EPT[G] Synystyr's TvP Anti Colossus Build - Page 19
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StuartLove
Germany267 Posts
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Mowr
Sweden791 Posts
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Shado.
United States187 Posts
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Synystyr
United States1446 Posts
On March 19 2011 12:31 jdseemoreglass wrote: I just had to lol when I saw that 6/18 of these posts on this page were made by Synystyr, no offense. At least you are keeping this thread alive and up to date. I've been trying to learn terran a bit recently so this will probably help me, thanks. Haha well I like to answer the questions that people have and help out where I can  I find this build is still relevant and am a firm believer that this style of play WILL become a large part of the TvP metagame. If you have any problems, this is the place to get them remedied ^_^. Good luck!On March 19 2011 18:06 Shado. wrote: I'm actually surprised how strong banshees are, I find that I 1a most protoss I face now haha.. I think the key is to be effective in how you harass and getting your pdd in the right spots. If you ever feel uncomfortable moving out, just drop a pdd and harass with 5+ banshees, it's ridiculous haha. Heh, I wish I had the APM to harass on multiple fronts while keeping my macro up >_> That's one of the most powerful aspects of massing Air. You're able to abuse lack of mobility and detection and destroy your opponent's econ. Good stuff :D On March 19 2011 18:33 StuartLove wrote: korean 4 gate baby <3 Definitely the worst 4 Gate choice against this build....yeah.... On March 19 2011 21:06 Mowr wrote: The thor will target the observer. I played with this build yesterday and checked the replay and the a-moved thor switched from ground to shoot the observer when it came close enough. This is AWESOME! Thank you for checking on this! Actually super important Will keep that in mind, thanks again! :D | ||
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MaFFGeeK
United States47 Posts
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jalostaja
Finland1 Post
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/152370-1v1-terran-protoss-backwater-gulch http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/152365-1v1-terran-protoss-metalopolis | ||
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Shado.
United States187 Posts
Couple thoughts for discussion: 1. When to get upgrades and which ones to get? 2. How do you guys feel about getting an additional Raven? 3. How about Medivacs? 4. Banshees are obviously a part of your late game army but assuming you transition into late game, what is the ideal army composition that you want? Obviously you want Thors if it AA's observers, however do you think Marine/Thor/Banshee will be the ideal unit comp? | ||
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Synystyr
United States1446 Posts
On March 20 2011 16:04 MaFFGeeK wrote: I just tried this build today for the first time, and I'm already beating top diamonds with it. (I'm a high plat Terran). Great way to deal with Colossi! Thanks a bunch! No problem! Always good to hear that the build works well for others On March 21 2011 02:22 jalostaja wrote: i'v got few replays where i'm against protoss in mid diamond and i use this build. I found that this build is a BLAST against protoss that has never seen it before. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/152370-1v1-terran-protoss-backwater-gulch http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/152365-1v1-terran-protoss-metalopolis Awesome! Will definitely check these out after I get out of work today Cheers!On March 21 2011 07:36 Shado. wrote: I've been using this exclusively at Master's level and I'm starting to really streamline the build. Couple thoughts for discussion: 1. When to get upgrades and which ones to get? 2. How do you guys feel about getting an additional Raven? 3. How about Medivacs? 4. Banshees are obviously a part of your late game army but assuming you transition into late game, what is the ideal army composition that you want? Obviously you want Thors if it AA's observers, however do you think Marine/Thor/Banshee will be the ideal unit comp? 1. It depends which BO you use. If you 2 Rax 3 Bunker expand, I've found it impossible to spend your gas on upgrades at all until you take a third. If you happen to slip on macro and find spare gas, I would go for Combat Shields and Ship Plating as the two upgrade priorities. Ship armor is going to be your best friend when you transition into BCs, and Combat Shields is better than Stim because Marines are only meatshields and it's better to have more health, rather than cut more of their HP away to only die in a couple shots from Colossi. If you 2 Rax Stim Expand, then you'll have a bit more free gas since you don't go Armory+Thor. I'd grab Combat Shields after Stim and start an Armory for Ship Plating once you have the resources to. Engineering Bay upgrades really aren't too important, but I would go Armor over Weapons here because survivability is the most useful thing to have for your bio. 2. Again, gas constraints make it hard to really deviate too too much. A second Raven might not hurt that much however. Extra PDDs are always nice, but I suppose you have to find a proper timing window to get it out. You don't want to cut a Banshee for a Raven too early because you'll need the Banshees ASAP to defend