33% of a zealot's total damage, 42% of colossi damage, more than half the usefulness of immortals, and (I can already hear you crying over this example) 97% of an Archon's damage.
High Templar are useless without energy. Ghosts sap all energy from it's EMP target.
EMP deals 100 damage instantly to higher tech protoss units.
EMP works against structures, and therefore can render a nexus unable to chronoboost.
Storm deals a crap-ton of damage to bio, and is only more accessible than a ghost because the protoss player warps them in faster, which is what tips the scales to even.
Maybe it's not the unit that is bad, but rather your experiences with it and the way you handled them. (which was my point).
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EPT
