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On December 15 2010 19:45 Dommk wrote:
Tyler was right on the state of the game that people complain too much about balance than trying to improve themselves.
This is definitely right regarding the TvP lategame...also due to another major problem. Many TvPs enter lategame with P having "somewhat" an advantage, or at the very least not being very far behind. Why? Because P can NOT kill T that easily in mid-game as T can kill P. Especially if the terran has already managed to establish a PF, then the game will almost inevitably go into lategame because I just can't go and frickin kill off the other player. Notice that this is SUPPOSED to be that way, no balance-QQ here.
On the other hand, once T gets an advantage in midgame they just roflstomp all over my natural or even my main. Just a handful of marauders can snipe critical pylons in seconds, just 1-2 surviving banshees can severely decimate my mineral line. Compare this to 1-2 surviving phoenixes or a handful of stalkers....they do almost nothing to a properly constructed T-base. Therefore, once T manages to overwhelm the P in midgame, the game often ends, right there, right now. We could discuss if THIS is balanced, but I really don't want to here. All I wanna say is, that in many cases, where TvP "does" go in favor of the Terran earlier on, it doesn't even enter the lategame. Therefore, we don't see a terran using his mid-game advantage to win the game in the long run that often. If P, however, outplays T in midgame, the game WILL very often enter lategame and end with storms crippling T painfully. Notice that you can NOT argue balance out of those games, there's nothing imbalanced at all if a P uses his midgame advantage to overwhelm T in lategame.
You really need to carefully look for games, that enter the lategame on EVEN footing. And - now it gets tricky - since T has the advantage of MMM being > gateway units early on, "even footing" doesn't necessarily mean "equal bases". If P, for example, quickly techs to templars, then "even footing" would at least require T to be one base ahead. Like in BW, where it was considered to be perfectly normal for P to be ahead in bases, until T establishs its dominant tank position.
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On December 15 2010 19:25 gently-cz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 15:57 Tastinggood wrote:On December 15 2010 10:37 donkkk wrote:
just saw game qxc vs minigun
lategame ghost,bc, marauder, banshee thor, vikings got completly stomped by toss death ball wasnt even close, everything evaporated despite of emp which hit every fucking ht, this matchup makes me sad
this sounds like a lot of bull****. And it is no counterargument to anything untill you post a replay. here you go http://www.root-gaming.com/replay/qxc-vs-mini-lost-templeit's not really BS. Qxc was all around the map. If you compare the micro needed for him and the toss player and the effeciency of the units it really makes you sad. But I think there were some tactical mistakes by qxc. He should have switched to banshee/BC and some vikings for observer hunting and proceed as he did. Scan, kill obs, make the enemy scream, retreat. He had room to transition after his massive drop play. Imho he should have traded his army exactly this way (drop play) and rebuild into more late tech units as he did agains kiwikaki. Btw this game showed that ghost is not sufficient as a counter to templar, due to the warp in, even if you emp and emp the warping templars he just warps more of them and you don't have enough ghost with you. And of course he can morph to archon right away, like seriously, this should be made it at least 5 energy so we don't get this kind of non-sense. Use emp and use 3 more? Disclaimer: I don't have problem with Toss and while in this situation it's kind of strong, else I find them ok.
So I call it BS when some dude says
"just saw game qxc vs minigun
lategame ghost,bc, marauder, banshee thor, vikings got completly stomped by toss death ball wasnt even close, everything evaporated despite of emp which hit every fucking ht"
and then you link me a game where qxc didnt make a single bc,banshee or thor.
This game didnt show at all that ghost is not a sufficient counter to templars. The first battle at ~38:30 was MMM with some ghosts and some vikings vs mothership stalkers sentries chargelots hts 1 immortal and an archon.
7 out of 8 ht's were emped and qxc won the fight with a 40 food lead because of it.
The second fight at ~40:30 was MMM with 2 ghosts vs 5 ht's 2 carriers many chargelots.
qxc emped the first 2 ht's, he missed his emp on the other 3 by a hair and he lost the fight.
The 3rd fight at ~44 was just really bad positioning by qxc.
