this is a very interesting idea. now what if u replaced mineral mining scv's with mules instead so cutting scv's to get normal income as terran you would also be freeing up food for an army allowing a bigger army to be formed though from an apm sense u would have to be spot on with ur mule timing.

KevinIX

United States2472 Posts

December 03 2010 07:15 GMT

#242

This is interesting, although I somehow doubt it will work. Dumping 400 minerals all at once will hurt you in the short run. 3 minutes to recuperate is pretty long.

michaelhasanalias

Korea (South)1231 Posts

December 03 2010 07:41 GMT

#243

OP, I think you might do well to include a brief FAQ on your post... as many posts in the last few pages are just reiterating previously disproved or addressed points.

Carefoot

Canada410 Posts

December 03 2010 07:46 GMT

#244

I literally have replays of me doing this on ladder during beta back when Platinum was the highest you could go as far as ladder ranking. I did this as a joke and the guy conceded at the end of the game "gg, never seen anyone play this style"

I'll see if I can explain to my mom how to turn on my computer so she can put some of the ones from post-beta onto replayfu.

caduceus

United States11 Posts

December 03 2010 07:49 GMT

#245

Great thread. Would love to see replays (successful or otherwise) as this develops.

Interestingly, qxc used this strat style in the late game against mini(P), with numerous OC's and PF's on Lost Temple. I think he had OC's in the teens. He even spammed mules on mini's mineral patches to pick off some of his (potential) income.

Long game, but definitely worth the watch even for the entertainment value alone (loads of double drops, nukes, mothership, mass carriers, etc.).

Anyway, here's the link to this pretty epic game: http://inflowgaming.net/download-replay.php?id=160

Result spoiler and further comment below:
+ Show Spoiler +

qxc eventually lost the game, but I think it shows that massing OC's late game clearly has potential.

ilikecheese

United States8 Posts

December 03 2010 07:52 GMT

#246

I like the idea behind it, but you'll still need some supply depots to keep up with the army production in the early-mid game. But I can see this type of play really working lategame.

Sv1

United States204 Posts

December 03 2010 07:59 GMT

#247

I love it. This is like sc2 mad science. I'm in the camp of the skeptical because it calls for a lot of variables that the opponent needs to satisfy, but hey more power to you!

ectonym

United States147 Posts

December 03 2010 08:15 GMT

#248

If this has the ability to "break" the game, would a food/supply requirement for mules fix that?

Kantutan

Canada1319 Posts

December 03 2010 08:29 GMT

#249

I always wondered why someone hasn't thought of something like this yet for the mid or late game. Early on I doubt it's worth it since you'll be so vulnerable as well as the fact your main will get cluttered quickly.

vectorix108

United States4633 Posts

December 03 2010 08:39 GMT

#250

wow this is extremely well written. i need to try this out sometime

DeCoder

Finland236 Posts

December 03 2010 08:52 GMT

#251

I actually had someone pull this on me the other day. He was sitting on three bases in Delta Quadrant and had 2 additional in-base orbital commands, 5 in total. His third was a gold and it had no SCV's mining. Instead he used all his mules on the gold. The production output he was capable was outstanding and I had difficulties keeping him at bay even though he was producing exclusively marines and I had 5 bases producing exclusively speed banelings with some zerglings to boot.

I've never seen so many marines die at once though.

SeaMoosi

United States62 Posts

December 03 2010 08:59 GMT

#252

I really like this idea, might try it next time I go Terran. I never really took note before that MULEs don't cost food (sounds silly right?). But that extra saved 20 food could be an extra drop, more tanks, more vikings, etc.
I'd like to see how this could work in teamplay though, I can see a PT combo with the Terran muling working extremely well.

ledarsi

United States475 Posts

December 03 2010 09:01 GMT

#253

It seems the orbital command is best used to grab additional bases rather than be built in-base. Having additional orbital commands is obviously good, but if you only use them for mules you are wasting a huge amount of your investment. Use it to claim an additional base, and maynard scv's over there.

It's better to have 5 bases with your 5 orbital commands than have 3 bases and 2 in-base orbitals, although you can fly them out later. The use of command centers as firebases, or planetary fortresses for bases that need self-defense allows the use of mules all over the map.