any pushes. However, if you get your 2nd Raven too late, it won't have enough energy to be useful by the time you push. Will have to experiment with that! 3. Medivacs are useless in this build, simply because marines die too fast, they cut into Banshee production and they are just another unnecessary gas sink. 4. Early game - Marine + Bunker or Marine + Marauder. Midgame - Thor/Marine/Banshee/Raven or Marine/Marauder/Banshee/Raven Lategame - BC/Viking/Banshee with Marines sprinkled in. You want a full transition into Air as soon you get your third base up. Vikings and BCs will be your AA, while Banshees do the brunt of your ground damage. BCs are excellent at tanking damage and drawing fire away from your other units, and also can take out high priority units like Void Rays or Carriers quickly. Vikings will also help tank against Phoenix damage and you can snipe observers just as well with them. If your Raven is still alive, then that is huge and you can use it continuously for detection and PDDs. However, if it dies, remember that it is a 200 gas investment to get another and may not be as beneficial as funding another BC or two Banshees. | ||
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rebotfc
United Kingdom144 Posts
P pushes with 1 Collosus, 5 zealots 7 stalkers and 2 sentries against T's 5-7 Maurader, 16 marines with stim and concussive shells I'm only gold so i think i'm really messing up the battle micro but that collosus really messes things up. Don't think i'm that far behind on unit count as im constantly making the mauraders / marines. Here is a reply: http://www.mediafire.com/?9t1u24e535z8bdy Any suggestions about how I can do this more smoothly? | ||
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Trakky
95 Posts
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Shado.
United States187 Posts
On March 22 2011 10:14 Trakky wrote: Do you think it's a good idea to immediately research yamato cannon (then energy upgrade) right when fusion core finishes and you start to get BCs out? Btw, I have spent a long long time experimenting air builds and I would like to ask what you think about marauders + hellions + mass air. Marauders deal with stalkers quite well and are way more tanky than marines. Hellions do wonders against zealots and in an amount of 7 or more hellions, they are even cost effective against stalkers and in a big deathball vs deathball, the splash is really good (and I love to do BF hellion drops) and hellions are a huge mineral sink that are meatshields. Then ofcourse banshees take care of the rest and I usually throw down fusion core when I get my 3rd base and get ONE blind BC out incase they have any pheonixes out and 1 BC can tank a lot of phx atks (and I think BC has an atk priority higher than banshees/vikings against phx, but I may be wrong). I open with 1rax concusive FE then add in one more rax, getting stim before factory and researching BF right away while pumping out hellions from 1 fact and getting starport. When 1st medivac comes out, you'll have exactly 4 hellions and BF will finish just in time for a drop (I usually do massive damage with this drop). Then I throw down 1 more port getting raven on the 1st starport (stealing tech lab from the fact that researched Blue flame)and put reactor on 2nd starport to have the option of pumping dual vikings out incase they already switch tech to phx (before, I lost to phx tech switch at this moment because I didn't have a reactor port). While 2nd port is building, you'll have a lot of minerals and so it's a great time to expand (around 85 food) then I throw down 2 more ports (so 2rax + 1 fact + 4 ports). When my 3rd is up, I throw down fusion core and get armor upgrade, at this moment, I get reactor on my factory because of excess minerals and add tech lab to the 2nd rax to only pump out marauders because rines at this point are useless. Having such a gas heavy strat, I have excess minerals and I just keep making CCs one after one (after my 3rd is up and running) to turn into OCs so I can sacrifice SCVs later on to free up supply if game gets to that long (the first CC gets made into PF though for my 4th). Everytime after a battle, I would have like, nothing on ground cuz my rauders and hellions would mostly all die but I would have all my air units left. This is great because when you have your 3rd up and running for a while, you'll notice that you won't be able to have many air units while constantly pumping out 2rax rauders and reactor fact hellions so after the 1st battle with air units surviving and all ground dies, you'll be able to remax with air units to have a great ratio (of course you would still pump out rauders and hellions). I have tried thor + air but I don't like the immobility of thors and on big maps, I like to do pokes with banshees and hellions and drops because hellions are just so dam cost effective. I leave about 6 or so hellions by their base and if they move out to atk me,I'll just run in with my hellions to kill probes which can stall quite a bit of time cuz hellions are so fast. By the way, the 2nd port becomes a reactor to defend against any phx switch and if you DO NOT see any phx while reactor is already done on 2nd port, then just make 4 medivacs because you have been pumping out bio from 2 rax since the beginning of the game and you'll have a sizeable bio army (don't go to 6 medivacs, 4 is good enough to replace destroyed dropships and some healing for the bio army that will soon all die to the first battle anyway) and after 4 medivacs are out and you still don't see any phx, then just let the reactor port go idle while pumping out banshees/BCs from 3 other ports. This strat can defend against 2 gate robo, blink stalkers, 4gate, 2 base colli all in, DTs (because I just get a blind ebay->1 turret when I expand anyway to my natural, I always do this in all my TvP strats). I am still debating if i should stim my bio army or not in a maxed army battle because they have no upgrades and I think they're better for tanking than having reduced HP to do a bit more dmg that won't really matter anyway. The opening is basically 1 rax FE and phx opening will do quite a bit of dmg like against any other T openings. 