On March 08 2011 04:55 statikg wrote: What level are you playing at these days Synstyr? I keep switching back to bio when I get frustrated with these different TvP builds but I'm getting pretty psyched for it again with the upcoming BC buff. I really like the idea of using iechoics opener and transitioning into this build from there, it sets up your infrastructure pretty nicely and I feel like my major problem with this build (2900 masters) is constantly getting owned by the 1 base protoss push in the early game. I have even been having trouble with the 6gate push which is getting super popular right now especially with how open all the naturals are these days.
I recall winning alot of games with iechoics build back in the fall until it got so popular it was standard for toss to leave units in their mineral lines. I think it would definitely be a much safer transition but it would not be as good if the protoss decides to pull a FE on you =/
PS, I still feel that you are overdoing it with 4 starports on 2base, I think that 3 or even 2 would be more manageable considering that on 2 bases you only bring in 400gas/min = 1thor/2banshee so unless your not using gas for anything else at all you can't afford to use all your starports all the time.
PPS, in your transitions tab you state that 3 base = 4SP BCs - it actually is 3 base = 3SP BCs.
I'm playing at about ~3k masters level at the moment. I'm still finding tremendous success with this build. BC speed buff is HUUUUGE. I can't wait for it to be implemented With bunkers, 1 base pushes have never been an issue, so I think with a 2 Rax Stim expand + Bunkers, it should be a pretty solid way of opening with a fast expansion vs Protoss.
iEchoic's build was really powerful when it first came out because it had a huge element of surprise. It's lost a little potency now, but hellion drops are going to do damage regardless, and the quick banshees really punish any lack of detection. I still use the build in BoX situations with good results and find that it's really easy to transition into 4 Port from there.
In response to your PS, I'm not constantly producing Thors. They are not a huge part of my army, but are used more for defense while I tech, observer sniping and relaying false scouting information to my opponent. I need the 4 starports in order to push out a critical mass of banshees quickly, and to easily get a large number of vikings out if I need to. I can perfectly afford 4 starports + minor gas expenditure on upgrades on 2 bases.
In response to your PPS, you can afford ~1.3 BCs per base, so 1.3 x 3 is about 4. The reason you can't always make 4 BCs at once is because you really need to bank a lot of money (1600-1200) in order to create them simultaneously. However, you can afford it.
On March 08 2011 05:27 Senorcuidado wrote: I love any build that doesn't have to worry about losing the whole game to 6 sentries spamming forcefields, which is pretty much every TvP on Xelnaga Caverns if I decide to go bio. I've been having some really fun games with this style against robo builds but more and more Protoss are rushing right for high Templars lately. Feedback and storm do a lot of damage to banshees, and even though I can micro and return for repairs it doesn't take a lot to repel my harrassment and give him more time to build up. Of course all my marines aren't too great against the storms either. I suppose sometimes I might catch him without detection but usually the robo is up just in time. How do you handle this, or do you just stop banshee production at that point?
I suppose going for a contain, taking an early third, and switching battlecruisers could do well on that case, but a strong two base timing attack with stalkers and high temps is pretty scary. That's what killed me before the cruisers were online but I was pretty late with the transition. This whole situation will be waaay easier when amulet is gone.
As for the robo builds, the common reaction to marine/banshee has been Colossus/Phoenix, which I responded to by treating my marines like zerglings and rushing to 3/3. So you think collosus counters marines? I have a replay that proves otherwise . Obviously the bc switch is a more reliable response but if you can constantly pull their army out of position and keep the colossus numbers low by trading often, it is tons of fun.
I really haven't had too much trouble with templars. Just spread your banshees and storm is easily mitigated. HT rushes can be abused by sending your first banshee to do harass, which is what I love to do. It's very delayed, so Protoss is almost always unprepared for it and I normally get 10+ kills.
Don't tech into BCs unless you are pushing out, so that you can tech safely OR you have turtled in nicely and can defend any pushes while getting the BCs out. You are very vulnerable until you have 3-4 BCs out.
I've actually won a bunch of games without ever even research Stim or any other bio upgrades. All my gas gets sunk into Starport tech + upgrades and I can never find 100 spare gas to put into stim as I need it for something else. Combat shields is actually probably better than stim because it gives your marines more longevity, whereas Stim cuts it down dramatically, making it really easy for Colossi to destroy.
