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On March 23 2011 22:36 HEROwithNOlegacy wrote:
So you enjoy you 4 starport banshee all in, what happens if they go for a pheonix opener?
From the OP:
A fast Stargate with lots of Phoenix do very well against this build, along with either chargelots or Colossi to clean up the marines. However, with two Thors in your initial push, Phoenix can get shut down very quickly as long as you snipe the obs and let your banshees reign free.
Also, if your opponent sees Thors right before you start to deny his scouting, he's probably going to switch to immortals or Void Rays. If you're still worried about it, cut a few marines and put up turrets.
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On March 23 2011 22:36 HEROwithNOlegacy wrote:
So you enjoy you 4 starport banshee all in, what happens if they go for a pheonix opener?
I don’t consider this build an all in, a tech switch is difficult with 4 starports up I'll give you that, but what tech switch for any race is easy? Anyway If you build a Reaper after your 1st marine and use it to scout and then see Stargates Obviously you’re not going to build 4 ports and Banshee's… In that case I would switch to a more Bio heavy army and mix in some Thors… The key is to scout, he said this is an Anti Colossus build, not a counter to every Protoss unit build…
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Due to the low range of banshees compared to vikings protosses with high level control will shut a build like this down soundly. If by chance the protoss opens robo and then switches into dual stargate he can actually destroy banshees and force cloak to be wasted b4 the push even starts.
Will probably work up to a 3200 masters level max, though. Every counterargument involves "thor killing observers, so banshees can cloak" or "theres so many marines". Theres very little emphasis on the composition of the protoss, as well as the fact a protoss can hold this composition early on, and hold the first push using cannons while teching templars.
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On March 23 2011 22:36 HEROwithNOlegacy wrote:
So you enjoy you 4 starport banshee all in, what happens if they go for a pheonix opener?
All-in? I disagree.
If you want to see how I deal with Phoenix openers, check out this livecast I played at PAX East against another Master level player. Phoenix openers are not the end-all to this build.
+ Show Spoiler +
On March 23 2011 22:49 FuSioN722 wrote:
Due to the low range of banshees compared to vikings protosses with high level control will shut a build like this down soundly. If by chance the protoss opens robo and then switches into dual stargate he can actually destroy banshees and force cloak to be wasted b4 the push even starts.
Will probably work up to a 3200 masters level max, though. Every counterargument involves "thor killing observers, so banshees can cloak" or "theres so many marines". Theres very little emphasis on the composition of the protoss, as well as the fact a protoss can hold this composition early on, and hold the first push using cannons while teching templars.
You are right in sense. Players with excellent control shouldn't lose their Colossi to banshees. However, colossi are EXTREMELY low on the priority list of units to kill when I push. The banshees are meant to deal with ground armies and make Colossi useless against my composition. Forcing the Protoss to commit the deep down a tech tree that isn't suitable with dealing with mass airplay is exactly what I want. I play on sacrificing my entire ground army every time I push.
Against a Protoss who scouts this early and transitions into Phoenix, I will easily scout this and respond with fast BCs. With the speed buff implemented now, travel time reduction with a timing attack consisting of fewer Banshees but more marines, vikings and a Raven with 2 PDDs will end the game. Check this livecast out that I played to win the finals of the Giantbomb Community Tournament when my opponent opens Phoenix.
http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/12361326(Game starts at ~2:00)
Finally, High Templars are not the hard counter to Banshees either. While Storm can seriously crush your pushes, players using this style of play need to be efficient at storm dodging. I used to lose many games because my banshees would stack and Storms would kill all my banshees at once...not good. I've since then learned to storm dodge much more effectively. If I see that cannons are at your front door when I push, I will either pull back and macro/deny expansions or use my higher mobility factor and attack what I can on the sides of you base.
And observer sniping is really powerful in any situation, regardless of Protoss unit composition.
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Hi synystyr, i really like this build. I havent won alot with it just yet though. I just need to refine and get worked into my head.
The biggest problem is storm and finding the observer? Any tips on these things? Also, my ravens tend to get sniped so i wont have any detection. And if i keep it back its sometimes out of the detection range of the obs.
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Yeah, i have kinda the same problem as BK. I thinks it kinda hard to target the observer. Especially if they have collosus or voids which they can hide under.
Do you have any tips?
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On March 25 2011 06:23 BKSandland wrote:
Hi synystyr, i really like this build. I havent won alot with it just yet though. I just need to refine and get worked into my head.
The biggest problem is storm and finding the observer? Any tips on these things? Also, my ravens tend to get sniped so i wont have any detection. And if i keep it back its sometimes out of the detection range of the obs.
On March 25 2011 07:43 kusu wrote:
Yeah, i have kinda the same problem as BK. I thinks it kinda hard to target the observer. Especially if they have collosus or voids which they can hide under.
