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On March 29 2011 17:08 duckTemplar wrote:
What is exactly "deny scouting" means here? using Raven and marines to patrol? Or just locate a Raven in the center of your main and put all starports behind it? But the ob can come in any angle? Am I missing something here? Thanks.
Using your Raven + Thor and/or Marines to scout out your base to kill any observers that are in your base. If you don't find any, then build your starports under the detection range of the Raven. That will allow you to pick off the observer before it can spot the starports. In an ideal situation, you will kill the observer as soon as you Raven pops out and the Protoss will assume Thor/Marine and tech to Immortal/Chargelot.
It's not the end-all if your opponent scouts the starports. It happens, but it's like he scouted you going mass bio and would make Colossi in response. Instead, he'll either mass Stalkers or get Phoenix, both of which you can deal with by building more Banshees or Vikings.
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On March 29 2011 17:08 duckTemplar wrote:
What is exactly "deny scouting" means here? using Raven and marines to patrol? Or just locate a Raven in the center of your main and put all starports behind it? But the ob can come in any angle? Am I missing something here? Thanks.
kill any observers in your base and then keep raven on likely route of observer to keep him the hell out ^__^
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this build is only countering two toss units, namely the stalker and collosi. The same amount of minerals spent elsewhere could also garner a win? The cost to get 8-10 banshees isn't exactly cheap.
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On March 30 2011 05:35 IzieBoy wrote:
this build is only countering two toss units, namely the stalker and collosi. The same amount of minerals spent elsewhere could also garner a win? The cost to get 8-10 banshees isn't exactly cheap.
What...???
Banshees are a hard counter to any ground unit that can't hit air:
Zealot, Colossi, DT, Immortal
Not to mention they trade extremely well with Stalkers, which most Protoss will use as their AA. 8-10 Banshees isn't cheap, which is why you fast expand to afford them. Why is that NOT good? Banshees are one of the most cost effective units Terran has against Protoss.
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Got to give this a try...
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what about the big mommaship? i mean yes.. banshees are very durable as they are air units with cloak as well as being faster than all toss units (excepting phoenix and blink stalkers)...but that's only against early to mid game mixture where your opponent only have stalkers for aa. and yes, banshees actually counter stalkers with obs in high numbers by outranging them with high density and PDD. but banshee harass can be stopped with just 3 or 4 phoenix at home. and the transition to BCs only works when the P player is either unsuspecting of your economy or doesn't build void rays. i mean if a P scouts well, banshees become that really fragile unit which is better replaced by some all-round buff unit like the thor or marauder. congratz on your games btw i watched a few. just wanted to throw some skepticism out there for some perspective balance to suggest that this unit composition isn't the reason behind wins but the solid play. i think i can get away with labelling this as a dps strat where "first-strike" is essential.
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On March 30 2011 23:33 IzieBoy wrote:
what about the big mommaship? i mean yes.. banshees are very durable as they are air units with cloak as well as being faster than all toss units (excepting phoenix and blink stalkers)...but that's only against early to mid game mixture where your opponent only have stalkers for aa. and yes, banshees actually counter stalkers with obs in high numbers by outranging them with high density and PDD. but banshee harass can be stopped with just 3 or 4 phoenix at home. and the transition to BCs only works when the P player is either unsuspecting of your economy or doesn't build void rays. i mean if a P scouts well, banshees become that really fragile unit which is better replaced by some all-round buff unit like the thor or marauder. congratz on your games btw i watched a few. just wanted to throw some skepticism out there for some perspective balance to suggest that this unit composition isn't the reason behind wins but the solid play. i think i can get away with labelling this as a dps strat where "first-strike" is essential.
I'll start this off by saying I have NEVER played against a Mothership. Carriers yes, Momma no.
I also play at a 3300 Masters level so the unit composition has to work for me to get wins. Plaing at that level isn't just 1a vs 1a.
To deal with the Mothership, I already have a Raven in my army composition for detection. You don't mention in your post anything about the other air unit I use. Vikings! Vikings off of 4 starports will help you reach a critical mass quickly enough to deal with both Phoenix and Void Rays quite easily. A transition to BCs can be done quite easily in almost any point in the mid game I've found. Once I get 2-3 out, Phoenix are completely nullified because the AI of the Phoenix make them attack BCs, not Banshees and they do abysmal damage to them.
