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On December 28 2010 17:29 Synystyr wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2010 12:56 Blyadischa wrote:
After using the opening expansions and doing variations of the build, I found that the build isn't safe enough (at least on the maps I play, I choose to play xelnaga caverns and delta quad, because I find backdoor rocks to be more of a problem than a non wall-in-able front with this build), and sacrificing early economy for some safety is worth it, because your economy will be crazy after it gets started up.
What I do now is 1 rax, cc, bunker, gas, 1 rax, 2 more bunkers, ebay, rax, then tech up, the gas on the expansions need to be taken earlier, and turret should be put between / a little ahead of 2 of the bunkers as soon as ebay is up.
This, although some what less, of a clean way to spend money and gets your tech up later, gets your bunkers filled up faster against 4gate (although your build already beats 4 gate rushes), gets you more marines against blink stalkers, and the turret helps against fast dt's and 3gate void ray rushes a lot, which are strategies that have beaten me before. That works just fine  I do a similar variation now where I go a quick 2 Rax with Tech+Reactor and do a 2Rax Stim Timing push with about 4 Marines + 4 Marauders while expanding behind that. I cut the bunkers unless I see they are going a 4 Gate or 3 Gate Robo push. This push can do a lot of damage and put you in a great position to transition to Banshee tech when they expect mass Bio and get Colossi. The risk is that if your push is held off without many losses, it leaves you open for a counter attack. I only use this build on maps with open naturals anyways....I have no problem holding off back door attacks ^_^ Good luck!
I was just thinking about trying that 2rax techlab/reactor push into expand into 4port banshee/marine since it combines
a) early pressure with a decent chance to win the game right there (esp. on lower levels)
b) banshee play which i just love vs toss (doing this off one base a lot)
c) economic play without being too allin like when I do a big banshee push off one base.
d) more safety against early toss pressure compared to only marines
i'm only high plat/low diamond level, so maybe you could help me out and post a brief build order for this style of play. i certainly dont need the exact food numbers, but it would help me a lot to know when to do the first push, when to build the fact und in which way i should get up the starports (all at once, one by one, etc) , when to take second/3rd/4th gas etc.etc. i guess a replay would do it for me, but I certainly appreciate any tip I can get :-) thx in advance
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I tried it out, was kind of cool. Weird map to try it on though.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-178447.jpg)
Comments suggestions?
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On December 19 2010 07:48 Synystyr wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2010 06:26 heyyouyesyou wrote:
Its not that your trying to deny scouting that would make your build cheesy its that if the protoss can scout it the effectiveness reduces greatly. As with any build. If I scout 3 Gate Robo, I can prep for a Gateway push with Immortals while teching to Vikings to deal with the impending Colossi. That greatly reduces the effectiveness of the push, as I know what to expect. Does that mean 3 Gate Robo is cheesy? Hell no! How about scanning a Zerg and seeing a Spire, so I make turrets and a Thor to deal with that. Muta = Cheese? Hell no! Are the Mutas gonna do damage? Most likely not. Same for this build. If they scout this, they need to react appropriately or die. The nice thing about this build is the timing window to prepare for the push is small, so I can almost always get away with pulling this off after killing the first obs. Not cheese ^_^
What i like to do is multiprong Banshee harass as i build up my Banshee count which effectively prevents them from making collosi.
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I've effectively gotten this build to beat 4 Gate and 3 Gate Robo pushes consistently now. It's a very simple change at the start.
10 Depot
12 Barracks
15 Orbital
15 Barracks
16 Depot
23 CC
This allows you double the marine production at the start to quickly fill those first three bunkers you make right after your two geysers finish. You need to have at least 9 SCVs mining at your natural during this so that you can quickly pull them off to repair once the attack starts. Take advantage of ledges and such with your unbunkered marines to defend better. After the bunkers are up, it's up to your personal scouting and judgment to decide whether you should tech or add another rax + addons. Either way, your goal should be to build up to 4 Starports, pump banshees, and expand with a Fusion Core when you push out with X amount of banshees + marines. 3 base Battlecruiser after Banshees is ridiculously hard for a Protoss to stop.
Here's a replay with that exact situation:
http://www.mediafire.com/?9rtp3z1m151yk4o
2 Base 4 Port Banshee into 3 Base BC against Phoenix Chargelot HT on GSL Tal'darim Altar
P.S. The new GSL map considerations are awesome. Try them out!
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Banshee is a pretty good counter to colossus, they also have cloak. So you have so many options and you are free to harass and get your econ up. Me being a protoss player back in the beta I figured out the hard way banshee were no joke =/
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So I suppose the question is: how much harder does the Phoenix buff make this to pull off?
Edit: I just watched the BC game. It strikes me, if you are on three base, you can do 2 BC and 2 Banshee constant production with marines underneath. You can then micro the banshees behind the BC if they get targeted so the BCs take the hits instead. I've noticed that pure BC + Banshee DPS support seems to work much better than BCs by themselves or banshees late game by themselves.
