|
High templars are either hit or miss, depending on how storms land. The AI of the banshee will make it so that they stack quite a bit while hitting their targets, so try your best to spread your banshees as much as possible to mitigate the AoE. Once the initial storms are used though, the remaining banshees will usually be able to take care of everything.
Feedback is a non-issue. There are just waaaaaay too many banshees to feedback effectively, shutting down one of the avenues a Protoss might try and use to beat the banshees.
Anything that bypasses the bunker wall hurts a lot. The worst is a Blink Stalker Rush. Be dilligent about scouting for warp prisms/proxies and get a cloaked Banshee out ASAP if you scout Blink.
I would have to say that Feedback would destroy your banshees, especially if they have been around for awhile. This works exact same way as Ghost vs Templar, the EMPs aren't suppose to make the ghost be able to snipe after, and the feedbacks shouldn't allow the templar the storm or visa versa.
I'd say feedback with half your templar and storm with the rest.
|
On February 11 2011 17:21 Kornholi0 wrote:
High templars are either hit or miss, depending on how storms land. The AI of the banshee will make it so that they stack quite a bit while hitting their targets, so try your best to spread your banshees as much as possible to mitigate the AoE. Once the initial storms are used though, the remaining banshees will usually be able to take care of everything.
Feedback is a non-issue. There are just waaaaaay too many banshees to feedback effectively, shutting down one of the avenues a Protoss might try and use to beat the banshees.
Anything that bypasses the bunker wall hurts a lot. The worst is a Blink Stalker Rush. Be dilligent about scouting for warp prisms/proxies and get a cloaked Banshee out ASAP if you scout Blink.
I would have to say that Feedback would destroy your banshees, especially if they have been around for awhile. This works exact same way as Ghost vs Templar, the EMPs aren't suppose to make the ghost be able to snipe after, and the feedbacks shouldn't allow the templar the storm or visa versa.
I'd say feedback with half your templar and storm with the rest.
The problem with feedback, is that when I push, there is only enough time to get a few templars out, and they aren't stacked with energy yet. It's impossible to feedback all of the banshees because of how many there are (10+). Feedbacking the Raven is a huge pickup for the Toss because I usually push at 200/200 energy, but banshees are always very low on energy as I'll cloak pre-engagement and try to snipe obs, making it harder to feedback regardless. And also, with the banshees stacked up, there's a very high chance you'll accidently feedback the same banshee twice. Storm is just sooooo much better than feedback in this situation that I don't really know why you wouldn't use it personally. I've never had ANY problems with feedback, whereas I have died to storms before.
|
If worse comes to worse, toggle cloak until them have like 20 energy on all your cloaked banshees.
Having cloak doesn't actually matter that much after you win the battle. It only matters if you can figure out how to kill the obs during the engagement.
|
On February 11 2011 23:04 Antisocialmunky wrote:
If worse comes to worse, toggle cloak until them have like 20 energy on all your cloaked banshees.
Having cloak doesn't actually matter that much after you win the battle. It only matters if you can figure out how to kill the obs during the engagement.
Right, if you can snipe the obs, you're in awesome shape. If feedback really is an issue, you can do what ASM said to reduce damage, but I've found its always better to cloak, try for the obs snipe and spread banshees out to mitigate storms when dealing with templars.
|
Love! LOVE! LOVE! this build.
I'm so, so sick of getting rolled by immortals/sentry or col builds. It's fun to actually push out on 'toss and know you can push their shit in without godly micro. Meanwhile they are teching to lulzystorms.
I think I have this build down, and here is a game of me vs a plat 'toss. (Yus, I'm silver!).
I think the most important part of his build is around the 7-10 min mark when the toss player might push. I've had it happen to me twice where I was in total macro mode and couldn't get workers to my bunkers in time. I think that timing attack window is the most vulnerable point, right before your raven/thor is coming out. It might even be worth keeping a few workers right by your bunkers on auto repair just in case.
That and scouting for sentry heavy builds.
