EPT[D/H] The end of Supply Depots? - Page 15
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ExoD
United States37 Posts
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JWD
United States12607 Posts
(Tweeted.) | ||
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MrMotionPicture
United States4327 Posts
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t3tsubo
Canada682 Posts
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Kiri
United States84 Posts
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Chronald
United States619 Posts
Mid to late game, Terran's start to gather large amount of minerals that become hard to spend. During beta players were dumping these minerals into PFs and more marines, however, once a steady army production has been established off of two bases, little stands in a turtle Terran's way of topping 3-4 more OCs. Every so often, adding an extra OC once you start farming them will make your income huge. Terran players, try normal early game openers, and once you get into a comfortable mid game, try adding extra OCs to your build, and I am 100% positive your win ratio will start to go up. Taking a third might not be as costly as once thought, simply fly to a base, mine 1/3 to a 1/2 of it and bounce, two or three large mule calldowns can completely decimate an expo. If you use PFs at clutch expos to mine to, you can setup assimilators as well to get gas. Pretty soon your econ is mobile, large, and highly difficult to prevent. Terran's can choke out opponents in the late game simply by stealing minerals from their opponents. If a zerg tries to expo to a 4th that is already at 2/3 or 1/2 or its total value makes that expansion MUCH less scary as a 2 or 3 base Terran. With time this will start to develop more, but it is an awesome step in SC2, because it shows the community is really starting to think about how this game can be played better. To think that 30to1 came up with this idea 6 months after release is awesome, imagine what another 6 will do for us! Great job OP | ||
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imPERSONater
United States1324 Posts
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Senorcuidado
United States700 Posts
edit: I forgot you didn't have replays in your OP, that was Griffith's thread that had a few. Either way, you should both post more replays! | ||
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KinosJourney2
Sweden1811 Posts
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Stoids
United States636 Posts
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awesomoecalypse
United States2235 Posts
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ffdestiny
United States773 Posts
But, really, this is why Zergs were *exploiting* hatch first, and this is why fast-expanding is economically advantaged. This doesn't ever take account, though, for *real* gaming factors; you know actually being attacked? needing units to defend? needing a specific timing? just some examples. You know, spending all your perfectly placed mule minerals on command centers, instead of units, or spending all your chrono-boosts on probes, instead of tech, or spending all your larvae on drones, instead of units. Or, making more hatcheries for spawn-larvae injection spam, WHICH, has the ability to re-food a 200/200 army, in mere seconds. The simple fact is with harass, and you know, actual people attacking you, forcing you to select *natural* play, you're theory-crafting turns into a pile of steaming horse manure. | ||
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Forester
United States116 Posts
On December 04 2010 04:15 ffdestiny wrote: I hate theory-crafting, because I feel it's a tool for asperger candidates or individuals who have undiagnosed obsessive compulsive disorder. At any rate, I want to just say that every race gets a macro mechanic that can be viewed as *broken*. Now, if you're Artosis, you're just going to troll-lo-lo-lo your way, because of your obvious bias for Zerg. And he's probably upset at the recent Terran dominance, after finding out you can 2-rax, or early-push a greedy Zerg, and damage them severely. But, really, this is why Zergs were *exploiting* hatch first, and this is why fast-expanding is economically advantaged. This doesn't ever take account, though, for *real* gaming factors; you know actually being attacked? needing units to defend? needing a specific timing? just some examples. You know, spending all your perfectly placed mule minerals on command centers, instead of units, or spending all your chrono-boosts on probes, instead of tech, or spending all your larvae on drones, instead of units. Or, making more hatcheries for spawn-larvae injection spam, WHICH, has the ability to re-food a 200/200 army, in mere seconds. The simple fact is with harass, and you know, actual people attacking you, forcing you to select *natural* play, you're theory-crafting turns into a pile of steaming horse manure. Exactly, that's why now we wait for some Korean, with ridiculous amounts of time to perfect it, to come along and show us a solid BO. The build has to come from somewhere, and that somewhere is, usually, theorycrafting. | ||
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Stoids
United States636 Posts
On December 04 2010 04:15 ffdestiny wrote: The simple fact is with harass, and you know, actual people attacking you, forcing you to select *natural* play, you're theory-crafting turns into a pile of steaming horse manure. You missed the point of the thread. No one is saying "omg 4 ocs OP early game." We are all interested in the viability of making OCs in the late game in mass. | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6566 Posts
On December 04 2010 04:15 ffdestiny wrote: I hate theory-crafting, because I feel it's a tool for asperger candidates or individuals who have undiagnosed obsessive compulsive disorder. At any rate, I want to just say that every race gets a macro mechanic that can be viewed as *broken*. Now, if you're Artosis, you're just going to troll-lo-lo-lo your way, because of your obvious bias for Zerg. And he's probably upset at the recent Terran dominance, after finding out you can 2-rax, or early-push a greedy Zerg, and damage them severely. But, really, this is why Zergs were *exploiting* hatch first, and this is why fast-expanding is economically advantaged. This doesn't ever take account, though, for *real* gaming factors; you know actually being attacked? needing units to defend? needing a specific timing? just some examples. You know, spending all your perfectly placed mule minerals on command centers, instead of units, or spending all your chrono-boosts on probes, instead of tech, or spending all your larvae on drones, instead of units. Or, making