EPTObsevers got cheaper
Phonix got quicker to produce
Vrs got + dmg vs massive (thor, and BCs)
Even SCV repairing get same priority is an obvious nerf to thors
[G] Synystyr's TvP Anti Colossus Build - Page 14
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dohgg
310 Posts
Obsevers got cheaper Phonix got quicker to produce Vrs got + dmg vs massive (thor, and BCs) Even SCV repairing get same priority is an obvious nerf to thors | ||
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Synystyr
United States1446 Posts
On February 08 2011 03:12 dohgg wrote: Have u all noticed that last patch is like a super nef for this build Obsevers got cheaper Phonix got quicker to produce Vrs got + dmg vs massive (thor, and BCs) Even SCV repairing get same priority is an obvious nerf to thors You forgot that hallucination has a faster research time so you scout better now as well. But yeah, obviously we've noticed. And it really hasn't affected this build that much regardless. It makes it so that the timing window the Protoss has to crank phoenixes out is more forgiving, but they still cost the same, so you can only afford so many at a time anyways, and they aren't cheap. The biggest thing is how good VRs are against BCs now...it makes it very difficult to transition into BCs if you scout stargate play, because a few void rays screws everything over. But overall, the build is still solid. It's not a "super nerf" like you said, but it does make it easier for a Protoss to respond. Definitely still a viable and powerful build nonetheless. | ||
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dohgg
310 Posts
More like 1 rax FE (in main) + bunker at choke and rush for quickest thor possible to secure natural. Cuz i feel like the 2 rax FE is a beat weak to secure ur natural cuz u stop production on more raxs and ur slow banshee tech might not hold big pressure, while 1 thor with SCVs + 5-6 marines can hold any pressure on the 7 min mark.. | ||
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Synystyr
United States1446 Posts
On February 08 2011 05:25 dohgg wrote: Synystyr, waht do u think about a lil diffrent opening for maps that u cant count on bunkers, and u will prefer the 2 rax FE. More like 1 rax FE (in main) + bunker at choke and rush for quickest thor possible to secure natural. Cuz i feel like the 2 rax FE is a beat weak to secure ur natural cuz u stop production on more raxs and ur slow banshee tech might not hold big pressure, while 1 thor with SCVs + 5-6 marines can hold any pressure on the 7 min mark.. Look under the "Applying Early Bio Pressure" tab in the OP. It shows what I do there. There are also a couple replays in the Replays tab demonstrating exactly what I do. On a 2 player map, I open with a 2 Marauder 1 Marine Conc shell rush with 2 Rax reinforcements to put early early pressure on while I expand behind that. I can win the game outright if the Toss tried to 1 Gate FE or tried to tech too quickly. Otherwise, they'll assume mass bio and it's what it'll look like when they poke in with their first obs. I'll still opt for raven first with my starport, deny scouting as best I can and then throw down my starports. On 4 player maps, I open 2 Rax Stim into expand, which gives me two options depending on what I scout. I either push right as stim finishes if the Toss gets greedy, or I sit back and defend with a mobile ground force against any early Gateway rushes while I tech to Starports again. Both of these are pretty solid openers in these situations and kind of point the Protoss in a direction that makes them think I'm going standard MMM play. The downsides are if my attacks are beaten convincingly, I can lose really early to a counter attack because my army is dead. | ||
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
In my experience FE only works vs Protoss if they leave you alone. | ||
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dohgg
310 Posts
On February 08 2011 06:23 Synystyr wrote: On a 2 player map, I open with a 2 Marauder 1 Marine Conc shell rush with 2 Rax reinforcements to put early early pressure on while I expand behind that. I can win the game outright if the Toss tried to 1 Gate FE or tried to tech too quickly. Otherwise, they'll assume mass bio and it's what it'll look like when they poke in with their first obs. I'll still opt for raven first with my starport, deny scouting as best I can and then throw down my starports. These early pushes r very strong and will work vs greedy toss, i also prefer to add 2 Scv for these pushes for a alil more power and the option of bunkering up. Ofcourse u wont be able to hold a swarm of probes, and i guess the dmg u'll do will be like 2-4 probes dying. But the thing is that u r making an army trade really early, as u r not gonna replanish these dead units as much as the toss will do on 4G or 3G robo, and 3G stargate (in case u scouted it) will demolish u very badly as u will be forced to cut the banshees and make vikings with a low rax unit count. If i m doing this 2 Rax FE into this such high tech, i'll be very very carefull with my poke. | ||
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RukKus
United States197 Posts