It seems terran is the race that really, really wants to control the entire map. It allows mining out the entire map, which bolsters your income and also means that if the game goes long, your enemy will be forced to attack into you in order to claim a base, and it will be significantly depleted even if they succeed.

michaelhasanalias

Korea (South)1231 Posts

December 03 2010 09:12 GMT

#254

On December 03 2010 18:01 ledarsi wrote:
It seems the orbital command is best used to grab additional bases rather than be built in-base. Having additional orbital commands is obviously good, but if you only use them for mules you are wasting a huge amount of your investment. Use it to claim an additional base, and maynard scv's over there.

It's better to have 5 bases with your 5 orbital commands than have 3 bases and 2 in-base orbitals, although you can fly them out later. The use of command centers as firebases, or planetary fortresses for bases that need self-defense allows the use of mules all over the map.

It seems terran is the race that really, really wants to control the entire map. It allows mining out the entire map, which bolsters your income and also means that if the game goes long, your enemy will be forced to attack into you in order to claim a base, and it will be significantly depleted even if they succeed.

A huge investment would be 30 SCVs, 2 Refineries, Missile Turrets, an adjoining PF...

Relative to that investment, a simple CC+OC is a pretty slim investment.

Also, the real gem of this strategy is in its ability to basically snipe an expansion. If you can hold an expansion for 90 seconds, you can ninja a round of mules (or two, energy permitting) for quick, boosted income. You don't lose 20-30 workers if/when the expo gets hit either.

ABCSFirebird

Germany90 Posts

December 03 2010 09:36 GMT

#255

Exactly right. I already did the calculations on page 3 and stated that this mass OC is only cost effective when compared with more than 16 SCVs on the typical 8 mineral patches. But of course there is some use to it, when a terran has a very immobile army or when he reaches supply limit.

AntiGrav1ty

Germany2310 Posts

December 03 2010 09:41 GMT

#256

Aren't you completely ignoring build time and the fact that you have to save up freakin 400 minerals every time. That is a huge amount early game.

100 Seconds + 35 for the OC + 90 Seconds until it has reached the break-even point assuming your "supply-adjusted" costs are correct which I doubt anyways. You lose an scv mining for 100 Seconds compared to 30 seconds and you must have saved up 400 / 550 minerals.

Ur right in the middle of a fight and you have 2 factories and 3 barracks and need supply for the next round of units. 2 Tanks 3 Marauders = 12 supply.
Either you chose 30 Seconds/ 200 minerals for 2 supply depots
or you get 2 OCs in 135 Seconds, at least 800 minerals at once + the minerals that you need for all your units and a huge economical disadvantage until 180 seconds after that. That is a freakin long time.

PrinceXizor

United States17713 Posts

December 03 2010 09:44 GMT

#257

On December 03 2010 18:01 ledarsi wrote:

It seems terran is the race that really, really wants to control the entire map. It allows mining out the entire map, which bolsters your income and also means that if the game goes long, your enemy will be forced to attack into you in order to claim a base, and it will be significantly depleted even if they succeed.

Terran? acting like humans? using all the natural resources up before moving on to the next world? no way!!! hahah. seriously yeah Terrans with many expos are scary. very very scary. too bad they seem to like 1-2 basing too much.

Mr_Kzimir

France268 Posts

December 03 2010 10:16 GMT

#258

The more I read these thread , the more I think we can even use mule abuse to deplete oppenents expansions while turtling like a bastard

DamageInq

United States283 Posts

December 03 2010 10:39 GMT

#259

Two things that are factored in here are

-Amount of time the SCV isn't mining minerals while building (Command Center take over 3x longer to build)
-Having to spending the minerals earlier for a payout that comes later

The second one being the biggest. Most Terrans build their first depot at 10 supply, which would obviously be impossible with a CC because you'd have to start it 70 seconds earlier (difference in build time for CC and Depot). An SCV takes 17 seconds to build. You run into this same wall with the second and third depots too. If you adjust a build around this you can squeeze it in, you can actually stop building SCVs to get the CC out earlier, but that takes away a lot of the benefit.

Lastly, it takes 135 seconds to build an orbital command. You need a very efficient and creative build to be able to wait the time for the OC to come and start paying off.

I'd really like to see time and though put into actual builds for each matchup, and would love to see this work. Honestly though... I think it's just theorycraft and nothing more. We'll see.