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On December 14 2010 00:16 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
I dont think warp-in 75 mana templars are what make this matchup hard at all... You need to enter into late-game with some kind of advantage but thats ok as long as this advantage can reasonably be acquired - I think on some maps thats just not the case however.
Isn't it kinda weird for you that you have to enter into lategame with an advantage? You actually need to almost win the game, then enter into lategame and then finnish it off?
What makes this matchup hard in your opinion and what would be the sollution? Do you like playing with MMM + viking + ghosts?
I really hate it that I'm forced to play MMM. I have to do a ton of (lucky) drops and then I MAYBE have a chance to win.
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I agree that hts with the energy upgrade are so strong, watching Kas army beeing decimated by 3-4 storms was painful to watch, especially on LT when he cloacked his ghosts and sniped 5-6 templars, guess what ? 5s later there were 5 hts warped in ...
I'm not saying it's imba but it's really hard as terran to handle mass storms
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On December 14 2010 00:52 Azzur wrote:Bear in mind that I'm not at the pro-level (2200 Diamond Terran). When I play TvP, I feel that my win % at the lategame is quite high. Most of my losses come from dying in the early game. I made a post about my TvP defensive-style, marine/banshee/raven into viking/banshee/BC/marine/raven: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=175014The key to my lategame play is the BC. Unlike banshees, BCs fare quite well against HTs because of their high health. BCs also perform well against stalker. In fact, I believe that protoss has no hard-counter to the BCs.
As far as I know this composition is very slow, you'll have a hard time against a mass void ray + a few templars.
With flux vanes it's possible to destroy/harass terran expos without taking many risks. Once u reach a critical number no amount of turrets will prevent the void ray harass.
However this seems to be an ok strategy on maps like Jungle basin provided u reach the late game. As a protoss I think some terran mech units (be it air or ground) should be quicker.
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On December 14 2010 01:13 Valefort wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2010 00:52 Azzur wrote:Bear in mind that I'm not at the pro-level (2200 Diamond Terran). When I play TvP, I feel that my win % at the lategame is quite high. Most of my losses come from dying in the early game. I made a post about my TvP defensive-style, marine/banshee/raven into viking/banshee/BC/marine/raven: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=175014The key to my lategame play is the BC. Unlike banshees, BCs fare quite well against HTs because of their high health. BCs also perform well against stalker. In fact, I believe that protoss has no hard-counter to the BCs. As far as I know this composition is very slow, you'll have a hard time against a mass void ray + a few templars. With flux vanes it's possible to destroy/harass terran expos without taking many risks. Once u reach a critical number no amount of turrets will prevent the void ray harass. However this seems to be an ok strategy on maps like Jungle basin provided u reach the late game. As a protoss I think some terran mech units (be it air or ground) should be quicker.
I don't see how his composition could hope to beat something along the lines of Phoenix/Void/Stalker/HT (yes, it's gas heavy but so is his composition) assuming competent storms and feedbacks, but I'll withhold judgement until I see it in action. That said, I don't think there's a point in judging a strategy's effectiveness based on how it performs against Flux Vanes seeing as they are removed as of next patch.
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oGsTOP beat Huk 4 games to 1 on huks stream last night.
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On December 14 2010 00:36 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2010 00:20 Saechiis wrote:I've watched tons and tons of TvP's recently, and it's always the same story. Terran goes MM and does well until Colossi are out, once Terran gets Vikings the battlefield evens out again and it becomes a positioning battle. When Toss gets Templar with storm out Terran's army is suddenly worthless. Ghosts are simply not enough to handle Templar in the games that I've seen. Chances of hitting all Templars with EMP are basically zero and even one storm can severely hurt a stimmed bioball. I wouldn't really want Storm to get nerfed since it's just so fun to watch good storms save the day, plus it is rarely used in PvZ and PvP already. I'd like Blizzard to put tanks back at 50 damage versus everything so a transition into pure mech becomes viable again. MnM just gets so boring to watch, especially those retarded marauders. Mech is just way more fun to watch and way more viable once storm is out. PS. give Terran their goliaths, they're badass and can actually shoot air  Im not sure pure mech is possible when the void ray is as strong as it is and there is no reasonable detection vs DTs (basically wed need spidermine and goliaths back). I dont think the tank damage is the main problem, light units are roasted by blueflame hellions anyway.
