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I'd like to bump this thread, because this TVP build can work wonders. I 've tried every other strategy involving bio + medivac or mech(which fails) and other gimmicky stuff.
I haven't exactly seen your replays, but Azzur's one, he has a similar thread like this.
It's the starport spam build. Late game transitions when on 3 base is to add BCs.
Spread out the banshee's against storm and win the air fight by adding vikings. Play by complete air domination. If you can win the air fight you can win the game. Spam vikings and marines to take out phoenix and go for special timing with raven PDD, and win. Banshee spam ftw. It's most likely blizzard intended for this build to work (starport spam) because any factory or rax builds have a use by date as they don't scale and not worth the dps and mobility. siege tanks ,hellions and thors are too easily countered/
If protoss love ground domination give it to them you play by air and mass cloak banshee.
Probably the most promising build so far.
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I think I'm just pulling this build off wrong. I've palyed a few more games against protoss, and I'm having a bit of trouble. My marines die instantly to HTs and that leaves banshees to get torn apart by stalkers. I've gone back to my marine marauder ghost timing push.
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I think the only that could stop this is a quick expo into ht's.
It seems pretty ridiculous.
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On December 13 2010 21:40 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2010 08:35 Synystyr wrote:
One of the nicer things about having three bunkers is that it can be deceptive. How are you to know they're not fully stacked? The only thing you need to see is that no Marauder shells are coming out of the Bunkers to know you can break it pretty easily. Besides that, you could just poke in with one Zealot and see if all the bunkers are firing and how much damage it takes. Also 300 Minerals in Bunkers and 400 in expo + saturation (because why else would you have put the bunkers at natural choke) means you can't really have 15 Marines inside and behind the wall. Given a minimum of game sense, the Protoss has plenty of information telling him it's perfectly safe (and even a fantastic opportunity) to attack. SCV repair is negated by Forcefields. Even without FFs I'm pretty sure that 4 Gate army (6 Stalkers 4 Zealots 3 Sentires iirc) could still get past just by sniping SCVs as they come. All you had at the time was 7 Marines in Bunkers and 8th on his way... that's an extremely uneven battle, even with Bunkers, repairs and everything. He wouldn't have lost more than 4 of his units to clear it out and nothing you had behind the wall was ready to deal with what he would have left. It's one thing to rely on deception, and seeing what those players did I can see it apparently works often =/. It's a whole different thing to hope those Bunkers can actually defend against any reasonable Protoss attack. If the other player realizes he can commit to an attack, it's an inevitable gg.
This is quite true to be perfectly honest. So far, deception has let me stay in the game for quite a while. It's still menacing to see three bunkers being repaired. Most Protoss see that and back out, not really knowing exactly what they expect to see behind that wall. However, as I play more higher level players, I'll need more than that. As I said, I think a 2 Rax FE with marauders would be much safer, and would easily hold a 4Gate push like that. Crushing the early attack will give me a clear advantage into the midgame where I can tech to banshees with ease and win the game that way. I'll experiment with this play and post replays and update when done. Thanks a lot sir!
On December 14 2010 02:52 snrcrackles wrote:
I think I'm just pulling this build off wrong. I've palyed a few more games against protoss, and I'm having a bit of trouble. My marines die instantly to HTs and that leaves banshees to get torn apart by stalkers. I've gone back to my marine marauder ghost timing push.
Have you watched any of the replays? It sounds like you may have trouble with the timing push if he's getting templars out against you. Can you post a replay? Maybe I can help you out if I see how you play ^_^
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Synystyr I think I owe you an apology. I have revitalized my TvP, and now the matchup at 2500 which I was most afraid of is no more. I have slightly modified your build, I open 2 naked rax FE into 2-3 bunkers map dependent throw down a ton of gas, use my factory for scouting goodness and get a bunch of starports. Open up with a raven, switch to banshees and the key is to add a few vikings! Because you guessed it, you gotta 1 - out produce any phenoixes and 2 - snipe those obs! Since I have become an obs sniper I have been able to beat protoss. Can't beat those collosus? Just don't fight them. Harass the base, force stalkers, snipe stalkers, go harass the expansion. It works like a charm. Great stuff.