In addition, you could save yourself some money and diversify your army if you cranked hellions out of the factory instead of getting an additional barracks. You have plenty of marines for AA and their ability to tank stalker fire and kite-roast slowlot conga lines cannot be under estimated.
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On January 10 2011 13:29 Synystyr wrote:I've effectively gotten this build to beat 4 Gate and 3 Gate Robo pushes consistently now. It's a very simple change at the start. 10 Depot 12 Barracks 15 Orbital 15 Barracks 16 Depot 23 CC This allows you double the marine production at the start to quickly fill those first three bunkers you make right after your two geysers finish. You need to have at least 9 SCVs mining at your natural during this so that you can quickly pull them off to repair once the attack starts. Take advantage of ledges and such with your unbunkered marines to defend better. After the bunkers are up, it's up to your personal scouting and judgment to decide whether you should tech or add another rax + addons. Either way, your goal should be to build up to 4 Starports, pump banshees, and expand with a Fusion Core when you push out with X amount of banshees + marines. 3 base Battlecruiser after Banshees is ridiculously hard for a Protoss to stop. Here's a replay with that exact situation: http://www.mediafire.com/?9rtp3z1m151yk4o2 Base 4 Port Banshee into 3 Base BC against Phoenix Chargelot HT on GSL Tal'darim Altar P.S. The new GSL map considerations are awesome. Try them out! Have you tried a Reactor fast expand? The CC goes up about the same time, you only have 2 marines less midgame and you wont tip the Toss off with your lack of gas. It's what I do when I go for mass air at least.
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I've been trying a very similar build. Just tried it one game though, just for fun.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-180141.jpg)
2rax expand (tech/reactor) into double port banshee(also raven, for sure). This build works great. Don't mind the fact that I forgot siege mode the entire game btw. The banshees were just there not to be really part of my army, but more to do a LOT of harras because that is what I personally favor. Besides, he went high templars anyway so i just didnt make as much banshees anymore. Only made a few to kill tons of probes + any templars around.
Anyway, there's a ton of ways to do banshee builds so you can incorporate them into your army. I remember watching a Jinro vs TTOne match from MLG where jinro did a nice timing push with like 4 banshees, 4 vikings, 2 medics and a huge bio army(at 14 min, around 150 supply) that completely raped ttone. It was on Metalopolis close air position.
p.s. with the build you're doing I definitely think you're super viable to 3gate void ray, which a lot of top protosses have been doing recently. (or 2gate stargate expand)
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ah, this sounds pretty interesting, i'll give it a try sometime.
synystyr, have you tried having one or two vikings in there as well? since observers tend to lag behind moving toss armies, it might be easier to flank and snipe the observer that way, which gives your banshees free reign (and can probably keep your marine force intac for a counterpush)
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On January 11 2011 23:24 Mercury- wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2011 13:29 Synystyr wrote:I've effectively gotten this build to beat 4 Gate and 3 Gate Robo pushes consistently now. It's a very simple change at the start. 10 Depot 12 Barracks 15 Orbital 15 Barracks 16 Depot 23 CC This allows you double the marine production at the start to quickly fill those first three bunkers you make right after your two geysers finish. You need to have at least 9 SCVs mining at your natural during this so that you can quickly pull them off to repair once the attack starts. Take advantage of ledges and such with your unbunkered marines to defend better. After the bunkers are up, it's up to your personal scouting and judgment to decide whether you should tech or add another rax + addons. Either way, your goal should be to build up to 4 Starports, pump banshees, and expand with a Fusion Core when you push out with X amount of banshees + marines. 3 base Battlecruiser after Banshees is ridiculously hard for a Protoss to stop. Here's a replay with that exact situation: http://www.mediafire.com/?9rtp3z1m151yk4o2 Base 4 Port Banshee into 3 Base BC against Phoenix Chargelot HT on GSL Tal'darim Altar P.S. The new GSL map considerations are awesome. Try them out! Have you tried a Reactor fast expand? The CC goes up about the same time, you only have 2 marines less midgame and you wont tip the Toss off with your lack of gas. It's what I do when I go for mass air at least.
I don't like a reactor first just because I lose a few marines in the early game because of it, and if they 4 Gate, I need every marine I can get. I also don't mind them scouting the no-gas. I puts pressure on them to either attack me or expand, and honestly both favor me. Expand allows to me to tech safely while an early attack is easily repelled by bunkers + scvs + marines.
On January 12 2011 03:39 n3mo wrote:
ah, this sounds pretty interesting, i'll give it a try sometime.
synystyr, have you tried having one or two vikings in there as well? since observers tend to lag behind moving toss armies, it might be easier to flank and snipe the observer that way, which gives your banshees free reign (and can probably keep your marine force intac for a counterpush)
Adding a couple vikings does snipe the obs well, but it cuts into banshees a lot more than you'd think...I prefer controlling my marines to kill them. It's more of a preference thing. I'd rather just have a lot more banshees just in case they snipe my vikings quickly.