It was MMM with 9 ghosts and 16 vikings vs chargelots 7 carriers 9 hts and a mothership and 2 colossus.
Qxc was attacked from a bad angle and his army was split up.
Out of 9 hts only 2 storms hit the vikings. Qxc totally messed up his vikings by letting them stay in the storms and hitting interceptors and not the carriers/collossus.
In the end it was still ghost/MMM/vikings vs a critical amount of carriers/phoenix/mothership.
This match really wasnt decided by hts.
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+ Show Spoiler +On December 15 2010 22:38 Tastinggood wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 19:25 gently-cz wrote:On December 15 2010 15:57 Tastinggood wrote:On December 15 2010 10:37 donkkk wrote:
just saw game qxc vs minigun
lategame ghost,bc, marauder, banshee thor, vikings got completly stomped by toss death ball wasnt even close, everything evaporated despite of emp which hit every fucking ht, this matchup makes me sad
this sounds like a lot of bull****. And it is no counterargument to anything untill you post a replay. here you go http://www.root-gaming.com/replay/qxc-vs-mini-lost-templeit's not really BS. Qxc was all around the map. If you compare the micro needed for him and the toss player and the effeciency of the units it really makes you sad. But I think there were some tactical mistakes by qxc. He should have switched to banshee/BC and some vikings for observer hunting and proceed as he did. Scan, kill obs, make the enemy scream, retreat. He had room to transition after his massive drop play. Imho he should have traded his army exactly this way (drop play) and rebuild into more late tech units as he did agains kiwikaki. Btw this game showed that ghost is not sufficient as a counter to templar, due to the warp in, even if you emp and emp the warping templars he just warps more of them and you don't have enough ghost with you. And of course he can morph to archon right away, like seriously, this should be made it at least 5 energy so we don't get this kind of non-sense. Use emp and use 3 more? Disclaimer: I don't have problem with Toss and while in this situation it's kind of strong, else I find them ok. So I call it BS when some dude says "just saw game qxc vs minigun lategame ghost,bc, marauder, banshee thor, vikings got completly stomped by toss death ball wasnt even close, everything evaporated despite of emp which hit every fucking ht" and then you link me a game where qxc didnt make a single bc,banshee or thor. This game didnt show at all that ghost is not a sufficient counter to templars. The first battle at ~38:30 was MMM with some ghosts and some vikings vs mothership stalkers sentries chargelots hts 1 immortal and an archon. 7 out of 8 ht's were emped and qxc won the fight with a 40 food lead because of it. The second fight at ~40:30 was MMM with 2 ghosts vs 5 ht's 2 carriers many chargelots. qxc emped the first 2 ht's, he missed his emp on the other 3 by a hair and he lost the fight. The 3rd fight at ~44 was just really bad positioning by qxc. It was MMM with 9 ghosts and 16 vikings vs chargelots 7 carriers 9 hts and a mothership and 2 colossus. Qxc was attacked from a bad angle and his army was split up. Out of 9 hts only 2 storms hit the vikings. Qxc totally messed up his vikings by letting them stay in the storms and hitting interceptors and not the carriers/collossus. In the end it was still ghost/MMM/vikings vs a critical amount of carriers/phoenix/mothership. This match really wasnt decided by hts.