2.7k masters (haven't been laddering much because I've been spending so much time theorycrafting). Also, I talked to you once ingame. Not to be rude, but you have to separate this into paragraphs, I got 1/3rd of the way through and my eyes glazed over a bit... | ||
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Trakky
95 Posts
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Synystyr
United States1446 Posts
On March 22 2011 08:58 rebotfc wrote: Hi been trying this build for the first time today but i'm finding i'm getting rolled by a push at 10 minutes. P pushes with 1 Collosus, 5 zealots 7 stalkers and 2 sentries against T's 5-7 Maurader, 16 marines with stim and concussive shells I'm only gold so i think i'm really messing up the battle micro but that collosus really messes things up. Don't think i'm that far behind on unit count as im constantly making the mauraders / marines. Here is a reply: http://www.mediafire.com/?9t1u24e535z8bdy Any suggestions about how I can do this more smoothly? Will let you know when I get back from work. I'm guessing it's a macro issue...no offense, but gold level macro is probably something that is holding you back at the moment. You should have at least 1 Banshee with cloak and a Raven with a PDD at that point. Regardless, I will look into it On March 22 2011 10:14 Trakky wrote: + Show Spoiler + Do you think it's a good idea to immediately research yamato cannon (then energy upgrade) right when fusion core finishes and you start to get BCs out? Btw, I have spent a long long time experimenting air builds and I would like to ask what you think about marauders + hellions + mass air. Marauders deal with stalkers quite well and are way more tanky than marines. Hellions do wonders against zealots and in an amount of 7 or more hellions, they are even cost effective against stalkers and in a big deathball vs deathball, the splash is really good (and I love to do BF hellion drops) and hellions are a huge mineral sink that are meatshields. Then ofcourse banshees take care of the rest and I usually throw down fusion core when I get my 3rd base and get ONE blind BC out incase they have any pheonixes out and 1 BC can tank a lot of phx atks (and I think BC has an atk priority higher than banshees/vikings against phx, but I may be wrong). I open with 1rax concusive FE then add in one more rax, getting stim before factory and researching BF right away while pumping out hellions from 1 fact and getting starport. When 1st medivac comes out, you'll have exactly 4 hellions and BF will finish just in time for a drop (I usually do massive damage with this drop). Then I throw down 1 more port getting raven on the 1st starport (stealing tech lab from the fact that researched Blue flame)and put reactor on 2nd starport to have the option of pumping dual vikings out incase they already switch tech to phx (before, I lost to phx tech switch at this moment because I didn't have a reactor port). While 2nd port is building, you'll have a lot of minerals and so it's a great time to expand (around 85 food) then I throw down 2 more ports (so 2rax + 1 fact + 4 ports). When my 3rd is up, I throw down fusion core and get armor upgrade, at this moment, I get reactor on my factory because of excess minerals and add tech lab to the 2nd rax to only pump out marauders because rines at this point are useless. Having such a gas heavy strat, I have excess minerals and I just keep making CCs one after one (after my 3rd is up and running) to turn into OCs so I can sacrifice SCVs later on to free up supply if game gets to that long (the first CC gets made into PF though for my 4th). Everytime after a battle, I would have like, nothing on ground cuz my rauders and hellions would mostly all die but I would have all my air units left. This is great because when you have your 3rd up and running for a while, you'll notice that you won't be able to have many air units while constantly pumping out 2rax rauders and reactor fact hellions so after the 1st battle with air units surviving and all ground dies, you'll be able to remax with air units to have a great ratio (of course you would still pump out rauders and hellions). I have tried thor + air but I don't like the immobility of thors and on big maps, I like to do pokes with banshees and hellions and drops because hellions are just so dam cost effective. I leave about 6 or so hellions by their base and if they move out to atk me,I'll just run in with my hellions to kill probes which can stall quite a bit of time cuz hellions are so fast. By the way, the 2nd port becomes a reactor to defend against any phx switch and if you DO NOT see any phx while reactor is already done on 2nd port, then just make 4 medivacs because you have been pumping out bio