On February 08 2011 07:32 dohgg wrote: These early pushes r very strong and will work vs greedy toss, i also prefer to add 2 Scv for these pushes for a alil more power and the option of bunkering up. Ofcourse u wont be able to hold a swarm of probes, and i guess the dmg u'll do will be like 2-4 probes dying. But the thing is that u r making an army trade really early, as u r not gonna replanish these dead units as much as the toss will do on 4G or 3G robo, and 3G stargate (in case u scouted it) will demolish u very badly as u will be forced to cut the banshees and make vikings with a low rax unit count. If i m doing this 2 Rax FE into this such high tech, i'll be very very carefull with my poke. Spot on explanation of this sort of 2Rax early pressure. I do 2 Marauder, 1 Marine, 1 SCV at 5:25. Use the SCV to poke up the ramp and see if there are Sentry. If so, try to lure a FF (don't get any units trapped, perhaps SCV might get trapped but better that than Marauder). At that point you might retreat. However most games there are only 1 stalker and 1 Zealot, which I can kill both of with the Marauder/Marine. After that, I poke at pylons until he calls in more units. I have 2rax rallied to the opp base, but usually if Toss went 2-3 gate, he'll outswarm you. Pull back with only maybe an SCV lost, and you're ahead if you picked off a Zealot/Stalker. If he sends all of his probes after you, if you don't get surrounded you are VERY MUCH ahead as that was 100's of minerals of mining time lost! Bring your troops back, tech up to the Banshee build, and you're good! Opp will expect bio so he'll tech for that  | ||
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Darpa
Canada4413 Posts
On February 08 2011 06:33 MockHamill wrote: The build looks great but does not seem to work for me. I had 3 bunkers filled with marines at my Natural, the Protoss player just rolls in with 3 gate + void ray army, forcefield the bunkers so I cannot repair them and win the game. In my experience FE only works vs Protoss if they leave you alone. THis is my experience as well. However what I have done, is just build 2 bunkers out front, let them blow all their forcefields on them, and then I build 2 bunkers slightly back that are in range of all the zealots but cant be forcefielded at the same time. So basically a little square, with one extra bunker. (you will still have the same marine count, so you have to make sure to move them back into the 4th bunker instead of letting them die.) Ive also had some mild success with just planetaring my natural, it works best on LT or a map with a close natural, on Xel Naga or meta they might just walk on by. It makes my push come about 40 seconds later, but it sure helps to survive the intitial push (you save the minerals because you really only need to build 1 or 2 bunkers) | ||
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Synystyr
United States1446 Posts
On February 08 2011 09:38 Darpa wrote: THis is my experience as well. However what I have done, is just build 2 bunkers out front, let them blow all their forcefields on them, and then I build 2 bunkers slightly back that are in range of all the zealots but cant be forcefielded at the same time. So basically a little square, with one extra bunker. (you will still have the same marine count, so you have to make sure to move them back into the 4th bunker instead of letting them die.) Ive also had some mild success with just planetaring my natural, it works best on LT or a map with a close natural, on Xel Naga or meta they might just walk on by. It makes my push come about 40 seconds later, but it sure helps to survive the intitial push (you save the minerals because you really only need to build 1 or 2 bunkers) I've considered trying a Planetary Fortress at the nat on maps with wide open expos, but I've opted towards early bio instead because I like having mobile defence that I can counterattack with if the opportunity arises. On maps with closed naturals, a Planetary is completely unnecessary because of the 3 Bunker wall that serves the same purpose and still gives you the economic benefit of an Orbital. I actually played against someone who mass FFed the back of my bunkers to prevent repairs, but what turned out happening was that he needed many sentries to do this, so he didn't have the fire power to break down my bunkers before the marines inside killed too much. I'll post the replay after work. Anyways, I've never had any trouble FEing vs Protoss at all, and that's what I've been doing every game in this matchup. I've found any kind of 2 Rax FE is pretty simple to get away with, even against 4 Gates. You have defender's advantage and it's fairly easy to scout, so if you look for proxys and pick those off right away, you're in excellent shape. | ||
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pulzar
Canada8 Posts
On February 08 2011 22:23 Synystyr wrote: You have defender's advantage and it's fairly easy to scout, so if you look for proxys and pick those off right away, you're in excellent shape. Ok, this is maybe a silly question... but, how do you pick off the proxy pylons? Usually, protoss makes the pylon as they push with their force, so I don't really have any units to spare to scoot around his army and search for pylons, no? Thanks for the build, BTW. I've only had a chance to try it once tonight, as I kept rolling TvTs, but it worked like a charm. The bunkers scared him off of the early pressure, and he ended up with the usual colossi+gate death ball at the time of my push... the stuff that kills me every time... until now.  | ||