he linked different game, i gave my own link check it maybe vods are out yet
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On December 15 2010 23:06 donkkk wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 15 2010 22:38 Tastinggood wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 19:25 gently-cz wrote:On December 15 2010 15:57 Tastinggood wrote:On December 15 2010 10:37 donkkk wrote:
just saw game qxc vs minigun
lategame ghost,bc, marauder, banshee thor, vikings got completly stomped by toss death ball wasnt even close, everything evaporated despite of emp which hit every fucking ht, this matchup makes me sad
this sounds like a lot of bull****. And it is no counterargument to anything untill you post a replay. here you go http://www.root-gaming.com/replay/qxc-vs-mini-lost-templeit's not really BS. Qxc was all around the map. If you compare the micro needed for him and the toss player and the effeciency of the units it really makes you sad. But I think there were some tactical mistakes by qxc. He should have switched to banshee/BC and some vikings for observer hunting and proceed as he did. Scan, kill obs, make the enemy scream, retreat. He had room to transition after his massive drop play. Imho he should have traded his army exactly this way (drop play) and rebuild into more late tech units as he did agains kiwikaki. Btw this game showed that ghost is not sufficient as a counter to templar, due to the warp in, even if you emp and emp the warping templars he just warps more of them and you don't have enough ghost with you. And of course he can morph to archon right away, like seriously, this should be made it at least 5 energy so we don't get this kind of non-sense. Use emp and use 3 more? Disclaimer: I don't have problem with Toss and while in this situation it's kind of strong, else I find them ok. So I call it BS when some dude says "just saw game qxc vs minigun lategame ghost,bc, marauder, banshee thor, vikings got completly stomped by toss death ball wasnt even close, everything evaporated despite of emp which hit every fucking ht" and then you link me a game where qxc didnt make a single bc,banshee or thor. This game didnt show at all that ghost is not a sufficient counter to templars. The first battle at ~38:30 was MMM with some ghosts and some vikings vs mothership stalkers sentries chargelots hts 1 immortal and an archon. 7 out of 8 ht's were emped and qxc won the fight with a 40 food lead because of it. The second fight at ~40:30 was MMM with 2 ghosts vs 5 ht's 2 carriers many chargelots. qxc emped the first 2 ht's, he missed his emp on the other 3 by a hair and he lost the fight. The 3rd fight at ~44 was just really bad positioning by qxc. It was MMM with 9 ghosts and 16 vikings vs chargelots 7 carriers 9 hts and a mothership and 2 colossus. Qxc was attacked from a bad angle and his army was split up. Out of 9 hts only 2 storms hit the vikings. Qxc totally messed up his vikings by letting them stay in the storms and hitting interceptors and not the carriers/collossus. In the end it was still ghost/MMM/vikings vs a critical amount of carriers/phoenix/mothership. This match really wasnt decided by hts. he linked different game, i gave my own link check it maybe vods are out yet
i watched this one aswell
http://www.root-gaming.com/replay/qxc-vs-mini-jungle-basin
qxc won despite ht's
anyway i trust jinro on this
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2300 Diamond T and P.
I really think that P is the favorite every minute the game goes longer. Terran definitely has the stronger early to mid game and up until P's 3rd or 4th base goes down, I feel the MU is Terran's to dictate. Once 3 bases are up and you reach the Supply cap, the Protoss mechanics make it stronger. Warp in means ACTUAL 300 food armies and Templar cost all of 2 food to kill 10 food of Marines or 6 food of Marauders, even, for much less than the cost per.
For me, I try to go into the serious midlegame with an earlier 3rd and an insanely fast 4th and then slow push Tanks and MM+Ravens+Vikings while getting all the remaining upgrades simultaneously and doubling up Factory and Rax numbers for faster re-macro.
With Amulet and HT, T needs to have a clear economic advantage or concede once P gets to 3 bases. Right now there is not a cost effective way to push into HT+Amulet with any T composition, so it becomes a war of attrition and all about how fast T can safely break into a P expo.
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+ Show Spoiler +On December 15 2010 23:27 Sleight wrote:
2300 Diamond T and P.
I really think that P is the favorite every minute the game goes longer. Terran definitely has the stronger early to mid game and up until P's 3rd or 4th base goes down, I feel the MU is Terran's to dictate. Once 3 bases are up and you reach the Supply cap, the Protoss mechanics make it stronger. Warp in means ACTUAL 300 food armies and Templar cost all of 2 food to kill 10 food of Marines or 6 food of Marauders, even, for much less than the cost per.
For me, I try to go into the serious midlegame with an earlier 3rd and an insanely fast 4th and then slow push Tanks and MM+Ravens+Vikings while getting all the remaining upgrades simultaneously and doubling up Factory and Rax numbers for faster re-macro.