Void ray opening? No problem tons of extra marines around, Immortal gateway push, 3 bunkers plus extra marines and the first banshee or two can hold it, phenoixes? lots of marines around but be careful with those banshees. The great thing is, once you get to 3tech lab and a reactor starport, if they try to put all their gas into pheonixes, they just dont have the infrastructure to keep up and your well positioned to pump out 5 vikings at a time, no problem
HT's...well HTs seem to be the biggest problem, you really have to send in your vikings ahead and make sure you snipe those obs or all your banshees get feedbacked and you lose, but really not very many protoss are opening straight into HT, and once you are doing this build to them they will be spending all their gas on more stalkers and obs.
http://topreplays.com/Replays/Details/3611/Lostcause_vs_Arterian
Me vs 2400 toss
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On December 15 2010 15:39 statikg wrote:Synystyr I think I owe you an apology. I have revitalized my TvP, and now the matchup at 2500 which I was most afraid of is no more. I have slightly modified your build, I open 2 naked rax FE into 2-3 bunkers map dependent throw down a ton of gas, use my factory for scouting goodness and get a bunch of starports. Open up with a raven, switch to banshees and the key is to add a few vikings! Because you guessed it, you gotta 1 - out produce any phenoixes and 2 - snipe those obs! Since I have become an obs sniper I have been able to beat protoss. Can't beat those collosus? Just don't fight them. Harass the base, force stalkers, snipe stalkers, go harass the expansion. It works like a charm. Great stuff. Void ray opening? No problem tons of extra marines around, Immortal gateway push, 3 bunkers plus extra marines and the first banshee or two can hold it, phenoixes? lots of marines around but be careful with those banshees. The great thing is, once you get to 3tech lab and a reactor starport, if they try to put all their gas into pheonixes, they just dont have the infrastructure to keep up and your well positioned to pump out 5 vikings at a time, no problem HT's...well HTs seem to be the biggest problem, you really have to send in your vikings ahead and make sure you snipe those obs or all your banshees get feedbacked and you lose, but really not very many protoss are opening straight into HT, and once you are doing this build to them they will be spending all their gas on more stalkers and obs. http://topreplays.com/Replays/Details/3611/Lostcause_vs_ArterianMe vs 2400 toss
I'm glad you were able to pick it up! I'm a firm believer that the only way to beat a Protoss in the mid to late game is to go air. Terran Air is superior to anything a Protoss can throw at you. Nothing is better than sniping the obs, leaving your cloaked banshees to wreak havoc =]
It's very easy to adapt to what your opponent has with what you have. Good scouting is vital and it's also very important to make sure you have the forces to defend any early pushes. I've started leaning towards a 2 Rax + Tech/Reactor expand for a large bio force + bunkers to defend my expansion. This opening is very solid and if you scout your opponent being very greedy, you can even attack and punish him. As long as you get those 4 starports up and running, you're in good shape!
I've found that their just aren't enough HTs around to feedback ALL of your banshees, and even then, banshees do just fine uncloaked as well. Storm can be an issue if your banshees are stacked, so just keep them spread when you spot templars and use your marines as bait. And like you said, the response to this build are other very gas intensive units that leave them starving to produce HTs. Thanks for using the build and I'll be checking that replay out later 
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Also, one thing about this build is that many people don't realise that the opening is really entirely up to you as long as you can transition to terran air in the midgame (i.e. don't open 3-rax). If you feel that you can't hold your expo with 1-rax FE, you can open 1-1-1 or 2-rax FE and still transition to the build.
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On December 16 2010 03:33 Azzur wrote:
Also, one thing about this build is that many people don't realise that the opening is really entirely up to you as long as you can transition to terran air in the midgame (i.e. don't open 3-rax). If you feel that you can't hold your expo with 1-rax FE, you can open 1-1-1 or 2-rax FE and still transition to the build.