Depending on the situation, my late game transition will either be BC/Banshee to fight Stalker HT or BC/Viking if Stargate unit counts are high for Protoss.
Also, first strike is great, but also defending with home field advantage can lead up to a NASTY counter attack. If I deny scouting properly, many Protoss will push in with their Colossi Gateway mix and get CRUSHED. This leaves them open with very few units and those aren't suitable for dealing with mass Banshee. I counter attack, expand once or twice and start BC production with upgrades. Very, very hard to stop. Check out a few more replays if you're still skeptical.
I also have a few unreleased replays as of yet. I'm saving them for a BC replay pack, along with a more conventional one as well. If you need a certain type of game, I just might have it 
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i think i'm going to be using practicing this build. what are you going to call this build btw? I don't plan on using it also for T v any race.
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On April 01 2011 05:43 IzieBoy wrote:
i think i'm going to be using practicing this build. what are you going to call this build btw? I don't plan on using it also for T v any race.
Haha uhhh....
Either 4 Port Banshee or Anti-Colossi I guess.
I'd actually like to to be called "Standard TvP". It'll get there eventually =<
I'm counting on you oGsSupernova!
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I'm loving this build right now.
Starport just owns Robotech, and in medium to large numbers it owns Gateway units as well. The Khaydarian Amulet removal makes HT's less worrisome because you can keep your banshee energy low with Cloak and psi-storm is no longer on-demand so its not a reliable deterrent against Banshees. That along with PDD's and Observer snipes means the Banshees just own everything.
The Toss is pretty much forced into going Stargate tech. This is playing right into Terran's hands, because mass marines owns ALL Stargate tech!!! So while you are pumping most of your gas into Banshees, Ravens, and later BC's, you dump all your remaining minerals into mass marines. If the Toss goes Robotech your air will own him. If he goes Stargate tech your marines will own him (BC's with good Yamato usage also rapes Stargate tech). No more instant-storms makes the marines that much more viable. There might be a perfect balance of Robo & Stargate tech with Chargelot dump that can stand up to this, but it's probably too expensive for Protoss to go down all 3 trees.
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I don't really like 2 rax stim anymore. Isn't able to put pressure, and can't hold the first 2 waves of 4 gate anymore without a bunker which is required anyways. I think you should switch over to SeleCT's 2 rax.
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I've personally decided that this build is a million times stronger post patch
I really hate the BC buff and amulet nerf. So much.
Either way, the ONLY cost efficient counter to this is feedback, where you save up your energies for it.
I really don't think stalker+phoenix is enough, even with upgrades, because a BC transition is just so rape vs it
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First, I have to give Synystyr my utmost thanks! I've used this build extensively vs Protoss all throughout Platinum and Diamond with overwhelming success.
I have however run into issues on the defensive side upon getting into high-diamond territory, namely with XNC. That natural is just so open that the bunkers are simply flanked with ease, and if the attacker is competent they warp in 1 sentry and FF them, ofc preventing the repairs. Any advice?
I usually have my 3 bunkers filled and 3-5 marines on top of that outside bunkers before they hit with 2-3 immo's + gateway mix. This is literally the only way I lose this matchup when I use this build.
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On April 02 2011 14:19 Sevenofnines wrote:
I'm loving this build right now.
Starport just owns Robotech, and in medium to large numbers it owns Gateway units as well. The Khaydarian Amulet removal makes HT's less worrisome because you can keep your banshee energy low with Cloak and psi-storm is no longer on-demand so its not a reliable deterrent against Banshees. That along with PDD's and Observer snipes means the Banshees just own everything.
The Toss is pretty much forced into going Stargate tech. This is playing right into Terran's hands, because mass marines owns ALL Stargate tech!!! So while you are pumping most of your gas into Banshees, Ravens, and later BC's, you dump all your remaining minerals into mass marines. If the Toss goes Robotech your air will own him. If he goes Stargate tech your marines will own him (BC's with good Yamato usage also rapes Stargate tech). No more instant-storms makes the marines that much more viable. There might be a perfect balance of Robo & Stargate tech with Chargelot dump that can stand up to this, but it's probably too expensive for Protoss to go down all 3 trees.