With Amulet and HT, T needs to have a clear economic advantage or concede once P gets to 3 bases. Right now there is not a cost effective way to push into HT+Amulet with any T composition, so it becomes a war of attrition and all about how fast T can safely break into a P expo.
you talk like you are stating facts while its just your opinion
and lmao at 300 food armies
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One thing I have noticed with late game Terran V Protoss that may or may not be an game balance issue but certainly favors Protoss. Day 9 termed it the 300 food army. Lets say a 200 food Terran engages with a 200 Protoss. Mid battle both sides are taking heavy damage. Now that food is not capped for both Terran and Protoss they can once again reproduce armies. Because warp gates are instant access to reinforcement, unlike the regular build mechanic, a 200 food army can be replenished in no time with enough warp gates. Instantly having another 200 army with banked minerals and gas is not necessarily a Protoss imbalance because with larva injects Zerg can also destroy a Terran easily with a fully replenished army because of the 300 food army effect.
I'm gonna get screamed at for being a newb but the the thing I noticed is that if you forget to macro as a Terran during a battle, which as many Terrans will tell you micro in a battle is the only way to actually stand up to the sheer strength of the Protoss or the numbers of the Zerg, you cant instantly have another comparable sized army. Protoss if you forget to macro no worries you can at least have 8-15 guys instantly at anywhere there is a pylon.
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On December 16 2010 00:07 Beastman wrote:
I'm gonna get screamed at for being a newb but the the thing I noticed is that if you forget to macro as a Terran during a battle, which as many Terrans will tell you micro in a battle is the only way to actually stand up to the sheer strength of the Protoss or the numbers of the Zerg, you cant instantly have another comparable sized army. Protoss if you forget to macro no worries you can at least have 8-15 guys instantly at anywhere there is a pylon.
Battles don't last long in SC2 compared to BW, it's a big "boom" of everything and then it's suddenly over - so this isn't that big of a deal, you just have to macro exactly until the beginning of the battle. If you have enough ressources left over, I don't see why you wouldn't want to queue units in advance, so they start producing right away when the units start dying.
The 300 supply what you mentioned is indeed something very significant. Nevertheless this is something unique about protoss "as a whole" and really hasn't much to do with techs (mainly here ppl complain about storm). If you want to get rid of this P-advantage, you have to get rid of warpgate technology.
Although I think a very justified nerf to insta-templar-warp could be to increase the time-span the templar needs to warp. Right now, each and every unit warps in in 5 seconds (game time). This doesn't necessarily have to be this way. You could easily nerf P-lategame by increasing the HT-warp-in to 10 or 15 seconds so that you couldn't have the reinforcements available instantly. This would be an indirect nerf to amulet without actually taking away the ability of freshly built templars to storm.
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On December 15 2010 23:12 Tastinggood wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 23:06 donkkk wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 15 2010 22:38 Tastinggood wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 19:25 gently-cz wrote:On December 15 2010 15:57 Tastinggood wrote:On December 15 2010 10:37 donkkk wrote:
just saw game qxc vs minigun
lategame ghost,bc, marauder, banshee thor, vikings got completly stomped by toss death ball wasnt even close, everything evaporated despite of emp which hit every fucking ht, this matchup makes me sad
this sounds like a lot of bull****. And it is no counterargument to anything untill you post a replay. here you go http://www.root-gaming.com/replay/qxc-vs-mini-lost-templeit's not really BS. Qxc was all around the map. If you compare the micro needed for him and the toss player and the effeciency of the units it really makes you sad. But I think there were some tactical mistakes by qxc. He should have switched to banshee/BC and some vikings for observer hunting and proceed as he did. Scan, kill obs, make the enemy scream, retreat. He had room to transition after his massive drop play. Imho he should have traded his army exactly this way (drop play) and rebuild into more late tech units as he did agains kiwikaki. Btw this game showed that ghost is not sufficient as a counter to templar, due to the warp in, even if you emp and emp the warping templars he just warps more of them and you don't have enough ghost with you. And of course he can morph to archon right away, like seriously, this should be made it at least 5 energy so we don't get this kind of non-sense. Use emp and use 3 more? Disclaimer: I don't have problem with Toss and while in this situation it's kind of strong, else I find them ok. So I call it BS when some dude says "just saw game qxc vs minigun lategame ghost,bc, marauder, banshee thor, vikings got completly stomped by toss death ball wasnt even close, everything evaporated despite of emp which hit every fucking ht" and then you link me a game where qxc didnt make a single bc,banshee or thor. This game didnt show at all that ghost is not a sufficient counter to templars. The first battle at ~38:30 was MMM with some ghosts and some vikings vs mothership stalkers sentries chargelots hts 1 immortal and an archon. 