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I play about 2000 diamond terran, After watching those games, and through my experience I think the only thing thats not really balanced in PVT are templars. Once the templar count and upgrades finish, in a macro game, you literally cannot win unless you are 10x better than the opponent.
From my own experience: Yesterday I was up 2 bases on a toss and up 50 food, I attacked with Bio, Raven, Banshee, which will flatten non templar toss armies for the most part. I got stormed and feedbacked to death. Because I was up so many bases, I was able to macro and rebuilt, Bio, medivac, BCs, then I emp'd my BC's so they wouldnt get feedbacked, and He still stormed all my units into the ground. (you cant move BCS out of storm, and if there are enough storms combined with stalker fire BCS will fall fairly quickly). while I was trying to EMP the templar he would just warp in more and throw down 8 More storms. He then slowly expanded, and I couldnt stop him because every time i tried to push, storm would just smash my face.
In a last ditch effort I switched into Thors, + bio for support and a couple of BCS, this faired a little better, but since he had absolutely smashed me twice before and was now on even bases, I was still taking unfavorable army trades. He then pushed in with Mass stalker, Zealot, Templar and a mothership and wiped the floor with my 200/200 Thor, Marauder, BC army and won the game.
Im not saying a better terran couldnt have pressured his slow expanding better, but like I said, you need to be a way better player than the opponent to effectively harass anything when he can just warp in templar anywhere and storm you.
Now, that said, I acknowledge that there is a hugely strong timing window to attack before amulet is finished where you can push with a raven and wipe the floor with any stalker heavy army(which most toss armies are). But if you dont hit that window and he is able to stabilize his templar count, you are in so much trouble. I would much rather face mass colossus than templar.
But thats my lowly opinion, and of course Im sure lots of protoss players will disagree 
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Early pressure to set up my own FE and hold the P back as long as possible. After turtling from mid to lategame i use pure Marauder Medivac Viking combinations. Did not loose much games when i survived the midgame push. Pushing through with stim marauder works well even if P gets storms.
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Storm is good for the same reason Tanks are good.. Once you get sufficient numbers, its extremly cost effective. Units clumping in SC2 are really food for splash damage.
The only difference is, Tanks were nerfed to death..
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Does Mech actually work in TvP? perhaps like in SCBW, tanks helions?? It seems quite logical theoretically, with the same concept as SCBW, tanks>stalkers while helions>zeals, while tanks>colosus too. But T now has no mines. so perhaps the biggest problem of mech is that the mobility is even worse than in SCBW due to not having mines to control the map. And maybe Voids is a really big problem to this mech style. Is 80 damage storm really significant to mech? HTs doesnt seem to be effective against mech, so amulet upgrade wouldn't be much of a problem then?? Im not sure about all my points. All i know is that i dint have much success with mech build in TvP, so i think perhaps its my controls which are bad. What do u all think??
But overall is it workable using map in TvP??
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On December 14 2010 00:01 Everlong wrote:
Storm is good for the same reason Tanks are good.. Once you get sufficient numbers, its extremly cost effective. Units clumping in SC2 are really food for splash damage.
The only difference is, Tanks were nerfed to death..
Tanks also have a really strong, reliable counter. You can lift them with pheonixes. You know you got all the tanks because they don't move. High templar... you can get so many (because the same buildings you use to make your main composition, you can just as well use to make high templar) and they can move and be sprinkled in places you won't think to EMP.
IN addition, doesn't storm do 80 damage over x seconds over that giant area? Not only is that more damage than a tank, but it can potentially one-shot your marines, especially if you're using stim.
I'm inclined to believe that we just can't remain using infantry in the end game. But what other good compositions are there? I think I'm going to experiment with tanks and hellions.... perhaps ghosts and marauders as well, to absorb damage and do spells.
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On December 14 2010 00:04 weiliem wrote:
Does Mech actually work in TvP? perhaps like in SCBW, tanks helions?? It seems quite logical theoretically, with the same concept as SCBW, tanks>stalkers while helions>zeals, while tanks>colosus too. But T now has no mines. so perhaps the biggest problem of mech is that the mobility is even worse than in SCBW due to not having mines to control the map. And maybe Voids is a really big problem to this mech style. Is 80 damage storm really significant to mech? HTs doesnt seem to be effective against mech, so amulet upgrade wouldn't be much of a problem then?? Im not sure about all my points. All i know is that i dint have much success with mech build in TvP, so i think perhaps its my controls which are bad. What do u all think??
But overall is it workable using map in TvP??
In SC2 it doesnt work like this.. If you run your mech into chargelots, Immortals and anything from Protoss air tech, you are basically dead within few seconds.
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Sweden33719 Posts
I dont think warp-in 75 mana templars are what make this matchup hard at all... You need to enter into late-game with some kind of advantage but thats ok as long as this advantage can reasonably be acquired - I think on some maps thats just not the case however.