more hatcheries for spawn-larvae injection spam, WHICH, has the ability to re-food a 200/200 army, in mere seconds. The simple fact is with harass, and you know, actual people attacking you, forcing you to select *natural* play, you're theory-crafting turns into a pile of steaming horse manure. I understand what you are saying here, but you have to understand that theory crafting is the first step to a meta game shift. Take guineapig's skytoss against zerg. This build probably emerged with some one thinking, hey, void rays are good against zerg right now because so many zergs are favoring roach play. So then he decided to 1gate into stargate play after perhaps posting a thread on a korean teamliquid site saying "hey guys. Roaches can't shoot up. So we should make only air units to beat them" and probably got 50 pages of people yelling at him "stfu noob, stupid idea you'll die before you get there. stop theorycrafting and making collosus." But then it ocurred to him that if he forge expanded on maps where he could do it safely, he would have enough gas to get up an adequate number of gas-heavy air units on equal terms with the zerg. And then he discovered: Hey! when I make a bunch of void rays, the other guy has to make hydralisks because unlike roaches, hydralisks shoot up! So when he makes hydralisks, I can transition into robo tech and smash his face. And then suddenly a viable playstyle was born. So I'm not saying we are going to see terrans suddenly massing orbital commands and skipping depots, but I've already seen a few builds where a terran will make an in-base OC very quickly just for the additional mules (and some scv production, but who needs those?) without instantly floating it to the natural. So maybe we will see more of these builds, and maybe we won't. But it is perfectly acceptable for the OP to share with us his numbers and experience for discussion. | ||
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Satire
Canada295 Posts
Most people are also missing a legitimate use of this strategy, that is all but devastating to an opponent if it gets up running. You can actually summon a shit ton of mules into their mineral line after a scan and mine them out very quickly. We've had it work exceptionally well in 2v2 where one person feeds the other, and late game we just starve our opponents out by mining their base out while the fed person draws attention. Again, the difficulty there is that getting to that point is never reliable, and thus the strategy is flawed. Absolutely hilarious, but flawed. In 1v1 though, this is really is difficult to make work. It's too vulnerable to harass and gives you opponent complete map control, which is dangerous in any match up. It for sure has a legitimate context in the mid-game though when you can afford to spare those minerals and don't have to forfeit map control to do it. | ||
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dahorns
21 Posts
On December 04 2010 04:15 ffdestiny wrote: I hate theory-crafting, because I feel it's a tool for asperger candidates or individuals who have undiagnosed obsessive compulsive disorder. At any rate, I want to just say that every race gets a macro mechanic that can be viewed as *broken*. Now, if you're Artosis, you're just going to troll-lo-lo-lo your way, because of your obvious bias for Zerg. And he's probably upset at the recent Terran dominance, after finding out you can 2-rax, or early-push a greedy Zerg, and damage them severely. But, really, this is why Zergs were *exploiting* hatch first, and this is why fast-expanding is economically advantaged. This doesn't ever take account, though, for *real* gaming factors; you know actually being attacked? needing units to defend? needing a specific timing? just some examples. You know, spending all your perfectly placed mule minerals on command centers, instead of units, or spending all your chrono-boosts on probes, instead of tech, or spending all your larvae on drones, instead of units. Or, making more hatcheries for spawn-larvae injection spam, WHICH, has the ability to re-food a 200/200 army, in mere seconds. The simple fact is with harass, and you know, actual people attacking you, forcing you to select *natural* play, you're theory-crafting turns into a pile of steaming horse manure. This is what happens when you just read the opening post and don't read any of the following discussion. The general consensus is that this is far more viable as a mid/late game economic boost rather than as an early "economic cheese" build. The fact of the matter is that mules allow a Terran to increase their rate of income without increasing their footprint on a map. All other races would have to expand and thus make themselves more vulnerable to attack. Other posts worried about mining out quickly are poorly thought out. You'll always want minerals now rather than minerals later. | ||
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Conrose
437 Posts
But DT's really aren't that much a threat against this build since often you'll have an OC within 10 seconds of Muling or scanning... It's not like all your OC's energy are aligned. I've had one Protoss player go GG before I even pressed out of my natural with my marine ball because he went with a heavy DT play. When he saw my wall, he GG'd right there. | ||
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fishinguy
Russian Federation798 Posts
On December 04 2010 04:52 Conrose wrote: Using 2 OCs on rocked off Gold Expansions to prevent an opponent from chasing you out and taking up camp themselves is useful. I think that Jungle Basin is a really good level for this sort of build with 2 Expansions walled off with Rocks, 2 Expansions that you can wall off with 6 OCs, plus 2 Gold Expands that aren't rocked off. Lost Temple would also be a good level for this unless your opponent is Protoss and uses the Warp Prism Elevator trick. But DT's really aren't that much a threat against this build since often you'll have an OC within 10 seconds of Muling or scanning... It's not like all your OC's energy are aligned. I've had one Protoss player go GG before I even pressed out of my natural with my marine ball because he went with a heavy DT play. When he saw my wall, he GG'd right there. Island maps are good for this 2 - LT and SS also delta quadrant because of back door. I think shakuras is also good because you can float and orbital to the middle base. Steppes could also be viable for one of the corner blocked bases - lol thats more than half the maps | ||
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kurrysauce
272 Posts
Just when I thought his push was over , he came in with another fairly sized army and sniped my expos .  . | ||
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