Protoss air and mass expand is what I've seen as Toss responses to mech. I don't feel DT's are as much the problem, rather the fact that Vikings are the only real counter to armored Toss air and their unimpressive showing when landed.
The Viking is one those units you pretty much only build because you have to, they're built in response to Voidrays, Colossi, Carriers, BC's, Broodlords and when they're done .. they're done. I'm hoping for the return of the goliath (event hough it looks silly in SC2) or a buff to Thor damage. They should just remove the splash and give the Thor significant damage against both armored and light. This would ephasize on upgrading your mech since the Thor's air attack scales so nicely, double armory build gogogo ^_^
Edit: or let 250mm cannon hit air.
And Jinro, you should really go on State of the Game sometime. That show really needs an objective Terran like you once in a while to poke through the Protoss bias 
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On December 14 2010 01:21 Problem2o3 wrote:
oGsTOP beat Huk 4 games to 1 on huks stream last night.
Care to give any details about the matches?
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In TvP I feel like I win early or lose badly 
It feels to me that Terrans have no good lategame units. Thor << Colossus, as Thor reduce both mobility and microability of your army, while Colossus is like its not even there - doesnt reduce anything, just adds insane firepower. Protoss have better spells. And HTs are even worse than banelings - even if you get only 2 of them where you want, they kill everything. BCs are really good (except feedback), but unsless you have like 20 of them they can be handled quite ok, before you have that 20 its again really slow and can not be microed w/o loosing too much DPS (unlike carriers). Vikings are good AA, but thats pretty much it, once you get rid of air you have nothing that just useless flying jokes (unlike VR which are weaker to air but 1000000 times more useful in general). Banshees I dont know, well they are good even in big numbers and not just harass, but again... Feedback and non air-air. Ghosts - not so good fighters, but true is that EMP sometimes rocks even as much as FF against regular units, and against specialized - well they are just awesome.
Still it feels to me that tanks and ghosts are only good TvP lategame units, maybe banshee. I see a lot of weakness in this combo
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I'm probably wrong, but it seems like early ghosts would solve a whole lot of the problems I've seen in TvP replays, lately. Personally, I find a ghost or two handy vs. any composition. I still need vikings vs. collosus but even then is does massive DPS to shields and helps keep me from getting raped by FFs. I also believe in walling in vs toss - call me crazy.
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I think one of the biggest terran problem in the late game is the add-ons of structures being required to build anything but a marine, viking/medivac, or hellion. These add-ons COST MONEY, are very easily destroyed, and cost production time too. Protoss have it easy - warp gates are FREE (aside from a ridiculously low cost of 50 min/50 gas from a structure they will build anyway) and only take 10 seconds to morph. In return, they allow the protoss to spawn their units anywhere they have a pylon and reduces their production time significantly, so they get the units when they need them, where they need them. Fighting a battle at the protoss base is such a PITA because reinforcements are so quick, and when those reinforcements are 75 energy HTs, it becomes tough.
Protoss cost for 10 warpgates - 150x10 = 1500. Build time = 75 seconds per warpgate.
Terran cost for 10 barracks, if they want to make ghosts/marauders instead of fragile marines = 150x10 = 1500 + 50x10 = 500 + A GAS COST: 25x10 = 250. Build time = 60 seconds per barracks, 25 seconds per tech lab. 85 seconds per structure.
EDIT: Forgot to do the math for people - if you count gas as 2x minerals, that is a cost of 2500 versus 1500. 1000 minerals advantage for the protoss is A LOT, especially considering protoss can make probes a lot faster than terran can make scvs. Not to mention this is only with 10 rax. It just goes uphill from there, and in late game it is not unheard of for the protoss to have 15ish gates.