In this game he was content to use his Col to snipe my bunkers, which game me time to pull my fat out of the fryer.
http://www.mediafire.com/?6gbpj0jgx6afie1
Criticism is welcome.
Here is another really good game on Metal. It gets kind of furious at the ending and my macro gets sloppy, but I wouldn't have won without this strat :D
He techs switch after surviving my first shee attack and gets voids and a few phoenix. So I tech switched to marine/medi. :D
http://www.mediafire.com/?6gbpj0jgx6afie1
|
I find this build to be more difficult on certain maps like setting up the Triple Bunkers at Expo versus Protoss that will go for Warp Prism Play. 4 Zealots can take quite a beating from unstimmed marines and I don't want to eject all my bunkers trying to fend it off.
|
On February 16 2011 12:55 Fedor wrote:Love! LOVE! LOVE! this build. I'm so, so sick of getting rolled by immortals/sentry or col builds. It's fun to actually push out on 'toss and know you can push their shit in without godly micro. Meanwhile they are teching to lulzystorms. I think I have this build down, and here is a game of me vs a plat 'toss. (Yus, I'm silver!). I think the most important part of his build is around the 7-10 min mark when the toss player might push. I've had it happen to me twice where I was in total macro mode and couldn't get workers to my bunkers in time. I think that timing attack window is the most vulnerable point, right before your raven/thor is coming out. It might even be worth keeping a few workers right by your bunkers on auto repair just in case. That and scouting for sentry heavy builds. In this game he was content to use his Col to snipe my bunkers, which game me time to pull my fat out of the fryer. http://www.mediafire.com/?6gbpj0jgx6afie1Criticism is welcome.
Glad to hear some feedback from the lower end of the ladder! (No offense  ) I 100% agree with you that the weakest point in the build is right before the Raven/Thor pop out...So that's why you should be diligent about your scouting and hold the watchtowers to see when a push is about to happen so you can prepare to repair your bunkers ASAP. Will watch the replay when I get home!
On February 16 2011 15:49 SecretA5DC wrote:
I find this build to be more difficult on certain maps like setting up the Triple Bunkers at Expo versus Protoss that will go for Warp Prism Play. 4 Zealots can take quite a beating from unstimmed marines and I don't want to eject all my bunkers trying to fend it off.
Yes, maps with open naturals such as XNC or Metal can't be properly defend with bunkers, which is why I opt for early stimmed Bio (See Applying Early Bio Pressure tab) and have a mobile defensive force to deal with pushes.
On maps when you can wall off, you should be very wary of the Protoss trying to circumvent your defenses. I've found the best way to deal with this is to patrol 1-2 marines around the edges of your base. This nullifies ANY possibility of a proxy warpin, and helps you spot that drop early and possibly deter it because of the fragility of the Warp Prism.
If there is a successful warpin from the prism, you need to unload 2 of the bunkers to defend, use SCVs to surround the zealots and HOLD POSITION so that the AI of the zealots causes them to get stuck in your SCV line and your marines can clean up. If you stop a drop, you are very far ahead if they didn't do any damage. It really cuts into their tech and army size more than you'd think.
|
This build made me switch from Protoss to Terran this weekend. I hate having to rely on the same Colossus build over and over again after 500 games played.
I too found out that sniping the observers is of key importance. Also i go for early Raven + Viking instead of Raven + Thor for sniping mobility. It's working like a charm so far!
|
On February 16 2011 23:41 Bourgi wrote:
This build made me switch from Protoss to Terran this weekend. I hate having to rely on the same Colossus build over and over again after 500 games played.
I too found out that sniping the observers is of key importance. Also i go for early Raven + Viking instead of Raven + Thor for sniping mobility. It's working like a charm so far!
Interesting! Personally, I've found Raven/Thor to deny scouting can force the Protoss to go Immortal/Zealot, and if you hide your starports and banshees well, you can REALLY catch a Protoss off guard. Thors also have the same range against air as vikings, and do phenomenal ground DPS and damage soaking, as well as being a high priority target.