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JediGamer
United States656 Posts
On maps like shakuras this build can be weak, getting caught with a low marine count versus charged voids is deadly. The guide also does not establish the support units for the banshees, which is just as important as the build itself. | ||
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terran151
Canada103 Posts
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Blyadischa
419 Posts
On February 09 2011 13:29 FuSioN722 wrote: Good at the lower ranks, however with good forcefields and possibly phoenix's (8 banshees? toss will have seen the tech, phoenixes kill banshees at a cost effective value) any protoss above 2k masters can hold this off with ease. Especially considering you don't have a scouting tutorial for the bunker count (u dont always need 3, and you can make 2 and salvage one once u know what is going on). On maps like shakuras this build can be weak, getting caught with a low marine count versus charged voids is deadly. The guide also does not establish the support units for the banshees, which is just as important as the build itself. Phoenix is such a gas investment if you had enough to kill the banshees that you won't have a good amount of colossus or have teched to HT. Phoenix are also hit hard by the thors and marines, and the banshees can most likely take out 1-2 colossus before going down, and the thors and marines will just wipe out everything. | ||
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Synystyr
United States1446 Posts
On February 09 2011 13:13 pulzar wrote: Ok, this is maybe a silly question... but, how do you pick off the proxy pylons? Usually, protoss makes the pylon as they push with their force, so I don't really have any units to spare to scoot around his army and search for pylons, no? Thanks for the build, BTW. I've only had a chance to try it once tonight, as I kept rolling TvTs, but it worked like a charm. The bunkers scared him off of the early pressure, and he ended up with the usual colossi+gate death ball at the time of my push... the stuff that kills me every time... until now. I'll be honest, you can't always get the proxy pylon, because a smart Protoss will throw it down with a few units to guard it. There are some games you'll be able to look in the usual hiding places (Gold expo on LT, behind the grass in XNC, up a ramp in Metal etc.) and you'll be able to quickly take it out and deter the Protoss. Other times, it'll just end up built and you'll just have to pull some SCVs to your bunker to hold the push off, which shouldn't be a big deal anyways On February 09 2011 13:29 FuSioN722 wrote: Good at the lower ranks, however with good forcefields and possibly phoenix's (8 banshees? toss will have seen the tech, phoenixes kill banshees at a cost effective value) any protoss above 2k masters can hold this off with ease. Especially considering you don't have a scouting tutorial for the bunker count (u dont always need 3, and you can make 2 and salvage one once u know what is going on). On maps like shakuras this build can be weak, getting caught with a low marine count versus charged voids is deadly. The guide also does not establish the support units for the banshees, which is just as important as the build itself. Actually, you can deny scouting in a very efficient manner with this build. Thor + Raven finish before you put down your extra starports, so you can kill the observer, and then build the starports in the farthest corner of your base away from the Protoss so it has the least chance of being scouted. I'm also a 2500 pt Masters level player, and I've found i'm STILL crushing Protoss of my level and higher. No, you don't always need 3 bunkers, but an extra bunker doesn't affect how fast you'll tech or give you an extra 100 minerals you really need elsewhere. It's awesome to have a huge sense of security in the early game that lets you tech into a midgame quite easily. Shakuras is also one of my favorite maps to play this build on. The bunkers can be placed right at your ramp so you have both the high ground advantage and it's extremely close to your natural so your SCVs have a short travel distance. My marine count isn't low either. 3 bunkers full of marines + a few more if I scout stargate are more than enough for void rays, not to mention my Thors will be in the process of being built at that point. Also, I don't know what you mean by saying the banshees have no support units. Thor + Raven to snipe obs and to PDD so stalkers can't hit them, while having ~40 Stim + Shield marines for all purposes. On February 09 2011 14:22 terran151 wrote: I used to use a similar build to this in september and it brings back good memories. I would delay the orbital command and refineries to get the command center faster then double refinery and get an engineering bay to just have enough gas to make it a planitary fortress after floating it to the expo. I got well into mid diamond at the time using this on every map vs protoss. This guide's build is much better though :D. I don't see why it wouldnt work in masters league. Im 2.6k masters i bet i could win at least 50% of my tvp with it. I personally think the Orbital is a much better choice, since the 3 bunker wall acts the same as a Planetary, and you get the extra economic boost from MULEs. I'm glad you like the build though! It's really, really powerful at this stage in the metagame. | ||