I am not even going to go into reactors, because honestly, 9 times out of 10, it is better to just build another barracks. It takes 50 seconds (almost the entire time it takes to build a barracks) and 50 minerals/50 gas, if you count gas as double minerals like most people, is the same cost. Except that you cant use your current barracks until the reactor is finished. Reactor is only close to cost efficient on starports and factories, and even then, it is only good if you lift off/land to attach.
A possible fix for this, without breaking early game, Blizzard should have Tech Reactors (from the campaign) as a research from a Fusion Core (research cost of 50/50 maybe?). Tech Reactors should cost 75/75 and have a build time of 40s. There should also be an "upgrade into tech reactor" option for normal reactors and tech labs, costing 30s and the difference in cost (25 mins, 50 gas for tech labs; 25 mins, 25 gas for reactors). Only problem with this, is that it may break terran airfleet; but not really because starports only cost 150/100 as is and only take 60 secs to build. Looking at only gas cost (because in late game, minerals are easy to get anyways) - it is only about 75 gas cheaper than current form.
EDIT: Another thing this does is reduce the ridiculous amount of room terran structures take up because they have to have add-ons. Gateways end up being a lot smaller than the terran sim-city addon buildings - with tech reactors, 6 barrax, 6 tech reactors are equal to 12 barracks, 12 tech labs. Which is just a little bit smaller than 12 gateways take up.
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Yea the only way I seem to win TvPs lately is the allin rain did v genious with ~20 marines, 4 tanks, 3 banshees, a raven and pull a bunch of scv to repair and build bunkers, playing a macro game once they get templar I just can't seem to win  and doing some kind of early tech build VR pushes just own me so bad since I usualy dont have stim yet
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I think terrans get too greedy with medvacs, protoss really only has the advantage, imo, in the early midgame when 3 collussus or high temps are out, and extreme late game because of khaideren amulet.
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toss can have 3+ colossus out way before the lategame, especialy if they got for a 1gate fe straight to colossus
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Sweden33719 Posts
On December 14 2010 01:04 Dente wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2010 00:16 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
I dont think warp-in 75 mana templars are what make this matchup hard at all... You need to enter into late-game with some kind of advantage but thats ok as long as this advantage can reasonably be acquired - I think on some maps thats just not the case however. Isn't it kinda weird for you that you have to enter into lategame with an advantage? You actually need to almost win the game, then enter into lategame and then finnish it off? What makes this matchup hard in your opinion and what would be the sollution? Do you like playing with MMM + viking + ghosts? I really hate it that I'm forced to play MMM. I have to do a ton of (lucky) drops and then I MAYBE have a chance to win.
Its like TvZ in SC1 once defilers are out (tho I think in recent times, ridiculous players like flash might have made that less true than it once was, I dunno).
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Sweden33719 Posts
On December 14 2010 01:42 Smackzilla wrote:
I'm probably wrong, but it seems like early ghosts would solve a whole lot of the problems I've seen in TvP replays, lately. Personally, I find a ghost or two handy vs. any composition. I still need vikings vs. collosus but even then is does massive DPS to shields and helps keep me from getting raped by FFs. I also believe in walling in vs toss - call me crazy.
I agree, and its something Ive been experimenting with the last couple of days.
- Mobile detection? Check.
- Good vs aggression? Well it depletes sentries mana.....
- Good vs passive play? Well, it depletes sentries mana.....
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with low tech air units now being pretty good, mech isn't working quite well alone, since the thor anti air is more a hinderance then a help most of the time. Its hard to get anti air out fast enough with mech. Vikings are something like a nerfed goliaths, since you have to land and lift them with a perfect timing (and need air upgrades). They are kinda of a must have addition if you go for mech play. (provide anti air + high attack ratio). Also they are not too gas heavy. Mech is in my opionion to gas heavy to play alone, if hellions could harass more effectiv it wouldn't be that much of a problem, but because of warp in and zerg highspeed zerg units it don't work.
In TvT hellions are great to waste mins, since they can outrun every unit and deal damage to the eco. (kind of to much though if the enemy doesn't see it coming).