And wow, you really changed race? Flattering Look at it like this though, if you play Terran against Protoss, you can get a first hand look at how Terran builds work, and then adjust your Protoss playstyle to dismantle it. I've learned that Stargate openings with Protoss are just as powerful, if not more powerful than Robo. In the current metagame, Terrans know how to deal with the usual Robo-Gate vs BioMediViking scenario, but now that mech is coming into play, Protoss is starting to have to adjust to a more Stargate favored playstyle, which is showing just how strong that can be.
|
Couldn't a protoss player just get an observer, proxy pylon close to your main base's ledge and then warp in units to devastate your main mineral line?
|
On February 17 2011 00:44 rapier7 wrote:
Couldn't a protoss player just get an observer, proxy pylon close to your main base's ledge and then warp in units to devastate your main mineral line?
Yes, but you're obviously not supposed to allow that to happen  That's why I always patrol a marine along the ledge of my base. Pylon power's range is the same as the marine's, so I can always shoot the pylon down. This way, there is no possible way for the Protoss to warp in units so long as I patrol.
|
On February 17 2011 00:58 Synystyr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 00:44 rapier7 wrote:
Couldn't a protoss player just get an observer, proxy pylon close to your main base's ledge and then warp in units to devastate your main mineral line? Yes, but you're obviously not supposed to allow that to happen That's why I always patrol a marine along the ledge of my base. Pylon power's range is the same as the marine's, so I can always shoot the pylon down. This way, there is no possible way for the Protoss to warp in units so long as I patrol.
Okay, so why not blink stalkers up there and then dominate the main mineral line?
|
On February 17 2011 01:34 rapier7 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 00:58 Synystyr wrote:On February 17 2011 00:44 rapier7 wrote:
Couldn't a protoss player just get an observer, proxy pylon close to your main base's ledge and then warp in units to devastate your main mineral line? Yes, but you're obviously not supposed to allow that to happen That's why I always patrol a marine along the ledge of my base. Pylon power's range is the same as the marine's, so I can always shoot the pylon down. This way, there is no possible way for the Protoss to warp in units so long as I patrol. Okay, so why not blink stalkers up there and then dominate the main mineral line?
I think Syn said that Blink Stalkers is probably the toughest Toss strats to deal with. But again, if Toss opts for quick Blink, then chances are he won't have a Robo for ob vision. Or if he does, it'll be a low Gateway count so unless he's pretty much all'inning on a Blink rush to succesfully work I think some good marine + scv shield micro should fend it off.
|
On February 17 2011 02:05 SecretA5DC wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 01:34 rapier7 wrote:On February 17 2011 00:58 Synystyr wrote:On February 17 2011 00:44 rapier7 wrote:
Couldn't a protoss player just get an observer, proxy pylon close to your main base's ledge and then warp in units to devastate your main mineral line? Yes, but you're obviously not supposed to allow that to happen That's why I always patrol a marine along the ledge of my base. Pylon power's range is the same as the marine's, so I can always shoot the pylon down. This way, there is no possible way for the Protoss to warp in units so long as I patrol. Okay, so why not blink stalkers up there and then dominate the main mineral line? I think Syn said that Blink Stalkers is probably the toughest Toss strats to deal with. But again, if Toss opts for quick Blink, then chances are he won't have a Robo for ob vision. Or if he does, it'll be a low Gateway count so unless he's pretty much all'inning on a Blink rush to succesfully work I think some good marine + scv shield micro should fend it off.
This. It's under the "Scenarios against other Various Protoss Builds" tab. It's certainly not easy, but the push happens just as the Thor is making. With good SCV repair and surround micro, it should be possible to hold off without too many casualties.
|
you know what i like most about thors and banshees and battlecruisers? They don't get destroyed by mass force fields! Man that has got to be the most annoying part of TvP.
|
On February 18 2011 07:57 Senorcuidado wrote:
you know what i like most about thors and banshees and battlecruisers? They don't get destroyed by mass force fields! Man that has got to be the most annoying part of TvP.
