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Will let you know when I get back from work. I'm guessing it's a macro issue...no offense, but gold level macro is probably something that is holding you back at the moment.
Yep i'm sure my macro is terrible in that game, not least due to learning a new build order.
That said I had a similar amount of units to your replay on metropolis at 10mins, only thing I was missing was the raven. I think I can get a banshee out if my macro was a little better. Do you think that might swing the battle?
Cheers for looking at it.
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On March 22 2011 23:28 Trakky wrote:
What do you think of getting tanks to defend against everything to be able to easily get starports out, even it it's quite a bit delayed. The problem when I tried using your strat is the timing window where if anything comes, I'll probably lose (before the 4 port produces any banshees) because all I have will be 1 raven that's barely got a pdd, and the rest are marines with like, 2 marauders mixed in. A good P will attack immediately when they see 4 ports going down and I really don't like doing the 3 bunker strat because of the new maps so I won't have any thor out to deny scouting obs. I don't even think the 3 bunkers make a tight wall anymore on any of the new maps.
You should throw down at least two bunkers at your natural if you're Stim expanding to help complement your early defenses while you are teching. That will help a lot with dealing with any kind of timing push.
Again, I really don't like to invest in too many other gas heavy units because it just delays the Air tech more and more. Bio works as well as tanks does for me.
And your bunker wall off doesn't have to be completely sealed off on maps you can use this on. Sure, the Protoss could still do a gutsy runby, but the narrowness of the path that they'd have to take is such that you can pick off the majority of units while he tries to circumvent the bunkers and you can just clean it all up by deploying the marines back out
Also, you can still deny scouting with constant raven/marine movement around your base. The thor based play is just more sturdy and can send misinformation to the Protoss, but is not the only way to kill observers.
On March 22 2011 23:54 Trakky wrote:
Also one more quick question, in your replay called TvP 2RaxExpand vs Void Rays, why did you go for thors even though you opened with 2rax conc first then stim then expo? Is it just because you had to spend a lot of minerals on turrets/ebay so you had excess gas that can be put into thors?
I felt behind because my push was pretty much hard countered by the Void Rays so I needed to turtle and get some beefy units out. With Stargate prevalent and playing someone who knows my style, I figured Thors would help a lot and I ended the game with a PDD timing push. Thor was pretty much out of the blue. I knew he was teching so the timing push was perfect to catch him when he wasn't ready 
On March 23 2011 00:15 rebotfc wrote:Show nested quote +Will let you know when I get back from work. I'm guessing it's a macro issue...no offense, but gold level macro is probably something that is holding you back at the moment. Yep i'm sure my macro is terrible in that game, not least due to learning a new build order. That said I had a similar amount of units to your replay on metropolis at 10mins, only thing I was missing was the raven. I think I can get a banshee out if my macro was a little better. Do you think that might swing the battle? Cheers for looking at it.
Np, You'll have an analysis in a few hours
1 Banshee does so much when defending, you have no idea 
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I just got a really good idea to fight this build. making a warp prism and then taking your first colossus and/or immortals and all of you gateway units directly into Ts main, it might work for the same reason that blink works . I am going to try it next time i ladder and see this build, if anybody else could try it and see how it goes it would be much appreciated. I don't think you can beat anything with HTs anymore so going allin like this might be the only option once you 2gate robo expand.
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Hmm, build seems a lot stronger now with the KA nerf. Before I was relying on warp-in templars to storm banshees, and even then whether I was about to die or not came down to Warp-in Storms. Might just 2base all-in when I see the ports going down, this build is too much of a bitch to handle late game without KA-Templars :S
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On March 22 2011 08:58 rebotfc wrote:Hi been trying this build for the first time today but i'm finding i'm getting rolled by a push at 10 minutes. P pushes with 1 Collosus, 5 zealots 7 stalkers and 2 sentries against T's 5-7 Maurader, 16 marines with stim and concussive shells I'm only gold so i think i'm really messing up the battle micro but that collosus really messes things up. Don't think i'm that far behind on unit count as im constantly making the mauraders / marines. Here is a reply: http://www.mediafire.com/?9t1u24e535z8bdyAny suggestions about how I can do this more smoothly?
Okay, I got a chance to look over your replay.
You lost because of macro. I'll point out a few things you can fix.
Your orbital was slightly late, better to get it at 15 supply as soon as your barracks finishes.
