As you know Synystyr I have been using and slightly modifying your build for quite a long time (not exclusively but I use it probably 1/3 of my games esp on shattered temple or new plateau where I feel that I can get away with FEs more easily).
I feel like the build is particularly flimsy against mass stalkers/zealots and some phoenix, a couple guardian shields really make banshee/marine less potent as well. Observer sniping really can't be depended on anymore IMO and although you say banshees trade well with stalkers, the truth of the matter is protoss just have such an advantage in numbers because of how early they started their gateway army, that if I can't do some significant harassment damage I find that I can never get enough to beat this combination. (and sometimes I have to mkae vikings instead if they make enough phenoix).
I feel like the commitment to air is too great. I would like to see maybe 2starports making mass banshees and a factory for mass thors (cost and build time exactly the same). I think this would result in a less polarized army that is not as dependent on strong scouting and dare I say cheesey observer sniping. With strike cannons I feel that this would be especially potent. Engagements would proceed similarly except that marines would engage behind the thors. Basically the marines roll would be to kill the zealots at first and then deal with whatever is left over and remain very mobile to deal damage after the battle is cleaned up.
The idea for the thors would be to strike cannon any nearby robo units, tank the initial collosus damage instead of losing all your marines super fast and decimate any phenoix play which IMO is what currently counters your build the hardest. The thor deals more dps then 2 banshees and is much sturdier although it does suffer from being attackable by ground units (and taking +3 dmg from stalkers, but even so the effective health is still higher). I think this is actually an advantage if your thors can survive long enough for the banshees to kill the collosus because this allows your marines to really kick ass if they can just avoid that collosus damage. The protoss meanwhile will have to choose whether to focus down the thors (which he should) or to attack the banshees, and this might result in more no AA situations depending on the protoss unit composition.
Anyway this is mostly theory craft at this point but I will get back to you about it.
I'm telling you, I go fast to cloak 1-1-1 via the Yen build into 1-1-2 on 2 base 2 port cloakshee harasses until you get a raven + 2-4 thors with strike cannons and marines and go. It's a strong opening, if you can call and defend the 3 gate contain/3 gate VR/4 gate etc.
Some maps I've been transitioning to all banshee mixes usually of 3 ports usually. Mara/banshee with hellions if they don't get any AA and I try to go around and harass as much as possible to keep collsai and probe counts low
Is there a listed version of Yen's build? I only vaguely remember a replay pack. It seems quite similar to the 3Port Thor thing you could do with this build.
I can't find the page even though I keep looking >_>
It's basic fast 1-1-1. 10 supply 12 rax 13 gas 15 OC 16 supply 18 fac 18 refinery (scout protoss and know if you have to bunker or not) starport directly after fac, fac starts tech lab half thru starport. Swap port onto fac, cloak + banshee, then start expo CC in base. 2nd banshee, start armory, and reactor on rax.
Harass and don't over extend with first 2-3 banshees. Snipe sentries and probes. Procede to get thors and reactor marines. I get another starport after first thor for dual port and try to keep pressure non stop on the protoss with banshees until I push out with 3-4 thors with strike cannon and +1, and about 20-25 marines, a raven (make after 3rd banshee) and about 15 or so scvs 5 per thor on auto repair.
Definitly packs a punch if you can gain any foothold with the harass with banshees. From there it's usually 2 base vs 2 base and the push does nice damage if you dont walk right into 2-3 collsai without nailing em with cannons or FF them down with banshees. Scan/use raven to spot the single OB we all know toss carry with them. Then just pull back and cloak shee rape anything you have to before you move in for the kill.
That's the best I can remember. He ended it with do /dance and drop mules in their base. lol Definitly transitionable to a 3 port if you cut out the constant thor production
Your Plus +1 is on air attack right? I think +1 mech weapons is slightly silly, considering the thor overkills right? If anything, + vehicle armor would be a better choice.
Just wanted to say that this build owns. I do feel that there is a small window where you are vulnerable though. Like right when you have just 1 or 2 banshees out and toss just pushes you then.
On April 04 2011 12:09 TheSaddestPanda wrote: Your Plus +1 is on air attack right? I think +1 mech weapons is slightly silly, considering the thor overkills right? If anything, + vehicle armor would be a better choice.