7 out of 8 ht's were emped and qxc won the fight with a 40 food lead because of it. The second fight at ~40:30 was MMM with 2 ghosts vs 5 ht's 2 carriers many chargelots. qxc emped the first 2 ht's, he missed his emp on the other 3 by a hair and he lost the fight. The 3rd fight at ~44 was just really bad positioning by qxc. It was MMM with 9 ghosts and 16 vikings vs chargelots 7 carriers 9 hts and a mothership and 2 colossus. Qxc was attacked from a bad angle and his army was split up. Out of 9 hts only 2 storms hit the vikings. Qxc totally messed up his vikings by letting them stay in the storms and hitting interceptors and not the carriers/collossus. In the end it was still ghost/MMM/vikings vs a critical amount of carriers/phoenix/mothership. This match really wasnt decided by hts. he linked different game, i gave my own link check it maybe vods are out yet i watched this one aswell http://www.root-gaming.com/replay/qxc-vs-mini-jungle-basinqxc won despite ht's anyway i trust jinro on this
sry I gave the wrong rep, but anyway what I said stands true and your analysis is a bit of coz it starts at 38 minutes, else it's pretty accurate and I agree with you as I already wrote. I mean all the droping action before even with ghosts in the medivacs was not enought to stop the templars effectively. ergo ghost is not a counter to templar, it helps but you cant really relly on them. You need higher tech Banshee/BC to make him use his feedback, so he has to move a bit more forward. Then the ghost = HT, else he has the advantage of hitting you with storm safely from behind and you have to move forward to EMP.
In the lost temple game against mini he should have switched to higher tech way sooner/banshee/bc as he proved in the other games.Do the drops but replace the supply with higher tech. Im terran as well btw.
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On December 14 2010 00:16 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2010 00:04 weiliem wrote:
Does Mech actually work in TvP? perhaps like in SCBW, tanks helions?? It seems quite logical theoretically, with the same concept as SCBW, tanks>stalkers while helions>zeals, while tanks>colosus too. But T now has no mines. so perhaps the biggest problem of mech is that the mobility is even worse than in SCBW due to not having mines to control the map. And maybe Voids is a really big problem to this mech style. Is 80 damage storm really significant to mech? HTs doesnt seem to be effective against mech, so amulet upgrade wouldn't be much of a problem then?? Im not sure about all my points. All i know is that i dint have much success with mech build in TvP, so i think perhaps its my controls which are bad. What do u all think??
But overall is it workable using map in TvP?? Not really because: - Many maps dont allow it - No good detection options - No good early anti-air options - Too fucking slow and vulnerable to counters on most maps - Carriers. Playing mech TvP seems to end up with either a really long game where you die to carriers or void rays, or a really short game where you try to attack before you are maxed or whatever and die, or get countered or something. If protoss doesnt build carriers or void rays, yeah 200/200 in siege tank, hellion, ghost is gonna decimate anything. I think mech isnt viable as a primary play style at the moment.
Just out of curiosity it seems to me that that the 1/1/1 opening is best when going mech also being gas starved most of the time it hurts alot less to waste a scan. Or you can continue to mule and use some the extra resources you gained to building a proxy rax to scout. (this is my perference) Thus if you see a stargate then you have the ability to pump out vikings you have a raven vs dt or the option of saving for scan due to higher gas count. Against standard protoss it seems a 2 gate robo is most seen as you are able to get a observer out. If the protoss haphazardly throughs down a stargate to make voidrays they won't be able to produce out of both the robotics facility and the stargate. Granted at this point your natrual should be getting close to done. On the same token so should the terrans as it has already been mentioned are gas limited by this so even if they dont throw it up directly at the natural they can at least start building it. After the natural comes online you should be able to afford decent anti air if you scout the tech out.