You didn't put guys on gas right away. You need to start collecting gas ASAP.
Research Stim the moment you hit 100 Gas. You need that ASAP as well to defend.
Once you expand, you need to get your factory immediately afterwards so you can get your Banshees out.
You were supply blocked multiple time and floating a lot of money. You can remedy this by getting extra production facilities, extra refineries and more depots.
Constant SCV production wasn't there. You need that to quickly saturate your two bases.
No scouting! You had no idea what Protoss was doing the whole time and were completely caught off guard by his 1 base colossus rush.
It was pretty much an accumulation of little mistakes that snowballed into a large deficit. If you had better macro, you would have had more units and the banshees to defend. Don't get disheartened, it was only your first time with the build. Keep practicing!
On March 23 2011 00:43 Gecko wrote:I just got a really good idea to fight this build. making a warp prism and then taking your first colossus and/or immortals and all of you gateway units directly into Ts main, it might work for the same reason that blink works . I am going to try it next time i ladder and see this build, if anybody else could try it and see how it goes it would be much appreciated. I don't think you can beat anything with HTs anymore so going allin like this might be the only option once you 2gate robo expand.
Yeah Warp Prism past the bunkers can be a real pain in the ass to deal with, but by the time you have your army + Prism, I should have a couple Thors, a Raven with 1 PDD and hopefully 1+ banshees along with my marines. Your attack is very much allin so if I can stop it (and it's possible with this unit combo), then it's pretty much a go ahead to the win. I think it comes down to micro and spotting the drop early at this point.
On March 23 2011 00:45 Dommk wrote:
Hmm, build seems a lot stronger now with the KA nerf. Before I was relying on warp-in templars to storm banshees, and even then whether I was about to die or not came down to Warp-in Storms. Might just 2base all-in when I see the ports going down, this build is too much of a bitch to handle late game without KA-Templars :S
YAY NO KA TEMPLARS! :D I've been able to really abuse timings pushes before too many storms build up now. Easy stuff :D
There's also a timing window after my first Banshee where I can hard tech switch to mass Thors if I scout a HT rush. I'd have only commited to one banshee and one starport so I can easily mass Thors instead and roll the Protoss because Storm doesn't hurt Thors enough :D
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Do you have any replays against 1 base attacks like 4 gate, 3 gate robo, etc? I've been having trouble using a 2 rax bunker defense when the P force fields my bunkers to block repairing.
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It would appear the replays have stopped working as of patch 1.3, at least for me. It opens SC2 but to a plain black screen. =(
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On March 23 2011 09:36 takkatakka wrote:
Do you have any replays against 1 base attacks like 4 gate, 3 gate robo, etc? I've been having trouble using a 2 rax bunker defense when the P force fields my bunkers to block repairing.
Unfortunately all my good ones got corrupted  I'll get more replays of this as soon as it happens though, for sure!
On March 23 2011 11:53 Doz wrote:
It would appear the replays have stopped working as of patch 1.3, at least for me. It opens SC2 but to a plain black screen. =(
It's because of the new version from the patch. You can still view them however. You need to download the replays and then add them to your Starcraft 2 Replays folder. You can do a search to find out exactly how to do that...I play on a Mac so I'm sure the folder pathing is different on a PC. You'll be able to load them in game afterwards however. Good luck!
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A question about build order 1, why don't just go 2rax FE constant marine production into 4port banshees right away and skip thors. Wouldn't this also work?
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On March 23 2011 16:31 Trakky wrote:
A question about build order 1, why don't just go 2rax FE constant marine production into 4port banshees right away and skip thors. Wouldn't this also work?
Because getting Thors does not delay the banshees, helps you defend early pushes and it helps you to kill observers in your base and when you push more efficiently.
By far the best aspect of going Thors however, is that it relays misinformation to the Protoss. When you kill the observer, all the Protoss will have seen is 1-2 Thors, mass marines and a Raven. This points to a PDD timing attack with Thor/Marine and will illicit a Zealot/Immortal response. You then go into 4 port Banshee play and completely catch the Protoss off guard with the wrong unit composition. GG!
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Is it possible to go 2rax expand, get combat shield instead and only mass marines (the 2rax stim poke is not that strong anymore cuz of the 30 second stim nerf), having CONSTANT marine production and getting delayed thors (compare to your build order #1) and then same strat to 4ports? Cuz I really don't feel like defending with 13 marines with no stim/shell for 9 mins is viable against good opponents. So I was thinking of having a safer early game with a little delayed thors/4ports. Just wondering what you think of this, and I'm sure you must have thought about it before.