I feel like im doing something wrong with this build :/ I only loose when i face collosus based armys.
I dont really know the exact timings of when to get +3stargates or how many/when to get thors. Also when to attack. They have soo many collosi when i push.
But i think the main part is how i micro. My marines gets melted instantly and then there's just thors vs huge army. I fail at sniping obs every time. My marines just die before even reaching them. Then all my banshees die. sadpanda):
I would appriciate some help with that stuff C: (btw I'm just plat(stuck))
On March 09 2011 05:22 kusu wrote: I feel like im doing something wrong with this build :/ I only loose when i face collosus based armys.
I dont really know the exact timings of when to get +3stargates or how many/when to get thors. Also when to attack. They have soo many collosi when i push.
But i think the main part is how i micro. My marines gets melted instantly and then there's just thors vs huge army. I fail at sniping obs every time. My marines just die before even reaching them. Then all my banshees die. sadpanda):
I would appriciate some help with that stuff C: (btw I'm just plat(stuck))
Thanks !
I'll try my best to help you....
You get Thors out as soon as possible. Factory @ 100 Gas -> Tech Lab + Armory -> Thor x2. No delays, just get it as soon as you've gotten the gas after you expand.
For the Starports, you get them as soon as you get your Raven out and kill your opponent's observer, or loop around the base and double check that there isn't one to begin with. Then you put your starports down in the hardest to scout location of your base and position your Raven+army in a spot where an observer is most likely going to fly over to check that position. You do this because you want to deny scouting of your starports so that your opponent doesn't have enough time to get Stargate tech out.
When you push out, have all your units follow your slowest moving unit, Thor in this case. This will make it so everything engages at once. Your marines are meant to die. If you can snipe an observer or soak any stalker damage with them, you're using them correctly. Banshees need to cloak ASAP, Thors need to focus obs down and Raven should PDD twice and move out of stalker fire. Check out the "How to Engage" tab and post a replay!
On March 09 2011 05:27 Lomo wrote: I lost vs a phoenix builds why ? xD
Very descriptive....post a replay please.
My guess is because you didn't scout his phoenix and didn't get vikings. Probably also because you built more than 1 starport before you were able to deny scouting and Protoss reacted properly by going Stargate tech.
Hey so I was thinking more thors because thors > vikings for fighting phenoix, but is this not what you do because the thors die too quickly to kill the phenoix?
Also will the thors prioritize obs if they are in range?
Do you have any higher level replays to post? I've watched 4-5 and I've been suprised to see that although the toss often does scout the starports they almost never choose even close to the correct counter (phoenix, sentry, collosus, zealot). In pretty much all the games I watched your opponents choose to go things such as mass stalker, void ray, immortal, basically all the wrong things to go (voids are better once you get to BC of course).
QXC lost to white-ra with roughly your strategy yesterday in the IEM, I think he could have won though it was a good close game. (Then he does it again and gets completely owned when white ra is expecting it)
Heres some youtube links, they arent in english tho
On March 09 2011 06:47 statikg wrote: Hey so I was thinking more thors because thors > vikings for fighting phenoix, but is this not what you do because the thors die too quickly to kill the phenoix?
Also will the thors prioritize obs if they are in range?
Do you have any higher level replays to post? I've watched 4-5 and I've been suprised to see that although the toss often does scout the starports they almost never choose even close to the correct counter (phoenix, sentry, collosus, zealot). In pretty much all the games I watched your opponents choose to go things such as mass stalker, void ray, immortal, basically all the wrong things to go (voids are better once you get to BC of course).
I don't like getting more Thors because they are very very susceptible to dying to ground forces quickly. Their role is to force immortals, snipe observers and do as much tanking and damage as they can before they die. Phoenix are better dealt with using Vikings, rather than Thors with this build. A mech based army would benefit more from Thors, but not an air based one.
I also have a few replays I will be uploading today, which include new maps, defending 3 Gate Immortals pushes and how not to storm dodge xD. Much higher level than the previous ones!