from 2 rax since the beginning of the game and you'll have a sizeable bio army (don't go to 6 medivacs, 4 is good enough to replace destroyed dropships and some healing for the bio army that will soon all die to the first battle anyway) and after 4 medivacs are out and you still don't see any phx, then just let the reactor port go idle while pumping out banshees/BCs from 3 other ports. This strat can defend against 2 gate robo, blink stalkers, 4gate, 2 base colli all in, DTs (because I just get a blind ebay->1 turret when I expand anyway to my natural, I always do this in all my TvP strats). I am still debating if i should stim my bio army or not in a maxed army battle because they have no upgrades and I think they're better for tanking than having reduced HP to do a bit more dmg that won't really matter anyway. The opening is basically 1 rax FE and phx opening will do quite a bit of dmg like against any other T openings. 2.7k masters (haven't been laddering much because I've been spending so much time theorycrafting). Also, I talked to you once ingame. Holy wall of text. Please space out your post next time...=X Yamato after BC production starts isn't absolutely necessary, since you won't be able to use it right away. I haven't experimented with the perfect timing yet. It's probably better to go energy before Yamato in all honesty. Marauders and hellions don't synergize well with this composition because Marauders eat too much gas in the long term and cuts into Banshee production. Banshees trade perfectly well with Stalkers. Hellions are a good mineral dump, but Banshees again serve the same role as hellions because they can kill zealots just as quickly. The reason Marines are the mineral dump is because they serve as your AA and early defense units before you reach critical mass. You also expand late and make a second starport before making the rest. This build is not 1 base. You need that fast expand to support your production. Your style is more like iEchoic's 1-1-2 which is fine, but not optimal for this particular build. The reason I don't like getting a second starport so early and not build the other two at the same time with it is because if the Protoss scouts two starports early, it illicits an earlier Phoenix response and that can really mess things up. One starport does not have the same effect. Better to deny scouting first and then throw down 3 more starports afterwards. Against Phoenix, reactored vikings aren't necessary. You'll have marines to defend your bases and with spare minerals you can turret up easily. A quick BC transition with a couple Vikings sprinkled in will deal with the Phoenix just fine for your push. No need to make it difficult to transition back to Banshees. 4 Starports = 2 Starports with Reactors ^.- | ||
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Trakky
95 Posts
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Synystyr
United States1446 Posts
On March 22 2011 22:17 Trakky wrote: I think the wall of text must have confused you. I go for 1rax FE. The 2nd starport goes down before the 3rd base, so it's not like iEchoic's 1-1-2 at all. I feel like banshees waste a lot of time killing the tanky zealots instead of focusing on big units or stalkers, that's why I get hellions to kill the zealots fast. It's quite bad for your banshees to attack zealots while stalkers are attacking your banshees. Also, I do get marines for early AA and defense (it's 2 rax remember?). I get my 4 starports way later than yours because of BF hellions, meaning that I need my 2nd port to be reactored to deal with any phx because I go for rauders and hellions meaning I barely have any AA mid game (that's why I might need dual vikings out) and if there's not anyway, I'll use it to get medivacs out anyway since I'll have a mid-sized bio army and can use medivacs for drops. Sorry, I honestly did get very lost in the wall of text =[ Can you blame me? Banshees will never focus Zealots unless you focus fire with them. Stalker threat priority is higher because the Banshees are actually getting attacked by them. If your style works for you, then by all means keep doing it! I'd love to see a couple replays I just don't like medivacs + marauders because they cut into Banshee production. I don't want to go halfway in between with Air and Bio because it's just a mix I don't find to be strong enough. You either have to pick one or the other IMHO. Hellions kill zealots quickly, but so do banshees so I just feel like it's overkill. Hellion drops are great though. One of the most powerful economic killers for sure. I just don't prefer them, that's all! | ||
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SoftSoap
United States170 Posts
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Synystyr
United States1446 Posts
On March 22 2011 22:29 SoftSoap wrote: It's very important to not do stupid flowers. I've played terrans or observed games where terrans make a flower, and one storm is super effective. Overall, watch out for storms, and this build is deadly! http://www.mediafire.com/?3c4k8a6tlca0ph4 (how NOT to dodge storm and throw a win away) ;_; My storm dodging has gotten much, much better since....hehe thanks for the practice games => | ||
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Trakky
95 Posts
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Trakky
95 Posts
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Trakky
95 Posts
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