The main problem imo comes after that. If you are on a map where a third is hard to obtain with a slow army than the toss will be able to get alot more air than you know how to deal with. If you can't take your third easy your goal will revolve alot more on harrasment to make sure the toss isn't able to take full advantage of his expos.
On December 14 2010 03:25 donkkk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2010 03:23 Offhand wrote: On December 14 2010 03:21 donkkk wrote:On December 14 2010 03:15 Offhand wrote:
Tanks are viable in TvP, no matter how much you whine the core fact unit isn't useless and forces a response from the protoss player in some way.
See: Mana v Naama DH finals. Nony would disagree with you Replays would be nice. read his post history hes anti fan of tank build and criticized MaNas DH play, he says that chargelots +colo eat this alive
Naama seems to realize too how much weaker tank play is on far walk distance maps. You noticed during DH that he switched up from almost pure mech + bunkers to lots of infantry + tanks. The main difference between the 2 is is the tank to infantry ratio. If zealot + colo is the composition giving him the most trouble take away from one of the raxes producing infantry to add another factory producing hellions. Hellions are the one mech unit that is very mobile. So it could reinforce just as quickly as other infantry units could it is more resistant to storm and colo than marines. Lastly even if they get raped by the colo in the quote they have raped more than than enough zealots to even the playing field vs the rest of the tanks and infantry.
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OP here. For me the topic can be closed. Conclusion in my opinion:
anything else then bio doesn't work that well against protoss. It's logical that tier 3 protoss counters this. A sollution would be a mechbuff and / or a battlecruiser buff. Ofcourse we shouldn't forget about TvZ too.
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I thought most people were wrong this time, but I just watched a bw game today (flash x afrotoss) and man, it does felt like every single unit WAS balanced, carriers were strong, but goliaths and turrets could defend, it felt that the better player (i wont spoiler) would win and that happened.
On current sc2's tvp it feels that unless T has advantage it will show a countdown that when reached T auto loses ...
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+ Show Spoiler +On December 15 2010 22:38 Tastinggood wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 19:25 gently-cz wrote:On December 15 2010 15:57 Tastinggood wrote:On December 15 2010 10:37 donkkk wrote:
just saw game qxc vs minigun
lategame ghost,bc, marauder, banshee thor, vikings got completly stomped by toss death ball wasnt even close, everything evaporated despite of emp which hit every fucking ht, this matchup makes me sad
this sounds like a lot of bull****. And it is no counterargument to anything untill you post a replay. here you go http://www.root-gaming.com/replay/qxc-vs-mini-lost-templeit's not really BS. Qxc was all around the map. If you compare the micro needed for him and the toss player and the effeciency of the units it really makes you sad. But I think there were some tactical mistakes by qxc. He should have switched to banshee/BC and some vikings for observer hunting and proceed as he did. Scan, kill obs, make the enemy scream, retreat. He had room to transition after his massive drop play. Imho he should have traded his army exactly this way (drop play) and rebuild into more late tech units as he did agains kiwikaki. Btw this game showed that ghost is not sufficient as a counter to templar, due to the warp in, even if you emp and emp the warping templars he just warps more of them and you don't have enough ghost with you. And of course he can morph to archon right away, like seriously, this should be made it at least 5 energy so we don't get this kind of non-sense. Use emp and use 3 more? Disclaimer: I don't have problem with Toss and while in this situation it's kind of strong, else I find them ok. So I call it BS when some dude says "just saw game qxc vs minigun lategame ghost,bc, marauder, banshee thor, vikings got completly stomped by toss death ball wasnt even close, everything evaporated despite of emp which hit every fucking ht" and then you link me a game where qxc didnt make a single bc,banshee or thor. This game didnt show at all that ghost is not a sufficient counter to templars. The first battle at ~38:30 was MMM with some ghosts and some vikings vs mothership stalkers sentries chargelots hts 1 immortal and an archon. 7 out of 8 ht's were emped and qxc won the fight with a 40 food lead because of it. The second fight at ~40:30 was MMM with 2 ghosts vs 5 ht's 2 carriers many chargelots. qxc emped the first 2 ht's, he missed his emp on the other 3 by a hair and he lost the fight. The 3rd fight at ~44 was just really bad positioning by qxc. It was MMM with 9 ghosts and 16 vikings vs chargelots 7 carriers 9 hts and a mothership and 2 colossus. Qxc was attacked from a bad angle and his army was split up. Out of 9 hts only 2 storms hit the vikings. Qxc totally messed up his vikings by letting them stay in the storms and hitting interceptors and not the carriers/collossus. In the end it was still ghost/MMM/vikings vs a critical amount of carriers/phoenix/mothership. This match really wasnt decided by hts.