Do you have any tips?
Hey guys. I am usually pretty good about manually clicking the observer. It's just takes practice to spot it and then be able to focus it down quickly. I would recommend getting a viking or two if it's really that much trouble however. Also, you want to drop the 2 PDDs with your Raven and then quickly move it behind your army. The detection range on the Raven is actually rather long 
And against Storm, I have uploaded a couple new replays. It's all about storm dodging via stutter flying with your banshees. Snipe any templars early with harass if possible, every little bit helps.
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This is wonderful. I have been using BC in 4v4 since 1.3 and I have won 10 out of 11 games. BC's are blazing fast. Thank you for this build that will fuk up protoss. All protoss should DIE. They are the most despicable race with the most underhanded people playing them because their scouts never scout. Rather they hide and do underhanded shitt.
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By the way, I would say the weakness to build order #1 is warp prism DTs because the raven comes after 2 warp ins and you wont have enough scans to cover your 2 bases. Plus, this opening requires as many mules as possible.
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On March 25 2011 11:35 longtang wrote:
This is wonderful. I have been using BC in 4v4 since 1.3 and I have won 10 out of 11 games. BC's are blazing fast. Thank you for this build that will fuk up protoss. All protoss should DIE. They are the most despicable race with the most underhanded people playing them because their scouts never scout. Rather they hide and do underhanded shitt.
Hey, we have scans that cost us even less and zero risk to use. Less hatred towards Protoss, they're really not thaaaaaat bad
Regardless, enjoy the build!
On March 25 2011 11:38 Trakky wrote:
By the way, I would say the weakness to build order #1 is warp prism DTs because the raven comes after 2 warp ins and you wont have enough scans to cover your 2 bases. Plus, this opening requires as many mules as possible.
I have been playing and massing games specifically against DT expand builds with my practice partner at the moment. The DTs hit right before the Raven arrives, so you need to build 2+ scans around the 8:30 mark in anticipation for this. Keep as many SCVs alive and once the Raven is out, you can clean anything that you missed up. If Protoss goes Warp Prism DTs, it is a 1 Base allin because it is so expensive to tech so deep two trees. The game is won as soon as the Raven is out.
Check out the most recent replays for examples.
I will also be uploading a small replay pack tomorrow that feature:
Defense against MC Forcefield style 4 Gate
Defense against regular 4 Gate with 2 Rax Stim Expand
MASS SPEED BCS ON 5 BASES (Unstoppable!)
Regular vs Colossus games to nail in how bad this build beats Robo tech
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Updated with a small replay pack!
Includes:
Beating 4 Gate on with 2 Rax Stim Expand -> 4 Port
Beating 3 Gate Sentry Push with MC style FFs vs Bunker Expand
Beating Mass Phoenix/Colossi deathball WITH EASE. (ft. battlecruisers!)
MASS BC REPLAY!
A couple replays on how to play on the newer maps.
Enjoy and leave feedback as always guys!
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So after my post about working on a new opening, with the same goal in the end, I have played like 30 TvPs in the last 3 days and had a winrate of about 90% against 3k masters so I got really happy and wanted to post here about the BO and stuff; however, it saddened me so much that I realized later today that it can't hold most of 1 gate all ins, namely the VR rush and the 3gate robo.
Everything was perfect and it was even DT-proof and DT warp prism proof (because the timing for my raven and thor is much earlier than yours and the tight wall in up my ramp provides a solid wall against normal DTs). Ofcourse when I play against my friends, they won't 1base all ins so it was mostly all macro games which I said I won about 90% of them. Now I need to tweak it quite a bit to test against all the all ins first.
It WAS basically 1 rax FE with gas, add in 2 bunkers (first one before the Stalker Z poke and 2nd one before the 4gate begins and SD in middle to have a tight wall against DT). So I thought 2 bunkers and 8 marines would be enough to hold off 4gate but against pro Ps, it's a nono. Then I get another gas at around 27 and fact right after. My expo is inbase until I get my thor out because it's much safer (bunkers at top of ramp is so much more powerful than normal) and my OC would finish around 40 game seconds or so before 1st thor is out so it's not too bad. I would use a scan when my 2nd OC finishes to check his nat if he expo or not, if he hasn't, i'll add 2 more bunkers (total 4 now). But it's still not enough for 3gate robo all in 
The reason I really liked this opening was because of the BoX style it has, people see 1 rax 1 gas OC and then the scout would die. This means that toss has no idea if I'm doing normal MM, or this strat, or sjow's dual fact play. Also, I only need to scout P's location and if he expo or not with my 2nd OC scan because no matter what P is doing, I would still follow this opening strictly. But ofcourse it doesn't work anymore because I just don't have enough units to defend. I'll get back to you once I improve/tweak it.