QFT
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I feel really strongly that you cannot hold with a 1rax FE against a good toss UNLESS he is also doing a 1-2gate FE. I really like the no gas 2naked rax opening because it really lets you get a really fast expansion WITH a strong force of marines which are effective at holding every type of opening protoss attack until collosus by which point I would certainly hope you have some air.
One base toss are just so effective at busting Terran defences that I don't think 1rax gives you enough marines, especially if you have to split your forces to deal with void ray harass with a supporting gateway force at the front. especially now that MC showed all the upper level toss how to defeat bunkers without immortals  ... (immortals just straight up own bunkers but luckily they are not effective against the mass marines you can put out with a 2rax FE).
You are certainly free to open techlab/reactor which I would call the standard PvT opening allowing for pressure against a greedy toss while allowing you to still expand fairly quickly, but I think it really slows down and reduces the power behind your build -> FE into mass air production, because you have to get early gas and spend alot of it on add-ons and mauarders, getting even that one refinery and putting 3 scvs takes a major cut out of the minerals you could have, it may not be obvious but at the point int the game when you only have about 12 scvs its actually a big deal.
I would be concerned that it is giving the protoss to much time to react to what your up to, they could get alot more phenoxies, more observers, more stalkers, and at least at the beginning its pretty key to be able to harass and pick off small stalker forces and as much random stuff as you can. Taking down the robotics facility (only 900hp) is soooo helpful in this build once you have enough banshees to do so. Since nexuses have such ridiculous HP these days its better to go after tech structures unless you have a ridiculous number of banshees.
Another big concern for me remains, warp prism harass, this isn't really integrated into 95% of protoss play, but those few who have done so...it just sucks, its really hard to deal with potentially 8 unit drop in the back of your base with pure marines, but i guess its a big commitment for the protoss as well.
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You could pop out a single viking to shoot down a warp prism.
I think that would probably discourage that if P sees both a viking and a Raven while not being too suspicious.
I'd be more worried about obs + pylon warp in on delta quad and jungle bass.
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Well warp prism harass comes before you have vikings with a FE (i almost always pop out a raven and a couple banshees first to defend against a possible big attack around this point), also on delta quadrant if you FE your probably going to take your outside expansion first which blocks off that pylon spot.
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I thought that spot was elsewhere, silly me.
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These replays only prove that you were better then your opponents. They played very weak games. In deltra quadrant that guy actually managed to lose 12+ marines without killing a single one of your units. His marines were literally running around like chickens with their heads cut off in random directions and doing as little as possible. In scrap station, if he just built a single bunker behind his supply depots, your early pressure was completely nullified. I think that I probably could have held your pressure in both games without a bunker with some simple step micro and having more marines/actually keeping my marines in a ball since I prefer to open 12/14rax into constant marines.
You can't shoot down a build based on some really weak examples like these.
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On December 16 2010 06:58 statikg wrote:
These replays only prove that you were better then your opponents. They played very weak games. In deltra quadrant that guy actually managed to lose 12+ marines without killing a single one of your units. His marines were literally running around like chickens with their heads cut off in random directions and doing as little as possible. In scrap station, if he just built a single bunker behind his supply depots, your early pressure was completely nullified. I think that I probably could have held your pressure in both games without a bunker with some simple step micro and having more marines/actually keeping my marines in a ball since I prefer to open 12/14rax into constant marines.
You can't shoot down a build based on some really weak examples like these.
I would be the first to say they all played bad starting with the fact that saw 2 gateways and still tried to FE. However, for the common T player on TL who wants to try something new and is at the 2100-2300 level North America, to avoid disappointment they need to be aware of what mistakes can be made that make an otherwise practical build seem like something to be avoided. From my PvT experience, any sort of FE by the Terran cannot be held by the type of pressure I bring maybe because they aren't good enough. This is especially true if the build order calls for a rax at 12, and the next one at 38 (which is just ludicrous). For the top players out there, of course they can manage so much more in less time, but I don't think this thread is aimed at those top players. Thanks for the analysis though!