Huh? I go +1 Air Armor. I don't even use the factory for anything more than 2 Thors, if that.
On April 04 2011 12:15 oblong wrote: if only there wasnt such a thing as a phoenix?
It's a good thing you read the post, huh? Good thing Terrans have Vikings and Marines.
On April 04 2011 17:58 Washow wrote: Just wanted to say that this build owns. I do feel that there is a small window where you are vulnerable though. Like right when you have just 1 or 2 banshees out and toss just pushes you then.
Yes, there are a few weak points in this build that can be exploited. I still need to figure these out better and see what I can do to defend in those times. What I've found works best is to keep Protoss busy back at his base with dual-pronged Banshee harass instead.
On April 04 2011 12:09 TheSaddestPanda wrote: Your Plus +1 is on air attack right? I think +1 mech weapons is slightly silly, considering the thor overkills right? If anything, + vehicle armor would be a better choice.
Huh? I go +1 Air Armor. I don't even use the factory for anything more than 2 Thors, if that.
On April 04 2011 17:58 Washow wrote: Just wanted to say that this build owns. I do feel that there is a small window where you are vulnerable though. Like right when you have just 1 or 2 banshees out and toss just pushes you then.
Yes, there are a few weak points in this build that can be exploited. I still need to figure these out better and see what I can do to defend in those times. What I've found works best is to keep Protoss busy back at his base with dual-pronged Banshee harass instead.
hey how come u research air armor instead of weapons? my theory is that air weapons is more useful, since a lot of the time the air units will be attacking but not being attacked, therefore the +1 weapons will be used a lot more. how come you think armour might be better?
On April 04 2011 12:09 TheSaddestPanda wrote: Your Plus +1 is on air attack right? I think +1 mech weapons is slightly silly, considering the thor overkills right? If anything, + vehicle armor would be a better choice.
Huh? I go +1 Air Armor. I don't even use the factory for anything more than 2 Thors, if that.
On April 04 2011 12:15 oblong wrote: if only there wasnt such a thing as a phoenix?
It's a good thing you read the post, huh? Good thing Terrans have Vikings and Marines.
On April 04 2011 17:58 Washow wrote: Just wanted to say that this build owns. I do feel that there is a small window where you are vulnerable though. Like right when you have just 1 or 2 banshees out and toss just pushes you then.
Yes, there are a few weak points in this build that can be exploited. I still need to figure these out better and see what I can do to defend in those times. What I've found works best is to keep Protoss busy back at his base with dual-pronged Banshee harass instead.
hey how come u research air armor instead of weapons? my theory is that air weapons is more useful, since a lot of the time the air units will be attacking but not being attacked, therefore the +1 weapons will be used a lot more. how come you think armour might be better?
Banshee dps is already incredible, and the air armor lets them take a lot more stalker/sentry hits.
On April 04 2011 17:58 Washow wrote: Just wanted to say that this build owns. I do feel that there is a small window where you are vulnerable though. Like right when you have just 1 or 2 banshees out and toss just pushes you then.
Yes, there are a few weak points in this build that can be exploited. I still need to figure these out better and see what I can do to defend in those times. What I've found works best is to keep Protoss busy back at his base with dual-pronged Banshee harass instead.
Ah I see. I was trying to hide my banshees as much as possible so I was kinda turtling till I was maxing out or something.
Anyway during one of my games we did 200 vs 200 with him doing the zealot(heavy)+stalker+colossi and I came out 150food and him 90. Fucking owned haha
lol omg the maphacker i can't believe it XD i made a brief video that goes over the time spots where the guy is doing some err intent staring at nothing? maybe the guy has smoked a joint and been hallucinating some epic army of sorts sitting where it should be. of course there is still reason to doubt he really is a maphacker, but still lol....remind me not to stare intently at the large open area of the opponent's natural expansion for 10 secs at a time.
oh and if the music is too annoying just turn the sound off... i'm basically showing the the Red player's vision with some taps to Everyone's view to show through the fog of war.