I want to add some pointers to the unit comp against P's unit comp.
Against mass zealots/phx:
do NOT attack, get BCs out asap and just turtle. If you decide to attack him, any P at high masters level would sweep in your base with mass phx and kill your whole mineral line before you even reach half the distance. Also, you would likely lose this battle and if you try to retreat, they'll just chase you the whole way. However, if your defending, you have the defender's advantage in new units rallying and mass repairing.
Against mass HTs (more than 4):
EMP your own BCs.
Against VRs + phx with some gateways:
do NOT do the 2base timing atk with 2 thors, ~11 banshees and rines with double pdd. You need BCs out asap. FF the VRs asap (if you have have yamato, even better but that's unlikely). Be on the defensive side, so you can pull scvs to mass repair and phx/VRs with small gateway army sux against mass repair. Make sure you FF the VR because fully charged VRs hurt BCs and thors a lot. Put your marines at the back and let your banshees/BCs go in first, then bring the marines in, because VRs/phx just suck against marines.
Against 2 base 2 stargate VRs:
I always lose when I attack with the timing attack, so what I do is get an ebay asap, get 2-3 turrets at my nat depending on how long the game has gone by and just turtle 100% and double expand while getting fusion core and a round or 2 of vikings out. This means that if P attacks, I'll just roll him over and if he doesn't attack, then it's better for me than him because I double expand and with BCs with yamato, I'll have a higher chance of winning at this stage rather than a head on fight on 2 bases.
*IMPORTANT* When you have vikings out and decides to turtle, do the viking flower by your wall (turrets) by doing a patrol on a spot and shift+stop before the units get there. It's soooo helpful but will probably be patched in after 1.3
Against P that are smart when they see a raven and fights in the middle so they can run away from PDD:
If they're not getting phx, get all your banshees and attack their base, this makes them retreat to their base and then charge in with your ground army so your PDD will be effective.
I think I have more but I can only think of these so far.
I'm having most trouble against carriers, I don't know if I should stall/turtle and let game goes to 4-5 bases or try to end it early. My 2 base timing attack gets rolled over (about 4 banshees, and like 8 vikings). So I'm debating whether I should get turrets up (cuz they're so dam cost efficient against air) and double expand or try to end it early. But toss is like Zerg, if you let P goes unpressured, his macro will skyrocket and he can remax real fast after the 200/200 battle.
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On March 26 2011 22:58 Trakky wrote:
So after my post about working on a new opening, with the same goal in the end, I have played like 30 TvPs in the last 3 days and had a winrate of about 90% against 3k masters so I got really happy and wanted to post here about the BO and stuff; however, it saddened me so much that I realized later today that it can't hold most of 1 gate all ins, namely the VR rush and the 3gate robo.
Still, it looks very promising. Do you have a replay of a macro game, and one where you lose to a one base all-in?
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Well it's just not possible to hold off any 1 base all ins (even with top of the ramp advantage) with maybe 9 marines and 4 bunkers (added 2 more when scouted no expo). But saying it works in a macro game but not against all ins mean that it's a bad strat because then I can go 15 CC every game and say "oh, if it's a macro game, I win 90% of the time, but if my opponent goes any 1 base all in, I lose."
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Hey Synistr, i stumbled across this a couple of days ago and have been fanatically trying to get it to work! i had some limited success... and boy was that an AWESOME feeling destroying his army with my cloaked banshees. the fool didn't even have an observer! eeeeee ;D
but unforuntately i have been savagely beaten many a time... often a simple well done 4gate beats me, often im not repairing the bunkers quick enough, quick void rays beat me too, protoss are just so pesky with their stupid pylons everywhere ^___^
anyway i want to become a student of this build so i can bring back some self respect to the terran race and do my bit to SMACK some PROTOSS! going to watch your replay pack na. thanks! :D
PS: I got raped pretty bad last game i tried it... he had void rays... i'm still a learning player, silver/gold, was my sub par macro the reason i lost here, or does other guy's build rape it? after watching it back maybe i should have sent my marines to harass straight away since there mighta been a window of opportunity?
Replay link: http://www.mediafire.com/?229s9996wuq89n9
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I tried a variation of this build, but throwing a CC at 15. I throw it down in an akward spot of my base, so my opponent get confused for a moment and search for proxies. First thing I get afterwards are 3 wall-in barracks then pumping marines. I then lift the barracks one by one to build bunkers at the ramp. Get Tech+Stim. I only get the expo when I have enough ground army (8 minute mark). It can seem late, but it will get insta-saturation since you produced SCVs from 2 CC since that time. It's only when I get the natural and it's gas that I start the 4 starports.
