|
On December 14 2010 02:45 ledarsi wrote:
The root of the problem with terran is that bio is very strong, and there's nothing as strong to transition into. Mech is just abysmal against anything in the air, and it's not really feasible to mass air units. The Thor is the only factory unit that even has any anti air whatsoever, and it deals only 16 dps against what it is best against. And only 8 dps against armored air, before armor reduction on its four projectiles. The thor's anti air is garbage- literally one stimmed marine is more effective, and it costs 300/200/6. As a result a mech build will, if it doesn't get beaten on the ground, get henpecked to death by just a couple air units.
There's just nothing else to build right now as your main army apart from tons of infantry, which colossi and psi storm just wreck. Infantry are so strong, however, and they overshadow terran's other main battle unit options so drastically, that even if your opponent is fielding hardcore mass colossi or baneling or high templar, we must keep making that bio. We have no other choice.
The common thread is that terran players do not feel competitive fielding their own high tech units against other sides' high tech units. I think it is telling that we see a lot of teching in TvT, with tank+viking, banshees, thors, ravens, and sometimes battlecrusiers. Obviously these units are competitive in a mirror matchup, but we see endless bio in TvZ and TvP.
Uhm it starts out at 14 dmg and its 14x4 not just 14. Thats 56 dmg vs light air and AoE. Thats pretty damn good. Thors ground attack is perfect at mopping gate way units as well.
Heres the problem tho with T late game.
P has infinite anwsers to any mechanical play from the T.
Blink Stalks/Charge Lots/Immortals/Phoenix/Void Rays(PTR 20% vs Massive now)
All of which, with chronoboost can be quickly churned out for a very effective counter
So what does that leave you with?
You have your Bio of course or your starport. Both of which we see heavy usage in the current TvP
The Starport units are support units however, You cant just mass banshee raven viking and expect a TvP revolution. HT w feedback/storm will laugh at this. Battle Cruisers... well no.
So what do we get?? We get Bio with starport support. Theres only 2 viable tech trees in this MU making it very easy for Toss to counter both. At the same time you also must factor in the advantae of late game warp gates. A toss on 3 base can support about 12-15 of these and with chronoboost he will always rebuild his army faster than you.
Let me summarize my post
Terran Tech Tree---------> only 2 viable options of 3 making protoss have a predictable easy counterable game(Once it gets late game)
Terran Late Game production-------------> Can not match P's warp gate/chronoboost production.
|
On December 13 2010 22:40 Arcanefrost wrote:Im a toss player and I think pvt is pretty balanced. The problem is terrans all in too much and don't practice macro games enough imo. Players like Jinro prove that terran is perfectly fine late game in any matchup, but it takes practice. Jinro has been practicing macro for months, trying to be a reactionary player with good lategame and I think it's safe to say he succeeded. On the other hand players like rain will obviously not beat the likes of tester in a macro game. I think boxers 1rax fe build is pretty good. I would recommend watching some korean pvt from the gomtv allstar tournament, observe their build orders and find one that suits your style: http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=event&id=382
terrans often all in hard 1 base because late game PvT is so difficult.. thats why you rarely see them unless its between 2 very similarly skilled players
also, i support post above me 
|
On December 14 2010 02:37 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2010 01:42 Smackzilla wrote:
I'm probably wrong, but it seems like early ghosts would solve a whole lot of the problems I've seen in TvP replays, lately. Personally, I find a ghost or two handy vs. any composition. I still need vikings vs. collosus but even then is does massive DPS to shields and helps keep me from getting raped by FFs. I also believe in walling in vs toss - call me crazy.
I agree, and its something Ive been experimenting with the last couple of days. - Mobile detection? Check. - Good vs aggression? Well it depletes sentries mana..... - Good vs passive play? Well, it depletes sentries mana.....
Jinro,
How do your fellow OGS team mates feel about TvP? If you can communicate with them that is. Just curious on how they view the TvP late game.
