EPT[D/H] The end of Supply Depots? - Page 14
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terranghost
United States980 Posts
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Marceuse
United States23 Posts
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ledarsi
United States475 Posts
Seriously, the ability to build a command center at a protected location, fly it out into dangerous areas at your discretion, and ninja-mule the daylights out of an expo (especially gold) significantly adds to the value of just having a command center lying around. Even if you can't use it right away, it contributes with scv production and the use of mules, and you can move it later. I've had the most success with just taking the entire map because I can, even if it weakens my army to do so. It's easier to do than you would think, you just can't do it all right away. It does take time. Coupled with normal amounts of harass, such as with banshees, your opponent will be too busy to spot you taking the entire map, and probably unable to attack you even if he notices. Get more expansions than you can mine from effectively with scvs. Turn enough of them into orbital commands that you can mass mule whichever one is in the most danger, and then just pick up that base and move somewhere else. | ||
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lowercase
Canada1047 Posts
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TedJustice
Canada1324 Posts
If you happened to have 15 Orbital Commands lying around for some reason, however, this would be great. | ||
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Chronald
United States619 Posts
As for numbers, since 4OCs per base in the early/early-mid game would be more than enough to satisfy high income needs, maps needs to be identified that can easily be walled with 1+ command center. Don't forget that to defend a strat like this bunkers become horribly valuable. Ledarsi also touched upon the concept of ninja-muling the gold expos, imagine getting to a gold base and having it be 3/4 mined out :trollface: ensues. The biggest issue with this style is surviving the early pressure so that your 4OCs can really kick in. I doubt people will master this style, or even take the time to learn it, until someone finds a clean build to have OCs building and marines/maraduers pumping. If this can happen, then fuck Supply Depots. Also, remember how I saw 10 marine in 7:30 with 4 OCs and Stim? With two bunkers at 7:30 and two OCs walling your base, you can easily survive early pressure, and let your massive income kick in, and then start shitting barracks and marines. I think once the 4OC are up, (which should be AROUND the number per base, since 4 mules gives something like 1500-1600 income off one base X_X), then the first real teching can happen, and once you need gas is when I would think you would take your nat, two more assimilators, and start chugging out anything. Ledarsi also makes a good point, stacking your OCs may not be as effective has having them all over the map. On the other hand, you don't want to let your income OR supply die. I don't think you should be over-extending your first 4 OCs, but after that you will have a 2base income, so you can start to play more risky with your OCs, but don't forget to keep around 3-4 per base. Try these out, not on ladder, but just against the computer or your friends, try different approaches, rax first, cc first, etc. As much as BO optimizers are nice, they can't account for all of the things that you might need in a build. Safety is the main goal until you hit that critical mass of OCs. Plus, its hard as shit to break a CC wall early game. | ||
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Generic SC
New Zealand179 Posts
Adjust your build slightly, to facilitate one or two extra orbitals. All of a sudden you are producing way more then you should be off the amount of bases you have, allowing a turtling terran with siege tanks to power that much harder, without having to give up a good map position. It would be a good way to catch the opponent off guard, especially on maps with hard to defend 2/3rd bases. | ||
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TekKpriest
308 Posts
e: Zerg and Toss will love you. | ||
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danielzig
32 Posts
Calling down supply would also help bridge the gap in supply if you are trying to substitute OCs for supply depots. Basically, even call down supply becomes a good ability as long as you have the OC energy for it - if you had the energy, you'd want each supply depot to be x'd before you got to 200/200. Obviously in most cases you'd want to use mules instead, but as part of a build like this, maybe call-down supplies would be useful in a few key spots.. I wouldn't be surprised. | ||
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ledarsi
United States475 Posts
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Neo.NEt
United States785 Posts
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Neo.NEt
United States785 Posts
On December 03 2010 21:07 terranghost wrote: I'm not sure if you are serious are not, if you are a cc takes alot longer to build then a depo I just can't imagine this working however, I would eat my words if I saw a decent game where this was done. I'm not saying this works perfectly, but think about how many fewer depots you would need if you weren't constantly making scvs. | ||
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blinks
United States1 Post
The question is whether the Terran can make this army/worker ratio work for them early enough in the game. It'll be interesting to see! | ||
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Crimson.Void
15 Posts
Also since, theoretically, you have no energy for scan's, DT are a big threat as well. If DT's were to attack at the end of your muling cycle, you should have enough energy for several scans, but your economy would suffer. If they attack right after you called down your mules, you're economy might be in trouble. If executed properly, a player can keep his/her DT’s alive and force you to waste scans. A quick snipe of the raven, and its mule-galore for DT's. -- The true power of this build comes from the number of OC’s you would have, and migrating bases every few minutes. Technically you should be stuck on one base, but you are mining at significantly higher rates than ‘standard’ mining. I would recommend 5 OC’s; the fifth for scans and migrating while one mineral patch is running out, so you can seamlessly switch bases as one dries out. Also you’d want to keep a base at your main and natural for gas(most likely more). This is also a weakness since after 3-4 swaps your main OC is across the map from your building structures, and your army can’t be in two places at once. Everything I just said is also theory craft, and also heavily skewed towards Protoss(don’t play Zerg or Terran) counters for this build. This seems like this build sets up for heavy early turtling, and pushing the towards mid-late game, obviously vulnerable to 1 base pushes/allins. Tl;DR: Edit: Just saw Griffiths' 200/200 13 minute 4OC push thread. I don't have time to read through it right now, but a quick skim, makes it seem very powerful against Zerg, and could be tweaked for TvP. | ||
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mr_tolkien
France8631 Posts
«Love 30to1's post on mules on tl. Lots of top players been talkin abt this late game for some time, don't think it's realistic early!» | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
I'm not sure if this pertains exactly to this thread but the game really made my brain hurt and I was looking for an outlet for my mule nerd rage xD | ||
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ThrustVectoring
12 Posts
As long as you are mining off of at least one base, any in-base orbital command is a quarter of the mineral income from a fully saturated base. This is without any extra surface area for your opponent to attack you on. THAT is what is truly broken about this idea. Protoss and Zerg have to open up another base to getting attacked in order to get any more mineral income once their bases are fully saturated, while Terrans don't. Any time that the Terran gains an advantage in relative army size, they can immediately throw down an in-base orbital to turn it into a safe economic edge going into the late game. The orbital pays for itself in supply + mules in about four and a half minutes, so that's the timing window for the opponent to either get more effective bases, better tech, or break you with a timing push. Basically, any time the Terran could be adding a base, they can instead add economy without adding bases for roughly comparable costs. You can no longer assume that the Terran's economy hasn't improved just because they haven't taken any more expansions - you have to scout their base to know their economic output. | ||
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ThrustVectoring
12 Posts
On December 04 2010 02:16 Crimson.Void wrote: Also if a couple templar were to feedback your OC's IIRC, you can't feedback buildings. You can EMP buildings, though, but that turns it into a TvT strategy where you drop a ghost into their orbital farm and EMP it for massive damage. | ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
You can't feedback orbital commands. | ||
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Crimson.Void
15 Posts
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