On April 05 2011 18:42 IzieBoy wrote: lol omg the maphacker i can't believe it XD i made a brief video that goes over the time spots where the guy is doing some err intent staring at nothing? maybe the guy has smoked a joint and been hallucinating some epic army of sorts sitting where it should be. of course there is still reason to doubt he really is a maphacker, but still lol....remind me not to stare intently at the large open area of the opponent's natural expansion for 10 secs at a time.
oh and if the music is too annoying just turn the sound off... i'm basically showing the the Red player's vision with some taps to Everyone's view to show through the fog of war.
Haha oh wow you made a little VOD of it? Cool xD. Yeah, he was most definitely a hacker but he had the right idea with the unit composition that countered me. I was pretty shocked by that. The biggest mistake I made there was not pulling back right away when I saw that many Phoenix, Colossi and Observers. Had I pulled back and pumped out a crap ton of Vikings, it would have been much more favorable to me.
The replay is educational, even though the opponent was indeed a maphacker =X
On April 05 2011 18:42 IzieBoy wrote: lol omg the maphacker i can't believe it XD i made a brief video that goes over the time spots where the guy is doing some err intent staring at nothing? maybe the guy has smoked a joint and been hallucinating some epic army of sorts sitting where it should be. of course there is still reason to doubt he really is a maphacker, but still lol....remind me not to stare intently at the large open area of the opponent's natural expansion for 10 secs at a time.
oh and if the music is too annoying just turn the sound off... i'm basically showing the the Red player's vision with some taps to Everyone's view to show through the fog of war.
Haha oh wow you made a little VOD of it? Cool xD. Yeah, he was most definitely a hacker but he had the right idea with the unit composition that countered me. I was pretty shocked by that. The biggest mistake I made there was not pulling back right away when I saw that many Phoenix, Colossi and Observers. Had I pulled back and pumped out a crap ton of Vikings, it would have been much more favorable to me.
The replay is educational, even though the opponent was indeed a maphacker =X
If you're going to do something like this you need need NEED to have your thor attacking the phoenix. Also, don't be afraid to run away if things start turning out like that. You're also less mineral bound than normal play so it's probably a good idea to scan more heavily to figure out what his composition is.
That said there's not much you can do against hackers.
I'm not the best terran macro player, and sometimes I never have enough units to hold off an initial protoss push. But as soon as I get rid of that fucking observer, these banshee's have insane dps. For those who are lazy to read this large post; Don't forget raven's. PDD is so critical VS Stalkers, and It detects the observer. Also I recommend, when you feel a push coming or your planning a push; save a scan for sniping out the obs. This allows your Banshees to attack at full potential.
On April 05 2011 18:42 IzieBoy wrote: lol omg the maphacker i can't believe it XD i made a brief video that goes over the time spots where the guy is doing some err intent staring at nothing? maybe the guy has smoked a joint and been hallucinating some epic army of sorts sitting where it should be. of course there is still reason to doubt he really is a maphacker, but still lol....remind me not to stare intently at the large open area of the opponent's natural expansion for 10 secs at a time.
oh and if the music is too annoying just turn the sound off... i'm basically showing the the Red player's vision with some taps to Everyone's view to show through the fog of war.
Haha oh wow you made a little VOD of it? Cool xD. Yeah, he was most definitely a hacker but he had the right idea with the unit composition that countered me. I was pretty shocked by that. The biggest mistake I made there was not pulling back right away when I saw that many Phoenix, Colossi and Observers. Had I pulled back and pumped out a crap ton of Vikings, it would have been much more favorable to me.
The replay is educational, even though the opponent was indeed a maphacker =X
If you're going to do something like this you need need NEED to have your thor attacking the phoenix. Also, don't be afraid to run away if things start turning out like that. You're also less mineral bound than normal play so it's probably a good idea to scan more heavily to figure out what his composition is.
That said there's not much you can do against hackers.
Yeah, that was such a perfect response that I was taken aback and my army melted so fast. Had I been better about scouting, I would have known that he was doing that and would have made more vikings. Bad playing by me, even if he was a maphacker. I still should have won.
On April 07 2011 01:43 SoftSoap wrote: I'm not the best terran macro player, and sometimes I never have enough units to hold off an initial protoss push. But as soon as I get rid of that fucking observer, these banshee's have insane dps. For those who are lazy to read this large post; Don't forget raven's. PDD is so critical VS Stalkers, and It detects the observer. Also I recommend, when you feel a push coming or your planning a push; save a scan for sniping out the obs. This allows your Banshees to attack at full potential.
