EPT2k terran talking..
TvP – A Terran’s view - Page 33
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Veasel
Sweden159 Posts
2k terran talking.. | ||
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Ikkuh
Netherlands170 Posts
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QuantumTheory
New Zealand188 Posts
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Lurk
Germany359 Posts
On December 30 2010 22:41 QuantumTheory wrote: Arguably the best PvT player in the world just had a grueling series which he took 4 - 3. The recent Gisado event had the worlds best Protoss players all-killed. This isn't lowly 2k Diamond or EU 3k. This is the highest level of play, and at that level it sure doesn't look balanced in favor of either. If anything it looks like T has the edge. That's just from what I've seen. That is totally out of the question. As has been stated several times in this thread already, the overall win ratio can be considered even. Some may say that because of this, the matchup is balanced. Looking closer, however, you can see that almost all terran win are with games <15min and almost all protoss wins are in games that took a lot longer. So the consensus seems to be that terran is favored in the early game and protoss in the late game. Many players (terran and protoss alike) don't find this situation particularly appealing. I think it would greatly benefit the game if both parties in the matchup had similar win chances at all points in the game. This would also result in more macro-oriented play since terran wouldn't try to rush to a win in under 15 minutes. | ||
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QuantumTheory
New Zealand188 Posts
On December 30 2010 22:56 Lurk wrote: That is totally out of the question. As has been stated several times in this thread already, the overall win ratio can be considered even. Some may say that because of this, the matchup is balanced. Looking closer, however, you can see that almost all terran win are with games <15min and almost all protoss wins are in games that took a lot longer. So the consensus seems to be that terran is favored in the early game and protoss in the late game. Many players (terran and protoss alike) don't find this situation particularly appealing. I think it would greatly benefit the game if both parties in the matchup had similar win chances at all points in the game. This would also result in more macro-oriented play since terran wouldn't try to rush to a win in under 15 minutes. I agree, of course. Still, I don't know why this thread is open when both sides have a leg to stand on in the argument of which one is overall the better race. Seems to me we should QQ together on Blizz Forums or something. | ||
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dust7
199 Posts
On December 30 2010 23:40 QuantumTheory wrote: Still, I don't know why this thread is open when both sides have a leg to stand on in the argument of which one is overall the better race. Seems to me we should QQ together on Blizz Forums or something. This is because there are still stubborn and biased players on both sides who refuse to admit that T has superior early and P superior late game. | ||
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Anomandaris
Afghanistan440 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + ogsTOP (T) taking out easily ogsMC (P) 4-0 in a bo7. in the 4th game ogsTOP made storm look bad  | ||
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xbankx
703 Posts
On December 31 2010 02:03 Anomandaris wrote: Spoiler of thh kapersky tournament + Show Spoiler + ogsTOP (T) taking out easily ogsMC (P) 4-0 in a bo7. in the 4th game ogsTOP made storm look bad Yea Top did what terran is supposed to do in the matchup. Expand a lot since you have minerals from mules. Attack in a lot of location at same time to abuse Protoss immobility. Game 4 is an good example of how to play macro terran against storm. Even though storm is good, it takes long to get and before he gets it terran is free to take expo as long as he take in consideration of colossus timing pushes(Top went like 10 vikings every game). He was consistently 30 food ahead of toss at mid/late game. MC played solid games though 3 and 4. His games kind of reminds me of mine when I play protoss. Always behind on bases because you pay so much on teching. Terran tend to lose to toss in long games because they just want to macro and get in big battles. Of course that favors toss when all toss does have is a deathball with aoes. | ||
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Lurk
Germany359 Posts
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xbankx
703 Posts
On December 31 2010 02:36 Lurk wrote: Is there a VOD or replay available for the TOP vs MC games ? RagequitTv will probably post those on their site later. | ||
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IntoTheSnow
Singapore49 Posts
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Antisocialmunky
United States5913 Posts
On December 31 2010 02:09 xbankx wrote: Yea Top did what terran is supposed to do in the matchup. Expand a lot since you have minerals from mules. Attack in a lot of location at same time to abuse Protoss immobility. Game 4 is an good example of how to play macro terran against storm. Even though storm is good, it takes long to get and before he gets it terran is free to take expo as long as he take in consideration of colossus timing pushes(Top went like 10 vikings every game). He was consistently 30 food ahead of toss at mid/late game. MC played solid games though 3 and 4. His games kind of reminds me of mine when I play protoss. Always behind on bases because you pay so much on teching. Terran tend to lose to toss in long games because they just want to macro and get in big battles. Of course that favors toss when all toss does have is a deathball with aoes. This has been in line with my observations. Terran's #1 priority in TvP is getting up his third base. I'm not convinced that the 4th is needed ASAP but Terran cannot function two basing. | ||