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Do you have a rep of you holding some sort of crazy pressure with a 2 rax FE?
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Truthfully I find that as I get further up the ranks protoss are less and less apt to try to one base me. I haven't encountered a 2gate opening in a long time, but I have held off 3gate robo before with no problems. Also 2 gate void rays. I have only been actively using this build for a couple days actually so I havn't run into a 4gate example yet but I would be surprised if it gave me more trouble then a 3gate robo (as the immortals make repairing bunkers really difficult). However I suppose if one was four gating with excellent sentry use (they would probably need 2 gas delaying the attack a bit) and they used forcefields to prevent me from supporting/repairing my bunkers, then they might be able to break me. I'm not sure though because then they would have come later (need 2gas) and have less stalkers and my marines behind the forcefields could engage if there were alot of zealots. Thats pure theory craft however.
I imagine a well executed 2gate pressure would be able to contain me in my base, but what does the protoss do from there? Being contained hurts me to some degree because I am stuck in my base with an extra OC, but the amount of gas the protoss put into the contain puts him behind me on tech (I put up my refiners shortly after I drop my second CC) and also behind me on economy due to extra OC production, and because he used his crono boosts on warpgate, early pressure instead of probes. I imagine he would expand behind his contain, but he would be hard pressed to do so while maintaining the necessary units to keep me from busting out AND getting an observer that he is going to need, AND remember, I am still VERY WELL set up to do a slightly delayed polt timing attack which would probably end up crushing a protoss with this opening even if he doesnt expand as collosus would come too late (this is almost certainly how I would respond). Anyway, pure theorycraft, I'm sure that is the approximate reason why you don't see much 2gate pressure in high level starcraft though.
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Yeah that's true, maybe 2 gate pressure is obsolete compared to the better openings there are, but I think it is viable still. If, for instance, 2 gate pressure is considered to be outdated and T players are used to "better" openings by the P player, then they might find themselves unprepared for it when it comes. That's my hope in using it.
My 2 gate pressure is 1 zeal, 2 stalkers, 2 zealots and then tech while I poke. Obviously I don't suicide, but I look for openings and chances to bait out anti air units because I usually go VR against Terran. My sequence is usually 2 gate pressure to VR stargate, to sentry contain and expand with cannons, to high templar/immortal. This game plan has been pretty sound for me against the Terrans I've faced, but as soon as it ceases to work with regularity, I will most likely change it!
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I would say that that is a pretty decent opening in fact, especially if you can get your voidrays charged off rocks or a depot or something before the engagement, it just doesnt work very well against mass marines, because they counter voidrays pretty hard and they do reasonably against gateway.
I'm sure you also probably often do damage against a greedy teching terran with no wall, however IMO the metagame is swinging back towards walling against protoss because of increase in DT usage. I get so upset when I get DT rushed (because I usually expect proxy voidrays when I see missing tech), and its actually started happening to me with some regularity for some reason recently so thats why I'm walling again, although it does make me weaker against void rays charging on my wall, I think its worth it because I can just liftoff my rax and abandon my supply depots which is a much cheaper loss then what happens when a couple unexpected dts show up.
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Yeah I was gonna say if you wall off it's easier to harass and precharge voidrays unless the bunker is part of the wall, and even then there is probably an opening to precharge. The DT rush thing is popular because I know I can expand behind roaming Dark Templars and Terrans usually have to get a Raven to be able to move out of their base. If I were to suggest something from a P perspective, it would be to take the extra time and minerals to put up a turret at your wall off and you will avoid both dangers pretty well
I'm not sure if it is in my replays but when I add sentries into my unit composition, marines don't cut it in a 3gate/Void Ray engagement cause I focus fire the marines and micro the rays out of range. This initial battle is usually won and then the Terran is too far behind to recover. In fact, a few games I skip stalkers altogether and have like 3 sentries, 2 rays, and like 7-8 zealots
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EPT