new games (from todays tour)
split map, both maxed bratok goes bc,tank, thor, ghost vikings and once again final battle looks like a total joke,
http://xmas.homerj.de/en/cup/9/replay/466/
http://xmas.homerj.de/en/cup/9/replay/465/
tell me what terran unit combination counters that, no surprise that almost every terran goes 1 base all in or fast 2base timing attack.
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On December 16 2010 06:26 Dente wrote:
OP here. For me the topic can be closed. Conclusion in my opinion:
anything else then bio doesn't work that well against protoss. It's logical that tier 3 protoss counters this. A sollution would be a mechbuff and / or a battlecruiser buff. Ofcourse we shouldn't forget about TvZ too.
For me this game shows, that TvP is still way, WAY underdeveloped in lategame:
http://www.root-gaming.com/replay/qxc-vs-kiwikaki-shakuras-plateau
Until now it is one of the following:
a) Terran timing pushs, either T wins or P defends and has advantage
b) P goes quick colossi, T counters with vikings, P either loses or transitions into templars: T still goes mass-bio and sometimes wins, most times loses
c) P goes quick templar, T goes mass-bio and either wins quickly with a push or nearly always loses in the long run
d) T goes pure mech and nearly always loses
I'm not saying what qxc does is the new state of the art TvP lategame. I'm saying, please, LOOK at what he does against an extraordinary toss player - why not try to implement stuff he does and made working in lategame?
Banshees force phoenixes, so why not follow it up with some thors instead of just mass MM?
BCs force void rays and/or blink stalkers which cuts painfully in the mass-chargelot/HT combo, every toss strives for....simply because toss then has to implement some anti-air.
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Why do banshees force phoenix? HT can simply feedback them...and ghosts...and medivacs....and ravens...then 1 storm on bioball = gg I honestly don't see the point in getting col's in TvP just mass warp gates and HT's...amulet and gg.
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On December 16 2010 07:53 Baffels wrote:
Why do banshees force phoenix? HT can simply feedback them...and ghosts...and medivacs....and ravens...then 1 storm on bioball = gg I honestly don't see the point in getting col's in TvP just mass warp gates and HT's...amulet and gg.
to some degree you are right, but we just have to try new variations. From what I learned, if the toss doesn't counter your banshee with phoenix, then the banshees with observer snipe and or pdd will crush their robo army and without detection even their HT army can't do really that much. Storms are quite easy to dodge/get out and you can repair afterwards.
Air gives you more dps as well as you have more fight power in choke areas. There is a reason why top toss counter banshees with phoenix play. And thor counters that and also counters force fields, but they die to immortals. And they are countered by guess what, marine, which die to collosi and or templar, which die to banshee and emp. The way I look at it it seems balanced from the unit role kind of view.
Now it's our terrans time to l2p and get to those units and abuse the hell of them. Maybe they are weak, but maybe they just seem so.
TvZ with reapers was OP, it seemed so, but zergs found a way around with roaches and other stuff and we have seen some brilliant micro from both players there. It was OP in the beginning as all new things are, but not in the end (in 1on1, there was a patch due to OP in 2v2 and more).