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Retgery
Canada1229 Posts
I'm going to say the same to all the Terran players in this thread, we're learning better ways on how to deal with Terran. It's your turn to do the same, figure out a way to deal with Protoss without whining and bitching about imbalances. P.S. Since when are carriers an effective late game unit? | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
On December 31 2010 02:58 Antisocialmunky wrote: This has been in line with my observations. Terran's #1 priority in TvP is getting up his third base. I'm not convinced that the 4th is needed ASAP but Terran cannot function two basing. Top vs MC spoiler: + Show Spoiler + Game 4: TOP made it indeed look ridiculously EASY to take multiple bases, to have the supply-advantage and mass production capabilities ready just when toss gets to the amulet. This aside, the funny thing is, game 4 (the only one where Top allowed MC a lategame and didn't crush him in midgame) never looked toss-favoured at all, even after MC had colossi/templar. Although I'm obviously biased, game 4 looked quite balanced in lategame...TOP just had marauder/ghost/medivac/viking, but constantly attacked at multiple locations and (ab)used the higher HP of marauders compared to marines vs storm-tech. I'm really sorry to say this, but TOP didn't do anything fancy at all. Just 2 different attacking groups who constantly did damage and were reinforced instantly due to TOP having the economical advantage that he gained/took at the time where toss couldn't do anything (insufficient colossi-count and templar tech not done yet.) He was the better player and won very well deserved, but he didn't have to play "significantly" better as if to overcome any sorts of supposed "imbalance". Opposed to the performance of eg. fruitdealer in GSL 1 where it was obvious that he had to play like double as good AND get lucky to overcome certain timings. | ||
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Lurk
Germany359 Posts
On December 31 2010 03:47 sleepingdog wrote: Top vs MC spoiler: + Show Spoiler + Game 4: TOP made it indeed look ridiculously EASY to take multiple bases, to have the supply-advantage and mass production capabilities ready just when toss gets to the amulet. This aside, the funny thing is, game 4 (the only one where Top allowed MC a lategame and didn't crush him in midgame) never looked toss-favoured at all, even after MC had colossi/templar. Although I'm obviously biased, game 4 looked quite balanced in lategame...TOP just had marauder/ghost/medivac/viking, but constantly attacked at multiple locations and (ab)used the higher HP of marauders compared to marines vs storm-tech. I'm really sorry to say this, but TOP didn't do anything fancy at all. Just 2 different attacking groups who constantly did damage and were reinforced instantly due to TOP having the economical advantage that he gained/took at the time where toss couldn't do anything (insufficient colossi-count and templar tech not done yet.) He was the better player and won very well deserved, but he didn't have to play "significantly" better as if to overcome any sorts of supposed "imbalance". Opposed to the performance of eg. fruitdealer in GSL 1 where it was obvious that he had to play like double as good AND get lucky to overcome certain timings. + Show Spoiler + First of all, after watching the games, i was kind of disappointed (i secretly hoped to see some revolutionary way to beat toss lategame  ). oGsTOP just played more or less standard bio all the time (except the one on scrap station). However, his execution and multitasking was near flawless and that eventually won him the games.Also note that in the last game on XC, oGsTOP did NOT win because of how he handled storm. He won because he kept a significant economic advantage throughout the whole game. In every battle after amulet, TOP's bio got crushed to pieces by storm. He simply won because he has insane multitasking and continually dropped MC's expansions to deny his eco. He also did a very good job of constantly trading armies to prevent the toss ball from getting to critical mass. | ||
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metalsonic
Netherlands95 Posts
On December 30 2010 22:22 Ikkuh wrote: in a state of the game podcast incontrol said that once protoss gets the amulet upgrade they have a99% chance to win the game. Nony also said in one of those podcasts that tankplay is easily shutdown by immortalzealotstalker (ht). Ive seen other terrans post which were around 3100 pts saying that once protoss gets ht with amulet they almost always win because carrier+ht is incredibly hard to beat. Another very strong thing is getting immortals as protoss whenyou have +3 attack upgrades because they will 2shot marauders then, so the immortalht zealot combination is almost impossible to beat in lategame (thats what servyoa posted on gamereplays.org Protoss don't have a 99% chance to win with amulet . Simply no , maybe invest some ghosts to instant un avoidable EMP rounds who drain all psi energy and 100 shields ? EMP is much stronger then storm is for the fact that u can only hurt marauders by 20 hp and that terran can stim away while medivacs are healing . Protoss vs Terran in late game is definitely Terran favored if the terran haves bunkers and planetary fortress in his base . U can't win vs that . You can never break a terran bunker defense of 4 + bunkers since that will require the worst late game unit : immortals and stalkers . On Lost Temple Terran is favored heavely . You Simply can not win a late game vs terran ever on that map . Since if u kill his army when he pushes out he haves an army ready at the ramp u can not see and he snipes away all ur HT and ur done for . Lost Temple is one of those maps that favors terran to the point that the map should be removed . In every blizzard game Lost Temple has been the worst and most imbalanced maps of them all . In warcraft 3 Human had allmost an automatic win vs Undead and Orc and this was when the game was just out and with the final balance . The map was ridiculles and Blizzard really sucks with their stupid LT map pools . Why do people on TL says the map is so great ????? TL;DR Terrans are favored late game vs protoss on maps that feature a ramp where they can shoot ur units when u try to break their base . Planetary fortress on the expo may be risky , but it is undefeatable . | ||