Lots of ghost harass (nukes), spreading army and lots of pressure makes it ok, for the most part.
On December 14 2010 00:04 weiliem wrote:
Does Mech actually work in TvP? perhaps like in SCBW, tanks helions?? It seems quite logical theoretically, with the same concept as SCBW, tanks>stalkers while helions>zeals, while tanks>colosus too. But T now has no mines. so perhaps the biggest problem of mech is that the mobility is even worse than in SCBW due to not having mines to control the map. And maybe Voids is a really big problem to this mech style. Is 80 damage storm really significant to mech? HTs doesnt seem to be effective against mech, so amulet upgrade wouldn't be much of a problem then?? Im not sure about all my points. All i know is that i dint have much success with mech build in TvP, so i think perhaps its my controls which are bad. What do u all think??
But overall is it workable using map in TvP??
Not really because:
- Many maps dont allow it
- No good detection options
- No good early anti-air options
- Too fucking slow and vulnerable to counters on most maps
- Carriers.
Playing mech TvP seems to end up with either a really long game where you die to carriers or void rays, or a really short game where you try to attack before you are maxed or whatever and die, or get countered or something.
If protoss doesnt build carriers or void rays, yeah 200/200 in siege tank, hellion, ghost is gonna decimate anything. I think mech isnt viable as a primary play style at the moment.
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I've watched tons and tons of TvP's recently, and it's always the same story.
Terran goes MM and does well until Colossi are out, once Terran gets Vikings the battlefield evens out again and it becomes a positioning battle. When Toss gets Templar with storm out Terran's army is suddenly worthless.
Ghosts are simply not enough to handle Templar in the games that I've seen. Chances of hitting all Templars with EMP are basically zero and even one storm can severely hurt a stimmed bioball.
I wouldn't really want Storm to get nerfed since it's just so fun to watch good storms save the day, plus it is rarely used in PvZ and PvP already. I'd like Blizzard to put tanks back at 50 damage versus everything so a transition into pure mech becomes viable again. MnM just gets so boring to watch, especially those retarded marauders. Mech is just way more fun to watch and way more viable once storm is out.
PS. give Terran their goliaths, they're badass and can actually shoot air
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On December 14 2010 00:16 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
I dont think warp-in 75 mana templars are what make this matchup hard at all...
I wish he had closed the thread on this note.
Anyway, QXC and Kiwikaki played a series earlier this week in a tournament. I cannot recall which, sorry.
Qxc did this marvelous thing in the late game. He transitioned out of bio. Wow! Banshee, raven, BC, thor, marine. Incredible. Eighty damage on a thor doesn't seem to do much.
The match up has not been explored enough yet. Try out something other than mmm/viking with some tanks.
And hell, I see plenty of protoss users lose to this. It's the evolution of a game where someone has to win and the other player has to lose.
See MLG (dallas?) where select beats a larage number of protoss players one after the other. Most of the games last 20-25 minutes.
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On December 14 2010 00:20 Saechiis wrote:
I've watched tons and tons of TvP's recently, and it's always the same story.
Terran goes MM and does well until Colossi are out, once Terran gets Vikings the battlefield evens out again and it becomes a positioning battle. When Toss gets Templar with storm out Terran's army is suddenly worthless.
Ghosts are simply not enough to handle Templar in the games that I've seen. Chances of hitting all Templars with EMP are basically zero and even one storm can severely hurt a stimmed bioball.
I wouldn't really want Storm to get nerfed since it's just so fun to watch good storms save the day, plus it is rarely used in PvZ and PvP already. I'd like Blizzard to put tanks back at 50 damage versus everything so a transition into pure mech becomes viable again. MnM just gets so boring to watch, especially those retarded marauders. Mech is just way more fun to watch and way more viable once storm is out.
PS. give Terran goliaths, they're badass.
Oh man, how Id love to see this happening.. But Blizz wont let die one unit (Viking) to make another one see the light of life.
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I have a lot of trouble vs. Terran early game, I need to have really good force fields to prevent kiting and trade armies, and only minor trouble late game, once I get DT's HT with Amulet out and they are going heavy Bio.
I think theres something wrong with this. I have no idea how it would be adjusted that early Terran pushes are weakened, but their late game vs. Protoss is a bit stronger.