On March 10 2011 09:46 statikg wrote: QXC lost to white-ra with roughly your strategy yesterday in the IEM, I think he could have won though it was a good close game. (Then he does it again and gets completely owned when white ra is expecting it)
Heres some youtube links, they arent in english tho + Show Spoiler +
QXC's build is similar in some ways to mine, such as the heavy Air based play style with a heavy focus on banshees, however it was more of a 1-1-2 style opener. I think it played out well and really shows that Air can compete in the late game, but thought it was executed poorly.
For an air build to work successfully, you really need that fast expand so you can crank out a large number of Air units quickly. QXC opted for a more traditional banshee first harass and then stayed on the Air based play. I like to deny scouting first, and then go air to have more of an element of surprise. Both styles work, but I believe mine to be more optimal because it doesn't give the Protoss as much time to get proper AA out. WhiteRa saw banshees from the start and played with that knowledge and was able to deflect his attacks easily.
But the most important thing to take away from these VODs is that Air is extremely powerful against Protoss.. I bet if QXC refined his build and played using Air more, he would be much, much harder to beat the next time around. A step towards the metagame change I know will come eventually!
I've been using bio into pure mech and this built lately and I maybe lost 3 of 20 games . I feel like going air is much more competitive to the protoss late game army. And if they remove the amulet upgrade soon, this will be killer! My losses were all due to storms that killed all my banshees by surprise or allins.
The best part about this built is the BC transition, though. Always fun to stomp them with 3/3 upgrades. Even void rays melt to yamato.
So, I hope more pros will go air style in the future, as I find it much more entertaining!
Looking forward to those new replays you'll upload
With this build, I have 95% win rate against Protoss and recently won the Giantbomb Community Tournament with heavy usage of this build
I can see why you have such a ridiculous win rate. I've recently started using your build and I have lost AT MOST 1 game over the pass few days, beating masters, diamonds, etc. Thanks for sharing, and yeah, looking forward to the new replays.
This is a very powerful build. Anyone who encounters it for the first time will be caught with they're pants down. Im just worried what will become of toss if they do carry through with the amulet removal. This will be the demolisher build. Sure it makes bio better lategame but im pretty sure it will be a bigger source of a lot more imbalance. BTW White-Ra is pretty awful with his storms :3
On March 09 2011 06:47 statikg wrote: Hey so I was thinking more thors because thors > vikings for fighting phenoix, but is this not what you do because the thors die too quickly to kill the phenoix?
Also will the thors prioritize obs if they are in range?
Do you have any higher level replays to post? I've watched 4-5 and I've been suprised to see that although the toss often does scout the starports they almost never choose even close to the correct counter (phoenix, sentry, collosus, zealot). In pretty much all the games I watched your opponents choose to go things such as mass stalker, void ray, immortal, basically all the wrong things to go (voids are better once you get to BC of course).
I don't like getting more Thors because they are very very susceptible to dying to ground forces quickly. Their role is to force immortals, snipe observers and do as much tanking and damage as they can before they die. Phoenix are better dealt with using Vikings, rather than Thors with this build. A mech based army would benefit more from Thors, but not an air based one.
I also have a few replays I will be uploading today, which include new maps, defending 3 Gate Immortals pushes and how not to storm dodge xD. Much higher level than the previous ones!
On March 10 2011 09:46 statikg wrote: QXC lost to white-ra with roughly your strategy yesterday in the IEM, I think he could have won though it was a good close game. (Then he does it again and gets completely owned when white ra is expecting it)
Heres some youtube links, they arent in english tho + Show Spoiler +
QXC's build is similar in some ways to mine, such as the heavy Air based play style with a heavy focus on banshees, however it was more of a 1-1-2 style opener. I think it played out well and really shows that Air can compete in the late game, but thought it was executed poorly.
For an air build to work successfully, you really need that fast expand so you can crank out a large number of Air units quickly. QXC opted for a more traditional banshee first harass and then stayed on the Air based play. I like to deny scouting first, and then go air to have more of an element of surprise. Both styles work, but I believe mine to be more optimal because it doesn't give the Protoss as much time to get proper AA out. WhiteRa saw banshees from the start and played with that knowledge and was able to deflect his attacks easily.
But the most important thing to take away from these VODs is that Air is extremely powerful against Protoss.. I bet if QXC refined his build and played using Air more, he would be much, much harder to beat the next time around. A step towards the metagame change I know will come eventually!