PS. ( you made me lose so much god damn sleep becuase you kept winning at the gsl!)
|
I've always been curious if Vikings will make their way into the TvP metagame. They actually fare well against gateway units, but I rarely see them used in ground mode (it's as if just because they can fly, everyone only wants touse them in flight mode). Could a mech army consisting of hellions, vikings, tanks, and some marauder support work?
|
Tanks are viable in TvP, no matter how much you whine the core fact unit isn't useless and forces a response from the protoss player in some way.
See: Mana v Naama DH finals.
|
On December 14 2010 03:15 Offhand wrote:
Tanks are viable in TvP, no matter how much you whine the core fact unit isn't useless and forces a response from the protoss player in some way.
See: Mana v Naama DH finals.
Nony would disagree with you
|
On December 14 2010 03:21 donkkk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2010 03:15 Offhand wrote:
Tanks are viable in TvP, no matter how much you whine the core fact unit isn't useless and forces a response from the protoss player in some way.
See: Mana v Naama DH finals. Nony would disagree with you
Replays would be nice.
|
On December 14 2010 03:12 XXXSmOke wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2010 02:45 ledarsi wrote:
The root of the problem with terran is that bio is very strong, and there's nothing as strong to transition into. Mech is just abysmal against anything in the air, and it's not really feasible to mass air units. The Thor is the only factory unit that even has any anti air whatsoever, and it deals only 16 dps against what it is best against. And only 8 dps against armored air, before armor reduction on its four projectiles. The thor's anti air is garbage- literally one stimmed marine is more effective, and it costs 300/200/6. As a result a mech build will, if it doesn't get beaten on the ground, get henpecked to death by just a couple air units.
There's just nothing else to build right now as your main army apart from tons of infantry, which colossi and psi storm just wreck. Infantry are so strong, however, and they overshadow terran's other main battle unit options so drastically, that even if your opponent is fielding hardcore mass colossi or baneling or high templar, we must keep making that bio. We have no other choice.
The common thread is that terran players do not feel competitive fielding their own high tech units against other sides' high tech units. I think it is telling that we see a lot of teching in TvT, with tank+viking, banshees, thors, ravens, and sometimes battlecrusiers. Obviously these units are competitive in a mirror matchup, but we see endless bio in TvZ and TvP. Uhm it starts out at 14 dmg and its 14x4 not just 14. Thats 56 dmg vs light air and AoE. Thats pretty damn good. Thors ground attack is perfect at mopping gate way units as well. Heres the problem tho with T late game. P has infinite anwsers to any mechanical play from the T. Blink Stalks/Charge Lots/Immortals/Phoenix/Void Rays(PTR 20% vs Massive now) All of which, with chronoboost can be quickly churned out for a very effective counter So what does that leave you with? You have your Bio of course or your starport. Both of which we see heavy usage in the current TvP The Starport units are support units however, You cant just mass banshee raven viking and expect a TvP revolution. HT w feedback/storm will laugh at this. Battle Cruisers... well no. So what do we get?? We get Bio with starport support. Theres only 2 viable tech trees in this MU making it very easy for Toss to counter both. At the same time you also must factor in the advantae of late game warp gates. A toss on 3 base can support about 12-15 of these and with chronoboost he will always rebuild his army faster than you. Let me summarize my post Terran Tech Tree---------> only 2 viable options of 3 making protoss have a predictable easy counterable game(Once it gets late game) Terran Late Game production-------------> Can not match P's warp gate/chronoboost production.
Thor does 6 x 4 damage, 12 x 4 against light. The AoE is kinda useless since muta's are the only massed air unit in the game and they can easily be "microed" to avoid the small splash area. If Thors did 12 x 4 against all air they would at least be a bit a decent against armored air, remove the splash, it wasn't supposed to have that anyways.
I'd love to see medivacs run around carrying Thors and sniping Carriers ^^
|
On December 14 2010 03:23 Offhand wrote: Show nested quote +On December 14 2010 03:21 donkkk wrote:On December 14 2010 03:15 Offhand wrote:
Tanks are viable in TvP, no matter how much you whine the core fact unit isn't useless and forces a response from the protoss player in some way.