Haha oh yes, no having to worry about your army getting cut in half and losing because you can't run up a ramp :D Sentries are actually nearly useless vs air, since their DPS is mediocre and guardian shield really doesn't reduce enough damage from the Banshees since they hit so damn hard anyways xD
------
So, I've also learned how to deal with Stargate openings. I poke in to the Protoss' base with my first banshee to do some harass and scouting. Once I scout Stargate play, I immediately cut banshee production and throw down a Fusion. I bank all my money and pop out as many BCs + Yamato and then turtle until I have 4 BCs, heavy marine support and a sprinkling of banshee/viking, along with the two Thors from earlier. Yamato one shots Void rays and Phoenix do next to nothing against BCs. BCs also steal aggro from your banshees and tank a ton of damage. Marines also do well against stalkers and help with AA/obs sniping.
Here are a couple replays detail such play;
http://www.mediafire.com/?j0mcfd11df3g82v (Come from behind after Phoenix harass and losing nat)
http://www.mediafire.com/?3090soxtzcz4ig3 (7 BCs Yamatoing 7 Voids at once)
|
So I've just started using this build and I've lost trice (?) in a row vs early warpprism play (mostly 1base). I got marines patroling so i notice but his stalkers kill my partoling marine. That makes me pull more marines to snipe warpprism, but then im weak at front. Then he just rolls my bunkers.
I'm not a good player so help appreciated!
Thanks!
|
Same happened to me also today in tlopen ro2 , the protoss used warp prism with 4 zealots and then warping stakkers in my mineral...had to pull 1 bunker +some marines to fend it off with scvs also but he rolled my 4 bunkers at the nat choche(2 were empty) . I used the old version of the build without the thor...but it's mainly my fault as i did some mistakes before this 2 prone attack happened...guess need to practise it more
|
On February 19 2011 23:03 kusu wrote:
So I've just started using this build and I've lost trice (?) in a row vs early warpprism play (mostly 1base). I got marines patroling so i notice but his stalkers kill my partoling marine. That makes me pull more marines to snipe warpprism, but then im weak at front. Then he just rolls my bunkers.
I'm not a good player so help appreciated!
Thanks!
Warp Prism play can be very tricky because of the zealots. At the point of the Warp Prism drop, your Thor should be in the process of making. What you need to do is get a surround with your SCVs and pull two bunkers full of marines out to kill the army and have SCVs at the nat go to repair the bunkers in the front. You need only delay until your Thor arrives, and then you can do repair micro with it to kill the army. Warp Prism drop is usually a 1 Base play, so if you hold off the attack, you should still be at equal levels or higher of economy, and can come back quickly if the damage was too severe.
On February 20 2011 02:17 titan_tase wrote:
Same happened to me also today in tlopen ro2 , the protoss used warp prism with 4 zealots and then warping stakkers in my mineral...had to pull 1 bunker +some marines to fend it off with scvs also but he rolled my 4 bunkers at the nat choche(2 were empty) . I used the old version of the build without the thor...but it's mainly my fault as i did some mistakes before this 2 prone attack happened...guess need to practise it more
Same advice to you as the guy above basically You'll want to get the Thor out. It's extremely crucial in early game defense, sniping observers and to create an aura of deception that you are playing a Marine/Thor build and he'll make the wrong units to deal with your banshees.
Replays are always good to post guys! I can help much more if I can analyze the things that you did
|
Hey man, really appreciate all the effort you put into this build/thread! Have been stuck in mid-diamond for a while due now to my beyond crappy TvP and was really astonished when I first tried out your build. I'd been thinking no one would lemme get away with the FE and then just watch while the banshees go to town but I'll be damned, more often than not it actually works out=) Guess I can't vouch for the competence of my opponents but hey, they probably wouldn't vouch for mine either..
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