Yep, worked good so far. The economic advantage of CC first is awesome, even if you don't grab the natural straight away, Mules + double scvs production is so worth it. Could be a little weak to 4gate / 3gate robo, so you have to be good with your barracks/bunkers timing, and always have scvs ready to repair (set 3 of them to a control group).
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On March 28 2011 00:06 jimbob615 wrote:Hey Synistr, i stumbled across this a couple of days ago and have been fanatically trying to get it to work! i had some limited success... and boy was that an AWESOME feeling destroying his army with my cloaked banshees. the fool didn't even have an observer! eeeeee ;D but unforuntately i have been savagely beaten many a time... often a simple well done 4gate beats me, often im not repairing the bunkers quick enough, quick void rays beat me too, protoss are just so pesky with their stupid pylons everywhere ^___^ anyway i want to become a student of this build so i can bring back some self respect to the terran race and do my bit to SMACK some PROTOSS! going to watch your replay pack na. thanks! :D PS: I got raped pretty bad last game i tried it... he had void rays... i'm still a learning player, silver/gold, was my sub par macro the reason i lost here, or does other guy's build rape it? after watching it back maybe i should have sent my marines to harass straight away since there mighta been a window of opportunity? Replay link: http://www.mediafire.com/?229s9996wuq89n9
I will take a look at this for you when I get home from work ^_^
Like you mentioned, I am more than sure that it is just a macro issue, but I'll definitely look into it and give you more details.
On March 28 2011 00:06 drcatellino wrote:
I tried a variation of this build, but throwing a CC at 15. I throw it down in an akward spot of my base, so my opponent get confused for a moment and search for proxies. First thing I get afterwards are 3 wall-in barracks then pumping marines. I then lift the barracks one by one to build bunkers at the ramp. Get Tech+Stim. I only get the expo when I have enough ground army (8 minute mark). It can seem late, but it will get insta-saturation since you produced SCVs from 2 CC since that time. It's only when I get the natural and it's gas that I start the 4 starports.
Yep, worked good so far. The economic advantage of CC first is awesome, even if you don't grab the natural straight away, Mules + double scvs production is so worth it. Could be a little weak to 4gate / 3gate robo, so you have to be good with your barracks/bunkers timing, and always have scvs ready to repair (set 3 of them to a control group).
15 CC is just way too risky against Protoss to me...I haven't successfully pulled it off personally. But if it does work for you, then you get that awesome economic advantage and can get your Starports out sooner. What I dislike about your style here is that you get a 15 CC, but you don't utilize it till very late. A 2 Rax CC sounds more economic than your opener simply because I take my natural right away. Also, you are much weaker vs 4 Gate and 3 Gate Robo than I am because you go CC first. That's kind of a given though xD.
Have any replays?
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4 gate smashes me to with this, I'll have to watch your replay when I get home to see how you hold it off. Bunker placement is hard with some of the new maps. When I scout 4 gate I throw down a 3rd Rax with a tech lab (which slows the rest of this build unfortunately) but makes me able to hold off the 4 gate tho. However 4 gate plays right into this build because I find most Toss that go 4gate, do it into more gate Colossus. If I scout VR opening I normally abandon this build and do a Marine Heavy MMM force with Thors Mixied in. I have to say before finding this thread I was completely lost against Protoss, its been a great help…
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On March 28 2011 22:40 BONE wrote:
4 gate smashes me to with this, I'll have to watch your replay when I get home to see how you hold it off. Bunker placement is hard with some of the new maps. When I scout 4 gate I throw down a 3rd Rax with a tech lab (which slows the rest of this build unfortunately) but makes me able to hold off the 4 gate tho. However 4 gate plays right into this build because I find most Toss that go 4gate, do it into more gate Colossus. If I scout VR opening I normally abandon this build and do a Marine Heavy MMM force with Thors Mixied in. I have to say before finding this thread I was completely lost against Protoss, its been a great help…
Here's a replay for you to check out on holding a 4 Gate with a 2 Rax Stim Expand:
http://www.mediafire.com/?p129g9sg7x22w89
Things to note:
- I build my CC in my base and bunker up after scouting the 4 Gate.
- I tech straight to Banshees as fast as possible to break the contain and expand, allowing my macro to win the game for me.
The main focus is to not let the push do too much damage against you so that you can build a nice ball of MM to break the contain and turn the game into you hands. With a 2 Rax Bunker Expand, you should be able to hold a 4 Gate off simply by repairing your bunkers. It's that easy 
And I'm glad you're enjoying the build! Post any replays if you need specific help ^_^
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What is exactly "deny scouting" means here? using Raven and marines to patrol? Or just locate a Raven in the center of your main and put all starports behind it? But the ob can come in any angle? Am I missing something here? Thanks.
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EPT