See: Mana v Naama DH finals. Nony would disagree with you Replays would be nice.
read his post history hes anti fan of tank build and criticized MaNas DH play, he says that chargelots +colo eat this alive
|
On December 14 2010 02:37 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2010 01:42 Smackzilla wrote:
I'm probably wrong, but it seems like early ghosts would solve a whole lot of the problems I've seen in TvP replays, lately. Personally, I find a ghost or two handy vs. any composition. I still need vikings vs. collosus but even then is does massive DPS to shields and helps keep me from getting raped by FFs. I also believe in walling in vs toss - call me crazy.
I agree, and its something Ive been experimenting with the last couple of days. - Mobile detection? Check. - Good vs aggression? Well it depletes sentries mana..... - Good vs passive play? Well, it depletes sentries mana.....
From my experience ghost openers die to an earlier colossi stalker push(with like 2colossi).
|
Russian Federation798 Posts
On December 14 2010 03:26 Arcanefrost wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2010 02:37 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On December 14 2010 01:42 Smackzilla wrote:
I'm probably wrong, but it seems like early ghosts would solve a whole lot of the problems I've seen in TvP replays, lately. Personally, I find a ghost or two handy vs. any composition. I still need vikings vs. collosus but even then is does massive DPS to shields and helps keep me from getting raped by FFs. I also believe in walling in vs toss - call me crazy.
I agree, and its something Ive been experimenting with the last couple of days. - Mobile detection? Check. - Good vs aggression? Well it depletes sentries mana..... - Good vs passive play? Well, it depletes sentries mana..... From my experience ghost openers die to an earlier colossi stalker push(with like 2colossi).
Yep, colosus beats ghost opening pretty handily, because there will be a low no of marauders and colosus eats through marines. Also you have to land some nice EMPs on the sentries, and hit a lot of them because just 2 sentries worth of force fields can completely ruin your day.
|
I feel forced to go bio every game against protoss, and once I get it going it's nearly impossible to transition out even well after it becomes ineffective. Tech all-ins aside, fast barracks and with upgrades is the most stable way to fend off early aggression and maintain map presence to stop protoss from mass expanding early on. But once you get 3 or 4 barracks with requisite upgrades that's it- you're basically locked into that composition because you've sunk all you resources into upgrading and maintaining your bio army. Transitioning to mech midgame means adding factories and upgrading from scratch. It leaves a massive window where you die if protoss just a-moves you with his colossi, and even if you do manage to field a relevant mech army he'll already have expanded twice and fielded the counter.
If I stick with bio though the game is out of my hands as soon as toss starts chronoboosting colossi. I've lost so many games where protoss just sits in his nat massing colossi templar. Doing nothing is actually the most sensible thing for him-if he stays in his base I can't drop. If I attack into his nat with maxed out bio army he laughs and runs me over after I trade 100 population for 10 zealots. In TvP nowadays I'm praying Toss attacks me early to allow for some counterplay, otherwise being up in bases doesn't mean crap if nothing I produce can even put a dent in his army. Getting battlecruisers has its own problem. By the time I can afford it my army's a maxed bio ball and if I suicide it I'll die to the counter well before the cruisers come out. The terran system of addons makes it really difficult to tech switch, and to make matters worse there's no flexible, dependable unit composition you can get for your investment in higher tier structures. I blame the thor personally. It's a stupid unit that's not cost effective against anything in the game and makes factory armies unviable since it can't provide anti-air and is too expensive to use as a meatshield for tanks.
|
Sounds like you need better ghost micro. Ghost > Templar
If a ghost is out of energy he can still attack, if a HT is out of energy he just sits there waiting to die or try to morph into an Archon before he gets killed. Poor HT's.
Not to mention the Mobius Reactor upgrade for Ghosts. Basically same as Amulet for Templar. Soon as the ghost pops out of the Rax he can EMP. And I'd be willing to bet if you EMP a group of zealots you can do more damage (removal of shields) than 1 storm does.