Mmhmm, but you play a pretty decent Protoss Observer sniping forces your enemy to retreat or risk losing his entire army, same way DTs work when you run into them. This is great if you need to repel a midgame push and stall just a little longer. It's always worth getting a couple vikings even if their only purpose is to kill observers.
You, Halby and iEchoic have helped me so much. My TvP is an adaptation of your tvp and iEchoic's Banshee Bio TvP. I fast expand like you and get raven and banshee and win a lot of my matches.
By far, my worst matchup is tvt b/c I suxor at tank immobility. So, I have been trying hard to adapt the tvp for tvt. And I am finding success. Although I am very low on the leagues, I am beating diamond and platinum players. I believe I will get promoted at some point, as I have won the last 17 out of 20 games--no joke.
Now with the advant of the BC speed, this tvp has become a viable tvt. I am loving it. Here is a replay of BC in action:
A few things to note: One has to understand that tank pushes are slow. So, there is no reason to panic [even though I did panicky by suiciding my first set of marines to his tank drop in my main. But after that, I calmed down w/ lots of patience]. Give the tank player a few buildings to hit and he will be happy. In my case, I gave him a bunch of barracks to hit while I tech'd, expanded, macro'd and built BC's. It is great to now have an answer to sieged tanks hitting my main. The knowledge that tanks take forever to blow up a building is very comforting and allowed me to continue with my game plan and only occassionally do a bit of micro. After all, this is a macro game--or at least that is my style.
The Tank player has to worry about his tanks. For, if he looks away for one second, all his tanks could be dead (from cloaked banshees, etc). This isn't the case with the Sky terran, I can look away and expand and hit hotkeys for more spam bc's. So, it is really cool.
I am posting this here not because I am intentionally being off-topic. Rather, I believe in this build. I think it has soo much unexplored potential in tvt. Now that BC's can move as fast as thors, I think of BC's as flying thors :-). They cost nearly the same; take nearly as long to build; have near the same health and can hit air and ground. And They NEVER die b/c autocast SCV's repairs.
On April 10 2011 23:50 longtang wrote: Hi Synystyr:
You, Halby and iEchoic have helped me so much. My TvP is an adaptation of your tvp and iEchoic's Banshee Bio TvP. I fast expand like you and get raven and banshee and win a lot of my matches.
By far, my worst matchup is tvt b/c I suxor at tank immobility. So, I have been trying hard to adapt the tvp for tvt. And I am finding success. Although I am very low on the leagues, I am beating diamond and platinum players. I believe I will get promoted at some point, as I have won the last 17 out of 20 games--no joke.
Now with the advant of the BC speed, this tvp has become a viable tvt. I am loving it. Here is a replay of BC in action:
A few things to note: One has to understand that tank pushes are slow. So, there is no reason to panic [even though I did panicky by suiciding my first set of marines to his tank drop in my main. But after that, I calmed down w/ lots of patience]. Give the tank player a few buildings to hit and he will be happy. In my case, I gave him a bunch of barracks to hit while I tech'd, expanded, macro'd and built BC's. It is great to now have an answer to sieged tanks hitting my main. The knowledge that tanks take forever to blow up a building is very comforting and allowed me to continue with my game plan and only occassionally do a bit of micro. After all, this is a macro game--or at least that is my style.
The Tank player has to worry about his tanks. For, if he looks away for one second, all his tanks could be dead (from cloaked banshees, etc). This isn't the case with the Sky terran, I can look away and expand and hit hotkeys for more spam bc's. So, it is really cool.
I am posting this here not because I am intentionally being off-topic. Rather, I believe in this build. I think it has soo much unexplored potential in tvt. Now that BC's can move as fast as thors, I think of BC's as flying thors :-). They cost nearly the same; take nearly as long to build; have near the same health and can hit air and ground. And They NEVER die b/c autocast SCV's repairs.
So cool to be able to go tank less! do cheers.
Hey Longtang,
I'm glad you're enjoying this build and that its helped you improve! I honestly can't say I've tried this tooooo much in TvT....but I do see it working, I'm just hesitant of going up against early tank pushes. Something along the lines of a 1-1-1 expand into 4 starports might work though. Marines are a little more difficult to deal with than stalkers, because of their higher dps and how easy it is to mass a large number of them. The BC transition however is deadly, and with 4 starports, you can maintain your air superiority with ease. Will have to experiment with this more! Thanks for the replay, will be sure to take a look when I get home!