I downloaded one of the QXC replay packs and the guy literally gets banshees every single game so I can't imagine him having "more practice with air"... plus he probably has the best micro around. Regardless this thread makes me wonder if you could just get like 6 vikings and a bunch of banshees late game,scan, kill the observers, and cloak 10 banshees... what could a toss do? Off the top of my head....... I can't really think of anything besides putting cannons EVERYWHERE
On March 11 2011 00:20 Synystyr wrote: I also have a few replays I will be uploading today, which include new maps, defending 3 Gate Immortals pushes and how not to storm dodge xD. Much higher level than the previous ones!
That would be really great! Actually, my first post on TL. Yay! Anyways, I'm ranked in plat right now, but playing mostly vs >2k diamonds atm, cuz of my higher MMR and lack of people playing on the times i play, i guess. I've had lots of succes with this build before, but when i started playing vs diamonds, it started getting out of hand, it seems like i'm losing to every 1-base play, be it a 2-immortal push or a sentry heavy 1-2 base 9-10 min push with FFs on bunkers or 1 base colossus. The bunkers get melted by immortal even with repairs before i can really do any damage or the colossus with range just destroy them. May be my timings are off or something. But i really would like some replays vs this play, since like every game i play is like that for some reason. Also any tips would be welcome.
And another question, with the new map pool, i usually go with the stim expand build, which lacks the thor. Its much harder to snipe the observer vs a colossi-heavy army with only infantry, and they have another one lots of times. So would you prefer to sac the whole army to get the obs or just forget about it and get as much damage as possible? I really can't make the choice sometimes. Also, does the thor automatically hit the observer if its in range or you need to tell him to (if theres no other air, ofc.)? I actually didn't pay much attention to that since i don't use thor in my play all too much aside from TvZ. Thanks!
Hey guys! Sorry I haven't updated the thread in a bit...been very busy with PAX East. I actually got to use this build in a live showmatch at the convention with a nice large audience! So cool Thanks a crap ton to FoBuLouS for being an awesome team mate and recording my game play.
I'll upload replays tonight as soon as I finish with work. Thanks again and keep the feedback coming!
On March 09 2011 06:47 statikg wrote: Hey so I was thinking more thors because thors > vikings for fighting phenoix, but is this not what you do because the thors die too quickly to kill the phenoix?
Also will the thors prioritize obs if they are in range?
Do you have any higher level replays to post? I've watched 4-5 and I've been suprised to see that although the toss often does scout the starports they almost never choose even close to the correct counter (phoenix, sentry, collosus, zealot). In pretty much all the games I watched your opponents choose to go things such as mass stalker, void ray, immortal, basically all the wrong things to go (voids are better once you get to BC of course).
I don't like getting more Thors because they are very very susceptible to dying to ground forces quickly. Their role is to force immortals, snipe observers and do as much tanking and damage as they can before they die. Phoenix are better dealt with using Vikings, rather than Thors with this build. A mech based army would benefit more from Thors, but not an air based one.
I also have a few replays I will be uploading today, which include new maps, defending 3 Gate Immortals pushes and how not to storm dodge xD. Much higher level than the previous ones!
On March 10 2011 09:46 statikg wrote: QXC lost to white-ra with roughly your strategy yesterday in the IEM, I think he could have won though it was a good close game. (Then he does it again and gets completely owned when white ra is expecting it)
Heres some youtube links, they arent in english tho + Show Spoiler +
QXC's build is similar in some ways to mine, such as the heavy Air based play style with a heavy focus on banshees, however it was more of a 1-1-2 style opener. I think it played out well and really shows that Air can compete in the late game, but thought it was executed poorly.
For an air build to work successfully, you really need that fast expand so you can crank out a large number of Air units quickly. QXC opted for a more traditional banshee first harass and then stayed on the Air based play. I like to deny scouting first, and then go air to have more of an element of surprise. Both styles work, but I believe mine to be more optimal because it doesn't give the Protoss as much time to get proper AA out. WhiteRa saw banshees from the start and played with that knowledge and was able to deflect his attacks easily.
But the most important thing to take away from these VODs is that Air is extremely powerful against Protoss.. I bet if QXC refined his build and played using Air more, he would be much, much harder to beat the next time around. A step towards the metagame change I know will come eventually!