Makes TvT my most favorite match up since mech works quite okay there.
Against this zealot problem i read on the first side, if they go colossi with lots of zealots i get alot of vikings to snipe the colossi and get air armor, when the colossi are down (2 side viking attack) i land the vikings, perfect tanks and damage dealers against zealots.
If i they look like a templar going toss, i normally get tanks and add hellions. And have 2 groups of hellions at the side of my tank line, if the zealots charge at the tank i only have to move my hellions a litte and its a grillfest ^^, afterwards i waste my hellions to hunt down templar.
Also like to make some ninja attacks with my hellion if my enemy is moving since most people are moving their templar so they clump (and often behind their army) and well hellions like clumped hts hehe. (dunno why they move them like that, but makes it easier so i won't complain)
I think mech is just a bit too gas/supply heavy to work on its own, so terran has to stick with his t1 units since the evil t3 units are to slow and to easy to outrun.
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The root of the problem with terran is that bio is very strong, and there's nothing as strong to transition into. Mech is just abysmal against anything in the air, and it's not really feasible to mass air units. The Thor is the only factory unit that even has any anti air whatsoever, and it deals only 16 dps against what it is best against. And only 8 dps against armored air, before armor reduction on its four projectiles. The thor's anti air is garbage- literally one stimmed marine is more effective, and it costs 300/200/6. As a result a mech build will, if it doesn't get beaten on the ground, get henpecked to death by just a couple air units.
There's just nothing else to build right now as your main army apart from tons of infantry, which colossi and psi storm just wreck. Infantry are so strong, however, and they overshadow terran's other main battle unit options so drastically, that even if your opponent is fielding hardcore mass colossi or baneling or high templar, we must keep making that bio. We have no other choice.
The common thread is that terran players do not feel competitive fielding their own high tech units against other sides' high tech units. I think it is telling that we see a lot of teching in TvT, with tank+viking, banshees, thors, ravens, and sometimes battlecrusiers. Obviously these units are competitive in a mirror matchup, but we see endless bio in TvZ and TvP.
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On December 14 2010 00:16 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
I dont think warp-in 75 mana templars are what make this matchup hard at all... You need to enter into late-game with some kind of advantage but thats ok as long as this advantage can reasonably be acquired - I think on some maps thats just not the case however.
Then what is the problem with the matchup? If you can literally put your finger on one unit that ruins the game there is no need to overthink things and place the blame on some kind of subtle inner working of the game.
Additionally, if you need to get to lategame with an advantage there is a problem. Whether it is possible or not is irrelevant, since a game that is imbalanced in different spots for different races is imbalanced even if the winrate stats look close overall.
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On December 14 2010 02:59 50bani wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2010 00:16 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
I dont think warp-in 75 mana templars are what make this matchup hard at all... You need to enter into late-game with some kind of advantage but thats ok as long as this advantage can reasonably be acquired - I think on some maps thats just not the case however.
Then what is the problem with the matchup? If you can literally put your finger on one unit that ruins the game there is no need to overthink things and place the blame on some kind of subtle inner working of the game. Additionally, if you need to get to lategame with an advantage there is a problem. Whether it is possible or not is irrelevant, since a game that is imbalanced in different spots for different races is imbalanced even if the winrate stats look close overall.
This doesn't make any sense. Did any Zerg or Protoss in BW ever enter the late game vs Terran without a significant advantage? The same logic needs to be applied to TvP in SC2. In SC2, Terran is great at setting up expansions because you can build them somewhere safe and then float over to make a planetary fortress. Also, toss doesn't have marauder drops. This combined with Terran's incredible nexus-sniping ability means you should expect balance when Terran is ahead in bases.
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Don't wait until you scout hts to make ghosts. Make ghosts like every game.
Being able to take 1/3 the life off a zealot, half the life off a stalker, the important bit of life off an immortal, etc is never bad. Also you shut down heavy force field play and force guardian shield up early. If mass gateway units is going to be the preferred way to play PvT, then early ghost might have to come at the cost of some other tech (maybe banshee cloak, idk).
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EPT