I think the game betweend qxc and kiwikaki is the way to go for terran. U force them to use templar to feedback your BC-> easier emp for you. Now I have a feeling that terrans have the option to late game, but they have to hold the collosi/templar push from toss to get there. Delay it as much as possible, as the zerg players do, take expos with the minerals overflow and spam those hight tech units to force not so deadly unit combination. Trade your bio army from mid game in drop fights while switching to higher tech units. This way, if the big fight comes it should be even. And if you have the right high tech compossition, you are both even and he runs you over like a godzilla, cry OP, uninstall the game and scream FU blizzard all over bnet forums and play SC1, till they patch this to a state, it's actually playable. But only then
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On December 16 2010 07:42 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2010 06:26 Dente wrote:
OP here. For me the topic can be closed. Conclusion in my opinion:
anything else then bio doesn't work that well against protoss. It's logical that tier 3 protoss counters this. A sollution would be a mechbuff and / or a battlecruiser buff. Ofcourse we shouldn't forget about TvZ too. For me this game shows, that TvP is still way, WAY underdeveloped in lategame: http://www.root-gaming.com/replay/qxc-vs-kiwikaki-shakuras-plateauUntil now it is one of the following: a) Terran timing pushs, either T wins or P defends and has advantage b) P goes quick colossi, T counters with vikings, P either loses or transitions into templars: T still goes mass-bio and sometimes wins, most times loses c) P goes quick templar, T goes mass-bio and either wins quickly with a push or nearly always loses in the long run d) T goes pure mech and nearly always loses I'm not saying what qxc does is the new state of the art TvP lategame. I'm saying, please, LOOK at what he does against an extraordinary toss player - why not try to implement stuff he does and made working in lategame? Banshees force phoenixes, so why not follow it up with some thors instead of just mass MM? BCs force void rays and/or blink stalkers which cuts painfully in the mass-chargelot/HT combo, every toss strives for....simply because toss then has to implement some anti-air.
no offence but kiwi didnt make a single colo in that game which made marines actually a viable unit, watch bratok vs nightend ( i gave links in post above) nightend had better unit combination and everything just melted including bc's
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I also feel early game TvP is not as bad as people think.
Terran really doesnt have that much of an advantage. On maps where force field can easily split the terran army and zealots are being put in front. it is an uphill battle.
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On December 16 2010 07:42 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2010 06:26 Dente wrote:
OP here. For me the topic can be closed. Conclusion in my opinion:
anything else then bio doesn't work that well against protoss. It's logical that tier 3 protoss counters this. A sollution would be a mechbuff and / or a battlecruiser buff. Ofcourse we shouldn't forget about TvZ too. For me this game shows, that TvP is still way, WAY underdeveloped in lategame: http://www.root-gaming.com/replay/qxc-vs-kiwikaki-shakuras-plateauUntil now it is one of the following: a) Terran timing pushs, either T wins or P defends and has advantage b) P goes quick colossi, T counters with vikings, P either loses or transitions into templars: T still goes mass-bio and sometimes wins, most times loses c) P goes quick templar, T goes mass-bio and either wins quickly with a push or nearly always loses in the long run d) T goes pure mech and nearly always loses I'm not saying what qxc does is the new state of the art TvP lategame. I'm saying, please, LOOK at what he does against an extraordinary toss player - why not try to implement stuff he does and made working in lategame? Banshees force phoenixes, so why not follow it up with some thors instead of just mass MM? BCs force void rays and/or blink stalkers which cuts painfully in the mass-chargelot/HT combo, every toss strives for....simply because toss then has to implement some anti-air.
So what you're saying is that for a protoss to "win" they are outplaying the Terran (In your earlier posts)?
This I do not agree with at all.
I just think the match-up right now is still maturing -- the game hasn't been out long enough for everything to settle yet. It'll constantly change and there will be ways for T's to beat P's and P's to beat T's.
Just like the FotM build which consists of chargelots (a huge ball) with mass HT's.
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Ok now I watched the 2 games of brat_ok vs nightend. In the 1st one, he is way too much heavy on vikings, if half of them were banshees, he could have done much more damage after the 1st big battle, from this on it was an uphill fight.
In the second game, while having the tech units, his micro was suffering from 1ctrl group syndrom and not targeting with the thors, bad position of the BC, no yamato to snipe the collosi and no ghosts to EMP the HT's. Imho he deserved to die in this one game. I ain't saying, he can't play or such, but as many stated we don't have really that much experience with this kind of fights and they happen quite rarely due to all-ins, timing pushes etc and it's hard to say if it's viable or not.
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EPT