I always open ghosts vs protoss. Great vs. DT's as well, just emp them if you don't have a raven or turrets out yet. Either way, ghosts vs protoss is NEVER a bad idea.
|
what makes it P favoured is the fact that the longer the game goes, the more micro-demanding it gets for the terran, and more easy it gets for the protoss.
because at some point in lategame protoss just has enough templars to drop storms fucking everywhere, and a-moving colossi with stalkers deal insane amounts of damage without any need to dedicate apm to them.
whereas terran has to micro like a mad cunt, mantaining the concave, dodging storms, picking of templars, leapfrogging with tanks AND macroing (without the luxury of the warpgate mechanic).
so yeah i think its protoss favoured. terran is forced to get ahead early if he wants to be able to compete in lategame.
|
On December 14 2010 03:33 Savant wrote:
I feel forced to go bio every game against protoss, and once I get it going it's nearly impossible to transition out even well after it becomes ineffective. Tech all-ins aside, fast barracks and with upgrades is the most stable way to fend off early aggression and maintain map presence to stop protoss from mass expanding early on. But once you get 3 or 4 barracks with requisite upgrades that's it- you're basically locked into that composition because you've sunk all you resources into upgrading and maintaining your bio army. Transitioning to mech midgame means adding factories and upgrading from scratch. It leaves a massive window where you die if protoss just a-moves you with his colossi, and even if you do manage to field a relevant mech army he'll already have expanded twice and fielded the counter.
Forgive me if this is stupid I don't play much terran - but considering the add ons from rax are transferable to factory - shouldn't a mech transition be sort of painless?
3 rax is a 450 minerals total. Why would a mech transition be really hard here - except having to build 2 factories?
|
Russian Federation798 Posts
On December 14 2010 03:36 soulcrusher wrote:
Sounds like you need better ghost micro. Ghost > Templar
If a ghost is out of energy he can still attack, if a HT is out of energy he just sits there waiting to die or try to morph into an Archon before he gets killed. Poor HT's.
Unfortunately ghosts need to EMP multiple Templar before they gets storms off, 2 good storms significantly weaken a bio ball. Also even if the toss army is beaten, newly warped Templar can decimate bio balls. Added to this, Templar have an ability similar to EMP to counter ghosts.
I am pretty sure the thread is about Templar AFTER the amulet upgrade finishes so Templar have energy upon warp in. This is the current state of balance, if it is indeed favoured towards a certain race Blizz will fix it.
|
On December 13 2010 23:24 4Servy wrote:
once protoss has the amulet its gg, its ridic how imba that upgrade is my dog can win with protoss after they got the amulet.
1120 Damage vs 14 Stalkers with 1 emp
1150 Damage vs 23 zealots with 1 emp.
700 to 7 Colossus
1100 to 11 Immortals
Not to mention units clump under colossus, similar to air units. And Emp is a much faster tech than storm.
A perfectly placed storm on 80 clumped marines on hold postion will kill 23 marines, inflicting 1035 damage.
960 to 12 Marauders standing still
22 Ghosts for 1750 damage.... (that made me laugh)
So maybe once you get emp, you should hand your keyboard to your dog, let him do his thing. And yes I know emp will never kill my units, but its an advantage nonetheless and it has more front end damage than storm (which can't be stacked). Good yes, Imba... Probably not.
|
On December 14 2010 03:39 ganjazerg wrote:
what makes it P favoured is the fact that the longer the game goes, the more micro-demanding it gets for the terran, and more easy it gets for the protoss.
You are wrong. Protoss just gets more cost effective against terran.
|
honestly, as a T player, storm is truely annoying. Regardless, there are moves to counter, like ghosts and stuff.
|
On December 14 2010 03:25 donkkk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2010 03:23 Offhand wrote: On December 14 2010 03:21 donkkk wrote:On December 14 2010 03:15 Offhand wrote:
Tanks are viable in TvP, no matter how much you whine the core fact unit isn't useless and forces a response from the protoss player in some way.
See: Mana v Naama DH finals. Nony would disagree with you Replays would be nice. read his post history hes anti fan of tank build and criticized MaNas DH play, he says that chargelots +colo eat this alive
OK so you don't really have any ground to stand on because a build like that obviously gets crushed by vikings but please continue asserting that pro players said something and it is gospel as a result.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