Not to mention that with 4 Starports, you can quickly pump out large amounts of Vikings as well if you need quick AA to deal with Phoenix/Void Ray. Vikings trade extremely well with both units and act as shields for your banshees as well!
On April 02 2011 16:37 manicshock wrote:
I don't really like 2 rax stim anymore. Isn't able to put pressure, and can't hold the first 2 waves of 4 gate anymore without a bunker which is required anyways. I think you should switch over to SeleCT's 2 rax.
You're right, you can't pressure any more, but it still an extremely safe expand. If you scout any signs that a 4 Gate is coming, build two bunkers at your ramp and the CC inside your base. This pretty much shuts down the 4 Gate hardcore and you can retake your natural after you get your first banshee. You'll be way ahead at this point, so you can just add two bunkers to your nat, tech up and take the game.
Watch the replays ^.-
On April 03 2011 07:49 Doz wrote:
First, I have to give Synystyr my utmost thanks! I've used this build extensively vs Protoss all throughout Platinum and Diamond with overwhelming success.
I have however run into issues on the defensive side upon getting into high-diamond territory, namely with XNC. That natural is just so open that the bunkers are simply flanked with ease, and if the attacker is competent they warp in 1 sentry and FF them, ofc preventing the repairs. Any advice?
I usually have my 3 bunkers filled and 3-5 marines on top of that outside bunkers before they hit with 2-3 immo's + gateway mix. This is literally the only way I lose this matchup when I use this build.
You're welcome! I'm glad you're enjoying it
So on maps like XNC or Metal where the natural is wide open, you can't 3 bunker expand off 2 naked barracks. If you check out BO#2, you see that a 2 Rax Stim Expand is used instead to take and defend your natural. This is much more sturdy when you can't close your natural off.
Check the replays out! There should be plenty there as a good example for you Post a replay as well if you need further help!
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I'm still surprised we don't see this in tourneys. It is a bit inflexible but it works very nicely if you don't die immediately.
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I've seen some Gold-level Terrans absolutely murder themselves trying to execute this build, who clearly haven't read the OP since it was updated. I like that this build pulls away from Colossus vs Bio and recommend it's use by Terrans looking for a different type of TvP.
I especially like the considerations given for the new map pool which doesn't have any nat chokes that I can think of. The biggest threat here for Terran seems to be a Toss sticking to 1gas as the 4gate 3gate+stargate/robo builds seem to hurt it the most.
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Well, ever since the amulet nerf, I don't think you really even need to do banshee into 4 port mass BC, you can just mass expo behind mass bio and then flip to mass BC.
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I would really like to see this build vs HT's. With enough energy and HT's, Void Rays should eat this mix up.
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So you're saying void rays, and HTs with storm already, and time to get energy to feed back plus storm.
Wow. That's not 20 minutes late lol
I'm telling you, I go fast to cloak 1-1-1 via the Yen build into 1-1-2 on 2 base 2 port cloakshee harasses until you get a raven + 2-4 thors with strike cannons and marines and go. It's a strong opening, if you can call and defend the 3 gate contain/3 gate VR/4 gate etc.
Some maps I've been transitioning to all banshee mixes usually of 3 ports usually. Mara/banshee with hellions if they don't get any AA and I try to go around and harass as much as possible to keep collsai and probe counts low
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On April 04 2011 02:39 iAmJeffReY wrote:
So you're saying void rays, and HTs with storm already, and time to get energy to feed back plus storm.
Wow. That's not 20 minutes late lol
With the execution of some players I've seen in Diamond...
I'm telling you, I go fast to cloak 1-1-1 via the Yen build into 1-1-2 on 2 base 2 port cloakshee harasses until you get a raven + 2-4 thors with strike cannons and marines and go. It's a strong opening, if you can call and defend the 3 gate contain/3 gate VR/4 gate etc.
Some maps I've been transitioning to all banshee mixes usually of 3 ports usually. Mara/banshee with hellions if they don't get any AA and I try to go around and harass as much as possible to keep collsai and probe counts low
Is there a listed version of Yen's build? I only vaguely remember a replay pack. It seems quite similar to the 3Port Thor thing you could do with this build.
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EPT