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![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-180681.jpg)
very fun. I got idea from someone to play it out like human vs ud in wc3(except sc2 works out better because enemy can't clear out all the creeps to get ahead) just spam bunker/pf/turrets and there isn't much toss can do until you get bc. tvp with little to no effort at all.
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yea the early game vunerability seems way to high. I guess if you have great micro and know 100% what to do against 4 gate pressure that you will be ok. But the current TvP meta seems to be going more towards the 1 Rax FE, espececially on big maps. But as a Random i gotta say that chargelots will you break down the bunkers lol.
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On January 15 2011 03:50 Ponyo wrote:
yea the early game vunerability seems way to high. I guess if you have great micro and know 100% what to do against 4 gate pressure that you will be ok. But the current TvP meta seems to be going more towards the 1 Rax FE, espececially on big maps. But as a Random i gotta say that chargelots will you break down the bunkers lol.
Knowing what to do is obviously key to the build....like it is in every aspect of the game ~_~
4 Gate is extremely easy to scout, or at least early pressure is. Simply check CBs with your scouting SCV. Lotsa energy means an early push, so you're prepared mentally for it. The build order is sound enough that you don't have to change it to deal with a 4 gate. You have three bunkers filled with marines + a few spare when a 4 gate arrives. Simply have 9-10 SCVs at your nat on a control group with auto repair on and pull them off as soon as you see the attack. Simple.
And chargelots? Like a chargelot rush? or mid game ones. Because chargelot rush loses to just about every other opener. 2 port banshee or even 1 port banshee wins against it....mid game you'll have banshees as well.....chargelots are not a threat =S
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Just tried this build on the ladder - it rocks.
Massed 8 banshees, 1 raven and a ton of marines - sniped an observer, scanned his army at the natural - didn't see another observer so pushed in ftw against heavy stalker with some zealots and sentries. Cleaned up his base with 7 banshees, a handful of marines and the Raven. The PDD is priceless.
My variation does not use a reactor - 2 rax FE with no gas into 5 barracks - 4 naked 1 tech lab for combat shields.
Question is where to put 3 bunkers for each map? Some are obvious where there is a second ramp (steppes, plateau) or choke (lost temple, blistering sands) I was on Metalopolis and just stuck them right beside the CC, thankfully nothing more than a poke came in.
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On January 15 2011 14:43 falcoiii wrote:
Just tried this build on the ladder - it rocks.
Massed 8 banshees, 1 raven and a ton of marines - sniped an observer, scanned his army at the natural - didn't see another observer so pushed in ftw against heavy stalker with some zealots and sentries. Cleaned up his base with 7 banshees, a handful of marines and the Raven. The PDD is priceless.
My variation does not use a reactor - 2 rax FE with no gas into 5 barracks - 4 naked 1 tech lab for combat shields.
Question is where to put 3 bunkers for each map? Some are obvious where there is a second ramp (steppes, plateau) or choke (lost temple, blistering sands) I was on Metalopolis and just stuck them right beside the CC, thankfully nothing more than a poke came in.
On maps where where you don't have a closed off natural, such as Metal or Xel'naga, I don't go with the bunkers. Instead, I go for a quick stim timing push with about 4 marines and 4 marauders and try and do some early damage. It's much riskier and a little more difficult to pull off, but if you manage to do a little damage and not lose your raiding party, they'll be preparing for a mass bio transition and go robo. That's when you can tech to starport and catch them with their pants down ^.-
If you feel you must bunker up on those wide maps, then keep them close to CC to protect the mineral lines.
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As a protoss player, this build is really hard to beat...very micro intensive on the Protoss end but Chargelots/Phoenixes do counter this a bit...best advice is to refuse scouting (observer) and you should be fine
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A quick update....the best way to open with this build is no longer a 1 Rax FE, but a 2 Rax FE with bunkers, simply because dealing with strong, early pressure is too difficult to deal with when you only have one Barracks pumping marines out. Thank you to everyone who pointed this out.
As a reference,
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=185963
A bunker opener like this works wonders in the early game and lets you tech into an extremely powerful midgame with the best lategame option for Terran vs Protoss.
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After playing and winning the Giantbomb Community Tournament, I decided this thread really needed to be brought up to current times.
I just updated the ENTIRE OP with a whole new perspective on this build. The build is 3x more solid than it used to be, I've added a ton of new replays and revamped the entire build order. Please leave feedback on what you think of the changes!
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Have you had success with this build against people who know it is coming ahead of time (Ex. practice partners)?
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On February 02 2011 11:45 micjmac wrote:
Have you had success with this build against people who know it is coming ahead of time (Ex. practice partners)?
Yep, I've had a few practice partners go fast phoenix to try and stop the initial banshee push but the two thors really make a big difference against them. I won Giantbomb using this build almost exclusively, so everyone knew about it by the end but still couldn't hold the push off. Watch the live cast in the Replay section from JP McDaniel.
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EPT