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On March 23 2011 20:51 Trakky wrote:
Is it possible to go 2rax expand, get combat shield instead and only mass marines (the 2rax stim poke is not that strong anymore cuz of the 30 second stim nerf), having CONSTANT marine production and getting delayed thors (compare to your build order #1) and then same strat to 4ports? Cuz I really don't feel like defending with 13 marines with no stim/shell for 9 mins is viable against good opponents. So I was thinking of having a safer early game with a little delayed thors/4ports. Just wondering what you think of this, and I'm sure you must have thought about it before.
Which 2 Rax expand are you talking about? If it's #2, then you never stop making units with your double barracks and you add a couple well placed bunkers near your natural to help defend early timing pushes. Otherwise, 13 marines in bunkers with your tech units to defend with on maps where you can close your natural off completely is enough. It's all about surviving on a razor's edge early to have an explosive midgame.
I have been thinking about going Shields instead of Stim now because of the nerf...I haven't tested it but I'll have to try it. My main concern is that any player with decent Stalker/Zealot micro will be able to take on infinite amounts of unstimmed marines. I'll update with more on that later...
And, the number one way I've found myself losing games is because my tech gets delayed. It's not a good idea to delay tech for a stronger early game defense because you already DO have enough and your defenses become much weaker as time goes on due to the critical mass of units your opponent is building. Better to tech so you can match him in army size.
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I was talking about buildorder number 1 with only making 13 marines. What I asked was what if we constantly make marines and get shell too and go for defensive 100% since that's what you do too in #1 and have delayed tech for a bit (125 gas and constant marine production might delay it a lot actually, I'll try it out right now though). Because having only 13 marines for so long I feel so scared (until thor is out) and ofcourse its all map dependant (but I would rather find a solid opening that can be used on all mid sized to big sized maps). Your response was excellent though.
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Hmmmmm there must be something wrong. I "winged" the strat I talked about and started my raven and thor at 8:40, which is almost the same time you start those 2 units with build order #1 (around 8:35 on average according to your replays) but I have constant marine production (around 17 when my thor/raven starts building) and they have combat shield.
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On March 23 2011 21:28 Trakky wrote:
Hmmmmm there must be something wrong. I "winged" the strat I talked about and started my raven and thor at 8:40, which is almost the same time you start those 2 units with build order #1 (around 8:35 on average according to your replays) but I have constant marine production (around 17 when my thor/raven starts building) and they have combat shield.
Please link replay. I'll check it out when I get out of work today. Could be onto something here I suppose
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Wow, you seem to always be online haha, <3 it. This time I got 8:10 with 15 marines, but I know I can get it faster. Gonna link some replays when I can get it "optimized"
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Ok so I think going combat shield is pretty useless, because I only have 13 marines at the same time you have 13 marines so having combat shield wouldn't benefit me a lot since I only have 13 marines and thor/raven is already coming out 30 secs after I land my OC at nat (start at 8:10) which means bunkers might not even be needed at nat since if I skip CS, I can prob get thor to come out at same time OC lands (the gas at nat won't matter because in your replays, you get gas after OC finishes anyway, so it's the same thing). Going to try without CS now.
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CS is only really useful if you have extra marines. Otherwise, they are inside bunkers and not really being physically damaged, therefore the health buff doesn't play a role. That means that you're short 100 gas more than you need to be. Maybe just opt for extra marines and see how that plays out?
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I'm loving this build, thanks Synystyr!
I got my first win with it last night. Feels good to win a TvP that goes past 10-15 minutes =D
I think it is still strong after the +30 seconds to stim. Applying early pressure is more difficult; I think conc shell harassment with a marauder and 1-2 marines is possible, but I'd rather turtle and just focus on my macro.
To people who aren't finding much success: it seems to me that your macro needs to be really really solid for this to work (since it is a relatively complicated BO, there are lots of places to screw up). You also need the APM to be able to fend off 1 base pushes while still keeping your macro going.
I seriously recommend practicing the BO against the computer (set to "very hard"-- the "insane" comp is able to tech unrealistically quick) until it is really smooth.
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So you enjoy you 4 starport banshee all in, what happens if they go for a pheonix opener?
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EPT