Go in his mineral line and try to snipe his gas probes. If you're sneak you can take out a lot before a stalker gets there, then get out and search for forward pylons/take watch towers.
This really throws a toss off, specially if they are 4 gating plus it gives you good scouting.
back in your base its map dependent but you want to get 2-3 tanks, a couple missile towers, and a sensor tower. Holding that second is the hardest part. You need tanks on the high ground with some bunkers to stop aggression. You'll want at least one starport early to deter colossi until you can get a good stream of shees.
After your second is up and protected sweep for obs and start your banshee infrastructure.
Make Vikings and a raven and you should be able to take map control and deny his third.
I feel like this style will not be as good to the new style that Protoss players are using, the heavy gateway with upgrades style. Adelscott specializes in this and also tyler's double forge strat that doesn't go robo and with fast charge and blink, P's army is very mobile with the idle robo that can keep pumping out observers and P can expand everywhere. Also, keep in mind that your army is a deathball itself and will not be able to work nicely if being splitted. This build gets a really really late upgrade and P will almost have 3/3 by the time you got 1/0 for air. The timing attack with double PDD won't really work because any good P will stay in the middle and they can run away safely (artosis made a tutorial on this about polt prime's timing attack with raven).
On April 12 2011 21:09 Fedor wrote: Here is my variation to the build:
2 rax to 3 Reapers. Yes. Reapers.
Go in his mineral line and try to snipe his gas probes. If you're sneak you can take out a lot before a stalker gets there, then get out and search for forward pylons/take watch towers.
This really throws a toss off, specially if they are 4 gating plus it gives you good scouting.
back in your base its map dependent but you want to get 2-3 tanks, a couple missile towers, and a sensor tower. Holding that second is the hardest part. You need tanks on the high ground with some bunkers to stop aggression. You'll want at least one starport early to deter colossi until you can get a good stream of shees.
After your second is up and protected sweep for obs and start your banshee infrastructure.
Make Vikings and a raven and you should be able to take map control and deny his third.
Win.
That style of play is really safe, and will let you turtle into your tech extremely well. I personally don't prefer it as much because I like to get those Banshees out ASAP, rather than slowly tech up to them. It's a preference, but as long as you end up getting a solid Air based army later, you're bound to do well
On April 12 2011 22:37 Trakky wrote: I feel like this style will not be as good to the new style that Protoss players are using, the heavy gateway with upgrades style. Adelscott specializes in this and also tyler's double forge strat that doesn't go robo and with fast charge and blink, P's army is very mobile with the idle robo that can keep pumping out observers and P can expand everywhere. Also, keep in mind that your army is a deathball itself and will not be able to work nicely if being splitted. This build gets a really really late upgrade and P will almost have 3/3 by the time you got 1/0 for air. The timing attack with double PDD won't really work because any good P will stay in the middle and they can run away safely (artosis made a tutorial on this about polt prime's timing attack with raven).
The timing attack with the double PDD is not based around the PDD. It is a timing push that punishes a Protoss heavily who does not get sufficient anti air out to deal with the critical mass of Banshees that I have at that moment. The extra PDDs and the ability to snipe observers is just a huge bonus that comes along This 2 Base timing push differs from a Polt timing attack in many, many ways.
With Banshees, you are more mobile than Blink Stalkers because of the ability to fly and cloak. Being able to deny expansions with your banshees and easily snipe buildings and get out is a crucial part of this style if your timing attack was not very successful.
Double upgrade builds are strong, but I have yet to play one that's really taxed me hard. It sounds solid in theory, but even with upgrades, banshees still trade extremely well with stalkers. +1 Armor BCs with Yamato can really go the distance, even against 3/3 Stalkers. I'll have to dig up a replay or two. I'm still having great success with this build on ladder nonetheless.
EPT
Observer sniping forces your enemy to retreat or risk losing his entire army, same way DTs work when you run into them. This is great if you need to repel a midgame push and stall just a little longer. It's always worth getting a couple vikings even if their only purpose is to kill observers.