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falcoiii
Canada43 Posts
Always snipe the obs in your base asap. When the raven is close to finishing, I bring 4 - 5 marines back to the starport and start walking around the base & natural. I sometimes build a turret between his base and the extra starports - try to make the turret look like it is protecting minerals or is on the base perimeter. When there are 4+ banshees, salvage the bunkers and start moving out. Rally all barracks and starports to the raven. I group everything on 1 hotkey. Attacking is preferred at a decisive point where opponent cannot backup without losing something - near the opponent's natural is good. Then the attack often goes 1 a [click] d [click] [tab] t [tab] c. This will send everything in, make a PDD, stim MM and cloak the banshees. Feel free to laugh as the opp attacks with collosi and/or FF your weak ground force. | ||
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Synystyr
United States1446 Posts
On February 09 2011 22:08 falcoiii wrote: This is such a strong build. It relies on the fact that protoss is going to prepare for MM. Always snipe the obs in your base asap. When the raven is close to finishing, I bring 4 - 5 marines back to the starport and start walking around the base & natural. I sometimes build a turret between his base and the extra starports - try to make the turret look like it is protecting minerals or is on the base perimeter. When there are 4+ banshees, salvage the bunkers and start moving out. Rally all barracks and starports to the raven. I group everything on 1 hotkey. Attacking is preferred at a decisive point where opponent cannot backup without losing something - near the opponent's natural is good. Then the attack often goes 1 a [click] d [click] [tab] t [tab] c. This will send everything in, make a PDD, stim MM and cloak the banshees. Feel free to laugh as the opp attacks with collosi and/or FF your weak ground force. Just about sums it up I do my attack like this:I group my ground on 1 and air on 2. 1 a [click] 2 a [click] d [click] d [click] [tab] c Then I go back to my ground force and snipe the observers. I usually push out when I have either 10+ banshees or enough energy for 2 PDDs. Where this build really stands out is denying scouting with Raven/Thor/Marine. Your opponent sees this unit combo and think it's mass Thor play, so they go heavy Immortal/Zealot with Stalker support. Guess how welll that does vs Banshees....:D | ||
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Wartortle
Australia504 Posts
Any tips to help me with this part of the build? | ||
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MrRicewife
Canada515 Posts
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Synystyr
United States1446 Posts
On February 11 2011 12:07 Jayzo wrote: Hi ive been practicing this build over and over against AI, and im note sure when to start making marines again. I guess this huge gas and mineral float when im getting out the thor and the raven which goes away when i have 4 ports making banshees. is this correct? it feels kinda funny just watching my minerals and gas ticking up and know that my army is smaller now but ill spend it all fairly fast when i get basnhee production going. Any tips to help me with this part of the build? You'll notice a build up of resources right after you begin cutting marines. To take care of that, you drop 2 refineries + factory + OC at the nat to take a little of that off. As soon as those are done, armory + starprort are next. You'll be somewhere around ~600 gas + mins so you'll feel like your macro is slipping, but as soon as you get raven + cloak + thor x2 and a 3rd racks, you're back in control and starving for cash  So yeah, you're doing it right The reason this happens is because you really don't need any more marines after you fill your bunkers because that'll all you'll need to hold pushes until your thors come out. I like to continue marine production as my 3rd racks finishes and two reactors go down, usually right after the Thors finish. On February 11 2011 12:14 MrRicewife wrote: Lol this is crazy! I tried my own shitty version of this against protoss before even knowing about this thread. It worked, but definitely not as well as yours. Masters here I come ^^ always lose to protoss, nothing else. Terran is back!! Haha good luck with it! Don't be shy to post back here for help/tips if things don't work out. GL and kill some Toss :D | ||
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sambour
Canada62 Posts
P.S. be wary of relying on wall-in against DT tech. The hallucinated pheonix spotting a high ground warp-in might catch you off guard, and a raven can't be in two places (bases) at once | ||
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