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Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
On December 31 2010 04:48 metalsonic wrote: Protoss don't have a 99% chance to win with amulet . Simply no , maybe invest some ghosts to instant un avoidable EMP rounds who drain all psi energy and 100 shields ? EMP is much stronger then storm is for the fact that u can only hurt marauders by 20 hp and that terran can stim away while medivacs are healing . Protoss vs Terran in late game is definitely Terran favored if the terran haves bunkers and planetary fortress in his base . U can't win vs that . You can never break a terran bunker defense of 4 + bunkers since that will require the worst late game unit : immortals and stalkers . On Lost Temple Terran is favored heavely . You Simply can not win a late game vs terran ever on that map . Since if u kill his army when he pushes out he haves an army ready at the ramp u can not see and he snipes away all ur HT and ur done for . Lost Temple is one of those maps that favors terran to the point that the map should be removed . In every blizzard game Lost Temple has been the worst and most imbalanced maps of them all . In warcraft 3 Human had allmost an automatic win vs Undead and Orc and this was when the game was just out and with the final balance . The map was ridiculles and Blizzard really sucks with their stupid LT map pools . Why do people on TL says the map is so great ????? TL;DR Terrans are favored late game vs protoss on maps that feature a ramp where they can shoot ur units when u try to break their base . Planetary fortress on the expo may be risky , but it is undefeatable . You are so wrong on so many levels, damn. 1) "EMP is much stronger then storm is for the fact that u can only hurt marauders by 20 hp and that terran can stim away while medivacs are healing " Are you serious? Marines die to 1 storm. Marauders won't die to a storm, but he will need to kite while zealots with legspeed and stalkers are chasing him. Medivacs can't heal while moving, so they will be sniped out really fast. Storm kills an army, EMP doesnt, it's really that simple. 2) Protoss vs Terran in late game is definitely Terran favored if the terran haves bunkers and planetary fortress in his base .Planetary fortresses are good, yes, but you don't need to fight them. The only thing you need to do is kill the terran and move to his production facilities. You just can't recover when zealots and archons are in your main, really not. A 200/200 terran army WILL lose against a 200/200 protoss army, unless you emp perfectly and unless you are really lucky. So basicly you kill a terran's army, you warp in a new army, you move that new army to your surviving units and you move to his production facilities. He will not be able to recover. You don't need to fight planetary fortresses at all. I am maybe exaggerating, but you are too. Terran undefeatable lategame... I really don't know how you dare to say that... | ||
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xbankx
703 Posts
On December 31 2010 04:47 Lurk wrote: + Show Spoiler + First of all, after watching the games, i was kind of disappointed (i secretly hoped to see some revolutionary way to beat toss lategame ). oGsTOP just played more or less standard bio all the time (except the one on scrap station). However, his execution and multitasking was near flawless and that eventually won him the games.Also note that in the last game on XC, oGsTOP did NOT win because of how he handled storm. He won because he kept a significant economic advantage throughout the whole game. In every battle after amulet, TOP's bio got crushed to pieces by storm. He simply won because he has insane multitasking and continually dropped MC's expansions to deny his eco. He also did a very good job of constantly trading armies to prevent the toss ball from getting to critical mass. Thats how people should be playing terran though. There is no magical sure win method for terran or protoss. Just like there is no magical answer to EMP, there is also no magical answer to storm. Both hurt a lot. Storm is designed to be good versus good low hp units like mm. Top showed that you can easily get a huge econ advantage because toss spend so much on tech(charge, storm, amulet, colo range, and support bay) while stalling the timing attack using drops/runby. Punish toss for being immobile. Im just repeating myself, but yea. Top played great while MC played average so of course top is going to win. | ||
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Svizcy
Slovenia300 Posts
MC stated in one of the games that he was unnable to cast good FF when he needed them. Bassicly what i seen here was TOP playing great macro game but it is questionable however if he would be actually pulling all 4 wins out like he did if they wouldnt be playing in lagg? We all know that FF-ing in correct time is much harder to do on lagg than to stim in the right moment. good day, svizcy | ||
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xbankx
703 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Both games, praerikytan used many emps that just basically locked out most of the storms(even emping warping temp) and destroyed white-ra's zealot, immortal, and temp | ||
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