I do think Terrans need to start incorporating more Pre-Ignitor Hellions into their play, they kill Zealots and High Templar so fast (Which if you keep Colossus count low, should be the majority of the Protoss' force once amulet is done). A kill squad of ~6 Hellions to flank and snipe HT or just to smack some damage down on Zealots is pretty insane.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On December 14 2010 00:20 Saechiis wrote:I've watched tons and tons of TvP's recently, and it's always the same story. Terran goes MM and does well until Colossi are out, once Terran gets Vikings the battlefield evens out again and it becomes a positioning battle. When Toss gets Templar with storm out Terran's army is suddenly worthless. Ghosts are simply not enough to handle Templar in the games that I've seen. Chances of hitting all Templars with EMP are basically zero and even one storm can severely hurt a stimmed bioball. I wouldn't really want Storm to get nerfed since it's just so fun to watch good storms save the day, plus it is rarely used in PvZ and PvP already. I'd like Blizzard to put tanks back at 50 damage versus everything so a transition into pure mech becomes viable again. MnM just gets so boring to watch, especially those retarded marauders. Mech is just way more fun to watch and way more viable once storm is out. PS. give Terran their goliaths, they're badass and can actually shoot air
Im not sure pure mech is possible when the void ray is as strong as it is and there is no reasonable detection vs DTs (basically wed need spidermine and goliaths back). I dont think the tank damage is the main problem, light units are roasted by blueflame hellions anyway.
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On December 13 2010 23:05 Arcanefrost wrote:
Are you guys honestly looking at the winrate of he entire diamond division? That means absolutely nothing. In bw protoss had a high ladder winratio but was the least succesful pro race. In pro games it's 54-46 in terrans favor, which means its pretty well balanced. Mc is best pvt atm, again his stats mean nothing, im sure hes more than 50-50 in pvz too..., he is simpy ten times better than jinro and i dont think anyone can beat mc in pvt atm.
LOL. Your statement only makes sense... if you are a pro-gamer. Obviously, one race is easier to play well at diamond and below and it would otherwise require pro-gamer level micro to equalize.
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On December 13 2010 23:51 freetgy wrote:
HT with Storm and Energie Upgrade is almost the highest Techlevel Protoss can get, if you then are still walking around with M&M sure you gonna die.
Ugh, this argument is incredibly common and frustrates me every time I see it. Terran players use other units in other matchups, so it's not as if they are averse to using other units. However, what other units would you suggest against Protoss? Marauders are just by far the most efficient unit against Protoss (also Marines before AoE comes out).
Also, Starcraft 2 is not a game where Tier 3 > Tier 2 > Tier 1. Should me making Factory units automatically make Zealots useless?
On December 14 2010 00:36 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Im not sure pure mech is possible when the void ray is as strong as it is and there is no reasonable detection vs DTs (basically wed need spidermine and goliaths back). I dont think the tank damage is the main problem, light units are roasted by blueflame hellions anyway.
What are your opinions on an optimal late game army composition? As I said in my post earlier in this thread, I mainly go for a massive Marauder/Medivac ball with a lot of kiting and Ghosts/Vikings for support/harassment, and occasionally Banshees to snipe random Templar while I use Vikings to kill Observers. Do you feel that there is any stage of the game at which you can reasonably leave bio-centric play and hope to win on most maps?
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I'd definitely agree that one of the most difficult things about trying to go mech in TvP is the lack of any decent anti-air against void rays. Literally the only good unit to not die to them are marines. Thors and Vikings are awful generally. I'm also always really worried about the P seeing mech play and just making more Immortals than usual.
It really saddens me that every single T matchup is reduced to MMM + maybe 1 or 2 other units peppered in and that's it. It's so boring to both play and watch, but there really is just no transition or alternate army composition that you can do that is as effective.
I've been thinking for awhile now that they should nerf the marauder in some way (health or damage), and then buff the tank, maybe adding more +damage vs armored to bring it up to how it was in BW (70 to large, 35 to small).. maybe 60 or 65 damage total to armored units instead of just 50. That doesn't fix the issue with dealing with void rays, but at least it would be a start to make tanks actually seem scary in the early game as they did in BW instead of complete pushovers.
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This trend is nothing new.
If Protoss gets to the midgame on equal economic terms or maybe slightly weaker than terran, Protoss should win every time unless they make an atrocious mistake.
Blizzard knows this, we all know this, I honestly don't understand the necessity for another thread.
The only way to consistently win TvP is to execute 2-base timing pushed geared to killing or severely crippling protoss as they transition to midgame, and then use ghost's emps to preemptively stop the threat of psi storm.
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Bear in mind that I'm not at the pro-level (2200 Diamond Terran).
When I play TvP, I feel that my win % at the lategame is quite high. Most of my losses come from dying in the early game.
I made a post about my TvP defensive-style, marine/banshee/raven into viking/banshee/BC/marine/raven:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=175014
The key to my lategame play is the BC. Unlike banshees, BCs fare quite well against HTs because of their high health. BCs also perform well against stalker. In fact, I believe that protoss has no hard-counter to the BCs.
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On December 14 2010 00:22 Ummbeefy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2010 00:16 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
I dont think warp-in 75 mana templars are what make this matchup hard at all... I wish he had closed the thread on this note.
On December 14 2010 00:51 KiLL_ORdeR wrote:
Blizzard knows this, we all know this, I honestly don't understand the necessity for another thread.
Why do people see discussions as something bad? Why can't we have a nice discussion about the possibilities of T against P? The purpose of a discussion is to bring eachother to a higher level. As long as we don't flame eachother I don't see a problem.
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EPT