I downloaded one of the QXC replay packs and the guy literally gets banshees every single game so I can't imagine him having "more practice with air"... plus he probably has the best micro around. Regardless this thread makes me wonder if you could just get like 6 vikings and a bunch of banshees late game,scan, kill the observers, and cloak 10 banshees... what could a toss do? Off the top of my head....... I can't really think of anything besides putting cannons EVERYWHERE
Yes, if you do manage to snipe any means of detection, your banshees are pretty much unstoppable. That's why I like to use Thors to snipe them. Vikings are good but I've found I can use marines to do the job just as well and that means more banshees in my army :D
I didn't mean any disrespect to QXC, he's a great player and I emulate a lot of what he does into my own play style. I just think he could do air play in an more optimal manner, that's all ^.-
On March 11 2011 00:20 Synystyr wrote: I also have a few replays I will be uploading today, which include new maps, defending 3 Gate Immortals pushes and how not to storm dodge xD. Much higher level than the previous ones!
That would be really great! Actually, my first post on TL. Yay! Anyways, I'm ranked in plat right now, but playing mostly vs >2k diamonds atm, cuz of my higher MMR and lack of people playing on the times i play, i guess. I've had lots of succes with this build before, but when i started playing vs diamonds, it started getting out of hand, it seems like i'm losing to every 1-base play, be it a 2-immortal push or a sentry heavy 1-2 base 9-10 min push with FFs on bunkers or 1 base colossus. The bunkers get melted by immortal even with repairs before i can really do any damage or the colossus with range just destroy them. May be my timings are off or something. But i really would like some replays vs this play, since like every game i play is like that for some reason. Also any tips would be welcome.
And another question, with the new map pool, i usually go with the stim expand build, which lacks the thor. Its much harder to snipe the observer vs a colossi-heavy army with only infantry, and they have another one lots of times. So would you prefer to sac the whole army to get the obs or just forget about it and get as much damage as possible? I really can't make the choice sometimes. Also, does the thor automatically hit the observer if its in range or you need to tell him to (if theres no other air, ofc.)? I actually didn't pay much attention to that since i don't use thor in my play all too much aside from TvZ. Thanks!
Could you upload a replay or two so I can get a good feel for your execution? Immortal busts or super fast Colossi are the scariest to face, simply because they can blow through your bunkers very quickly. You need good scouting to see the push coming so you can prepare your SCVs to repair. If you are ready, it's very easy to stop. The attack comes after you Starport is up, so if you scout an early attack, go Banshee before Raven and with the mix of your bio, it should be enough to clean the attack up. Don't be afraid to pull SCVs to deal with the push, because an attack like this will put the Protoss extremely far behind as you FE'd while he did a 1 base timing push that is very much all-in.
To your second question, it is absolutely crucial to snipe the observer. I personally sac my entire ground army to kill it, simply because if I do, I win the battle. It is always worth it to kill the obs by any means. And I am not 100% sure on the threat priority of the observer vs Thor...sometimes it auto snipes it while other times I target fire. Will check and let you guys know!
UPDATE!! I've added a bunch of new replays for you guys. For those saying Templar tech beats this play, I've got a few replays to prove you wrong ^_^. My Immortal bust defense replays got corrupted somehow so I don't have those unfortunately . Also have replays showing how to defend a 2 Rax Expand and transition with this build.
I've also uploaded a couple of losses, one against a maphacker who got the proper unit composition to beat the push (even though I controlled terribly), and another where I epicfail against Storms >_>
Enjoy and leave any feedback here! Thanks!
On March 19 2011 11:35 LoCaD wrote: I think Avilo tried something like this against Socke but a worse Version with Proxy Starport and getting his Raven killed.
Socke owned him ofcourse but it does have some Resemblence
Can you get a replay to me? Or a link to a VOD? I'd love to check it out Thanks!
I'm actually surprised how strong banshees are, I find that I 1a most protoss I face now haha.. I think the key is to be effective in how you harass and getting your pdd in the right spots.
If you ever feel uncomfortable moving out, just drop a pdd and harass with 5+ banshees, it's ridiculous haha.
EPT
With bunkers, 1 base pushes have never been an issue, so I think with a 2 Rax Stim expand + Bunkers, it should be a pretty solid way of opening with a fast expansion vs Protoss.
sadpanda):
